 I understand that it's been a long process here. All right, welcome, everybody. Thank you, those of you that are here with us at the Browlborough Museum, and thank you, those of you who are with us from your homes or wherever you are, to HowlRound, thank you to HowlRound for including us in your amazing platform. We are celebrating Sanglass's 40th anniversary. This is our 11th Puppets in the Green Mountains Festival. Come on in. And it's just been such a thrill. It's been such a thrill to have the guest artists here, to have these conversations that partner the shows. So our audiences are experiencing these performances from all over the world, but also having a chance to really dig in deeper into the work and build bridges between things that are happening here in this community as well. So I'm very excited about today. Just to announce a few things before we begin, for those of you that are in the room, if you haven't gotten your Sanglass merch yet, please do so at the next show. There's still tickets left for tonight's shows, Body Concert and Daffa Theater at the U Theater and up at Hilltop. So you can see our ticket counter over there if you want to get your last minute tickets or also for tomorrow. Kristal Puppeteers here will be doing final performance on Sunday at five o'clock at the Impanni behind the Putney Inn. It's part of next stage's Bandwagon series. So we hope you'll all come out and join us for the, it'll be the final show of the festival. And I just want to take a moment to thank our funders. I want to thank the Brattle Bar Museum for letting us set up our panels in here and giving us such huggable things in the lobby. If you haven't come to one of the pods yet, please do. They're very uncomfortable. And I want to thank the Bay and Paul Foundation, the Brattle Bar of Kuhl Co-op Roundup for Change Program, which is community members rounding up to support their local puppet theater and other community organizations. The Clues Fund, the Price Chopper Gulab Foundation, the Thomas Thompson Trust, the Two West Foundations, the Vermont Humanities Council, Chroma Technologies, the Wyndham Foundation. And if you have taken a same class program for the festival, please look at the businesses that chose to advertise with us and support the festival. Go do business with them, thank them. And then you'll also see a little section of recognition of certain variety of programs and organizations in our community that are doing really amazing work in shifting resources and in really driving forward a healthier, more sustainable community. So one of those is sitting behind me on this panel and you'll hear from them momentarily. But I encourage you to look at the whole list in there and really look them up, do some research, and you're very lucky to get the privilege of hearing it straight from the source today. So thank you all so much for being here with us. And I'm gonna turn it over to our facilitator, Lath, who comes to us through, well, for us through the Root Social Justice Center Youth for Change program. And we're excited to be working together. So Lath, over to you. Yeah, I'm still new to this, so I'm a bit nervous starting out to get the ball rolling. This, each panel, it has been based on like a specific topic or a group of topics. That I'm going to read out. This, the Lath's panel is based on like growing, sorry, never, I'm just gonna continue this, I'm getting really nervous, sorry. This panel is discussing how we shift resources and education and power within communities and how art and food, specifically, are doorways into important change and healing. And as the world is infected by the pandemic and climate change and economic inequities, how do arts and social initiatives work together and reach diverse populations and empower local voices? Now, I had interviews with both groups that I'm going to like introduce themselves in a second. And I, me and Gabriel, who's sitting over there, creative producer, very new as well. How we've made a series of questions to ask you, and we're going to ask you those questions and then you'll have some time to ask some questions amongst yourselves and then I'll give y'all some time to ask some questions. So I'm going to have you start putting on this box. Can you introduce yourselves? Would you like to start with an introduction as an individual or as a collectivist, as you do? You can do that. Can you speak up? Yeah, I'll definitely try and speak up. I apologize, I tend to speak softly. How should I, should I take individual or collectivist? You can do that. So I'm Naomi and I am one of the co-founders and co-directors of Sousa Community Farm along with Amber here. I'm the child of Lynn and Penelope. I'm the grandchild of Ida and John Henry. I'm the great grandchild of Jesse Cobbins and Cornelia Martin. And I'm the seven times great grandchild of Jenny Cobbins who was born on a tobacco plantation in Virginia. And I consider myself a legacy farmer, not in the way that I've inherited anything as far as land or possessions go, but that I've inherited a legacy of connection to land and place. And so much of that connection is the heart of the work that we do at Sousa where it's really about creating space for people to come together and healing on land. So we heal not only ourselves and each other, but with the land itself. My name is Amber Arnold and I am also one of the co-founders and collaborative directors of Sousa Community Farm. And I am very passionate about building community about creating spaces for black and brown people to have reclaimed access to their imaginations and to their lineages and to their practices and for us to be intentionally building safe and thriving nourishing multiracial communities so that we can be building these cultures of liberation together. And that's what we do at Sousa. Hello, everyone, my name is Fidelis Kiyalo. I'm the co-founder of Christophe Papetiers with my colleague. I've been doing puppetry for the last 30 years in Kenya, born and raised in Kenya. We've been using puppets for education mostly to address most issues in the community, health, education, governance, anything that really affects the community. And that's what has been our work, what's since. Thank you. I'm Diabo, I was just trying to work for Hello. My name is Crispin Wachideo. As Fidelis said, I'm a Papetier, co-founder of Christophe Papetiers, and I've known him since 95, I would say, and we've been working together using theater as a tool for community development, as a tool for community change, and improving the dialogue, and basically helping the community to understand how they can live with one another in peace and cohesion. Yeah, and that's been the journey so far. So we started in a little town in Kenya, at the coastal city, and now we're here, somewhere in Rattleabarro. Yeah. The journey continues. Thank you. Okay, so then starting with questions, I'm gonna ask you a question that relates to both of you in both groups in some way. Crystal, your show that I missed surrounded the loss of, it was a cocktail, it surrounded the loss of water in an area in the public land, like it came out of the desert land, and it caused like the ecosystem, the society of the animals that are living there to slowly become desperate for food and water, and a very brave monkey decided to leave his home and try to find water, but he starts and dies in the process, but that's not the end, because he's come back to life right now. She's one of our... Sorry. It has a much heavier ending than just he starts and dies, oh no, that's like the beginning. But Naomi and Amber, how do you and your organization relate with land and resources and the loss and pleaded access to land and resources in real life? And how do you think that this story specifically could pertain to the animals? Yes. Do you want us to go? I think you can drop by there. Maybe just to talk about the story of which my colleague was also talking about. The story, first, is our focus, but it has so much relation in what is happening right now. As we are speaking right now in Kenya, we have 10 counties which are going under, there's so much drought happening right now as we're speaking. So that is a problem that has been happening. And we thought this is a story which has a relation to what is happening to our country for many years. And we thought addressing this issue would give a better picture of not seeing pictures of a very slim child taking, you know, and be shown this is drought. We wanted to put it in a different way. Talking about the drought, but not showing those silly pictures of kids don't have food. So these people have seen that many times, they've just become like, right? And that is a weird way of showing an immutable drought. So we've used this show to tell such kind of issues. Although, of course, there's another issue with migration. I think, Chris, you know more about it in the show. Exactly. Yeah, that's also true in the story, although we don't also like put it in your face that, yeah, this is about migration. We have tried to handle that aspect of every human being desires or wants to have a better life. When things really get tough, then there's that need to move to a better place where you can at least have a chance of survival. And we see that clearly in the story. Of course, politically, there are issues about where that's acceptable, who is regular or irregular or legal or legal migrant and all that kind of labels that we have tagged. But again, we leave it to the audience to deal with these issues because they are real, they are here with us, and we try to get that from the folk tale and then incorporate some of these contemporary topics that are happening now to tell the story. Yeah, I think one of the things in relation to that that we've wore a lot on Tsutsu's idea of community and even through the Great Migration, like for one example, many black people migrated, or some black people migrated to Detroit because this was a place where there was thought to be access to jobs and all of these things for people to find. And in Detroit, there was an area that was called Black Bottom, and a lot of indigenous people called it the sand because of the fertile soils and when water would run down this way, it would create more of that soil. This was also historically became a black neighborhood, which was right near Paradise Valley, which also became a historic place for black people where there was black banks and black real estate places and like a thriving black economy and a lot of that came out of the numbers game. So there was policy in the numbers game and the numbers game had originated for black people by black people. And this was when the lottery was illegal and the numbers game allowed black people to invest in businesses, invest in banks to really build their community and to build this economy when the government and all of these spaces would not allow that to happen. And through the numbers game, like families were able to bet and to make money and could make like $5, which could feed a community, a group of people for a whole week. And eventually what happened was the government decided to build a freeway over Paradise Valley, which was this really important and like thriving black area intentionally and this pushed out over 100,000 black families from this area and eventually the numbers men they were called who really kind of like were supporting this community and bringing these things to life. Ended up, the government ended up getting them to teach them about this lottery and the numbers game and that eventually kind of like led to that being capitalized on through the government. But I think if we think about being able to reclaim these stories and to be able to have access to storytelling and to understanding our culture and to understanding the ways that our communities have been caring for each other when they have been slated for extinction, the ways that our people have used, community determination and all of these practices that are rooted far beyond us being internal island, but are rooted in our ancestry and the diaspora and from where we came from in Africa where community was so central to the ways that we cared for each other. And so I think that hearing and watching the play and seeing this like powerful way of storytelling and how we remember and remind ourselves of what is happening and the way that migration and history and community all come together in this convolution helps us to remember how we can move forward and how we can continue to build community in those same ways to kind of like come back into reclaim our relationship with earth and with each other and our ability to shift that narrative and also just to say that two days ago the Biden administration had announced kind of like putting $150 million into kind of like that area because that freeway that was over Paradise Valley has been deteriorating and actually rebuilding that community but knowing this history of black people prior to that is deeply important because who gets to tell the story now whose buildings will be built in that area that's being revitalized but by having access to our stories in our past and how these things have happened allows us to kind of like collectively shape our resilience and our liberation. Yeah, I think that one of the things that really came to me when we were asking the question and thinking about it in relationship to the play which I watched this morning on YouTube I did not recognize that the monkey was reanimated so I'm happy to hear that he comes back to life was just thinking about how like without diminishing like the current effects of climate change that you're experiencing firsthand acknowledging that like there's a global climate crisis and that being able to tell these stories is it's a way of bringing awareness of the impacts of these challenges to everyone. So here in Vermont, maybe we're experiencing the effects a little bit less like this summer might be a different story since we've had so much drought this summer but last year there was so much water there was so much rain, there was too much rain and so, you know, and like over the past few years or even decades there have been people including climate change deniers who have been buying up acres and acres and acres of Vermont land because they know as the global climate shifts that Vermont people have places that still has water and so one of the things that Susie that we've talked about in preparation for climate migration and welcoming people who are deeply impacted by the effects of climate change and will find themselves without resources and find themselves without water is that we can create space here for people to have like a cultural easement to have space for people who are impacted by climate migration to be here and to have home here, to call here home. And so one of the things we've been talking about is how to create that cultural climate migration easement to make sure that everyone has access to the resources that we still have and be able to utilize storytelling to help people understand why it's so important and I think it's really vital to the process. Steering away from climate change, similar question just like asking how do you think that like art, culture, like land access to it has been affected specifically by the pandemic in the face of time. It's only been a couple of years. And also how do you think it'll be affected in the future? I think when COVID hit, everybody was not prepared for it, unaware. And just as puppeteers in Kenya, we actually affected us more because most of what we do is mostly an interaction which is one-to-one with the community when we go out doing performances, doing projects and all that. So when that happened, the government was very quick to say no more gatherings. Everything has to stop, everybody stays at home and all that. Because most of us were depending on arts to feed our own families. We were caught, we didn't know what to do, but we said we have to act very fast. The first thing that we did was how do we still continue doing what we're doing? And still stick to the rules of what the government said that we came together and we said, can we still continue doing what we're doing, but in a very important way? So because the COVID thing was the current thing, we let go of the projects because even the projects that we were running at that particular time was stopped. We could not spend that much, which wasn't that much. So we went back to the guys who had given us money, we said, we still have this little money. We cannot go to school, we cannot go to school. Can we use it to do the same, but on a meaningful note? So we started doing a show which is called Dr. Pomoja. Pomoja is what it means together. So we came up with a character who's called Dr. Pomoja and a monkey character who are now talking about the endowment itself, how to wash hands, how not to come together, all that. Then immediately we started getting some little money that we cannot at least feed ourselves. And at the same time, we started disseminating the information now to the people. Actually, our focus was more on social media because many people in Kenya are having smart phones, that's about three. And so it was easier for us. We are glad that even the character out of the endowment which was bad, but it was good in these guys that were able to come up with a new show and able to do what we've been doing all along. Yeah, I think I'm honestly surprised when she says that the family is preparing to welcome people who are coming here and they might need to get some land and start a new life because in Kenya and I would even dare say in Africa, lands are very sensitive, very sensitive in the sense that people can actually even kill each other for land. We've been there in Kenya, we've been there several times where if politicians who usually are usual, like they're the ones who instigate these kind of problems come and then they divide us among the ethnic line and they say, ah, this person cannot come and buy land here and you know. So we've been there. And like Fidelis says, the pandemic has sort of like exacerbated this problem in a way that now more, like people need that security. They feel that their only security is also to have a place they can really go back to. Because a lot of people have moved to the cities for jobs as always, but when the pandemic hits and there were no jobs or they were, like salaries were slashed into half or like a lot of income activities were interrupted, they went back to the countryside. And then they realized, oh, I really don't have anything. I don't have a house, I don't have land. So that pressure is now mounting a lot of people to buy land or to acquire land. And then those kind of struggles can ensue. So I think art can play or explain a critical role in trying to bring across a message that fast and foremost that it doesn't have to be bloody. Acquiring land or leaving in a place where you don't. Because the thing in Kenya, I don't know whether it's the same here in the US. We do have ancestral lands where I come from. It's Taita, which is like the coastal highlands close to the Indian Ocean, but on the hills, he comes from the eastern part of Kenya. And it's difficult to, it's not, how can I say? It's not like difficult, but it's a big strength for me from the coastal highlands to go and buy land and leave where he comes from. Yeah, it's sort of like, there's some kind of friction. They'll only be like, why is he here? What is, go back to your place, you know, that kind of thing. So art in this way can help people to understand, to accept each other. You know, you look beyond your ethnic background, your prejudices, your political affiliations, and all that, and that's what papatry can do. That's what we've been trying to do all these years, is to tell people, fast and foremost, we are all human beings, we are all Kenyans, forget about your religious, political, economic background and all that, and just accept and live with each other, you know? It's not easy, it's really not, I cannot show you. It's very, very difficult, but somebody has to do the job. I appreciate that a lot, I feel like those two things are speaking to a lot, and just like the experience of land and of imagination being always the places where there is the most kind of like control, at least from like a government place, but also the places where we can access the most resilience and ability to transform and feel, and like being able to, I think like one of the things that we saw with the pandemic or anything like this is like the place where the artists, the dreamers, the storytellers, the people who are able to dream beyond their current circumstances are really the people who are shaping the way of where we go and how we get there, right? Because we have so many systems in place that work in a very specific way, they're very rigid and they don't leave much room for flexibility or something terrible to happen, and so when something terrible does happen, they fall apart and people don't know what to do because they have, you know, they have a band in their imagination, their ability to create and dream beyond like what is currently into what is possible, and I think that... I think it's been relying on the same thing for so long. Yeah, exactly. This was like checking my notes. Yeah, I think this was a conversation that I had. Can you speak up because here are the questions. Can you speak up? Can you speak up? Oh, sorry. Can you? I have lost my check and all. Yeah. Sorry, can you speak up? Yeah. If I could ask that question to them. Yeah. Is that okay? I am quite curious to find out, because you talk a lot about the healing that people can find healing in the land and also in the community that you're trying to establish. And how do you go about it? How do you accomplish it? Because it's not easy with all the history, with all, I believe, the injustices that have happened. How do you go about these very difficult tasks? That's actually one of the fundamental aspects of why we do what we do. And just to speak from my own experience, as I was going through my own process of healing, like working with plants became one of the avenues for me. And I discovered that just working with plants in and of itself wasn't healing and actually brought up more trauma. I'm an Afro-Indigenous person. I have a lineage that were enslaved people, sharecroppers. I have people that were invested from land, taken from land. And so for me, coming to the land and trying to find healing, it was very complicated. And I kept finding myself in spaces that could not hold that complication. And so it wasn't inherently healing. And it wasn't until I made the connection that the space needed to be held in a particular way, that the community had to be the right community and that there had to be a reckoning with some of that intergenerational trauma that I was experiencing that had to be an acknowledgement of some of those complicated histories that you're speaking to and the challenges. And so at SUSU, it's really about creating the community that can hold whatever comes up. And we invite in the different aspects of culture that are sometimes like missing from the societies we live in now. So bringing back in art, bringing in back in language, bringing back in storytelling, bringing back in mentors and teachers and elders who can actually hold ceremonial space so that people can move with the grief and the trauma that comes up when we make these connections because there is a lot here, there's a lot particularly on this land and in this place there's so much that's gonna come up for everyone who tries to engage in these practices honestly. So we have to meet everyone where they are and provide the context and the container that can hold them through it. And only then can we really talk about healing together as a community. And do you have like, I don't know like a formula or is it just like... I'm honestly curious because people are different, everybody comes with their, like you say, with their own experiences. So do you have like, I don't know, like a guru or somebody who texts people through this process or does it happen just by people discovering themselves when they're there and going through the process or I don't know. Like you know, it's definitely interesting. Yeah, so one of the things that we have been able to do this year is to invite some of our community's elders and mentors. So earlier in July, we have a Degar elder who practices indigenous technology of West Africa like of the area of Burkina Faso and Karina's mom of Christopher. And she came and held a community grief ritual for, it was a multiracial space but everyone was welcome to come and had her guidance as they moved through ceremony that could help them connect with and transform their grief. And then just a week or two ago, we had Mashika culture bears from Mexico come and do several ceremonies throughout the week. And I think it's a little bit of a combination of like both of what you're saying that we do look to elders, we do look to mentors, we do look to the wisdom that we both carry to kind of shape the container. We're definitely connecting with people in the community and finding out like what is needed and there are common themes like grief that come up all the time that we focus on. And then it really is just holding spaces where people are able to express themselves to voice what is coming up for them and try to meet those needs however we are able. But there's a lot of commonality particularly here. Yeah, and I think, I was just gonna say I think there's also an aspect of like a lot of what we do at Susu is also being in relationship with the earth and with nature and recognizing like all the different ways that things happen in nature and that things don't have to be this like, we'll do X, Y, and Z and then you'll be healed and everything will be great. Like recognize seeing you're like as like not coming back into like joy and happiness and everything's wonderful but like increasing our capacity to be with discomfort is really what we see healing as. Increasing our capacity to kind of like hold discomfort and these sensations that come up so that we can move through a process through them without them overpowering us. And so everybody who comes into Susu has a different life experience, you know? There's many commonalities but through the process of just like creating space for community to explore like what does it mean to heal or to feel like you belong or to feel like your safety and your dignity and your belonging can all exist at one time without having to abandon any of those things. It's like a very messy but organized in the way that nature is organized process where, and then there's a lot of room for curiosity where things come up and then we can create what we need in that moment. Like allowing for adaptation and change and all of these things to be part of that process. Just a question, I think we had discussed this before the panel and I think I just want to get it clear because you mentioned in your community that you came, even guys who are not here because personally from where I come from in our culture we have very weird, sometimes weird practices and I just want to understand there are rules that somebody is supposed to follow because there are some cultures in our country which they do rituals at night when everybody's sleeping. You say don't do that when everybody's sleeping, you have to do your thing this time or you just let everybody just do what they do. Well a lot of times, at least right now what has happened is we will like have an elder come. So like this elder that Naomi's talking about and then they will have kind of, like they'll share like how the ceremony or like the space that they're holding works and then we will kind of like. So continue your space. And be a part of that space but we have many different elders who come and then we're kind of learning from them and being present with what is normal for their culture and their practices or for the prescriptions for the ceremonies that they're holding. So if there are any time limit for you to stay there or you just come, you just part of the community and you stay there, I want to come and stay there. Yeah, of course, I would like to. They usually have a begiving middle and end at this point. Yeah, there is definitely. Which is a time when you just throw in, okay, now you got it. I'm sorry, I was actually on to it. Yeah, you'll find that. But there's the invitation to come back, right? So there'll be more offerings. It isn't just like the one time that it will happen. We'll continue to invite elders who already been here to come back and Amber and I are in the process of receiving some of these teachings so that it will be more ongoing. So we'll be there and be able to hold and facilitate. Okay, I don't know if you have, does y'all are already asking questions with yourselves? I don't know if you have any questions for them. But I do have one more question today or the one or two before I want to give the questions to the audience. Whether it's one or two will depend on how long it takes to answer. But we've been talking about a lot about land. I want to transfer more into the art side especially with healing. I, this question is presented to all of you but more specifically to Crystal. I already asked you this question during our interview but I find it pretty interesting. When I asked the question, I thought of an example through a game through a game I've watched and played where there are like four or five basic elements that kind of like set up the basis for the world and everyone's needs, like meat is food, smoke is air, it's not exactly, it's a surreal world. But sugar is what keeps everyone like sane and within themselves without becoming the monsters that you face throughout the game. And when having our interview, I found art to be, though not exactly like that, to be out like a similar essence where being able to express yourself and think being able to express yourself is just that that's kind of what art is. You can express, I'm trying to think of this in easier terms. Like expressing yourself in almost any way, like through your clothing or through paintings or through writing or drawing, that's an art form. Every, almost every kind of way you can express yourself is through an art form and you need ways to express yourself. So in our society, especially Western societies, we consider art making to be kind of unimplemented. Like a hobby or just something you do in your pastime when, at least in my opinion, it's something that is really needed. You need a way to express yourself. You need a way to do something that will be able to show how you feel about this sort of topic, about how you feel about life, how you feel about maybe this sort of person, eventing, event art. How do you feel, how do you all feel about people's view that art is simply a hobby or a hobby? In our lives, from the miniature form, I think we are artists in our culture because everything is facts. We have, when your mother is back in New, she's singing to you. When you grow up, you start getting your parents' telling your stories. When you're going to the Shamba, the Shamba is the field, what you understand on the field, you have season where you sing certain songs. So I think in our culture, we go through art from the first moment we're born, to express ourselves, because we have songs to express everything. We have songs when people die, we have songs when we miss. Happiness, we have songs to welcome people, we have songs even to welcome you to it. So I think we've gone through that process from the day one. Yeah, but I must add that as far as this is sort of like in building arts, I think when we look, when we come now to the corporate or the career aspect, people then begin to change. Parents and the society also begins to change. They look, if you say, I want to be a singer, or I want to be an actor, or I want to be, I don't know. Papatier. Papatier. Yeah. What is that? Yeah, exactly. They then begin, okay, and what else are you going to be doing? So it changes immediately, even though they know that this is something that you're really passionate about, that you enjoy doing, and you know, you're gifted in it, they would still not take it, I think when we were like still in our youth, I'm talking about now in the 90s, it's changing, thankfully now. It's changing slowly, it's still hard, but it's changing in a way because they are beginning to realize that there are some artists, some actors, some papatiers who actually can make a living and are doing very well with it. So the attitudes are slowly changing and there's a little bit of acceptance because the art industry, not just in Kenya, but I think in Africa is also rapidly growing. It's really growing very, very fast and adding into the economy. So even leaders are beginning to realize there's potential in it. And so they are slowly by slowly investing in it, not as much as we'd like. I mean, we'll focus even more, but there is a little bit of progress in that direction. So there's still a hesitancy in some certain aspects of society, but I believe the attitudes are changing for the better. I have a story that what Crispin is saying is as much as we have that in built, there was a time I used to work, I'm trained in pharmacy. So I was working in the pharmacy and then this opportunity of using art to educate people came to the place that I was working. So we were chosen four guys to go and train as papatiers to continue doing the health education that was brought from another organization. So when I started doing papatry, because in me I was an artist. So it was a very good thing. It was, ah, this is lovely. This is what I want to do, no? Then we started having festivals where we used to travel to the capital city. Then I took the first trip to go two weeks and then I took another one. Then the last trip I was given an automaton. I was told by my boss, you either choose to be working or you will continue doing what you're doing. Then I chose the latter. I took the trip, I went to Nairobi, I didn't tell my mother. I hid that from her and then when I came back, I pretended I was going to work. And she wasn't happy. When she came to find out that, how can you leave a well-paid job and you're going to do these things? She didn't understand this. So many parents don't take it as a serious job. She passed away, but I wish she would see me. I wish she would see me. Do either of you have any comments? I was thinking about it in terms of education. And I think about how important STEM is and how STEM leaves out the arts. And my child, my son, who is nine, is homeschooled. And one of the reasons that he is homeschooled is because of the lack of arts education in curriculum. And so I do worry about what it means for American culture, in particular, if I can speak to that about American cultures, to not center the arts, to not create space. And like you're saying, arts are a way that we can express ourselves, but they're also a way that we can come together and create a similar project that you were part of, things like that. Like art is a vital part of culture. And without it, we're seriously lacking in one of the fundamental ways that we stay healthy and whole. And so I hope that we can find ways to keep educating the public about how vital and important the arts are because it doesn't feel like they are valued anymore. So it's like, we only have 14 minutes left. So now I'd like to like, bring the audience into this. See if you have any questions, go ahead. Hi, thank you, this is wonderful. So it feels like your practices are in-person practices as you identify. And you also identify during the pandemic how you had to utilize other mediums, social media, in order to disseminate the things that you do. I think there's stories, but it's also information and learning and teaching and growing and healing. And I'm curious, with that experience moving forward, are you going to take any of that? One of the things I think during the pandemic, which was really highlighted at least here, is this idea of accessibility and what blocks of accessibility and inequities in accessibility and how social media can sometimes actually help with that, or sometimes hinders. I'm just curious how moving forward, a little bit of what you talked about, how that's going to potentially impact and how you feel about its impact in your ability to reach more people, but how you reach them? And is it as meaningful in your minds? Do you feel like it's as meaningful in engagement? I think it's impactful, that I would say. And we didn't know that it could happen until when COVID hit. And we've seen a lot of feedback coming from the people who have seen the shows. I'll give you an example. We had a lady who came to our puppet hub. And she came there because her kid was all the time asking how she wants to see the character of... There's a character we call Bali, and there's a small monkey who works with a doctor, Dr. Pamodya. And that kid was demanding to come and see that, that she can't, and the mother had to find our contacts, call, and she came. She said, these, my kid has fallen in love with this monkey. And the message that she's been insisting on washing hands all the time. And it's like, oh, my God. So that is one incident. And there's so many that, even our show, when we perform after the show, we get people who say, that information, that story was so good. So as an artist, when you get one person coming to give you a feedback, that is as presentation of so many of them will not come. So that's how we see it. Yeah, and I think as far as the pandemic is concerned, it's very hard to tell the kind of lessons or the kind of takeaways that we can get because it's still very much experimental. We still don't know the whole picture yet. So we can gauge and say, yeah, maybe going online and doing shows online did have an impact because at least it kept us busy during that time, we were not just idle. But on the other hand, as somebody who's traditional, I must insist that theater really is the meeting, is the meeting between the actor and the audience. So, and that doesn't really happen in front of a screen, unfortunately. Otherwise just watch Netflix or Disney. So it is still very much a gray area. And as far as, yeah, we can now start to think of the future of puppetry in terms of performing on YouTube or live streaming on Facebook and all that kind of mediums that are available. So it's, there is obviously a huge opportunity and a huge potential, but I'm not, I can't really say, yeah, this is something that we want to pursue and it could eventually be something that is working, yeah, for puppetry or any other form of, except for maybe content creators who are just churning out every other day, for likes and comments and shares. So I don't know if you see differently, but that's how I see it. This question was just like random pops up in my head. What about virtual reality puppetry? Just like thinking, because we're using a lot more like video and social media and such soon. Organizations like Zoom are like, we have to make, like with the pandemic and with people not meeting as much as they used to, people are going to start making more stuff that would come closer to that. Even though that's still obviously far down the line, just what would you think about doing virtual reality puppetry? I'm also technology. I think it's definitely interesting, but it's also a question of resource. I mean, if you're talking about virtual reality in a village in Africa, that's not being understood. So if we're looking at societies like maybe in Vermont and you want to try out the app, absolutely, you can try that and maybe it can work. And in a situation where you have restrictions where you cannot go to the theater and you can still play and they can't wear their devices and they're in the shop, why not? You know, that's absolutely terrific. But in the context of, let's say, Africa and new technology is concerned, we are still, it's still growing, it's still young. And people need to fast and foremost feed their families, take their kids to school before they can think of buying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it will be some time before we get there. I think also it feels like a bull fan, like I feel like I experienced some of what you were sharing too in terms of like just like seeing the way that your puppet shows are where you're singing and there's vibration and there's like this connection that you can feel that through a screen but it's not the same as being there. Yeah, and being able to like be in that energy and I feel like I know for myself, like my brain is able to like process or like really hear a story when I can be connected to it in that way that feels like it's only possible in real life or possible in a different way. And I feel like with Susu where I mean, I deeply believe that, you know, just like from our ancestry and like making a way of no way. And I think that like there are many ways that black people have to drive through the pandemic because of our ability to shape shift and like use opportunities to create portals and use our imaginations and create beyond our current circumstances. And I think that that's powerful medicine. I think there's like many cool things that were able to happen by being able to do programming online, like you can snuggle up in bed and eat food while you're like in the class. You don't have to be like, you know, in this environment but I think there was aspects that are, I feel so sacred and important to building this kind of community and being in relationship with people and being able to, I mean, because we're doing classes where we're teaching ceremonies and we're doing ritual on Zoom, which is definitely very different for people to individually be in place and there's potent magic that comes from that. But I think that being able to both end up like, how do we use the resources we have when we need to and also how do we, like, preserve these aspects of our culture, being together, being in community that are also so deeply important to our health and survival. Yeah. Social media was very important for the growth of Susu, for us to end up. It was how we reached our audience. It was how we connected. It was how we were able to sustain ourselves when it felt like everyone else's doors were closing. And we had powerful reach. We had students all the way up in Nunniflip, which is like, North East Canada and the Arctic. I think when it comes to accessibility, it's very important as a person who experiences neurodivergence to be able to have other ways of being in communities one another. And so I think that we'll always have some aspect of that. But the other thing that became a reality in the past two years was Zoom fatigue, just being in front of that community computer screen for hours and hours on end, trying to make these connections is so physically exhausting and draining that when we were finally able to be in person again, just everything felt so easy and spacious. And so I think it's harnessing each for the things they do best. So being able to utilize the technology for what it's best for, and then being able to be in person when that makes the most sense. That feels what's right. Are there any more questions? This isn't a question. I just want to say how happy I am all of you together talking to each other. Yeah. Thanks for being here. I think this is sort of an aligned comment, but in form of a question, which is that you talked about the indigenous, that the way in which the ceremony and ritual is still so much a part of your country in Kenya and your culture and made reference to the West, which you've also affirmed that we lack ritual, which we have, we're longing for and seeking for rituals and renewal of rituals that once actually were a part of Western culture, but have been sort of leaving the way. And I'm wondering if you might both talk about where there are other opportunities of cross-cultural exchange so that we can learn from one another some of the opportunities for how ritual and ceremony transform both communities and nations and regions. Do you want to go first? Go. I believe there are many opportunities and instances where we can both learn from one another. It's not just a one-way traffic. We have, like let's say the Maasai people, who they still practice their initiation rites when the man is entering into adulthood. I don't know whether they still do this. They still have to send the young man into the forest to go and kill a lion. And then you have to bring back home your trophy and say, yeah, now I'm a man. They say, okay, you can now get married. Obviously, I wouldn't advise you to do that here, to go and kill a bear or something. Yeah. But it's just a ritual to just encourage the young man to be more courageous, to be more responsible, because now you probably be responsible for a family. So it encourages the young man to start thinking differently. That's the whole point. And in the, I believe I wouldn't speak for the Western rituals or the Western practices, but one that I know of is more like when you're almost an adult, then the parents usually, I don't know, they buy you a car or they tell you, you know, here is some money that we have been saving for you. And so it's as possible. They try to give you sort of like a platform, like a foundation that can help you begin your life as an adult. So I believe there are instances. There are many, many rituals, many, many practices that the African Kenyans we still practice. I believe it's the same for Susufam and, you know, others might have that we can learn from one another. We can say, okay, this is something that could work for me and, you know, this is something that cannot work. And why not, you know, exchange and grow from them. Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying also, kind of like in comparing those two rites of passage, because I think in the West often we also aren't able to notice the rituals that we have that seem really mundane, but when we can be in relationship with those, like sweeping the floor or mopping or like, you know, like the way that we can bring ceremony and ritual into, like we call that at Susufam, we call it radically regular, right, like it's all the stuff that we're doing. It's really just basic, but when we're able to actually remember and acknowledge these rituals that we do have, like what is here and that we can really like feel into those practices because it's really kind of like the ability to be with what is and to enjoy these really mundane and basic things that are ritual and like, I think we romanticize like these gigantic fancy ceremonies with all of this like beautiful stuff and like feel like we're lacking because we don't have them. There are so many ways that we have access to ritual and ritual is crucial to our health and our development and our ability to do it. I would also want to point out something because we've been having a problem with this that trying to relate the Western culture with Africa, it has really brought a lot of problems in many, many communities and houses at the same time because we have a kind of a different look at things where we say a man cannot wash dishes and these are things that we are really, really struggling to try and make them fit into the modern life because now we are actually moving from where we are as a culture and moving towards a different place where it's not more like we have to stick to our culture. We've been having problems where we hear a man like, I'll tell Crispin, how can you wash dishes? You're a man, no? This is not our culture, actually. Yeah, so we've been having that struggle whereby we're still fighting to be, to align the Western with our culture, but it is taking very little steps rather than to take time, I think, to take time. And some things I'm pretty sure they will still stick to where they are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just to add on, it's a question of taking what is used because I think times have changed, you know, and some people are still stuck in the really old ways. For example, female genital mutilation. This is still practice, unfortunately, in some communities, even though it's clear that it does not help anyone, it's just hurtful, it's strong, it's just wrong, it's a violation, and it doesn't work. But because, I don't know, my grandmother practiced this and she left it to me, so I have to do it to my daughter, and you know, so there are some of these, I think I've shared also with some of you, another one which was just like, which really wasn't the HIV pandemic at the time, was that in some communities, if I'm married and I die, then my brother was to inherit my wife. So I could have died, potentially AIDS, in some cases that was the case, but it was forced. There was no negotiations, you cannot deny, you just have to, automatically, you get the wife and the family, and you have to continue procreating with this wife. So some rituals or some practices could have worked maybe back then for some reasons because we needed to feel the earth or we needed to, I don't know, there was some context at that time relevant and now they just don't work. So I think it's a question of taking what really works and sharing what doesn't work anymore. Or giving the old things the context. Yes. For example, yes, I don't want to inherit your wife, but take care of her. Yes. You know, just renaming the context makes the ritual serve itself. And it happens, it happens because it's just natural because if you have your brother's family and your brother has passed on, then you automatically want to take care of him. But that aspect of, no, you need to now start sleeping with her, doesn't have to necessarily be there. It's past one now, so. Oh, I can ask it offline. Yeah, it's about time. It's one o' five, the panel should be ending now and pass it to Shoshana to properly record it. Right here. Yeah. I can go with her. And I feel it's a privilege to be in the room, to experience this and we have to tie up this moment and say goodbye to those of you that are joining us online to say thank you, but before we do that, I just want to do a little pitch for Susu in this community because this is a fairly new organization here and has just grown and resourced and it's so exciting what you are doing. So for anyone who lives here, they're currently looking for volunteers to drive around CSA packets, so please speak to them. They just got their own land, which we're so excited about. Talk to these two wonderful people. If you can or look them up online, send a little donation and just help them survive and grow in this community. And then likewise, please follow Kristall Pappeteer's online and a lot of virtual content that you can experience as they were talking about. We've greeted very much over the pandemic, so you can engage a lot as you continue on even though we have to say goodbye today. And they have a show tomorrow at five. They do. For those that are here in the community, please come out. It will be the final show of the festival in Patne, behind the Patne Inn. And we'll be very excited to see you all there. Five o'clock.