 Yeah, it won't be any Madonna microphone. It's one because of issues But yeah, so I'm Lina. I am a policy project manager at the Frisbee Foundation Europe And we are a charity that empowers users to control technology and we do so through Frisbee for So among different of our activities we have the policy activities and that is the reason why I'm here today because At the moment we're working on this Interoperability your back. So I would be very happy to give you an overview on like the existing sort of framework on interoperability and yeah, what's new with this act and what kind of impacts can have on the Frisbee system and if actually would be the so-called real game changer that it's supposed to be So Got it. Yeah, okay, okay Yeah, so I always like to start my presentations talking about, you know, let's put everybody on the same page Yeah, so whenever we talk about free software and this is actually a very friendly reminder that I always like to do and That we will talk about free software we're talking about for freedoms the freedom to use to study to chair and improve the software And we all know oh, yeah, that whenever one of these freedoms is limited and we're not talking about free software anymore So let's Yeah, I also already mentioned I'm going to talk about this act, but first I also want to kind of Put everybody on the same page when it comes to The term interoperability Because you're gonna hear this term a lot and you're gonna hear me struggling with this work for 40 minutes or more so Interoperability is the ability of information systems to talk one another To and be able to chair information and data across borders and sectors When we talk about this then of course, there is a need for a critical Infrastructure and that's where free software plays as a super important role because if the infrastructure is not Made in the way that this information can be chair then it's impossible to talk about it interoperability So before we go into the Interoperability of art let's talk about what's here already and what's the state of play because there is already something That has been in place for the last decade and this is something that we've been also kind of using to Support our demands over the last years So this to say that this act doesn't come, you know all of a sudden But it's actually kind of build up on something that is already there So I think whenever we talk about interoperability, then we always talk about two declarations So now we're talking about member states Kind of giving a political commitment or doing up some of like political communication and one of these declarations is the talent declaration that was signed by member states in 2017 and then we really kind of see some wording on this direction. So Yeah, the tech said that it demands to make more use of open source solutions And also to strengthen the requirements of the use of open source solutions. So basically the member states that signed this declaration are Convenient to yeah to do so. But again, this is just like a political communication. So Yeah, not to Leo the violence of same Then after that, we got the Berlin declaration in 2020 And you can see also like the word goes on the same direction So when suitable open source technologies to be implemented in the development and deployment of Cros for the digital solutions. So here really we start to see some kind of warning on You know, I'm not using this the role of free software for interoperability and We also have to say that I mean, there is already something that it's there, but It's not perfect, of course And it has a lot of like loopholes and then if we really pay attention to the wording then we can find it a little bit you know and because or Yeah, it could be improved but again, there is already something on this direction so Now let's talk about the European Commission And then from the European Commission side they have been some attempts on this direction as well So I think it is important to talk about the in the European interoperability framework This is a European Commission communication and It is supposed to be based on a voluntary basis from member states to take measures on this kind of direction so for instance then We have also, I mean the whole idea of this framework is kind of to offer guidance for member states to be able to deliver Interoperable digital public services And the last version of this one is from 2017 and then again We already see as well some references to open source as an enabler for From the principles of this framework, especially when it comes to reusability. So in that regard, you know, like how a Public administrations can interact with each other and can reuse Existing solutions and adapt them to their own needs Within this framework, there is the framework of servatory like the national interoperability Interoperability framework of servatory, which is which was in charge of kind of monitoring this implementation But again, it kind of like a voluntary basis So they were kind of like identifying these good practices taking place on some member states and Monitoring how the implementation was going Yeah, when we talk about interoperability, we also should mention these Programs, which were some European Commission funding programs and they aim to support the development of digital solutions as well and to kind of strengthen the Interoperability across borders, but also across sectors And within this kind of funding program, then there were like some initiatives So for instance, the chairing and reuse Awards initiative which aim to kind of raise awareness of the benefits of chairing and reusing Interoperable solutions And I mean this was kind of like a good example of how Public administrations could network and could you know identify good practices taking place Yeah, reusing them as well Yeah, and by the way, I mean these ISAN is a square project that not running anymore also because many lack of budget Which again, I mean chose. I mean I think it shows that there is already things happening in this direction but You know with the lack of a dedicated budget or lack of specific activities then this kind of efforts kind of really run for too long The European Commission also have this portal Probably some of you know it and the join up portal which is Yeah, it aims to serve as a point of entry for different best practices for also chairing Here and there's some free software solutions I mean and everybody can actually join and publish and yeah, it's it's it's a nice way to kind of identify all these news and best practices already taking place and Now of course when we talk about The European Commission's efforts then we should also talk about the open source strategy This is a strategy that came 2020 And then it is again a communication from the Commission to the Commission. So basically they were trying to Set up some kind of guidelines on the way or like on the use of open source within the institutions like within the EU institutions And This document unfortunately, I mean we acknowledge the first step on kind of bringing these guidelines and so on but It came with a lot of loopholes. I'm like the wording is also quite ambiguous because like for instance here says that Whenever it makes sense the Commission will chair the source code of its future IT projects But I mean when it doesn't make sense and where it doesn't so it's not really clear And then there is also a part where the Commission can choose to use the software It says where there are good reasons to do so so again I mean it's not super clear when what good reasons are and where it makes sense. So It is not really a solid text And also lacks budget as well and I feel that Yeah, I mean you will see through my talk that the lack of budget is one of the issues that Kind of always come with this kind of documents However in one year later so in 2021 the Commission got out Like the release of decision. So this is now something binding So now it's not a communication anymore, but Decision and within this decision they have implemented different Kind of future so to say so the first one is the public repository. So there is already a Public repository for the EU institutions But also for member states to collaborate with each other and to share their free software solutions that they use And I'm also part of this Decision they also introduced the Ospo so the open source of this program Officer, sorry Yeah, but again within this decision there was also not super clear Where the money was coming from or like what, you know to kind of achieve these activities a What the money should be coming from? But still I mean this is kind of like a Step forward we keep saying that things can get better and things can be proved but it's also I mean it's also important to acknowledge that there's some kind of efforts happening so now that I kind of gave a little bit of a Overview of what's happening or the European Commission and with some political communications with member states I wanted to give a little bit of an overview on some specific member states that have some sort of like legal or policy guidelines or regulations When it comes to public procurement and free software so because of time of course I can only I mean I chose this tree mainly because I mean the first two are kind of some sort of progressive so to say and I mean Sweden is also a In a way leading these efforts and I mean we're in Sweden. So it would be also nice to give a lower view of Yeah, what's happening here? But first then let's take a look at the Italy I mean in this kind of regard and it's a little bit of a can be considered Progressive and that has kind of like progressive a regulation on this regard because They have this degree and that was actually updated this year where Yeah, whenever the public administration is going to procure new digital solutions then It should give precedence to free software and it should be a preference to the Free software solutions that are ready on the and the public repository from developers Italia and from other free software repositories And I mean again, I think when we're talking about this kind of Regulations or legal policy Efforts it's I think the difference among like between the text and its implementation it's there's a big gap there and I mean we can see it also in Italy although they have this degree in practice is not as perfect as you can read it here and again, that shows as the the challenges that come with the Implementation of the law, but again, and this is kind of like we can consider that some sort of Progressive legislation, and yeah, this is an example of the of the public repository and they also have another one So now Now let's talk about France. So in France, there is also a law And that calls to our administrations to encourage they use of free software when developing or procuring new information systems and Yeah, as well, I mean I think in France. It's a very similar So again, I mean although they have this This law in practice also. It's a little bit more challenging as one I think But It's I mean, I think one of the points that I want to bring with this stuff is to kind of highlight Of these efforts not only happening. I mean in the U-Level, but as a member states but also how You know, kind of like those efforts are helping me kind of like isolated So, um, you know, the question that I want to raise right now is like, what if we just join efforts instead of You know, do we know all things? Yeah, and this is the public repository also from France they also have others public repose all the public repositories Where a public administrations chair there Yeah, free software solutions and finally We have Sweden Which from why not it has more kind of like a soft and implicit Policy guidelines or yeah guidelines and they have been some attempts to go on this direction as well So, for instance, this framework women were more than 200 administrations Kind of sign And when it comes to public procurement and free software, and there is also something on open IT standards and this software development policy It basically requires that all the yeah, so far developing the swedish digital government deep should be published as possible as I mean as open as possible And I mean, I also know that there are a lot of efforts taking place in different municipalities and different public administrations, so I'm aware that the Swedish Where's it go the Swedish insurance agency it's also a Going on this direction. We have we have today and tomorrow on our legal policy tracks and kind of this example, so you know public administrations Trying to make use and promote free software but again, they're like taking place in different places and kind of like Yeah, in an isolated way, so I guess this is also one of the main reasons why now the European Commission last year the end of last year and have has proposed the interoperable year back So it actually is aiming to Sorry, so So it's actually aiming to Create this cross-border Regulation to help member states to deliver interoperable digital solutions So again as we could see there's already a lot of things happening But some kind of like you know What all like at least when it comes to the European Commission and member states Communication that is more like not voluntary kind of base and This is saying to be I mean, it's a regulation, so it will be little binding And that is the reason why We have decided to step in and to work on this file because we believe that This could have a lot of impact on the way that public administrations deliver public services And the role of free software in this whole In this effort section So now I want to Yeah, let's take an overview of what's new. What is this whole thing about? And what exactly they're trying to you know introduce So first Also, I mean, there's also some more things that they're trying to introduce such as trainings sandboxes here reviews But I have just I have decided to go through this because I consider that these are the kind of Topics where Free software could play a role, but also that you could affect the free software ecosystem So first they want to introduce some kind of governance Structure, so they are aiming to create two Different bodies so to say so the first one is the interoperable your board And the second one is the interoperable your community So basically the board will be the one kind of having The decision-making powers of say so they're in charge of setting up the agenda Every year so setting up the guidelines They're also in charge of promoting certain interval solutions Really a lot of more Kind of powers that this board will have At the moment all the way the text it is is at the moment So it will be constituted by the commission one representative of Each member state one representative of the committee of the regions and one representative from the European economic and social Board or yeah And these two are advisory bodies, so this is more or less how the board will look like And of course the community then is broader And the whole idea is there will be this Button up and talk down interaction. So the board will check with the community And the community will provide with expertise And in this kind of the structure or governance structure, then the agenda will be set up The second one is that they are trying to implement some kind of a mandatory interoperable assessments So basically when a public administration's want to Create a new Procure a new information system or actually highly modified one Then they should make an assessment of how Interoperable this solution will be so in this regard then here the public administration should think about if they can reuse or Something that already exists or if they should procure something completely new They also want to Kind of change the way things are done. So they want to kind of make mandatory sharing and reusing solutions However, the way the text is written at the moment. It's also a little bit problematic because there is part where it says that when requested which I mean if it's an terrible solution and if it's open and then it's you know available for everybody then it should be They should not be any need for requests and administrations should just quite a fall be able to chair and reuse instead of waiting to be requested or to request And then Yeah, they also want to I mean they basically want to change the name for joiner So it would be this interoperable your portal kind of like what I show it would be it would serve as a like a common point of entry for administrations to chair solutions but also The monitoring reports would be chair here as well as the the agenda that the board will Create so basically this is where everybody will find all this information as solutions Because it would be this is the single entry. So this is more or less in very broad Perspective what they're trying to include introduce And I mean in the text already to play of the important Rule that free software and open standards play here. It's acknowledged And we believe that it's a step forward However, we also have found some locals And yeah, so now let's go to them the first one it's Yeah, that more Inclusion from different stakeholders Would be better or be a good idea Especially in the body that has the decision-making power, which is the poor And when I talk about stakeholders Especially talking about civil society, and if I can be more specific that I'm also talking about the free software community so we believe that in Such poor who is actually setting up agenda and the priorities and The community the free software community should play an important role. I mean, it could also be the case that The free software community is included as an observer, but it's still being able to See how the decisions are made instead of just Be completely excluded from that could be also an option, but in this point Yeah, this is not the case Yeah, we will be part of the community, but it was to believe that the free software community can offer much more than Expertise so it should be, you know at least an observer in the board This kind of Demand it's has been already somehow brought up in the European Parliament so I think Some decision makers have already Identified that there is a need for more involvement of different stakeholders in the board The second one is that at the moment, there is no indicators or Any way to measure progress whatsoever. So I mean, we also believe that I Mean in order to see how the state of play has changed our time It is important to have indicators and then if you're gonna implement new activities or New measures, then you should I mean one should also be able to Prove to measure them and see how much of these progress has actually taken place and this is not the case at the moment, so It's also not super clear the kind of activities that public administration should carry So it is not clear that like exactly the activities, but also how to measure search progress over time So basically we want Numbers and statistics that show us what has been done and what kind of progress has taken place The third one is Yeah, kind of expected so there is lack of budget or dedicated budget and so right now public administrations in Regional local all levels would have to carry on carry on more Activities or more, you know just the assessment so to say and there is not a dedicated budget for this so Yeah, we believe that If this is not Specified or at least clarified in the text then it this could fall Or it could be another of the existing frameworks that are already in place and I mean although we know that this is not kind of like Funding program or anything like this, but at least you should be clear where the money Becoming from and there is also a lack of definitions and we believe that I mean This is kind of the perfect place to define what we're talking about so there is an article that Includes some definitions and We also believe that open source and open sounders to be defined in this file So we should also there, you know in the future we could avoid This whole discussion again if we can just define here what we mean and I think there was to give more clarity to a lot of the new Like the day it measures that I want to introduce and at the moment there is some kind of Monitoring that will be taking a care by the European Commission. So the Commission will be checking the status of The yeah, they saw measures that have been taking And we believe that there is a need for an independent body to actually do this monitoring So we just came up with the idea that maybe the code of auditors could play a really important role here because We always have to remember that When we talk about a digital public services, we're talking about public money and then we have to make sure that you know this public money is Spending the most efficient way And also again as an independent Auditor it will be kind of an idea at least to include the code of auditors at least in the U-Level because Yeah, and then maybe like the national Auditors remember says to report to the code of auditors But there is need for at least some kind of like Independent monitoring and I'll just say European Commission monitoring what they do Here when we talk about again digital services then We have to you know talk about Procurement So we also believe that I mean it doesn't make any sense to talk about Administrations picking with one another if public procurement keeps taking place the way it's been taking place in many places, so We believe that this is maybe a good And Yeah, text or even just to bring up the discussion on Gap line for a post border European procurement, so that at least there's some kind of Harmonized and common procurement practices as a guideline as well And I think this is not I mean at least the debate around this should be taking place because again We can't really talk about interoperability if we don't go back to and the procurement issue as well And Again, I mean we're talking about code here So all these free software solutions or interoperable solutions should be chair in our culture platform so it should be People to be all administrations to be able to find these Solutions instead of requesting them. There should be available And This I think all of these goes back to First that this act to have a free software first approach so when we're talking about interoperable solutions that we should talk about free software and And of course also all the The loop also kind of demands that we have are also based on our public public code campaign Which yeah, the public public code campaigns Initiative that the FCP started more than five years. I mean basically is requiring that Digital solutions that have been developed or procured for the public sector with public money then should be available to the public We have a work or like approach different stakeholders and administrations and we're trying to stress sorry stress the arguments behind this and showing the Public sector how they can turn costs that can also help to strengthen digital sovereignty How with these they can also collaborate with each other? And I mean I think we already have some good practices taking place And we have a letter from this as well, which has been signed by more than 200 organizations Seven public administrations one from Sweden the job tech from the Swedish employment agency Yeah from Spain from Germany recently from Luxembourg So I think this whole like argument with the public money public coach It's also supporting our demands with the interoperable Europe back because this is exactly what we're talking about So if you're gonna procure something new then let's try to make sure that it is physical for and it's available to the public So and now I would like to talk a little bit what's next with the With the fight with the act So at the moment so there will be a commissioner really present his proposal. I know this has or is discussed by the European Parliament at the console and Yeah, once they have their own Version then they will inter institutional Discussions or the trials From the console side, and I mean the Sweden is holding the presidency at the moment, so It would pretty much kick off the negotiations And then there was seat three of them to decide on the final things So there's a lot in front I mean, we really know how much of this can take but the whole point is that This is still a draft that probably some things that I told today can be removed can be highly modified I can't stay the way they are And we are trying to Push our demands for now in the I mean through the European Parliament. So we're doing a We're trying or aiming to talk with some decision makers and also change our demands but also for arguments and We also trying to help them because This is also a case that most of the times that don't really they're not really experts on the topic so we're trying to Guide them and by this also trying to influence influence the way the text will look India if possible And I mean just to kind of wrap up You can you all can help us. So if you're interested in this if you have some input We'll be more than happy to hear and to exchange some insights You can also convince your local administration So I think we always like to give this kind of friendly reminder that you know Administrations are not only like the parliament or the mayors or you know the Congress, but the Universities the libraries. They are also public administrations and they are also making use of public money to Digitalize their infrastructure, so you can always reach out to your local administration you can briefly Yeah, it's real the benefits of free software And then also you can you can ask them to sign a letter But we also believe if they're if they become more aware of the benefits that free software can have In the digital public infrastructure, then this is still something. This is still a win You can also sign an open letter You can go to the Public code dot you website. You will find a open letter there And you can sign as an individual as an organization or even as a public administration And so you're all more than welcome to do so and you can also donate to us. So we are a charity so we Are based on the support of our communities or the community and I really believe that this Give us the freedom to Push our demands. So that was make us independent So you support is is really I mean you really enables our work And of course you can spend the work. So we have a lot of Material for this we have a booth there where you can you know take all day from material that we have you can share this with your communities with public administrations and You can talk about the benefits of result work with PMPC or you can also Start to bring up this discussion on interoperability and the benefits of free software on this So, yeah, make sure to take few Leaflets or brochures. We have a very nice brochure on public money public code where we highlight some good practices That also is something on procurement there. So I really invited to take a look at it and to take a look at the website There's tons of information there and that's also the place where we share our positions and our views Yeah, the practices we also highlight some good practices taking taking place all around Europe and yeah with this I think I have some time for questions and I hope this a Gave some kind of like overview of what's happening and What kind of challenge challenges we have in front for this act to be a real game tender. Thank you Raise your hand Otherwise, I will ask the question So, how do you see the public? Procurement routines sort of stopping the use of open source of because what you usually don't have a products offering per se and that's often what's being procured Which I think is a blocker Yeah Like the public procurement rules that you try to look for a product offer. That's not how it was worth You always adapt so you need some sort of middleman Taking upon themselves to adapt open source to actually fulfill the requirements rather than buying the services and just using The 90% solution so you pay very expensively to develop 100% instead of 10% because of the way that it's boarded and procured I'm not sure if that's universal problem within Europe or if it's Switch problem or even smaller. Yeah And this is exactly what we meant when we want to bring the discussion about public procurement I mean, we also know that the public procurement is a national affair so there's nothing I mean, there is nothing really like binding that it could be made in the level but We're talking about guidance or like public administrations to be able to create this kind of network that make You know the requirements for public procurement of free software easier, you know So if you know how the your name for public administration is procuring and you know the solution then you should be also able to You know have this information and kind of like some sort of having a harmonized way to handle this public procurement because it is true right now is This is an issue and for a lot like a lot of times that is really difficult to Free software solution because the the all the tenders that are competing is are like, you know, super difficult or like you know giant so To kind of build this harmonized way or that means again, just bringing up the discussion of how this is handling and I think this is the perfect Act to do so if we're gonna regulate the way public administrations are Handling or delivering public digital services, then let's also talk about how we're handling public procurement and Let's you know try to learn also in a harmonized way So we hope that with this or like bringing up this Like raising this issue of concerns can bring a little bit of more awareness in the member states on how procurement takes place And we have one more question We can have many more but I find one So if this passes, what do you think is the chances that they will be in dropables? Parties and standards all over Europe, but they don't interact great You have hundreds of intractable products, but they don't collaborate together. I mean, I would say if We somehow managed to make this turn and reuse actually the default Then I Like to be positive and I would like to see I would say that public administrations want to first Know what's out there and how somehow they can share costs instead of procuring something from zero, so I would say if This kind of ecosystem is built up and it's open and this network of Solutions so say it's open and available for every single administration then I want to believe that They will go first in this direction of you know checking first. What's there? because I sometimes I feel that a Lot of public administrations don't know of you know There's solutions that all of us are using and I've been noticing this when I'm having calls with different public administrations And when you highlight of the practice taking place, they're like highly surprising. They're like Interested as well. So I feel like a lot of times These solutions are not well, you know visible or their public administrations are not aware of Scan solutions already being developed by us Maybe I miss one of the points regarding What's happening in Sweden in terms of digital solutions done for public organizations? Did I get it right that any project that you do for a public organization in Sweden need to be made up of us? I mean A little policy frameworks that are in place in Sweden are kind of like implicit so they're not I mean There is not like a whole framework or like whole Regulation setting up these conditions. So there are different things happening here and there and the last one that I talked about Is yeah, it's mainly about the look by the Swedish digital government agency Think I don't know how you pronounce this in Sweden in Swedish, but yeah, so basically if they're developing or procuring something of the It should be it should be a open source, but not for the whole For whole Sweden. So this is the thing that there's here. There's more things, but it's super subtle and super Yeah, implicit So say Follow up to a job, but then so what are the points do you think is kind of restricting? the international community or a European community to kind of enforce Making any open Any projects which is going into a public organization open source What are the main parts which is kind of stopping it? to kind of implement this particular thing for In the private sector in terms of anybody wants to contribute to a public organization So what are the points which is kind of stopping? government to impose it To make it open to us So did I understand right that I mean in what way this act will change kind of the status like the set of cool or like the set of play and make If they free and open source solutions Requires of same is also the question. I don't know if I got it right That means like to replace it. Yeah, I'm also not a specific So Is there some key points which is kind of restricting this European acts to impose public organizations from not accepting any software which is not meant to be open source There is nothing on that. I mean there is also no like if you're gonna procure something new then you should be free So far and that is the reason why we're trying to step in to kind of bring out this demand We I mean we also don't we're not completely sure if we just gonna you know for all these interval solutions If there should be all free and open source, you know, like I think by default interval solutions are Free software. Otherwise, I mean there is no way one administration can Communicate with one another if it's not, you know, at least open For them, let's let's call it like that So what we want to do is kind of like whenever we're talking about interoperable solutions Then we're talking about free software and that's why this act to go on the free software files Direction so to actually bring Importance that free software play to make digital solutions Interoperable and if somehow we managed to achieve this then you know then later by default Interoperable solutions would mean free software Solutions, but at the moment there is nothing on in the text on this direction and that's Actually One last question from here Hey To what extent is National Policy like this software development policy for Sweden for example to what extent does it actually apply? to European institutions Conform a different countries. What example the European Space Agency Which Sweden I think is part of it, but so Sweden has a software development policy to prefer free software and right But in fact, for example, the in the European Space Agency, they use a License that does not qualify as free software license nor open source So to what extent those policies, which I guess our country, right? apply to the European institutions Participated by those countries Okay, I mean I think this is the problem that we have at the moment that Until now then we have this kind of political Communication or commitments are by members say it's what they say that whenever they can they will use the software to enhance their ability or this we have this year of interoperable Framework, which is also like based on a voluntary basis for member states to take measures and This has been what I mean, this is what has been happening So we have Italy doing these brands with this really doing something else You know Germany doing something else, but the goal of this new Proposal is that somehow they want to harmonize these efforts and this will be a Regulation so it will be binding. So now members states have to actually take measures and implement or going or taking efforts to go on this direction because I mean the national level influencing the EU level, I mean, I Don't think that's you know, that's a way. So this is exactly what is happening. So a member states taking different measures independently, but with this act It will be some kind of like harmonize and it will be a guideline for members states to do it more You know in a more common way Do you really do you think that this is gonna bind the institutions like the European Space Agency? Which is paid by the European citizens and also public companies like Airbus for example We we don't have I mean, this is for member states Like the European The open source strategy and this decision and like from the Commission. This is kind of a Guiding the EU institutions So want to try to keep positive and believe that at least a member says that this should be this will be kind of like a start point for them to You know going on the same direction Trying to implement ways to monitor this progress and to actually see that all these nice ideas and activities Actually having some effects or actually doing something and at the moment, this is not the case I mean at the moment we don't have the way to monitor this So that's why we kind of like our demands kind of complement each other because there is no way to measure that without indicators Thank you, and thank you for working on this. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for your talk