 All right good afternoon. Good morning. Whatever it is Morning, so it's for one more minute. Okay. I'm Jim Christie from the Department of Defense cyber crime Center And this is the meet the Fed meet the ex-fed and meet the TV feds So so we're changing up a little bit this year. What we're gonna do is we're gonna start off with Spot the Lamer. Okay, you know, they've been playing spot the Fed for years here And we think it's only a fair play to turn it around and pick the The sun bitches out there that are lammers so Priest is going to help us out and he's going to so just when he picks you come on up here line up in front Get him priest Any volunteers Oh we got one up here God we have a winner Just stand right there Get some good-looking women up here priests. Yeah, okay No spot the lame Need about two or three more Okay, what we're going to do while while we find the last couple of the rules are we're all going to take a Turn asking each of you a question guy answer the question and Answer it loud enough over there. There's speaker the microphone trade over there Answer the question and then we're going to have the audience vote Who the Lamer is okay might win big prizes a Date with David McCollum Okay Would you like to ask the first question, okay, okay for the husband and wife couple here The question is where do you store your porn? Where does he store his porn ma'am so what you're saying is you are his porn I Didn't hear did she answer I'm gonna get myself one of these So where does she store her porn? It's actually in a shoebox under the bed She's old school Okay, David, would you like to ask a question the microphone's right there? Who am I asking here? Pick one pick one the gentleman right in front of me right here What websites do your neighbors frequently visit? Facebook Gmail You got a little Twitter action going on as well and there's a lot of gay porn surprisingly That might be my roommate sure it's your roommate sure it's your roommate. You don't count sir Okay, Andy I'll ask my crush question to the lady in front of me. What's the worst computer virus you had this year? I didn't have any my husband does the firewall. That's a bullshit Leon yeah, I'd like to go back to the couple again Have you ever flipped the dirty bit? There's no flipping There's no flipping was the answer John All right, we'll go to the guy down the end here Finish this sentence the internet is for porn a Very good question. I've got to go back to the first speaker The internet is for whatever we want to make it useful for Okay, Justin Let's do you have you ever had a lightsaber battle in public? Yes With beer cans Riley All right, I'll go to this gentleman right here How much money did your mother give you towards your DEF CON registration? It wasn't my mother it was yours Rich you got a question down there Rich had a bad night. So rich are you actually allowed to operate domestically? I had a great night He hooked up with a midget last night Jim can you explain the donkey I get the midget actually it was actually it was three midgets They're very dear friends of mine They're members of the little people of America. We're on Facebook. They're absolutely awesome They're hell of a lot of fun. Some of my best friends are midgets sir. Is that what you're saying? I Well, we're walking too far there priest No longer have don't ask don't tell so that's that's true Maybe that's what she tells you Next dude What are your plans for the first Saturday in May not that I'm asking for a date, okay? He is but I'm not This guy. Yeah, the one who looks puzzled Sadly, I'm moving Say again, I'm moving. Oh big whoop Okay, what we're gonna do is need the audience to vote You missed the blonde Okay, I'll ask for a blonde new skipper. What's wrong? Does your wife don't cuz she's here. I think Did your last romantic relationship involve any human contact? All right, we're gonna vote couple number one All right sit down The blonde You have been eliminated. You've been voted off the island. I'm sorry All right, this gentleman tough crowd. See you later This young lady Well, we're just gonna keep you anyway This gentleman raise your hand Oh, you're your history Okay, the next gentleman All right, we'll let you stay because I'm sympathetic next next gentleman raise your hand Okay, sir Come on right down here This gentleman here. All right, you're gone The old fart Dan Yen Okay, second round of questions starting with this gentleman here How old is your my space account? Okay, okay question Okay, David Here it comes have you recompiled your colonel yet today I Think I'm the wrong sex for that No And it sounds so much dirtier with a British accent too Okay for when you go to support supplies at night you head to the kitchen of the nearest late-night fast food place That would assume that my trip is for food so neither My drug dealer delivers When you exit the gate of the base is that a laundry a 7-eleven and then what is it madam dragons? Somebody help me. I can't remember. It's over the June So when you exit the base gates, what what's the first shop on the on the left? Just outside 8 on H Street, right? That's madam Yeah, madam dragon. You've been drinking today already We used to do spot the Fed but it's gotten so easy now That we're not really doing anymore. They're not very bright. So you ask You ask them leading questions like that you can kind of see the wheels turning and they say like something like that which is It's a bit hold that thought Okay, Leon last question Which do you best relate to? bachelor frog socially awkward penguin or paranoid parrot I'm not sure. I know what all those three are but the the paranoid parrot Maybe maybe that one's the one for me because I'm good at repeating stuff and yeah Actually the longer I've been in this business the more a paranoid have become every day Lamer All right, now we're going to do the final vote. Okay Contestant number one Contestant number two All right, you're eliminated contestant number three. See ya Contestant number four. I think we have a winner contestant number four So if you'd step right up here, sir, we've got a couple prizes for you. We have the Lamer t-shirt We have a Cybercrime Response team t-shirt Folks have gifts for you view it You know the last time we had an Air Force hookup the girl slipped in the picture Hey, you're missing out on it. You got some good stuff. I don't the best one This is a etched Old-fashioned drinking glass You can drink beer in it, but I'm hoping that you're mature enough now to start drinking whiskey And the beauty of this cup is that it's from NSA, so you'll never lose it Enjoy it in good health We also have a a paid vacation for you And have a nice fucking life Thanks, Brice Now what we're gonna do is we're just we're gonna the panel's gonna introduce themselves to you and talk a little bit about what they do And then we're gonna open it up to you folks for questions So the microphone's up here if you want to start lining up for questions David My name is David McCallum and I do a television program called NC is And I am Extremely fortunate. I just signed a new contract in a couple of years from now I shall be heading for my 80th birthday, so When I hear I think I'm used to jeans as much as anything and the care that my good wife Catherine here takes of me But what is fascinating about my life is that whenever you act and they do a job You get a script you get a part and you learn the lines you go along you do it But when it came to this particular show, I had never heard of NC is and I had never I knew nothing about pathology So you're looking at someone who has spent ten years Very much involved with the real NC is we've just in back come back from Washington and been down there with them and Been working with the Marine Corps Scholarship Foundation, and it's a whole new life that I have as a result of the show and Additionally, which is the fascinating part for me. I have become obsessed with the world of pathology having done full autopsy with Chris Rogers in in Mission Street in California and witnessed many many autopsies and Also, I've worked with commander Malik who's now captain Malik the chief Pathologist of the armed forces Institute of Pathology So my life is now divided into my life as an actor and my life as a crazy actor who just loves to do all this other stuff and I have been exceptionally fortunate in doing that and it gives me great pleasure to be here just to give something back From how much has been given to me. Thank you My name is Andrew free. This is I think by 14th Def Con Retired been a long time. I was much younger back then I'm retired internal revenue service slash Treasury and It's TSA you're supposed to hate not IRS We hate those some pages to IRS never approached you with rubber gloves on saying bend over What a shitty thing to do anyway Since I've retired I have a company called D tech those of you that are interested in Online sinkholes and research. I have a talk at five o'clock with Paul Vixie where we're gonna talk a little bit about what we did with the DNS changer stop pretty much now since I'm retired I don't have to worry about most laws or at least not the unimportant ones So I'm pretty much out an online vigilante looking doing a lot of research for Span trap passive DNS and some other other stuff My name is Leon Carol and I am a retired NCIS agent and I currently work on the TV show NCIS And I'm from Chicago, Illinois I'm a six year was a six year Marine officer and then 23 years in the real NCIS and there are a few NCIS agents out here in the audience pick out the Fed and My job on the show is to wave the bullshit flag I Get to read all the scripts that come in 212 and 213 now over nine seasons and Thank goodness. I don't get to wave the flag too often, but they do listen to me when I do I know nothing about computers my wife Jackie sitting down taking pictures right now Does all my computer work and thank God for that Hi, I'm John. I don't see I'd like to first thank Jim Christie priests and the rest of the Defconn sponsors Jeff Mosfer Giving us this opportunity to come here. I work at white canvas group. We sponsored the speaker party on the rooftop of the Rio I hope some people were able to make it. I Spend most of my time in the military in the SEAL teams Unfortunately, I tried to catch a bullet in 2007 which I don't advise I Still won, but it was a it was a long process In the meantime, I kind of switched gears and began doing a lot of different Digital operations both for the special operations forces and for other government agencies Make no mistake about it If if the government and or units that we work with Is out to find you they will it's not a question of Do you think it might happen? It's a question of it will happen and how much time and resources so We have some of the world's greatest and talented not just programmers, but creative minds I think at the end of the day Creative minds can be used both for military purposes, but also humanitarian for purposes education and Just making the world a better place so fortunate to be here and look forward to your questions My name is Justin whites. I currently work at the national white collar crime Center We are actually a nonprofit organization that's actually paid for mostly by government grants We have some grants from the DOJ and internet crimes against children task force My primary job is a Instructor and trainer I go ahead and I travel all across the country and we teach the state and local law enforcement Try to give them the basics and computer forensics Mostly a lot of the stuff I've done now has been focused more on the cell phones Which is fine, but I miss the computer stuff I don't get to do it very much and the downside with being an instructor is you end up spending so much time teaching the basic stuff You start to forget all the cool crap you learned Which is why I've been coming to Def Con for the last few years to at least remind myself that you know I don't have to just remind everybody what a zero and a one is Before that I was in the army for five years as a counterintelligence agent That's the only time I actually had any kind of investigative authority at all and because the army is the army I only actually spent about two years doing the actual counterintelligence stuff Which is where I learned all the computer forensics well beginning of my computer forensic stuff before that You know if you have the word intelligence anywhere in your job description. That's what they thought you did So in Korea I handed out security clearances in Iraq. I just read a bunch of reports. I Think that's about it next Good afternoon, my name is Riley Repco, and I also like to thank Jim and all the staff here at Def Con I recently left the Department of the Air Force the operations side of the house I got brought in from the private sector So when people asked me what it was like working at the Pentagon I usually tell them what an opportunity to serve at some of the finest 18th century minds around My focus is all about leveraging you all the wizards what I did for the vice chief Was to build a bridge Between the seeker us that have a requirement and the solver all of you out there sounds trivial But when you deal with a lot of parochial silos gets pretty challenging, but I left government I'm now at Virginia Tech as a research fellow, and I'm also building that box So I'm all about again connecting and delighted to be here and thank you very much Hi, I'm rich Marshall, and I want to be Jim when I grow up that guy's just absolutely phenomenal And there's some serious questions as whether I ever will I've had a checkered past I'm the only lawyer on the panel. I Specialized an information warfare law so that makes me kind of a unique individual in some people's minds How many of you've heard of eligible receiver 97? You know the scary thing is the number of hands that come up when I asked that question at DEF CON Get smaller every year, and it shouldn't Every one of you need to go back and Google eligible receiver 97 and here's why I Was a legal architect and led the red team for eligible receiver 97 And the issue was the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff at that time Did not think information warfare was real it was only a laboratory experiment and the idea of moving ones and zeros across the world to do good and bad was just not intellectually or electronically possible So they wanted to have an exercise to demonstrate that it was Okay We downloaded techniques from the internet Study them very carefully in the laboratory so that we would not have any unexpected Consequences and we use those techniques many of which had been developed by DEF CON graduates Vulnerability researchers, I hate the word hackers I always encourage people to use the word vulnerability researchers because that's really what you're doing We use those techniques and brought down a war fighting sink in a matter of hours now We had to do an awful lot of reconnaissance ahead of time The importance of that exercise was that it demonstrated to the senior military leadership in our government and to our top political Leadership Bill Clinton at the time that information warfare was real Computer security needed to have a top spot at the managed senior management level Now my transition point how many of you are CEOs out here? Yeah, not that many but a few Go back and tell your CEO how important it is to have computer security to protect the intellectual property To protect your business operations Most of the time when you use the word security, they think of guns gates guards and money that they never recovered They don't get a return on investment But if the CEO does not do his job or her job correctly in terms of protecting their assets They will get an ROI It's called risk of indictment rather than return on investment So that's message number one Message number two, and I'm very very proud of this as I encouraged an Air Force colleague of mine who led a very special Air Force team to come out to DEF CON Wear his uniform get on a panel and recruit from the audience He did he's now at Microsoft, but his legacy lives of the 67 people he recruited over two years at DEF CON Over three-fourths of them are still working for the Air Force now. They have tongue studs and earrings So they're civilians, but they're making a contribution And just as my former boss said yesterday, I retired from NSA in December after having been there for a number of years What you are doing is critically important The message that the press needs to put out is that you are making a valuable contribution to our economy and To our way of life and this is not a nationalistic sentiment This is a worldwide issue We're all over the world with this and we all need to work together to address this problem Third point and then I'll shut up Cyber education Stam education science technology engineering and math does not get enough attention in this country We provide sports scholarships for people who go into the professional sports and have a shelf life of five or seven years I think we'd get a better return on our investment if we do scholarships for people in stem At our major universities and colleges over half of the of the postgraduate the master's degree and PhD students are Not us citizens They graduate and under our current immigration policies. They have to go home They go home and create jobs and develop technology that we intern I I call that reverse colonialism I'm a strong advocate of stapling a green card to every one of their diplomas to keep them here Okay I'm Jim Christie Are you done yet down there? I'm with the Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center and talk a little bit about what they do We have the world's largest accredited digital forensics lab We have over a hundred digital forensic examiners We're accredited by the American Society of Crime Lab Directors Laboratory accreditation board asclat lab. That's hard to say We have a training academy and we train all the criminal and counterintelligence Investigators in the Department of Defense on how to do how to conduct a cyber crime investigation and how to do digital forensics and then there's other portions of DC3 but one of the to piggyback off what rich was just talking about them about stem We get folks coming to DC3 to be digital forensic examiners and they may have a degree In digital forensics and they can't meet our standards So what we've done is we've created a stem program called The Center for Digital Forensics academic excellence and we are partnering with multiple two and four year and graduate level universities to create standards for digital forensics and Certify not only the program of the school, but also certify the individual students so that We can produce Quality folks out there, and you're not buying a pig in a poke either as a private sector or a law enforcement agency A lot of you I've seen several of you have come up and talked to me this past week on our challenge We run the DC3 digital forensics challenge. We have about 900 teams from 51 countries currently participating I would I would encourage you to go to our website DC3 mill check out our challenge and And if you have kids Since since all of you have grown up here over the last 20 years and have kids now Get your kids involved in digital forensics force because we really need Quality people coming through Another thing that we have going for Defconn kids Where we've we brought in our team from DC3 brought in three digital crime scenes So Nico did a terrific job with the hotel and we have three suites upstairs And we have a digital crime scene each one and so the kids the Defconn kids are being scheduled And they have a half hour to do a search of these crime scenes So if you're interested and you have kids that are here, you know, please sign up for that one of the other things We have is an online an assessment on Digital forensics and cyber crime investigations that's called CSI cyber you go to our website and and we'll give you a link So with that what we're going to do is now open it up to questions and you're up first Actually, I had two questions, but if you're one I know but since you just signed your contract that I know I think duck duck He's gonna live I have seven grandchildren and they all need educating Here's my question You know how this is long ago before we actually had networking communities used to Try to do things to save the community such as like in Mekinos. They've changed their streets around so that the pirates couldn't attack them And now that we're in networking It seems as though, you know the army and all the other organizations they have their own farce each do them controls that and Like just recently about a year ago one of the army bases got hacked into and it made the news But anyway, this the the new thing that's going on is they want to take all these forests and collapse them down to one Big forest and when I look at this I just see it's a better way to get into everything And I wanted to know what your opinion was regarding collapsing the forests. I Don't see much security. No, I I personally think That building one single castle is a bad idea. I think it's bad strategy I think the future of security is a decentralized dispersed and otherwise at times Seemingly innocent-looking colonies of data. I think if we centralize we Look forward to and welcome extinction because we just kind of it's bad planning Thank you. I'd like to add to your point. I think your observations spot on this domain is man-made Okay, that means the preponderance of intellectual capital resides out there folks like yourself the various ecosystems globally We need to figure out as a means in which we are able to Grasp into those various communities in real time. Okay, so I think you're spot-on. I mean we talk about the mix Okay, the challenge here is the mix is made up of people like yourselves the patriots the wizards, etc That have insight and knowledge that we need to leverage the key is how do we do that? So I think you make a really good point Let me just kind of add up on observation Lawyers are peculiar in the way they think they think about analogies and When we look at the internet today and what it does in terms of information sharing and communication I looked back and I wasn't present at the time But I compare it in many respects to the Roman roads that were used for logistical purposes and Communication purposes that went from Rome all the way up to the Hadrian wall and just south of the border of Scotland I also look at the Silk Road The Silk Road was not a paved path It was a series of points and you had to know who to talk to to get from A to B to C to D and E Etc. Etc. And I'm drawing all of this from Marco Polo's autobiography The Silk Road was security by obscurity it worked The Roman roads was an open system and as long as the Romans Had collaboration with their neighbors to protect that pathway. They were safe But when they did not work together to keep that protected than the Goths the Vandals and the other gangs From us Europe came down and massive disruption of Rome and I realized that's a very strong simplification But as we move through this domain As my colleague mentioned we need to work in a collaborative way To help keep it safe and secure and useful for all of us Thanks expression Microphone because I could hardly hear her questions. All right, sir Yeah, I'm an investigator down at Fort Hood and I was wondering if to the other investigative agencies if you all are seeing prevalence or rise in incident in child pornography and if so is that because of the Utilization or is that just because of the thoroughness in your investigative techniques? I'll take a stab at that. I think that child pornography is probably the number one cyber crime everywhere in the world I think the Computers Enable that the technology enables the crime, you know way back in the old days, you know 20 years ago If you wanted to do child pornography you had to have your own photo lab You couldn't send it to write aid for development, you know So you had to produce it yourself and then distribute it by mail So us customs and us postal service were the ones that were involved in the interdiction of child pornography Today there is not a single person in this room that doesn't have the ability to produce and distribute world-wide child pornography and Unfortunately, it is a plague that that every law enforcement agency in the world has to deal with So Anything we can do to put these guys away, you know, if you see something say something notify the cops, you know We you know, but it is a plague Actually, let me add that the laws against child pornography Actually make it much more prevalent in some ways and that sounds like a stupid thing to say But the reality is that if you have possession of any kind of pictures You're subject to arrest The problem is that there was no real exemptions given other than for the center for missing exploited children So if somebody complains with ISP that they've come across an email that points them to a pornographic site The ISP is not going to go to that site to see because the mere clicking of that link puts the copy of their machine and Would subject them to arrest in reality? What happens is there's an awful lot of private Trust groups, I guess for lack of better term that operate on the internet to constantly feed Different people including federal agencies and other government agencies information and even in those groups They will not click on links if somebody suspects Child porn in one case I have a spam trap set up that I get about 10 to 15 Million emails a day on and I have all sorts of reg X's and Juristics that I use to look for stuff I will not look for child porn because I am not going to click on it and find out whoops it is So unfortunately the way they've done the law is made it much more difficult to detect because nobody wants to check to see if It's there kind of like a catch 22 Sometimes we get leads from ice so they'll say hey sorry what sometimes we will get leads from ice They'll come and say hey we in this area. We have these Individuals and then we'll do a joint Well, there's a lot of child pornography out there There's some fake child pornography, but it's been a problem It will continue to be a problem and it's made it's Exasperated by the fact that the people that are out there that are monitoring for things Will refuse to even look for to try and refer it to other people? Good afternoon. Thank you for coming about 13 years ago I worked for a software company that provided a Database that tracked gang members in California, and this was a non prosecutorial Database meaning you couldn't use it in a prosecution against somebody, but you could use it to Track somebody or investigate somebody and these databases are growing and growing and you know It's gangs or it's this or it's that and it's more guilty till proven innocent My question is what are your thoughts on this and is it valuable to you as officers? Or do you see it as an invasion of privacy? Be honest, it's all right It's tough because if you look at this and you think about this think about it in your mind when you answer the question These are 13 year old kids. Most of them are minorities who are in this database and they've done nothing wrong, right? So I haven't been out of the system for about 10 years I can tell you going back and being in LA which at that time was probably one of the They were the largest gang gang activity in the world The databases do help the officers on the street do get that information But you're right sometimes innocent young kids get caught up in that because of their Association so it becomes guilt by association, but I think long term. It's good to have bases We just have to be careful that we don't Give that moniker to young kids they carry on with them later in life Thank you First of all, thank you all gentlemen for taking the time to be here today and speak with us Hopefully next year maybe some lady feds as well as we have more girls in the other on the next panel Bricks, I'll be here to see them as well So I'll keep a question short and sweet mostly too rich from the NSA But I'm happy to hear all of your Experienced thoughts about this you mentioned that eligible receiver you spent a lot of time doing reconnaissance There was also a DARPA research about red team activity back from the 90s That showed that 80% of their time or the attackers time was spent on reconnaissance and intelligence gathering about the attack Not just the the actual attack time was 5% of the whole thing Do you think in this day and age is that still relevant or as the exposed electronic? Attack surface made the whole reconnaissance and intelligence gathering stages much easier for the attackers. Thank you Wow Things have changed a lot, you know the the understanding level Has changed significantly in terms of that issue. Let me give you an example a year after we did conduct of the exercise We were given permission to brief the National Security Law Division of the American Bar Association in Washington, DC and It took place the day after Galaxy 4 went off station now satellites as you know are Geo-synchronous, but they kind of wobble around like a bumblebee coming in for a landing. They just don't stay stuck The satellite got off track just a bit and so for that particular afternoon and evening No one could use their credit cards Because the credit card information was Bounced off the satellite to a processing center in St. Louis at that particular time You cannot also use what we call pagers and you'll have to probably google that I heard about those yeah museum maybe yeah So I'm giving the president you just before giving the presentation, you know You do the socialization bit with these senior lawyers and everyone was complaining about the fact that they couldn't use their credit card the night before and NPR which is always accurate with the news as you know Commented that the satellite had gone off site and that was the problem The general counsel for the company that owned galaxy was there and he said and listen carefully to what I'm going to tell you He said It did not happen. It was not galaxy's fault because if there'd been an issue he would have been paged We don't have that issue today You know people are becoming more and more educated Whether they buy a merchant associated with the internet and computers and I think that's a good thing I think that's a good thing It does open the door to a broader attack service But because we're smarter We should be able to handle that We should always be ahead of the bad guys and girls because we're smarter and I truly believe that and I hope that answers your question. I have a hard time hearing sometimes. I'm an old guy So I hope I answered your question correctly Well, partially, but I'm gonna let these guys ask their questions too. So thanks a lot and Yeah, could you speak up really that because we really are having trouble understanding the questions up here Acceptable. Yes. Thank you. So Generally federal agencies are staffed by well-intentioned individuals and so I was wondering to what extent Programs that this audience finds alarming are Considered problems within those agencies and if so what actions are taken to fix them? Well, we didn't track anybody at the IRS I couldn't answer that Let me let me let me answer that with a somewhat political answer and I'm not a politically correct person by any means but In the federal government anytime you You store data it becomes what's referred to as a system of records And in order to develop that system of records you have to get approvals like way up the chain So ad hoc databases of that kind of information whether it be Personal information or gang information or whatever never will exist in the federal government at least in the civilian side Without system records being advertised, you know publicly So the data that is stored is generally clear data It's published what it's used for how it's to be used and who has it where it's stored So you don't have these under the table ad hoc type databases sitting around and in order to general or to justify Any system records you have to talk to people up upstream of you and justify You know, how long you're gonna have the data how you're gonna purge the data Who's gonna have access to the data what kind of foyer request could be answers from the data and whether or not it's it's Gonna be permitted for any kind of like prosecution type stuff, so it just doesn't happen out of the clear blue sky and How about I don't I didn't work for DHS like you know, that's not that's an old chart, so that's a problem there With regard to your comment if you look at the military agencies, this is something as a retired military officer myself I mean, we've got the best World-class best fighting force in a free world We're so regimented think about that so regimented and therefore predictable That my challenge there that could be our nemesis especially within the cyber domain Riley I'd like to jump in on that one of the biggest areas that really shook the bureaucracy and and really rattled the Lattice work of plumbing and inside the bureaucracy with regards to data was the Arab Spring in social media There's this continued ongoing debates about Facebook and Twitter and what is public and what is private? What does this all mean at the end of the day though? You take in an online environment like YouTube that is in many cases Changing people's lives whether you're a potato farmer in soy Kenya That's able to find out that sprinkling ash on your crops saves you and your family money in lives Or you're using YouTube to learn about America or some other country or etc. So where does the social media? data fit into the existing lexicon and I'll tell you the government Just by nature defaults to we need to really look at this for the purposes of privacy That is the number one gateway discussion before any of this is taken into consideration. So right now I would say there's a there's a Continuing discussion and I haven't seen any verifiable resolve unless you guys have Where how do they fit this into the framework of of government data of for the good of saving people for for the good of? understanding there's a disaster or some of the other nefarious objectives, so it is it is something that is forever changing and And it's the nature of the bureaucracy to default on the side of protecting the people's privacy Let me also add that all of the really good data isn't being stored by the government Maybe with that with the exception of I to say because I don't know what they have But when it comes to a lot of the information that's on the internet There are private companies that make their living getting collating collecting and analyzing that data and It's very easy for somebody like when I was an investigator if I had a problem I could send the note out to a certain mailing list and say hey Does anybody have any information on this IP address and I'd have 20 investigators or researchers coming back Saying well on so-and-so date. We saw that address, you know accessing toward and we saw this address being used to Spend out cut whale mail and everything else probably one of the funniest stories I had to tell is that Very very early on IRS was one of the very first government agencies to actually get targeted by fishing sites fishing schemes and We had one that was in Japan. I just couldn't call anybody and get it taken down So I put a note out on one of these security lists that I was on one of these secret squirrel type lists that you know Only people that know each other get on to and I said I'm having a problem with this ISP in Japan You know does anybody have the ability to take this site down? Now I got a note back about five minutes later. It says hey, I had no problem. I took it down So I wrote back to him and said you know any chance you give me the logs of that I really like to see you know where the FTP logs were sent up To see maybe where we can track back the fishing site the actual source and he wrote back about 20 minutes later I said yeah, no problem. Here's the logs. Here's the data. Let me know if you do anything else And I wrote back. I said thanks. Are you the system administrator guy wrote back and just said no Let me add I know nothing Let me add one brief twist to your question I share your fear about those who collect information But I don't fear the government. I fear the private sector There is so much oversight Properly so on the government and in the United States. You're protected. You've got constitutional protections and People who violate that in the government are punished You do not have that constitutional protection from the private sector and I'm not going to mention any of their names Other than the ones I've mentioned already There are the ones you have to watch for there's something I learned very early in my career anytime the government tells you You should do this because it's good for you. They're lying. I personally trust the government less I do private industry having been there for 20 years Okay on that note You