 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa and to a first major conversation this morning. The federal government has of Nigeria has concluded plans to terminate a report say the presidential amnesty program in May 2023. Now, it was gathered that the Office of the National Security Advisor had directed the interim administrator of the amnesty program, Major General Barry Indiono retired, to commence the process of winding down the program. Now Indiono, who was appointed about two weeks ago, replaced the former presidential amnesty program head, Milan Dicchio, although no reason was given for his unceremonious removal, which was announced in a statement by a presidential media aide, Fermi Adesha. Now reports also say there was outrage yesterday over this reported directive to the newly appointed interim administrator of a PAP, that's the presidential amnesty program, in case you're wondering what that is. Now stakeholders including the Pan-Najah Delta Forum, Pandefa, the Ijo Youth Council, IYC, a frontline human rights activist in the state, Kola Edokpai, a leader of the amnesty program, phase two in Aqaibom state, Imo Okoko, and the Pan-Najah National Secretary of the PAP, phase three, Tam Odugo, they all reported to have said it would not be a good idea to scrap the presidential amnesty program now. The amnesty program was established, if you remember, by the Musa Iyadwa administration in 2009, in 2009 as part of the government's measures to, you know, stem the tide of militancy in Nigeria's oil-rich Niger Delta region, and it's come a long way from the days of Umar Musa Iyadwa. Now what exactly does this mean going forward for the security situation in the Niger Delta? We have joining us security expert, Hassar Stanlambo. Good morning to you, Mr. Stanlambo, nice to have you join us this morning. Good morning, I'm Colonel Stanlambo. Thank you very much. Good morning, how are you guys doing? I'm Colonel Stanlambo, since the apology is for that. If this is true, this move to scrap the presidential or to, you know, round off the presidential amnesty program in 2023, do you think this is the time to do that, having, you think it's around its course, and now that the Niger Delta agitation is actually over, that it's time to call it time on this amnesty program? Well, thank you first of all for having me once again. I think if there is any issue, it is a timing, I would say that is right or wrong. This administration is already at the tail end of its exit. So I wonder why, you know, at this point, you begin to want to, you know, shut down certain operations. I would have rather be of the opinion that, look, since it's this late, allow the incoming administration to take such decisions, okay? And besides, what has, you know, what has the aim itself been achieved? I mean, for what purpose was it set up in the first place? It also does the level of militants that was, you know, ongoing in Niger Delta and of course for obvious reasons who know why militancy, you know, attained a height that was no longer comfortable in the Nigerian state. Is it likely to get that region, have the youths here to become restless again and move into what they were into? I would say, well, that is left to our imaginations because frankly speaking, if there are no substitute or alternate program that will take over from this, given the initiative which the last administrator came up with, the Niger Delta Stabilization Program, if that is not allowed to move on as an alternate plan, then I'm afraid there will be a vacuum that would need to be filled, okay? Also in a situation where government is so reluctant setting up vocational training centers that would have rather occupied most of its youths, it tend to see that when you allow youths to just hang around, not occupied, the devil is likely to make use of them, okay? Well, so the next question would be what happens with continuity? I mean, it's a policy that was actually meant to curb the insecurity, especially in the Niger Delta region and right now, insecurity is still very big with us, especially at this point. So I mean, looking at that now, how do we get to that particular point when we say that you know, government is saying, hey, we're scrubbing this at the end of the day. Now what happens with the fact that there's a plan to relocate it to the nothing but the future of the country? That is the point I'm making and I'm afraid things like this, you see one, it's unfortunate that I don't want to be critical, but the point is that we don't go scrubbing a program as is without an alternate plan on ground. You must come up with an alternative, you know, that will take over from this program. Are you going to establish vocational training centers to get most of these youths well trained and make them useful to society? We live in a country where if you are building a house today, I tell you my dear, breaklers who come from the Republic, carpenters who come from Tobu and so on. Why? Because we don't have people with these skills. If you try engaging Nigerian hands at the end of the day, you are likely to regret it except you are actually lucky. Government should invest in all these areas. We've got a multitude of kids out there roaming the streets. As we speak UNESCO has just told us that we have about 20 million kids roaming the streets. I thought there used to be 15. Only last week I read through a UNESCO report and I was shocked. 20 million? What are we doing? You have 36 government employees, 37 in this country. If each state is to establish a vocational training center, training about 1,000 kids every year, that will make a huge difference. We don't seem to have people thinking in government. That is a problem. You can't scrap a very important program like this without an alternate plan on ground. Nobody is thinking. Just nobody? All right, Jesus. Stand level. Is this an amnesty program? Actually the word amnesty through this particular program that some have argued has been, permit me to use the word bastardize because people have said amnesty is a totally different concept altogether. It's not a program to, it's not a word that says they're going to pay you money so you don't fight. You're going to pay you money so you don't cause trouble. We're going to pay money so you don't break pipelines. We're going to pay money so you don't kidnap expatriates or kidnap your own people. We're going to pay you money so you don't throw dynamites. That is an amnesty some have argued. Do you think that having done what the government has done, bringing money into the situation to make it sort of like attractive, some would argue for people to engage in these acts so that they can be considered for the goodies coming from the federal government. Some have argued that crime has been rewarded and the young people in Nigeria that have been told they, if you can become violent and make noise and shout and throw something, government will listen to you and give you money. I want to talk about that in light of what we're hearing now coming from the PAP. Look, young man, the entire... You said what? Coffee. Oh, coffee, fine, good. I think I would have to share that. Coffee, speaking frankly, the concept I've initialed was faulty. The only point where money could have been brought in and that would have been just the leftist is or would have been at the disarmament period, okay, when you were asking them to send in their arms. Bringing your arms for episcule bringing will give you one million. For every general purpose machine gun will give you two million and so on and so forth so that you make it attractive and see how much or how many... Yes, how much of ammunition, arms and ammunition you can gather, okay, from these young lads who are out there in the creeks and creating all the mayhem. That is where the lure of the... It will attract them and they will bring out everything and you compensate them because it has to go incentive. After that the mandate of the GGR goes into place fully. All right, you immediately now commence the demobilization aspect which has to do of course with. You now are counseling them, giving them some form of training and so on and you move on from there into the reintegration level which now has to do with. You giving them some enablement and re-inserting them into society. What is the enablement? What is the enablement? The enablement now is that having trained them under the demobilization stage you now give them all the necessary tools of work beneath to commence. Just point to some of them to be able to hire offices or workplace, pay salaries of one or two or three individuals and so on. And this should monitor when you recruit one or two people who are in the job with you that is how they use the platform that is part should be able to take up the salaries of such guys and make sure they are paid. And you monitor and see that they have been productive. So that's why I said at the initial the entire package I think was a bit faulty but that could be corrected because I should speak right now and make to understand part goes about five billion Naira monthly from the revenue profile of the federal government. We could look into this and see how it is further fine tuned. But if the decision by government is that no, no, no, no, no, we've got to shut this down then you shut it down with an alternative plan. Yeah, but I mean it was going to bring me to my next question of issue of continuity because I mean government is a continuum that's what we're told. And if this program was actually bought by the late president Musa Yaradwa at the time in 2009, why shouldn't we have a continuity? That's one of the characteristics of government. Well, however, it seems that the government has raised a concern which we might consider like you've rightly stated that it's valid issue of revenue and the fact that this is actually taking a lot. And so how do we explain the fact that this is not just necessarily a revenue issue but it's an issue of saying there might not just be equity and fairness because also on the other hand, there's also a plan to say we're really kitten this. There's a plan to have this in the nothing part of the country. So is revenue really the issue or this is just one of the problem that we constantly talk about, the fact that we're divided as a country? Well, in between I lost you and I'll put the pieces together and see if I can respond. Okay, so I'll come back to it again. So now the government is saying that if you look at the revenue expenditure or what we're actually gulping on a monthly basis, it feels like revenue is the problem. But also my concern is that government should be a continuum. And if government should be a continuum, then it should continue because it's just one of the ways to tackle insecurity, especially in the Niger Delta that was introduced by the then Yaradwa government. Of course, late President Musa Yaradwa. Now we have, is it really the issue of revenue or is the fact that we as a country, it might just be an issue that we're further divided? Is it we're further divided along religious and tribal lines? Because this is a plan to relocate this to the nothing part of the country. So is really revenue the challenge of this, this continuation of the program? Or you have all the sentiments and interests? First and foremost, I think revenue is the major concern here because you would agree with me that the entire country is beginning to experience a downturn in terms of revenue. And the government is in a very tight corner when it comes to resources, especially financial. And it's doing all the things it can to see how much can be saved for it to be able to meet other commitments. Even though some of us have the opinion that all you need to do is look inwards and see how you can block all some of the leakages that are on there. You know, at times we see from outside government, we see the level of wastage that goes on in government and we just laugh and wonder whether these guys really know that this country is broke. Because they go about it as if the country is not broke. And that's how you find organizations like ASU, not taking their steers and most of us lending our support to the lands of action taken by ASU. Let me not digress, however. In answering your question, I will say that it is revenue issue. It has to do with the revenue profile of the country. And then secondly too, it is important for us to know that it's not as if this thing has been shifted to the north. But the situation up north in the north is, has necessitated a similar project to come up to. Okay, it's not as if it has been shifted. But I will continue to say the timing to close down this one is wrong. It is wrong. We must look at what actually informed this project in the first place and to what extent have we driven it as the process has gone on. My question would now be if revenue is the issue. I mean if revenue is the issue that we understand. We agree that is a major challenge. What funds would be used to fund that of the program in the north eastern part of the country? What are we going to get the revenue? That is the point I'm making. That is the point I'm making that the government is trying as much as possible to squeeze and see how it could find additional money. And so preference has been placed. Alright, I have to understand that. Preference has been placed. Okay, so you have concluded your... Go on please, go on please. Well, if you say preference has been placed, I would know if any preference is placed. All I'm saying is that the government has commitments on ground. It has misused the resources at its disposal. It is now finding itself in a tight corner and it is busy doing all the things it can do. Probably it thinks they should wind up setting programs. And maybe unfortunately in the Amnesty program happens to be one of those. They have a map maybe to immediately close up and things like that. I wouldn't just go and say preference has been placed. Okay, Conno, in the bid to look at areas of overhead of expense in a national budget to cut down to reduce to see how they can reduce government spending will you blame the administration for looking at the presidential Amnesty program bearing in mind number one, like you said over the years at least five billion has been committed to this program. Number two, it's been riddled with corruption. I mean we know the history of the heads of this program who've had issues. Some of who are your colleagues, servicemen, who've had issues, questions, probes, they've been removed, love questions surrounding their handling of the funds. Number three, the Niger Delta has the Niger Delta Development Commission. The Niger Delta has the Ministry of the Niger Delta. The Niger Delta has 13% derivation. You talked about the need to look at this part of the country to do everything possible to address youth restiveness and unemployment and every other thing just like you have in other parts of the country. With all the Niger Delta has, is that not enough? NDDC, Ministry of the Niger Delta, 13% derivation. Nine arguments, that's another side of the argument which I deliberately want to go into. Frankly speaking, I think there are lots of unveiled platforms in the Niger Delta which attracts funding from the federal force which of course somebody would have said that look, can't one of these platforms handle this? You have read out a good number of them. You see, at times, or let me say, the time when a region like the Niger Delta or South, whatever, may not cry marginalization from the federal government. I think it's over. Enough is being done. What we are now witnessing is a situation where Niger Delta individuals themselves that are in charge of most of these platforms have become part of the routine process ongoing. They have become part of the message. How can the region account for what comes into it by way of financial funding and financial provisions? It's so difficult. On the other hand, have you ever had the federal government, has anybody been prosecuted? No. Yet we claim we have an administration that's fighting corruption. I've not seen anybody from any of all these organizations or platforms in the Niger Delta being prosecuted. People say the amnesty program is in abuses. What have we done on those who have used it? We are really fighting corruption. This is the way to fight corruption then oh, it's intrusive. You are just asking people to come in and be corrupt. Government has got to be fair. Government has got to pick most of these guys, get with them and let the court of law take it. Thirdly, I will continue to recommend this. The earlier we reintroduce the debt penalty into our law books, the better for us. The National Assembly has got to think about this seriously. Otherwise, I can assure you sorry, one individual will jump up and sell this country out completely, pocket money and disappear. I will shall be here busy attending night visions. We have to call it a day. Interesting way to learn. You just got me laughing there. Thank you so much for your time. We will definitely look out to see where this goes. I think the thesis of what you are saying is that the Niger Delta stabilization program as put up by the guy who was the previous guy maybe should be maintained as well as gradually winding this down to look at other ways and other aspects of investment by the government serve the Niger Delta. Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. Okay, we have to move on now. Of course we have more conversations coming up. Mercy? Definitely. But as a way of equity justice and fairness is that if we say that we probably might be faced with the issue of resources and financing for the project then would it be necessary for us to have replication of a replica of that same program in another region at a time where we need to be very sensitive about our collectiveness as a country. We will take a break now and when we return we will have time for us to look at our second conversation. Please stay with us.