 Data and data ownership where data gets produced and I mean and also not wanting to lose sight of wow There's really amazing things that we can do with data now Right like the data that's being collected from the hardware devices and various things at this conference is amazing Right and we want to utilize that to the best possible way And so the human data commons Foundation is comes out of this There's amazing ways that we can combine and use data There's very destructive ways that data can be used There's all sorts of privacy and ethical concerns. This is a very You know, this is a burgeoning field an active discussion that's happening now I'm super thrilled to see it happening. You know, I've just heard overheard You know so many conversations here about data and privacy and where is it stored and all this kind of stuff which is just music to my ears and and so playing some sort of coordinating role in how that can happen so that we get the best possible results and Eliminate the worst possible results is the purpose of the human data commons Foundation Boom, what's up everyone welcome to simulation? I'm your host Alan Sakyan. We are at the transformative technology conference We love being here. There's so many brilliant people here. Shout out to our main woman Nicole Bradford We love you so much and We have the pleasure of now sitting down with Scott Nelson. What's up, man? This is my first time at this conference I sent down Our executive director of our organization last year to sort of recon it and she connected with Nicole and Nicole connected with her obviously and they're like, yeah, you guys got to get involved this time So I'm on a panel tomorrow to talk about data sovereignty privacy and and user rights Yeah, that's gonna be good one and what you were just teaching me a moment ago. We'll be unpacking that I'm super excited to be here We'll be unpacking that I'm super excited huge. Thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, we really appreciate it. My pleasure All right, so Human data commons really cool foundation. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about the conference We'll talk about the quantified self-report card. It's all very interesting stuff. I'm super excited for that Let's let's get to know more about you. So Who the hell are you? How did you even end up where you're at today? Ah, okay. What's our total time here? Take as much time as you want. Okay. Well, who the hell am I? Well, I've always been a computer geek Apple 2 plus I did my undergrad undergrad work in philosophy philosophy of mind and philosophy of science and how they meet or where they meet and then Started one of the first web development companies in Canada probably the first one actually and in 93 And it was focused all around actually ecological sustainability who was our focus I wanted to bring that technology and help that Those sorts of initiatives get out in front with the new medium. So I had that through the 90s Sold out of that that company And then I became a solo agent for the next few years got really inspired by the open-source movement and became what I call that a Technology steward helping progressive organizations again working around sustainable and ecological environmental issues to adopt open-source technology and Make make a shift to that technology for what they were doing and try and empower them in that way and then I got Got involved in Bitcoin in 2010 early User there that touched a bunch of things for me around privacy economics technology cryptography all interests of mine open source and I kind of jumped whole hog into into what was going on there and so I Invested a lot of time and my skills my tech skills are pretty good around building infrastructure around that and of course, you know Move the dial a few years and you know I'm have certainly a very different relationship to capital that I did back in those days so in that intervening time I've done a lot to sort of promote the digital currency and blockchain ecosystem and Looked for ways and also. I mean the other sort of big thing for me is about 12 years ago, I guess I had like a Psycho-spiritual crisis in my own life really opened up to Meditation That's when I learned about the integral model and the work of Ken Wilbur American philosopher Ken Wilbur greatly impressed by that That model and so, you know where I'm at now is and why I'm at this conference is it brings together so many elements? And you know, I think we all have a sense of you know There's some big problems that need to be tackled There's a feeling that you know You know, it's probably better to be moving quickly on addressing some of these issues rather than dragging our heels Raising human consciousness and everything around that is I mean certainly for me an important part of the solution Probably, you know the most expedient solution. So how we get there? And so I kind of approached that on a number of different fronts But you know the human data commons foundation is specifically to look at data and issues around data And I get how you got to where you are now Pieces together, yeah, it's very weird way, you know, yeah You you you picked you picked a lot of things that resonate with you know The integral three along with the open sourcing and the economics of things like Bitcoin and the freedom that comes with things like that And yeah, it's just all kind of you know crunches together to make what you care about now. It's cool I like it when it puzzled kind of seems like it's biased a little bit because I want it to make sense But yeah, you know, we are we are pattern recognition creatures, right? So when we can see a coherent parent, you know Coherent pattern emerging and I mean we're also humans So that means not everything we do make sense with this means and you know part of the Part of the impetus I guess or why I think this is so important is I really share the sensibilities of you've all know a Harari yeah around Around the ability for it to be used to manipulate us and how you know, we really have to look seriously It all right. It's totally and it's not just people people Act like it's ten years old with with Facebook and Twitter and stuff. No, this is even before that with the era of the Bernays and and this what was it against this? Psycho there no, no, it's oh, yeah a Freudian Freudians like for you and psycho analysis psycho analysis Yeah, and and then there's even before that is with the Like the food era and the foods and yeah, there's there's been manipulations Even for the Trojan horse letting in the Trojan horse. You know these things have been happening for Since we started Yeah, well, I have to tell you thank you for bringing that up because I actually skipped over that part of the story and that I When I got out of the ivory tower of philosophy in Vancouver where where I studied it My first job was actually the world's largest public relations Firm and I had no idea what public relations firm I had no idea about business about you know the media any of that stuff and I land in this office and we're you know You know gigantic multinational corporations. This is in like 92 and I'm like What is this work? We're doing we're like monitoring the media and we're like You know setting up these press conferences and these you know public, you know things and lobbying government stuff And finally a friend of mine there who kind of recognized my ethics. I was already you know, you know a tree hugger I was like already a Greenpeace supporter and stuff So, you know, this was all like kind of really hard for me to figure out and he's like here This will help and he slides a copy of Chomsky's manufacturing consent to me I took it home and I was like, holy shit Holy shit. That's what I'm doing. That's what's going on. And you know, it was a very Yeah, it was a huge awakening for me about oh, this is you know a really serious part of how the world works is to look at the masses as Manipulable and you know and that they're they're their behavior can be molded and sculpted and forest and so And it was my experience in that that made me want to start my own company actually Which I did in 93 when the web was just emerging So, you know that hit all my computer geek stuff But now I had this other understanding of sort of manipulating the world and quite frankly at least initially I was like, oh cool. I have a cool new Tool in my you know in my toolbox that I can leverage for the kinds of changes that I think need need to happen I always like it when entrepreneurs Say things like the normal model of the world that I lived in was not good enough I wanted to go and change it and make it better And so another thing that that you said that resonated with me. It was about how you You chose to to observe how how Strange it was when people feel like they are Superior to other people and they get all egotistical about it and they go and they try and make Manipulations and culture and economics and policy for their favor And then there's this other sort of mentality of of a feeling Equality and divinity to other people and that like equality and divinity and feeling that and knowing that You were actually talking about this before we started But when you baseline someone away from anger and fear and you baseline them towards a neutral state In a calm state a quantum a state that they can get re-baseline to a state of happiness and bliss, right? Yeah, yeah, so anyway I was really vibing on the juxtaposition between those two things as you were speaking so I wanted to mention it Yeah, thank you Yeah, and I mean you're alluding there I think to the what we're talking about but theory you taking people into a place of stillness Right, and then right action will emerge out of that. Yeah as being part of it Yeah, and that's a very important part of sort of our process and what we try and do as well So you're in the ivory tower. I mean well, I was in the ivory tower You know in back in 90 and back in yeah 1991 and then boom into the belly of the beast in this international public relations firm and then Then started my first company after that and I mean part of the reason that I started a company is because I had familiarity with you know the various Structures forms out there that one could sort of effect change with and You know I've probably spent I've always kind of skirted that line between nonprofits and and businesses and stuff You know it's it's it's much more highly developed now in terms of the whole notion of social enterprise and things like this you hear of But back then and still I mean for well, yeah, certainly back then you kind of had to make a choice which one you were going to do kind of thing and It was pretty clear that the corporate form is the one that has the most freedom to do whatever it wants in the world As soon as you're in other structures You're beholden to much larger populations or you know the government in certain ways for you know your 503 c charitable tax status and things like that and so you know Choosing the entrepreneurial route was was in part a You know there was a certain element of freedom to do what I wanted kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad again you knew you knew this is a very classic entrepreneurial pull of of wanting freedom to build the future and Wanting to change the war away the world works as they're not satisfied with the way it works So alright, so now take us to the first company take us to what you're building take us to How that brought you to human data commons. Yeah, yeah, so I mean the first the first company as I mentioned was About bringing web technology to the sustainability movement. Let's just call it that that included, you know Corporate government and nonprofit clients. So we kind of bridge bridge that world doing web dev for sustainability related projects Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, and again, it was kind of the first I think it probably was the first web development shopping. Yeah in 1993. That's yeah. Yeah, that's it was it was early And we in fact we were also Doing that with other computer networks that are out. We're around at that time Yeah, I don't know if you were into the bbs scene or there was also an international kind of I was born then Oh, you were yeah Okay, nevermind That's awesome. Yeah, I knew dropping that one on you would be like Like I don't know if you are to the bbs scene. I was like I was born then. Yeah, okay, nevermind. Yeah, we'll move right along Yeah, yeah I wasn't I didn't I didn't get to be there in the 90s when you guys were building the first web Yeah, and I mean so you've been immersed in it your whole life, right? You've never known life without without tech. Yeah, you know without that tech, right? Yeah, yeah So yeah, I mean I I can't really imagine I don't have children myself And I don't have a lot of sort of the younger-ish people in my life May I ask you why the choice for the children? Yeah, I mean again, it was tied largely to Ecology, yeah And yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean most people don't aren't following the whole like selfish gene thing They're not they're not really understanding that like making a copy of themselves into the world so unnecessary It's you know for some people they feel like it's it brings them the most meaning Yeah, their life is to do something like that and yeah, and for and for me I say this frequently is that I just I like to challenge status quotes a lot in an interesting way to challenge the status quo to be like maybe Medics and Disseminating ideas to billions of people is actually way more impactful and important for me to do then to pop out one or two Kids, you know focus all my time on those kids. Sonya. That's kind of like my little time Yeah, yeah, I mean I have to admit I was fortunate that my partner never wanted to have kids So that made it and you're still with your yeah. Yeah here actually. Oh, wow Yeah, that is yeah, you're very fortunate that yeah, yeah Because then now you're both focusing on your yeah, yeah, and she felt actually stronger about it than I did so that made it easier for me So that's it's great. Yeah, it's unusual for sure to have stories like this because most Women are getting categorized into buckets of like oh like wanting to have families and wanting to nurture kids And yeah, there's plenty of women that are like no, I don't want to get apparently it's one in five one in five interesting I recently heard one. I've every five dollars in the United States is spent on health care Another interesting statistic another interesting statistic. Yeah That's that's what I've heard from from a friend of mine who's researching. Yeah, but you know, I mean for me personally it's also the case that I think you know in terms of Perpetuating my genes. Well, that's not necessary. I can do whatever I want with my DNA And I can sell it to who I want and all of that kind of stuff That's part of the age that we live in now So that is no longer any sort of argument and the other thing for me too was wait a second You're saying that you're the age we live in is your it's already now We got to a point where you can just sell your sperm to people that need sperm the one sperm and Yeah, and you can your genes can live in a way where you don't even have to Nurture the child and somebody else wants to raise a child that isn't able to find this room and yeah And I I'm not at all making the claim that my DNA is somehow special But you live in the age where the genes can spread without you needing to have exactly that's very interesting exactly just that that point was really cool Okay, continue. Yes. The other point which I which I think is valid as well is that if I decided I Felt that I must be a father to some figure There's so many other opportunities to do that that don't require again me bringing another human into the world I can adopt a child. I can be a foster Father or there's all these other structures, you know, that would allow me to do that in a meaningful way that doesn't require You know, oh, we need more humans on the planet. There's there's a There's a there's definitely a difference in the bonding hormone for when you procreate versus when it is an adoption And I would I would like to know exactly what the difference in the bonding hormone like of an oxytocin would be But then you also mentioned ecological footprint, which I thought it's very interesting It looks like population is gonna stabilize around nine ten billion people looks like that and if fingers crossed fingers crossed we can handle that and There's there's a There's significant Impact when People choose to not have kids. That's like Not using Whatever egregious amount of diapers, whatever egregious amount of yeah electricity that's not currently again It's not currently completely sustainable by solar or something or right vision So so yeah, so it's a lot of resources that need to be used plastic bottles Of course, some would say I'm more than made up for it by getting involved with Bitcoin Which is pretty valid, okay, let's direct us let's direct us back to the human data commons. Yeah Let's go back there. That was good. That was that was a good tangent. I like that one. Okay. Yeah Okay, back to the human data commons. Oh, yeah, okay So my company open source steward and then blockchain getting into blockchain or Bitcoin so Yeah, and then you know the Psychospiritual crisis of 12 or so years ago and the you know, what was that like for you? What was that feeling? Well, I mean crisis. I think yeah important part of it Yeah, it's what it feels like Definitely feels like having the rug pulled out from under you in a whole bunch of different ways I think you're doing things in a way that's meaningful and then you get opened up to something that Makes you think that you want to do it a different way I would place it more in the category of existential crisis as in Why am I here? What am I doing? Yeah And also, you know, I'm Tied into sort of my my interest and understanding of integral theory is the idea that we go through a series of crises in our lives Yeah, as we kind of level up. Is it like every seven years? Is that what well? It's it doesn't tie to a strict schedule like that. Not totally strict. Yeah. Yeah somewhat like that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure For sure, you know right from birth totally Completely different person. Oh, I was in high school. Of course. Yeah. Yeah I wouldn't have one thing and you believe in development and yeah, you're into all the stuff, right? So isn't it weird when you look back and you're like, I would not have been my own friend That's so weird to look at that and I have to ask how long ago was that for you? Yeah 26 now, okay So you've got you've got a cushion there. Did you just have your 10-year reunion or I? No, no, no, it'll be I guess in a year or two. Okay 10 year reunion of high school. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a thing for you I mean, I went to my 10 years. Yeah. Yeah, but it's strange. It already is it's already strange I mean about I got friends that are still like working the job that they worked at when I knew them in high school Yeah, like really? But it's a good union job or whatever the algorithm is that keeps looping What where where is the insatiable appetite for a growth and learning and curiosity and Yeah, anyway, well to some extent that's a that's a privileged position to be in as well Right to be able to pursue those kinds. Well, we also see artists or entrepreneurs that choose to throw away all of the Privilege of of of being like I'll just do the normal path Which is a privilege in a sense because when you go down the beat of the less walked path You end up living way lower in socioeconomic status, but you find more meaning in your life and It doesn't in some ways Privilege you to have more time to contemplate and make and create So I we got to get past the scarcity we got it We're gonna get towards abundance where where people have time to contemplate there Yeah, okay, so so for you that back to that the the crisis the crisis. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean Kind of excuse me folding it back into the integral model because you know Each time you move through a stage a sort of an identified area where you've got a sort of a core set of Beliefs that are your orientation to the world each time you move to a new level part of what happens there is you Your old beliefs just aren't holding you anymore, right? Oh, yeah, right? And like you're saying, you know with your you're looking for yourself the values you had in high school, right? It's like That's not me anymore and but at that time those were the values that Provided the meaning provided the framework, you know, you were able to operate in the world with right? But at some point you outgrew those right those no longer worked for you You had to move to a new place, right? That's a crisis every time because the old values you're still trying to hang on to them You're still trying to make sense of the world with this value set yet It's not working anymore. And so there's a disjunct happening there and in integral theory there's certain transitions which are Much harder more things change and one of them is the one that happens for all of us in adolescence That's the first significant Change that we go through and that's why it's such a troubling time for us Yeah, I was trying to figure out what's going on and our new self is emerging and our you know Our old values which kind of held us together in our early teens or whatever Aren't working anymore the world's a different place You're inside of the hallways of the school and yeah, they're like so much different. Yeah, and then the other significant one I would say is often identified especially for men with a Midlife crisis, right? So that's another way and also have I think so But I think maybe in a different way or or something to be honest. I have not explored You're good knock. Yeah, you're good I've not explored that side of things to any extent that I can sort of speak with any authority about that But but but I am a believer that there are gender genuine gender differences like that. Oh This is not a debate, this is not a debate. Well, whoever is propagating I'm sick of I'm sick of the alt-right. I'm sick of the radical left Are you familiar with the intellectual dark? Well, I am very Hosted we hosted Jordan Peterson on the show That was he's Sam and Eric are great Joe is great Yeah, and yeah, and I here's here's something that I think it's great that we can vibe on this that that the the pursuit of truth although it is Under attack in some sense by cognitive ease and tribalism and echo chambers although it is There is a thank goodness a Somewhat of a footing in nuance in multivariability in equanimity in just Rebirthing the public intellectual. That's you know, that's our tag with this. Mmm. Oh, wow fantastic I didn't know that I feel so honored. I'm like so into the rebirth of the public See this vibe is really strong. Yeah, it is it's great. So Okay, where where were we pre I don't know how much fun I'm Oh, you're doing integral theory the lessons Midlife crisis is another sort of formulation. Well, no, I mean, I think the important thing for me is that and I think the the important thing for a lot of people, especially when they hit that second one in integral theory, there's only a small percentage of the population that Gets to that level is at that level and which it calls tier two Roughly Maximum kind of 2% of the population is there and for a lot of those people they're like I'm done with society. I'm going off to be a hermit or a monk or write my thing do art or whatever that's part of the that's part of the model and a lot of people probably Most people I would say I think Terry O'Fallon would say most people Get up into that and then it's so kind of overwhelming that they slide back It is extremely overwhelming. Yeah, you've been a the 10-day meditation retreats Vipasha. Oh, yeah Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of that a grid. In fact, I that's my first some of my first philanthropic Bitcoin work was Bounties for people who would complete that course for the first time. Oh, that's great I Love it. I love it That's so good. I just came back from my fourth one a couple days ago and One goes there With the oh, yes, no technology. No talking or eye contact and it's an it's incredible And it's like it's so profoundly Fascinating the way your creativity can be in by itself by itself and you train your mind and focus and everything and then you know You consider you consider The monk you consider the nun you consider Yeah, doing the complete silence and stuff and you consider this radicalism and stuff and they're they're It's interesting how many people consider and then how many people pull the trigger. I just want to say that I just want to say that yeah, so what is what does it mean to use a two percent go to that? Level of yeah of wanting to focus on their own. Yeah, and I mean what we're talking about here are sort of Stages of ego development is one way to think about it, right? so get to that state and and or get to that level and The part of the thing about being at that level is you're not so into social niceties you're not so into Serious nodding Okay, I have to I have to say this I recently started contemplating. I think it was over the meditation retreat what if Instead of with the first $30,000 Instead of buying a Tesla you gave 30 artists each $1,000 how would society drastically changed by doing something like that? Yeah, you plant these seeds for trees who shade you don't expect to sit in and what would happen Yeah, and I'm just I'm so fascinated by that and I'm really excited to propagate a culture like that. I Love you Elon and your people can still have Teslas People also need to you know, what is yeah, what yeah? Anyway, we've talked about conspicuous consumption a lot enough with the third yachts the third mansions, right? I think in the same Nicholas Taleb wrote Like something about like there's nothing More like eerie than the sound of an empty mansion on a Sunday night I was like Made me shiver a little on the inside Yeah, yeah, you already feel that way in your one bedroom apartment when it's like buggering your by yourself and you're like Like there's no community and imagine being in that big of a place. Anyway. Anyway. Yeah, we can Reviving on interesting What one of the one of the things though about that transition is that you become much more let's say intuitive is one one word much more in sort of tune with nature and tune with what's going on with other people you're getting all sorts of Signals and downloads from the cosmos that you're trying to make sense of and You know, if you don't have a community around you who is there and has done that and Has been there then, you know, it's pretty easy to think wow, I'm like losing my mind Yes Cuz and I mean, you know, if you're a seeker like I think we both are then at least you can probably hit the library and like Take me to the mysticism section and help me figure out what's going on here for me kind of thing, right? And so you do that, right? And I mean that takes you but you don't spend much time there before you end up on the path to meditation The link there is really really clear and apparent and then with any luck and fortunately, you know I've been extremely lucky as far as I can tell You know really, I mean You find a community that has been through this and has is there and understands what's going on has a model to account for it And not for me is what the integral community combined with sort of classical Buddhism Manages to do for me in my life Gotta have that community as well. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, once once you've Grounded a bit which takes a while for me. It took like two years Everybody goes through a no not the intuitive That's a fairly that's a fairly advanced. Yes, that's fairly We don't want to say advanced or higher really. There's a lot of controversy around this. It's leveling up But it's also just I think it's the the phrase. I prefer for it is like later stages of development So definitely not everyone's gonna get there. I'm sorry. Trump is never gonna get there not in this lifetime I Last weekend, you know, I don't know do something like really intervene on that guy So So wait, this is I'm such a logical person Yeah, I love math and I love probability and I love demographics So what would you say are the percentage of people that make it to late stage? Yeah, late stage and let's just let's just call it integral And I mean, I think I think the figures and really the authority here I would say is would probably be like terriel Fallon from Pacific integral. She's someone that I've that I've trained with Or probably Suzanne cook groiders, although I'm less familiar with her work But hers is very much around you go development and sort of tracking and understanding these these these stages Wilbur provided the sort of overarching framework The other thing that he's done, which is really really nice if you haven't read any Wilbur I really recommend I think you know, I usually recommend integral psychology That's a starting point for that because I think for any of us having a conversation like this We're already interested in psychology and we probably studied some psychology and what he does there Is he really does a beautiful job in my mind in giving you an easy to understand introduction to integral theory Which he's developed, you know in much greater extent in in earlier books And then showing how it applies to the field of psychology in particular for addressing some of the kinds of You know mental wellness and depression anxiety and sort of classical yeah around that Showing how it relates to you know, Jungian psychotherapy. Yes into some extent Freud although he's much more of a Jungian and then And then but one of the one of the beautiful things that Wilbur does which it's really I think is really sort of one of his central gifts is he then shows a sort of a cross cultural spiritual development or psychological development Work that's come from other cultures. For example, the Hindus have a psychology the Buddhists have a psychology You know these these these other cultures that have had a long time to examine the stuff And they've also come to very similar Kind of ideas around the structures and the fact that you can't become you can't go straight to enlightenment as a meditator without going through Reaching certain signposts or certain goals along the way, right? That's just the way it works Yes, and so, you know The levels build upon each other and the phrase that that he's captured is we transcend and include when we move So we don't reject what was there before us. Yeah. Our job is to bring That with us while we open up to a larger understanding of the cosmos and our relationships It seems to me that the way that you're speaking about Transcending and including is the It could potentially be the next The next evolution of human biology that that is the next form of natural selection Is that the ones that transcend and include transcend and include and continue that sort of evolution are? Are the is the next part of evolution? And then there's this kind of like this the sense of fear that I that I used to have When I used to speak a lot more about bifurcation of the species into the ultra wealthy and the ultra poor and and Especially with exponential technologies and whatnot and so that That that mentality if if people carry if people still carry a occasionally I'll just throw a little a little needle in the haystack and I'll say something along the lines of well Maybe it goes against evolutionary pressure for me to give someone on the street twenty dollars And that's fucked up And it is it's really fucked up, but it's um, but it's also It's a it's a it's it's altruism that will never be reciprocated and That is something in evolutionary biology that typically does not work out for the fitness of the Of the person that is attempting to Potentially if you're trying to benevolently impact billions of people and give them sustainability and energy and Education and yours for some reason distracted by giving people on the streets 20 bucks or food or whatever That you may not attain a certain level of fitness with wanting with what you can achieve with Impacting the world because you're focused. It's kind of like the whole you're having a kid instead of focusing on Mimetics and on some bigger picture stuff So there's all this nuance to that conversation, but I like how you said transcend and include transcend and include That's very interesting and another one that I think you'd like is Whenever whenever I hear the superiority complex arise Even within myself still I I just start thinking colors colors on a color wheel colors on a color wheel all colors Not blue is better than pink is better than green is better than orange It's just colors on a color wheel and the wheel is very important, right? It's not a hierarchy To wheel and the wheel even spins. Yeah, yeah, whatever color you want facing up Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, this is so interesting. Okay, so Continue where you are at yeah in integral theory and how that relates to I really want to make sure we talk about data Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and let's so let's roll into after that. We'll go into the conference and then yeah Quantified self car sure for a car great. Yeah, so so I mean just just to sort of wrap up I guess a little bit about my sex spiritual crisis Allowing Allowing that to sort of lead me into finding a community and finding in particular this model with this understanding and this developmental theory was very helpful and then I Think I yeah, I don't know if this is human tendency or I mean I think I think it's probably is human nature a bit that you know when we feel When we feel gratitude for something we want to give back to that and so I feel a fair bit of gratitude for that community and that that model for helping me understand what was going on for myself in a way that was not pathologizing it was You know extremely liberating to to do that And so it's like okay. Well, there's something that I think others could benefit from right? I mean, it's like it's like the passion right when I came out of my first of a passion. I was like Everyone should do this I've modified that somewhat now. I think if you're at risk of psychosis probably you shouldn't do it But pretty much everyone else should should do it and and that was the nature of my my bounty program I was like spreading the word like hey go do this and you know So And and so looking at ways it can give back believing in the sort of the veracity and the utility of the model because the model one of the things that's I find really Wonderful about the model is it's both Descriptive in that it describes the world and the way the world is and helps make sense of it But it's also prescriptive right if you have this sort of this this maturation that We go through naturally and it makes sense because you're moving towards more loving more open Taking on additional perspectives in the decision-making that you're doing you Getting to a place where you can flow With much more equanimity through situations and make decisions. I mean why wouldn't we want everyone to be there doing that? And if there's and if there's an understanding Oh, you're gonna go through a series of crises But oh here's practices and things that will help you through these crises So it's not such a crisis as it was for me It's more of a you know a little hiccup or a little speed bump there rather than oh my god two years You know flailing around wondering what's going on Then I mean it just makes sense that that's what I should be doing with my time and so And being a computer geek having this understanding of of the world You know apps and their power and what can be done with them? I have to admit I've watched this whole social media thing with quite a bit of concern. I Just deleted my Twitter account after ten years never been on Facebook You know played around a little bit here and there, but I'm just not convinced Especially in its current form and part of it is you know as we've seen that you know, it's just way too easy for Bought armies to command these things and control these things right and so we need to take a serious issue at you know How can we make these so they can't be manipulated in this way? We all want to have genuine communication and be able to make decisions together and to use the amazing power that the internet brings to us But it can't be controlled by a troll bot armies and all this kind of stuff and in this way and scammers You know, I mean if you spend any time in the cryptocurrency space It's just right with scammers especially you know when when the markets are you know Doing their thing that they did last year, which by the by the way was like the fifth one of those that I've been through so I'm chill So So, you know data and data ownership where data gets produced And I mean and also not wanting to lose sight of wow There's really amazing things that we can do with data now, right? Like the data that's being collected from the hardware devices and various things at this conference is amazing Right, and we want to utilize that to the best possible way And so the human data commons Foundation is comes out of this There's amazing ways that we can combine and use data There's very destructive ways that data can be used. There's all sorts of privacy and ethical concerns this is a very You know, this is a burgeoning field an active discussion that's happening now I'm super thrilled to see it happening, you know, I've just heard overheard You know so many conversations here about data privacy and where is it stored and all this kind of stuff which is just music to my ears and and so playing some sort of coordinating role in how that can happen so that we get the best possible results and Eliminate the worst possible results is the purpose of the human data commons Foundation That feels so good. I love it. I love it the There was a Completely digital AI reporter and that was on the video was China. Yeah, it's just all that one. Yeah, and yeah It's all it's it's hilarious because they it's released as a you know a digital reporter for now and then soon it'll be Xi Jinping, right? Yeah, or the president of China or it'll be the Donald Trump or it'll be Elon Musk or whatever it'll just be Leading figures and so here's data being used in a way that is manipulative Then there's you who's saying that let's pool together our efforts and resources and Knowledge and find ways to put together the data in ways that are positive and benevolent and helpful Yeah, yeah beneficial to humanity and And when I think about that I think about How even if the good actors do their thing There still needs to be some sort of a way for bad actors to not be able to do Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a it's a real challenge and no one's figured it out for sure I mean, I think there's I think there are some interesting technological Solutions we should be looking at but it you know That's only part of it only part of it is you know, can we bring the engineering mindset to I think Homomorphic encryption is a very interesting Possibility for you know storing data much more safely and yet still allowing us to draw the inferences out of it That we can use for machine learning and statistical analysis. That's that's one You know apples, you know a leader in Differential privacy, which is sort of another statistical approach to how you might be able to you know Use the insights that you can get out of large amounts of data while still protecting the privacy of the individual That's another blockchain. I think is interesting as well And I'm you know fairly knowledgeable in that area and and have I'm actually a venture capitalist and several Firms that are doing interesting stuff like ocean protocol. I don't know if you're familiar with that one or hollow chain It's an interesting approach as well There but that's that's not the whole of it. I don't think I don't think You know, I think it's got to work hand-in-hand with With a Process that is Much more inclusive because all of those if we just go back to the integral model all of those reside in the lower right as Technologies where it's difficult theory says you get the most complete picture And you get the best basis for what we may call the right decision is if you Examine it from all four quadrants. That's what we need to do And so, you know, the real the real piece that you know human data commons is doing and it's sort of my personal passion is to is what we call integral praxis How can we get those people who are collecting data working data making decisions around data? to Use a process that's much more inclusive much more holistic to make the decisions about that that has to happen Report card now if you want let's do it Yeah, so so one of the one of the good segue Yeah, one of the one of the artifacts and one of one of One of the ways that we approach this is to we produce an annual report card on the quantified self industry So we go through sort of the top players last year. I think there was 50 in our report So we just you know, we You know look go from everyone from Google and their Google health and you know, Garmin Strava and you know some some of the big names Fitbit and So on and so forth down to many smaller players as well And of course the this field is growing So there's more stuff all the time Some of the ones that I see at the conference here are in our report We're in our report last year and also in our report this year last year was a very It was our first one and it was a very subjective report So we really looked at it from the perspective of somebody coming wanting to Use the service and what their experience would be with understanding the privacy policy understanding how the data was being used what they were getting in return for that data and this year we brought a much more of a Quantified approach to it in that we brought in a Statistician to help us, you know sort of ramp up the the quantified side of it So it's it's much more balanced and nuanced and then let's talk about what it's some of the questions are on the yeah So I mean the main questions are What What rights do you give up when you use this service or use this hardware and the data that's being collected from it? What control do you have over the data that's in there and is Is it respecting of your privacy or you know does the data just disappear and you have no idea What happens to it or how it's being used is that is it how it's being used and stored and all that kind of stuff Being told to you in clear language that you can understand And not 66 pages pages Exactly, so we're rating all of these Companies on exactly all of these things and then the last one which is kind of near and dear to my heart in terms of the project that we just mentioned which is the ability to aggregate this data and draw you know insights from from you know Combining it with other data sources is is that a feature or a function that the site or service allows you to do? Can you export your data out of there or can you say hey? Garmin share my data in real time with these other services or even like provide me with my own API to query that data myself because I want to build something on it, so So they get it they get an overall score for how they rate on on all of those those things Yeah, because yeah, I mean for obvious reasons I mean you know for the directions that we want to go with with this data and for and Also a big part of the of the report card is to show who's doing the best show Who's doing the worst show where you are in that and I you know The hope is people look and go wow clue, which is a European I don't know if you're familiar with clue it's a it's a it's a device for women actually and Produced by women and it has by far the best score in part. I think because quite frankly I think it's a it's a female running yeah company and that it's European as well It's like seems to be the killer combination in terms of you know Doing all the right things in all the right way You you mentioned this earlier. I want to know more about clue I was just I was just thinking about how ridiculous it is that we can't Query our own data and yeah, yeah, and be I want to make things with my day Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean and I mean this is the kind of the worst Who ranks the worst? Oh, it's a it's a you know, Chinese advertising Yeah, which produces a wearable, right? And so Why do why do the companies fill out what what's their incentive to fill out the Quantified oh They don't fill it out. Oh, no we go and research it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah And though the only thing we want from the companies quite frankly is you know if there's a company that wants to be included We would love to know about them, right? So there's probably a bunch here that are not in our program We weren't aware of them. Also. I mean, we actually have fewer Companies that we examined this year because of GDPR what we found is during our research period We were doing our research, you know collating the data and stuff And then when we went back for a second pass through to just verify because that's part of our methodology, right? Is to have two two sets of eyes on it and stuff Lo and behold a bunch of stuff had changed. Well, it was GDPR, right? There was a whole rush of you know Changes that needed to be made in policies and all that kind of stuff as a response to GDPR So it'll be interesting to see what the results look like next year actually too because I where can we find the Oh, it's it's all available for download. No nothing required human data commons dot org You'll see it right on the front page. Yeah, I'm links in the bio Go check out human data commons. Org and go check out the quantified self Report card. It's brilliant. I love it. I want to I want to if it's okay I'll just drop two more things that were yeah, and I want to know your long your long-term vision of The data and yeah, and what would be ideal because it sounded like that The highest scores on the report cards might be ideal. So yeah, yeah, we haven't mentioned the conference, right? No, there's actually sort of two other Well, we talked about the conference a little bit if you want but but but you can you know to get a good Conference happens in Vancouver happens in Vancouver We've held it in August last year's but this year. We're actually moving into the spring so that it actually doesn't Conflict with the research period on the report card as well because we are a small staff Yeah, it was kind of doubling up Yeah, look at the same time We want the report card to continue to come out in the fall because then our sort of our social media campaign or our PR campaign around it is to try and make it part of purchasing decisions for Christmas presents, right? Fantastic idea. Yeah, you know applying that kind of pressure. Yeah, and I mean vote with your money It's not just it's not just you know beating with a stick. It's like hey, this is fantastic You should you're considering this buy this product instead of this other product because it's you know It's so interesting that then that if we can eventually have a star rating system That's exactly so that's that's something that's been sort of back in my mind for a while is and I mean the the Model that I I think comes closest is the leads System for buildings first building sustainability, you know, it's a voluntary system You know, it's well understood. It's not super complicated. You know, you're looking at buying a place or leasing an office Lead gold. Well, it's easy to look up and see what that means and and you know And it's consequently because it's not something at least in most jurisdictions. That's legislated. It really has been a hey You know Do this because it's the right thing to do, right? And so I mean at least in Vancouver now all the buildings these days have are saying what their lead certification is right and the You know the top top leads are the ones that people want right because they want to be identified with that So we're looking at implementing You know with that sort of voluntary notion, right and making it a standard Which is like a community standard rather than you know, just some imposed from above kind of thing and you know I like the community Kind of like crowdsourced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, decentralized as much as possible Interesting and then what was the other one so the other one which is is which I can't speak with great authority of because it's actually Not my idea. It's actually the idea of Rochelle Fairfield who's our executive director And so have her on the show and she's you should have her on the show. Yeah, that would be great To talk about this idea in particular so so, you know data is is the Basis for machine learning. Yeah, right? And that's in part why there's such a rush to get our hands on as much as possible right and machine learning and you know the possibilities of AI and how AI gets used And Sort of examining some of the existential risks around where this might be going and Elon Musk is you know, really really big into this as well And it's very controversial, but you know, we we think that There are going to be some big problems that come out of AI and and to some extent we're seeing some of the smaller ones I don't know if you saw the the Amazon thing about a month ago where Amazon had created this this machine learning AI thing to Scour the web looking for candidates to approach to about hiring And so they least you know release the AI go get us candidates and it comes back and Somebody you know, I don't know how long they've been running it They've been running it for a while actually and you know, so it was part of their hiring process, right? Like this it's the lead gen. It's doing all this stuff. Lo and behold somebody does analysis Well, things completely biased against women Like there's you know, all other things being equal. It's it's So they've got you know, was that was that basically a sexist AI that they were using was that Well, what kind of a position were they looking for were they looking for you know? Well, that's I mean, there's a lot of other variable. Oh, there's a lot of other variables, but you know ostensibly, you know when it was revealed That this was what was going on. They actually They're to their credit their response was Verify those results and we're like, oh, this is right and they pulled it. So it's it's out of their process So, I mean, that's just like a mine not not a completely minor example, but it's an example of of You know an AI that's been developed based upon data and set off to do its thing causing a problem, right? I mean, you know, it's it's it's increasing the the the economic disenfranchisement of women Right, or Amazon or for just minority groups around the world or who knows, you know, there's lots of other examples of genocide in Myanmar Yeah, yeah example, you know, so and I mean, there's a there's a really important So to study our book on this by one by the name of Is it cat the McNeil? Called weapons of math destruction. Mm-hmm. So she is another sort of statistician Who's gone through and collected lots of examples of these things these algorithms which come out of machine learning and You know based upon data that are doing You know leading to unjust policies and unjust unjust procedures. So You know to some extent, you know now's the time to be tackling this now's the time to be talking about this now's the time to be coming up with a more complete way of Building these things and that's what again what I think infocal praxis really brings into these kinds of things Also knowing thyself Knowing thyself. I mean well, well, I think maybe we can wrap with you. You've all know a harari in his You know his his claim that we you know, we need to know ourselves better That's the only way that we're gonna be able to resist the manipulation That's you know coming at us now and is just gonna get even better and better and better because of all of the data and everything being collected and understood knowing ourselves both on an individual basis and also Knowing the forces that may be attempting manipulate us and also knowing the As best as we can making communal sense making and with that then having some sort of a layer of Foundation that we can move forward with as we attempt to be stewards of this earth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah So so the final idea just so I can wrap up This is a What we're kind of the calling an AI cleanup fund and so ha Perfect ocean cleanup AI cleanup. Yeah Yeah, so I mean, I don't know how familiar you are with the US Superfund program Yeah, so Superfund, I mean so during during the industrial revolution, you know There was all of these like industrial sites set up all over America, right? Like chemical plants And then those companies went out of business But they left just oh, yeah, massive. That's right problem, right? And so the government's response to this and I think it was probably Jimmy Carter I would guess I don't know who else it would have been Not that there weren't other fine presidents, too But Was the creation of and maybe it was ringing The creation of what they called Superfund and so it was this massive pile of money to clean up to clean up these things where you couldn't You know, there was nobody left to see that's an easier thing to clean up because it's as though the bad actors Yeah, come and open those up again. Yeah, yeah, but with an AI. Yeah, Superfund. You may have bad actors Totally, there's a lot of things that work out and I mean we In part, you know, this is this is my this is my PR background lighting up here Because what I like about even the idea of an AI cleanup fund is the effect it has on people just when they hear Oh, there's an AI cleanup fund. What does that mean? That means there's gonna be a mess from AI Very likely that needs to be cleaned up So it's already having like interesting the nomenclature get drilled into the Exactly, I like that. That's a big point AI cleanup fund and then people are like, oh, it's gonna be a price Oh, it's a more notion that it's a problem in many ways. I like that Yeah, or it could be a problem or we should at least have some insurance for things that may come out of it Which are yeah unintended consequences of yes, what we've done What is your long-term view on data? I like to think of a world where the data is all completely transparent and it's All completely to be able to used in whatever way possible That there's even if you're Metatranscriptomics and yours and Paula's and etc are all available then I don't think that it is It could potentially make it easier for us to just have data as an as an open Yeah, I mean the issue I think is there are going to be and you've all No, I already you know calls them. He's like there's corporations and governments that want to manipulate you and You know the more data they have the easier it is to manipulate you Well, there's also a level of leveling up in consciousness that occurs that those companies Hopefully buy Millennials and Gen Z years and even younger people that are coming in that say that we will not be a part of what you're doing Yeah, yeah, hopefully that's what happens because then they die for for not Changing for not. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean I think what we're seeing with Facebook right now is really interesting I'm sure you probably saw the stat like 44% of like what is it 18 to 29 year olds have deleted the app off their phone in the last year It's like really 44% in America But I mean if that's true, that's I mean they've got to be freaking out at They have a lot of other interesting trains that are going like with virtual reality and yeah There's there's a lot of other things that are going on there that but I but I agree with you. I think yeah So that's I think I think we're I think that would that was that was super duper deep across not only Human Data Commons, but also just the just the sheer like playfulness of us being able to talk about about Leveling up and about all the nuance there that there's just really good to be able to sit down to discuss. That was yeah That was fantastic like I was top-notch. That was super fun Yeah, I I should say you know the other the other thing You know in terms of the the notion of leveling up. I am somewhat sympathetic to One of the people that I work with in this area, I mean, I don't work with them directly, but you know, he is a figure and you know, he's quite Concerned about the notion of leveling up because he feels that To even hold that notion to carry that notion is a form of violence. It is Yeah, yeah, I know so, you know, that's and I haven't I mean I just bring that up because I think it's I think it Has to be part of the discussion as well. So I mean so could seeing things as a hierarchy could be viewed as like a Violent for sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay, but I mean at least I mean the integral model I mean it it It acknowledges hierarchies exist and says they make perfect sense in certain circumstances, right and certain conditions, right? Yeah, I think it's yeah, that's that's appropriate and it's I think that's ultimately the same way for You can apply similar thinking around Data and how it gets used and how much control we're gonna give, you know, yeah So yes Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thank you for this has been super fun such a vibrant discussion. Yeah Likewise, this is where you based. Are you here downtown San Francisco? Okay? Where the point studios? Yeah, and you are Yeah, when when when you're smart people come down here will feature them when we go up there will yeah Do you come to Vancouver? Well, we'll get you to part-time next year. I would love that. I would love that. We could do some great interviews Yeah, that would be a lot of fun in the spring coming up then. So yeah coming up Yeah, I'll connect you with for shell are awesome RED. The report card is coming up, right then The report card is was released last Friday. So it's it's a report card were released last Friday Fantastic, definitely go check it out links in the bio everyone. Thanks for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it Give us a give us your thoughts in the comments. We'd love to hear from you. Also Definitely go and build build build go create go manifest your dreams build the future Thanks everyone for tuning in much love and we will see you soon