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I'm fine sir thank you. First and foremost thanks for coming on the show. Not a problem. Old school legend in the streets, underworlds, flooded the streets, drugs, you've done four sentences, one of your biggest was over 20 years, very well known, very well respected. You look amazing for nearly 80 years old. So fair play, a man who's lived that life, tried to make changes. You've also got a book out soon which will plug straight away. What's your book called? It's called members only and that's because of the the days when black people went to clubs and the bouncers put his hand across and say sorry, members only. A lot of racism then. Oh very much. I mean the racism was unbelievable. I mean as a kid I used to go to Anfield, I used to hate me. You get 10,000 people standing. If you're standing by a nigger clap your hands. So much hatred. Yeah. Why does that still upset you now? It upsets me because it shaped my whole life as a child. I don't think I'd have ever gone to prison if I had to be for racism. What I wouldn't have done anyway because we went to a dance hall and they said we don't niggas coming dancing with our women. So the next week 20 of us went up, batted them and Jordan the General Malay, two guys got stabbed, two stitch stab wounds. That was it and I was one of five who got arrested and ended up in Boston. That's what the catalyst was for you to then before doing anger, rage, trying to not get one up on yourself but just trying to survive against people who hated someone of colour. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's fucking crazy to think though how dark and deep racism was. Listen it's still here. I'm still here. People think it's a weird... In Scotland, if I'm honest, I don't see it. I don't see it in the streets. I don't see people being racist against each other. I don't generally don't see it in Scotland but I know people from England and how bad it still can be down here. Especially I've got American friends as well and they see how bad it is over there. Oh yeah. I've got two sisters. I had three, one died but they say when they come over it's still bad. Sad to think. Yeah. But before we get into everything, I would like to go back to the start with my guests. Get a bit understanding about where you grew up and how it all began. I was one of 11 children. I was a number eight. We were born in a two up two down house. My dad was a chief cook at sea. He was there a way for like three and four months at a time and brought up by a mother, a housewife, 11 children and she did her best. As I say, it was a cockroach infested house and that was it. We just grew up. We had a good childhood, plenty of food, plenty of loving, plenty of care and that was it. How was your dad treated at sea? He was good at his job. Other captains used to try and poach him and he had racism and obviously my dad came in 1920 so the racism then was even worse and he used to fight it every chance he got. He used to tell us those kids, don't let them get away with it. Fight it, fight it, fight it. Because I watched a film. Who was it? I think it was Men of Honor. It was called Cuba Good Engineer. I think he played the part and he was a chef but it was a true story. It was a true story. He lost his leg but the bullying he used to do, he used to fight everyone else because he was a cook but he wanted to be a fighter and then I think they started blowing up the ships. He grabbed a gun and ended up becoming a hero but I think he lost his leg. I think he lost his leg. And he was the first black man to be an underwater. Robert De Niro, unbelievable film. I think it's a true story for anybody. It was good. And the short shit that he went through, lost his leg, they tried to say you're not good enough. He still fought against them and beat them, fighting his whole life. This was like the 30s and the 40s, unbelievable. Did you go to school? Yes, went to Granby Street secondary modern school from age five to sixteen and that was it. How was that? Well in those days you were just given the basic education, taught to be factory fodder and basically told you were going nowhere and that was it. Were you doing any bad stuff then? A little street pilfering and things like that but nothing major. Nothing major. How was it having such a big family? That was the thing then back then. It was six kids, eight kids. Families had a lot of, mums and dads had a lot of kids back then. Did you feel the youngest in the family? No because I was in number eight and had three below me so that was it. Was it a struggle, poverty? We didn't even feel the poverty because as I said my dad had got good wages and my mum managed well, my mum was a good cook so we just came home from school for dinner. And that was it. We didn't really feel the poverty. How was it with your dad? Are we all the time, did that play an effect on your life? It did when he came home because he was so strict. Yeah, my dad was a typical African. You did as you were told, that was it. You didn't answer back, you didn't question, you just did as you were told and that was it. It's changed days now mate. Fucking hell man. The shot that you see now, do you see the change from the 40s to now? Well, my sister-in-law has got dementia in the States and her own kids won't look after her. She's coming over here to live over here with a Sharon's sister. And to think that children won't look after their mother when she's ill, I just couldn't count on such a thing. Just could not think that my mother was ill, I wouldn't look after her. What do you think is missing from this generation? Discipline. I mean when you got disciplined, you didn't like it. But now I appreciate and I understand why my parents were as strict as they were. When's the first time you get into trouble? I said first time I got into real trouble was the dancehall fight. We were told we didn't want niggers coming up dancing with our women and that was it. I mean I said to the barrister, five we all got pleaded not guilty at Liverpool Crown Court, St George's Hall and they gave us, mother couldn't afford a solicitor or barrister. So they gave us what they called the dock brief, which is a barrister who dealt with you all for a standard fee. And he came downstairs and he said look you're all being very silly. You can all be home, you've been in custody now because we've been in custody for three months. Got my 16th birthday in Waltham prison, in a men's prison because I was in a boys remand home. But once again the nigger thing fighting every day and set me to Waltham prison and had my 16th birthday in Waltham prison, in the men's prison. And the barrister said you've all been in custody now for three months. You can all be at home with your families, plead guilty, you'll all get probation. We all stupidly changed our plea to guilty and we all got boastal two years. That was it, that was the start of it. Does that make you an authority then to set you up? Well, when you've got a record at that age, it's hard to live it down. And I couldn't get a job. So people I'd met in prison came with graft. I started grafting, that was it? What sort of grafting? You're talking hash, you're talking? No, statues, blags, robberies. Yeah, cash in transit. That was it. You must look at it now, obviously with all the cameras and CCTV compared to back then, no DNA, no fingerprints. Nothing. They had no chance. Once you hit the place, once you got out safe, it was over. How much are you talking back then for your robberies? Well, we're getting like five grand a piece, which is big money in those days. I mean, like 1976, I came out of prison in 74 and I got invited on a bit of graft and ended up getting 60 grand, which was good money in 1976. I bought a Jensen Interceptor. Life was good. Because back then everything's paid cash. You don't have credit cards, you don't have people. Everybody was cash in hand. What was it like doing your first turn? Borstal was bad because of racism. Because I remember the first day I actually got to ever thought Borstal. You got there in the afternoon and they locked you up and then they opened you up for tea. And I remember they opened me up and said, all right, food. And I got to the top of the stairs and a chant started banging the knives and forks on the table. Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger. 99 voices. I was the only black person of the week. I had to fight it every day, every single day. But I survived. I survived it. I excelled even. Yeah. How did you survive it then with everybody against you? Was there anyone on your favour or was everybody just following the crowd? For the crowd. I mean, nobody wanted to talk to me and things like that. But I mean, Liverpool being so racist prepared me for this. It prepared me for things like that. But I haven't forgotten. I haven't forgotten. Sad to think people feel as if it needs to prepare them. But then how much anger and hate do you then have towards others? Do you feel sorry for them or do you think I'm going to get used back one day? No. That prepared me. And I said, look, no matter what happens, I'm going to do well. I'm going to make money. I'm going to make my family proud. And that was it. What did your mum and dad say when you went to Bosto? Well, they were shocked because they say nobody had ever been in trouble before. And that was it. When you get sent to the adult prison, what was life like for you then? Was that worse or was that a bit easier? Well, not easier because I was locked up 23 hours a day out for an hour's exercise. And that was it locked up. But a horrible place, the screws were racist and that's it. What happens when you get out for the first time in prison? Well, let's say when I got out, I tried for jobs and no chance. And as I say, I bumped into a couple of people that I knew from Hayton who were grafters. And they said, were you like a bit of graft? Okay. And that was it. What was it like doing your first robbery? Were you buzzing or were you scared? Were you thinking that mentality you're trying to do something with your life? Even though it's the wrong thing, but were you thinking, I'm not going to suffer again? Well, the thing is, the police presence was very low in those days. No cameras, no nothing like that. And once you actually hit the job and got away, that was the end of it. Unless somebody made a stupid mistake, that was the end of it. What was it feeling like after you get away with your first one? It was nice because I think I ended up with about two, two and a half grand or something like that. And I had to sort of slide it into mum's pace and things like that and pretend I got a little job that was paying money and things like that. Is that what started then the lifelong life of crime? Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. When I saw the money that was available, that was it. When was the next time you went to prison? Next time I went to prison was, I think it was, I got three years for robbery. Court? How did you get caught? Well, we actually did the job. Everything was okay. And somebody, the money was brand new money. And one of the guys gave some to his wife. She went out and bought something. And he got sussed and they arrested him. He blew us up. And that was it. See, because you're in the papers and stuff, the White Rolls Royce is in The Godfather. When did you buy the White Rolls Royce? I bought the Rolls Royce in 1976. Was that a mistake or? Looking back, yes, it was a mistake. It rubbed the nose in it too much. Yeah. They hated it. They hated it. And especially during the riots when I was at 10 meeting with Michael Heseltine in a White Rolls Royce. And we turned up once actually in the same suit. I had a silk suit, which is Guido Mil. And he had the same suits on. And he said, well, I know how much you paid for that. So when did the riot start? Was it 81? And what happened with the riots? Because Liverpool was in a lot of poverty then. A lot of unemployment. I think same as Glasgow and stuff. We were going through a struggle back then in the 80s. What's so my mum and dad says? I was born in the 80s, but I never seen much of it. Well, as I said, the riots kicked off. And at that time, I was living in a place called Chubruk. And no, I was it. I bought the big house then. I bought the big house in Chilwool. You paid cash? Yeah. Paid cash. How much? 32, 950. I paid 38 for the rolls. So that was it. Bought my dad a house. Mum had one. That was it. So when did you start doing the Poff? 75. So you were already doing the graph before all the riots and stuff? Yeah. So you were on your feet then in the 80s? I was settled then. I was settled. I didn't need money then. Because as I said, when they offered me a job, I said, I don't need a job. So seeing you got the white Rolls Royce, is that a case of, fuck you, I told you I would do something, even though things like, you know, yourself being flashed, it comes back and bites you in the ass. Because then I raise his questions and a lamb bell start ringing, how's he got that? Was that a fuck you to the people who tried to bully in the racism and to show them, I told you I would do something with my life? Without a doubt. And how was that feeling when you had the bought house and the paid car, the Rolls Royce driving about being a top boy basically? It felt good. It felt good. What was this surveillance like back then in the 70s and 80s? Obviously, you get your soccer now, when everything's in the corpus, no, everything. Unless they actually caught you at it, there's nothing they could do. Nothing they could do, as I say, like in 76 when I was going out the airport with the money, nothing they could do. Because back then, you know mobile phones, you know, there's no much trace of paper trail. No. Some poor life back then, isn't it, Meiko? Much easier. So what was it like, the rides? Did you ever come across that or anything? Well, what happened? I was driving along Parliament Street and a police roadblock. They stopped me. They said, where are you going? I said, I'm going to my father's house. My father lived in Liverpool later. They said, well, move your black bastard. I said, what the hell do you think you're talking to? And I got out the car and an inspector came across and said, no, get back in your car. So I found out that there was an organisation called the Liverpool Aid Defence Committee in the Charles Wooten Centre, which was a black adult education centre. And they were fighting cases. Because what the police were doing, they were getting young kids, beating them up and throwing them outside the hospital. And so we had mothers who didn't know where their kids were. 12 and 13-year-old kids had just vanished overnight. Nobody knew the way and then they found out the next day they were in the hospital. So we started the organisation and we actually fought. Of the 66% of cases that we actually fought, we won. And we got black barristers from London, Michael Mansfield, all people like that to fight cases. Because we had one case. I remember there was one case of a guy called Jimmy Phillips. And they arrested him having petrol, saying he was going to make petrol bombs. And what it was, it was a water can and it used to be a petrol can. And all they did, they tested the headspace and said it was petrol. And they actually did him on that. And the barrister, of course, got the fluid checked. And it was actually water, which was used to top up his radiator. And we won. Of the 66% of cases that we actually took on, we won. And they hated it. They hated it. What was the rights like in 1981? Oh, I felt so proud when I saw what was happening. Because I thought, at last, at last it's happened. Because some of the things we used to see, we used to see the police pull up outside a pub called the Alex, which was on Upper Hill Street. And the black guys used to pay pitch and toss, you know, nearest to wall and things like that. And they'd just jump out the jeeps and batter them and arrest them for absolutely nothing. And of course, when that happened, everybody thought, yes, yes, you know. So you were in the 80s and you're flying high, everything's paid. You're looking after your mum and dad, people around you are doing well. Your circle's small. I read that you always kept your circle small. When did it come on top for you? It was after I was off of the job. I was actually called to a place called Graham House, which is just by the Crown Court in Liverpool. And there was a man called Dewiris and another man who was the head of the Heseltine Task Force. And they contacted a man called Rashid Mufti, who was a college lecturer, who was on our committee. And they said they wanted to speak to me. I went down with Rashid and they said they'd like me to resign from the Defence Committee. And they'd give me a job in the Manpower Service Commission, a well-paid job. And I said, well, I'm not in it for a job. I don't need money. And after that, that's when all the problems started. And I was working then in the Mesicide Immigration Unit. And a client of mine came and said, because I got his dad, his uncle, his entry clearance in Britain. And he wanted entry clearance for a wife. He just married him back in Pakistan. And I said, no problem. I shall do that. But unknown to me, he was actually shipping heroin and the customs were on it. And the customs followed him to the Immigration Advice Unit where I worked. And from there, that's where it all started. Because when he was actually arrested collecting the heroin, they said, look, we followed you here. We followed you there. You went to Immigration Advice Unit. Yes, I went to see a man called Mikhail Michael to get entry clearance for my wife. He got my uncle his entry clearance. The tape goes off. Five hours later, the tape comes back on again. I now wish to tell the truth. The man called Mikhail was supposed to give the heroin to, to sell for my uncle. And that was it. That was his evidence he'd given court. So say, oh, you got a 20 stretch for that? I got 24, yeah. What was the decision you're getting, the brown from Pakistan? Pakistan. And in fact, the brown was being supplied to British custom officers by British, by Pakistani drug smugglers. And it was all part of a big conspiracy. And they were actually convicted of the sale of heroin, the customs officers. And they got six months probation. I stood in court and watched them get six months probation. And here the judge say, we don't want to do too much to jeopardize your pensions. Shit. So, see before that, what were you saying, Hash? It's, what's called a gun, yeah? How much were you shot? Because were you working in the docks? I was your family working in the docks? No, no, one of our family had an uncle who was in charge of the unions. And anything that came in, they could bring a port to a standstill. And anything that went on, they knew about it. And that was it. And I used to ship it in tin containers, compress it into the container, seal it, and put it in half a ton container. That was it. How much were you paying back then, a kilo? £300 a kilo. No, £300 a pound in those days. Half a kilo. Yeah. Just, yeah, just under, yeah. It's crazy, you know, on that £300 quid. Yeah. How much were you selling back then, back home? £600, £700? A ton? Yeah, how much were you charging, a kilo? Oh, no, it was £300 a pound we were selling. Yeah, was it £2.2 a kilo on that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's how, man, back in the day, when you think it sees a few, because I had Andrew Pritchard on, but they were paying a million pound to customs to get the shipments through, and they had to catch the odd one every few months as well, just to make it as if they were doing their job. But they were getting that million just to pass it through, but they were shipping £1,000, £2,000 a kilo, a coat back then as well. So it was big shipments, but they were making that up to end. Well, that's what annoyed me, because I was offered brown where I used to go to London, take the way to London, and had people say, listen, just take two quid. I said, look, I don't know anybody who's involved in it, which I didn't. And anybody who was involved in them with sauce was shunned in those days, because people didn't like it, and rightly so. Yeah, it was a destruction that caused the pain. And to this day, it's the prisons that are full of it, and the pain and the addictions. So you only done the puff, I thought you'd done this, Mark, is where I thought you were, no. So that, because it obviously says you got your 20, and you've always pleaded your innocence, because I set up certain phone calls for Pakistan. But what do you think of the karma situation? You were doing gravity anyway. You never get caught for that, but you get caught for details if they were going to throw you under the bus. Well, the thing is, that's one of the things that kept me going on the 20. I thought to myself, well, look at all you got away with it. And that's it. And I sort of rationalised the sentence that way. I mean, it was actually declared a miscarriage of justice by the Criminal Cases Court Review Commission. In 19, no, in 2006. But of course, they couldn't let me win. They could not let me win. That's the only thing with the other side. They do always win, no matter what. And like we spoke earlier, when cameras were off, they know everything. Nowadays, especially with the technology, they can simple fucking bug in a car, or your phones are tapped, it's just too easy to find out information nowadays. So see, when you're, did you know you were getting a 20 stretch? Or were you thinking, you're going to walk from it? Did you know? No, I was worried because they stitched me up so well. I thought, why did I do it? I had myself puzzled, did I do it? The stitch up was so good. And what's going through your mind when they say 20 years? Well, when I actually got the 20, I'm trying to work out, how much, how long did I actually do? Was 14 and working out how long you actually did. What age were you then? I was 30 then. What prison did you go to? Full shopping. I was in the unit in Hull first, while I was on remand with, what's his name? Or what's his name? Charlie. Craig. Now. Bronson. Charlie Bronson, yeah. And Lord Longford used to go and visit him there. He had him do impressive, actually. And Charlie said, he said, oh, he said, yeah, listen, no matter what you get, you do it. You'll do it. He said, it'll be hard, but you'll do it. And that was it. He must have thought he was getting out then, because he only got a six or a seven at the start. What was Charlie Bronson like at the start when he just went to prison? Was he a mad man then? He was a character. He was a character and a hot off. And that's it. What do you think that is with him? Do you think he's maybe scared to get out? With the damage he's done on there, they just think he just hates that everybody, not everybody, but anti-authority. I mean, he hates the system. Yeah, but he is the system. He's prime example of what happens in the system if you don't follow the rules. Nobody wants to follow rules. Rules are there to be broken, but when you're in the system, if you don't abide by the rules, they'll break you and break you and break you. They can break every bone, but as soon as they break that spirit, you've seen it yourself in prison. You may as well be dead. Do you know what I mean? Because you were in there so many. You were in the train robbers. Yeah, I mean, when I got the seven, I was in with the train robbers, Cravefam, Eddie Richardson. I knew them all because they're only like 21 then, 22. And that was it. What was Eddie Richardson like? Nice, fella. But they hated the crazer. They fought. They got on well inside. That's weird, that, isn't it? Yeah. So you were okay then? Did you find it easy to make friends as you got older and you had the reputation whether the racism stopped? Oh, no racism in the adult prisons. None of the adult prisons now. Did that make life easier for you? Oh, much easier. Much easier. What goes through your mind when you think you're free and you've, listen, money gives you freedom? You understand that and you try to do the right things. Listen, the life of destruction and robberies and drugs, we know it destroys lives. But at that time, that's what served you because that's the only way you think how to survive. What was it like your first year? Did it really hit home that you were doing a 20th direction? Changing everything falls apart when you're in? I mean, my youngest child was... But she was born? Well, I was in Henri Manne. And so I didn't really know her. And that hurt me. My sons, daughters, I mean, it was sad seeing them like once a month and then once every two weeks or whatever. But that was it. Because did your first wife not, did you not pay for the house cash and she fucked off with it? Yeah. I'm laughing because that's what happens. That's the classic manoeuvre. She was a cow, that was it. And as I said, she divorced me while I was in prison and wouldn't let me see the children, things like that. What about, who was it that was killed in a car chase? Was anybody killed in your family in a car chase? My son was actually killed. Well, my mum died being hit by a stolen car while I was on remand. And they wouldn't let me go to her funeral. My son, he drank some Bacardi, which was actually pure cocaine. His girlfriend had gone to Jamaica and as far as I can say, she'd had a little fling with the Jamaican. And he gave her two bottles of rum to bring back and gave her phone number to phone when she got back to England. And she gave a bottle of rum away to the gardener in the hotel that was staying at and brought her bottle home. And that was it. My son drank some. That was it. He died. What about your mum? How's that then when you're on remand and your mum's been killed? Well, I always remember the morning because they came to me about one o'clock in the morning and they said to me, is your mother named Daisy Pretoria? And then I knew something was wrong. And they just told me, put me on the phone to my wife and she told me my mum had been killed by a stolen car. That was it. Was there any justice for that? Yeah. The guy who did it, his barrister said, this unfortunate lady has sons who are well known in the criminal fraternity. Can you imagine what would happen if you send this young man to prison? That was it. So he got away with killing your mum because of who you were? He also killed a student doctor two years later, again, stolen car. Seeking through all that then, your life with the racism, the hate towards black people, just your mum being killed, losing your son. Did that ever come on top when you felt as if I don't want to take anyone and think about taking your own life? Or did you have so much hate and rage to then just... No. I've always thought I'm going to get out. I'm going to do well. That's it. I'll show them. That was it. Did you feel as if making money eased the pain or whatever you were battling within? Yeah, it did. It made it easier to survive. And that was it. What was the craze like in prison? Well, as I say, Reggie, I was in with. And he said like Hooch. He said like the Hooch. I used to have a drink myself. And he was a typical ol' cockney. Typical ol' cockney. Fuck him. That was it. Nice fellow, was Reggie. Who was the maddest person you were in prison with? I think Charlie. Charlie Brunson. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a few men on who's been in with him. He took the hostages and put one under his bed. He told them they tickle his feet. He wanted a helicopter. He is a, he is a nutcase. I hope he does get, or I believe he does deserve a chance to get it. Listen, he'll keep you back in the next day. But to be spending 40, 50 years, whatever it is, he's inside for a robbery. There's people out there kill kids. Get fucking less. Do you know what I mean? Give the guy a chance. But I don't know his social work reports. I don't know what his mental health's like. He could be, it could be worse. But as far as I'm concerned, he's still, as far as I'm told, he's still a big, strong man. Yeah. But what was it, did you ever, did you ever see him fighting with the screws? No, they left him alone. They knew him and they kept him away. That was it. What's the worst thing you've seen in prison, Michael? People hang themselves. I'll tell you what they made me laugh once was Frankie Fraser. I was down the block and he shit a screw up. They opened the door and he had shit in his hand. And he pushed his mouth up his nose everywhere. The screw was vomiting everywhere. Frankie Fraser. He was proper, wasn't he? He was a proper old fucking psycho. He was a gangster, wasn't he? Yeah. He lived and breathed that life. That's what he wanted. And who is, is it? Oh, it's 3 to 4. Who's still alive? Is it? I think Freddy Foreman's still alive. Foreman's still alive, isn't it? Yeah. And Roger Bender. Yeah. What was Roy Shaw like? Just an honest, gym-minded person. That was it. Because he could scrap her? Yeah. Did you ever see him scrap in prison? No, so very few fights in prison, actually. If you pulled, Sykes was a regular one, but to me, that's it. Everyone, it might be Paul. Paul was a nutty like Charlie. Yeah. It's mad, isn't it? The names that you've came across and how they're... It's a lot of their names still live on with their stories and people still speaking about them. Yeah. Do you look back and think that because they're all dead now, how fast life goes as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, after you got your 20 and you've done 14, 15 years, what was the plan to come out? Was it straight back on the graph? Especially with the contacts you've then got, you're in working with the top-end people in the underworld, the people who's got connections that can open doors to any fucking thing you want. Was it planning to then come back out and just flood the streets? I did a bit of a job with Roy. Oh, I've got to give him the surname. The little racing driver in the train robbers. Can't remember his surname, but I used to get Ash off him. Sell it in Liverpool, take the money up to him. What was it? What's the most pleasant you've been in? I think strange ways. How? The screws were a vicious barbaric petty. Yeah. Did you ever have any rights unsafe? No, no. I went to two strange ways. We were on the first prisoners to go in there after the riots. Yeah. What did you do once you came out? After your 20 stretch. Well, it was banned from Liverpool when I first came out. I had to get permission from the Home Office to visit Mother's Grave and my son's grave. And then, fortunately, I met my now-wife Sharon and life became rosy. Because how many kids have you got a loving as well? Yeah. That's a lot. I thought I had a lot, Michael. Does that, how hard does it then, when you're in prison, knowing that you've got kids and stuff and you've lost your mum and you've lost your son? When does it all hit home that the life that you were in is well? Do you ever feel like the victim or do you feel as if karma always plays a part as well? How do you see it, life from your eyes? Well, I don't think it's karma because to think it's karma would have to think I was doing something wrong. And I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I thought, as far as I was concerned, I was just working. To survive. And that was it. Like the robberies and stuff, obviously, because everything has that effect. If there's women and their children and robberies, then it's karma as well for life. You know what I mean? I'm not talking about losing lots. We should never lose people. If we could live the perfect life, we would never lose people the way we want to lose them. But the sad reality is, this is life. And we lose people just in a heartbeat and you realize, shit man, I wish I was a bit nicer or more connected to them. Do you have regret where you wish? You'd have been closer and more understanding towards that I've basically been in prison as a mother's instincts is to try and keep us on away from trouble. Do you have a regret that you were in prison when it happened to your mum? Without a doubt. Because I mean, to actually not... I mean, to actually be sitting in a cell while your mother's being buried. I mean, that was hell. That was hell. What was it like going to the graves when you came out? Oh, that chewed me up. Especially when I actually saw my mother's grave when we buried my son because he buried him with my mum. And that was the first time I saw my mother's grave. Did you get out for your son's funeral? No. No. What were you, cat, here? No, sorry. I got off my son's funeral. It's a mum's funeral I didn't get out for. I was actually a cat, see? I could have been released for my son's funeral. I could have been released. But... We handcuffed? Yeah. That's the thing as well, isn't it? It's just... But at least you were there. Yeah. Do you think you would have caused a riot if you never got out? Well, that was the reason they said that they wouldn't let me go to my mother's funeral because I could cause riots. You know, it was just nonsense anyway because people respected my mum, respected me. And that was it. Nothing would have happened. Because no Razer Smith was a good friend. I mean, he was the tourist bank robber from London and his son passed away. The priest came and told the priest to fuck off because, you know, something was bad. It was about to be said. And he lost his son and they never let him go. And he was going to... He asked that that was the thing that changed his life because he was going to riot. He was just fucking turned and just absolutely caught up. Probably spent the rest of his life in prison. But something happened that month where he decided he wanted to change. I think he went to Grendan. Yeah. My brother went there. Learned how to read and write and he became a publisher. Amazing, man. And it shows you sometimes the dark stuff in life and the pain in life can actually... Even though it's full of hate and rage you can have, it can actually turn that into power, motivation, success, love. It can totally twist and turn. See, when you came out and you went to the graves and what happened with life after that? Well, the thing is I saw all my children and I thank God for them. And let's say I'd met Sharon then. And we had a child and that was it. Life just changed completely. For the better. For the better. Did you see when it came, when it was about money that how ruthless people we could be, even loved ones? Oh, yeah. No two ways about it. Allegedly, how much was moving through your hands when you were at the top? Millions. Millions. You ever satisfied? Well, no, because you never see it coming to an end. You never think, well, if I have two million, that'll be enough. Three million, that'll be enough. You just... money's coming so easy. You don't take question. When did you end up in Africa? Seventies. 74, 75, 76, 77. What made you go there? Well, I went actually because of the police attention. It got the crime squad used to actually sit outside my house. As soon as I drove off, they'd drive behind me. As soon as I stopped, there were no bones about it. They weren't making any bones about it at all. They just followed me everywhere. It got to the point where I said, that's too much. So I thought, well, I'll go visit my dad's family. Have a break, which I did. And while I was out there, I bumped into a seaman. And he said, brother. He said, can you help me? He said, my ship go to Liverpool. And I take Igbo, which is weed. And I don't know anybody who can buy it. That's one problem. Ask him your name, ship dates, which he did. And I found people in Liverpool. They went off on board, bought the weed. That was it. And from there, I thought, well, this is a good business. Put some on myself. Took it out. It's OK. Sold it. I thought, this is too easy. And that was it. I was at 60 grand. You made your first shipment. Are you then thinking game time? Yeah. And then you end up doing what you do. Go out and throw up with a ladder. End up with a 20 stretch. Come back out. You end up in prison again. Yeah. Was that, was it Turkey? Turkey. What happened? I went to visit a friend of mine, whose wife had just had a baby. Because I was working then in Sainsbury's in the warehouse. And as a matter of fact, I was 10 years in Sainsbury's warehouse. And my friend, his wife, had just had a baby. So I thought, well, I'll go cross and see him. I went across to see him. Unknown to me. He's grafting on the brown. When I went to the house, he wasn't there. His wife, she couldn't speak much English. And I imagined, not yet. So I said, well, OK. Gave her the presents for the children. Told the hotel I was staying at. And that was it. About four days later, the hotel door comes in. Soldiers storm in with the machine guns. That was it. They've nicked him with 22 kilo in a tire. And what they do in Turkey, when they're on observation, everybody who goes to the house is photographed and arrested at the time that the suspect is arrested, which I was one of the people. So of course, they contact Liverpool. And Liverpool said, oh, yes, yes, he's into heroin. He's into heroin. And that was it. Even though I hadn't been in trouble for 10 years, and I was working as a warehouse man. That was the shit they came up with. How much did you get? I got 10 years. So you get a 20 stretch and a 10 stretch for smack. And you were never dealing with that. That's what hurts. Because obviously, looking from the outside, the coppers would think you're just making shit up. It's hard to believe a man who was active, top of the tree, driving a white Rolls Royce in Africa, doing shipments over to the docks, to Liverpool. To the two times you do get caught with phone calls in Turkey. People want to think, well, he's just blatantly caught and he's not in Metna. Does that hurt? It hurts. What hurts is that the people in Liverpool ate. No, I wasn't involved in heroin. Because they knew all the people who involved in heroin. And that's it. Yeah. So where did you do your 10? In a place called Maltepe. Which I mean, Turkish prisons are totally different. Because when you go in, you get a blanket, a mattress, and a pillow. That's it. Spoon, cup, saucer, food, everything else you have to buy yourself. If you have no money, you get nothing. Nothing. You get food three times a day and minimal food. And that's it. Any trouble in the Turkish prisons? Yeah, it's very, very gang orientated. I mean, the first wing I was on was run by Macedonians and Russians. And a lot of racism from the Eastern Europeans. And I got thrown off a couple of wings. I ended up on an Arab wing, which wasn't too bad. But hell, hell on earth. What are you then thinking if you're working in Sainsbury who's trying to be a family man, you say you met the love of your life again? That, not fuck up, but again, the misery you've caused the people who love you. Yeah. How did your wife handle that? And why did she stick by you? She stuck by me because she loved me. She loved our son and loved our life. And that was it. How hard is that for you to be in there? Because you're very emotional today. And it's a good thing as well because it's a release. I don't know if it's a build-up or maybe you get emotional or anything. But how hard is it to see that when the people you love? Because it's mad because I always say that's just because you're a criminal, I've done bad things. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person. Yeah. It's just that life, that environment where you think it's normal. It's not to, yeah, actually, some day you have some people call it a spiritual awakening or just an awakening to realize what the fuck was I doing. But how hard is that to see your wife as you then think it's come in and as the one who then makes you see the world differently to then being back in prison? Did you have to explain to her or did she don't know it was...? But she knew I wasn't at it. She knew I wasn't at the heroin. And it hurt, as I say, with her being so loyal. It hurt even more because I'd never had such loyalty. What age were you then? Do you age 60? 60? Fuck's sake, Michael. So, seeing you're working in Sainsbury's and stuff, how was that life from White Rolls Royce, buying houses, cash? Everybody loving you because they think you're the man about town to then be working in Sainsbury's? Was it a better feeling working in Sainsbury's or...? It was better because there was no worries. There was no worries about people knocking on the door. Because I knew I wasn't at it. But then again, you don't have to think you're at it. They think you're at it, that's it. Did anybody ever try and test you in Sainsbury's? No, there'd been a couple of television programmes and things like that and people sort of knew what was about. And that was it. Why do you think people choose a life of crime? I chose it because it was the only way out. And that's it. And because it was very fruitful. Yeah, the external stuff. Yeah. It's crazy rolling at it because it does always come back and biting the ass and seeing you're in the Turkish prison, how long did you actually do it for? Six years and eight months. So it's not even half over there either? No, it's two thirds. Do you get any home leaves or anything from the Turkish? Yes. When you've got, I think, I can't remember what I did, but like after I had two years left, they moved me to what they call an open prison, which is like machine guns on the wall. And every month or every three months, you allowed seven days leave. And my wife used to come to their holiday resorts and I used to go and spend time with them a week. Yeah. What was that like getting your first home leave in Turkey? Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah. What's the happiest moment in your life, Miko? My last child being born. Yeah, because I knew it would be my last. Yeah, that's a good number to stop me from living. It's like, why did you not be your last? Well, I was nearly six days. That was it. How do you look so good for someone who's nearly 80? You're very smart. Your tie is absolutely spot on, man. How you've done that tie is amazing. I think prison, prison, you keep fit because you have to and it's just sanity. You keep saying by being fed. You think survival mode? Yeah. Learning the basics, traits and tools to keep fit and keeping your mind sharp. There were no gyms in Turkey. Yeah, you just had to like... Just press ups? Stones on bars and things like that. See, having that fearsome reputation and people think you're the big man and the big time drug dealer, do you think that can damage a man to having that false kind of security that people think that looks amazing? Because I used to look up to the people who had the convertibles back in the day. I was like 12, 13. They used to have the convertibles, the big blondes in the passenger seat, driving about in the escort convertibles. And I think, wow, I wanted that life. And then 10 years, 15 years later, the blondes are haggard looking, the dam is looking, the men are in and out of prison, the big deals, 100 grand deals, half a million deals turned into 10 grand and then it's five grand, then it's a grand. And then they can't get back what they've lost, but you always lose. Do you see that as well? There's never a winner. I think I realised after the 20, that you couldn't win. You couldn't win. And that was it. How long did it take to get back from Turkey? Did you have to stay there once you got released or could you go back to passport? No, once I got released, actually, I was actually going to be rearrested. Because the British Embassy wouldn't help me. They wouldn't let me get my passport. Because my passport had run out. And the Turkish authorities were going to arrest me because I had been in Turkey for 28 days and I should have gone. And with my wife, actually, who got onto the MP here, that pushed things. What was it like coming back again? Did you have to feel as if you were starting again in your 60s? Yeah. Yeah. My wife was at the airport with my son and a friend and that was it. How do you then change from that life, Miko? Because a lot of people can't get out. How hard does it to actually get out and go, listen, I've spent over 30 years in prison. I've seen loved ones die, come and go. I've not been to their funerals. The pain is always there. But how hard is it to then try and hold back that anger and frustration towards life, towards the billies, towards the criticism, towards the people always trying to bring you down? How hard is it to then try and flip that to be a family man, to work in Sainsbury's, to try and do the right thing? Was it a hard transition? I didn't find it actually hard. I just took to it like a duck to water. It was just natural. That's it. And I was getting a decent wage because I was like, I was unlikely left a pound an hour then, which was good even today. Yeah, I think people are only 13, 14 quid now. Where do you deem us at? With Grafft? Yeah. Yes. I missed the freedom of the money and that's it. I don't miss the risk or the worry, but I missed the freedom of the money. I mean, I would love to be able to give my present wife the life that I gave my first wife. But the thing about a good woman is... Well, she's just not interested with it. They don't care for that life. They're just happier sitting here. They're just happier on the couch watching shit TV, taking your dog a walk. That's funny. The beautiful thing is the simple things in life and as cheesy as it is, the best linked things in life are free. Connection, love, honesty, if we can get it, food in the berry, and all that people struggle. But if you've got the basic things, you can actually have a good life. But because you've lived the high end life, it's hard to give it up because you know how to get there. And that's the thing. But to give that up and realize, listen, there's no point in trying to get there because you lose it anyway. Look at the proceeds of crime. Look at people are getting fetties now, just for association, 25 years, just for certain people saying... Look at the phone calls. Yeah, the phone calls. Yeah. And then you're talking there. What's the phones? The people are using there. Incaptive fucking... Yeah. I mean, people came to me and said, you want one? I said no. I said, because I don't talk business on the phone. That's it. Yeah, because people are just getting done for the phones now. What's the phones man call? Encrose. Encrose chats and people... I know people have had to fuck off. I think there's some law in France and they've had the right to do so, so I think a lot of things are getting... But people are already doing it, 10, 15 and now. I know people get big court cases next year, but hopefully things will get overturned because listen, you don't mind people getting caught for a play, but it's the corruption that comes with it. And as they met police there, they've just had to release a thousand metcoppers. There's only 34,000, but they've released a thousand, which is one in 34 for corrupt corpus, abuse, rape, corruption. There's not a mean, there's a lot of fucking dirt in this in, whiff, they met police as well, and any corpus, listen, there's good corpus as well. There's genuinely people trying to clean up the streets. Now I've got kids and I wouldn't want them doing the bad shit that I done or the people asked me to do. No, that's the one thing I'm happy about. None of my children have ever gone through what I went through. Why do you think that is? Well, because I was strict with them. The mums were strict with them and that's it. Mm-hmm. How hard is it having so many kids to different women? It's hard because some of the mothers hate you and turn the kids against you and you want relationships with your own children, but you can't have them. Because the older I get, I just realise it's all about family. Yeah. You keep that tribe strong, you keep that family not in line, but there's got to be discipline to them that I've lived. They're fucked up like you've lived that, you've lived longer on this planet to see it longer than me. But that's the destruction that you can cause back then because you don't see, you don't think 10, 20, 30 years down the line. You're thinking in the moment with your dick and just try to be the big man and try to do the right thing, but then realising as time goes on, family for me is everything. My kids are happy, I'm happy. They're fucking hard work. It's hard. There's no point in denying it and going, oh, I skipped down the road and everything's all great and rosy. Life is tough, no matter how much you make, no matter what level you're at successfully. The bottom line is you just have to get on with it, try and learn and educate and learn from the mistakes to then try and pass it down for future generations. But as human beings, we're all different, we'll see the world differently and that's what can be the beautiful thing about life because nobody knows, I say this all the time, but nobody knows what's going on, Michael. No. I genuinely don't think they do anyway. We can talk a good game. My job is talking, but I still don't know what the fuck I'm talking about half the time. See when you get out then, Turkey, try to do the right things. How long have you been free? I think it's nearly 10 years now. How are you feeling now? Totally relaxed. Yeah, why have you been so emotional today? Because the racism, as I say, which shaped my whole life is something which I hate and it does make me angry. Do you think you ever forgive those people? Or do you think you... No, I don't think I'll ever forgive them. You'll die with the hate towards them. No. Did you ever get therapy in prison? Did you ever work on your emotions or anything? No, in those days, there was nothing. There was nothing. Because nowadays everybody's mental health's right. But listen, again, I get it. It's good to talk. That is... But there comes a time when you need to just fucking get on with it. Get the head down and focus and push through. Because they're talking and good, but there's only so much talking you can do without actually putting that into action. And that's important. Do you see a lot of changes nowadays with people talking out and talking about feelings and emotions compared to back then? Of course. I mean, everything's open now. Everything's open. But as I say, the main thing I see which is so different is the male-female relationship. And that's it. Yeah. But nowadays everybody... They want everybody a female. Yeah. They don't want any masculinity. They don't want any tough men, strong men. There's got to be balance. There's two different genders for a reason. There's two different energies. There's two different... There's different chromosomes. There's different genders for a reason. Male and female. There's feminine energy. There's masculine energy. It's like my wife couldn't understand the Ferrari of that guy kissing the footballer. He was overcome by emotion. He kissed her. That's it. That's all it was. He didn't sexually assault her. But that's day and age. When you talk about... They're talking about toxic masculinity. They try to take it away. But again, it's nothing to do with people being toxic. The toxic thing is being weak and abusive and hateful. If you're masculine, you're strong. You're loving. You're caring. So people need to understand. Stop trying to take the masculine away from men. The world needs that. The world needs women as well. So both play their part. Men and women, we need each other. Men build big skyscrapers. Women bring life into the world. And this is what it's all about. Be who you want to be. If you want to be a boss lady. If you want to do that. And do your own thing. And be independent. That's good for you. But men need men. And women need women. And we both need each other just to get through in life. Because lives, I don't know. Do you feel as if family life is changing nowadays? No, not really. Because we're the old fashioned family. So that's it. How was it speaking out? When was the first time you ever spoke out? Did you do any news articles or anything? Yeah, there's a few newspaper articles. I mean, I actually spoke out during the riots many times. What was it like speaking out and stuff like that now? And people see, people talking about their past and their life. How does it feel? It feels odd in a way. But also nice and relaxing. How was it writing a book? Oh, that was emotional. A lot of emotion there. Yeah. Why do you think, what do you think changes racism? Education. You've got to educate the young. To think people hate on other people from colour. Even religion. You've got people hating on everybody. I think people just feel a hate. But you've lived that life and you can still see the emotion. You can still see the passion, the hate and the love. See the people you grew up with, are they still around? Most of them are actually. Yeah, most of them. We're fortunate, black people, because we tend to have longevity. That's it. Why do you think that is? I don't know, but it's the most my friends from school are still around. Because our dads knew each other, our mums knew each other. And that was it. What do you think looking back in your life, Miko? Oh, there's many things I'd like to change, but you can't change the past and that's it. What would you change? I'd have changed ever going to that dance. Do you feel as though that was the thing that changed? Oh, that was a start to everything. Did you ever feel at peace in your life? Have you ever felt at peace? Yeah, I'm at peace now. That's it. I'm totally relaxed. And that's it. What's your daily routine like? I get up six o'clock, make my wife's breakfast, run a bath. That's it. Do shopping. That's it. Deal of your life? Very much so. Very much so. What keeps a happy relationship? Well, I can't say not arguing because we do argue. I think that's normal. I mean, just being at peace with each other. And that's it. Think communication's key? Yeah. Yeah, my masseuse does my fucking head in. I think arguments are healthy. She doesn't really argue. It's me. I got up tight. Sometimes the pressures of life, I tend to take out the people around me. And it's, I'm learning as I'm getting older. I believe I'm chilling out a bit more, but I also believe sometimes a little bit of anger's got us where I am today as well. Because a lot of people who like to, you give them an inch and they like to take a mile. So sometimes you've got to have that little bit of listen, that kid. Just okay, I'm a good guy, but just be careful because just don't take the piss. Yeah. Did you feel as if people know who you were working in? Sainsbury's and stuff was a good find because then, because people can look down at others. Yeah. He said, I fall from grace and do you know what I mean? People want to see you fall flat in your ass. But then not understanding, just having freedom is a rich man's thing. You're rich, I believe anyway, especially if you've tested prison for so long as you have. So even, people like to judge in what we wear or what we drive. Did you see that working in Sainsbury? Did anybody ever laugh or go, well, you deserve it? No, not really. I mean, I still drove a good car and I still dressed well, it well. Went out to restaurants, so they didn't see any difference really. Why do you dress so well? You look great. Is that just get up and dress up? Well, it's something I like to do. I've always liked to dress and as I say, it's, it just comes natural to me. What's that knot called in your tie? Because that's the- Windsor. The winds are not, that's the perfect knot. That's the one on it. You see, I do the old fashioned way we used to do our ties at school and it's all creased. But the winds are not, it's the one. When did you learn to do that? My dad taught me that was it. When did your dad pass? 1988, I think it was. No, yeah, it's 1900. No, it must be 1990 because it was 90 when he died. It's a good age, isn't it? So you've got good family genes then? Yeah. Strong. Mum got killed at 78. Mum's mum died at 100. And my dad's mum died at 106, so. What was the nutrition? Fufu. What was that? Do you drink? Yeah. Rom? Brandy. Good old Brandy. Yeah. It's my dad, my grand, I was, he was 86 I think, or 88. But he used to, he was still smoking hash. So he was when he, he went, he was fucking smoking the hash in his house. And he was still fat. He used to drive about and he was a mad old bastard, old Joe, my mum's dad. But he was the same. He, he loved to hash. He smoked the hash right up till his day we went. It's mad dad. Where do you see us? Where do you go forward for the future? You know what you call? Oblivion. That's it. Yeah, I have to say. If I live to see my son, as I say, pass out as a barrister, I'll be very pleased. Because your son's just graduated, is that correct? No, he's, he's in his last year of studying now. How does that make you feel? It makes me proud that, and also it gives me hope because he doesn't know racism. He's never been called nigger. So that gives me hope. Yeah, that's a good thing. Yeah. Do you think now, if the world is changing, like you say, there's still racism here, but it's obviously calmed down a lot from back in the day. Not from my day. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Back in the day. But then again, there was still slaves and all that shit just not so long ago. You're talking maybe 60, 70 years ago in America. America is bad for racism, but we don't stay in America. We stay in the UK like I say in Scotland. I don't see it. I don't see it in the street. I don't see people fighting or arguing. The streets are pretty chilled now. But then I'm saying I don't see it because I'm up in Scotland. But I don't know how it is. I can't speak for everybody. But because the racism thing, you can see that emotion clearly on your face and the torment and the torture you must have went through. But was that a worry that it could have just been like that for the rest of your life and your kid's life? Was it always a concern? It concerned me that my children would go through the same thing that I went through. But fortunately, they haven't. That's it. And how many? And he's got a year left. He's your son's got a year left to graduate. Man, is that a proud moment for you? Oh, will be. What is your proudest moment so far, Niko? The birth of my last child. Yeah. Yeah. Why is that that one that sticks out? Do you feel as if you're on a better place? I didn't think I'd have any more children. I didn't think I'd get involved emotionally or romantically except for passing in the night. And then Sharon came along and that was it. Isn't it mad how women change their life? Yeah. Sometimes for the good listen, sometimes for the worst as well. But that's for me is what it's all about. I'm not trying to find the keys to life, but I'm trying to understand life where I can pass it on to people who watch these shows and listen to the shows. For me, it's all about family. Yeah. Older family and keep the family strong. Make sure their brothers and sisters love each other and they're there for each other because outside of that can be painful life. So when the shit hits the fan, if you've got a strong family unit, then you can handle anything. Because when the shit hits the fan anyway, Niko, you know yourself, the ones who are at court is family. Yeah. The friends ain't fucking there because either you're shagging your bird or trying to get your contacts. Yeah. So for me, it's listening. It's good to make money. It's good to have freedom to get it. But there is also people out there with nothing who can still be happier than anybody on this planet. Well, my daughter upset me because she's emigrating to Australia. Now, she's just her baby. She's about six months old. And her husband has got a job in Amazon in Australia. So they've got them a house and by the end of the year she'll be in Australia. But what she wants to do actually is to move to New Zealand in a couple of years and settle in New Zealand. New Zealand's supposed to be beautiful. Yeah. But again, it seems a better life over there. People are leaving for a reason. You've got the weather. You've got, I think, the pay better income as well. Better lifestyle. Listen, there's still bad shit that happens in Australia, but not as much as you do. Australia's bad for racism and they're just devoting on a law the other day to give aborigines rights. That's crazy, innit? Yeah. So seeing your family go to other places, do you look up to see if there's racism there? Oh, yeah. I mean, we went to the Macon Republic last November. And I like going to black countries, but you could see the racism still where the lighter black people were always on the desk and things like that. And the darker black people had the sort of menial jobs. Yeah. It's fucking crazy, innit? Yeah. But again, it's the world. Jamaica's a place for that as well. Where's the best place you've ever been? In the 70s, Nigeria. What's it like now? Wild, lawless. A lot of corruption. I thrived on the corruption. Yeah. Yeah. It's mad though. Africa is a beautiful place as well. It's done in place. But the world is a beautiful place in a whole. It's just, it's run by corruption. The world runs in corruption. It runs by power. It runs by greed. It doesn't care about the average man. It doesn't care if you're poor. It's the rich get richer in this world now, and nothing changes unless the people make a stand. And while that ever happened, I genuinely don't know. I hope it does. Not just, I just don't want it happening in one country. I want everybody to unite and go, well, wait a minute, how's the, how does a child from one year's old smile, 300, 400 times a day to then the time they're 18, they smile less than 10. So whatever system we've got in place doesn't work. Whatever system that we're going through, whatever hoops we're jumping through, it doesn't work. The schooling system, the educational system, the working system, the environment, something's not right. But then the government, they make their money off of people's misery and torment. And that's why the system is in place. So people are too caught up in it that they can't think for themselves and think, well, wait a minute, let's ask the questions. And that's all it's about. We're just asking questions. What's the best life advice you've got over the nearly 80 years on this planet? Be satisfied with what you have. That's it. And love your children. Love your wife. That's it. How important is love, Michael? Oh, very. It kept me alive. It helped me to survive. Did you know how we love back then? Not as much as I do now, no. What changed that? Your wife? Yeah. Is she, because I'm very impatient, the, were you impatient? In life, just always try to live on a fast lane. Instead of slowing it down and appreciating everything around you. No, I don't think I appreciated things as much as I do now, obviously. That's it. Do you owe your wife a lot? My life. What would happen if your wife wasn't here when you got the jail in Turkey? Do you think you'd have been active? I think I'd have been active, but I'd have left England. That's it. What do you miss most about that life? The power of money. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a mad feeling how paper gives you an inner belief that you're not untouchable, because there is, you do learn that nobody's untouchable, but it does make you feel invincible sometimes. Does everybody see everybody you worked with, or everybody who was active back then, did everybody go to prison? No. Some people get out. I mean, the people I imported weed with, most of them are millionaires now. There's four of them in Drupal who are millionaires. That's it. How many was in your circle? There were six of us. Circle small? Yeah. Anybody turn on each other? No. No. That's a good circle then. Why do you think people turn queens? Weakness. Weakness. Yeah. It's weird that and that. Yeah. How people go soft to pretend that they're the big I am, but then when the copper's come knocking, their ass goes. But that's why a lot of people stay at the top of the tree though, is because they are informants. Did you see a lot of drugs in jail? A lot of people on the gear? Yeah. It's spoil prison actually, because when I went to Full Sutton, drugs weren't as prevalent as they were when I left. And the whole prison, I mean you used to get people stealing food, because you used to buy your own food, they would freeze us. We have your own chickens and beef and lamb and whatever. And it got to the point where you had thieves stealing legs of lamb or chicken to sell and things like that. Yeah. But the system, again the prison systems they had to fail. Yeah. They're not there. They're making 40, 50 grand a year per inmate. That's a business, that's slavery. See when you were in there, did you feel like a slave? Without a doubt. Because it is, it's cheap labor, it's slavery as well. That's where they make their money, that's where they get their cheap labor. You're working for three, four pound a week and making them millions. Again, the system is the system. I don't have all the answers, I ain't a fucking politician. But I speak to a lot of people who understand what's right and what's wrong in the world and where it goes wrong. How old are you we are 40 now? I think I can take them, I will leave them. That's it. Do you ever feel you still get watched? You haven't done that with your parents now, but no doubt with your record man they might pop in from time to time. I spend a little day with you, following you about to see where you're going. I mean, the uniform, they know me obviously. It's the detectives who are the ones who sort of, they don't hassle me, but they make the presence felt. Fuck, if you were to get another sentence now, Michael, man, that's, you'd get a 20 for nothing. I've had a 20 for nothing, so now I feel that. Do you, do you feel, do you, is there any restrictions on your life now? None at all. So you're just a free man? Yeah. That's a good thing, eh? Yeah. So how do you feel telling your story today? It was nice, it brought back a lot of bad memories, but it's a lovey. Let's talk about some good memories then, what's a good memory in life? Obviously, I know your last son being born, but just any good memories going through your life? Yeah, when I go on holiday with my wife any way we go, we feel good, that's it. How are you going through customs? The machines go off anyway because I've got metal wrists and metal knees now, so. For anybody that's maybe watching, Michael, it's maybe wanting to get involved in a lifetime. What advice would you have for them? Be prepared for the west, that's it. And if you can't do the time, don't do the crime, that's it. Would you like to finish up on anything else, Michael? No, I'd say it'd be nice to talk to you, nice to meet you, that's it. Yeah, likewise, and once the book's out, we'll make sure to promote it as well for you. So people keep your eyes out for the next couple of weeks for the book to be out. We'll leave the Amazon links for people to get it. No doubt about a fascinating read, but Michael, listen, for coming on a day and telling your story, I've thoroughly enjoyed it. No problem, sir, you take care. I wish you all the best for the future, brother. And stay in touch. Indeed. God bless. You take care.