 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Keeping the World Company. Today we have a Chief Judge, retired, shacklery refetter from the Second Circuit, and Vicki Caetano, interested citizen from the First Lady. Wow, what a panel, fabulous. I'm going to talk about the diaspora, which is the Chinese diaspora, which Hawaii is definitely included in that. Welcome to the show, you guys. Thank you, Jay. Thank you. So I just want to tell you a couple of things that caught my attention this morning. Number one is that Chinese and Russian ships and bombers are flying together in joint formation all around the world, including in the Pacific. That's very troubling. The other thing that's even more troubling is an article that appeared in SWP, which is a German newspaper, some repute. It talks about the diaspora, the Chinese diaspora, about around the world, 60 million people are in that diaspora. And what is happening, what we see happening here in Hawaii and in the mainland, is happening in Germany the same way. And it's very scary. This article is very scary because it sounds so similar, so familiar with what we see and understand here in Hawaii. How Xi Jinping is using the diaspora in order to gain advantage technology, diplomacy, business, what have you. And to the extent that a few years ago, this was kind of a loose movement using the diaspora. Now it's not loose at all. Now it responds to the top echelons of the Chinese government. Okay, so let's start with you, Shackly. What to your knowledge is happening and how is it revealing itself in Hawaii? Okay, I think we ought to take a step back though and define what we're mean by the diaspora. I did look it up a little bit and what I found is this is that the Chinese diaspora is there's 10 million plus in Indonesia, 7 million in Thailand, almost 7 million in Malaysia. And next in terms of numbers is the U.S. with about a little over 5 million people who and that's a U.S. census people who identified as being Chinese. So that that's the number of people. They're largely about 80% is spread through five U.S. states. California is about 40% of the total. And then after that, New York, Hawaii, Texas and New Jersey. And I have a friend in China tell me once that the only not in the Chinese restaurant is in Antarctica. And maybe if you look hard you find one there. So Chinese diaspora is all over the world. The Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese government operates primarily through the United Front work department to influence that diaspora overseas and also the state security service of the PRC, which is basically like the CIA in America, which which runs spies and and clandestine efforts and so on. But the United Work Department sponsored the organization like that. Anyway, United Work Front work department sponsors things like the Confucius Institute of American Universities, which are used to influence students and university programs. They also influence or they provide I guess Chinese language training. And one interesting side note on that is when I was in China a while back, a friend of mine told me that when Chairman Mao was in charge, he changed the written Chinese language. And I said, why would you do that? You know, because one of the things that someone who can read the written Chinese language can do is read the ancient texts. And he said, well, is to make it easier to learn. But if you look at if you look at how it stands now, it doesn't look very easy to me. But in any case in Taiwan, they didn't make those changes. So they're they're actually teaching a version of Mandarin really, that's been altered by the by the, you know, Chairman Chairman Mao and and the and the party, which is I thought interesting. And I had I I ascribe a a, you know, a suspicious reason for that. I think that that was to cut people off from their history. But that's just my supposition. Anyway, they make political contributions to famous instances are the representative Swalwell, if you remember, he had a Chinese Chinese spy on his on his staff who was involved in fundraising to support his campaign. And the other one that comes to mind is Diane Feinstein, Senator Feinstein had apparently had a Chinese spy on as her driver for 20 years. And so they they they do many other things, film festivals, cultural festivals, Chinese National Day visits by Chinese officials, sponsoring research at American universities, and keeping track of Chinese students who are here studying at different universities. And and and then keeping track of Chinese dissidents who've come to America, such as people who are in Falun Gong, as you know, an organization that was horribly oppressed in China. And that's kind of the general field that I'm aware of. Yeah, let me let me just add that in that article in the German newspaper. They said that the when we talk about the diaspora, we're not just talking about people who were born and raised in China. We're talking about people who are Chinese. And they, they may have lived overseas for a long time, but the the PRC is, you know, considers them part of the diaspora and reaches out to them in the same way. Vicki, you're familiar with the police station affair in Brooklyn, how the how the Chinese government actually had a police station. And they were monitoring the movements and the conduct of Chinese people in Brooklyn. That was really, really scary. It is scary, Jay. And you know, look, we're living in an extremely precarious time right now. You've got two very powerful countries led by two extremely powerful leaders who seek to change the world order. I mean, I think Putin and Xi Jinping want to show America that there's a new world order. I think one of the great points to discuss is whether they would want to collaborate together. And I don't think there's collaboration between the two of people like them, but to combine forces in order to teach our European allies in the United States a lesson or whether they feel independently they can do that. Regardless, we're really living in a very precarious time. I think they will use all means and they call it strategic placement of their intelligence in order to penetrate and create the influence they need to gain a stronger level of confidence and to be able to win whatever war, however they are going to engage in that definition of war against the United States. You sound concerned, as I am and Shackley is. So it seems clear that they're surveilling and doing cyber-runners. Just a couple of examples of that. We have Chinese ships off the islands of Kauai, for example, on a regular basis, looking over the Pacific Missile Range, trying to figure out what our missile traffic is over there, what our technology is. We have those balloons. Nobody can tell me those balloons are innocent balloons. They're not. We have on the college campuses, we have perculean efforts not only to recruit people who would report back, but also it doesn't always work, but they try also to do cyber espionage on our work product, our science, in the universities. In fact, a couple of years ago, there was a significant conference at which UH attended to again handle on the Chinese efforts around the country to take our intellectual product from the university. So it seems clear that there's a comprehensive effort going on to find out everything they can find out, including every manner of technology you can think about. And where I get stuck is Joe Biden sends Anthony Blinken over there. He sends Janet Yellen over there. We have a regular pathway of senior diplomatic officials going to China, trying to talk to the military, but not succeeding in that way, but making friends. Query, is that helpful? Is it got a benefit to it, or is it naive? Vicky? Well, you know, I have some friends who spend time here and also in Singapore, and very interesting. They're Chinese Americans, and they actually believe that the United States needs not to feel so threatened, as you and I perhaps feel, but to simply acknowledge that we're no longer the world power, and to understand that there are others in influence now, including China, Russia, Russia, and to create a more collaborative effort. So it seems like their approach of brainwashing is already starting to have impact even on my friends. So I do think that it's very challenging, because I think President Biden is trying all diplomatic means to try to engage China. As it is, we are already at war indirectly with Russia. We're not their friend. Do we really need to take on another enemy? So I think he has to try that what he is doing. We don't want to be in bed with them, but do we really want to go up and fight another country like that in another way of war? Either way, and as the United States, are we prepared? We've had people for so long, perhaps we're a little bit more complacent now. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't seem equal. It seems disparate somehow. On the one side, they have a very specific obvious intention of winning this competition, if you will. Competition may be a light word for what I'm thinking. And on the other hand, we need to have a relationship with them, as Joe Biden understands. But how do you handle an imperfect situation like that, where one side really wants to be aggressive and the other side more and more finds itself on the defensive? Well, one thing we could do is set up a U.S. cyber command. Didn't we do that already? I'm thinking on the size of the U.S. space command that we have now. The reason I think that is, and Vicky and I were talking about this before we started is, according to Sun Tzu, who is the man who basically spells out the way the Chinese think about warfare, winning without fighting is the best way to go forward. And this whole business of influencing the diaspora and cyber warfare and all the different ways that they come at us is, I think, aimed at that. Now, whether they'll attack Taiwan or not, I don't know. I do worry about that. But I think that they're going to try this first. And how do we protect ourselves? Well, I think we have to be sophisticated and work in new ways to do that. On the police station issue, there is a virtual police station that I understand on WeChat. WeChat is the common internet, I guess it's like Facebook in China. If you travel around China, you use WeChat to talk to people. And they monitor that. In fact, I canceled my account because they wanted to change the privacy agreement. I said, oh, no, I'm going to agree into that. Not that I have anything that they'd be interested in. But that's the best I can think of is to, you know, when I read the other day that the Chinese had hacked our government information again, you know, that really depressed me. Can't we do better than that? Well, we're an open society. And that's, you know, that's the way it is. That's the way we've come up. And as an open society, there are ways to get in on us. I read that there's a Chinese fashion website that sued an American fashion website for some kind of claim of unfair competition in the state of New Jersey. So here's a Chinese company taking advantage of our legal openness, if you will, our rule of law, to sue an American company. It just doesn't seem to just try that by going into China and suing, you know, the Chinese website, just try that, not likely. It just it seems terribly unfair because we're open. Well, there's another, but I think there's an effort in Congress now, is there not to prevent Chinese nationals from purchasing American farm property? I don't know how far that's going to go, or whether that even be constitutional, but there's an awareness now of this sort of thing. Yeah. So, Vicki, you know, how about Hawaii? Where does Hawaii stand? I mean, we have a lot of military here, as I mentioned, Pacific Missile Range, but this all of Pearl Harbor, there's a lot of, what do you want to call it, signals going in and out of Hawaii about the secured things. And although we may not care enough, we certainly should care about national security. Hawaii somehow becomes, shall I say, a target. Yeah, Hawaii is a very strategic location, you know, and I think that we need to recognize that. I think sometimes that as residents, we don't. And I think that's a very good starting point, really, among the American people. We don't need to go from not even discussing it to becoming paranoid, but we really must enlighten and be much more cognizant society of what threatens us from outside our country. I think for many Americans, we're just not engaged enough in matters that pertain to national security. We've had democracy enjoyed it for so long, and we don't realize the threat to democracy. And I think that's a very important starting point, to have those conversations and to be aware of these threats from China, from Russia. How do we, however, how do we cross, yeah, how do we not cross that line? Because as a country that really has the rule of law and appreciates our democracy, how can we clamp down on any threats to our, you know, cybersecurity without losing our democratic values? I think this is the thing that we struggle with, right? Absolutely. What a perfect way to put the question. So, Shackley, you know, in terms of the military, seems to me that we are exposed here, and the question is, what is the messaging? You know, I saw a piece by the relatively new Indo-Pacific commander, and it was not encouraging. He spoke in fearful terms about what China was doing. But on the one hand, if you read that kind of rhetoric, if you hear him speak, and he's a very influential man, obviously, you know, at the top, really the top of Indo-Pacific, you get worried. On the other hand, as Vicki says, you know, we have to, we have to cool it. But you have to be careful about cooling it because, you know, China is very good at cyber. It's very good just as Putin is at doing subtle propaganda, not only to members of the diaspora, but to all of us to make us think, well, you know, we shouldn't be too excited about this. Let's try the open government democratic way. Let's try to make peace. Let's do a Joe Biden approach on this. And so you have two forces at play. One force is the more paranoid force, and the other force is don't worry about it force. How do we handle that? Well, I subscribe to the Theodore Roosevelt view of speak softly and carry big stick. What a guy. Deterrence that they can see. If we'd have had adequate deterrence in our dealings with Russia, Ukraine wouldn't attack. That's my view. But I think they get away with it. They got away with it in Georgia. They got away with it in Chechnya. And so she thought, you know, and he got away with it in Ukraine in 2014. So he went for it. And if you conduct your foreign affairs in that manner, you have to expect that somebody is going to try to take advantage of it, especially these nations that are aggressive and, you know, wanting to increase their influence across the world. So I'd say military deterrence, for sure. Well, Teddy Roosevelt did not actually define what the big stick was. I think it's incumbent on us to talk about what the big stick is. I was really unhappy to find that the Chinese navy has more ships than we do. And that the Chinese naval technology is ahead of our ship. In some ways, the ships we have are old. The technology we have is old. And we may not be up to the, you know, up to the level that they have spent a lot of time and money developing. I mean, one of the reasons they do their espionage is to find out, you know, what our technology is. And you know that in the Federal District Court of the state of Hawaii, in the state of Hawaii, there was a case not 10 years ago about a guy who sold the stealth bomber plans to the PRC. And they have that, you know, and they didn't participate in the litigation. But a few weeks after the case was over, presto digital, the Chinese are flying their own stealth bomber. And that's how it goes. So, you know, the question is, what is the big stick exactly? Well, as a military person, one thing I'll say is we have the best submarines in the world. And the submarines will tell you there are two types of ships, submarines and targets. And although, Kenny Roosevelt did not say that, did he? The ships make a target rich environment and closing some of the straits to access China would have an immediate catastrophic effect on their economy. So, we do have deterrent. I think what about, you know, other countries in Asia? I mean, we do have the advantage, call it the soft power advantage, you know, the legacy of good relations ever since World War II with a lot of these countries all around, you know, all around China. Does that play here that the United States can have not a big stick, but a soft power stick by having good relations with other countries in Asia? I think that's certainly helpful. And I think the Chinese government, they know that, you know, whether it's Japan, South Korea, I think that, but I think they're playing to the weaknesses that we have within our own country. And I would ask the question, is this why we are such a divided polarized nation as we see now? You've got the extreme conservatives that, you know, feel like we are being taken over by everyone. And then you've got others who say that that's not the case. And in fact, are even more liberal about the rights that people from all over the world who come to this great country should have. And I think this is creating one of the biggest challenges and threats to us as a nation, because divided, we cannot stand, we cannot be united. So I think we've got to look into our own country to see what we can do to pull people together. I think that's really important to counter the threats that we have with China. So, Suneckli, what do we do with the diaspora problem, as reported in the German newspaper, where, you know, we have lots of people who are on Xi's list, who he's trying to influence and get to report back and all this. What do we do in this country? I mean, we're not going to be racist. We're never ever going to have racist policy, not at the national level, aside from what we have now. But that's a pariah to have, you know, kind of a racist approach to this. If you're Chinese extraction, somehow we don't trust you. That's ridiculous. That's, you know, that happened in the Wuhan COVID issue, you know, which, you know, Republican Party capitalized on. But so my question is, how do we handle the fact that there are a lot of millions of Chinese in this country? How do we handle the fact that she wants to reach all of them and have them help him? What do we do to defend against Taiwan, a takeover of Taiwan and more bases in the ocean at the South China Sea? What do we do to improve our posture? That's a big question. A big question, I'm sorry. Well, I think deterrence from a military point of view, they have to know that they'll lose if they take military action. And I think they would. But with regard to the Chinese diaspora and influencing them, I think we have to just depend on our American values. One of the challenges, of course, is we have pre-speech and we also have a right to privacy. So there are limitations on what the FBI, for instance, can do as far as surveilling people. And we have laws, pretty good laws about that. So we're limited in that regard. But I don't think there would be a law that would stop us from finding out more about what the Chinese government is doing in our country. And that should be a high priority, because if you don't know, you can't do anything about it, right? And it doesn't seem like they know everything. I mean, we have some general ideas about what's going on, but then we have the hacking of our government official records. I mean, the first time they did it, they got records, which included the applications of people in the military and the government for security clearances. You know what that information is. That's incredible information on people who have top-level security clearances in our military and government. I mean, do you want the Chinese having that? Let your mind fly about what they could do with that. But I want to give you a kind of case study hypothetical, exactly. She has said that he wants Taiwan by 2027. 2027 is what? Three years in a change away. So we're on the brink of something with Taiwan. And let's say he is unable to get Taiwan the way he wants. I mean, obviously he's going to try to affect that election next year, isn't he, in Taiwan? They have an election. And he's going to use his social media propaganda to reach the people in Mandarin in Taiwan and try to change the effect of that. Maybe he'll talk to his friend Putin about it. Putin's a past master about propaganda. Okay, so let's assume that that does not work. And then he has to go across the Taiwan straits and fly over them and scare them and even use kinetic war against them. Now, here we are in the United States just off a very unpleasant experience either supporting or not supporting Ukraine, where we have a divisive environment in our in our Congress and in our government. And we are faced with the issue of whether to do anything about protecting Taiwan or not. 1979, the United States, in order to improve its relations with China, deregognized Taiwan, which was kind of a stab in the back to Taiwan, query, you know, whether there is unanimity on protecting and defending Taiwan right now among the people in the country and among the people in Congress. So there would be a debate, I suggest to you, about whether we should defend Taiwan or let it go. And of course, the diaspora might be a weapon that she wants to use. He might want to do social media. He has enormous capability in that area to try to affect public opinion to say, you guys, we don't want another war. We had enough supporting Ukraine. We're out of Taiwan. What happens? Well, that's a good question. President Biden has said we would we would protect Taiwan. So I assume that that's the administration's position. I think we could, in fact, do that. But but China has to be convinced of that in order to prevent an actual war. If there was an actual war, there's lots of ways that China could be degraded very substantially and very quickly. You know, from a military point of view, but you know, we don't want to really get there. We had this idea for a long time since Nixon and Kissinger went over there and reestablished relationship. Chairman Mao was still alive that if we just did business, China would change and everything would be OK. And that that approach has never worked with an authoritarian regime. Didn't work in Russia. Just didn't work in China. I had high hopes for I thought it was going to work. Why wouldn't it work? You know, there are more billionaires in China, I think, than any place else. I mean, it worked really well. But would you say that it didn't work or that it did work for a while? Well, leader changes the narrative. Yes, I remember when he came into office and things changed immediately. I was there at the time and you could see the changes. And of course, I didn't know where it was really going to go. But you're right. Before that, times were very interesting in China. So, Vicki, let's take off on that, though. You know, what could we do to get around this aside from the kinetic war? What can we do to improve the relationship, really legitimately get around it? And maybe it does involve business. Maybe it involves a fresh look at business. I mean, I think we lost our mojo there somewhere around 2010, where we stopped doing business and stopped doing these entrepreneurial things in China. We weren't up to the task. A lot of people feel we were not as sharp in making those deals. And you weren't just dealing with your opposite across the table. You were dealing with the PRC every time you try to make a deal. But you think it's possible at least logically for us to get back in on the side door that way and do deals and achieve what Shackley thought was going to happen and what I thought was going to happen back 20 years ago? Well, I think we have to be very careful of that because I think the Chinese are extremely shrewd. And if you think about it, they opened the doors. Everybody went there, invested capital, things that they're running. And they are running very successful businesses only to then find that all of a sudden their business is threatened. And the Chinese in essence used our capital and our know-how to build these businesses. And now the government owns it. So I think we have to be very careful that starting a business in China is totally different from starting a business in the United States. So I'd be careful given the leadership mindset of what they're doing, that everything that is done there is done with the mindset of how it's going to benefit them. I think we need to watch that, being aware of that. I think diplomatic approach as much as can be. But at the same time, I see nothing wrong with really taking a harder look at what Shackley said, which is how access is provided. There's just no reason why some of these cases that have come up, why the United States, why did we fail in these situations and provided for the Chinese really an ultimate jewel of information that they're able to hack into or people that they plan to Senator Feinstein's office, that's just unacceptable. So I think we have to be less naive and much more, and I don't think that's racist in any way. I think that's just smart national security being much tighter about who we put in key positions that threaten our national security. Yeah, it strikes me when Diane Feinstein's driver was outed. There wasn't that much of a reaction by the United States. And when the stealth bomber plans were stolen, there wasn't that much of a reaction. We never really faced them down on that. And Shackley, don't you think there's a better way to say, look, we got your hand in the cookie jar. We're not going to allow that. You're a bad boy. But we don't do that. We let it go, and then we send a half hour diplomatic staff over there to genuflect. That's not the right message, is it? Well, what Vicky was saying, there's no way anybody that has any sense would go over there and start a business now. They just passed a law that allows the Chinese government to confiscate foreign assets and take foreign employees and put them in prison. That's a happy thought. They think that it affects national security. And they also shut down these, there was like three or four organizations in China that did do due diligence on Chinese companies. So if you wanted to invest in China, you would go to these companies and you say, look, is this a, you know, is this a Tong society organization? Is it mafia? Or is it a real company? And these organizations would, well, they've all been shut down and their computers taken away by the Chinese government. How could we possibly, how could anybody sense make an investment in China now? Let me add to that. Let me add to that. I just heard Kyle Bass make a presentation on this. You know, the Evergreen and the big real estate companies in China that are in financial difficulties now, apparently they issued bonds both in yuan denominations and dollar denominations, which were sold to foreign investors. Well, they're not paying the dividends on the dollar denominated bonds, but they're paying the dividends on the yuan-dominated bonds. So anybody who invested in Chinese real estate is probably out of luck. What happened here? You know, a few years ago, a fellow at the East West Center, Simon Winchester, wrote a book called Pacific. They have various chapters in the book about various places around the Pacific, their history, and what was remarkable about their current contributions to the Pacific. And this was before, as I recall, this was maybe just around the time that she was taking power. But one point he made in the chapter on China was, you know, they have stood up. They are compelled. They are determined to stand up. And they don't like the West that much. And in the long term, they are always going to be not competing but fighting with us and trying to get on top. And we, we're a long way from that. And we don't have the presence or maybe quote the political will to engage close to them the way we might have had we seen as coming. And Winchester's closing thought on that, and this is my closing question to you, is, you know, just got to deal with the reality. We may not be able to compete with them and they will, they are determined to compete with us and they have a certain, you know, advantage in being an autocracy. It can make decisions overnight and implement them without any arguments. So query is Winchester right to be just like fall back and let them do what they want. Now authoritarian regimes last until they don't. And that's usually pretty good. I'm betting on our democratic society where people can, can become, say crazy things and, and, and act crazy and, and they're not putting jail for it. And they, but it, we have, we have a society that has, that has developed incredible creativity, incredible. There's no place in the world like Silicon Valley and the things that have been created there, or SpaceX, or, or, or Tesla, or these, I mean, Tesla is apparently the large, the past or the largest selling electric car in China now. So I wouldn't bet on China, I bet on the US. Did you also hear, did you also hear that the Chinese electric vehicles have now surpassed the ones made in Japan? And guess who's buying them? The Europeans. Well, that's the shuttle to me. Your courtesy of the Europeans. We were brought World War One and World War Two. So consider that one. And on that, I just, I want to offer you a, the last story for your comment, and that is this, you know, the Hawaii Bar Association organized a program which doesn't exist anymore, where we were going to exchange lawyers. We're going to send lawyers to China and we're going to take lawyers from China. And, and one of the revealing features about this is we never sent a single lawyer to China, not in that program. But we got plenty of lawyers who came from China. And of course, they had to be approved to come here. There was one lawyer who made all kinds of inquiry. This is in the early, early ought years. All kinds of inquiry about, about renewable energy, clean energy and what we were doing. And solar, solar cells and, you know, all the hardware that goes with, you know, the inverters, all that. And she was very, very, very curious. And she spent her time here, which was like one semester. Learning about that. And I realized over time that she was on a mission. Later on, not long after, we see China's solar cell industry, its solar panel industry, goes skyrocket. Because that was their mission. Their mission was to be number one in the world on manufacturing solar cells and panels and inverters for that matter. And so they are. Now, they are. And so it was all very friendly, you understand. There's a lot of questions from her about solar panels and cells and what Hawaii, which was ostensibly a leader in the area at the time, was doing. How can we deal with that? It's all very curious. And the notion of exchange, right? I don't know if we still have exchange, but we had a lot of exchange for many years about, you know, how Chinese students and business people would come over and you'd show them through your factory and you'd answer all their questions and show them your technology and they would take it right back. So query, is that still alive? Is that something we should continue to do, Vicki? I think that given the situation now, you know, and I'd like to step back and say, as a country, we should not change our democratic values. That's not what I'm saying. But I think we need to be much more diligent about who we give access to these, to what we have in our country in all industries. I, for one, would not welcome anyone from China. Even a Caucasian doesn't matter if you're from China to come visit our business. I would not welcome that. And it's not because I'm racist, far from it, but it's because I have to protect our company. And so it's the same thing. We have to protect our country. We have to get real and recognize that there is a serious threat to our country. And in order to not have to, you know, be on the defense and play ball when it's too late, we need to step up our I think guardrails now. And so I just be very careful about who we put in certain positions, especially in the computer world. You know, I totally agree that TikTok should not be available in the United States. I support that. Given the times that we are in, we need to be more realistic and more diligent. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Your thoughts on the same question? Well, I totally agree with what she just said. I'd like to sort of, if we're getting towards the end here, make one final comment or observation. I was looking at the waves of Chinese immigration, which is the diaspora. The first wave was in the mid 1800s. And those Chinese people came to America and they built the western half of the transcontinental railroad. And they contributed hugely to the progress and success of the United States. And they did the same here in Hawaii. And now those folks have been very successful and made huge contributions to our country. And we shouldn't forget that in what sometimes sounds like anti-Chinese attitudes. No, we can't forget that. They're part of our country just as much as any of us. It's just that I think we have to recognize what she is saying and what the diaspora means to and how it functions in other places so that we can get a more sophisticated view of things. And I think Hawaii is not a great risk honestly, but there are other places in the country and the world that are at greater risk. Suffice to say, this is a dynamic issue and it will change. The only thing that's constant for a while is he. Resitator for life, huh? That's not like that. Okay, I think we're out of time. Vicki, can we go now? Thank you for having me. Thank you, Vicki. Thank you, Shackley. Great discussion. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.