 Today we hear from a leader in Kenya's Anabaptist movement. Many people are used to thinking of Anabaptism as a North American phenomenon, but actually the Anabaptist movement is much, much broader than that in many other places of the world. Our guest is Amat Thomas. He is a bishop and Christian believers fellowship in the Anabaptist Church. He's also a director of operations for open hands in East Africa. Begin by describing the Anabaptist community in Kenya that you serve. When and where did it begin and what does it look like now? This movement, where I am today was started by Amish Menonite Association way back in 1991. And talking of 1991, the lamp and light, Bible correspondent courses were already available. They were sending those courses to some persons or people in Kenya. It was being a little difficult to send out the courses into Kenya and receive the responses from Kenya. It was taking too long considering the distance and the time. It was fair that it be good that some brothers go out and help with the lamp and light courses on the ground. So lamp and light asked AMA in this case, if they were willing to assist. And two families from the U.S., the Beche churches went out and arrived in a place called Thika in Kenya and then moved to a city called Nakoru in Kenya. They settled there. They were doing the lamp and light courses in terms of handing them over to the student and receiving their responses from the student. But soon the students were asking, where can we find churches? That is when it was felt. Maybe it was time. So congregation started. The first one was Free Area Christian Believers Fellowship. And from there the churches grew. However, with all of this history that I've given, that was not the first time the Anabaptist movement was coming out into the East Africa. If we trace the history, we will find that the Anabaptist movement came into the East African side, including Kenya. Somewhere in 1934, the Lancaster Conference, way back then, sent missionaries onto the Kenyan side. They arrived on the Kenyan coast, moved to a town called Kisumu, crossed the lake to a town in Tanzania, which is another country called Musoma. They started the work in Musoma. Then crossed from Musoma, sent out some of them to the Kenyan side on the southern side of Kisumu. However, there was some fallout in terms of what they were practicing and what the forefathers who died in the course of the Menonite churches' growth, starting the growth, whatever they were doing now was different. The history of the Anabaptist movement is not as recent as 1991. It was early enough, but there is a place where the point was missed. There is a place where there might have been a slowdown in terms of doing it. That is how the Heme now came in the 1990s. As we talk, presently we are having 17 churches that are connected with the Bitiamish Menonite ministers. In this 17, I am glad to say 28 native pastors from Kenya have been ordained. But we also have 12 families who are serving on the ground as missionaries from the U.S., because even as we talk to that, there are those places where people are desiring to have our practices in place. But you see, it's not easy to pull out the natives who have been ordained from their own congregations to send them to those other places. There is the need of those who are saying, we want such a church in our area, but they don't see such a church in the area. For the Kenyan side, I'm thinking of the number of churches. If people were to ask, where can we find such a church, the list might be something that would not even fit onto my palm and fill it, the list of the number of the churches that are available, where people can go and live the Anabaptist way. So here you say there's 17 churches presently. Is the number growing? Is there interest in new churches being planted? You spoke about the 12 missionary families who are still there. Are they actively involved in launching new churches? The missionaries that are there are actively involved in launching of the churches. Let me start from the side of the lamp and light. The lamp and light courses are still going on. There are missionaries that are involved with that. And then we are having places where we are presently doing outreaches. I'm thinking of a county that is called Nyamira County. And in that county, we are having an outreach that is going on. One of the missionary brothers is the one who travels over there, takes him about one and a half hours from his house to that place. There is another outreach that is called Nyakungulu. One of the missionary brothers is the one that is involved because it involves kind of distance traveling. The other outreach that we are soon thinking of is on the far west, on the Kenyan side. Natives may be involved, but also with the presence of missionaries. There is need even on the slight north west of the Kenyan side. Possibility of having two outreaches started out there. You already get the perception. I'm talking of five possible places where there might be need for the workers. The question is, do we pull the natives from their churches, their congregations, where they are already serving and blending well? Have a missionary come into those churches? Or do we possibly think of if there is opportunity, then a missionary might serve in the new stations, but let the natives grow the places that are already established. Thank you for providing that history. So personally, when did you join the movement? Were you there in 1991 when the movement started? How did you get involved and what's your role in it presently? I came into the church in 2008, but I was received into membership because I was coming in already a Christian and baptized and married. So I came in 2008, received as a member in 2009. I look at that as a different story altogether. I was changing cities, moving from one city to another city out of the call of God to go and live and work in the city where I do live presently. I have our home where my parents lived. Their home was becoming desolate and I was like, I don't need to let our home go desolate. So I was moving from another city into this city. My former church, a charismatic evangelical church for that matter, I was coming from the church with even letters of recommendation as a leader because I was already a leader. So coming out already as a leader into the city where I was relocating to, I internally felt it was not good that I go into another church and give my recommendation letters even into leadership and probably have another leader feeling he's threatened I'm going to take on his position. So I struggled with that. And while traveling on my way, I often drove past this church in a rural city and my thoughts started flashing around this rural church with a signpost that had always seen as I drove past it on my way into the new city where I was going. That is I walked into the church on a Sunday. While attending the church service, I got captured by something that happened on that Sunday in that church. I wasn't decided yet that I was going to be in this church. But after the message, the pastor that was moderating the service stood up and made comments, confessing of a wrong that he had done in his speech to the congregation the previous Sunday. He confessed this as seen publicly with a lot of humility because the congregation where had been in the Pentecostal and charismatic very fiery background that was unheard of. How does a pastor begin to confess his weakness? And I was like, I need to come back here. However, the way they were dressing, I wasn't with my wife. I was coming over, building our house over to move to. So my wife was not with me and I struggled with the way I saw them dressed. I was like, I want to be back here. But what about my wife? When I shared with her, she was like, yeah, I would love to see that church. Down the line when she came, she took a look and she did not really grumble. She was like, it's okay. Let us be here. That story can continue on and on and on. But that is how I initially stepped into the church. I got in as a member now in 2009. I was sitting at the back, just as a member. I was glad I found a place where I could be hiding. At the back, I was no longer a leader. But that changed at some point, as I don't understand many details, but as I understand presently you're in church leadership. So how did you get from the point of being able to hide in the back and rest, actually taking a lot of responsibility within the church again? You know the ways of God are not our ways. By the grace of God, I was asked to help with translation. And did I say I was not so good in this local language, but I don't know why the Lord chose that I go and help with that translation. Soon there was the reorganization of the church offices. Then the voice of the Lord called me to help as an adult Sunday school teacher. And it was not for one season. They again reelected me for another time. I was doing it cheerfully. Just about one year and some months down the line, the church was like we need to have new ministers. And my name came forth. I was put in as a pastor in the end of 2010. I served the war transitions. The missionary bishop left. We had a native bishop, a native bishop left for some reasons. And down the line again we had a missionary bishop stepping in to assist the church. 2018 I was ordained as a bishop. I wouldn't say against my will. I allowed my name to stand, but I look at it as in the will of the Lord. You see, the unique thing is I came into this church not too late. I came into the church to rest and to hide. And here I am today with a call of a bishop for my congregation wherein I do serve not as my people, but with the role that I have to play in the church as a bishop. And also I was given a mandate to help with the oversight of one of the sister congregations that is about 30 minutes away from my home. So I'm presently helping with leadership in those two churches, not to mention the overall brotherhood of the 17 churches. We do meet and we share things together. So yes, here I am under the yoke of the Lord to serve him as a leader for his flock. Well thank you for sharing that. That's an amazing story of from beginning to attend a church, hoping to sit in the back and hide, to within two years being the pastor. That's quite the rapid journey. Describe the broader religious situation of Kenya and what are the unique advantages and disadvantages of operating as a church with Anabaptist emphasis in your setting. If we look at the Christian terrain in Kenya, I've had of different figures in terms of the percentage of the Kenyan population. That is Christian. There is a figure of about 81% are Christian. And I also come across the figure of 79 point something that is Christian. But you look at the common things that are happening in Kenya. You want to question how can it be that out of every five people four are Christians. And yet we still have these issues that we are observing. I think we are more of 80% nominal Christians. The nominal side in all of these ratios would come out from an emphasis that we've had. We are having such a long stretch of a line of Christians but when we begin to dig deep, it's so disappointing that we may be shallow as a nation in terms of the depth to which we go. On the other side, amongst the Protestants and even the evangelicals, we will again find the message that sounds so sweet to the ears, the message of prosperity is taking root and being so loud across the land. And also the side of the gospel that tends to arouse the emotions rather than the gospel that seeks to sink the hearts of the people deep into the Lord and soak them deeply into His Word. When you look at the practices now of the prosperity gospel, masses that are seeking miracles, practices of things like child baptism and also the tone of tolerance to sin in the church rather than standing and being clear, taking out the element of sin from the church while being able to receive sinners who are truly repented, that is missing. And so the place of the Anabaptist movement on the Kenyan terrain, he is coming in with clear and stronger discipleship, really making disciples for the Lord, not disciples for the church, disciples for the Lord from the sense of teaching His Word in its purity, upholding the sanctity of the Word of the Lord. That is a place that I see, the Anabaptist church, even as I joined, that is a thing that I loved about the church. And I'm looking at the views of the Anabaptist as pacifists, people that are lovers of peacemaking. I find that missing because how can a nation that is 80% Christian rise up in huge protests, we even killed each other. Now the Anabaptist movement, I like the side of being peacemakers. And beyond that, having the clear understanding of the separation of the church as the people that are called to separate from the world and thereby separating from the state, if we continue in that way, we would be well positioned as a people that are not prone and sold out into the political gimmicks that are right there in our land. And as I came into the church, I embraced those. I see those that are in the church. I'm embracing those. And we are keen on practicing even church discipline. We are keen on exercising brotherhood accountability, holding each other accountable and in a transparent way, with nothing being hidden. I love those things and I see those things on the Anabaptist side. And across the fence, I see what's wanting and what could be killing Christianity. So I'd like to invert that question a bit. What do you see as distinctive strengths or insights that Kenyan Christianity can offer that aren't so much present in Christianity in other parts of the world? The thing I like about the Kenyan Christianity that stands out to me is the passion. There is prominent passion in the masses. That is something that is evident. I also think of the place of love in the brotherhood and I see that as coming out. So well, members identify with each other. Africa from the traditional sense was a relations-based culture and to an extent that has been carried right into the church. We are more relational. We are not disjointed. So when we belong, we belong. And I identify with my fellow, brother or sister is one with me in our walk in the Lord. You see the African way I can say, bye to you shaking your hand. Not only once. I may shake your hand even for five times. And still we go on and on and on. And it's like, I'm not getting tired. I want to hurry up and leave. On the other side, we are there for each other. We have that sense of let's take our time. That is a tendency that I see as a strength that there is in us. So how has the broader culture responded to the Anabaptist churches in Kenya that you are involved with? The Anabaptist movement, as we are, have faced certain times opposition, resistance from the broader culture. Missionaries like Ken Miller is served in my own congregation, almost being killed by a mob. Maybe something like two miles away or less from the church. Why? What was happening? I think seeds had been planted towards rejecting the Anabaptist movement. And why would some people desire to have the Anabaptist movement rejected? It came into our land. It was very clear that it was pulling people away from cultural practices that were not honoring God. We were coming in over the Anabaptist movement. We were strong against these practices. And of course, resistance when the church members are not honoring the cultural practices, it was like it was opening a stage for hills, bad omen, bad things to befall the community. You think of the fight against HIV and the cultural practices. And you think of the position of Anabaptist movement with regards to marriage, one man, one wife in faithfulness. You look at that and you see its place in the fight against HIV and AIDS. You will appreciate the position of the Anabaptist movement. But the community was like promiscuity is okay. Here we were building a wall against polygamy, building a wall against promiscuity in a place where it is embraced. Again, look at it from another, angling on the wall. Our fellow Christians, some were steeped in the prosperity gospel and here was the Anabaptist movement not beckoning on people to give and be blessed. They were not happy at all because it was like this is taking away members from their congregations and so they would maybe set a stage to find offense with the church and inside the masses against the church. There is this word that I found around the church. I will say it as it was said and then try to translate it. The church and the missionaries was referred to us, kachinja, chinja. That means the ones who slaughter and suck. That was a reference that was used against the church, the Anabaptist church, just because the others couldn't understand our stands on culture, our stands against the prosperity probably gospel. In the broader culture, that is what we are faced. It's not been an easy walk. I have one final question in this episode and that is what is the situation of Christian schools and homeschools? How do you think about education and the responsibility of the church for education and the life of its members? We are having homeschooling and we are also having Christian schools and both the fundamental question to ask is what curriculum are they using? You can be doing homeschooling but using the curriculum that embraces things to do with evolution. You are only keeping your child away from the environmental influence of the others but still allowing your child to absorb the content that is unbodally. Homeschools are there particularly in a city like Nairobi. I know of those that are already homeschooling their children but when seek to find out what curriculums are they using, some are using the local curriculum, some are using curriculum that are brought in from the British system, some are using curriculum that is brought in from the U.S. but the secular. There are also those that are using the Christian curriculum. Christian schools can be permitted to operate and when you think of the foundation of formal education in Kenya it was started by Christian missionaries. The disadvantage that we have is when we are desiring to use Christian curriculum in our teaching. It is not yet recognized Christian curriculum by our education department and system and even the employer they don't have a place for that. So I'm looking and hoping that the dialogue we are having around Christian schools that are offering Christian curriculum one day it will materialize. I'm curious you mentioned that employers don't recognize Christian curriculum. So for students who go to a Christian school or homeschool using a Christian curriculum, does that disadvantage them when they are looking for a job? Are they unable to find employment because of that? It disadvantages them when they're looking for a job. So the employers do know and decognize some of the difficulties in terms of its Christian content delivery or development. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode. It's been a delight to hear from you. How God has taken your life and about the churches you serve in Kenya. I will say thank you to your audience wherever they are. May the Lord bless them for their time. Thank you for joining us for this episode and thanks to our donors and partners for making this possible. We publish essays on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. We also release these essays in narrated form as their own podcast called Essays for King Jesus.