 Good morning again in case you're just joining us is the breakfast and plus TV Africa and it's time for our first hot topic And during governors, they're kicking against federal governments directives on refund of palliative fund They've been giving five billion error. Well, that has been approved for them already two billion error I've been given to them out of the five billion error But they've been told that they would have to refund the money and to that idea saying no if we refund it How is it a palliative? Well, I guess this morning is Mohammed Abdullah. He public affairs analyst And he's joined us to take a look at this. Good morning to you Mohammed Yeah, good morning Nigerians. There's a pleasure to be here All right, so Mohammed when this news broke out on Friday Thursday Friday when after they had that meeting About the federal government's approval of that money Well, we didn't get to know where some of us didn't get to know the kind of heated argument that followed that agreement You know that it was there was a shouting match over this Directive to have that money returned at the end of the day How do you see this? New development or how did you process it when it broke out on Thursday Friday? Yeah, I think I would like to side with the governors on this issue because if you are giving a grant or a Loan, I think that should be that there's a specific Difference between what a grant is and then what a loan is The government's I mean the federal government in this instance Is saying is a grant for you know the sake of palliatives in order to cushion the effect of the subsidy removal Then I don't see any reason why it should be tied to a loan repayment On the other hand, I think it would have been Wiser from the federal government to specifically mention at the beginning of all this that know this wouldn't be Like a grant or like a charity disbursement. It would be a loan. So it means Each state that is some that feels it is capable or that feels it needed that kind of intervention We're actually apply and get such loan We're in which all the repayment Plans would have been discussed and then you know acceptable by each party involved But you know, it's a different argument on this instance at the beginning of all this mention. It's you know It's just to question the palliatives of Is just to question the effect of subsidy and this is like you know to be disbursed as Palliatives and even gives a kind of guideline on how states should go about it and what states should expect So I think it's right for the government. I mean for the state governors to not in this time's protest, but at least You know complain about the idea of repayment mind you If you look at some of the challenge some of the complaints of the state governors is the fact that most times The sectarian of the Nigerian Governors for things like these are usually discussed first, you know, and then they take a Unified position at least majority of them will have taken a unified position before Accepting such kind of offer or they are making their own kind of offer to the federal government But in this instance is like the federal government just made a direct a directive Took a position alongside the chairman of the Nigerian Governors for I mean You know, it's like is binding upon all other governors So they feel is not proper. They feel that's not the way The procedures of the Nigerian government and I don't know this is wrong, you know So I think I side with the Nigerian governors in this instance So what you said to those who say who are side who would side the federal government and say look the federal government Is not saying that they should repay the hundred percent of it They're saying 52 percent of this money is given to the states as grants while 48 percent of the five billion Is to be paid back on an installment basis within 20 months to the CBN by the states and the local government areas In nature, you do not think that the federal government is being fair in saying that 48 percent of it should be returned Yes, you might be right to say in terms of fairness fairness, but again Was this discussed was this accepted by the majority of the people? I mean the state governors now to whom this This grant or you know this loan depending on what you want to call it is to be close to you know So that is the challenge, you know, you just The challenge for me. I think is the fact that the state governors were not carrying alone So they felt it's like a decision by the federal government the presidency and then to their dismay again Is that just one of their own who happened to be their team at their leader now? Accepted that without discussing with with them at their own level So I think that is even the major grievances because that seems to be like they have been handed out things without their own approval to their own knowledge and They feel to be a kind of secondary In the decision-making Opportunity that arises there So I think that is the major challenges. I understand that it's not a hundred percent that they're to pay back like you mentioned 48% of the 4 billion or 5 billion because that's another challenge. What we've been seeing here. We've had 5 billion But what we've been seeing flying online even in the communique is 4 billion, you know, but so What the challenge is the discussion the acceptance of the terms and conditions of either this loan or grants by the federal government So I think that is the major issue and I think this is is there should be a way forward there in Probably in some other decisions that will affect my gerians and particularly You want the state governments to to take charge? We need to have an inclusive discussion with all stakeholders so that this kind of a situation would arise I'm just wondering why did the governors even not say we are not ready because none of them seems to have a Register or Data that they're going to disperse this money. What are what are they going to do with the 5 billion? Are they going to to just give out to people who they call porous of the poor or are they going to put it in infrastructure? That will be beneficial to everybody and all that I know the federal government has dictated to them the kind of things that they Need to do but you know, if you make a calculation of 105 billion five billion times the 36 states will give you like a hundred and eighty billion that Naira and as far as I'm concerned 200 billion or 200 million people are the ones that are poor in Nigeria They're the rest the number that is above the 200 million will be the ones that are really rich So if you are dividing that by 200 million you will get just 900 Naira for every individual But the state governors didn't say we are not ready. We don't have data We don't know what we are going to do how we're going to disperse this money They're just fighting over the fact that they were asked to return this money They're not being selfish in some way. Yes, you're right But again if you've been following the proceedings you understand that for instance the choir state government for instance, which I know have come out with a kind of You know a template and a plan on how to actually disperse the money so perhaps Maybe the chairman of the Nigerian governor's forum has is one step ahead of his colleagues I don't know but I have seen online verify the Handle of the state governor. I mean Abdulrahman Mentioning what they intend to do With with the money disbursed. In fact, he they laid out a template of what they need to do From words to look at government and and so on and so forth Majority what I see is the is for instance taking the choir state government as an example Is that they want to use a lot of majority of the monies to to disperse food? Because that's the challenging thing here in Nigeria, you know, most people are hungry If you go online take samples in the social circles, you understand that the major situation confronting Nigerians daily is the fact that The prices of food have skyrocketed people cannot longer feed probably three times daily is now one time or two times for those People are even privileged. So the choir state government for instance is saying yeah, majority of these things will go into Ensuring that the poorest of the poor Will will get to have food But mind you again, there is no clear template on how to like you rightly mentioned in terms of data on how to Indicate it who is actually the poorest of the poor, you know Government officials going to march on every street in choir state or even all over Nigeria to indicate Or to ensure or to know Who is poorest of the poor? How do they intend to do that and so on and so on that's where data comes in You know, we keep happening on the fact that we don't have accurate data I don't want to believe that we don't have data at all in any part of Nigeria I sincerely don't want to believe because we have a whole a whole lot of agencies The mbs Even the mpc and so on and so forth who are charged with this responsibility Yeah, but but I think the major issue is the accuracy of salt data and how updated it is for instance the last time we had sensors was must that was was more than almost I think 20 years ago or so or 15 or so years ago. So but How how how do we update these things? How do update the data that we have because we keep saying we don't have data at all Which I don't think is true But how we do update because as time keeps as as the years keep rolling by We needed to be updating what we have You know to to to to be accurate. So, um, but but but that's a big challenge I to I think to my understanding The each state governor will look at each sector What they feel is the pressing need in their respective state. There will never be a general template. I understand that So each state governor. I think is that the wins of the caprices of the state government respectively across the country to look at each sector that is That they needed to impute that money so that it will affect their citizens and their people The very best but they think sorry they the government that is the governor's even the federal government The same fire removed from what the people really are experiencing And you talk about data that they have it's just that it's not accurate Even the npc settled with the responsibility of getting our data The last time they told us about our population. They say it's estimated at maybe 210 or so they they are not even sure of the number let alone knowing who is in need of what and all that Now the my worry is a democracy should be About the people and what they want How much consultation? Have these governors even made with their people to know what they want? I give you an instance Morin always says I talk about my village, but if you go to my village I doubt if what they want is 990 per person or some other food that you're going to give us If you have money to buy a bag of rice people in my village will will prefer you giving us Cartoons of herbicides for instance that we can use to make our farms to weed our farms to clear the grasses and all that That way after they are during the harvest season We will have more food rather than giving us a bag of rice that we'll eat and finish or maybe share among us With money that could have bought more than a carton of herbicide. Do you understand what I'm saying? So the governors have not done anything to interact with the people and know what they really want they're just sitting in their state houses and thinking of the things that the people should want Do you think that is the right thing to do if you want to give palliatives to the poorest of the poor? It is not absolutely and that's what I mentioned earlier that it be hopes on each state government, you know to look at the respective Areas respective sectors in their respective state Where these funds will be best channel to affect their citizens and people the very best Yes, like you said you said quara has already done that did quara do the needful No, no, I mentioned I said they They made a template particularly on social media on how we wanted to dispose the money majorly in You know creating a kind of What I would call Food food palliative it for instance, but again still the challenge like I mentioned earlier is the fact that There is no clear template to indicate or to say These are the poorest of the poor that this will get to You know, so if you allow me come back to your to your to your to your statement earlier again Now, you know, you made mention of your village. What your village needs Even in I don't know where your village is. Let's let's say let's say reverse it for instance It is it's actually will be different from what probably even the next village that borders your village Need, you know, so so it's it's it's not a general thing. We are on the same Page yeah, there should be like you rightly mentioned Which I agree with there should be a kind of I don't want to use what investigation but a kind of Like like like check a kind of discussion with the stakeholders. Yeah, what are the people? You know to say what do you actually need? There shouldn't be a blanket general, you know Assumption from the state governors and the state government to say, okay, no This is who everybody just did a bag of right because that's in fact That seems to be like the general thing most of them probably are looking at just bags of rice here and there and then so on But I think it should it should be beyond that What does the people do the people need and then how best can we achieve this because even when we say food here Like you gave a very good analogy When we say food here, it doesn't mean yes, it must be rice. It must be maize. It must be that Yeah, we can also generate more food by ensuring that Farm produce are better farm produce are more like you rightly mentioned So if you have a herbicides, you know to produce more which is better You know than just say giving a cup of rice or even a bag of rice that might not take more than one month And it's gone So I think it's because of the government like I keep saying to actually look at properly What the the people need and how do they do this? It's not just like you said by sitting down in their governor's government houses and just assume it No, no, they need probably a town hall meeting. I know in most of the city for instance in Lagos Where I where I am at the moment. I know in my community. We have a community development association We have a chairman who understand the basic need of our community Immediately, so I think government can leverage on that probably call up a town hall meeting of community development associations of You know, maybe probably head of community development associations in their respective states and then discuss this thing and then From there, they should be able to pick up One or two things that really they are the various community needs in their various states. All right, so Mohammed, it does appear That we stand the risk of having this palliative bungled. We've been asking for palliatives palliatives The money has come. We're not satisfied that it's enough to achieve What we need to be achieved to effectively cushion the effects of the subsidy removal On one of the dailies this morning the Guardian newspaper. You have condemnation trails around the distribution of palliatives in Lagos It does appear also to us as I said that we may we stand the risk of bungling this the state Governors how ready are they in their own space to help their people fix the problems that have a reason from this you know fell subsidy removal that they are suffering from and do we also stand the risk of after now Whatever they decide to do with this five billion era either accept it or reject it Do we stand to see a situation where after now Nigerians are still wondering where are the palliatives? We need more palliatives and then what what then after that? Your questions are quite entangled, but Let me answer the best of my ability. I think I think firstly Yes, one of our challenges is that From from every facet of our lives in Nigeria. We don't really prepare. We like to be very reactionary You know, we like to react to things rather than be Approactive Like you rightly mentioned. Yes The party they have been removed something I've been removed now for at least two months or more but then there seems to be a slow pace from every Uh Part of government say federal state and even local government on how to really question this effect, you know So it's that that's a big problem. You know and now that A little I wouldn't say much is being done a little is being done in the in the case of this five billion being disbursed In which two billion has already been disbursed We we we we it is challenging again because we are not prepared. We actually don't know What to do particularly with these monies because at this moment it it it it would have been better that Each of the state government are actually prepared. They have their template. They've made their research They've done their community discussions. They've done their you know, stakeholder discussion And then as soon as the money comes in Boom is being channeled towards these things that are may identify to affect the people more But at the moment it seems this is even the right This is even the moment that perhaps most of the state governments will begin to you know Look at okay, where can we put this money in what can we do? Which which which is not good enough So it we needed to be more active in our actions. We needed to like think ahead You know beyond like just be active. So I agree with you Okay, go ahead, please Then secondly to your question of even being enough, you know, come on 200 million people Five billion or why it's something billion if you look at the total that's that's a very powerful song Has a very powerful song In all ramifications. So it's it's just like a drop of water in an ocean, you know So with the millions of challenges affecting nigerians transportation food Insecurity and so many other things that you can think of it's it's it's it's just like a starting point You know, you know when you just like you're trying to walk and then you are taking those baby crawling steps So I believe It's a starting point and then the state governors as well We we are here with this. We understand that from from july The the the was the disbursement to each governor's I mean to each government and state government was more Compared to what we used to have in the past perhaps from the savings of Subsidy removal. So I think these are also at the news for government for state governors to do more You know, because we we just keep happening on Concentrating on the federal government at most times in Nigeria But we needed now to you know start holding state governors accountable and probably even the local local government And so on if the autonomy because they've been granted autonomy if their monies are are being disbursed to them directly Also, they are the closest to their To the people and to the citizens We need to start holding these two tiers of government accountable for what they do with these monies In fact now that they have more Annotations as a result of subsidy savings. Indeed, but would you suggest that civil society groups begin to mount pressure On these leaders at states levels and local government levels too Let them know that just as all eyes on the judiciary all eyes on them too to see what they do with these monies because We have the two challenges of one the lack of trust, you know Confidence in these governors and the fact that they appear not to be ready at all to do anything They're not ready for the money they've gotten They're not ready to have done something on their own for their people had they not gotten any money from the federal government Yeah, I agree with you not only the civil society organizations in fact as as every nigerian I think is our responsibility to hold our government accountable from all levels I know the freedom of information bill has been passed and a lot of people Not only civil organizations a lot of people are taking advantage of that to Request for what government is doing. So I think it behoves on every one of us myself and yourself inclusive particularly the journalist here We shouldn't just rely on what the government turns out as As news, you know, we should go beyond that to investigate are these things really happening because yeah Like you mentioned there's lack of trust between the citizenry and the government So if the governor says or the government says like I even mentioned earlier The the the one five billion I've been moving around but what I'm seeing in the document is four billion if you calculate 2.80 billion that is said to be the 50 percent and one million nine and 20 that is said to be the 48 percent What I'm seeing is four billion. So I you know, there are some of the challenges So um, so we should investigate more. We should dig deeper and ask government questions as people government as sorry ask Let people ask government questions I I I don't understand the fact that sometimes we have One-on-one situations with these governors or even this local government chairman or even with the president and we ask them Uh question that doesn't really you know make any impact on the citizenry We should go deep and ask Nailed by two questions and ask what are they doing and why are they doing and how are they expending Taxpayers money and for what reason and so on and so forth. So it's very important that the government is held accountable by all and some do Not only the civil society organizations Indeed indeed. Thank you so much. Muhammad abdullahi for your time on the breakfast this morning Thank you very much. Muhammad abdullahi public affairs analysts has joined us on the first hot topic On the breakfast you take a break and come back with the second hot topic. Do stay with us