 Welcome, everyone. Welcome, friends of Anthony Hyman, friends of SOAS, distinguished guests and visitors, students and colleagues to the 21st annual Anthony Hyman lecture, which was first delivered in 2003. I'm Scott Newton. I have the post in the Laws of Central Asia here on the head of the School of Law, Gender and Media, and I'm the chair of this Center for Contemporary Caucuses in Central Asia. I'm here to introduce Sheikh Harzad Akbar, so I'll be brief, who will talk to us about repression and resistance, the struggle of women's rights in Afghanistan. The Anthony Hyman Memorial Lecture has become an established annual event at SOAS now entering its third decade. I'm pleased to announce bringing together those with an interest in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia, and providing an opportunity for leading scholars, opinion farmers and policymakers to reflect on issues of topical interest. The continuing success of the Anthony Hyman Memorial Lectures is a testament to the impact which Anthony had on thinking about Afghanistan and the affection in which he was held by his many friends and associates. Anthony, a SOAS graduate was expert on Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Central Asia, and the commentator for the BBC World Service for more than 20 years. Anthony was a linguist, historian, bibliophile, art lover and traveler. And just to remind you, the lecture series is sustained on the strength of donations as well as a contribution from SOAS. So please do consider making a donation to the Anthony Hyman Memorial Fund to help cover the costs of the lecture in the future. The lecture series is equally a labor of love and of fundraising, or perhaps of love made manifest by fundraising, as well as attendance and support. I'm particularly delighted to welcome Shahghar Assad here tonight. Indeed, she has graced and honored our series and all attending tonight with her presence. She is a particularly notable versatile and longstanding human rights activist from Afghanistan, having served as the director of the open society, Afghanistan, and the chair of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, as well as running a Kabul consultancy firm supporting Afghan civil society and advising the former government on development issues. Her commentary, journalism and scholarly analysis is widely published in Afghan and international media, including foreign affairs, Washington Post, Newsweek, CNN, Al Jazeera, et cetera, as well as academic journals. Shahgharzad completed an MFIL at Oxford and previously obtained a BA from Smith College in the US. For reasons acutely felt by all of us here today, Shahgharzad is currently in exile. She is a visiting scholar at Wilson College, Oxford, and Academy Associate with Chatham House. She lives and works in the UK as executive director of what of what our daddy, her recently established Afghan Human Rights Organization. She has been very extensively involved in human rights advocacy and related media and cultural activities and youth mobilization in Afghanistan, and has tirelessly campaigned for accountability and a just piece before inter highly other Security Council and the human UN Human Rights Council. She's a board member for the International Service for Human Rights and a member of the International Advisory Council at the Institute for Integrated Transitions. A year ago, when we last convened, we were still all reeling from the extraordinary events of the previous summer which saw a chaotic mass exodus from Afghanistan, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the state building project of the west which undergirded it and the re-ascendancy of the Taliban. Although the Afghan crisis remains emphatically that a crisis, it has been displaced from public consciousness and the front pages by the passage of time and the follow on the disruption of invasion and war in Europe. But Shahadzad will remind us forcefully tonight that the catastrophe a year and a half ago was no culmination or even any resolution, whatever the conclusions of the retreating interventionists. The Afghans remaining at home and those seeking refuge abroad and Afghan women in particular have only intensified their struggles for rights and recognition, since the Taliban began governing nearly the entirety of Afghan geographic space. The Taliban are far or perhaps even farther than ever, however, from governing Afghan mental or moral space, space which Shahadzad and her diverse collaborators and allies and supporters and constituencies are continuing courageously and incessantly to contest. Thank you for that really generous introduction and by handling and good evening everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here for for your interest in Afghanistan and for your continued solidarity. I also want to extend a special thank you to those who are celebrating now rose because I know this is the eve of now rose and people want to be with their families so thank you. Thank you for joining here or virtually. I'm really honored. I'm really honored to be speaking to you this evening and to be part of Anthony Heyman lecture series, knowing about him and his legacy has been extremely inspiring. And also, I'm inspired and humbled because many great speakers came before me in this lecture series. I'm truly also intimidating. Tonight I want to talk about the struggle for women's rights in Afghanistan. You have all heard about the Taliban's oppressive policies, about how it has been one bad news after the other, the ban on secondary education, the ban on women working and the restrictions on women's movements, all aspects of women's rights and freedoms are being curtailed by the Taliban rule. The situation in Afghanistan has been called a gender apartheid by many activists. Even UN special rapporteur for Afghanistan has called the situation pantomount to gender apartheid. We have all heard about all of this, but today I want to talk about the resistance to these oppressive policies, and especially those resisting these policies inside Afghanistan. As early as 17 August 2021, we saw women marching on streets of Kabul, demanding for rights. Since then, they are not on the news so much, but women have continued to resist by marching on the streets but also adapting other creative ways. They are continuing to educate. They are continuing to learn. They are drawing graffiti at night. They have produced poetry and music. They have held secret classes. They have established libraries. Women are advocating locally and internationally for Afghanistan, and they have carried a range of other civic and creative initiatives. Some male activists have also stood up for the rights of women inside Afghanistan through acts of civil disobedience. Taliban's response to the civic activism of women in main Afghanistan has been threats, repression, detention, and torture of activists and protesters, and even detention and torture of their family members. Several of, as I speak now to you, several of Afghan activists, protesters and journalists are currently in detention with their families unable to contact them. So who are the women who are resisting Taliban inside the country? They are, I won't talk about them because they are not only resisting as individuals but they have managed to in this difficult almost 21 months form collectives. These collectives are the most consistent, if not the only, civic resistance to Taliban inside the country. They are continuing to defy Taliban and face off intimidation, arrests, and torture. The women who are part of these collectives come from different parts of Afghanistan, while they are mostly educated, they also mostly struggle with economic hardship in their own lives, they have lost jobs, and they operate with very limited resources. They do not have international funding or political support. Most of them do not have a background of activism or even working for the induce, and most of them are also new to mobilizing and to addressing the international community as an audience. Despite all this, they have continued and deterred, and they have slowly expanded their membership and reach. While the future of these collectives remain very uncertain, particularly with the brutal crackdown by the Taliban, understanding them, paying attention to them and to their demands, and providing support to them can keep us close to ground in Afghanistan and keep the light on. For me personally, these women on the front lines of resistance to Taliban are the biggest source of hope and motivation. But I also say this fully conscious of my own position of privilege and safety, and being mindful of the burden that I and other activists in diaspora might be putting on these women. I want to share the stories of two women that I have gotten to know in the past few months as a way of providing a window into women's resistance inside Afghanistan. Hamasa is in her mid 40s. She's a mother and a teacher. She lives outside Kabul, and she travels to Kabul from her province to join protests, often covered in Chaudhary, and often with her son or another male family member. She has also been running a home school for girls. Prior to collapse of Kabul, she had never worked for a human rights organization. She doesn't speak English. She also did not previously define herself as an activist. Since she has started participating in these street protests, an immediate family member of her, Aman, was detained by Taliban to deter her from her work. She continued learning her home classes, and she most recently signed an open letter to the international community, demanding non-recognition of Taliban, enclosure of their office in Doha. She was one of the 800 signatories inside Afghanistan who signed this letter that lays out eight demands to the international community. More than 750 of these signatories were women from different parts of Afghanistan, different provinces of Afghanistan. Another activist that I have gotten to know is Parisa. She was an athlete. She was a bodybuilding coach, and then she joined the provincial authority for sports. She got a government job. She wanted to expand opportunities for sport for women in her province. For a while after the Taliban takeover, she held out hope that her life would eventually return to normal because she was still not fired from her job. She would go in once a month, sign her attendance papers, and she would get paid. And she thought, you know, eventually Taliban will reduce restrictions. Then she and all her female colleagues were fired, and the private gym in the province was closed. It was then that she and a few of her students decided to organize the protests. They thought they had nothing more left to lose. She, as Parisa, has been involved in organizing protests only for a few months. And despite this, she was arrested by Taliban and held in detention for 48 hours in early February. These two women are among hundreds of women who turned to activism following Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan. They were not part of what Denise Kendiati has in an earlier lecture in the series, referred to as donor-driven gender activism. They come mostly from outside Kabul, but also inside Kabul. Most of them were previously civil servants or teachers. And they have gathered, some of them, some of these collectives have gathered under the umbrella of what they call Afghanistan's women protestor movements coalition. So there were several small groups, but they have now come together and formed a coalition. A few of the groups are collectives that are active inside Afghanistan or outside this collection, this coalition, but they are also engaged in street protests. These collectives have members in different parts of Afghanistan. They are not just protesting on the streets, as I said before, similar to Hamoza. Some of them run secret classes or schools, and some may have never attended a street protest, but they have support and solidarity with the protesters. And they participate in some other activities, such as secret gatherings to mark occasions, to read poetry, or just to be together in the same space with other women who care and fight for women's rights. They often organize themselves through WhatsApp. They are small in numbers and they are under threat from the Taliban, and they are often unknown to or ignored by the international community. These groups are still developing their narrative and strategy, as well as defining their relationship to each other and to activists in politicians and diaspora. So what is their narrative? What do they say about themselves? At this stage in developing their narrative, they seem to be mostly focused on an Afghan audience. The first thing they want to do is to defy Taliban's narrative about them. What the Taliban say about these women protesters, or anyone really defying Taliban or standing up to the Taliban, is that they are a small group of women who are looking for asylum. That they don't really care about the situation in Afghanistan. So these women really emphasize their grassroots nature, and they talk about that they are not connected to politicians abroad, that this is not a political project of someone outside. That they are organic, that they are sustaining themselves, they are raising funds to print banners or to buy internet for each other so that they can stay connected. And they are very aware that their activism might be hijacked for political reasons. So a number of them have actually taken the time to write and publish an op-ed in a woman-run media in exile, and I want to quote from this op-ed what they say about themselves. The young women of Afghanistan across the country started their resistance against the Taliban when cities, in Jews and institutions were emptied by those claiming to be rights activists, the politicians and the groups and individuals who politically and financially benefited from the cause of women's rights. As you can imagine, this doesn't make for the easiest relationship between them and those of us in diaspora, but overall the activists in diaspora have been mostly at least verbally supportive of the activists on the ground. They refer to the protesters on the ground, they try to morally support them and amplify their cause. The demand from activists on the grounds for those of us in diaspora is more meaningful support that you continue to consult with us. They say that we enable their access to policymakers outside Afghanistan because they believe they should be the ones that are speaking for Afghan women, and they should have direct access to policymakers in the West. And they also are in need of financial assistance too, by computers, you know, have internet, have banners, these simple things that they need. Although in a sense they are very new because most of these protesters weren't the names that we knew, they were on the prominent faces that we had before the fall of Kabul, we already see an evolution in the way that they are organizing themselves. In the immediate post-August 2021, the demand was the world should do something, the international community should do something. So I kept asking, what exactly do you want me to tell the policymakers, what should the world do? And they said, but the world should do something. One of them wrote to me saying, if the US wants to do something, they can do something, they have to figure that out, but they have to do something, the situation is not tolerable. But now we see that they are making their demands more specific. So they're asking very specifically about non-recognition of Taliban and steps that the international community, particularly the UN, but also different countries can take to hold them accountable. So they have, they are slowly evolving, they are realizing that when they are talking to an international audience as they did through this letter on 8th March, it had the people signed. They have realized that the same question keeps coming back to them. What do you want us to do? So they're trying to clarify that and they're having a lot of internal conversations about that. Who are their audiences? Their audiences are both Afghan and international, because they also produce content, especially they have a Twitter page, this coalition that I was talking about. They have these videos where they're asking main to stand in solidarity with them, they're asking other Afghans to stand in solidarity with them. So there's a lot of content and a lot of messaging that's geared towards Afghans themselves. And they also of course have an international audience. It has been interesting to see their evolution, because initially it was mainly an international audience. But I think there's a little bit of despair sitting in as well, that the world is not coming to the rescue, that we have to, we have to think about other ways of moving forward. It's partly that it's partly the fact that they're also realizing that Afghans are responding to them. So they're trying to engage the Afghan audience. What's their strategy? What do they want to achieve? So far they're really focused on expanding their reach inside Afghanistan and finding new ways to raise their voice while minimizing the risk to themselves and their families. So these are the two main priorities for them. How do we find new members? How do we expand our reach? We are provinces where we don't know any educated women that we can find educated women and get in touch with them. But also, how do we continue to raise our voice without increasing the risk for ourselves and our families? So they're doing these video messages with their faces covered or doing post music, singing songs. Again, you can see their face, but they're trying to get a message across or doing open letters, trying to find ways other than going on the street and kind of physically confronting the Taliban. There's also increasingly in their conversations and awareness and recognition that external factors alone can change the situation on the ground. So there's a lot of anger about the fact that the world is indifferent to the plight of Afghan women. But with this anger, there's also recognition that even if the world wanted to do something, that alone is not enough. They continuously talk about how Maine are not standing in solidarity with them, how not enough Maine are standing in solidarity with them. And in one of the conversations, one of the protesters was talking, was saying, you know, we understand that for Maine, they might think that security risk is higher, that Taliban will directly shoot at them while they may not shoot at a woman. But it's not, it's not the man not attending the protests. That's so heartbreaking for us. It's the fact that we, when we are attending the protests, they are making fun of us. The shopkeeper might be making fun of us. Our people refuse to print our banners. Or when we are running away from the Taliban and want to hide in a shop, they will not let us in. So it's not that they are not actively standing in solidarity with us and marching on the street with us. They even joined the Taliban in mocking us and belittling our efforts. And that shows us that we have a long way to go because we have so much change that we have to work on. Of course, this is also a reflection by them on how much had changed in Afghanistan, but also how much had, how much more work needed to be done. So put in the context of Afghanistan's long struggle for gender equality. For a few decades, if not longer, these collectives follow an existing tradition of activism, and that's since they are not new women were doing, you know, women were running secret schools when the first time in Taliban were in power in the 1990s. In Pakistan and in the region were trying to change the situation inside Afghanistan or continue to educate girls or continue to advocate for Afghanistan in that view as well. And before that, but also, there are some things that are new and different about them, and the sense that they don't directly come from that, from that sort of an industry that was formed around women's rights in Afghanistan. And the past 20 years of international intervention, and they are not, they are not the activists that were that were really, that had really learned and adapted on how to speak to these how to navigate institutions like the un and speak to a Western audience. This is not that group of activists, this is very different. It's a very different group of activists. They are the product of the constitution and the legal framework that we had that created opportunities for a woman like Paris saw to become an athlete. For instance, they expanded access to education, the fact that we had free media in Afghanistan, relatively free media in Afghanistan, and that led to social and cultural transformation where women's aspirations for their lives changed across from women were aspiring for life that were different from their mothers, they weren't all aspiring to become educated or run for parliament or become pilots, but they wanted more. And they felt like they were on this trajectory to getting more to having more rights, and suddenly this break with the break and with the collapse came this, then this desire. And it didn't change the desire and people felt like they have lost a tragic trajectory that they were on. And so they are, they're trying to get in some ways trying hoping that their activism will bring attention to Afghanistan and and somehow create more space for them, even, even if they can have some some of them for some of them. It's just about having their jobs back for others. It's about the schools reopening for others. And to participate in politics, they still have the ambition to be part of the, you know, part of the governments and lead. So they have different aspirations and they have different reasons to participate in these seed protests or join other activities, but they are all they all want more and they are all their demands for more as being met for with extreme brutality. These collectives are still new, they are taking shape and they're adapting as they move forward with a view to expansion. What has been impressive for me is to see them do so much with very limited resources to see them adapt their strategies and like of Taliban's intimidation and do so very quickly and creatively to see them develop the demands as they move forward. And to hear their thoughtful and increased reflection on the limits of external pressure and the limits of international communities interventions. I do not want to romanticize the civic resistance against the Taliban. It certainly divides fragmentation and still a very limited capacity to mobilize, but I believe if there is a force worth paying attention to, and this, in this very difficult situation in Afghanistan. It's the small but mighty groups of women who are fighting Taliban's gender apartheid on the front line with great risk. I want to also acknowledge that women, Afghan women in diaspora in the past, in the past 20 months have been the most vocal voices on Afghanistan advocating at every level and with the UN bodies with policymakers. You know, some of them started doing this work when they were their own futures were very uncertain they had family members inside the country that were facing risks and intimidation. So there is also a struggle outside and I think at this moment, there is thinking and reflection going on in the diaspora community as well about how to responsibly stand and solidarity with our sisters inside the country how to better support their work, and make sure that their voices are amplified. And that that is a challenge that's something that we have to figure out. And there is no, as I speak to you, and every waking hour I am. I'm crashed, because there's no immediate lights ahead of us. Another school year starts in two days, and Afghan girls won't be returning to school. It's a secondary level. But I think when you're in this very desperate and hopeless situation you you hang on to what you can, and for me that has been the activism that's going on inside the country so robustly with very little resource very little attention, and despite all the brutality. So in there. Thank you. We're going to open the floor to questions now, and I will take them in batches of three or four. So anyone who do we have a microphone by the way. Yes, we do have a roving microphone so please wait for the microphone sweet. And we also have a remote audience as well. Hi, what exactly is the Taliban's problem with women. And what do they adequate their own relatives, their daughters, or they sent to do her educated there. We have some. Thank you for really interesting talk show. You may not know the answer to this, because you very coherently said that these women don't they have a coalition in Afghanistan but they don't have a coherent political strategy. Many activists in the West are now saying actually the active intervention would be to cut all government aid because so much of it stolen by the Taliban, make it harder for them to govern. I wonder what these women's views are on that given how much harder life would be if that happened. We'll take these three. I remember when the Taliban went power last time around that they were not a, they were quite hybrid bunch of they were very different from one part of the country to another, and some are more tolerant than others. And this meant that it was possible for those in power the local level. I'm not the tribal elders mainly to negotiate with the Taliban based largely on pleasure from families. What I'm wondering is, to what extent are women able to have an influence on the attitudes of their husband, fathers and so on. In the UK over many over 100 years, and the attitudes have changed enormously at the family level. I just wonder to what extent that's happening in Afghanistan. Okay, we'll stop here. Thank you. Thank you very much for those very thoughtful questions night. I may not have to answer all of them on on women on Taliban and women and why do why do they hate women so much. I think about that every day. I haven't figured it out. It's very clear that they, and they are by dogmatic understanding of the world and Islam, the safest place that they see for a woman is being at home. So, in conversations with them, they would, some of them try to argue that it's for protecting women that they are depriving women of their basic rights that they're basically burying upon women alive. And their attitudes towards their own family members. I mean, it's advice. I don't have great detailed knowledge of this but with some of them, especially those of them who are based in Doha and some of them who are families in Pakistan. We have information that they have, they have their daughters who are studying even at the university level. They have their own daughters going to schools. But of course it's a very different standard when it comes to women of Afghanistan and girls of Afghanistan. Again, this on their own attitudes towards women in their family is also not uniform from it. I understand that there is a level of diversity in this. And some of them who have more exposure and have lived abroad abroad outside Afghanistan for longer. They are more open to women in their own families. Of course, some of them also have taken public positions. Not not outright disagreeing but kind of signaling that they would want the schools to open as soon as possible and that they understand that this is particularly on women's right to education to some extent on women's right to work. But but then in action, everything has got continued to get worse, progressively, in terms of the position on AIDS. I know that even in diaspora people are divided on how to move forward with the question of humanitarian aid and if it's being misused with the people by the Taliban or if it's, you know, if it's giving them more leverage atc with women inside Afghanistan also there's not a kind of one stance on this view their varied views. I think they are most what agitates them the most from my conversations with them is the fact that that every interaction with Taliban, the way it's being presented in Afghanistan is bringing Taliban more legitimacy to their eyes, even the visits from UN for so high level visits from the UN that happened recently, what the intention to reopen schools girls or reverse the ban on women work working that the way they see that reflecting in Afghan society through Taliban media and through Taliban interactions is sort of bringing more credibility to them so their main demand really is limit interaction with this group it's not changing. The more you sit down with them and take photos with them and kind of entertain them. It's not change our life is getting worse. So this is where I have seen a lot of agitation not so much on the question of it directly but more about non recognition, and there's a very real fear that they will be recognized that these are somehow steps to getting Taliban recognition. There's a lot of fair and I think it's a legitimate fair of Taliban being normalized, because they do of course, Taliban of course would never say that they what they're doing is a repressive policy that they have made up they say that it's completely in line with the Afghan culture it's completely in line with Islam that majority of Afghans support their decisions. The way the Taliban are framing this, Afghan women are really scared inside the country that eventually everyone will get tired and kind of lead themselves to believe that this is the case and that's why they protest as well to say, No, we don't agree with this this is not who we are. And this whole cultural framing you know, who is the authentic Afghan woman of course there's a whole lot of trauma and history behind this because of course, even though these women these women they don't speak English they don't come out of they don't they're not like me for instance I people like me were called an authentic during the peace. So called peace process with the between us and Taliban because when we asked for rights for victims when we asked for inclusion of women. People who are labeled as warmongers you know people who are not the real Afghan woman. You guys are educated you have been to the West DC. Well these women are they authentic are, you know, we are the we are the stop right. As long as a woman is educated so she then that makes her an authentic and some sort of framing. So they're also very aware of that trauma and they really want to emphasize their grassroots connections and, and where they come from to say I am the Afghan woman Taliban don't represent me and please don't normalize them when when I talk to them, their main demand is please don't let the foreigners normalize the Taliban and what they're doing in Afghanistan. And yeah, and in terms of the local level negotiations and, you know, in women's role and that some of the women I talked mainly about women protesters but they are also women who are defined Taliban, but have adapted a strategy of negotiation. So we are the other space woman will try to negotiate because they want to keep their activities running, you know so some women have negotiated running a tailoring class with the Taliban local authority. It's not that it's a tailoring class but it's not a tailoring class right so women come there to talk to each other, sometimes to read books to discuss ideas, or to learn literacy. Young girls come there to to become literate and are follow the school curriculum so there are there are there is a confrontation strategy, strategy that some women have adapted some women collectives have adapted, because they think that would bring more international attention, and that can be helpful. And some have adapted a strategy of negotiation, but what is really scary to me is that the space for negotiation is trending. So, we thought that it would be expanding, but what we have seen in the past 1920 months is that Taliban, as they as they gain more confidence, they are becoming better and being more centralized. I've never really had a very strong centralized state, but these guys are becoming better at being more centralized I'll give the example of my own province. I'm from jails john. And after 15 August 2021 in my province the secondary schools demand open for girls, because that was the local negotiation that kept them open. But now this year they won't be opening. So, instead of getting better, it has gotten worse, because it has they have now that they have centralized they have more confidence to carry through their policies at all level. And there is a lot of talk from because of these, some people who go out there within the Taliban but also some, some Afghans who, you know university teachers, these women protesters others who defy Taliban's roles. There has been a lot of talk from Taliban and increasingly more harsher tone about criticizing the government criticizing people in charge so a while back, but law had a statement where he said, basically you are not allowed to criticize your government. And more recently, Taliban's Minister of higher education said that everyone who criticized the government and anyway using a pen, writing about it or talking about it. They are considered body and watchable cattle. Basically, they are promised we are we are permitted to kill them, which sent a chilling message to everyone of course that you say you know my electricity is not working what's this government doing. They might come and kill you. So they have really gone after the soft, soft power and soft resistance initially, because in the water in my organization we track human rights violations. So the first few months, September, October, November 2021, we saw Taliban were merely focused on former security force members, tracking them down and killing them. And they did this in some provinces more than others but they were doing it across Afghanistan, but then starting December and then January 22 they started going for other groups for anyone who was criticizing them. At this point we know that in the Taliban intelligence there are units in their job is just looking through people's social media pages and going after people who criticize Taliban government on social media. So people have received phone calls or have had visits or in some cases they have been enforced disappearances and you know people have been detained and tortured simply because they have there to resist the Taliban and for the protesters. I mean, initially there was the sense that because they are women protesting for cultural reasons, Taliban would not raise their hand on them or take them into custody and keep them away from their families. But not only women have been held in custody, they have been beaten severely while in custody. They are serious and credible allegations of sexual abuse while in custody of Taliban as well as then the only way they get released is by local elders interfering in negotiating their release. And in that negotiation the local elders have to sign papers saying these women will not protest again and they will not talk about their experience to media and they will not leave Afghanistan, that they will not leave the country. So they are basically a lifetime, it's life and present basically but outside present for for for women so that's the cost that it comes at and it has made these negotiations, the space for these negotiations particularly around women's rights I think is unfortunately shrinking. We have any other questions. Yes. My name is Nazif. I'm a PhD student with sauce. Very impressive lecture is an Afghan I was also observing all the activism of woman on the ground. So one thing that really keeps coming into my mind is a question that we have seen that. OIC has several time attempted to contact Taliban or they made the statement they send delegation to talk to the Taliban members, particularly in terms of girls education. So, in terms of the woman activist in the ground, as you mentioned and also I have also noted that they, beside that they know that how important it is that they have their internal audience but also they want international community to do anything. I have not come across to know that whether they have taught about to contact OIC members or is is a part of like writing a letter or declaration or has the OIC members been active on that regard. I've been listening a lot about for many Afghans that OIC has been very passive in this regard, particularly there was a few events that was taken place in the side event of, of the, of, of, pardon me, exactly the meeting names I forgot in regards to states of women that in these night events. The, the, I was, I listened from one of the Afghan participants that she was in Geneva and she told the other audience that in these events of OIC the issue was like you know Islamic law and the role of women but in all of these events that was none participant or attendee from Afghanistan was such a critical situation like what do you assess this and what is your thought on. Thank you. Thank you. We have at least as many people online as we do in the room and they're queuing the questions so I want to put a few of the questions from the online audience. The goal for online education provided free by overseas universities and keeping Afghan women, women students, learning, continuing while they are still bored from in person education. And how can the international community influence the Taliban's pursuits requiring women, regarding women, when various UN US and European sanctions are seemingly ineffective at changing with Taliban policies. Okay, thank you. Thank you. So I think that your question and the last question about what can the international community do are connected so I'll respond to the online education question then come to your question. So there's also a debate about online education, of course, because, again, one fair is that it's important to provide online education I really admire and respect the work of activists who continue to do so outside of Afghanistan. There are other ways also in addition to online. For instance, in her out there is a private TV channel that for several hours a day broadcast school curriculum. So there's like this teacher teaching school curriculum on TV. And this is one way that they want to make sure that the girls have access to education sitting in their homes, and all these efforts are really appreciated by by people who want to continue their education. But there is also this concern that if we focus so much on online education, are we, it shouldn't take basically as we are trying to provide online education opportunities for women we should remember that there are so many barriers to access to online education there is electricity, there is internet. It just it's a very very small group of people that can actually use online education. Many families across Afghanistan don't have electricity. If they have electricity they don't have internet they don't have smartphones if they have smartphones. Those are not in the hands of the girls to study to pursue their education so there are many barriers, and our focus, while more online education opportunities are very useful, they might be useful for Afghan diaspora for Afghan refugees in Pakistan and Iran for instance, and India. There are Afghan women who are studying there. There is a limit to how far that can go and our focus should be on reopening schools and new planning universities for all Afghan women and girls across Afghanistan. So both things should go at the same time and it shouldn't take away our advocacy and our efforts. That said, I think I, I personally would like to see more free courses, absolutely. More scholarships, I mean Oxford, the university that I am affiliated to is doing nothing at the undergraduate level. They have they have one or two scholarships at the graduate level but I know capable, very capable and committed Afghan women inside the country as well as in the region and Pakistan and Iran and India who want to pursue, you know, their BA their bachelor's degrees and they they don't they don't have a way to come to this country for instance to study so more scholarships I think one way to help out one woman right now. It just I'm amazed that very rich in a very rich university like Oxford for instance is not doing more and certainly other universities can also do more to provide scholarships but also to make courses available online. People will learn the skills. It's a window. It's of course, probably accessible to a little bigger group of people but of course people also want their work their studies to be recognized. They want to have degrees, you know, so, so any any way that more opportunities could be available for Afghan women is always welcome more needs to be done. In the meantime, always knowing in the back of our mind that, you know, Taliban might shut down access to internet that access that exists is also very, very limited. And it's not widespread. So there are a lot of barriers already. In terms of OIC and then I think related to that is what can the international community do. You raise a very good point. I mean, OIC is the organization of Islamic countries, and there is understandably a lot of expectation from the Afghan woman for this body to do more. There have been some statements there has been a visit by OIC to Kabul, but it hasn't. I mean, I think generally the leaders of the Islamic world are failing Afghan women. And that's the sense that some of the women activists that I talked to also share is, but there's not enough pressure. There's a lot of words, but, you know, countries that we have a lot of, Afghanistan has a lot of trades with, for instance, in our region. They are not using any of the leverage that they have or they're not using it enough to push for these issues. When you press some of them, they say, oh, you know, we have a policy of non-interference. Women's education is important, but we don't want to interfere in these, you know, in Afghanistan's domestic affairs. It's outrageous. And it's going to catch up with them because I do strongly believe that every day that every day is a loss for Afghan women and girls, but also every day that Afghan women and girls remain out of school, I think increases the risk of radicalization, full radicalization of Afghan society. And people in the region will be impacted by that. But that's not their understanding of the situation. And in terms of their relationship with the protesters, generally, diplomats and, you know, UN, even Unama, UN, UN's assistance mission in Afghanistan and its human rights mandate. All of these people try to stay away from Afghan protesters. And there are excuses that we don't want to put them at risk. But I think the fact is that they don't want to, in a way, they don't want to recognize them as a legitimate force, but they are a legitimate force. They are the most legitimate force right now standing against the Taliban, risking their lives. But it's really disappointing that they wouldn't meet, often most of these people wouldn't meet these women. They wouldn't attend them, they wouldn't invite them to meetings or in any way try to actively listen to them and to their demands. And part of it may be that women, these women don't know how to navigate, but I think there should be active outreach from diplomats and Kabul, the few that remain and as well as the UN. But there is actively active dismissal, trying to look the other way and pretend that these women don't exist and are not real and are not out there risking their lives every day. And that's, it's very strange to me because it shows how much of all of this is politicized because of course we remember and before collapse of Kabul, you know, all of these diplomats and embassies will try to go out of their way to speak to women in different provinces. To hear women activists demands etc. And sometimes justify their own pressure on the government, kind of referencing the work of women or activism of women or demands of women. But right now they're completely looking the other way, which is really heartbreaking and difficult to watch in terms of what can the world do apart from sanctions. You know, there's already a lot of pressure being exerted on the Taliban. I mean, it's, it's difficult because I think that when you want to when you ask what, what can the world what can international community do, you have this assumption that there is some political well to do something. I genuinely believe that, at least in the US and I think also in many European countries, there is not much political well to do something about Afghanistan. And it's really hard to say this and say this out loud but I do think the Biden administration, for instance, they really want Afghanistan to be forgotten. The best scenario for them is Afghanistan being out of use. Afghanistan is a failure, an embarrassing failure that they do not want to think about. They don't want to remember. They just wanted out of the news. They want to send some money for humanitarian aid and be done with it and don't think about it again. And that is the reality that activists have to face every day in our advocacy because we are talking with people who don't have a lot of power in their administrations. They don't have a lot of, you know, they have a title. They don't have a lot of power. They're not being heard. They don't have a lot of resources. They are given a very strict counter-terrorism priority, less of priorities to work with. Human rights is nowhere there, despite what they say publicly. So when we talk to them, when we ask them for things, they can't do much. They don't have the resources. They don't have the support. And there is no political well and interest in those countries. And so I think Afghanistan's crisis for many people is already forgotten. But the women, the girls who can't go to school every day, they have no way of forgetting about that, right? So I think, you know, if there is political well, there are things that can be done. For instance, some Taliban leaders have businesses, investments in Qatar and Pakistan. The U.S., for instance, has close relationships with these countries. But I think there isn't such political well to push harder. And when we ask to push harder, they say, oh, it will backfire. It will make things worse. How much worse can it get for women? How much worse can it get? You are not allowed to go to school. You know, they live with us every day. So, yeah. So it's, if there is political well, I think there are things to do to hold Taliban to account. I mean, we were talking about the International Criminal Court the other day. There's an arrest warrant out for Putin. Great. You know, when the investigation on Afghanistan started, 2007, you know, who is a member through a statue of Afghanistan, who is not a member through a statue, Russia, also Ukraine. No arrest warrants have been issued in the case of Afghanistan. So I think that's the kind of reality when we talk about international community. Often the question is which international community and where is the political well and the international community. Yes, in the back room. Thank you. Sorry. I kind of goes back to the first question on aid and just to say that there is even more of a struggle now in Afghanistan to deliver aid because so many NGOs are restricted and they don't have access to female staff and so they can no longer provide aid to women and girls. And I was just wondering, do you think that there is a role for I am for international NGOs and national NGOs to support women and girls in Afghanistan and make spaces for the kind of groups that you were talking about today, given all the restrictions that add the scrutiny that is being placed on those NGOs at the moment. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. As you said, delivery of it. Sorry, just a couple more questions from the online primary. structural violence against women and girls is nothing new. There has been a war for 40 plus years the Taliban have brought it to an end how do women women and their families relate to the fact that the Taliban have brought an end to the war that greatly restricted their lives. And then a question about sport here. Sports isolation played a part in bringing down apartheid. Prior to the turn of the Taliban, Afghanistan started to make a name in international sport, particularly cricket. Australia recently canceled the series against the men's team, because women were being banned from playing sport maybe one of the less important issues. But should the sports community now exclude the outcome teams, or is it better to keep the players in the country in the public eye, as our gaze focuses elsewhere. Controversial question. Thank you. Thank you. So on the question of it you're absolutely right that the work of it. This is not something that we directly monitor in our work, but we know, even by anecdotal kind of experience being shared with us that it's being greatly affected by the recent bands in a country like Afghanistan if women are not living aid and there are many women who are headed households due to the long conflict. Women would simply not come out and it's harder for them to access humanitarian aid. It's a disservice. I mean, it's so brutal. It's a decision to ban women from working for injuries in the middle of a very harsh winter in a country where millions are going starving. It's added to the misery of Afghans, women, men, children across the country. And the response to it, I mean, some organizations, some of you have followed this, some organizations decided to suspend their operations because they said practically we can't carry out our operations without 40% of our staff who are female. What are we supposed to do that? And what's next step? Are you going to come and tell us the place our female staff with me? I mean, we are, we are all the stuff. And there has been a lot of commentary also on the response that the fact that there wasn't a cohesive response because some organizations thought that their life saving work has to go on no matter what so they continue to adapt and continue their work. And some organizations felt like they can't as a matter of principle, but also practicality. I will not go into all of that discussion, but I think in terms of what international NGOs can do is to really be better allies for Afghan in Jews because one group of organizations that were affected by the span were of course Afghan in Jews that were women led or had women working for them. And these in Jews don't have the same access to Taliban officials as international in Jews too. And they are not in the rooms, often they are not in the rooms where these discussions happen. Of course, Akbar is a kind of this umbrella that brings together organizations, international Afghan organizations and the humanitarian space. But, but some of them are not in the same rooms and they don't have the same leverage. They don't have big operations. They are not, you know, they are not that cross they are not in our city. They are they're small organizations that often operated one or two provinces, but they're also being impacted by the ban. So I think my, my, my hope my wish my aspiration my recommendation is that they need to be protected. They need to be supported and kind of trying to minimize the impact of the work that the ban on them for the donors. This means that they continue to pay these organizations. They continue support these organizations so that they can keep their female staff on a payroll, even if they can't go out there and carry out their duties right now because of the ban. And for the international organization, this means that they continue to consult their upon pairs and make sure that the advocacy that's being done is are the negotiations that are being done because they're also conducting negotiations for tall with Taliban in some places they have gotten an ongoing assumptions for some sectors that these negotiations include the voices and demands of Afghan organizations as well because they have less access at the national level to government authorities and they have less leverage to to negotiate for resuming their work in any shape or form. In terms of in the war and how that's impacting our ones have one main and women of course, and questions of structural violence. Yes, Afghanistan has been in war for a very long time and everyone, all of us were really looking forward to an end to our, and I think one woman were more realistic that there might be compromises. There were discussions and, and, and, and women's groups among women's issues. We caught based on Taliban's promises and doha and statements, people were thinking, okay, you know, our workplace might be segregated. But maybe that's a price that I'll pay for an end to our my workplace will be segregated but I'll continue to be able to work. And people were talking about these things. Am I really am I not really how do I feel about this? What does this mean for women's movement? What does it mean for the gains that we have made? And I think we all knew and fared that Taliban have not changed, but we were constantly being told by everyone, you know, by the international community by the Taliban themselves, that they have changed. And now there will be this era of this end to violence, and, but the end to violence, there will be a return to normalization that goes will go to school women will continue to work there might be some limitations but it will not be a full end for women in society. So for me, the war hasn't ended. It's a war against women in Afghanistan right now. The war hasn't ended for women, because they are told that they cannot exist. It's not, it's not something small, you know, they can't go to school. It's as basic as that every day war was taking lives away from us every day. Imagine the country five years, six years, ten years from now, where you don't have new female nurses, new female doctors. That's going to cost them lives. That's costing lives right now the fact that girls are not being educated that women are not working. It's cost to our economy is causing lives. If people were dying in violence now people are dying of hunger. So how has the war ended. Yes, the active violence has stopped, but the seeds of other conflicts unfortunately are being planted if the situation continues because today I'm here talking about the women's rights and the impact of restrictions on women how women are resisting the Taliban but but my work the work that we do in our organization we are looking at enforced disappearances we are looking at collective punishment we are looking at illegal detention we are looking at torture we are looking at all these things the Taliban are doing these acts of sexual acts of violence the Taliban are committing against women against minorities against anyone who dares to defy them. And how this ends for Afghanistan that's what I worry about every day. And again, I think the biggest thing for Afghanistan is to break the cycle of conflict, but we cannot break the cycle of conflict by erasing women from the public space we're prolonging the conflict that's what I believe. Because of sports and the question supports this became very controversial because when I found cricket cricket team, which I'm a fan of was was banned from participating in competition in Australia and account of Taliban's policies there were there was a range of responses to that I can only share my not representing anyone I can only share my personal opinion. This is the right step for Australia, and I thought this shouldn't be. I think the situation of one stone should not be normalized. You know, every few days weeks we need to remind that that this is not a normal situation. This is not okay. Because if we go with business as usual, then slowly it will become normal. And so for me, any steps that we can take to remind everyone about the gravity of the situation and the need to do something about it. I think, you know, it's important, and it sends a message to women and girls in Afghanistan that you are not being held hostage and being collectively punished for your gender while the world is just looking away. Okay. Well, if I will indulge us will take a final round of questions. Yes. Thank you very much for a fascinating talk. I was just going, I wanted to ask about the, what extent women activists from Afghanistan are also forging links with activists women's movements in neighboring regions because we've heard a lot about women in the West but I was wondering in Pakistan or in Iran or in Central Asia and the ways in which those connections could be used to influence or exert pressure upon regional governments. Thank you. One of the things that is really concerning me personally is, okay, so let's say there is a good scenario in which schools open, but no one is talking about what is taught at schools, because we have talent and power. And, you know, one of, like, if you look at the ministers, I think Minister of Education, Minister of Higher Education are among the most ideologized ministers in the Taliban right. So, don't you think that the school will be used as institutions to indoctrinate, like mass indoctrination across the country. Teachers who are being vetted by the Taliban, who are being hired by the Taliban to just preach whatever the Taliban believe about the society about human rights about whatever. One last question. Is there any prospect of relying on Islamic teaching and experience from other countries to argue that the Taliban policy on women is against Islam. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. In terms of regional questions connections. I think not all of us, but most of us were very western, this includes me we were very western focused in the past 20 years, over 20 years in Afghanistan because we were, you know, well, the whole country was funded by and by the national budget was funded internationally but also many of our counterparts were westerns and we felt like we have a western audience and that was really one of the flaws I think one of the serious flaws and the work that we did that we didn't pay as much attention and we didn't spend as much time and resources and cultivating regional relationships. Some of us did I think some of the older activists who had a longer history of engaging on women's rights did but most of us didn't. And now, for people for activists inside of Hong Kong it's very difficult because of language because they can't travel etc. For that I think a lot of us are now starting to look into that because finally people are settled or they have their papers where they can travel etc because they were dealing with a lot of these logistics of being at a few G now which is the reality for most of us. So, but I, it's good to see that there's more recognition of the fact that we need to work with actors in the region, both diplomats and governments but also women's rights groups civil society, you know, different groups that exist in the region that are that have a shared vision and goal and kind of start to establish but I would say it's not it's a very in a very early stages from what I understand right now but that recognition has has happened and diaspora has that's one of the ways that I think this in Afghanistan is sort of also building that connection and helping their messages being heard. In terms of education, yes, I worry every day about indoctrination, you know, in my province, many new madrasas have have opened their doors and the Madrasas Taliban took over. And because people are desperately poor, they are sending their children to these madrasas that's the only education available for them sometimes they provide some, the madrasas provide some support to families in terms of food assistance, etc. And yes, I believe that Taliban have a vision for for indoctrination and radicalization of our own society. I think some Taliban might be thinking, you know, some of they know that some of their policies are extremely difficult right now, and they want to make them popular and a fierce from now. You know, they want did I don't think they want to some of them might think, you know, in five years 10 years of this last, and if we have to go for election just as a show you know, we be supported by people, and they are very intentionally working attract the calizing iPhone society so yes to all of those questions and why, why is it fierce that you have but I think focusing on deepening of school it's about it's not just about schools it's about the fundamental right to education that girls have a right to formal education. It's the state's duty to provide formal education to girls as well as boys that it has to be open the girls deserve to be educated, as much as the boys deserve to be educated the same resources. And of course questions of curriculum I know that even by soon after August 21, when there was the discussions of support to education in Afghanistan by some donors. There were discussions around curriculum and kind of conditionality around the fact that the curriculum should remain unchanged. So, all of that is also. Unfortunately, all those discussions are now muse because the schools are closed, but it is something that I think policymakers are thinking about activists are thinking about actively, and this whole focus on schools girls school doesn't mean once the girls schools are open to girls all as well and you know we can all go and take a break and drink tea. It's really about the fact that it's a fundamental human rights, recognized in all Islamic countries. All countries on this planet except Afghanistan and reversing that injustice. In terms of Islamic teaching and principles. You know, even during the peace process sometimes people told us, you know, if you if you adapt a more religious tone to your. I was leading that once on independent human rights commission at the time. If you adapt a more religious tone to your statements atc wanted to make your relationship with Solomon easier. And we had a lot of internal we didn't, we didn't deal like we didn't dismiss this lightly we had a lot of internal conversations. But as Afghans, I think we know that Solomon are really not about representing Islam as most Afghans understand it. They don't. It's not because it's not because their audience hasn't argued with them from an Islamic perspective that they are doing the things that they are doing. There's of course always value I think it's important to continue to the dialogue it's it's very important that religious scholars inside of one stone are calling for the opening of schools I think there should be more of that I think there should be stronger alliances between the religious community the private sector and the activists because I don't think the activists on their own can do anything really we need we need the private sector to stand with us we need the religious community to stand with us. But it's also very important that. They are not banning girls from school because they don't know they don't know this is wrong in Islam, they know what Islam says about education, they know that full well. It's not because it's not about that and when you talk to all about Islam and you know culture and all of these things. You just find a way of justifying their own policies I mean, they're aware they're being told daily that no Islamic country, and or the gun and others in the Islamic world have safe and very harsh terms that tall ones policies are completely an Islamic when it comes to Miss education and work, and they still continue operating on that basis. On that note, I'm going to propose that we move from the formal to the informal part of the evening and adjourn for a reception in the foyer. But before I do that, I want you to join me in thanking. What was really an extraordinary riveting and humbling and sobering and unflinching account. That was at the same time. A testimony to the extraordinary resilience and ingenuity and indomitability and smooth steadfastness to use the Palestinian term of our family. Thank you so much.