 Then move on to a question that have got 33 hits and going back to the Focus on this sustainable company, which this wave you are is Denmark a good setting for being a sustainable company Is this like the best place to be I guess we would like to start yes Nils I think it is a good place for sustainable company I think we have so we have issues society-wise on being a good place to run a company all together But I think especially on sustainability. I do think we haven't about it Let me just give an example For instance if the fact that Denmark ever since the beginning of the 70s when we had the oil crisis And none of you can remember that but when I was a kid we could not drive on motorways on Sundays Imagine in a free society. We're not allowed to drive on motorways on Sundays now that actually kick-start something that made politicians back Then I think actually pretty cleverly look way ahead. That's when we started district heating in Denmark We got really a world leading position. It created companies like Dan first like lobster like others So so today when when China looks at how they get their energy efficiency up They call it energy intensity. They look for world-class solutions. Guess where they go They go to Copenhagen to Orhus and to Sonowal Because that's where the best technology in the world is and And we asked them why they come they said that's because you have the best thing if that would change to Germany Then be sure we would go to Germany So we actually because of this connection between a society that does value sustainable solutions that does look forward and are willing To invest something in demonstration it allows for companies to build scale and competence that we can now export So I would clearly say and that's that's much more examples I think that the Danish attitude here on setting high standards of wanting to do that. I think helps Now there would be a lot of things about the general conditions of running a business that I could wish would be a lot better And that actually counts the other way But I read the question here specifically saying in terms of sustainability. Is this a good country to be in? Steve Only one thing to add to what Nils was saying and that is it's also a good place to recruit young people who has an interest who have an interest in Sustainability it's kind of permanent permeates our society So those kind of ideas are readily pursued by the scientists we have in our laboratory Laboratories they are tuned in to this kind of thinking and that adds to all the good things that Nils was Yeah, yeah, I agree in that we are well-known more or less all over the world for being a sustainable Country and it is deep rooted into to our culture as Nils also were saying What what wonders me a little bit is that even in Denmark and to my best knowledge Nowhere in the world we still have still do not have an education in sustainable economy But well who knows maybe one day it will come Yeah, that's a good point and Maybe that's something that we could actually learn from where and Educational institutions like that exist. I personally don't know but I'm sure it exists So what could Denmark learn from other countries or companies because of course we are good, but we could be better. I guess Nils Yeah, so now we are getting close to something. I think it's really interesting here And it may be difficult for me now to stay on the topic of sustainability because I think where we need to learn Is that we don't have to look that far away? We could look across the earth zone or we could look south of the of the border We need to make sure that while we do all these good things while we have a lot of competency While we are probably ahead in the way we think about sustainability It is not it cannot happen in a world where we can forget everything about Productivity and cost and all those kind of things and we are drifting and we have been drifting too far out there And I think the biggest risk on us being successful in this area is not Our ability to generate ideas or do things or recruit people that want to work in this business and has it's competent It's actually that the general conditions for running business has changed pretty dramatically over the last 10 years And I would say and I think we were together in China The Prime Minister was traveling out there We had an evening where we had a stand-in buffet and we had a lot of Chinese investors there people in China with a lot of money and a wish to do business and of course we would like to say okay come to Denmark and bring your investments to Denmark now What do you think they look at? I mean it's nice if they can tap into some of the competences that we have built But it's more important probably for their investment that they can also make a good business out of that The basic conditions are not very much different from what they could do if they go to Hamburg or they go to Malmö That's why I think we have the biggest issue right now Jan Well just to add what what Nils said it is certainly right and within the last 40 years two things very important has happened in the world first the container industry was developed which means that we can Move physical products extremely fast Extremely cheap all over the world which means that we are in competition with everybody around the world Second thing will be the internet. What are the internet doing? Well, the internet is very fast very cheap moving Brain capacity wherever in the world. You're sitting on a computer these things are available all over So also when it comes to brain work, we are in competition with everybody So it is extremely important that we are staying competitive and for the time being Denmark is unfortunately in that perspective not very competitive Just to add to this at the same time as we have these problems in Denmark many other countries around the world are kind of scrambling to Get on the sustainability Track if you look at China China has very kind of solid goals for reducing their energy intensity and With the way China is run. I'm absolutely certain that they will actually achieve those Energy intensity with auction targets if you look at Brazil Brazil has embraced the whole idea of using renewable input material to create fuel and a future chemical industry In a very clever and and very large scale manner. So other people are moving in a big way while we are I think We have the problems that that Nils and Jörn were alluding to we also have a tendency to not calculate but Jump to what I call political correct solutions rather than do the background life cycle assessments For the solutions that are proposed the Chinese and the Brazilians don't do the same mistakes And on those answers The next questions is a very good follow-up. Let me just get it up on the screen This one Because oh no, that was the one we got this is very very high-tech What could where did it go to? It was a very oh, maybe I just Pushed answered even though it was not answered So I have to really recall the question in my own mind The question was so how do you sell sustainable products in emerging market countries where sustainability is not such an hot issue But maybe that's a small prejudice in that because actually they are involved in this Yeah, yeah well seen from our perspective we have to admit that it is for us very difficult because In these countries very often it is the individual house owner who are deciding what kind of windows they want to put in and They don't care so much many of these countries do not have very high prices of energy and so on and and that We can really feel there's a significant difference in the products We are selling in in certain countries compared to others in that respect Steve I think the basic answer is that we are selling based on exactly the same parameters as we are in all the other countries It has to be cheaper and it has to be better and Compared to their local circumstances I'd like if I made just to add I think an anecdote to this we we are working very closely with the textile industry the textile industry The the mills not the the people that are suing the stuff But the mills is among the most polluting industries in the world And the way we have solved our pollution industry problems here in Europe and the United States is that we Move that industry to China now the Chinese are starting to implement the the environmental regulations that they Actually decided on five years ago, but now they're starting to implement it. So the textile industry is moving to Bangladesh And next up as I understand it is Africa Africa is the only place in the world Bangladesh and Africa seem to be the only places in the world left where you are allowed to pollute so One of the things we can do in those countries and what we do do is to work closely with the government and the industry to develop alternatives, which we think we can that are Significantly reducing the pollution from these industries so that they can allow them to stay in the country and Maintain the jobs and maintain the value generation in those countries, but if we fail We didn't make it in Europe We are a little late for China. We might make it for Bangladesh before it goes to Africa All right, and it's selling sustainable products in emerging markets I think I would just like to tell you about one example and that's in the northern part of China There's a city with three and a half million people where the way they do heating Of course, there's only heating a certain part of the year So the comfort in those apartments or houses are not that nice But when there is heating it's done by a lot of small boilers placed around each of them fired with coal or with brown coal It means that the air is so polluted that you can actually it's always foggy When you're there now we made one project that took Heat that was wasted on a steel factory in the same city Close those boilers and use the heat from the from the steel company That gives heat now to one and a half million people that's Copenhagen In a way that they have heat all year round much more comfort They can actually control the heat the cost of the heating the zero the project pays back to the steel company to the city and To the people who gets cheaper energy in less than two years and The air gets cleaner Now give me one good example why they wouldn't do that And then remember there's like 200 cities in China of the same size that could be interested in doing the same thing So I think I think to the question there is ample opportunity of selling green technology in How was that the project financed by the city by the city? That's another area we haven't talked about but that may be something we could do better than that's fine right So let's dig into the toolbox and be very concrete also about you being here in this room because now you Have asked the question what should students here from bbs learn about sustainability the most important thing to know about sustainability when leaving the room Yes, who will start That's a tough one thinking thinking thinking hmm It can be more than one thing maybe three things max right we'll go first No, all right steen you always have an answer for everything so you will have an answer for this one as well Well, I think I just have to start talking Yeah, well anyway, I I think the first Thing you should take away is that it's serious. It's real that it's something that you will have to somehow address when you go ahead because It will influence your life and that of your children when you get some and and in very profound ways unless we find good solutions to it so and and well just to When I talk about when I'm out talking about technology We very often meet technology people that Will talk about new social media and other very interesting stuff and I this is fantastic and this is good We need answers to very basic questions also It's not enough with a new social network Thank you state and now the other two have their questions and not young news actually got the raise the hand first so Yeah Now you were laughing because we were all standing here thinking about it and in my way, I think I Think the short answer is nothing. I don't think you need to have a lot of courses into Specifics about sustainability. I think that's a business opportunity along a lot of other stuff So I would hope you learn a lot about identifying opportunities and actually Understanding how to make business plans around that because it's for me. It's nothing else than that So if there was one thing I would say then instead of nothing because that's probably not the right answer But then it's then it's at least to understand some of the fundamentals around. Why is it? We would like to go there. So I would hope That you could be trained in understanding at least the impact of co2 on society if we do nothing at least some of this Society costs to not doing anything the relationship for sale against non-for sale view and and so so to think about the issue of sustainability if that's there then I'm sure the rest of it is actually down to doing business It's just a business focus trying to take advantage of something and I think that goes back to all your fundamental Courses so I would not think this is something special and and I would not be looking for a sustainability engineer or a Sustainability economist. I think that's that's not the way to just just go for the profit and the rest will follow And now Jan, please Yeah, it's difficult to add more but but I also think that that a general attitude and knowledge About the issue is important because it will be very very different from company to company. What kind of specific? Knowledge you would have so Yeah Moving from the toolbox From you guys to the toolbox of governments It's always easy just to ask for legislative regulations to help one get started But what legislative action is necessary to make it easier for companies to assume a sustainable profile? Yes Nils, you want to go first? I think the short answer is predictability. We need regulation that actually goes a little further than next year's Financial budget for the for the government because we are actually as companies making pretty heavy investments with paybacks That actually go into the future so not knowing under which conditions We need to operate the day the new product or the new solutions coming out makes it very difficult It basically means that the risk on that investment goes up And you all know that if the risk goes up then we have to discount at a higher factor Then the NPV of the investment goes down and then the risk that we will not make the investment is higher So it's very very important that predictability is there and as Dean was saying I fully agree I think there is a government role in making sure that new technologies get Into volume and get into a situation where they can survive on their own And I'll give you an example of of solar in Germany a big success in Germany of actually bringing solar into the To the society, but it's been like over time They had one regulation and then suddenly they changed for another one and the really good one is when they start saying in six months We will change the regulation Because then then I one or two things happen if they change for the better than nobody's buying for six months And then they buy a lot just after if they change for the worse Then everybody buys in those six months and nothing happens after that now try to run a business under those circumstances We go straight from not being able to deliver to lose our all our money on freight and flying things around to not making money Because we're not selling anything so they're really not helping businesses if what they are trying is to launch new things and help Giving birth to new technologies, then it needs to be predictable over time what they do So we would like high standards. We would like predictable legislation Yeah Exactly as news was saying the the predictability is extremely important on top of that Within our industry that the building codes around in the different countries that the authorities will stretch the the industry but not too much because then you come into stupid situations if you certainly have to Do enormous change in a very short time that is seen from the society point of view ridiculous because you put too much Resources into it so a good cooperation with the authorities about what is possible at what time and then stick to that Steve would you like to add something well? Maybe just by explaining how predictability created the bioethanol industry in the United States this Regulation were in place for ten years in those ten years initially there were Subsidies and it was clear from the start that these subsidies will be phased out would be phased out in ten years Now the US had created that industry it produces ten percent of the US gasoline five percent of the world's gasoline then It has created six hundred thousand jobs in rural America and and it has All of that has happened because it was predictable for ten years. What's gone? What would happen now? this predictability is Is Is gone from the US political scene because of other things that I will take a half an hour to explain but That means that essentially the deployment of a second generation cellulose in the US has stopped And this is something that happens in Brazil China and parts of Europe instead So as you can see basically the next question with 22 votes actually have been answered I guess by the panel So I will move down to to this one That also is a very important issue. I guess to talk about Also from a Danish Perspective do you see emerging market competitors and as competitors on the sustainable agenda as well? Often it seems that people assume that the West has the monopoly unsustainable solutions Yeah, definitely at least in our industry all over the world. Everybody's running after that I mean very few years ago Danish political people thought that well, we should just run the dream green Agenda and then we will survive in a good way forget about it. Everybody's on that. I think I already answered China Brazil lots of other developing countries India. They are all on that agenda and Creating great companies that Of course make good business in in this new area How close how close are they to no busines standard? Yeah, I think they are making good progress on wind turbines and a lot of other stuff We are still ahead But and your comfort that it will remain that way. No, of course not. No, we are fighting every day to maintain their position Yes, I'm sure you have the same I can only echo that I believe we're still ahead But I think we're working very very hard on staying ahead because it's it's clear I mean the days when China wanted to be to be the manufacturing side of the world has changed now It's all about technology transfer and very specific about what kind of technology they want to get access to that's the technology That's going to be worth a lot of money in the future and ten years from now There's no doubt in my mind that sustainable solutions will be real important in all parts of the world And who would like to be able to develop those? Everybody would and especially the Chinese so so I would fully agree on that And then right here I can see great because I was just about to say now you're getting close to the end So now raise your hands if you have questions and we have run here on row three Thanks, it was actually a follow-up question to the previous question About regulation So if you go back and try to remember when you decided to switch to a sustainable business paradigm Was it would you say that? Legislation pushed you to do it or was it other things that made you take the strategic decision? For us it was not legislation this was I think a very much a reflection of the fact that that the product and the opportunities for with our technology kind of presents the sustainability agenda to you so It was more like a reflection of In the future Our customers would need to make sure that they produced with less raw material input with less energy at the end of the day, they would need to sustainable input rather than than oil and And they would not be allowed to continue to pollute as much as they did in the past and and so all the projects that we embarked on were projects where we kind of anticipated that These pressures would be put on Companies not because regulations of in our case not because regulations were put in place when we started There's a few young well that decision I think in our company was taken way before I I joined we have always had An attitude of taking care of the resources in those days Of course primarily due to money not to use more material and so on than absolutely necessary It has turned out that that we have been extremely much more aggressive concerning Working with the authorities on this issue because at a certain time Those making the billing codes around in the world world has simply a wrong perception about How should windows be to minimize the yearly energy consumption in the houses so we have done a lot of work Teaching that together with a number of other Companies so so it has been an ongoing development Yeah, I would I would say the same I think I can point to two situations where legislation helped move things forward a lot faster, but typically not I think the if legislation needs to work It's either a big country or it's like EU like very specific legislation in Denmark doesn't really have much because the country is Too small so no big company can develop the totally new product line just to sell it in Denmark in these kind of you need more Volume than that. So so I often tell ministers It's much more important that we go to Brussels and we try to push up the standards for the entire EU For us to operate then we have a country like Denmark that is totally out of whack on the on what we're doing But so I think a little bit like yarn is saying I think Danfors was onto this before I was born And it was not because some some legislative force made something We have often actually been ahead of that we have we have we have made the products that would allow Authorities to be Strict on legislation because now they knew there was a solution out there And one good example is for instance in the US where 20% of all electricity goes into running air conditioning systems We had solutions that could make those much more efficient And actually the last thing George Bush did as president was he basically Regulated that and increased the level of energy efficiency air conditioning systems needed as a minimum So that really worked that brought a lot of products in play But it was not like he did that and then we went back and said gosh we need to make those products We had those products So when they made that it actually just moved some of the business over to those products So they influence but they don't drive. I don't believe I agree with my colleagues And then we're getting closer to the end as a question up there. There's no now that now you're getting out there Okay, but the time is closing and we definitely need the answer to this last questions before we end the session But let's have a question there. Please stand up Hello, I'm from China. So my question is about how do you face the Challenges from Chinese local competitors who enjoy the stronger local government relationship have with the lower Production cost and also they have the excess is a world-class tenant. Thank you young Well, our story in China is is very special We moved out there in 84 and nobody has seen Windows built into the slope roof and they claimed that was impossible And it took us around 10 years to convince them that that was possible without leaking And you have to know that the worst thing which can happen to a building is water coming in because it will destroy The construction over the years of the building So after 10 years we started to have a decent business in China And then it said boom and we had 40 local competitors who made windows Which on a distance for the untrained eyes you couldn't see the difference and They started to sell that many times at prices where we couldn't hardly buy the raw materials for the products And they sold it and they build it in But they couldn't keep the water out So that was very very tough for us because then the Chinese population came back and said there you see it can't be done so we have had a very tough time in In China in that respect and we are still struggling quite a bit with these things So China has been very special for us and and and also when we when you go into the sustainability part of that We have unfortunately seen that the local competitors They are simply unfair in the way. They are marketing their products concerning how they are performing and that's That's also a big issue for us It's a different territory Nils. I'm sure you have Chinese experiences I will say I think I'll start out saying that that I hear below the question basically an assumption that We are sitting somewhere in Denmark at Danish cost trying to compete in China. That's long gone When we're in China, we develop products for China in China We produce them in manufacturing facilities that are just as efficient and as cost effective as the Chinese companies We are competing with we have a Chinese sales organization that has a reach Comparable or bigger to many of the Chinese companies. We're competing with so we are we're actually there and we are competing head-to-head and we're not We're not from that point of view. We're not scared We are in the middle of it and we fight very hard and there's very clever Chinese competitors as there are very good you as competitors So so I think we are beyond the point of thinking we can sit remotely and do something It's it's a 5,000 people Chinese organization led by a lot of Chinese managers applying a lot of the same principles But being able to tap into some of the knowledge and some of the worldwide scale we have That's how we compete with smaller Chinese companies and steam. Novo Simon's in China Yeah, very much like Nils is saying we produce in China. We do research in China Our one of our advantages relative to Chinese companies is that we have a global kind of network of customers and partners That today they do not have but if I should add one thing to it then we try as much as possible to be part of the part of China as we do in other regions where we operate and Two years ago for example to just put an anecdote on the table here two years ago The the Chinese and the US government they meant to talk about cellulosic bio ethanol and they had Delegations from China government delegations will Support it with Chinese business people and the US also had a government and business delegation And these were the two delegations that made we had three people in the Chinese delegation three of our Chinese And we had also three of our American Colleagues in the official US delegation So we just try to be part of what's going on in the society in which we operate and that goes for China as well All right last word John a little thing to add we have had production in China since 1990 The funny thing which is taking place the last few years for us in China is that actually What what we are making the best business out of that is our products from Europe Importing into China sold at very high prices. So that's a kind of strange development that that our Chinese Produced product for the Chinese market competing with the local Chinese competitors That market is not developing as well as the high-end Market with products which they simply demand is coming here from Europe Yes, well that takes us very well into I know you have a question up there But we're running out of time, but I'm sure maybe you can grab the three gentlemen's outside and give them your question Let's take the last question. There was one thing that to hear in the end was a bit You had the Chinese business a bit different From from me looks anyway no who's I'm send and then first but do you disagree on anything? I mean you're all three focused on sustainability and Were a lot a lot of agreement so and is We probably support a different football team I think but but I Think if you wanted real disagreement, you should probably have had a utility company an oil and gas company and then one of us Because those are different mindsets So I don't think you should be very surprised that we are not here with very different mindsets, but if you had asked Us a question like where do you think the Danish subsidies should go should they go to to heat pumps and solar? So so that's probably the level of detail we need to get into to get some real disagreement So if nothing further to add to that, I would like to thank the three of you. Thank you very much for debating this discussion