 Good afternoon, my name is Iris Palmer and I'm deputy director for community colleges here at New America. Thank you all so much for joining us today to discuss this important topic of community colleges and career and technical education preparing learners for the post pandemic economy. I particularly want to thank Caroline for agreeing to moderate all of our panelists for agreeing to participate and the ECMC Foundation for their support for not only this this webinar but also for our work in general. At a community colleges today we're seeing an unprecedented drop in enrollment in the wake of the pandemic. And we're really seeing this more than any other sector in higher education. Recent research has indicated that hands on career and technical education programming have been driving much of this drop particularly for men and even more specifically for men of color. This drop is really troubling because these programs are exactly what we need to help people reconnect to the labor market in jobs that can lead to family sustaining careers. And as community colleges see there is enrollment strap they get less funding which leads to further erosion of the capacity of these key institutions to serve the people that need them most. That's why I'm so excited to have this conversation today. We're going to hear how colleges and philanthropic leaders are thinking about this role of community colleges going into the future and how policymakers are thinking about addressing some of the challenges for community colleges, connecting to the post pandemic world. Caroline, I'm really happy to turn it over to you. Thank you so much Irish. I'm really excited to be here. Welcome to this new America webinar. I'm Caroline Henry. I'm the executive director of the Education Writers Association. EWA is the national professional organization of journalists who cover education. We'll be moderating our conversation about CTE beyond high school specifically the role of community colleges in helping learners develop the academic and technical know how they need to move into or upward in the job market. I know that the pandemic has forced everyone in the community college sector to make wrenching adjustments, but as widespread as the disruption has been it's looked and felt different depending on where you sit. If you're a college president, you may be heart sick over enrollment losses, even as you work furiously to offer students the learning experiences they deserve. If you're a CTE researcher, you may be working just as furiously to understand how policies at the federal, state and local levels can best be used to advance students, workers, employers and the economy. If you're a CTE funder, you may be focused on leveraging this moment to produce a collective shift in the perception and the reality of CTE pathways. And if you're a student trying to complete a course of study to secure a credential with real career value, you just may find yourself with a dream deferred. Today's speakers come to the conversation with just those kinds of diverse experiences. And that's good because CTE beyond high school has only grown in importance and complexity during the pandemic. So now in alphabetical order, here's a bit of background on each of today's speakers. Dr. Pam Ettinger has served in what she prefers to call the Community College movement for more than 25 years. Since 2013, she's been president of Bunker Hill Community College, the largest of 15 community colleges in Massachusetts. Among her honors was being named by the Obama White House in 2016 as a champion of change. Jean-Christophe Sackwe, who goes by JC, is a student in the manufacturing program at Dallas College's Richland campus in Texas. He's also an employee of the college where he works as a specialist in the school's manufacturing lab. So he has an unusual dual perspective on how CTE in community colleges has been impacted by the pandemic. Peter J. Taylor is the president of ECMC Foundation. In this role, he's led more than $225 million in grants and investments, primarily related to the college success and career readiness of underserved populations. As a speaker and author, he focuses on the role of CTE in closing the skills gap and the need to break down the stigma that holds back CTE and its students. Lul Tesfai is a senior policy advisor with the Center on Education and Labor at New America. There, she conducts research and analysis related to the education and training models, workforce development, and worker protections. Her past positions include a stint as director of policy in the Office of Career, Technical, and Adult Education in the U.S. Department of Education. So, Peter, I would like to start with a question for you. Today is the last day of February, which is Black History Month, of course, and is also CTE month. Peter, you've written that this month, and I quote, is a great time to emphasize the importance of equity-driven CTE and to acknowledge the complicated history many African Americans have with technical education programs. Could you please help us better understand what you mean by equity-driven CTE and why it's important? Let me start, Caroline, and thank you for having me today. Talk a little bit about that complicated history, because it does influence what we do today to try to bring more students of color into the CTE field. For the longest time, as you well know, CTE programs were considered the track that people went on when they were academic underachievers. And it was really unfortunate because it gave the field a little bit of a stigma that the highest and best use of your skills was to go to a four-year route while somehow denigrating those who chose to work with their hands and learn by doing. Who maybe didn't thrive in traditional academic settings. And as a result, we've seen not enough young people of color enter these fields because they've heard a mantra over and over and over again that it's really not the best path to go. In fact, I think we can all agree that a young person who goes out and gets a two-year associate's degree, becomes a plumber, start a small business, employs people. It's really just as valuable. A contributor to the well-being of his or her community as somebody who goes and gets a four-year degree. So part of it is kind of erasing that stigma. And I think particularly for communities of color, you have seen the CTE courses being overwhelmingly represented, particularly in the skilled trade space by traditionally Caucasian communities, male dominated. These are great fields where people can in fact thrive. I remember going to a motorcycle repair program in Florida about four or five years ago. And the teacher said, you know, I love it when women come to this program. Women's hands are smaller and they do a better job because they can get in and fix things better. What a great opportunity for a young woman to pursue and really thrive in that field. So to me, you know, equity, you've got to think about some of the research around house young people are messaged and where they're steered. And really the good outcomes that can come about. We've been a lot of money, Caroline, focusing on single mothers and their educational journeys. CTE is the perfect track for many of them, whether it be in the healthcare field, skilled trades, culinary, where they can get a decent job or in a family sustaining wage and take themselves out of poverty. And in fact, some research we sponsored through the Institute for Women's Policy Research shows women who get that CTE certificate, half as likely to end up in poverty as single parents than those who actually get that one or two year education at community college. So there's a strong case to be made for focusing on equity gaps by focusing on CTE. Absolutely. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to Pam, and we, you know, Iris had mentioned the enrollment declines and the relationship to CTE. So, as we know, higher ed has been consumed with the issue of enrollment declines during the pandemic with community colleges, particularly hard hit. Can you explain how enrollment issues have been playing out specifically during COVID at the college that you had? Of course. And thank you for, for your invitation for me to join you today. With our community colleges with a number, I mean all of the community colleges around the country right there's about 1200 of us. So in urban community colleges on either coast or experiencing this, the drop in student population is this proportionally affecting men of color, particularly black men, and in more particular studies, young black men. It is, it is to me, one of the crisis that's not only born of COVID, but in the way that we have treated the, or population of people of color in higher education period. They're the most vulnerable because our systems aren't built for them. Our systems are built for the population that we recognize 50 years ago, traditional students, first two years of a four year college. So we don't think about what is it that our, let's say young black men see as barriers, or their policy oriented, they are the way that they are welcomed or not welcomed into, into our higher ed community. And, and simply the questions we asked the way that we treat them. What cove it has done is it has devastated our communities of color in in K 12 education and healthcare and transportation and childcare and housing all the things that forms, what I call a safety net around folks who are vulnerable. Because higher education is, it's almost a kind of luxury for communities of poverty and communities of color, we're the first to go. If you are graduating out of high school and you're, you're, you're living in very cramped quarters, and your family begins to get sick or you get sick. And that's one of the things that makes the safety net begins to disintegrate. And because of that historical lack in the community, it contributes to this population decline. And we are now scrambling to figure out how do we pair that that that net. But we're also very conscious that we want not just a recovery, but we want adjust and equitable recovery so we can't just build things back in the crappy way it used to be. You can't have the same, the same social safety net that was never safety in the first place. So we're being mindful and CTS, I think a part of that solution in that the stem feels and of course the trades. But also the new emerging fields, things like clean energy. What we call white, not not white collar, not blue collar but new collar jobs in it in cybersecurity, all of those things but we need to be careful that we don't build the skill base in such a way that it becomes a second class citizen again. Whatever CTE we don't want an underclass of CTE workers so you know learn how to code in a month and then that's all you know is how to code for a month. And it doesn't stack into anything else so that we're paying a lot of attention to that. Well, thank you. I, I do want to turn to the student on our panel now JC. As we discussed you're a student seeking an associate's degree in advanced manufacturing, and you're a specialist in your school's manufacturing lab. You felt the impact of COVID related enrollment changes up close and personal. What can you share with us about what that's been like for you, and perhaps some of your fellow students. So, as a student, it's impacted me in the ways that many of my classes may not be able to be had by anybody. So, we've had to kind of try and band together for some of the smaller classes that may not have enough people to enroll in outside of, you know, the facilities that the campus gives us just let them know by you know calling them and saying hey we're going to take this class together and just get on it because if we don't do that in the classes they just won't happen. There have been other classes which just for me did not happen this semester in particular, that has kind of set me back about at least six months if you know all goes well next semester, and have enough people enrolled in those courses in order to make them meet. Now, as working there, I can certainly see the struggles that many of the students have when you know our staff is enrolling them and perhaps the wrong courses, and you know that doesn't help them with them wanting to come back if they're taking a higher level of having difficulties doing it, but conversely because of the pandemic when somebody has been enrolled in courses like that that there may not supposed to be be in we can give them extra attention that they may not have had otherwise. Not that that's the ideal situation but we're trying to adapt as we go. But even then we're seeing quite a few people just fail to come back after a single semester. Right. So that's paradoxical that with the declining enrollment that the slight silver lining is some folks are getting a little more attention, but still that the, you know, that the hit to people's trajectories is very real it sounds like falling away not being able to get the courses they need. So let's, you know, so certainly there's major problems I'd like to turn to you little and just say, you know, as a policy expert. What ways have federal and state policies supported efforts to retain community college students and reengage students who have fallen away we've heard both Pam and JC talk about this, this huge problem, and maybe add kind of what more needs to be done. Thank you for that question. I think it's a really important one. And since the start of the pandemic, there have been three large scale federal investments to support mostly existing federally authorized education and training programs through Perkins CTE through the higher Education Act, and through the workforce innovation and opportunity act the first federal investment, which was passed in March of 2020 the cares act established an education stabilization fund which included a governor's emergency education relief fund, and it also included a higher education emergency relief fund, the governor's reserve fund provided $2.9 billion in funding the higher education fund provided 14 billion. And since then we've seen two additional pieces of legislation, the coronavirus response and relief supplemental appropriations act in December of 2020, and most recently the American rescue plan that passed about a year ago, and we've seen states, you know, use this money for different things. So, for example, Maryland is using about $10 million of their cares act funding from the governor's reserve to provide funding for community college workforce development to expand existing training and educational programs that are new and demand post COVID. Texas is using a portion of their governor's reserve to maintain the state's need based financial aid programs to keep students enrolled in community colleges as well as their state universities. North Carolina is investing about $15 million into their community college system to provide tuition assistance for students enrolled in short term workforce training programs that lead to an industry recognized credential Virginia is using almost $5 million for, again, you know, community college programs to address the financial needs of students providing some last dollar scholarship for displaced adults so that they can enroll in training programs that offer stackable credentials and and we've seen the same sort of investments at the local level we heard a little bit from from that, you know, we've also seen East Carolina University in North Carolina, you know, obviously they're for your institution but they're investing more in tutors and counseling we've seen that in other other community colleges as well. And Chippewa Valley Technical College in Wisconsin is using some of their federal dollars under the higher education fund to invest in open education resources to make textbooks, particularly in a nursing program or affordable and this is something that won't just benefit students during the pandemic but certainly for for years to come. So, you know, it's, it's been great that we've that community colleges and state systems have had a massive influx of funding to address the, you know, support needs of students as well as the training needs of students and we know that community colleges are going to be even more critical to help build a healthy and inclusive recovery. But it's really important to distinguish between relief and recovery a lot of the funding that's come out so far has been intended to address the pressing needs of students and that's why we've seen so many investments and tuition supports and things of that that nature. That does not necessarily make a recovery think what we need to see in the future is more investments to build the capacity of community colleges to work with employers to work with industry to design high quality education and training programs that provide use and and working adults a pathway to high quality and family sustaining careers. So, what I didn't hear you talk much about is getting the word out and marketing and re engaging. So we maybe we can talk about that a little bit more later. But for the moment, Pam, I'd like to turn to you. The research shows that community college students who drop out of school for any period of time are much less likely to graduate to actually get a good degree than their peers who stay in school. So, with, what is your college been doing to tackle that issue. And what role has had the bandwidth to deal with that. And what role has CTE if any played in in that role in that issue. This is, this is not. This is the issue of persistence and retention has been one of the biggest barriers to completion of a degree and therefore to credentialing and we do. I think that is really the key lever right to get folks into into employment and sustainable employment that would allow them to grow. We're seeing, I would not say dramatic but certainly a noticeable drop in both retention and persistence from semester to semester and then from year to year. We've had a couple of years of covert from our populations. We have done everything that you can think of under the sun. We have forgiven, we've forgiven debt on our books to encourage folks to come and re engage with us. If you are to sign up for classes this semester, we will forgive your debts prior to this, in order to give folks a clean slate, and once students are with us, we're doing a great deal of wrap around tutoring. We've moved into basic needs so that we have a food pantry now, in case students are having those financial issues, and we are also dealing with things like homelessness and mental health. If a student is disengaged, we do outreach, we called God, the last time we did this, we call some 800 students to figure out why they're dropping out and the causes are similar. It's money. It is children in the home, you know that they have to take care of during COVID all the things that you know that keeps them from coming back. There's a whole group of students that who have some college but no degree, because they have dropped out and have not re engaged in a national student Clearinghouse research has shown that with that population, if we re engaged them. The likelihood is that at least half if not more of those students will succeed. So it's having the bandwidth to re engage right so some of those care dollars that were mentioned actually went into that and hopefully that becomes a strategy that we can keep up. Ultimately, though, the care dollars are nice, but they will be gone by 2024. So a more steady way of funding the community colleges and funding workforce development and CTE, I think would pave the way into more success. Right. And I'm very interested in kind of the differential, the differences between type types of, you know, students dropping out and kind of falling off track. So maybe we can talk a little more about that. You know, Peter, I'd like to reference something that Iris mentioned right at the top about research a recent working paper specifically found that community colleges that offered lots of hands on technical programs suffered disproportionately large increase enrollment drops. You can see why a lot of those programs are hard to offer online or, you know, in a mid COVID. It also found that the enrollment declines in those programs explained much of why community colleges lost more male than female students during COVID. From what you've seen, I know you have a great perch looking across the sector. How are schools and employers responding to this challenge, and why does it matter that they do so. So, I think, you know, we certainly learned when COVID hit, and you know it hit like a body blow to higher education across the spectrum. Some classes were a lot easier to transition to online than others. Right, you can move a history class to online because by and large you're talking about this week's readings and you can do it in a zoom format even if it's not perfect. Very hard to move an HVAC repair class where you're used to working in the shop, putting wires together, having an instructor, an instructor look over your shoulder and kind of give you guidance. One of the major investments we made when it was clear COVID is going to be more than a two week adventure was to make several grants to community colleges, including Chippewa, which Louis mentioned earlier, to help them bring CTE courses online. One of the things I think we found is that, while you can't, you know, always replace the practice you get in the shop, there's an awful lot of work that can be done in the virtual reality space. And so we paid for developing various curricula and modules that allow a student to wear those oculus glasses and practice and learn the difference between this approach and that approach and the types of fittings that go together and do it virtual reality wise before he gets into the shop. Again, part of the decline was the fact that, you know, these courses, because they're in person, had to be more socially distanced, had to be lower enrollment, it was more expensive to operate because you have to do a lot of cleaning afterwards for safety purposes in the era of COVID. And so you saw tremendous decline in programs that are traditionally attended by male students. So coming out of COVID, I would think that that enrollment will tick up, but I hope we've learned something that as Pam said, we can't go back to the same old same old. We now can take some of these online modules, which students can learn at their own pace. So they don't have to be in school quite as often that scheduling flexibility. I think it would be critical to bringing people back. Well, I'd like to turn now to JC, you know, just what Peter was talking about the issues of, you know, how, how you can operate hands on kind of training programs during COVID or not. I, it can be a pretty poor fit for online learning virtual reality that's fascinating I've seen that operate with say medical students but I haven't seen it in HVAC training, or manufacturing advanced manufacturing. So, tell me a little bit, JC, from your experience, how the react those realities of, you know, what can be offered in person during COVID and, you know, what can be offered online how did that play out for you and students that you work with. So, at our facility, when the initial wave of the pandemic hit and everything was shut down. We were in a scramble to try and, you know, continue teaching the classes I was in class at that point that was, you know, hands on, I was learning to use what's called an EDM machine. And that kind of got blown out of the window there is no virtual training for that particular machine that we had access to so all of our curricula just went straight to, you know, book learning and theoretical knowledge which has kind of impacted me negatively in the long run personally. I can't since I still can't operate that machine with as much knowledge as I can, the other machines in in our lab. But since then there have been, we do have access to simulators for some of our for some of our machines, not all of them. The issue arises and the simulators we have access to are not necessarily the same exact as the ones we use in class. So although they can understand, and they're incredibly draconian as far as like how you even use them. They make things a bit more difficult than you would do in in real life, but we have tried to push students into doing that online as much as they can so that when they come in, they can engage with the machines. Unfortunately, because a lot of this is all self paced and online. Many people neglect that. And in favor of coming in with the limited amount of time that we've had because as the pandemic hit we cut our hours, our contact hours. In the school and had a greater emphasis on online learning. But many of the students did not do the online curriculum before coming in because they just came in and expected us to teach them as normal, which has caused us to lag behind a little bit and what we were attempting to teach them in that semester. It has caused us to change some curriculum for some of the upcoming classes as far as what's covered because it just wasn't covered during those periods of time when those students were taking those classes. Right. So, just so much disruption and so much need to be flexible and sounds like, you know, with some success but also difficulties. Yeah, so just pulling out a bit and going to more of a policy level. I, you know, in the news a lot we've heard about the whole issue of free community college that's been a big issue of, you know, politically. I'd like to ask little your, what are your thoughts on the removal of free community college from the Biden administration's build back better package. And kind of a related development is that states are kind of having their own stepped up efforts to offer free college, do either of these developments affect CTE and community colleges and if so, how do you see that playing out. That's a great question. And, you know, the prospects of the build back better after which past the House of Representatives back in November are unknown but I think what seems pretty certain is that the inclusion of free community colleges is not a priority not even a scaled down version. You know, 45 billion dollar two year. 45 billion dollar five year investment which was included in the house for Jen. I don't know that that will necessarily take away from the momentum around free community college however I mean this is something that started years ago at the local level. There are about 350 college promise programs around the country and there are 19 states that have some version of a college promise program these programs tend to be last dollar scholarships meaning that students need to exhaust Pell grants and other sources of money before they can take advantage of promise dollars and what the research has shown is that, you know, waving, you know, tuition at community college, not just increases in enrollment for students who might not otherwise attend college but it increases their wages so it seems like a really promising intervention and I think, you know, even if it's not included in whatever federal bill passes next that that won't take away from the movement. But note, however, that there are some other significant higher education provisions in the build back better act. For example, the expansion of Pell grants for low income students and more money for college completion and career training programs. For instance, there's $1.2 billion for a tacked program that trade adjustment assistance community college and career training program this is something that was first introduced introduced in response to the great recession, and it provided funding to community college and New America's own evaluation of the tack program found that participants were twice as likely to complete a program and earn a credential and almost 30% more likely to have positive labor market outcomes than comparable students. So it's really great that there is some interest in putting more money into an initiative like that. I think that can be used for childcare for transportation for advising and navigation services a lot of the things that Pam mentioned are really important for this, this student population. There's an even larger community college investment in the build back better after $5 billion program for community college and industry partnerships. It's really administered by the Department of Education and Coordination with the Department of Labor tacked as a labor program. And, and this too would provide some much needed resources to again build the capacity of community colleges it takes time and resources to design programs and if we're talking about preparing for a post pandemic economy economy, that planning and that collaboration needs to happen now and and so really hopeful that build back better will will move forward and address some of the critical needs that community colleges and their students are facing. Yeah, that is really informative. All the other ways that money is flowing into the sector. So, speaking of money, Peter. I'd like to see a little bit of your thoughts on or hear your thoughts on what philanthropy can do you mentioned an investment that you had had, but please tell us more about what you think the role of philanthropy is at this moment. Well, yeah, I think, you know, particularly in the absence of a national strategy on CD philanthropy can has a huge impact on systems change in this space. You know foundations need to be encouraged to fund things at the smack of risk, or innovation. In my years in government and I worked, I worked in government I worked as a CFO of a major university system public university system, I know from experience that anytime you do something a little innovative a little bit different. That maybe isn't quite tested yet. Somebody somewhere it's going to come after you and tell you you know you're misusing government money or you know you didn't do good due diligence. So great things philanthropy can do is we can seed programs that might be a little bit new that nobody's really tried and see if they work, and then to talk about ways to scale up. We have seeded a few programs like this and I couldn't be happier with the results where you know we've particularly around helping young men who've recently been released from the justice system, who need training need jobs, innovative programs and community programs put together with local unions in this space. So taking risk on innovation programs is just a great way for philanthropies to have outsized impact on driving innovation. Another good area is frankly fund CTE programs with proven track records, you know, welding might not be sexy to a lot of people, but guess what people graduate from those programs get good jobs, and they pay good wages, but they're not not cheap to start up. And then thirdly, and I'd be curious on Pam's perspective on this. One of the things philanthropy can do is help the community college sector get better at data collection and storytelling. Again, having worked in higher education space for a long time, and watch some of my private university peers who are so good at raising money. Well, sometimes it's because they're just better at telling the impactful stories that excite foundation, impactful stories that excite individual donors. Community colleges need to do a better job at that but to do it sometimes you need to do a better job on data collection so you can tell the story in a meaningful way. I'd love to see investments in that capacity building for our community college sector. Great. Well, thank you for that and I, you know, I'd like to get into something that we talked about a little earlier about, you know, who would people and which kinds of programs are sticking with it during the pan, you know, the pandemic and which maybe are falling away. So, I guess I'd start with Pam and just this issue of certificates versus degree granting programs that it seems like everyone wants a credential that doesn't take too long to earn but still get you a high paying job. But what do we really know about the value of the CTE certificates and other micro credentials in in landing students and good jobs and and have you seen any differences in the enrollment of people during the pandemic in kind of certificates versus degree programs so that's that's a bunch of questions I'm sorry but try to make sense of them. It's useful to sort of go down the string right and just sort of name this the spectrum of how you can learn at an institution. Let's start with non credit on my left hand side and credit credentials on my right hand side. In the old days, before COVID and all of these different tumultuous things happening. The degree is the currency of the day college credit is the currency of the day and I can tell you it's still is the currency of the day, because COVID will eventually go away or get normalized in some way right now it's endemic and it soon will be, you know, some version of the flu or however folks want to see that recovery. Right now non credit credentialing because it is shorter and because it doesn't jump through the hoops of getting credit per se, or popular everybody and their brother in law are offering some small certification or some small micro credentialing and the colleges or we have a Cisco certification that is, I think three months, six months is short. And we have things like CNA or certified nursing assistants. That's literally four classes and three days on site, right, and they're non credit. But what we're trying to do is to build those non credit things so that they're stackable that eventually they'll stack into a certain assertive those are certifications to stack into the next step which is a certificate. That's for credit and certificates can build with different components into an associate degree, which then will build into a bachelor's degree or master's degree and so on and so forth. Because we'd like to think that the person who comes and get a six week or, or three month. Certificate certification industry certification will eventually move along and get better and better credentialing for more and more advancement because they're in, you know, and and that's, that's, that's one way to keep students from being sort of locked into what I call the underclass CTE worker, right, you can only do coding and therefore you can't do anything else. You didn't get any college credit for it so you can't move to the next step. Right now community colleges are trying to erase the lines between non credit and credit. So there's a greater flowing of credentialing going up the ladder. Right, so they're trying how do you think that there's a lot of barriers to that I mean how how well do you think it's working. I think because we're so desperate right now, every college is doing it's working better. Because if you can imagine you've been teaching in the credit area for agents and ages let's say for 10 years, and you're a professor and you're creating, you know, these wonderful sort of curriculum now there's the, you know, the aggressive rascals on the other side saying well these people have got the skills now validate them. Yeah, there's a, what is the word I hate to use this word but there's a natural snobbery that goes on. Right that that has gone on with CTE for a long time this is not the first time that we've heard that word. And yet kind of the kind of skills that are being trained on a non credit and it's amazing, and they are earning 6070 $80,000 a year. What we do is to have that be portable and allow folks even further growth and to change the field some more community colleges a poise for that because we are scrappy. Right, we, we, we, we say the heck with the snobbery we need to get students in classes and in jobs. Now we just have to sort of bring the rest of the field along. Right. 100% agree with everything that No, I mean, I think it's, I think it's great and short term programs certainly have value but I think it's important to really examine who they are valuable for. They're not all created equal, and the reality of the situation is women and people of color and immigrants do not see the same, you know, sort of positive boost and participating in short term programs alone that aren't stackable is as as Pam mentioned is other groups. I last year did some analysis based on training short term training data from Washington State. And what it revealed is that you know men and women enroll in short term training and training at comparable levels but they enroll in different programs and it mirrors the occupational gender segregation that we see in our, our labor market I mean short term programs tend to have higher completion rates and they're more affordable so they're, they're attractive right especially now, given our economy but the value of a program can't, you know solely be assessed by those measures you have to look at the labor market outcomes of graduates and, you know, while short term graduates might be earning, you know, more than the hourly minimum wage in a region it doesn't necessarily mean that they're earning a living wage and again this is disproportionately impacting women, women of color who tend to be over represented in programs in healthcare and and in education. And so that's really important to, to keep in mind like what are the labor market conditions that these program graduates are finding themselves in it also really speaks to the importance of labor policies that ensure a living wage for these in demand occupations we, you know, our populations aging, we will always need CNAs and home health workers, but, you know, it's not enough to just get people into these jobs we have to create career pathways as Pam mentioned and we really have to make sure that the initial jobs that they end up in are, are providing them family sustaining benefits. Thank you for that. I do want to move on to some audience questions in a minute. So, if you have them please put them in, we have, we want to, we won't get to all of them at all but I will maybe get to some of them. And before we do that I just want to ask one more myself. And this is for you, JC, I really would love to hear from the student perspective, you know, what helps or hinders students from staying enrolled and on track in a community college CTE program, you know, and maybe you can share a little bit about what has motivated you just, you know, to persist despite setbacks and challenges so you know just your take on that a little bit. So, I, I know for some students they're just incredibly driven right so they, they would do this regardless of whether or not anybody told them to but for a lot of them. They fall off I think anyway some of them I know fall off because of difficulties with outside forces or with the enrolled the enrollment in certain courses being an issue there's one student right now who's having an issue with getting to pay for the courses and one of the grants are that is helping him like didn't work I'm not entirely certain what's going on but we're trying to work him through that we're just. It's so he may not come back but he's I think three courses in others they just, they get enrolled in this course they try it for a bit and then they just leave. Myself, the thing like that keeps me going is just, I'm very close to being done. Speaking of certifications versus associates like degree plans are our counseling staff tends to push the associates degrees over certifications. And I can tell you right now I have all of the courses done in the certification but not for the associates and the only thing holding me up as associates classes so. I'm just keeping going because I have almost none left is not something that is applicable to everybody and just the thing that I, I try to make it an environment that people want to come back to. So that they can continue learning and you know, then sometimes that works there's a few students I'm actually pretty good friends with and we play games and watch movies and stuff every now and then. But I mean I'm one person and. Oh boy, some of the staff just make it very difficult to want to come back the next semester and continue to pursue their, their career. Is that because of advising or being tough and grading or. No, just some of the, some of the staff can. Their courses are a little bit difficult in the sense that they can really cause students to not really feel like it's worth their time. For one reason or another, specifically, whether or not they're actually learning what they need to learn. But outside of that, like things outside of my control, we just try to, you know, create a small community and hopefully anybody who stays around will be able to look out for each other at the end of the day. Well, bolster each other. Yeah, thank you for that. Well let's get let's turn to a question we have from the audience. Well, while breaking down the CTE stigma. How do we also work against the tracking that black communities have experienced in the past, and are concerned about. I think that's a really I'd invite Peter maybe to jump in on that I know it's something you've written about and I'd really love to hear Pam specifically your take and any, you know, Lule or JC also but. Yeah, I'm a Pam put in some comments that are that are very useful to consider a stackable credentials ensuring students are getting college credit similar comments from a few minutes ago. You know, part of it look the rest of the world doesn't look at CTE this way in Europe. It's perfectly appropriate and even commendable to pursue a CTE career vis a vis that of a university education. And it's really kind of in some ways only this country, where we have pushed people away from that track. I think it's really important early in a young person's educational journey. To middle school and high school, to help them understand what all the various pathways are, and that the pathways are really in many ways, equal to each other in terms of value in the, the contributions you can make back to your community. And so changing that stigma in people's minds is really critically important from the get go I think. Pam, do you want to jump in there at all. No, I feel like you covered it. Peter's got it. Peter's got it. I can agree. I kind of see this educational like stratification, stratification happening. There's so many students who just don't know about our program or aren't interested, and think, you know, they're going to do college stuff and get the degree plans and it'll come out. They don't necessarily have an idea of, Hey, there's these other jobs, you know, that in fact if you get into them and work your way up, they pay as much as not more than some of these, you know, left these other degree plans that are more standard. You know, the other thing I will say, and I'm going to try to not get off topic here, Caroline, but, you know, I was a trustee in the four year space at major university system for many years and CFO and a research university. With all due respect, there's some tracking in the four year space as well, where a lot of kids are color are encouraged to take those majors that don't lead to higher paying jobs for whatever it's worth. There's tons of data to show whether it be engineering, nursing, computer science, you get much better high paying jobs there and yet many of our students are encouraged to go other routes and, you know, until we also address that inequity and that kind of tracking, we're not going to fully solve this problem. Right, so it's not just in CTE and community colleges, that's a really good point. Okay, I have another question from a audience member. What are good examples of programs that leverage the workforce ready learning that CTE provides but also offer a path to a four year transfer for higher wages. That's almost sounds, you know, that's it's very difficult to pull that off. Anybody have any examples of that for the audience. Yeah, I can chime in first I mean I think we're seeing a lot of interest and momentum around college connected and degree apprenticeships. So these are earn and learn models where students are employees from day one, they're partnered with an employer they're earning in college, but they're also learning in the classroom theoretical knowledge that's important for them to perform their job and community colleges play a really important role in college connected and degree apprenticeships providing the related classroom in instruction and I think part of the reason why this is emerging as a really promising practice is in addition to providing hands on learning which we know is really enriching. It's really affordable, because oftentimes employers are paying for the post secondary learning, and they're equipping individuals with the skills and the credentials. So industry recognized credentials as well as post secondary certificates and degrees that are needed to succeed in the labor market and not just in the traditional skills trades but in it. And financial services and healthcare advanced manufacturing. This is one model that federal government has been investing significantly into they just announced a grant opportunity last week that could go to community college as well as other training providers, because it kind of makes sense for all the users involved for post secondary institutions for employers and for workers and learners. I can speak to that somewhat we have several apprenticeship programs within our purview with different manufacturers in the area and it doesn't happen all the time, some of those opportunities they lead to further education when say they complete the apprenticeship training and then they want to boost them to a different, you know, sector there are a couple of people I'm in contact with, we're now going to four year degree plans in order to, you know, work for a company who wants them to have that skill set. Great. Well, I think the, the transfer to to the bachelor's degree or a college bachelor's completion has been given really unfair pressed in that if you're going to work in any capacity at all beyond entry level in any trade, or any profession, or to be in an environment as you as you get, you know, more mature and like those of us who are older and years, you need a bachelor's degree, because you're supervising, you know, you're supervising departments you're doing business plans, and those are not necessarily the skills that you would earn in a in a in a six month entry level certificate. So I think in any field at all. The ability to move on to bachelor's is is a requirement now I don't necessarily think that is, you know, that it is an option in that way about the apprenticeships on the Biden administration through the Department of Labor has just revived the advisory committee for apprenticeships and we are working on four or five recommendations that will bring apprenticeships into the contemporary age. We have wonderful track records with our trades, but we need to work on diversification of our human resource, we need to be much better in the DEI area, and then with emerging industries like clean energy, like the business and professionals, professional fields that apprenticeship is just not seen as a an instrument that they should be that's what internships are people are calling them different things because they have certain ideas about what sounds better or what's more elite right well internships or apprenticeships. So I think the field needs that adjustment to really understand that we're not all different pieces and silos, it is all one system. And all work is to really make that system seamless I look at Germany. Actually, Germany looks at us and they go what are you people doing. She's just in conversations with the German Council general, and she's like, we want to come and work on your apprenticeships I'm like you have apprenticeships, we need to learn from you. We're in a very strange time, I think in higher education, but it's a good shaking out right this is what is needed. This is exciting about your this is one of these recommendations coming out. A preliminary report in April, and it's a two year stint on this advisory so about a year or so after that will be final recommendations. And they are everything from figuring out how it can be easier for employers to get apprentices because right now you have the climb very steep mountains. And where the focus needs to be, which is not so much the fields themselves because every field needs one, but how to get our how to support our employers and applying for these things. Right. Well, I have a question in here but from a distinguished EWA member from Colorado. And so I have to ask that because we're really coming up on time from our journalist member here. And so we're going to have innovations in course offerings, micro credentials, short skills courses, etc, to encourage students to come back and give them what they need. Anybody want to tackle that in a few minutes that we have remaining we've I know we've touched on that somewhat. I'll offer two ideas. You know, we funded a program through Sinclair Community College in Ohio that was looking to try to figure out how to bring students back and how to compete with for profits that are just much better at marketing. And I think they did a number of focus groups of students and they found two things really drive the issue scheduling fest the flexibility and promises a fast completion. And they really designed a program as engaging adults to graduate leveraging efficiencies eagle, and that eagle program is all about focusing on scheduling flexibility and fast track to completion, and it's having great success. So, if your members interested in looking for example Sinclair Community College in Ohio. Yeah. I was going to say and then you pay them, because their skin in the game is not to work so they can come to you so you need to sort of backfill their paycheck, and then give them a transportation stipend. They knock on your door I ran out of money doing that. And this is actually a topic that New America is doing some research on looking at six community colleges that are implementing strategies to bring students back and some of the things that they're exploring is looking at registration holds, reexamining their marketing efforts and how they're deciding programs to make them really attractive to, to adult learners so it's something that will be sharing more about in the coming months. I can certainly say that the students who are in the internship or apprenticeship programs, almost never miss because they are literally being paid to be there and it is their job. Whereas the others they have to work around schedules and we have to be as accommodating as we can but occasionally that just can't happen. Well, I'm, I'm going to give you the last word then because I think we are out of time. Thank you all so much. Thank you to the audience for coming with all those great questions. I wish we could have gotten to more. And I, that's it. Thank you very much for coming to our webinar.