 And Happy International Women's Day. Welcome to Fignance, the Power of Imagination. This is still Season 1. Not sure when that'll end, but it's Episode 4, and I still haven't been cancelled. There's our reminder of what we're doing here at Fignance. I want to entertain, and I know this episode will do that, and inspire. We're going to talk about a big idea, not a small figment, but a big idea, and that's a sustainable, inclusive society, especially with regards to security, the world I kind of grew up in. And, but you'll still hear about some amazing dreams that have come true, some figments that have led to an incredible life, because my guest is my great friend, Dr. Alan Rovet, and she's coming to us from Vancouver, Canada. Are you there? Hi. There you are. How are you doing, Fig? Great. It's so good to see you. It's always good to see you. So you know what happened to me? I got involved in women, peace, and security at the Pacific Center for Security Studies, and not accidentally, because equal rights were always a core value for me, at least internally and eventually externally. As I learned about the UN Security Council Resolution on Women, Peace, and Security, and learned more about the value of inclusiveness, it became a thing, and through that thing, we met in Washington. Thank God. So I should probably give your bio, which will take the entire 30 minutes, and then, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to take up any time on your bio except this. You became a medical doctor at age 21. In the middle of a civil war, you started a voice for Libyan women in war-torn Libya. And you've only been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize twice, once by the government of Sweden, once by Canada. I just checked my resume, zero times so far. Please don't complain to me that you were not yet selected. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. You have an incredible background. And I do want to say, for those who are watching you, maybe know me as a hard-nosed fighter pilot. I don't care about women, peace, and security. It's not because I'm politically correct. I don't like that concept of being politically correct. I like to be practically correct and do things that work. And inclusiveness works. And if there's anybody who's made it work through extraordinary influence in the United Nations and elsewhere, it's you. My first question for you is a simple one. Who do you think you are? Superwoman? It's an interesting first question. First. First, you know, it's been incredible to be able to actually work with you through this entire journey. I remember when we first met, I think like five or six years ago now. Seven. It's been seven years. No, six. You're right, six. Yes. See, of course, I'm usually right in this friendship. No surprises there. But when we first met, I remember the conversation, the very first conversation we had was actually about that practicality part. It was about that, not necessarily this pie in the sky vision of, okay, let's talk about equality, which is incredibly important. But it was more about, let's talk about the empirical evidence. Let's talk about the reality that not only does this exist, but that there are fundamental things we could change structurally, politically, socially that actually make it much more effective. And I found our conversation, I remember when we first met to be one of the most rewarding because it was one of the first times where we were talking about things that were rooted in evidence. This isn't a question of like, do you think this is the right thing? Do you think this is a good thing? I mean, I think we'd be pretty hard pressed to find people who say, listen, I don't think everybody should be is entitled to and should have a dignified and equal life. But I think what was different was this conversation around, okay, where, where is the evidence and where can we build on that and where can we amplify those who are already championing it. And that's really kind of where that, where that, that connection first started. Yeah, answer your question if I may interrupt. And I'm sure I'll be scolded later and that's fine. You know, that, that conversation built a sort of shared approach that allowed us to do a lot of things in front of audiences and see two really different people because we're two really different people, very different backgrounds. You, the living Canadian from a huge family, me a cheesehead from Wisconsin from a huge family, but slightly older and in a bit kind of a very traditional white America background and not apologizing for that. It's my background. But we did find a lot of commonality. There aren't ways of looking at the world, I think is pretty critical even now. You know, I think one of the most true things is oftentimes the way we are raised and our experiences shape the way we see the world today and I don't think it's ever been more true for two people than it is for you and I because we'd have. I've had some of the most difficult conversations with you from everything to, you know, to inclusive security and women's rights to things like faith and an abortion and we've had really intense conversations on politics and across the mall I think the reason we've been able to have those difficult conversations and walk away. Not necessarily having changed each other's minds but at least having understood each other's perspective is because there is that underlying respect right there is that underlying appreciation that we've both been in context that have shaped our world view in different ways and I do think, you know, given how different our oftentimes our political viewpoints are or our, you know, social viewpoints are it's been one of the most beneficial things in this increasingly polarizing time someone who has fundamentally different views than me that I can go to and say, you know, why is this a thought like why why why how does this make sense to help me understand the perspective and and that's been really enriching and I think. One of the challenges when it comes to women's inclusion and we see it today, for example, is because it's International Women's Day. A lot of different companies will have their International Women's Day post on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter and a lot of them will run a commercial and a lot of them will for one day celebrate women. For one day. For one day, but none of their policies, none of their business process, none of their leadership like it's all quite superficial and that it really doesn't delve into a lot of the structural challenges and I think until we can start having those more difficult conversations with people who disagree with us, where we both sit at the table and hear each other out. We're just going to get a lot of kind of like band aid solutions and superficial posts and and that goes for for for women's equality that goes for that goes across the board on issues of quality. You know, without without a doubt and and I and I find it a little frustrating that we can't have those conversations. So I'm politely raising my hand. So I'm not interrupted because I've played my one interrupt card. I think part of what you've described is, and I don't know that we're that different in a lot of areas but there are areas where we diverge significantly. And it's not just respect for each other, which we have. But it's kind of respect for human life of people. And we've both seen the worst of times in conflict. And, you know, I had a talk with young person in my life. You know what what matters color of skin when you do look at color of skin and react reflexively or the color of blood. I couldn't be a medical doctor because I do your actor, you know what matters. What really matters is that people are people and anytime you manage their ability to contribute to life. You're not doing well for you or your society. And so, and to go back to what you said about international women's day posts and slogans and banners on websites. Put your money where your mouth is please. Put your money where your mouth is, but also put your put your like actually challenge your systems of power. You know what I mean. Like these companies will be like we believe in diversity and they'll hire like a couple of women in, you know, in the bottom 30% and then the management is all still the same. Right. And so I think it's yes, put your money where your mouth is but also really challenge the existing systems of power be comfortable and be prepared to get out of the way. It's going to be necessary be comfortable and be prepared with very difficult conversations. I mean, you're talking, you know, when we talk about, for example, racial inequality, especially this past year in the US, how many conversations have centered, not those who have been oppressed and suffering but have centered those in systems those who hold power and those in systems of power. It's disingenuous to say that we're realistically going to be solving for, you know, things like poverty and things like economic equality and things like gender based violence and even health equality. If we're not going to start talking about how structures and systems are set up and who benefits from them. We're completely off track. Of course, this is absolutely not a surprise and I'm going to go with what I told you we kind of close with first. Before we take a short break and you've said that men need to address how they benefited from these white men implied systems of power, which a lot of white men would kind of have a lot of men would have a reflex visceral response to. So as I read that and thought about how our audience might look at it it reminded me of something one of the instructor one of the professors at the Asia Pacific Center for security studies, said as we're going down the path women peace and security. And Dr bill Weinegger to give them credit said, men need to get uncomfortable or get comfortable with being uncomfortable. I really do think that's right that because guess what everybody who is disadvantaged diminished discriminated against thrilling feeling pretty uncomfortable all the time. So if we don't like that itchy feeling. That's a that's a good thing and will help us participate in making a change because inclusion, I think you and I agree in fact I'm sure doesn't mean you exclude a previously advantaged group to include another group that means building a truly sustainable inclusive society. What are your thoughts on that. I think first I love that that statement about it's important to get comfortable with being uncomfortable I think that's incredibly true. I think one of the biggest challenges is one of the biggest challenges is the assumption that the pie gets smaller. Right, so if we have more inclusive processes then automatically that means your seat at the table is gone and I think one of the most important ways to translate this to people is I'm we're not saying, you know, let's have women at the table when it comes to peace processes at the exclusion of men we're saying that if it's not representative of the societies it governs it's not going to work. No policy will right. And that does mean having an inclusive process that includes women that includes asking, not only about women but about men as well, you know, do we have representation across socioeconomic status do we have representation of race do we have representation of disability of different, you know, different realities and experiences that people have that shape what they bring to the table right and, and unfortunately oftentimes we don't even when we do have, you know, more inclusive processes more gender inclusive processes, they tend to reflect a particular subset right and until we are, I think, a lot more prepared and comfortable to start asking okay who is sitting at the table why are they sitting at the table, what qualifies them to be there. It'll be really difficult for us to change the makeup of that table and the best example I can give I remember. I got into a heated debate once. Well, somebody. Yes, you would be surprised. A very heated debate because, you know, he brought up the quote by Ruth Bader Ginsburg of like, you know when will, you know, there'd be enough women on the Supreme Supreme Court when there are not and and he brought it up as like an example of how women are trying to take over. And I was confused by that because like you've never, there's never been a problem you've never looked at nine men on the Supreme Court and been like this is fundamentally wrong. And if you don't share that outreach equally, and I can't necessarily trust that you are really here for equality, like that's that's it shouldn't feel uncomfortable to you to even suggest that what exists now is not how it should exist and she was using it as an example to illustrate so I mean there's there's so many examples of how we tokenize women's leadership how we tokenize particular women leaders how we attempt to create role models instead of you know structures that can support women to to not only exist but thrive in spaces of leadership and power in a way that that isn't necessarily true for men and and it can be anything from, I've told you this story before, but sitting in a meeting and having, you know, having to feel responsible for not only being the only woman there, but, but you know being told clearly by mentors of mine that when you walk into room people are going to see first and foremost that you're a woman that you are visibly Muslim, that you are not from here and, and you know my mentor that I never joked and said that you're young but don't worry you'll age out of that one. And, and I, and I know that walking in I always have to. I have to know my stuff, an extra 50%. I have to show up early I have to answer every question I cannot leave any doubt in anyone's mind that I'm qualified to be there in a way that that a lot of my, my male counterparts don't have to, they get to be just themselves not entire. Your male, your male counterparts should have to feel that they should feel equally obligated to do the right thing do their job well be present be prepared. And that's one of the things we saw at AP CSS. When we normalized participation of women in the courses by increasing it to not just one in a seminar but 25% and now beyond is that everybody feels obligated to perform not just a token woman into men I'm going to work in my this episodes what would fig do right now I'll tell you what I do when I talk to groups, especially in the military where I can be nice and blunt. There's a walk in the room and look at the demographics and I address the problems I see none of women, not enough color, whatever it is. What I tell them is you should all be uncomfortable with this. We in the matter of security those who defend security would make the policy that addresses security have to reflect people, the population that they're defending I'm going to take a quick breath here. In a we're so off track, and we could probably go for an hour. And if we could bring up the slide that shows the future episodes, we skipped right over some great pictures. Okay, that's what we've got coming up in two weeks we'll have Susan Helms, Air Force three star general retired and the record holder tied for the longest spacewalk in history. So she must be an astronaut, incredible human being. And then two weeks later we'll talk to some cancer survivors about the, the figment of recovery, the kept them alive that they met. And I've already mentioned our friends on previous episodes, my friends from Hollywood who bring figments to life on the screen. And all of those are going to be fun, but this is cutting into our time here so I am going to get in one thing that I meant to show at the beginning and that's one of this isn't the first time we met but we went to speak at camp Smith about women, peace and security and inclusive security, and I drove my Mustang which is pretty at ask just to call it what it is. And you liked it. And so you wanted to drive it so could we roll the movie clip of a lot and the Mustang. Okay, so as we saw, she's very competent with a stick in a 550 horsepower supercharged Mustang GT which, by the way is 12 years old today I think I really do think this is the anniversary of the purchase. But as we're turning on to the highway, or a place where she could have maybe put a little more pedal into it, the light turned red and she said, and it's red. It was disappointing. Yeah, it isn't but it's a it's a good metaphor because nothing slows you down. Oh, you've done so much you like the way I mean nothing slows you down. You started as a medical doctor you got interested in the voice of women in conflict, you came into the UN world. You've done incredible things but how do you keep going what. Why are you not satisfied with accomplishments that would fill a lifetime for most people. Um, our time to inspire. It's our time to inspire I don't really see them as accomplishments. I think a lot of the work. And I'm sure you probably share this as well. A lot of the work that I've done has been work has been what I felt was necessary and where I felt I could be of service and I do think a huge part of it is my faith. I grew up in a my parents are developed Muslims I grew up in a Muslim household and really fell in love I think with the hospital because the hospital was a place that felt spiritual and holy to me in a way that even you know the mosque didn't know church no synagogue no, no, you know house of worship has ever felt. I would go to the hospital and I would see people of all faiths or of no faith in the same chapel, and having conversations and I think seeing just the humanity and each other and for me that has always been a guiding light I have a kind of not not as comfortable a relationship with organized faith, but with organized religion but with that that sense of personal faith and this belief that God only puts you in places where you can be of service, or where you can learn, right, like where you can help or where you can learn, and that it's your, you are accountable to do one or one of the other, right, and that every space that you occupy is, is not because of your superior knowledge or strength or, but it's, but it's a privilege and it's because you know, through you great work can be done or great lessons can be learned so I think faith is probably has been for me at least a north star. Yeah, I think for me to faith is something that's grown over time and what makes the pigments become real, you have to have faith because at times, you take significant risk. What's your current figment. What's next what's, what's your next amazing thing. Oh, I don't have one. I really, I became a mom last year, and that's been, that's been, I think, one of those moments where or you learn a lot of lessons. And I think it's, you know, not to sound cliche or anything but it's definitely shifted what I see as success in my own life. You know, I think one of my figments is, you know, in a few years when my daughter starts school her teacher says she's a kind kid. That would be ideal. I think as my parents get older, a figment is is to be there. I mean, I think we forget as we're as we're growing up that our parents are also getting older. And this past year was the first time in 10 years that I haven't been traveling for most of the year that I've been able to be with family. And so, so I think recalibrating where I where I prioritize my time is a figment of mine these days. I think shifting the conversation we're having around gender equality and around health security is probably a big one. This notion shifting it in what direction what, you know, what, how would you like that conversation to change. Well now the conversation is okay let's let's deal with the pandemic or let's deal with security and you've been in these rooms as well let's deal with security and then we'll deal with equality. And I think anybody who's looked at the data or who has been in scenarios of insecurity knows you can't do that it's not an either or it's a both and you have to be looking at issues of equality when you are solving for security because the solutions for inequality have to be built in right and and they can't be an afterthought and I think really, you know with covert a huge part of this has been like okay well gender based violence that an all time hot women's economic exclusion is rising. We know that we've set back gender equality by a generation at least right and so the question becomes, what are we going to do about it, are we going to say okay let's solve for the pandemic and then let's solve for economic recovery and then let's talk about gender equality because I just think we need to, we need to reframe the conversation to say you can't have those two without the third you can't have economic recovery without women's inclusion you can't have security without really having conversations around why a lot of women didn't felt less safe at home than they did from a pandemic. Those are those are conversations we need to be having now. So, so how do we not have it set back a generation if it if that's where we think we're, we already are. I think it comes to quite that has to be. How do we practically address that as men and women how do we address that. Now, what do we do tell me what to do. It comes back to your earlier question though about how do we, you know and we're talking about being comfortable with being uncomfortable it comes back to your question of, of, where whichever space you occupy, whether you are a, you know, commander in the military, whether you are a doctor, whether you're a parent, whether you're a high school teacher, it doesn't matter whatever space you occupy in that space you do hold power you hold influence with particular people you hold power with particular people, and it is saying leverage whatever space you occupy whatever sphere of power to ask these questions to say okay hey, where are the women if you're a CEO or if you're a military commander, or are you know, in class ensuring that when we're talking about girls education that percent of girls aren't decreasing because of other, you know, familiar responsibilities or social responsibilities, or you are asking in your local community, you know, how are we supporting women who don't feel safe at home but leveraging the power that you do have and to go a step beyond that, you know, sharing that power and saying you know in your position okay I'm going to find ways to share the resources I have the knowledge I have the networks I have the credibility I have, and the power I have to amplify another voice to ensure that somebody's invited into the room that isn't in the room right now. And I think that's where it starts to be quite frank and if we all do that from from you know parents to CEOs and prime ministers and presidents, then we will have that representation in the room that we will be having those difficult conversations but this assumption that only certain people are responsible and accountable is I think what what sets us back because we all need to be doing it. I told you we wish we had more time. And we'll do this again will do it personally and maybe back on figments. I couldn't agree more and and we're all the folks who feel uncomfortable. Okay welcome to the club of recognize though that taking time to be inclusive to be practically and sustainably inclusive is going to be better for you. So go ahead and be selfish. Company, your university, your government military, better, more effective at what they do. It's going to make it a safer place to live so it's not like you're giving something up, making things better. It's so good to see you give my best your family and miss them to. It's been since your wedding since I saw them so we'll all get together again soon and thanks for being the incredible human being you are and a perfect exemplar for International Women's Day. Thank you. The feeling is mutual not the International Women's Day part, but but the perfect the exemplar of leadership and my love to your family as well. That's it. This is a wrap on our episode for figments. Join us in two weeks and please click like or whatever it is you're supposed to do in the virtual world.