 All right. So this afternoon, our session will be looking at gaps and solutions. So this morning we were discussing about the alliance, why we need the alliance, how to pursue the alliance, how to make our alliance inclusive. So that was our discussion this morning. This afternoon we're going to look at the gaps and how we intend to respond to those gaps. So, without saying anything more, I would like to ask Dr. Tanapon game to present the study on the critical knowledge gaps for sustainable and resilient water energy climate nexus in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. And then Tanapon would have 15 minutes and please ensure that you stay within 15 minutes. Thank you, Tanapon. Hello, and good afternoon everyone from my previous colleague and new face so this is my great opportunity again to share the result from this program about the critical knowledge gap on water energy and climate nexus. So I will start with a figure to give you idea how climate water energy linkage in the Macon was a key context. So in terms of climate in the Macon. There are three I think it's you that you usually hear or heard you know from many meetings regarding to increase the temperature. This is I think usual word everywhere. So I think the second one is very much I think, experienced by the people or local people, particularly on the extreme even in terms of flood and droughts. And we cannot forget Macon Delta that now I think they are facing a lot of challenge in terms of sea level right because of the climate change. So look at the water agenda in the Macon. I think they talk a lot for water security, or in another term, also linked to the water productivity, what water productivity mean how much value of one drop of water. So that is also linked to the socioeconomic development agenda for the country in these regions. And again, you may see people living with flood, living with drought, you know, drought and flood is common issue here. However, as we see or observe or hear the new in last five or 10 years ago, people start complain people start chow up about more extreme in terms of flood and now both in terms of magnitude and was that magnitude and intensity. The third one related very well. The third one in terms of water that that very important is about water for ecosystem. So this topic linked to the sediment fishery ecosystem service, etc. Water sphere, these are three key topics, you know, in the Macon that are talking about, or that's the challenge that we need the solution to address. In terms of energy, I think we cannot say no about hydro power in the Macon and it's always a hot very hot super hot topic and still hot maybe another five to 10 years, I will say that. So, so this is also a key. However, as we know the hydro power is not only one energy sort in this region. I think the main energy system here of course is still dominated by fossil energy. But however we foresee the trend that the renewable energy option is become more and more popular and more and more investment at the local and country scale. So the reason of course is offset between green energy is fossil fuel energy. So I think in the morning you already hear that like in Thailand, Dr which I mentioned about net zero target. So this is also linked to the fossil energy. So you can see the linkage, you can see here. Climate can impact on supply and demand, and also enter up hydro-ecosurgeon hydro-ecosurgeon hydro-ecosurgeon is starting point of everything of water. We get water from groundwater or rain forms. So that is a main thought. So if climate change and affect water ability, then this water productivity flat drought and ecosystem will be affected. Similar climate change also can impact on supply and demand of energy. When we get hotter. If you want more air condition, you need more energy, right? Or when there is a drought, there is a lack of energy, you know, so that also affect kind of energy supply and demand. If you look at the water linked to the energy and climate, as you see here, water is used to produce energy to use to cooling the thermal system. So water can impact between upstream and downstream regulation that also consequence. Water or ecosystem can be a part of climate regulation or carbon sink, you know, that also the connection with the climate. In terms of energy, you can see that energy linked to climate, most of the topic we talked is about carbon emissions. So we can capture and carbon storage that kind of the topic and of course water and energy we link with the kind of infrastructure system like pumping, distribution, irrigation, desalination. So to do that we need energy, you know, to change from water to moving water, we need energy. That's maybe the key. And also energy can impact, you know, flow and ecosystem like idle power that we know for some time already on this topic. At the end cup for this highlight, I think, okay, the program is try to focus water energy climate next set but the call at the heart of the next set here so we have to look at the Enverto safeguard community at risk and also gender equality, disability and social inclusion in this kind of approach. So my next I try to say that there are a lot of existing knowledge now in terms of next set since 2014 that I foresee a lot of study coming out. So right now is almost 10 years. So that why there are many existing knowledge, try to look at where is the next best challenge how you address those challenges. I will go to detail but my point is our study is based on this kind of literature review, getting knowledge from expertise and try to come up with the critical knowledge for this program. The first knowledge that I would like to say is critical is to direct to the vulnerable group people or who are living in the rural area or remote area that still need the energy to support their livelihood. So that why how to enhance renewable energy transition for poor, marginalized and climate vulnerable group, including women and children living with disability, but why still reduce water insecurity in the climate chain. This is a critical challenge. There is a lot of policy at national level on renewable energy sector policy, you know, but it's not go deep yet into this kind of group of people. And we know that the energy have to side of grid and on grid or integrated, integrated, you know, so the renewable energy keep an opportunity, you know, to help these people better because the cost of renewable energy, particularly Lysora, it's become low that like people can, can buy it in the market, you know, in the part is always difficult for people to exit it. Second, I think it's also really went to the early morning section in the panel that the representative from CDI Cambodia and talk about the stalling. So the, the challenge in the medical now is the system, the river system is changing from the natural flow into the regulation flow. This is going to be a new baseline of the medical we cannot dream that we're going to get that back. Now, because many monitoring station, many observation from local people, many evident is very clear that the medical flow is changing already. So, however, that is kind of negative impact and positive impact, you know, we can discuss more later but I don't really want to touch that but I would like to look at the opportunity that we have more solid installation in the system. You know, in terms of both infrastructure solid and nature solid. And this toilet will be kind of limited. This toilet will help, you know, people in many ways. So that why the second knowledge that we look in terms of systematic thinking and next integration approach is, there's another way to balance infrastructure and nature water solid management option for monthly purpose to enhance equitable benefit sharing and reduce climate risk. And you can see this type of a solid in seroton them that try to install floating solar. There's a big gate I think for the solar in the region now, and you can see very beautiful nature solid in Vietnam, you know, as a national part. So now let this is something for the kind of new global trend when you talk about the artificial intelligence remote sensing IOT, you know, now people are able to access the internet, you know, how to apply or use this technology, you know, to improve warning communication system for climate vulnerability group and water energy operator during extreme weather and neutral flow and flood and drought, you know, people know that the system is changing. They want to adapt, but they need notification in advance that will help them a lot to adapt. Can we wrap up in three minutes. Yeah, the first step is about golden long term climate change adaptations. So this is look something more long term. You know, and that is also a challenge because of the climate impact is quite uncertain here. Here in the now and the future, how we can provide long term view for climate change in particularly in the context of climate change recovery. So that is also important and how to link with the community and social marginal group on the adaptations. The next step is about of course today meetings, you know, we have a lot of good think tank organizations, you have experience in influencing policy. So how we're going to enhance the effective net of these think tank organizations, and how we can use think tank as a bridge to bring knowledge to the policy and influence them. So that is a gap. And the last one that we cannot forget is about jet Jesse, you know, way to mainstream Jesse into water energy climate next set policy and related to coordination mechanism. To stop my presentation here in terms of question how we can integrate the next step into the original policy for climate action to just an equitable outcome for panel discussion. And let me keep few seconds to sell the can call again for the flagship and rapid response funny view interesting to apply the grant to add this knowledge gap, please feel free to apply. Thank you very much. Thank you very much game. I'm sure you have a lot of questions but can you hold on to your questions for now because we're going to invite a panel of experts who can help us enlighten about those gaps. Can I request our friends, a Jan Pichaman from Deakin University. John door from Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Australia. Mr. Supreme cheer, the chief river basin planner of the Mekong River Commission. Miss. Aaron Sadong. If you're around. Who is the executive director of bantis Ray Cambodia to please join on stage. Okay, so again a reminder this are the gaps that were identified by game earlier and then the next there's also another set of gaps actually that was related but they were not actively discussed next slide August. Which are this set up gaps but the important to one, the knowledge related gaps. Next slide August. So yeah, so to reflect on those gaps. I have here a framework from, I'm sure you know this guy, Donald rumsfield in about 2002 I think after the bombing in Iraq he was, he was in a press conference and then he was asked whether there were map weapons of mass destruction being found in Iraq. And if there are other things that he learned from what happened in Iraq. And this is what he said, there are no knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. There are also unknown unknowns. There are things that we do not know we don't know. So that will be the job of our experts to help us reflect on those different dimensions. Next slide August. So we're going to look at the known known so what do we know what are the gaps that we are aware of, but we have evidence for so in other words, to tell us whether the gaps that game had identified were really the gaps based based on experiences. And then there are also known unknowns that things we know we don't know. And then, but we are aware of them, and that on the other quadrant are things are the unknown knowns. We don't know about them, but somebody does, but maybe that someone is not telling us. And then the hardest quadrant would be the unknown unknowns. We don't know about them until we start thinking about them now. Next slide please. So our goal is so that's how the quadrant is going to look like so our goal is to expand the known known quadrant towards the unknown so that we can reduce the unknown areas into this. Next slide. So to begin the conversation. Okay. Oh, before that August. Okay, to begin that conversation. May I ask Miss Perron Sadong, who is the executive director of Bantis Ray in Cambodia to tell us about the known known so are the gaps that were identified gaps that you actually see in the field. Good afternoon everyone, respected guest speaker. I'm Perron from Cambodia. I would speak actually based on the practice of one of the local organization in Cambodia. So Bantis Ray is a woman lead organization. We work a lot with the community who are affected by the climate change. So looking into the gap that has been highlighted earlier, there are many areas actually also new area for me. But some area that I totally agree that it is a gap. It is a really true gap regarding to the capacity as well as the governance of the long term climate change adaptations. And also the challenge and success in terms of gender mainstreaming, including disability social inclusion in the women's, sorry, in the water, energy and climate change, for example. So looking into the challenge regarding to the limitation of the awareness, I totally agree because a lot of us at the community level, we don't understand. We learn, we heard a lot about the climate change, but what is it exactly? Does the community people are way enough of the climate change affect their life? In Cambodia, there are 70%, more than 70% who live in the rural area. And the climate change totally affected those who live in the rural area. And more than 50% are women actually. And based on our work with the community women, they are the one who actually direct affected their livelihood. The women who are pregnant also affected, but they don't aware of how to prevent it. They don't aware of how to ensure that climate change adaptations approach. Even those at the moment, there are a lot of action plan and the policy that has introduced it by the government. But the limitation out there regarding to the awareness from the community is still there. So I would just pin out a bit of that. I totally agree on actually the gap that has been highlighted, but more on the gender perspective. Thank you. Thank you. So we will have another round of discussion for which you can add other insights. Now Ajahn Pichaman, from where you sit, are there biases, are there things that you think you know which we have not figured out in the gaps that we have identified? That's a great question. And I have to say the emoji that you see on the, I'm not sure the slide is up there anymore, but the four quadrants, the emoji with the really confused face. That's probably me as I was thinking about the known unknowns. And of course we have to leave it to Albert to give us a very difficult task. That's very intellectually challenging. So in terms of, as I was thinking about this, I thought to myself, you know, in relation to knowledge gaps, policy gaps pertaining to sustainability and resilience, I felt like the known unknowns that we often talk about exist on different levels. So you have, you know, policy known unknowns, you have technical known unknowns, you have operational ones also. And each of these speak to different types of knowledge gaps. So whether it be, you know, the lack of understanding still around how to implement JEDC in an effective manner, for instance, or it could be, you know, what does a just transition actually look like when it comes to renewable energy? But also it was mentioned by the previous speaker, new technology, what do we do with that? What are the ethical conundrums that arise from the utilization of new technology? And so altogether this I feel these issues make me think about some fundamental questions when it comes to these known unknowns. And I thought of four in particular. And Albert, please do stop me if I'm going over time. One minute. One minute. Okay. The first question was really how can we affect the positive change that we want to see most effectively in the policy process? I feel this is very much a known unknown in the sense that we are aware that there are gaps when it comes to policy implementation, but also policy influence. And how do we actually go about that? There still doesn't seem to be very hard evidence as to what works or what doesn't work. The second question was, you know, in view of how interconnectedness defines the water, energy and climate nexus, what might be the unintended consequences of deliberate human activity or development intervention on ecosystem processes and environmental flows in particular? And this is of course why many of us are here today to actually unpack that question and better understand the implications. But of course, when it comes to unintended consequences, many of our brains aren't actually geared towards thinking about unintended consequences because we all like to think that we're rational and we've done the cost-benefit analysis. But as we've seen time and time again, things often happen in ways that are unanticipated. And it's very much when it comes to the concept of resilience itself, it's very much about anticipating uncertainty, being able to cope with it, and then build the ability to adapt and mitigate those unintended consequences later. So I have many more questions as you can imagine, but in view of, I'm pretty sure I don't have time left. There are many more questions I feel that we can ask as part of that known unknown quadrant and which really we have to dig deep in order to think about the bigger picture and what it all means when it comes to building actual resilience and sustainability. Thanks, Ajan Pichaman. I like what you've said about the unintended consequences. So in the language of adaptation, the maladaptation of our outcomes or the maladaptive outcomes. Now, Mr. Soparin Chia, being the chief river basin planner of the Macon River Commission, is there a gap that we are unaware of but should be discussed here? First of all, thanks a lot for involving me and also the Macon River Commission secretariat into the forum. I appreciate that as well. We've done a lot of things, especially with regard to the knowledge gap and engagement that we are discussing today. So for now, related to the question that raised, I just would like to highlight one of the main important points about the work that we are trying to do now, the so-called proactive regional planning in which one of the particular issues is around the cascade operation or cascade management. So we know that the importance of the nexus, of the water, of the energy, the connection with the climate change as well as the food with regard to the social and economic dimension are very important. And we know that there are a lot of engagement from different stakeholders, civil society and government. But at the same time, one of the challenge that we need to further dig down is on the cascade operation. There are a lot of infrastructure is going on in the Macon River basin. So some of them, for example, just take into example of the dam development. There are a lot of developers, the operators and also country. So they need to have some sort of approach, we call it a coordination approach where we can facilitate not just only the exchange of information, for example, the water discharge, the information that is useful for the community as well as for the downstream to manage and to plan well. But also we need some sort of mechanism where the different stakeholders, the operator, the government and also the purchaser can talk to each other in a coordinated way. And in doing that, we have a lot of study, we have a lot of report. But when it comes to the question whether we do enough in terms of ensuring a good information sharing and coordination and management way. So I think that is still the issues that we can further highlight. For the MOC, we are now working with the member country to enhance and improve the way we monitor the information related to the discharge and operation along the Macon. And also we hope that by the regional planning, the first phase we can complete by next year, we can improve our monitoring system and also help with the analysis and assessment and can better inform to the community and the Macon countries. Thank you very much, Mr. Sopirian. Now, John, you've studied the region, you're involved in a lot of things in the region and having listened to your co-panelists and what also game had presented. Is there something that we still don't get it? Right. Well, there's plenty of things I don't get. But first of all, I never thought I'd be reflecting on a stage about the wisdom of Donald Rumsfeld. So that's, that's a pleasure. If Pichamon sort of spoke about unintended consequences, my sort of take home from the next couple of minutes is the importance of credible speculation for this quadrant here of the unknown unknowns. Now, I was getting confused about that phrase, to be honest, but what I've jotted down here, which I read somewhere was just, it's not that complicated. The unknown unknowns are completely unexpected or unforeseeable conditions or events, risks that we cannot imagine or I cannot imagine, or are simply factors of whose existence we or I are unaware. So okay, my first point is that my unknown unknowns and my lack of imagination does not have to be yours. So we are part of a learning community here and we can learn from and with each other as we are today. So what comes to my mind? And I'm not sure if the slide that Shreya knocked up for me a few minutes ago is visible. Yeah. So what comes to my mind? I mean, I couldn't have imagined the global flu epidemic that started just over 100 years ago and killed 50 million people. I did not imagine the pace of solar technology innovation and advancement since they made the first fault solar cell in about 1975. As a kid, I could not imagine bees disappearing. I certainly did not imagine the speed of spread and impact of COVID-19. And I certainly did not imagine these dirty little fire ants that are now sort of spreading their way across the world and quite a threat. So solar expansion, B threats, C 19 and fire ants. These are or were some of my sort of unknown unknowns. I had not been imagining anticipating looking at the emerging data or planning action to respond to these events. But fortunately, some other people had. And I think that's that's another key point to me that my unknown unknowns may not be yours. My second point, Albert, and you did say five minutes in the brief. So give us a moment. And my second point is that thinking through the knock on effects is a key function of the learning communities. So with thanks to Miko, I reference a quick piece in the New York Times by Bill Gayle in 2019. He wrote about climate troubling unknown unknowns. Gayle noted that climate assessments were often concentrating on stock taking. And a lot of us get involved in stock taking, you know, which is really looking at known knowns or, you know, it's sort of it's a, it's a, it's a less speculative venture. But Gayle makes the case strongly that there is a need for credible speculation by policymakers and therefore also presumably knowledge based policy influence organizations. I won't quote him because we're sort of short of time. But let's just use one example back to bees. If bees were to disappear, then think of the impact on crops, food, photosynthesis and carbon dioxide absorption. Einstein apparently said, and I say apparently because he's had so many quotes attributed to him that I don't know how he could have said them all. Einstein apparently said, if the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would have only four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man. So let's maintain our commitment to credible speculation. And I think that quadrant sort of gives us that space. My last point in this first round, Albert is I see the knowledge related gaps and I like the list. I see the policy and practice related gaps and I like the list. But I suggest we have a few methodological gaps and not even and we don't have a section on methodology. For example, in dealing and just one example in dealing with the unknown unknowns and the other quadrants. I'd really like to see a bit of a sharpened understanding and approaches to scenarios and their connection to deliberate processes within and across borders scenarios processes that are not revolving totally around feeding models. Deliberation that is not perfunctory. Deliberation that includes lots of different perspectives and definitely at least a few people with really vivid imaginations. There's a guy called Saul Griffith in Australia. He really helped the Biden administration with their energy policy. And now he's come back to Australia, thankfully, and he's helping our government sort of imagine our energy futures rewiring the USA now sort of rewiring Australia. So deliberation that encourages credible speculation, but then keeps examining evidence as it emerges so we don't, you know, lose sight of the scientific project. And to do that deliberation that is repeated and sustained. I've been involved in too many initiatives that did a scenario process and then said, oh, if we had more time, we'd do a better job. You know, and the project and initiative and a discussion. I think the repeatability is really important. Thanks, Albert. Thank you very much, John. So I hope so I guess the key message here is that we need a bit of intellectual humility right with regards to how we try to understand some of the these kinds of issues because there are things that we might know. But there are also things that others would know, and they're really having this opportunity to have conversation to discuss can actually help us expand that boundary of what we know. Now, before I give our panelists the second round, is there a reflection or questions from the floor. Either a question about the gaps that game identified or a question or if you have opinions on what our panelists have discussed. Anyone would like to take on the challenge now. Not necessarily a challenge, but I just remember an argument I hadn't college years ago and the final comment I made before I walked away from somebody was the more you know the more you know you don't know. I think that was the reality of what we're looking at here but we can't be in a position where we have to wait and wait and wait to find out the unknown unknown so how much risk do we take to drive through what we do know, even though there might be gaps, and to make sure we're not waiting for the perfect answer that may never come along. I think that was a question to the three of you. Okay, if you want to respond to that one please go ahead, but in in one or two minutes. In a quick or otherwise we can wait a bit and then let's see if we can get other people to ask questions. I wonder do a Jan apichai you've been involved in this kind of issues for quite a while, being the director of the environmental division of the ASEAN, and maybe other things. What would be your reflection with regards to this particular gaps, or the discussion that we just had now. Good morning we heard. We were talking about Transboundary air pollution. I was 25 years ago I was in the hotspot as an environmental focal point in ASEAN and we have this big fire and he's in Sumatra in Kalimantan was burning. Never ending because it wasn't any new year. Okay. And so that caused us in to come up with a subsequently an agreement on Transboundary air pollution. So today it's actually 20 and not today, but this year is actually the 20th anniversary of that agreement. So we have the agreement, but somehow the problem is still remains. So, maybe some of the issues are known. Why it is not being able to be implemented, whereas others are yet to be discovered. Why is the, or is there something wrong with ASEAN. That many people asked about that. But I think maybe one of the things that perhaps we can try to take away is that, you know, the Singapore has this Nanyang technological university. And they have a what they call a Rajaratnam School of International Studies. And their motto is ponder the improbable. That it was, you know, right, you need to think or imagine creatively, of course, like what John is saying with scientific, you know, evidence and everything. But to credible or somebody was saying what's critical speculation, right. And I think your example of the Australian energy expert doing that is a clear example. So you have to sort of think beyond. Like, for example, we know about like a tsunami. Well, talking about Fukushima tsunami hit 2011. Right. But we have in our region also tsunami hitting in 2004. Right. But can you imagine a tsunami in the Mekong. Think about it. What could be the possible, you know, causative of any tsunami in the Mekong. But I have thought about it. I've written about it. And basically is even major earthquake strikes one of the big dams in China. Okay, the dam base. And all of a sudden the whole water gushes down. Do you think any of the subsequent dams would be able to pull back that amount of volume water at that speed and that, you know, that energy. Probably not. So you have a domino effect down the Mekong. Downstream, like wherever, you know, Southeast Asian countries are Mekong countries. Okay, something like that. Thank you. Thanks for the very good example of credible speculations. Any other comments or questions. If not, can I return now to our panel. Okay. Richard, please go ahead. I would like to take a stab at the first question but before I do so I had a question for john, which is when you say credible speculation credible by whose standards right because thinking about the different quadrants and what constitutes acceptable or known knowns or known unknowns or unknown knowns. It has to be determined by someone. And who is that someone I suppose what I'm pointing to is just, even when it comes to the question that you'd asked about pushing boundaries and not just, you know, waiting around twiddling our thumbs and actually doing something I agree that's incredibly important. But at the same time, going back to your point, Albert, we have to of course be very mindful and wary of our own biases, our own subjectivities because you might actually just be aggravating a problem as opposed to actually finding a solution. And I suppose part of the challenge with these four quadrants is that they focus more on the gaps as opposed to the solutions. So what are the known knowns when it comes to solutions that have actually worked based on multi stakeholder consultations, not just one agency or one individual, what are the known unknowns then. So I guess to me, you know, in my other role, I recently conducted a country mission as part of a UN delegation to Japan. And part of our mission we also looked at the case of the Fukushima nuclear disaster and the release of the treated water into the Pacific. And what really struck me there was that, of course, the Japanese government was saying, we have scientific evidence that's also being, you know, proved and all that by other reputable agencies saying that there will be no direct consequences on ecosystems in the Pacific. But of course, if you ask the Fisher folk if you ask the people living in the vicinity who have faced firsthand the impacts of the disaster they will say, we don't really believe the government on this, in this situation. So, whose knowledge matters. I guess the question I'll throw back to all of you. So thank you for the question as they say on the TV. All right. I don't mean sort of completely unfounded speculation. I don't mean noise. We've got a referendum coming up in Australia in a few weeks. And there's so much noise and not credible speculation. So credible speculation. Martin Green at University of New South Wales, you know, knows a little bit about solar cells. So when he starts speculating about what might be the next generation of solar cells, then I'm interested. You know, so I do believe that there is still judgment that has to be taken into account. But I think we should listen to ideas and then see if the person that is putting them forward, they or their colleagues can can start to back it up and test it a little bit. That's all. Thank you. Anything to add on this conversation with regards to particularly among the organizations that you're working on the ground. Is there a grassroots perspective with regards to how we understand all of these issues. Probably, I would just pin out one of the evidence enhancing effective civil society knowledge because I think it's really one of the crucial issues and the gap that we are facing at the moment because regarding to the knowledge of documentation, the information that are available or exist. Community people experience the community level but we, we haven't actually put much effort to produce those evidence based study to do advocacy activity at the national level or regional level so I think it's one of the important thing and based on our experience because when this way we work with community based organization and a lot of them are the vulnerable groups that affected by those issues. We form dams provide capacity building to them to be able to do action based research. But most of those research is actually doing advocacy dialogue with the sub national authority level. And it's, it's been aware that is the issues affected them, but we haven't had the community voice. It's been heard at the national and also regional level I think it's important for us, all of us here would bring out some of the affected community voice to be heard and also to actually find it the solution to actually respond to them and part of the awareness as well. Thank you. It's interesting because with regards to issues about inclusion and participation is not something that's totally unknown right it's very much known. And we've had to have a number of opportunities to discuss about these issues and yet it seems the solutions are really quite complicated to address right. Super in in the work that you do at MRC to what extent credible speculation is something that you engage at MRC. I think the problem that happened is that we can see some of the reaction or feedback from the community level, which is some some some time, most of the time they experienced what is happening for example in in the upper part of the river they experienced the low flow they experienced the the impact for for their livelihood used to the chain of the rapid flow etc. So, so we for for us we do some some some study we we try to explain and try to find out the root cause, but but sometimes there is some discrepancy the differences between what we scientifically try to prove and what what the community themselves experience at the community level. So this discrepancy that we need to try to further work in in terms of trying to inform them and also work with them to explore their experience in order to translate it into the the study as well as the policy that we we need to tackle. So so so that is all the work that we need to do for that. Okay, thank you very much. I wonder again with our participants do you have anything to add. Yes, can we have a microphone for generate please. Okay, just very good so our participants online as well if there are comments or questions will be happy to read them. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you very much. I have two questions. One is about no known. And the other one is about, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know whatever. That's very confusing. But yeah, my, my colleagues, not my friend as a period talk about difficulties in bringing all different stakeholders to talk together in coordinated manner, especially in trying to understand the next issues of water and climate energy issues. So, my question is, what what have you known about effective approaches in bringing the different stakeholders together to come to the same table. To have a coordinated discussion about the nexus that we are discussing. And the other question, what have we not known why it's difficulty, you know why why it's difficult to bring, you know, the different stakeholders at various levels, communities can make especially the private sector dam operators upstream to come to talk to share information and data in coordinated way. Thank you. I will respond to that question. Yeah, I will try. I'm pretty sure that the panel can also supplement as well. So I think for in terms of what way that we can do to ensure this different stakeholder engage. I think this this kind of form of dialogue and consultation is still valid, meaning that we can, we can still continues promoting this kind of dialogue engagement and evidence raisings. But on top of this, maybe after, like kind of meeting and sharing, what we can do more is to keep engage on to ensure we have a platform where, where idea can flow where idea can exchange, especially report and study, concrete report and study can be stored and share somewhere. So I think that is additional. And what constrain us from from having a good in and meaningful engagement. We know already that we work by, by, by framework we work by law and regulation, and also agenda driven. So some, I think sometimes this is the difficulty that we face. For example, for us we work with a lot of support with the government but when it down to the consultation we for sure need to work with the government to ensure what is the right participation in line with the, with the national law and regulation. So sometimes this, this, this kind of constraint that we need to also be supplement or recollect, recollect by, by, by working with other organization or stakeholder as well. So we, we need to what I'm trying to say is, we need to, to reach out and work with other whose have the expertise and maybe the limit can be overcome our limitation. I see that John you've jetted some notes but their own first if you want to go and respond to that question. Thank you. About what known is what is known is known, probably I cannot answer to that much to the moderator can explain but it's about the gap that we aware and we have evidence for and regarding to your questions about. Is there any best lesson learned we can learn from the best coordination effective coordination among different stakeholder. For me, I don't, I don't have any experience seeing effective coordination with different stakeholder yet into the issue because like, as Bong has mentioned earlier, it's a really cross cutting, but it's really constrained to having all of different stakeholder come to discuss and consult because it's lack of two reason, one probably about the technical resources, because in each different department and institutions, they have their own agenda and priority. And when it comes to this particular issue does the organization or institution have their technical resource. The second is about funding financial resources. Does they put much effort into a located budget to focus on these issues. So I think all of this is a constraint. But I haven't come across any good experience that we could share with you that some of the places that have been successfully coordinated in one particular issues. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. I'm happy to get lost. Yeah. There may be no more time. I, one of the best jobs I was ever involved in was when I was working with ICN quite a long time ago. And the, the, the frame was sort of negotiate and reaching agreements over water and it wasn't looking for gaps or things that have gone wrong. So we put the word out for across the globe, who thought they'd been involved in a high quality, high quality multi stakeholder process, and then invited them to sort of tell their story about it. And we ended up, I can get them for you got about 50 sort of good stories from around the world of real processes. So one was in Nepal. Nepal had a dams and development dialogue. It was around the time of the World Commission on dams. Very hot issue in Nepal. And so 18 months out, a whole, you know, a few pretty creative actors. And some of them, you know, actually a ditch it and Deepak Iwali and others. They had it a good process that government liked the developers like the banks like the NGOs like where they all learned about the options for Nepal. And they all felt sort of respected in the process. And they all then made a bit of a joint input to the World Commission on dams, you know, but so it's just a very heartening if you look for the good and you look for processes that many people in those processes have found pretty rewarding and worth their time. Last quick comment. A couple of great posts. Well, a couple of significant Mekong processes, the strategic environmental assessment, which reported in 2010. And then the MSE Council study. Pretty decent process whilst preparing the report. But then as soon as reports were finished, boom, end, end of the deliberative process. There was no then, you know, learning, reflecting sort of still going on with the time. And I thought that that was a shame for the effort that had been put into decent bodies of work, not perfect. But the deliberative process stopped when it was probably should have just been kept going for a while. I hope the proactive regional planning, Mr. Sovereign, that it's not just feed the model, write the scenarios, finish the report done, but that you get that phase two space to actually test it a bit more. Thanks. Yeah, quick response to that one, Mr. Shepprin. Maybe it's too, too, how to say, it doesn't really stop there. It doesn't really seem like we produce it and I mean the council study and also the assessment, it doesn't mean that we we we try a lot of effort and resource to produce it and stop there. It's still been a review in terms of the study and the product itself and it will, it will still be useful for the ongoing study and assessment that we are still working. And also, the product that we are the project that we are still working on the pro regional proactive regional planning, we will still use some of the product that we, we did early as well. Okay, so I sustained an inclusive action to follow up on all those knowledge product it seems to be is what's needed at the moment. There is an online question. Am I correct. Can we show our online participant and if that person could just jump in and ask the question. Okay. Is our online colleague ready to ask the question now, or has the question been written. Okay, can someone ask the question, August. Can you ask the question. Okay, the question is from Kevin Lee. I am wondering if we should address the issue of this information slash misinformation when we are going to engage with think tanks or build up thought leadership on water energy climate nexus of knowledge in the making region. Anyone who from from the panel who would like to attempt to respond to that question. Benjamin go ahead. Hello Kevin. That's a great question I mean I feel like it also segues into a lot of what we've been talking about which is what constitutes credible speculation what constitutes credible knowledge. How do we go about ascertaining that and it also speaks to I think the point about the importance of multi stakeholder engagement as well. There's one of the values of multi stakeholder engagement lies in the fact that you can actually verify information that way right it's about I think john you made the point about what was it the replicability of the information and the speculation. The replicability thank you so I mean this is basically part of the scientific methods right and I feel like when it comes to handling questions around disinformation misinformation it is important that you of course verify the information triangulate it. Right and ensure that there is that repeatability process involved in knowledge creation. And so, I would think that you know going to your question Kevin about whether people need to be mindful I think yes I think we with engaging with any actor, we have to be mindful of misinformation disinformation risks, and we have to be constantly assessing the knowledge that they are putting out and, and trying to be as objective as possible. Thanks. I'm not entirely sure that answered his question 100% I think it does somehow. But if you have something to add on that one if you can just keep it for now because we have a question from the floor, Aaron go ahead. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for this great panel and all the discussion I a little bit related to the last question. And the first time I say I really like the title of this session, because you call it mind the gaps and I thought mind the gaps you can be two things it's, let's think about where the gaps are. And we've been doing that but, but also don't step into the gap there's a gap between the land, the station and the train and don't fall into that gap and I, and I think that researchers in this room and and different organizations that are working with knowledge and trying to to work towards development goals. They have to do both. And I think in my own experience in this region and actually meeting many of the researchers in this room. I know there are a lot of gaps that researchers have to be careful not to fall into. And, and that is, there are certain questions that they avoid asking, and there are certain, there are groups of people that are stakeholders that that it's not easy to first of all get access to and if one gets access to them it's difficult to share their, their knowledge and in their research reporting. I think that we all know this from different experiences and we can if we want to add one more thing it's that there is a lot of information out there that the researchers in this room can't access. It might just be because there's a cost tied to it. We saw that just a few months ago visiting a project where where there was a lot of information but but it wasn't accessible, and it had to be bought and it was going to be costly. So there are a lot of reasons why information is missing and why it can also be difficult to share information. I think this is the way it is, and the kind of change that you've been discussing that you're aiming for with these kinds of alliances is a really kind of a transformational change because we know that the, the progress as you made the point in the morning session that that the trajectory of development in the region is growth but at the expense of equality and environmental sustainability. And, and this is also well documented. So my question is, I mean, what can a regional network or regional alliance, what kinds of what kind of partnership can one put together that can try to expand which gaps it's possible to investigate and which gaps and to also narrow those dangerous gaps to make more space for your investigations and I, I'm kind of curious to hear some reflections on like, what would an alliance or a network need, what kinds of partners doesn't need, in order to just expand that space a little bit, because I think we can't really eliminate it, but, you know, yeah, that's a thanks very well said. Erin, before I ask the panel to respond to that one. Is there anyone from the floor who would like to respond to that questions or reflect further. What kind of platform should we have to be able to respond to these gaps. Okay, maybe it's just a private conversation I think I did not die. Let's not force. We can share it later but any anyone else who would like to take on that point and share what you were thinking. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you very much. Actually, I would like to share some key points. It's really important that we are networking, especially when we are working with the project or any certain things that we decide, because we are the level of the decision maker. And making and develop a very good initiative plan of action. But my observation, I would like to share that if I may, from our experiences, first of all, we should think about the participatory approach, because when we try to throw something to the people and encourage them to follow us, we should seek for the participatory approach first. And secondly, we are asking for the accountability, because we are networking, not only we are receiving or recipient, but or just keeping on that they said no. So accountability is really important right now. And plus the economic nowadays is required for all of us to do a really comprehensive project proposal. And the next one is, I think, is a collaboration between the environmentalists and also decision making. This morning, our friends from Thailand already state some key message that people who are doing the planning, but they don't know how to do a really good technologies or environment, knowledge or whatever and et cetera. And the next point is management tool is supposed to be really clearly management is not only for the project management, but how to make is a really outstanding and effectiveness for all that easy for us to do the assessment. And I do think is the next point is an indicator, indicate a significant advice impacts on environment. So in the Mekong Legion, what the energy climate change, we do have three things together, but three is similar, but not the same. The climate change and disaster not the same idea. Therefore, when we are doing the planning carefully, climate change, disaster, not the same, right. Therefore, and then talking about the water is another things and energy as well. So we sometimes somehow we can connect to each other, but not on subjects. Therefore, this is a really important for us, because we are the person who are playing a really crucial role in development of the proposal or planning to let other people to follow us. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, as a way to wrap up our discussions. How do you reflect on this two points. So maybe I wonder if, if each of you could have a minute or two to respond so Mr. Supreme go ahead first. Thanks a lot, but and I'm so saying to Aaron as well. I think we are visiting here we know that there are a lot of forum, there are a lot of consultation, there are a lot of networks, CSO network and also for the MOC we organize the annual regional consultation forum where we engage a lot of stakeholders as well. But still, GAPs is still there, still discussing. So I think the best point, the best is we still continue to work in terms of team up the different network, the different group. And then let the researcher be in one group and also the MOC continue our regional stakeholder forum, they summon it, continue and also empty, continue. But at one point we need to sit together, the big network sit together and then map out together. So with how we can make sure that all the study or the research can can put in one place and share and share it and it make it easy to access by everyone. Okay, so how to enable effective sharing of information that you already have is an important point that you're making Mr. Supreme. Go ahead. I think I'd like to echo what you were saying as well and this is going to sound ever so slightly self serving. Because I think this session that you have the people that you have speaking here and you can remove me from the equation if you like and just replace me with a random academic. This panel represents the polarity of ideas that we want to see in any Alliance in any platform that would allow us to actually critically interrogate those gaps that need to be expanded as you said and addressed. And those gaps that we want to kind of not really step into right so I think it's these types of exchanges that we need and we need to not be afraid of disagreeing with one another, because that is how we get progress. We also need to know how different stakeholders in the room again who don't always see eye to eye. So I feel like, you know, I'm looking at the, the sign up here that says Macklin regional water energy and climate Alliance meeting. And I think when we think about Alliance we often think like minded, but that's not necessarily the case, because ultimately we might be working towards the same goals, and we might have very different ideas of how to arrive at that goal. And it's useful to have those discussions to see where convergences might occur but also to better understand why things aren't happening, you know, with the MRC for instance not to spotlight you but you know or or at the local level. And then to really have those dialogues so to me I think it's the polarity ideas and again not fearing to actually dissent or disagree. Thank you. I wouldn't have much to say. I totally agree with what the two speaker has highlight the things that I still want to say is technical resources that are important for different stakeholders should be because we had a lot of research fellow here who I spurred in doing research and having all the information how we place this resources into those institution and organization that are limited capacity in finding information and resources. And secondly, it's about multi stakeholder consultative probably meeting or a platform or technology platform where you store all the information that are trustworthy and it could actually translate it into the local language so we can use at the local level as well. Thank you. Thank you. And finally, John. Thanks Albert. So, just one thing, going back to Kevin if he's still online. He was asking about information disinformation and sort of he had that cloudy question mark sort of towards think tanks. I think that think tanks is a little bit of a loaded concept. And a lot of the organizations he wouldn't describe themselves as a think tank. So, you know, that's just a descriptive name, but the, the think tanks the reason it's loaded is a lot of think tanks have a particular ideology, you know attached to them. You know, so we look at different political philosophies that sort of influence everything that they do. But so back to the Alliance there. So, yeah, what is the next generation sort of constructive Alliance, you know in in the discussion here. What are its values. Right, so it's not a matter of yes we want to be an Alliance but what are the things that the members of the Alliance might agree to sort of share. We will share respect for different types of knowledge. We will share respect for a quality of voice you know you can have a bit of a charter and very different people can end up sort of saying yeah I'm happy to be part of that Alliance. But you do have to agree with those core values a little bit. I'm not sure can't remember what the summon it charter is values. What you're thinking about whether it's due for an update, whatever don't know a few of us were involved in something previously and power, it had a very simple charter it was trying to democratize water governance full stop. And it was trying to do that by transparency and improving understanding between the countries of the macro region, sort of full stop, you know, and if you're if you could say tick tick tick we're interested in those three. You're in, you know, so I wonder for the Alliance we had a bit of a chat on the phone, halfway through last year I think China's and Louis or someone said you know what would be the values of such an Alliance. I think that's worth thinking about rather than just saying yes there's an Alliance. Yes it's a next generation funding opportunity. You know what is it. Would we all like to be part of it. And if so what would be the values that we would happily sort of share. Thanks. Thank you very much john so what you're saying is that we need to have a common vision but not only common but also shared across everyone in the region. Yeah but the common vision might not be the common vision of what the region should be more the common, more the set of values that you know yes if I join this guiding principles thank you very much pitch one. You know, what are the guiding principles that you know would be acceptable to this this floor of people thanks. Let's take note of that guiding principles. With that, I'd like to thank our panels for very insightful contribution for agreeing to contribute to our discussions maybe no matter how limiting the quadrants would be but I hope the quadrants is useful so by no means it's not a celebration of the panel, but he was just and he gave me an idea that this could be useful to, to frame our conversation. So with that, a big round of applause to our panel.