 Podcasters round table round 115. That's a lot of fingers Dave. I can't make that many fingers So I'll just do it in multiples of five and sit here all day long. Anyways Are there too many podcasts something like that? I think that's the title that is that sort of I think is the gist of one Of the articles we're gonna talk about but let's meet them round table. We have a lot of articles news all kinds of good stuff Dave co-host welcome back bud Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting.com ready to Talk some news and all sorts of fun. We have some interesting topics tonight. I'm looking forward to it All right, and new round table or Josh welcome to the round table. Thank you ray It's Josh from the corner cutter podcast Com it's a weekly show all about speed cubing which is solving the Rubik's Cube Which is my other hobby besides podcasting. That's cool. So I have to ask It's actually a great podcast as an example because I think your story is the one we're talking about are there too many podcasts And it's about oversaturation and you're gonna help us through that story a little bit But I'm curious how many other speed cubing podcasts are there. Do you know? great question earlier this year, maybe February or March. I was the only speed cubing podcast in Apple podcasts But since then two or three others have popped up But it there is not very They're not very consistent. So is there like a speed cubing different than just like Rubik's Cube? You know what I mean? Like I don't even know what it is exactly well speed cubing is Can like more competitive than just I mean it's all about the Rubik's Cube my show and all the other shows But there is competitions and stuff like that. So it's really there isn't any branches in this niche Dave are you just surprised that there is a podcast about the Rubik's Cube something that we That's that's ours like when we were kids It's still around like Josh is way too young to have been around for the inception I remember that coming out and being completely frustrated and switching the stickers. Well, I love the fact That's the whole thing. It's like I love the fact that there are people solving it in record time And I'm like going I'm still working on solve number one Yeah, no, I just broke apart the square and just put the Alright now I can put it back Wait, I have to ask Josh. So then what is your record? Yeah um Personal PB at home is 8.99. I'm gonna assume. That's amazing. That's amazing to me when I what no You're going from a guy who I average about 13 or 14 seconds. I because at first. I thought maybe it's ours I'm like maybe minute Yeah, I Clarified that Wow, there's a big divide. That's amazing. Well, that's cool. Hey, well, let's lead us into this first story What what's going on here? This is where I got the title from it says what is the? Let's see. What's the title? This is even my grandma has a pot even now mm-hmm, so He's talking about is if the podcasting market is over saturated So a few of the things he said is how do we keep up as a listener with so many podcasts? He's subscribed to 30 podcasts and he listens to them on a weekly basic Basis I would say I'm the same Subscribed to about 30 But how if there's so many podcasts, how do you keep up as a listener? Isn't the pool just overflowing at this point? And He hears from people almost every day that he knows that those starting podcasts, so it's just exploding He so Question is why is everyone working on a podcast for some it's just for fun and But lots of businesses are taking this as well So In and then his final question is is so is it worth a podcast to is it worth? Starting a podcast right now. I would say some niches or niches aren't being filled Like the speed speed cubing one. We were just talking about a minute ago I think this guy Well, he has too many interests like I mean here's the thing when I started a podcast and I'm sure most people are the same I had probably like 70 podcasts in my podcatcher. I certainly didn't listen to that but as you Discover podcasts you start going through and just typing stuff in or iTunes used to be great about If they're listening to this you're so the other people listening to this and I would just subscribe subscribe subscribe And then you weed it out by listening You're like, oh, I really listen to this and then you find the ones you really like but Dave How many now that number for me? I would say in my app right now. There's probably Maybe like 12 to 15 Phone Dave, that's I have 102 episodes waiting for me to listen But how many podcasts do you subscribe to? It's I would one two three Over 40 so in half of those are about podcasting. I mean it's it just goes on and then I have some marketing stuff I have some music stuff. I have some church stuff Well, you have a lot of interest so there's a lot of opportunity for you to listen to a lot of podcasts But are there too many podcasts? Do you feel like there are too many? I don't even know what that means really like well for me the thing that I see Working at lips and as I have people that will email me and they're like look I do a show I remember one guy he was doing a faith kind of show and he called it the disciple and I was like You know when you type in disciple in the iTunes You're gonna get a list of 8 million podcasts because everybody is like, you know, the whatever Green tree Hills Baptist Church for disciples I'm like you're you know, you've got a keyword there that everybody's trying to get on or golf podcasts Real estate podcast because everybody puts real estate in the name So when people go to iTunes or Apple podcasts, they type in real estate, you know, it comes up My favorite is we just did right before we hit record. There are eight shows With with the title outside the box, which means those people are not thinking outside the box when it comes to their name So it sounds like two issues here. It sounds like They're you've brought up a second issue I think the first issue that this guy is writing about is that as a consumer There's too much choice, which is you know, I don't know if that's a problem I wouldn't say it's a problem But the second thing you're you're bringing up which is actually more relevant to this audience as podcast producers Is that there is so much even in a lot of the different niches that you are gonna have a hard time sort of Showing up right when people are searching and you need to be a little bit, you know A little bit more creative about how you surface your show There's news on that too as well, which is interesting as far as Apple is concerned. We'll talk about that but so Dave You know as a listener Do you feel I mean we always you always hear about discovery and that I can't find What I want it's relevant to me. I mean, where's the breakdown here? I don't think that's a problem I mean, let's go back to to the days of Ray the produce picker if I go into Ray's grocery store And he's got a whole bunch of cantaloupes say there's 50 of them, but I only need one Okay, so I go to Ray and he thumps one for me goes here. Here's a good one But I mean I've got what I want there's 49 left for other people Is that too many because I'm fine. I got my cantaloupe. I'm good your impulse control to buy 48 cantaloupes right has been you're okay with that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I get it There's a lot of stuff out there And again, once you discover how cool podcasts are you just start clicking on others to subscribe to but and there's only so much Time in a day, but I think we are far from Oversaturated I mean look at the number of blogs This is a stat that gets thrown out all the time right the number of blogs is in the millions Whereas podcasts are in the hundreds of thousands unless you're Google and then you tell us it's 2 million. That's not accurate Sorry Google, but um, you know, I don't know though. What do you what do you think? Coming from lips and where do you think the number hovers around active podcast not I mean it? You know what I guess in this case it doesn't matter if it's active or not It's just available. Yeah in this in the directories. So where do you think that is just available podcasts? What do you how many podcasts do you think Apple has in their directories since I would say it? Because they quoted what 550 so I would say at least 300 right that's active though. I mean they're saying active I mean at this point it's just about choice. I mean the end user only sees how many are there So it could be like 500,000, but we're still like a fraction a quarter of what it might not even be a quarter It's probably a small fraction percentage of what blogs are right and people still start blogs I mean, that's not a problem. So yeah, I think we have a long way to go I mean, I think we're seeing a lot more podcasts can be created. I know Rob Greenley is always talking about The what we need is more listeners. Yeah, right? We had we're seeing more podcasts started and not enough listeners coming into the space to sort of fill up Yeah, I just had to look at it Let me jump in here. I'll let you go in a second here Josh but I just reviewed the Edison research and Weekly listeners are still at 17% So we have 83% of America, you know and the world I guess I think that study was just America To get on board. So Josh, what were you gonna say? Uh, I just like way what you're saying a little bit earlier niches aren't being filled in Oh certain pot podcasts aren't filling certain niches like podcasts about podcasting or business or you mentioned real estate there's tons of podcast podcasts coming out All the time about those and it's just over saturated but niches like speed cubing or other small hobbies or Maybe new things that come out new technology or stuff like that Really doesn't have That many podcasts podcasts in it And then a lot of my favorite shows aren't coming from You're breaking up a lot but a lot of my favorite shows aren't coming from large networks or People that are podcasting for their business. It's small podcasters like emily pro cop or I listened to quite a other few all shows that and Those tend to be some of my favorite podcasts Well, Ray you you made a josh chopped your bandwidth a little bit. It's just that's it's your side And ray you made a great point about like if you create a website in google Right, right. So this is actually this is good. Remember exactly what you're saying is I interrupt That's I'm trying to toss it to you without going ray repeat what you just said five minutes ago Well, no, so we're making this valuable to people who are watching this Who may be thinking about starting a podcast they see an overcrowded niche and they are wondering should I do this What can we talk what can we say to people who or even people who are in A niche that has a lot of other podcasts in it. How do we as producers work around this, right? I mean, we are in the podcast about podcasting Category and there's several of us one way we surface this show is david and daniel or both on this show And you guys periodically mentioned on your own shows and we work together to gather the audience, right? So what about producers of other shows? I mean working together is one way to help grow and expose your show. I think Yeah, absolutely. I always tell people don't don't go the howard stern route Where you know, I'm going to kill my competition and this and that it's uh, I get people all the time They're like, oh, I heard you on the round table. I decided to come over and check you out. So Yeah, what are we going to say about the point about google like so you build a website Oh, we were just saying that that if if I started a website, let's say there was no podcasting and I started a blog It's it would be somewhat Silly for me to go man. I've been doing this pot this blog for a month and you know, I'm still not ranking at the top of google Well, hello, you've got two Brazilian other blogs that are fighting for that same keyword And yet I think people start a podcast and they call it You know golfing better or whatever. I'm just making that up and then they wonder why they're not at the top of every, you know I typed in golf. It's not showing up in apple podcast. Well, because there are eight million other shows about golfing better So what's the way to surface yours? You're new you're going you're going to start a disney podcast There are there a lot right what approach do you take? For me number one make sure on your website your subscribe buttons are there with directions on what to do with them And then it's a matter of going out to where your audience is. Yes, you can You know, you hope people find you an apple podcast and in these other places, but You know, that's just very likely not going to happen because there's so many different disney podcasts So I always say don't rely on that You know make it easy to go to your website and then hopefully as you meet your audience and they find you and they start telling their friends Well, that will slowly over time You know get you up the charts to maybe hopefully you're showing up because I think if I remember our apple shows that I don't know if it's the top Or what it shows but it shows 300 in the search results So hopefully you show up in that 300 so that People can actually click on your artwork and listen, but if there's more than 300 in your number 301 Oh, well And I mean yeah, so I would say if you're not an authority in a certain niche or Or a certain area like maybe you have a large following on social media or you have a blog on let's say a disney disney shows Then it might make sense to start a podcast in that area if you're just starting In your basement with no Following or anything like that then I would probably advise not to Start a podcast in that area I would say Maybe first of all why you're doing it, right? If you just want to talk on the microphone and share your thoughts go for it It doesn't matter how people listen and people will listen You just don't care about the numbers. You don't you're not trying to get ad revenue You don't need thousands of people you just want to share cool whatever also find Out what those other podcasts are doing or not doing that you can do, right? I mean, you don't have to be an expert, but if you're a listener If you're a listener if you're okay, if you're starting a podcast about disney You likely listen to podcasts about disney and you've decided, you know what? I'm not getting x from these podcasts And start filling in x and you know, you might not be an expert on x But uh, you know, maybe that's you know the animation or something how the animation is is done Um, but go out and start researching it and then share that journey You don't have to know we just go out and find out and share what you find out every week I mean, that's kind of what I think Dave and I and Daniel all of us have done with podcasting There was no book before Dave started a podcast on podcasting. He went and learned He found there wasn't people sharing the information then he just shared what he learned and then guess what now? Dave is like super expert in podcasting, right? Well, and Daniel says that the reason he started the audacity to podcast is he was listening I think to myself and cliff, but we weren't talking about what he wanted to talk about right So he started this show that when you started it, you're like, look, I don't want this to be a how-to podcast I want to talk about the things that podcasters are facing. So it's all Yeah, it's it's the same, you know podcast about podcasting, but it's different angles of the same topic. So You know That that's just another way of looking at it. So I know a lot of people that have started They said well, I listen to other podcasts, but they weren't doing what I wanted to do And so by all means I think the the thing you just have to keep in mind is You know when you start a brand new business a not all of them are Successful b if you're just doing it for fun then do it for fun And you know, don't look at charts and everybody else's downloads because that'll just suck the life right out of you And enjoy having fun talking about what you want to talk about here's my yeah, I was just thinking that as well it depends on your intentions like I have another podcast I co-host with my older brother that one's Currently on hiatus But it's about bass fishing and that market is pretty saturated So if we're just doing it for fun And don't really care about how many listens we get or If we're not trying to make money off of it. It's you're just having a good time So you definitely should start a podcast there Yeah, and that's that's the exact kind of podcast That's actually going to go past infamous episode seven right that one's gonna last because you are having fun And you know what guess you guess what happens when you're having fun and you're just doing it From your passion money starts to follow because people start to follow you like yeah things just happen So definitely try here's super pro tip start a podcast not a restaurant That's it restaurants fail and you're out all your money and debt for life podcast Pretty easy to start doesn't cost much go for it. All right, let's get to another story. Geez people This is great. That's what I love. So I mean this show is a great example, right Dave you mentioned it Tried not to be a how-to podcast We want to learn about podcasting through other podcasters experience and then we as we cross the Century mark I changed up the format because we were approaching the same topics over and over again Which is not necessarily bad and we'll still do that here But new story a new stories that you bring to the round table podcasters round table dot com Guest if you want to do that makes it easier to bring more people on Because all you have to do is bring something that you think is interesting and we talk about it So and then we learn I mean look at this and we have josh from You know a speed cubing podcast and we get to learn about You know share his experience on something that is very very hyper niche and you can see he's practically alone in In his category. So anyways go out sign up join us here. It is now easier You don't have to be an expert on any topic. You never did before but anyways pod kite you Dave you mentioned about being found in the charts so to speak and iTunes what they surface And I'm not necessarily want to promote another brand new service that'll likely be gone in six months But what can we take away? What is this pod kite thing? Well the thing that that's making me worried about this? There were two That I recently discovered one is pod kite Kite and then the other one is chartable And both of these are basically pulling in From apis from anything from I think a stitcher and apple podcasts and this and that So like like especially chartable you can see Who the top business podcast is and what is being the top podcast business podcasts mean because I'll tell you what I I worked for a top podcast, but what does that mean? I mean, it's in I you're saying you when you say that you're saying that essentially in apple podcasts this thing is ranked Right on the rule one, but what what even determines that we need daniel here because yeah, I think it's a total number of downloads of all time That's why you have shows that haven't had episodes for years But back when they were around they got subscribers subscribes all the time. Yeah, no downloads Oh, and then and then and then subscribers over a 24 hour period So tell me this if I go to the front page of apple podcasts either my app or I go into the iTunes directory and I see Obviously different artwork. So these people are working with apple, right? How do they get up there? Why are they there and that I mean there's a lot that's a loaded question Right, but in general, why are those are is apple putting them there or they just because they have they have Influence with apple or is it because they are seeing so many downloads? Well, in in some cases apple is actually a a person is putting them there and then in other places Because they Again, probably total number of downloads all of a sudden they're looking in and they're like, whoa This show is getting a lot of attention over there or their npr or their npr and they have friends Yeah, something but for so I know some of that stuff in apple is handpicked I guess my worry is because I like all of a sudden this is now popping up Like hey, this is what people want and I'm like I don't know that it's healthy because I mean we've had reagan reagan Whatever the guy's name is reagan star dot com for a while and this is not new where you can sign up Say this is my podcast and it will email me and say hey today You're number 12 on the chart and then tomorrow I'll go today You're number 28 and then you jump out the window because you're like, oh You know it meant nothing like Those numbers meant nothing Dave. I'm still working on my cloud score I actually stole that from Jonathan in the chat and he said cloud question mark. I hated that site I despise cloud is so stupid. Yeah, I was when I was in Nashville I was helping somebody with their podcast launch and she came to she said why was number 16 yesterday And today I'm off the charts or she went down or whatever and I said First of all those charts don't mean a lot, you know, they're they're handy and they're fun And you know if you really want to show yourself as number one feel free to use photoshop because you know, what's you know You should have done you should have said hey, let's open this up and you look at your stats and see what happened yesterday And what happened today? Yeah, no difference. Yeah, it's no I mean when uh lipson had a show called thanks podcasting And it wasn't at the top of the charts. It was like when you logged into itunes It was right this was a lipson show. This is a lipson show. Yeah, I did not know that I liked it before when it was called because of my podcast, but I didn't say that out Anyway, so they had this and it was on the front page of of apple podcast and According to elsey they got maybe a couple hundred downloads A week so it wasn't the 10 000 downloads, which you would think you would get so Yeah, I mean that's the only people people there's the only reason people are concerned or care is they think It's going to change the game for their podcasts, right? Yeah, so I just when I see these come out I just go Is this a good thing because to me it's like it's like a laser pointer to a to a cat You know what I mean of like if you get too many laser pointers that cat's just going to lose its mind completely So I'm worried about people just getting obsessed on this because Contrary to popular belief looking at your stats does not make them grow and looking at charts doesn't make you go up them And instead look at your audience and connect with your audience because if you can connect with your audience Then they will tell their friends they will subscribe and that will then make you go up the chart So just I just see them and I was like, uh, I don't know why people keep making these tools But I'm I'm not anti them. It's kind of fun to like I I think I was number 18 for podcasting or something like that And I was like who I would love to know what's number one It's probably some sort of like how this is made As a producer like if you want to check you can check but don't Seriously, don't freak out about it. Don't let us ask about it, right Especially since it's apple And how apple ranks them It's not nice. It's a mix though. I think it's a mix, right Dave. Oh with this one. It's a mix between apple and google Uh, I know I think pod card has a mix Uh, then which then tells you what like like your number whatever amongst some type of average I mean, then it gets really weird anyways, let's not add our suggestion to uh To producers is to not spend too much time on this so we'll we'll cut out of it as well. Yeah. Yeah, there's uh chartable has stitcher And podcast attic breaker. That's some app. I've never even opened yet pocketcast um And then you get into apple podcast from every country the list goes on forever and I'm just like Oh, people are just gonna it's to me that just instead of chartable.com. It should be rabbit hole.com because So, yeah, I'm trying to pull that's I'm gonna yank us out of that whole day. I'm gonna get you. I'm saving you. I'm pulling you out All right, buddy. Look at your stats. Hey this Alexa briefing. So this was Tina's story. She couldn't join us She will be on another round table, but Alexa flash briefings Shorter content is king and this our target titled articles. What the heck is an Alexa flash briefing I already talked about it's funny how much time we spend talking about smart speakers lately And there's just nothing as far as podcast being consumed on them But whatever that's just an opinion but look at the first line here at least of this part Shorter content is king if you've ever wanted to start your own podcast But the idea of producing an hour long show every week seem like too much work There's no reason for that. Say hello to the one to two minute podcast. Yep Daily tips quick fights. So what is this about? Well, the the thing people need to realize there are two types of things you can get in An amazon Alexa one is the flash briefing which should be 10 minutes or less I didn't realize it could even be that long and it can only have One episode in your feed. So this usually means you end up creating a some sort of separate plan They're different companies that'll do this for you where there is so that's an amazon flash briefing The idea is that you then go into your Alexa app and say okay play john stewart Look at me play the daily show Then play the the Alexa tip and then play the two minute tip from ray ortega and then play the weather Or whatever it is. So basically the idea is you get up you say hello to what's her name in the tube And then you can say what's new that's the trigger for it and she'll start spouting your daily briefings That's the fun thing what people are doing and properly is they're submitting because it's not hard to build one You then people are submitting their podcast feed. Well, that has many more than one episodes in it And they're definitely not 10 minutes or less. So what happens then is if I come across your podcast and I go Wait, this isn't a this isn't a quick little tip and I go. Hey, uh, what's her name skip It's going to go to your next episode and I'm going to go skip again and skip again And so the next thing I'm going to do is go to my App for what's her name and take you out of my flash briefing because you don't know what a flash briefing is What you want to do is a skill an amazon skill Which again is not super hard to to make it's kind of like an app in apple world The jar is killing me. Yeah, so you can actually uh, if you have a woman in the tube Just ask her to enable the school of podcasting and you can see the alexa app, which I'm with you right now I'm getting a very very very small percentage of people listening to the school of podcasting I'm going to get so much trouble for saying that name Yeah, I know I whole blog came out and I Yeah, I keep trying to say one minute of fault because it's called an echo but they brand anyways whatever so I mean Yeah, I mean do you think this is the answer for somebody who you know this says If you if it's too much work to produce a podcast Well, here's the thing as in all podcast questions. The answer is it depends If I was doing a quick two minute joke for kids This would be awesome because my little nieces and nephews love what's her name in the tube They love to play with her because she'll sing songs all sort of so that would be cool if they could say Hey, what's her name play dave's kid joke of the day? That would be cool So I think it's going to depend on who your audience is and then if they actually have smart speakers because if your genre is Something that's not very techie, you know depending on the scenario They're not going to be going to the woman in the tube for your content Do you have dave's? Joke of the day com yet dave because I know you're gonna start that not yet I did have the I think it was called a flash podcast flash briefing or something like or flash podcast news flash Was my daily briefing. I tried one and uh, I I sent it purposely to What's her name and then I put it out on twitter and 10 to 1 I got more plays on twitter than I did I purposely kept it out of apple I just wanted to see is anybody listening in the tube and the answer was no But again, yeah, it can be it was about podcasting It's kind of after looking at how many flash briefings there actually are and There it's kind of tempting to start a daily show because there are only three to four thousand flash briefings But on the other hand, how many people are actually listening to those I mean It's way easier to access podcast. I would say get there The best thing you could have done in podcasting 12 14 years ago was start a podcast because There wasn't a lot of people there making them There wasn't a lot of people there listening to them and those shows You know became sort of the The biggest podcasts of all time I mean because you was easy to find you if you were interested in checking out what this thing called podcast was there was a few options for you And it was much easier. So hey, there's no one there now If you think people are going to show up to smart speakers. Hey star one go crazy Leah to keep in mind though, we keep saying the word daily To do a daily short podcast And that's still one of those things. Oh, yeah, it's only two minutes. Okay Well, it's going to take you 10 to make your two-minute podcast probably at least you could carve out like a Like a week of your time like a regular. I didn't like produce an hour I mean if they are jokes of the day That's not time sensitive. Like you could produce all your shows for You know six months within, you know hours of time, maybe but yeah I was trying to do one on news and it's it doesn't work. Well, if you're doing a news podcast that you want to batch Because hey on friday, here's the news we're talking about on monday. It's like it just doesn't work. Yeah All right, uh, Dave. What is this? Uh, anchor TOS this has been Highly controversial lately. I actually just stayed the heck away from this toxic subject. Well people I always thought this was interesting Is that in facebook somebody come in and say anchors great blah blah blah and then somebody will go Hey, have you read their terms? And there was one guy whose name he shall remain nameless kept saying their terms aren't any worse than facebook Now to me that's kind of like saying hey, you know what? um Dish soap is just as poisonous as tied those little tide packets So feel free to drink this dish up. It's just as poisonous. I'm like So the way you're telling me it's good is to say it's just as bad as this other thing And I'm like that is a really argument for me. And so I was like, all right, let's go look at it And there's there's two words, especially one Uh in anchors terms of service and and what I found out about this ray Nobody cares. That's the part that really gets me, but they have one term perpetual Wait, no one cares that they don't own nobody? No, they don't it seems that way You know why it's because they're just starting and I don't care now because They don't have an audience and they don't have sponsors coming after them and they don't have They don't have a lot of things. They just are happy to start people don't look forward Very often. Yeah, so but anchor has the word perpetual means if you leave We still own your stuff and then they have transferable So if I wanted to give my content to somebody else they can now are they going to But it's in there. They could if they wanted to and I looked at twitter and in facebook and Again, it's kind of weird because twitter and facebook are not media hosts. They're not and even with that They're not as bad as anchors terms of services. They're not great by any means And then when I looked at blueberry and lipson's terms of service lipson actually says you have control over the distribution of your content through the service that you use So they even say in there you have control Not us In fact, it's kind of weird now because people will sign up and they'll go like hey I uploaded my mp3 file and it's not in itunes and you're like, yeah, you have to submit it for approval And they're like, oh, I thought you did that I went no because if we did that we'd own your show So and blueberry same thing. There's nothing in there about transferring. There's nothing that's perpetual It's you own your content. So It's just one of the things where people love to throw that out Well, it's not any worse than facebook or twitter. Well, I'm like, uh, okay Let's do the research and the answer is yeah It is worse than facebook and twitter and lipson and blueberry They do things that other people don't and the thing that's just I'm finding That I just have to live with and I kind of feel like, you know, the old crony here These young kids just don't care, you know, and I guess it's part of what you were saying Ray It's like, ah, I'm just going to start here. But now I had uh, I think it was Todd said today That people are starting a show on on anchor and then they'll be like, oh, you know what? I'm going to actually do one for real now and they'll start their show on blueberry or lipson or spreeker Whatever and they'll use the same name and now because anchor submits your show to apple For you. He said putting up air quotes You now have your show in there twice once under anchor and once under Your own thing and it's a big old mess. That's the other thing. I I don't get why people I just talked about how people are obsessive over stats And yet they don't care that anchor controls Their stats and podcast connect that that's the one that really blows me away I can understand where people like a perpetual pershmepsial who cares But when I say, yeah, but you can't check your stats and podcasts connect that people go Hey, all right, whatever I can always work around it or whatever so Yeah, and for me, yeah, that if fine, if you know if you're if you're aware of it and don't care then that's on you That's that's fine. And I think like you said, I mean one good thing if people if it gets people started to end Then those a certain segment of people say, oh, I really I really do want to keep doing this and I understand now That I would like control over the stuff that I create Or I would like ownership then they move on they progress to a more robust Service that puts it more into their hands. So, I mean, that's fine. I mean, yeah, if you know And don't care I don't either. Well, well bangs. Yeah Good Oh, the two speed cubing podcasts that recently started They both are hosted on anchor. So it's like, ah Which is funny because you said speed cubing podcasts don't bandwidth Yeah, it's funny because you said that you were alone for a long time and Then all of a sudden some others popped up. So somebody who wanted to also participate in speed cubing and Having a voice Did start so I mean there is something interesting to be said there right and and then I contacted oh when it first came out, they started on sound cloud And then they stopped uploading episodes. So I emailed them and asked why and they said they ran out of room on sound cloud Of course, so you ran out of free. I Taught I told them about speaker and lip synced and stuff, but They didn't want to pay and then he said oh, I found this new one called anchor. Yeah, it's free I'm doing this. Yeah, I advise him not to but Yeah, I mean, well, here's the thing Dave Daniel. They welcome Daniel down J. Lewis. Thank you. All right. Sounds good. Hey, um Let me tell us this to you Daniel if If free is the only way If it is the only way that you actually get your content out there, is it bad? No, I think that When we all start out we're looking for how to do things for free. Hey, I'm the guy Who yeah as a bachelor I walked around to my female co-workers asking this super awkward question. Do you have any pantyhose That for some reason you can't use anymore that I can use to make my own pop filter Because I was you know got the wire here come online ever Yeah, it was very very awkward But I was doing things for free. That's how I got started and I think in a lot of industries people Start out just bootstrapping it Just trying to do what they can maybe they're not even sure if this is something they really want to do and and for that reason I think that tools like anchor or others can be a nice stepping stone What concerns me though is more of seen podcasters Jump over to it from whatever Yeah, that's deserving And the thing about talking about the terms of service that really concerned me and I think should concern other podcasters Is not only the rights that you're giving anchor But the rights that you're giving other podcasters on anchor And I'm just waiting for someone to take advantage of all of the rights that they have as a fellow anchor user And completely copy someone else's content because when you upload content to anchor You're giving other anchor users the rights to Repurpose it redistribute it copy it manipulate it certain thing. I forget their exact language But you're giving other users that rights and that I think should concern podcasters more than anything else Is it like a creative comments type thing or because that that actually was I think very helpful to the web where you could You could you could offer your content That'd be used by other people as long as you got credit and it sort of built Content for other people and you and exposure and all that stuff and I I love creative commons But is this like that or is it just straight up? Could I just could I just be the audacity to podcast? Right, if you we were both on anchor or creative commons just to clarify that creative commons is A set of licenses that you can use and there are different kinds of creative commons licensed So just because something is licensed with creative commons doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it as long as you Give attribution right there are licenses that say no commercial use no remixing Some say you don't have to give attribution some say you do have to give attribution So just saying and the creator gets to control these things. It's important Yeah, so that's why you don't or you shouldn't be seeing that it's simply creative commons That's creative commons this this this this this like this drain of code that mean exactly that what this is an anchor Basically, yes, so basically you are giving others the right to remix To make derivative Works from your content and some people would say well that's to allow for your audience to send you feedback But the terms don't clarify what that I mean don't distinguish user content It simply says user content is basically whatever you upload into anchor. So that's whether you're an audience member or a creator So that's what I'm could I just straight steal your show? Or do I or does it have to be like a fair use type thing where I'm using a piece of it in the context of my own show? that's the the tricky thing is That the terms of service That you are agreeing to when you upload content to anchor you are basically allowing any other anchor user to steal your show Even if you say it's copyrighted You are you as the creator the owner of the right given up that copyright. Yeah the license to others To use edit modify including the right to create derivative works of aggregate reproduce distribute prepare derivative works of display and perform the user content in connection With the operation of the services the promotion advertising or marketing of the services or the operation of anchors Enix successors and affiliates businesses in other words It's yours forever take it even if I'm dead someone's going to monetize someone else's content And they're going to be really upset about it. So I mean, you know this got Super heated recently and I stayed away from that because that was fun just pass but um You know that I think the problem with a lot of commentary on this is that a lot of people Don't know everything um, you know, some people are Saying good things for reasons that are I don't know it just I don't I don't feel like Everyone knows everything going on. I think there's some black hat stuff going on and people aren't aware of and this just it's a mess I mean they've created a mess, but Yeah, you know, we've heard they're trying to disrupt The system right they're coming in as a disruptor and You know, I there are good things and there are bad things obviously I think for us here the key is really as a public service announcement Be aware of what you're getting into if you're if you're attracted by free, which a lot of podcasters are because it's hobby and you're on a budget Just know what you're getting into then make the decision you want to make but it is important for us to hopefully tell producers What's going on make you aware and then you get to make all your own decisions And remember that an anchor weighs you down and stops you from moving forward. Oh burn burn, let's just leave it right there this is like a Concrete shoes Dave just gave us Straight to the bottom. All right I'm gonna just yeah, thank you about when I started podcasting Thank you about when I started podcasting in 2014 I would have loved and A service like anchor. I mean, I wouldn't have known anything Any other terms of service or anything but getting to host a podcast for free I should have been so nice because I started with buzz sprout, which plays your episodes after 90 days I was only 13 so It I was like didn't want to spend any money at all right, and I can see how it Lots of people jump right to it. Hey, josh lower your balance a little bit but so you keep up with us in real time but and it doesn't get choppy but There's a good point there and josh just said he was 13 years old I mean it got a segment into podcasting that we don't necessarily see right. I mean kids who don't have Money, so I mean, you know College junior when it doesn't have the money and the thing is perspective is such a it's such a weird thing I started for free too I was on I found blip.tv and I was like this is gonna work And then I found out the reasons why I didn't want to be there and I started paying but To get started most podcasters who are I would say probably the type that would watch this show They are going to see a free option as the way to get started so I mean I don't know the thing is I think anyone who starts that way and then realizes What? podcasting Will I don't know how to say it right, but once they realize What a podcast is and it wanted to be theirs. I don't know help me out here I'm fumbling on what to say here, but you you quickly understand why maybe you want To invest in your show a little bit and pay for the most thing maybe not maybe never Maybe you never get there, but and that doesn't matter, but Yeah, maybe that was Go ahead josh That was exactly me. Maybe about a almost exactly a year ago I Wanted to keep all my episodes hosted so I Was getting enough listeners and like episode feedback to Be willing to spend the money to upgrade to a paid plan And I'm really happy I did that now Yeah, when your listeners start telling you hey, I'm having I like your show, but it's difficult to listen to In the case of blip the download speeds. This is back in the day, Dave Back in the day Exactly back in the day when you you downloaded all your stuff through iTunes While you were at home so that you could put on your ipod and leave your house So but downloads would take forever and the price of free was really slow servers And that was affecting the audience experience. So I said, all right, I better check out lips Anyways, we're supposed to leave this subject. We're done with you anchor for now Know what you're getting into. That's all we ask. All right Are we promoting them too much? No, not at all. Is this helping I think I had somebody ask are we beating them up too much? And I said, you know, there are other Media hosts out there besides lips in a blueberry spree. There's a ton But a they're not doing Shabby tricks. They're not They're not controlling people stats and apple. They're not, you know, so I don't think we're I just I think we're all I think we're just think about what is anchor in it for Does it seem like they're in it for the podcaster? I mean like I'm going to give you If I see issues, they should be brought up and you know, the anchor CEO seems to be responding to those. That's fantastic Right, so But does it feel like do those terms of service feel like they're in business for the content creator Doesn't feel like it But we've pointed out good things that you know if free gets people who wouldn't have started started Cool, and then maybe you jump off from there, but yeah, dude if you're doing stuff that seems sketch It should be called out and addressed and if you respond to that and then we update and we just go along It's a conversation. Um, I don't think they're being given Too much of a hard time. I mean obviously it depends on where you're coming from some people You know may approach that topic very differently and like I said, it's gotten very Heated debate, but they are a venture capital backed company. This is the third iteration of what anchor is Anchor used to be the my favorite app that I didn't use. I really loved what anchor was when it first started I think I get dave the laugh every time I say that that's fantastic. I'm just gonna keep recycling that joke But seriously, I've loved What they used to be and I don't need them the what they are now. I'm already podcasting so Um, yeah, I mean they they need to make money for their investors. So consider that so yeah, I mean if you come to podcasting and We're going to hold your feet to the fire And then just prove us wrong like that's how podcast podcasting is hard. So You know don't get hurt Just do the right thing All right, anyways, we can't yeah, we can't get ourselves away any any highly controversial topics They're gonna be People are gonna want to talk about a lot, but let's see here. I'm gonna X out this story I'll save that for Tina because she actually wrote that so that's cool. We'll save that one this story here, I believe josh Why you only need two buttons to promote your podcast. This is from our buddy James cridlin who was on the round table former round table, but what what is this about? So I guess I'll share what's in the article first He says inch short always linked to one always linked to your website and never anywhere else to Give visitors a big play button so they can listen immediately and then Give only two buttons one for apple podcasts and then one for google podcasts He says the reasons that he gave Only for apple's apple podcast and google podcast is because they're both pre-installed on mobile phones But then people ask Should I include Spotify seven percent of all lips and down those were Had were were on Spotify. So should you link to them too? or Why not link just to apple podcasts? And the reason for that is apple podcasts and google podcasts aren't in competition with each other because Google podcast is only on android So I would say my opinion This would be I agree on the home page. There should only be Google podcasts and apple podcasts But you should also have a subscribe page where you link the stitcher spotify and a few other podcast apps All right, so I'm going to podcast around table. I'm not giving myself a chance to get out of this What is yeah, just drop your bandwidth there and just um if your picture goes out at least we'll have the audio This is primarily an audio only podcast, but you should definitely go to youtube.com That doesn't sound better, but Go to podcast around table.com. Wait. No youtube.com such podcast is round table. Give us a look Are you curious what dave looks like? He's really tall. So you won't get that part of it But you don't and I am not close to as tall as dave is so if you meet us in person That'll be striking, but uh, you could at least see our faces What we pretend to be our faces mine's just a mask. There's a lot of makeup on this show I wear a lot of makeup. All right Podcasters round table if you go there front page Well, first one is apple podcast google podcast. I have a link to my rss feed Stitcher stitcher still there. There's an android there because That's there that was before google podcast google play music and email. I've got all kinds of stuff I all kinds of stuff but I don't know maybe that's wrong and I think the podcast around table I mean podcast studio has a spotify so I don't know. Daniel, what do you think? Should we only have two on our home page? or Well, kridlin's pretty usually pretty good about what he said. I mean he he knows his stuff. So Do you agree? I like the idea of simplifying certainly and you know disclosure here I am the guy who makes a wordpress plugin that gives you at this time 51 icons you I want them all For the love of all things rss. Please do not put all 51 on your site or I will refund your plugin Maybe the icons are so nicely designed. I want them all of that well, um I think I think two is too few Because i'm gonna go to the audacity podcast right now by the way. Well, yeah, and I I Use maybe just a couple too many, but well no I have other platforms that I need to link to for other types of content But I think that the the most important links would be apple podcasts android I'll explain that more in a moment rss and email And the email could be either your email newsletter Or it could be subscribed by email the service that blueberry offers for free And the rss would just be a straight link to your rss feed for any of those who want to subscribe manually with whatever apps they use I think the email one is actually really important and different not not not either or Like actual subscribed to the rss feed. So the only thing you get Is a podcast subscription from your r from an rss via email. I think that's really important I mean, I find a lot of people You know some people just like they you don't have to understand podcasting You just you're like, yo, you're going to send me an email every time there's a new episode And that's all you're going to send me the emails for I'll take that Yeah, and for the android link, this is where I I differ in an opinion with James, uh, especially on which Android link is ideal to use I suggest the subscribe on android option that blueberry offers Because that works with a bunch of different android podcast apps Wait, you suggest this over google podcast. Yes And one of the reasons there is google podcast is so new And because it's not even a pre-installed icon On android phones as james just recently pointed out the new android version android pie is available And it doesn't have google podcasts icon pre-installed the functionality. Yes, that's pre-installed the icon No, it's not there. So I think that many android users just won't recognize it yet To see that. Oh, this is the google podcast option Now they might see google and think, okay, google my phone is a google android But many people still call their phones droids, which is extremely trademarked Incorrect to call your android phone a droid the droid phones were just a few phones that were licensed by lucas films tangent Subscribe on android.com Will probably eventually support google podcasts as a fallback if you don't have one of the other Dozen podcast apps. Emily says that yes It will as of todd said on the new media show that it will support android is coming or getting google podcasts subscribe to android So I think that's a more recognizable option That people know. Okay. I've got an android phone So i'll subscribe on android. That just makes a lot of people. What about the functionality? Like if I hit the google podcast, it does a lot of cool things for me, right? If I have an android it's gonna then Put up the podcast right there. I mean you get it's more convoluted on subscribe on android if you don't have one of the apps But that's what subscribe on android will do in its magic Is that it will if you have one of those other dozen podcast apps, which people will I think won't though Maybe I mean yeah, most people probably won't but for all of those android users who for years have Chosen a different app to subscribe to podcast because there was no google official podcast You're making an option that's friendly for them if they don't have that app installed Then the way that subscribe on android is probably going to work Is that it will fall back to google podcasts? And if they're on a device that's too old to even have google podcasts Then it will probably fall back to the subscribe on android.com web page that we're familiar with where it recommends A podcast app or it might do something differently to recommend that they install google podcast But the point is it's doing this magic in the background to suggest the best option for an android user And I think that's better than locking them specifically into one particular app Now compare that though to ios and we are basically saying lock them into one particular but on ios That one particular app accounts for Probably 50 to 55 percent of everyone's downloads Specifically apple podcasts itunes is like five percent. Uh, so that makes up that 60 percent number we hear so I think it's okay to kind of be so specific on the ios side the android side is Unfortunately so fragmented that I think we need something that Kind of supports that fragmentation and that's why I recommend subscribe on android above google podcasts Yeah, I mean I what about spotify you guys you think that's a button that belongs now and the It's funny because I have a the podcasters studio.com slash submit. I have a cool infographic I call it cool because I made it But uh, it's like the first five Places it changes the number changes from like five to four these places where you absolutely should be When you first start your podcast and then definitely go out to uh, daniel site pod podcast places right Yeah, daniel go to podcast places and then work on the like 100 other places that you can submit But right away you should be in these and and again, I've had to update this I recently put spotify. This is there's five now spotify is the fifth one that I have on here But even I haven't even updated for google podcast yet because you don't You don't submit there, but that's a different story Um, but I have spotify on there because you do submit so Dave, what do you think of spotify is place in your your icons of where you're sending people on your home page? That's a great question because I don't have it yet for Yeah, I think I have it on my site because I'm using daniel's plugin but I guess I get the point where if you give them too many choices The person who's brand new to podcast is going to go. I don't know which one to click. So now I'm going to click anything so Yeah, it's weird in on the other hand. I never promote spotify and What a coincidence. I'm getting almost no plays on spotify. So it's kind of one of those You know is am I not getting any plays because I'm not promoting it or You know is it just that's my audience isn't over there I'm not really sure but I'm happy to hear that that there are people that are getting like 10 15 of their audience on spotify I'm just not one of them. But I don't know if that's because I'm not promoting it or or what but um, I just The other thing is and this sounds weird, but I just to me. I really really wish they were not Rehosting our content It's a pain in the butt if you want to switch something out over there So I'm happy that they're getting bigger But I'm also part of me is like uh because the bigger they get the more An issue it is if you want to replace something on spotify. It's kind of a pain in the butt Rehosting content is an interesting thing because this is something I feel like Um, well stitcher used to do it doesn't do it. Is it they don't do it at all now They don't do it by default and I found out why The reason they did that wasn't to I thought it's because they always wanted to control it They were worried because the I think I heard this from Todd the biggest competitor to say libson and blueberry Is self hosting people that are hosting on their website, right? And so uh, it was the latest edition of uh, the wolf den with the guy from overcast And he said the reason stitcher was re-hosting is because these shows would get popular and Because you're on a web host your web host would either make you shut down or move or whatever But it caused a problem if somebody got popular So they were like all right So they they went to this hole where they were re-hosting your stuff I find that hard to believe because I always thought it was just I mean it's cost on Well, I guess if you're the host, hmm That's altruistic because they took on the cost by re-hosting and they made it like 32 Kilobits per second, but and it was low quality But that was for business reasons But the original reason they re-host an interesting I have yet to listen episode But that's that's an interesting theory as to why They were re-hosting and that very altruistic if true. They didn't want shows to go dead Um, but they don't do that So I don't know what the change would be if they suddenly or more people are using hosting I don't know. Why would they change that? That's that that leads to that question. But for me Spotify is a new entrant into the podcast space. They're re-hosting As google play music used to do this too. They probably still do they still do But I feel like people come in they some do that and then they grow out of it I don't know. I don't know what that's about. Like so you saw a stitcher. Whatever reason they don't do it anymore Will google play continue to do it? I don't know and what this means is they download your file from your feed And then they put that they put it they put that copy So if my if so, I I put an episode out of podcast around table They take it and I change it. Maybe I want to change it. So all I have to do is upload the lipson And apple and all the other sites it will get changed for people who well who download it from that point on but Anyways, that's a whole other topic. But you can force everyone but it won't go there Anyways, it changes for the end user who then downloads from that point on but it won't change for someone in spotify Because then they have the file And this is isn't this more of an ad play don't they want to put ads in there? I'm not sure why spotify is to be honest. I know they play ads in between songs But it's not like they're stopping your podcast in the middle and because why would they want to take on the cost of hosting media? Like why would you do that right other than the stitcher the stitcher theory? But it kind of goes out the window because they're not doing it anymore. I don't want to say why they're not doing it anymore He didn't he just said that's why they were doing it and they probably my guess is for the cost What was when midroll bought stitcher? Yeah, that they decided well when then stitcher was owned by a podcasting company that knew what they were doing They knew how annoying it was to have stats in two different places and how Against the podcast system that it was and that was one of the first things that they changed when midroll took over I wonder if that is the reason That's what they say because it's also it's also cost. You're like, why would I want to take on the cost of hosting all these podcasts? But I know it's a quick way to make our bottom line much better The Spotify thing I think it depends on The type of show you have like Rob Walsh has talked about how it seems tech podcasts don't do very well on Spotify They're not a music podcast, Dave Yeah, and I think that entertainment based podcasts might do much better comedy podcasts tv show podcasts Maybe maybe sports podcast So I think you could potentially apply that same thinking to other platforms as well Like if you have the the iphone fan podcast Do you really even need to put an android? I would recommend it But that just to illustrate the thinking though is most likely your audience is not going to be listening on android And you can kind of make those assumptions and other things most likely if you have a tech show Your audience is probably not going to be listening through Spotify So it might not be important to promote your Spotify link But there might be other things like if you have a foreign language podcast And there's a particular podcast app That's hugely popular in the country where that foreign language is spoken Then you should probably provide a subscription link specifically for that app Because that would be what your audience would be looking for I think if you read between the lines there too, Daniel makes an important point because he said He's not saying don't be on the platform But not maybe not necessarily promoting the plan You don't need to what you're shouting into the void where people aren't they're not there So why are you spending all your time promoting this thing when your audience is over here promote that one? right I mean if you're going to there are limited calls to action like when you Oversaturate as we talked about give people too many options Sometimes it can be a barrier to getting involved. So it doesn't necessarily mean don't be on the directory Be available because you know we always talk about the the one or you don't know who's listening And you know two people could be enough. I love Daniel's example all the time if you have a show about Selling airplanes or an ad like you only need like one sale You give some example like that a long time ago I heard it and always stuck with me because it's true like it depends it depends but be there but maybe consider What they call the action is and we have we've talked about call the actions a lot about do we talk about Subscribe do we talk about going to the website? But you have to listen to back back episodes for that Emily In the chat said I may have missed it But did you talk about adding Spotify links to your Instagram stories? He said that was awesome So that's interesting that might be It's an interesting I guess you can put your podcast link from Spotify Into your Instagram stories and it would be hyperlink. I guess it would just open up the Spotify app That might be one place where I might I mean if if if if a platform is providing something cool like that I'd certainly be fun to try so I'm gonna actually play with that. I think just to see what happens, but so I think You know other platforms should step up and do cool things like that And then maybe yeah, I mean Spotify is gonna have a little bit of a run there where people are using that And other apps aren't there. So I just look forward to more people getting in the game there Help us help us help you. Let's say come on. So we're trying to do here All right. Well, I think That is the bulk of the stories I had pulled up and uh Yeah, Dave mine. Yeah, we're good. And we're at that hour mark So Unless there was something else you wanted to add or that we missed or you saw it in the chat Uh, Dave Daniel and you got something. Yeah, this isn't a documented story yet But it is something that I think is worth talking about is apple teen is cracking down on keyword stuffing in titles and author tags and unfortunately They're really cracking down. I don't know if it's just some hyperactive new employee that they got who's like This is my job to do. I think there was a posting on the job. We're recently too And so what they seem to be doing is Even if you give your show a subtitle in the title of your podcast Like once podcast hyphen unofficial once upon a time fan podcast Not keyword stuffing, you know, not putting entrepreneurship and zig ziggler and abraham lincoln and stuff like that This is something I think maybe all of us have promoted for a long time. It's a great idea like you There are two here. Go it goes to the oversaturation thing. There are too many podcasts Available to everyone be the literal name of what the content is and sometimes you just want a a good name But then it's you you you give that sort of subtitle to explain This is what you're going to get because you know, there's debate about whether Oh, people don't search for news. Whatever if they see the title of my show I want them to know what they're going to get but it sounds like we can't do that anymore Yeah, that's that's really concerning me. I understand Don't keyword stuff and I've taught that for years. Don't just stuff it with keywords And that's why we're here, right? I must be right people must be abusing this and apple take it the way And that's yeah, it's really discouraging because it means that Unless apple is going to fix this problem in other ways And the problem really is the reason why people do that is that currently Apple podcast and itunes search only four fields your title tags And author tags for the overall show and your title tags and your author tags for each individual episode descriptions show notes Tags keywords keyword fields or tag fields categories. None of that is searched by apple So if you type into daniel j into the search daniel j lewis, it's only going to search those four areas And so the reason why we've been recommending adding the subtitles is so that you can get a relevant keyword in there Especially if the title of your podcast isn't so obvious what you talk about or you just need that extra clarity I think this is going to hurt a lot of podcasts because There are yeah a lot of tv show fan podcasts for example I used to do once upon a time a tv show fan podcast that show is the tv show is now off the air So the podcast is over but at one point there were 15 active podcasts about that tv show and many of these podcasts took different approaches so that goes back to that conversation you're having earlier about are there too many podcasts but Uh, if you name one of those shows creatively like one of them was named storybrook herald well To people who see that and our fans of the tv show they understand the relevance But no one would find that in a search and you don't want to have to stuff into your episode titles that relevant keyword once upon a time the name of the tv show so This is going to create a new problem that if apple is going to say you can no longer put subtitles or title yeah like personal titles into these fields They really need some other way that we can find the podcast since descriptions aren't searched Just change the name of your show in apple podcast like it's just instead of a colon just remove the colon That's the name of my show. It's that big long sentence Right, it'll be well. I know there's a subtitle field And it's not it's not used anywhere So it's kind of like unless they're gonna bring that back from the dead But yeah, I had somebody at libson that emailed us and I forget the name of her show Whatever the the golden napkin with you know, jane smith and they They tried to blame it on a g uid and we went no the feeds actually absolutely Normal and then it turned out Rob got involved I think and it turned out that because she was saying wit jane smith they thought that she was like Spamming by adding a name and it's like no that's actually her name That's like that's the host and so it was really weird that they yanked it And I'm not sure exactly what the final outcome of it was But I think she had to take that part and put it in the subtitle field That's where I was like well, maybe they're gonna bring that field back. I don't know but it's It's I'm with Daniel somebody over there's Gotten a little I don't know they're taking their job a little too seriously and I get it There are some people that like like Daniel said they're Abraham Lincoln and zig ziggler and And everybody else John Lee Dumas, you know They're they're stuffing the names But it's gonna be interesting to watch and it would be very nice if they would I don't know give us a warning shot before they start pulling people shows What point is it actually he would stop thing because It's a good question if you're just describing about your podcast Can you To me, it's when it's like The school of podcasting inspired by Abraham Lincoln John Lee Dumas Pat Flynn uh Joyce Meyer You know Famous name famous name famous name You know that's when it's uh, but if it's like I don't know the school of podcasting How to plan launch and grow your podcast. Okay, that's not really You know, although I could see people say oh you're trying to Stuff in how to podcast and plan, you know, you know, so it's and that's where you're gonna have somebody if it's How do you come up with a? criteria Of this is keyword stuffing and this is not we're definitely in a PSA here because this is important for people to know Before your shape if you have this I have I have this for probably maybe this show I think it's podcast around table podcasters Discussing podcast something like that. So I have to go check. I'm tempted to leave it in. I just want to see what happens But um, hey returning roundtabler wants to say hi Stats just went through the roof Our review video Anyways, yeah, keep going I think a general guideline could be if your tagline or subtitle that you're adding has more than two commas Or it's longer than a very short sentence Then it's probably too much So like in Dave's case that's a necessary sentence because those are stages that he talks about but I would say in In most cases if you need to use a comma because you're listing multiple keywords, that might be too much If it's if it's something longer, then you might see someone give themselves as a personal title on their business card That might be too much That's kind of the guideline I try to go by is just a short sentence like if you had two seconds to tell someone what your podcast is about That's what your tagline would be Did you mention the author issue because this also applies to the author tag? So is it an issue for this show if myself Daniel and Dave or we're all listed in the author tag How do they know who's a co-host and who I'm maybe I'm just trying to leverage Dave and Daniel We got a Hall of Famer and award-winning podcast. I'm just stuffing dude for the Who's checking this? But if I put in my author tag Dave Jackson comma podcast consultant comma podcast guru comma John Lee Dumas we used to do that too. Yeah, there was a time When the only way to be found for your name or there was a time there was a reason for that too Yeah, because because the author tag was the only thing being searched along with your title So people started to keyword stuff the author tag because you know where there is a tag We will keyword stuff it so where there's a field an example that this is just off the top of my head not real names here But there was a podcast that I found fairly easily by searching for names. I knew were often stuffed Where the author tag Said the name the person's name and then it said with inspiration from Entrepreneurs like Pat Flynn Michael Hyatt Zig Ziglar If so and so had a podcast this would be it and that was in the author tag basically like If anyone's name is in the author tag who does not co-create the podcast with you Yeah, there doesn't belong in there, but who's checking like the thing for me is like the obvious examples are fine but there's this there's this Unclear line right where people are doing it for legit. So if it is a subtitle That is if you know, that's the heart that's the blue That's the hard part here is that a lot of people who are doing it right or just trying to Basically relay to the audience what it is they have a podcast about it's going to become You know that they're going to get removed too. So the obvious ones are easy But the the thing that they're more cracking down on is not only the spam that we've spoken against for the years But that just extension. I would call it not really stuffing But like to say If it's you know, Dave Jackson personal podcast coach They don't want to see or this is what we're hearing Um, I haven't heard from apple personally about this. I haven't had any of my stuff taken down yet. It's brand new, right? Yeah, it's really fresh. That's why there's no article definitely about this yet But um, they're saying that they don't want to even see that personal tag line in there to say personal podcast coach They want to see only a name. That's what I'm hearing from other people Yeah, I need to uh It's going to be interesting to see how they if they communicate at all and then It's just going to get ugly Be aware as if your podcast if you if you're watching this far your producer then you're highly engaged in the uh the uh The health and future of your podcast So now you know because it's brand new and go go check it out before you get booted Yeah, I know for me I went in and on the school of podcasting my author said dave jackson dash Podcast consultant and now I got rid of the phrase podcast consultant. Just as dave jackson Do you want your show title in the author field as well? No, is that necessary? No The only place they want your your show name is in the show name You know the same thing they for apple at least they want the episode number in the episode tag They don't want it in the title. They don't want your show title in the title They just want the title the episode so they're they're getting a little more sticky with that And it's not necessarily new we've seen this over the years that when something is abused apple I've already said that they take it the way but you know so Do take them literally it says title just put your title Says author just put the author Of your thing, you know, I think most people watching the show are doing the right thing But as we've seen you could get removed for even doing the right thing And I don't know I would imagine this is a manual process So in the case of having you know the three of us and the author tag Hopefully they'd check but that's a that's a lot of work. I don't know how you do that So it could be that they're not necessarily doing this retroactively, but it's some new employee again Maybe it's as they are looking at what new podcasts are coming in as well as what podcasts are Being featured by their algorithms in some way So it's just like what is catching their attention at the moment I really doubt they're combing through all 550,000 or so podcasts looking for violators, but it's probably just what's coming in What gets featured? Yeah, cool. All right. Well, let's leave it there. Now, you know having our way out Let us know where we can find your podcast one of them See people who come on the show have problems. They start a lot of podcasts You're the hardcore of the hardcore is but let's go with one Oh chocolate now you go ahead and uh, we will see you next time My daughter has chocolate. So I am definitely going to get out of here and start eating. I'll do that on the mic You're welcome. Daniel J. Lewis. Thanks again for joining us co-hosting beauties complete Thank you, and I don't have chocolate but the podcast will be returning soon over at the audacity to podcast.com And it'll be returning in a way that uh, a little bit of a surprise with um, a different style that will be coming back and Thank you. So watch for that at the audacity to podcast.com awesome Dave Jackson Dave Jackson, you can find me at school of podcasting dot com Dot com and josh. Thanks for joining us for your first round table. Hope you had a good time Yes, thank you. I did have a great time Well, you can Find all my stuff at the corner cutter podcast dot com Awesome, and of course all those shows would be linked In the show notes, which I think you just swipe up to the left Swipe somewhere in your app. It'll be clickable and uh Otherwise podcast was round table dot com to be a slash guest to be a guest We need more people on here more podcasters Everyone if you have a podcast we want to see you on here That is the ultimate goal and then we can just shut this show off cut the feed Anchor can do what they want with it Go crazy make yourself rich on the round table Because we know it's got potential. All right 116. See you next time right here. Wait