 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 117 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and in this one Bob what we're going to be looking at is really interesting topic I can't wait for this one falling in love with your clients in the therapy process. Well you know Jackie I think we've been doing these two years or however long we've been doing these titles but I always love it when you say the when the introduction goes and wonderful Bob Cook and you know when we talk about love the English language or the English yeah the English language is very very limiting. Yes. So if you go to Greek culture for example there's about seven words for various type of love same in Italy and many other countries but in England or the United Kingdom love covers many different aspects yeah wonderful Bob Cook is a very loving caring thing to say we could say but we haven't got the different types of love so in Greek you've got a gape have a new you've got eros I can't remember all the nine various forms of love but we haven't got that it's very processed in our language is very definitive. So when I'm talking about you know falling in love with clients my colleague beat me to what I was going to say anyway because I said to my colleague friend um I was going to do this this podcast and he said what I was thinking about but he said it before so I didn't say it so he took ownership of this but I actually had thought this and that is my report. I was laughing when I thought of it but my response is um well I'd be worried if I didn't fall in love with my client. Interesting. It's what your perception of it is isn't it? So if love equals taking account of taking care of yeah thinking about them. The last podcast I think we did all another part which is about tissues and you know tea it's in this ballpark yeah taking care thinking about them uh promoting loving actions spending time worrying about them being concerned about them they're all the ballpark of love yeah it depends what we mean by love yeah you know um if we're going to about romantic love which part of this podcast will be about yeah and we're into perhaps another whole story which a lot of this podcast has been about but love on a more general sense I mean we haven't got the the word in the English language taking time to take our client to supervision if we're stuck yeah thinking about them maybe offering a cup of tea passing a psychotissue box um spending time pondering clinical processes being moved from the heart they're all in the ballpark of love yeah absolutely yeah yeah there's an energetic love stream so from that perspective I'd be worried if I wasn't thinking fondly loving counting all things I've just said per se yeah and I bet my bottom draw is the same for you yeah yeah I think when I read that title there was you know that instant thing oh you know is he gonna ask me if I've ever fallen in love with one of my clients and then you think about the intimacy and the relationship side of loving everything but I also know that you know every one of my clients have a special place in my heart for whatever reason yeah lots of different reasons you know if they're I feel moved by the story to me is an you know show of affection or caring about them does that equate to love it like you said there's there's lots of different ways that we can show it absolutely so when you say how are you today I was thinking about you last week yeah what actually happened for you when you left the therapy session yeah isn't that a loving action that you would be thinking about your client that you'd be pondering about them that you'd remember what you worked in the last session yeah now the clients may never have had that type of love if you like and many of my clients didn't yeah yeah so that type of fertile ground that type of attitude can be very repetitive in its own sense anyway yeah and there's something I don't actually know what they all are and it's very American or whatever but the love languages and how we need to be shown love whether that's by you know different acts like people making us a cup of tea you know going on to that podcast that we recently did about tissues and tea whether it's you know by touch or you know acts of kindness you know we all receive love in lots of different ways for me it's been seen and heard that makes me feel important and cared for by the other person if I'm literally seen and heard and for many many many of my clients over all the years a lot of the therapy has been about this type of attitude and the client being able to take the loving types of actions and thoughts which they often had never you know had in their lives yeah or in fact would think it was a trick yes yeah technique or some sort of language like that and we found it so hard to take yeah and I think you know when sometimes when we have given love in you know a way that connects with the client it can change the dynamic somehow oh you know I've had it where some clients have literally withdrawn because it's been it's felt too too intense or being seen and heard in a therapy session can be too much for them yeah and that's really really important for the therapist to think about yeah and to notice if it happens and then bring it back to the therapy room and discuss you know how did it feel for you when I said that or did that yeah because if people haven't been brought up on a full meal yeah say they've been brought up on crumbs rather than the full meal and if they have a full meal they'll be sick yeah absolutely that's a really good metaphor Bob and I think that's how it feels it's overwhelming yeah overwhelming yeah and then they'll close down yeah um so it's important that the therapist is going to think this way relationally they consider all this in terms of a developmental perspective with their clients in transaction analysis it would be the world script yeah they spend some time thinking about the client's script within the therapeutic relationship yeah yeah because giving and receiving love often can be seen as you know it's that place of vulnerability you know if it's going to be received and and you know reciprocated or whatever it is so it can be quite triggering for clients oh oh in fact extraordinarily yeah extraordinarily triggering because you know um often for many many clients who've never had that love or that's what they've dreamt about or that's what they've desired or that's what they've fundamentally needed but have never had um it's such a challenging process yeah to be able to open their heart up or be vulnerable with someone in a completely different place in their history comes so challenging and you know Jackie's often the therapy in the end yeah and I think it it it shines a light on what they haven't had in their upbringing and in their past when it is given to them freely you know without any I don't know you know bartering or you know something attached to it if love is just given for the sake of it you know that can often shine a light on that that's not how it was when they were growing up you know there was always in a something attached to it they had to there was a payback or a clause to love they had to do something yeah yeah yeah or the people that've been so neglected so neglected they don't even know what loving actions are yeah so any loving actions go through a psychological filter for them so by the time it they have to receive it they've got they've got a a coat of armor called denial that they don't even recognize it yeah and it feels sad to I'm thinking of lots of my clients I feel sad talking this way but you know it's so true and a therapist needs to really I believe understand these things we're talking about and understand the defences that clients have often had to put up for survival work and reasons and it's very important that their stop these loving actions but they may have to dilute them yeah yeah absolutely because it can be overwhelming when you've not had it before and you mistrust you know what I mean you don't believe it there's there's like you said the the hurdles that the therapist will have to jump over sometimes to prove that what they're doing doesn't have ulterior motives it needs to be a slow process extraordinarily slow yeah and in the type of therapy I've practiced for years and years which is developmental integrative relational psychotherapy then what I'm talking about here is really really important to understand for the therapist more than anything else because it's like then they will understand the filtering system of the client the defences of the client they'll understand how to pace the psychotherapy process they won't take withdrawal rejection denial as a personal attack on them or various other things and they will understand or all what we're talking about here Jackie in a therapeutic lens yeah yeah and I think that's an important point you know whether the therapist takes it personally the client's reaction to certain things do you know what I mean and I know we've spoke about it in the past getting it wrong in therapy you know and how we come back from making a mistake and maybe doing too much too soon and all those sort of things yeah I think what we're here is really important now Richard Erskine one of my mentors and the developer the developer if you like of integrative developmental relational psychotherapy and the founder of the international integrative psychotherapy association talked about the the person's relational need for expressing love yeah you know to you know we could call that kindness if you like but it's a relational need within all of us to you know or a desire if you like to express love and so for him I think what we're talking about here is how he would see therapy yeah now let's jump back then from that to what I think you've hinted on and what I would just like to talk about for a few minutes which is in the therapeutic lens of erotic transference yeah and that's when we might want to term what would the other end of cloudy what I've just been talking about in some ways romantic love you know so if the therapist finds themselves you know coming from a place of romantic love or sexual love or however we want to term this it's very very important that they go to their supervisor yeah that's the first thing they need to go to yeah as soon as they become aware of these feelings now when a soup when somebody comes to me say talk about what we're just talking about here my first question probably would be whose love do you think this is romantic love do you think this is do you think this is a projection on you from the client and you picked it up my projected identification and it doesn't actually come from you it comes from yeah or do you think it is an actual physical attraction in the here and now from both of you yeah even from you so okay you know there's an explore exploration which we could call erotic transference you know it's an exploration of the erotic transference but if it's a physical attraction here and now and the client is sorry the therapist is certain about that yeah and it's not got any transference history for example yeah biological or chemical or whatever we want to because then the therapist then asked the thing well this is this going to hinder any therapeutic process am I going to act out on this is this going to be counter counterproductive and what do I do about this so there's lots of options you know but I think they need strongly to think about referring on yeah I've got further than that they need to refer like I think it's a really valid point though when you're saying about is this transference is this the feeling or is this something that's being projected on them because in therapy sessions it can it can be you know a den of emotional stuff that's in there I know for me you know sometimes I'm I'm quite good at picking up somebody else's stuff whether it's usually anxiety I'm really good at picking up anxiety from other people and then realizing that I'm starting to feel anxious but I know it's not my anxiety it's somebody else's but you know as a new psychotherapist I wasn't even aware that that was what was happening a lot of the time I thought I was feeling anxious you know literally my heart you know would race and I couldn't work out what was going on for a while so it's a very important another important question as as the supervisor explores the transference with the therapist is to ask the question in this transferential matrix or projective identification process is who is the client for you yeah and ask the therapist just to reflect on that doesn't have to be actually be a person in my part of yourself the younger part of yourself could be even you know to do qualities and it might be a real person yeah yeah mother could be assistant it could be somebody you've never had it could be but we're starting then to explore transferential implications and psychological processes yeah and I think those that whole way of talking clinically about what's happening in the therapy room is why supervision is so important yeah absolutely and in that situation you would still refer on and and say you need to work through this in your own therapy well I'd want to explore all completely what you just said there I want to explore for a transferential point of view yeah I'd want the person to explore therapeutically yeah and if it's a physical attraction in the here and now then without any transferential without any you know historical aspects and if they think they aren't able to do the therapy therapy process because they're always in inverted commas lusting after the client or or whatever language we want here they have to refer on yeah because I think we need to mention that it's not ethical to be in a relationship with a client a hundred percent that's that's not the world where anybody should be going I mean I have a colleague I'm thinking of my head who said well there is another I'm hearing it in my head now as I speak oh there's another option Bob and the other option is or he would say anyway as a supervisor one another option is you could talk to your client about this yeah you could say well you know before going any further I just wanted to say that I have an attraction for me to take this supervision and look at it in therapy and see what the other person says yeah that's an interesting one that Bob just thinking of somebody who's purely relational yeah you know but yes of course we can't have to work with somebody who you know once we've explored all these things and you need to do it straight away not just because you know the danger of all this is that we therapy proper therapy won't happen if you always yeah thinking during your listening and and of course you could end up acting out something yes so it's really important we refer on and you know I think it's vitally important we don't like a month to see our supervisor either yeah we wing up and have an emergency session yeah or we have an emergency session with our therapist before we next see the client yeah we don't oh well I've got supervision in a month or I've got therapist in two you know two months time or something like that because you know we're sort of coming from an ethical position yeah absolutely otherwise yeah and it's a really interesting concept and you know the title of this you know falling in love with your clients in the therapy process and I'm sure we've discussed this in other ones but there's also the completely opposite side to this where we don't like our clients for similar reasons whether that's you know transferring so whatever it is either way it's not ethical to not take that to supervision or to do something about that we couldn't carry on seeing those clients with those strong feelings at either end of the spectrum if we are I've got obsessive romantic love we have to refer on what I'm saying though is before you see the client next as soon as you know where that have an emerging supervision session have an emergency therapy session just to give yourself a chance to talk about these things yeah but see them again until you've resolved it in other words if if you can't resolve this or you don't understand what it's about or XXX then you have to refer yeah yeah because you can't do effective therapy if you don't feel you know quite often though by the way I do want to give a plea of you know when therapists have come to me saying the same sort of thing I've had an emergency session we talk about it and what I've just the frame I've just talked about transferentially and they've seen their therapist also two days time sometimes they've had such a big quantum shift and understanding it's not their sexual feelings has actually come from somewhere else yeah and it's a project of identification they have been able to work with the client yeah but it is it is that taking it and talking about it with somebody who's unbiased who can think outside of the relationship as in the therapeutic relationship because it is difficult when you're in that situation and that relationship with somebody to look at it objectively yeah it's also difficult again I'm hearing this person when I say don't you can always go back to the client and talk about it so you go back to the client and you say that the client is an option I've been I just want to say that I've been having sexual feelings around you so I've taken this this decision and I was wondering if if you if these feelings have come from you or now it's an important discussion the problem with that is and I'm not I'm not saying don't do it by the way because anything's better than continuing in a situation yeah and it's not resolved or not looked at or whatever way you want to talk about it um is shame because you know the client can get ashamed very easily in all this but at the end of the day it has to be addressed yeah and if it can't be resolved you need to refer that person on yeah I know the good topic Bob there's a lot written on this by the way I did a youtube years ago 10 years ago if you're into my web my youtube channel what cool can put in erotic transfers in did at least 10 years ago uh with willy leo because he's a friend of mine it's one of the what most watched videos I've ever done um um I'm 10 years it's 10 years ago of the way wow long time ago so um but but I was talking specifically about erotic transfers I do want to give a plea of though of what we started off talking about at the beginning which is what constitutes loving actions yeah a character pondering thinking about your client asking your clients you know I was thinking about you last week how are you today yeah all loving actions aren't they yeah yeah that whole discussion for me is really important as is what we have just talked about because I think often this is is in the role of transfer and sound can be resolved and there might be a quantum shift and you you can discuss it with your client but you know it's really important that if you can't resolve it you don't work with that client you need to explain it yeah yeah I was saying just sort of don't turn up or something or you say well I can't work and make something up you need to be transparent and honest but in my experience clients really respect that and my commands say well I've been sexually attracted to you and then you go I just go it's a really difficult situation to be in in that respect because I would imagine I don't know whether it's just me it could just be me but you know my fostering background and everything there was always a big thing about allegations being a foster carer you know to me that I would the things that we were doing could be misconstrued by the kids or whatever so if you're going to come out to a client and say you know I'm having some sexualised feelings about you does that open us up as therapists you know to our allegations against I think the worst position is if you continue therapy yeah and do not only say that I think you know in terms of transparency and referring someone on yeah because we're human aren't we absolutely yeah problem is if in terms of allegations of things you're talking about is if you don't do that yeah but I would imagine there is a big fear you know we with therapists around allegations and where that might lead well if you said to you've seen that and you say look I've uh taken this description discuss that and I start to have sexual feelings with you and I feel that I can't do the therapy now I have to be transparent with you what what's your thinking about litigation there I I don't know that it's just not ethical to have those sorts of feelings for a client and how it can be you know misinterpreted by the client that's true what you've just said misinterpretation yeah yeah when you might want to record it then yeah it was it was just a thought that you know what I mean it is a very delicate subject and you know the the guilt and the shame whether that's on the therapist part or the client's part yeah I agree Jackie but I think it's far worse if you make something up and say well I just want to refer you because I don't get on with you yeah well I just want to refer you because I think you owe me the clients a level of transparency in all this yeah and it's good if you have taken it to your supervisor because then there will be a note that you've obviously spoken to your supervisor about it and everything so again it just I'm just thinking for anybody listening you know if they were going through this sort of a situation how they might be feeling if that makes sense well talk to your supervisor yeah he might say we only need to record the session yeah say xx and x but it's very important you don't continue with somebody if or how are you on in this process yeah without track being transparent yeah yeah I agree and then another level what you said earlier on about if you extremely hate your client or dislike you need to talk about that and transfer in terms of the supervisory process and see where that all comes from yeah because we we do have feelings and emotions in the therapy room that belong to us you know to me because we're co-created a relationship so we're in there all of our stuff as well as the client is you know I think that's one of the reasons why I like the relational psychotherapy and transactional analysis because I do take the whole of myself in the room with me I don't leave parts of my personality outside the door if that makes sense so we are going to come across difficult situations with the client in the therapy room and I think using supervision using your therapist transparency and ethical integrity is the way forward yeah me too so another good podcast of what we're going to be talking about could have been in the in the air an ethical dilemma but I do think that it's important to discuss yeah I think I think a lot of the topics that we talk about are really important and I think that's one of the reasons you know the the therapy show behind closed doors because I don't think a lot of this stuff is openly spoken about no between the the therapist and the supervisors hopefully but openly with students or you know people that are interested in therapy I don't think these things are spoken about no and I'll give a sort of adverse for the United Kingdom Council psychotherapy here which is the the basic I think regulating model not model authority for therapists regulating body play that way and they demand that people try to be therapists have 160 hours of therapy over four years and they have a very strong ethical code and it's so important yeah because if there's not this accountable body for example we live in the what we can look we could live in the world of the wild west yeah easily yeah without any regulation or accountability yeah the ACP another important regulating body without these bodies without these forms of accountability without these frameworks of supervision therapy and everything else goes with it we can live in the world of the world west easily and a deregulated unappountable process without framework or structure and that was set psychotherapy back to the dark ages yeah yeah yeah so I started to be trained when I first trained 1985 when I first went into training to be a psychotherapist UK CP didn't exist BACP didn't exist there was no regulating bodies at all I was in the world of transaction analysis which did have a european regulation regulating body which I really liked because it gave structure gave ethical framework at least gave me some sort of you know process could hold on to but many of the regulating bodies in the arty kingdom didn't exist even so it was it was in this very young infancy of the disciplines of psychotherapy and counselling so the regulating body at least gave me some sort of protection structure and of course clients protection structure and accountability yeah definitely so Bob thank you thank you thank you very much given me the chance to talk about the different types of love as well and in the next podcast we'll be looking at codependency in the therapy process which kind of leads on I think from this yeah sometimes in transaction analysis world codependence codependency is called symbiosis yeah and again in the transaction analysis world you've got first order symbiosis second order symbiosis but we'll talk about it I think in the world of codependency which is really an American word but for the people who are listening to it you can call it symbiosis we call it codependency but it's a fascinating subject for what can happen often transferentially in the psychotherapy room and the two people that may not even be aware of it yeah I think codependency is more easily understandable like you said it's American but it kind of says what it is on the tin I agree with you I look forward to discussing that absolutely until next time Bob thank you so much thank you speak to you soon speak to you soon bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode