 Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of 575 ounces joining me Of course are the usual suspects Jamie altar Nikhil Nas and joining our trial today a very unfit trial because we're talking about a very fit topic a fitness related topic because Cricket as we know it especially as far as from an Indian angle is Closer to starting now as to when it was when this lockdown was announced Which means a lot of fitness things come into the entire picture How long will it take for you to get back into match fitness a lot of the of course the medical staff and the fitness staff That are with the Indian cricket team have given out quotes But to give us more perspective on it is someone who's been with the Indian cricket team in the past Who's been with the Rajasthan Royals franchise since 2008 currently till now he is of course the head of Sports science for go sports foundation former physiotherapist head physiotherapist of the Indian team currently with the Rajasthan Royals John Gloucester. Thank you so much for joining us on five 75 ounces three unfit men Trying to get a little load on on both the fitness situation is over the Indian cricket team John Don't need a proper look at our faces. I think faces tell you everything straight up, but John I'm just gonna tell you Drive right into it because a couple of quotes have come in now and you know resumption of cricket I don't know there isn't an exact date, but probably you could say we're closer to it now And there's a quote that of course came from our Shreedhar and this one was the challenge is to proceed in the right phases As a player you can get excited when you play after 14 or 15 beats First phase it will be low volume low intensity followed by moderate volume Moderate intensity then moderate volume low intensity high volume moderate intensity and then starts in high volume and high Intensity basically saying the sharpest minds for test cricket will probably take six weeks to get back into test match mode Now for normal people like us whose head this goes over Could you get into a little specific John? So say if you look up Yeah, it's interesting how he's sort of yeah I get what he's coming from and and what he's saying there is you know It's simple terms means that everything has to be graded But you've also got to you've also got to look at the two or three key things you've got to look at so that transition period from lockdown To play it's critical because that's where you determine whether you get the players ready or not And whether they're therefore going to get injured or not when they return to play So it's a critical period But it's dependent on two or three things one of them is time So it's very time-dependent to how much time do you actually have between when they return after lockdown to when the first matches are I believe it's very role-dependent because the preparation for a fast bowler It's gonna be completely different to that for a for a batsman and then it's format dependent You've got to work out which format are they going back to they're going back to test cricket ODI cricket or C20 cricket because every single one has a different demand Okay, but fortunately for us What we do have available to us and we've been collecting this data for the last three years of run-down roles and the Indian team has Been doing it for the last couple years is we have that catapult GPS data For every single player from every single match So what we now know is we know what their match fitness levels have to be Okay, so we now have raw data to say and hit until they reach these match These match profiles and they're not really fit to return to sport So we mapping our return to sport criteria around that data Because we know exactly how fast they run We know how much total distances they cover in matches We know how much time they spend in all the various speed bands 15 to 20 25 25 to 30 30 plus etc What their run-up speeds are what their acceleration deceleration rates are what they're you know normative movement data looks like all of that is mapped So we now know if they're not prepared for the match situation We now know that they're at risk of injury. So that data is available. So that's the beauty of it So and for each individual it's going to be different So the time frame is going to be different for the fast bowlers. The time frame is going to be very different for an ODI T20 versus test cricket We know from this data that T20 cricket Is a speed based sport? Okay The what we call the high speed running velocity in T20 cricket is 30% greater than that of the the running velocities in test cricket So there's totally different preparations depending on the format that these are guys are going back to So John sir, what if the owners was put on you? From from the health point of view and it was put on you and say from from that perspective given that they're coming from courtesy lockdown Which format would be easiest to ease into so that the load on the body is not much Look, I think all of them have their own sort of nuances or idiosyncrasies attached You know in that ODI C20 and ODI cricket like I said is much faster The duration of time spent on the field is less and therefore the total distance is covered on the field is less So for T20, it's about eight to ten kilometers of total distance covered on average For ODI crickets between about 12 and max 15 But in test cricket gets up over 20 kilometers total distance covered in the game. So therefore there's a very endurance Dependent one which is test cricket and then there's more speed and shorter duration We'll call speed endurance for the for the shorter forms of the game for me I think I still think T20 is probably the best one to To work on And easiest to work on because there will be a shorter time frame I think people are fast bowlers because they're not going to have to front up and bowl 20 overs in a day's play straight up They've only got a bowl maximum four overs and then cover the ground appropriately on the field So it's probably T20, but the difference with T20 is the speed But fortunately speed is one of the things that you can gain very quickly But it's also one of the things that you lose quickest out of all your strength fitness parameters Speed is the one that we lose first if you're not training for speed you lose that losing speed after five days So but you can gain speed quickly But you can also lose it very quickly. So I think T20 is probably the easiest format to train for in terms of time But the biggest demand is from from the speed perspective and that's quite difficult to train for John John what about the mental aspect of this entire thing, you know, you've been Here you are you're probably world-class athletes the best of what you do in terms of body execution talent everything and suddenly you've been put away at home, which you've never done before for two months And to sort of then come back into that mode that you've been As you know, we young kids like calling beast mode is thrown out a lot nowadays and As far as fitness is concerned Instagram and so on these places then How about the mental aspect of this entire thing? How do you work on that to get them back into that zone again? Yeah, I think I think it was paul romer from stanford uni once said, you know, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste So, uh, we we've certainly not wasted this time And one of the things we haven't wasted time on is developing the other side of the modern players game And that's the mental side because this side We never really have the opportunity to dive into and explore and develop for our players So this covet 19 has actually given us a perfect opportunity to do that um, I had a I had a really interesting conversation with an Australian sports psychologist a couple of days ago He's terming this covet 19 is sort of a bit of a reality check But in but in a good way And what he meant by that was the term that he uses is he's using this as the term welcome to retirement So he said i'm starting to get these players to think about this is what life would be like After cricket So now let's start developing or if you're injured for a long period of time So now is the perfect time to start thinking about both those scenarios, but at the same time Given that covet 19 testing us all mentally This is a perfect time to develop strategies to overcome that which is then going to help you in those pressure and fearful situations Going forward in a post post covet. So fear Is often a limiting factor to performance. Okay for many even the greatest It's not always technical or skill that limits us Okay, it's often fear and i'm and this is the perfect time to practice within these scenarios decision making In hostile fearful uncertain environments because I can tell you right now. You're not going to get any more Hostile fearful uncertain environment that what's surrounding us at the moment So use this opportunity mind my message to the players is use this opportunity To develop and build some of these skills Outside of your normal game that's going to benefit you in your game when we go back post covet 19 And we always talk about the one percent is we always talk about, you know What's going to make you better than the guy sitting next to you? Well, this is the opportunity to build the number one the one percenter Which is the mental side of these guys game develop patience develop discipline develop routine A fantastic opportunity to work on nutrition on your nutrition Okay, another super important, you know Platform for the for the modern-day cricketer if that's not right the physical will never be right So these are opportunities to learn and these are opportunities to grow and that's the key message in that i've been giving to our players Yeah, I could could I ask you a couple of questions john one You know, I'd love to know from you because I mean just hearing you one thing that you realize is that Probably the person would be The quickest to get into a cricket field would be ideally a batsman of the t20 format assuming You know just looking at that so now but what I'd like to know from you is The toughest probably would be for a fast bowler playing test cricket now Just your guesstimate and I know it's conjectured something that you could look at I mean with all the years that you've put into it How far would be a fast bowler right now from playing test cricket in terms of the three years of lockdown that he's had Yeah, it depends on what they've been able to do during this lockdown So that's going to vary from from state to state city to city country to country and we're seeing that hugely in that You know for for an indian player In the normal constraints of the lockdown in the city say bomb bay It's very very different to say, you know, event stocks, for example, you know at his place you could have The lockdowns there weren't so strict they could get outside. They could still train They've all got bigger gardens bigger, you know free air space free space to train So if you're looking at say an indian player an indian fast bowler Yeah in bomb bay over the last three months There are severe limitations to his physical capability going forward But this is also a very good opportunity to work on what we call the, you know, your foundation skills for the game This is a great opportunity to work on things we never have time to work on I mentioned about the mental before This is an incredible opportunity to work on the foundations of the game the core stability the single leg stability the ply metric side the you know the The the coordination the breathing The balance the you know all the little things we never really work on which which actually are the foundations to build To building speed and strength and power and all the other things on top of it So i'm hoping and and all of our guys have been given programs to really work hard on that So the least then that transition phase is better controlled and much safer for them and the foundations built to then sort to to accelerate it a much You know at a much faster pace so The fast bowler going back to test cricket from an indian sort of in the indian context I believe they're probably about eight weeks Eight weeks or so at least away from being safely able to return Because that's that's how that's assuming that they've done their foundation work Okay, and they've been really good with their nutrition. They've managed to control their weight But we've got to look at other factors as well around You know bone density Because things like lack of vitamin d if they're not outside in the sunshine Maybe a poor diet during this period They're not getting what we call sufficient weight bearing or load bearing Which is what stimulates bone to turn over and be strong. So there are two or three key Sort of intrinsic factors that have to be brought into this equation as well That will determine outcomes physical outcomes for those fast bowlers and their and their skeletal systems when they do go back to cricket So they're going to be I think they're going to have to be monitored very very closely But again, fortunately, we have their data We know what's expected of them and we know what we need to do to get them there But I think the process is going to be anywhere between about eight and ten weeks Okay, so so that's great. So eight to ten weeks as you're saying for for a fast bowler to return to test cricket Now, let me put you, you know in the shoes of the Rajasthan royals You know physiotherapists at the moment, you know, someone who's involved with them at this time We are getting to hear that maybe october Maybe the time that ipl may happen now again, you know, these are just estimates based on the news sources Yeah, I think that's I agree. So in in that scenario, um, and let's take a look at uh, again, uh, you know I'm just giving you a sample of let's say an indian fast bowler in indian condition to play t20 cricket What's the minimum time that you'd require and you would like to tell the organizers that I need the boys at this particular time For them to be ready. Let's say for our ipl in october No, but also I'd like to add sorry one more thing that uh current scenario when you don't know the date, right? And uh dates are being flown around How are you then preparing for something because when you don't have an end date it You know the complexity is add more and more Yeah, exactly. And and this is one thing we've been talking to the athletes about about the cricketers is that You know, normally athletes have what we call a destination There's often a destination for them to work towards whereas here We still don't have that destination in most cases some other countries. Yes, Australia and other countries Um, and this is not just unique to our cricketers This is unique to our olympians and all the other people that I'm working with as well But so there's no destination as such because normally when you have a destination you then work back from that destination Um, and then what we call periodized up to that performance date So again, that's still very difficult. So so therefore motivation Is going to be it's a big thing and we've had a number of players saying that you know, I'm just not motivated and and That's completely normal and I've said to them that given that you don't have this destination Lack of motivation on, you know, not having the desire to train on certain dates is completely normal and listen to it You know, it's your body's way of saying or your mind's way of saying that, you know, I need to be Restimulated somewhere so taking three or four days away from your training is not going to change any of your physical parameters Or like I said, the first thing you lose if you're not training is speed But that takes five days before it starts to go general fitness is around 15 to 20 days Strength is around 20 to 25 days. I think roughly so It doesn't matter if you're taking two or three days out to get this You know above the shoulders to get this back in order So then the physical can then sort of be, you know, kick-started again. So um, so so IPL, you know, what we're saying to our players is that You know, we're not giving dates because we don't know dates But we're saying let's just keep the foundations in place If you have the opportunity to do more then we're encouraging you to do more But at the same time, we're also taking them out. So after the first two months They all worked really really hard Then we actually took them all away for two weeks nothing Fast bowlers who were able to do some bowling and running. We actually said don't do anything Just pull back. Let's get everything else refreshed Focus on some other creative things focus focus on some hobbies focus on being Creative in other areas of your life or in your house or your space your domain Um, and then we'll return to the physical bit later and start building up again So we're going to have to go through these waves a little bit until we've got a more definitive timeframe But let's say we're assuming that it's october, you know, let's let's just assume october Then we'll have to count back from that and ideally if october was the date I'm and knowing what they've been doing up till now up till now. I still think I'd need probably four At least four to six weeks of the guys to sort of be confident that when we hit the ground Running and that first rpl match that there's there's not going to be too much injury risk So, you know, you know, our role is you know mitigating injury at any opportunity so All our risk mitigation sort of criteria are in place It's now just a matter of implementing them as we see fit once we know time frame But the biggest part of that injury risk mitigator is this whole high speed running Capability that the players must have for the modern game. So that is number one for me speed We work on speed first you talk to the stephen jones of the world You talk to any of the you know, the best s and c and best sport scientists And biomechanists in the world They all talk about laying this foundation of speed first because the modern game The tiki p20 is built around speed. You know, there's no way around that So that is that is critical for all our players. That's the first thing that we're building once the foundations are in place Jimmy you got something right there. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously we've we've covered so many bases I'm just thinking about your what you mentioned jonama motivation Obviously the motivation would be different for people who are playing for an ipl franchise as well as for the indian team And then there'd be the likes who who maybe maybe part of an ipl franchise But who actually see more playing time when they're playing for their domestic state teams Would be right to say that perhaps their motivation would be perhaps at the least because once they leave the The environment which you've created let's say rise on royals and then they go back to their domestic structure Where perhaps it is not as fine-tuned What about some some players who fall in that category? They're probably the players that we call they're the at-risk group of players that we talk about because They're leaving a protected environment But what i'm hoping to do is skill them enough With it and educate them enough to know The dangers around not doing certain things and trying to go back to to play So they're all they're all educated on what the process is they're all educated about what the basics are and what these You know what foundations need to be in place and that's one thing that we pride ourselves Certainly on a roadstone role is that we maintain a relationship with these players 12 months of the year It's not just the two months around IPL Every single one of those we have a you know a communications log every two within every two weeks I'm communicating with every single player on that squad So they know that they have a contact point that is Safe and secure and reliable That if they have any issues or they want any information about exactly what you're talking about return to play safety Injury wellness nutrition whatever it may be mental health whatever it may be They do have a contact point that is consistent for them throughout the year and that's You know, I I see that as our what we call duty of care Um, and and again if we look at all these players as assets the significant assets for us Um, and not just financial assets. I mean, yes, they are given the context of the IPL and how well quick it is These days, but they're also assets of people and my responsibility is to protect that asset for the franchise Protect the asset for the the association or the club that they're going back to protect that asset for their country if they're going back to International cricket, but ultimately for me it's about protecting that asset and their long-term health outcomes That is equally as important to me as the short-term Outcomes and performance as well. So it's all about education. It's all about having a relationship with that individual throughout the entire year Uh, John, if I could just bring the conversation back to the Indian team And I'll just take you through a court of Hardik Pandya Who of course recovered from a back injury and was hoping to get back into some game time as far as international cricket is concerned This is what he said on crick bars with the harsha bhogle He said for me test match cricket right now will be a challenge If I was a proper test match player and I did not have the game that I had in bite ball cricket I would still go and risk my back I've played times there are test matches and followed that up with the odi and t20 series have come and I haven't done well By the time the odi and t20 comes my body says I can only give you 50 percent There was a situation where my back was only allowing me to perform 50 percent And that's when I started realizing that I don't have to bowl Full pace every ball. That's when I started bowling more slow balls in the world cup So if I bowl the total of 10 overs in the world cup four overs out of that Would be slower deliveries and not just hardic John would you suppose keeping in mind the situation you're coming out of The fact i'm alluding to is the all format player Would you say the all format player should be put on the side for right now till this transitional period Being till the end of the year is there and so that you know, you break it up with a lot more players coming in And so of course the load in the body is a lot lesser than Yeah, I think the most difficult one is the all format player now post-covid And particularly for someone like hardic because He still has to get over the mental hurdles of performance as well Given post-surgery because he hasn't really played competitive international cricket Since his since his back surgery. So he still has another psychological hurdle to overcome So there will always be that sort of I wouldn't say reluctance for that apprehension around returning to particularly the longer forms of the game Given that he hasn't tested his body Even in the shorter forms of the game at international level just yet So there's always going to be that apprehension for him. It's only until you achieve those targets and achieve that without Re-injuring that you then cross those that that that mental hurdles and then push on to into other forms So the all format player post-covid 19 is probably going to be what we call most at risk Particularly if they're going straight from a test series Like we said, you know, I think the england boys going straight from a test series then into a into a shorter format series And the preparation because the numbers tell us like I said the gps numbers tell us is very very different So what they may have to do is even during the test series Start introducing some components of the training that is appropriate for the shorter format of the game And we've seen that happen before Is that during the test series they may start doing some more high speed running efforts As additional training during the test series To ensure that they're adequately prepared and protected For what they're about to to subject their bodies to uh post that in the shorter forms of the game because it's a completely different Work scenario for those players. So I think that's that's really important and that's the job, you know For the s and c's to look at you know, this is this whole idea of mapping ahead and seeing what's coming up Are they adequately prepared? Are they meeting the numbers, you know in in test cricket? Let's say for example, he sprints that Uh, you know, it's high sprint efforts in this test in the last two years would say 28 kilometers an hour As long as he's meeting that for the that he's okay for test cricket But if he's higher speed efforts in c20 cricket and odi cricket is 34 kilometers an hour He's not prepared He's six kilometers down on preparation. So the potential for injury is still there So until he meets those criteria, so that's what you'll work on those During the current series of the test series in order to be prepared for those new demands on the physical body Um in the series after that Just just one more thing john, I I heard shoy bakhtar saying right now and this is a great time for cricket content By the way, everyone's on social media and is chatting and you know people like us who were dying for Courts and stuff coming in now. We've got like so many of them. We we can easily pick and choose. Okay. No today We're gonna play this we're gonna play that so shoy bakhtar said in an interview with sanjay manjrika. He said listen I don't enjoy Uh fast bowlers of today Because at my time I used to come in try to bowl a fastball every single delivery as a result of that I've got bad shoulders. I've got bad these I've got bad backs and nowadays Bowlers are being a little more cautious is what he said So like hard dick said right now Like if there's six deliveries, then a couple of slower deliveries will come in as well So that the ease on the body is a lot more. Where do you stand on this from your from your point of view, uh, would you would you say like, uh, Are you fine with that that the bowler is not going in a hundred percent because that's his job Of wrecking his job body in the format of the game. I I think it depends on the format. I mean t20 you probably can't You can't use that analogy because it's it's um, or you can't use that example because You have to be creative in t20 cricket if you come in and bowl 150 k's an hour every single ball in t20 you'll get pumped So variety is it's different in forms of game But if you're out and out fast bowler and you're playing test cricket Your job is to bowl as fast as possible for as many balls as possible because that's what you've employed to do So again, you talked to guys like stephen jones Um, who are, you know, the best guys in the world are preparing fast bowlers to bowl fast They will tell you exactly how to prepare a guy to do that exact job Because there are specific routines in order to do that because the end of the day particularly in in test cricket That is your job if you're picked to bowl 150 plus and you come in and bowl You know three or four balls at 150 the next three or four balls at you know 135 That's not your job. There's a hundred other bowlers think about 135 So your job That's the job description. So you need to be prepared To adequately perform your job description Your job description in t20 is very different. Your job description in t20 requires you to bowl slower balls Yorkers be smart bounce, you know, slow ball bounces, whatever it may be But your job description in in in test cricket for a traditional fast bowler upfront The irrespective of the wicked Is to come in and bowl fast and you need to be prepared to do that mitch johnson. I think was probably I think he did a brilliantly in that asher series in australia where he just kept coming back and coming back His first spell would be 150 His last spell of the day after 20 over the day hits to be bowling 150 But that was built around a very new training program and a new nutrition program everything that he put into place in order to do that And if that's what your job is then you are have going to have to be very disciplined in other areas of your lifestyle And the way you prepare and take advice from the best people in the business In order to get your body to do it and that's it simple Also, I I think you've got to take uh, you know comments by hartik pandya and a few others maybe In these times with a with a pinch of salt. I say that because uh, while, you know, they do talk about Uh, their fitness and the issues that will happen on their fitness because of bowling fast You also got to realize a lot of them have made up their mind that test cricket probably is not to go to format for them And and a lot of players are now falling in that category where you know They'd rather play the shorter formats than then play the test cricket So everything is then built around this narrative where where you may hear a lot of fast bowlers I'll give you another example of Mohammed from pakistan, you know at such a young age has already decided that So the whole narrative is built around fitness But you also realize that that in their head they've realized that you know The glamour the money and everything belongs in the shorter format So so you build a narrative whereby you say that, you know, it's physically not possible for me to perform In all formats and then try and play the format where you get the most out of Yeah, and you know, and in this context you're talking about hartik pandya the The all-rounder as well, you know, because he's also got a very You know unique batting capability to fall back on as well. And he's a gun-filter. So He's not an out-and-out fast bowler. I would say his fast bowling is a value addition Rather than being his primary skill set. So, you know, I believe he's probably as good a batsman as he is a bowler So so his his his example is It's slightly different. So, you know, I don't know a show back there or shone tapes or bret lee or Or varanaran, for example, who's still probably in India's fastest bowler Their job in the longer forms of the game is to run in a ball flat out, you know And but hartik pandya are also to think well, that's one of my jobs But I've also got a friend up in bat potentially for, you know, two or three hours As a as a middle-order batsman and do a do a good job there as well So his skill sets are sort of spread over two or three areas which which he needs to focus on and For you to focus 100% on being an absolute out-and-out fast bowler is almost all consuming And then have to then be, you know, and that's why I take my hand as to someone like Jacques Callas Jacques Callas for the majority of his career bowl 140 plus Open the bowling battered three, you know, 14,000 runs and 300 and something Unbelievable and we look back on that and think well hang on that was almost super human Given how hard, you know, it is now to front up every down ball 140 plus with a with a new ball in your hand, so Yeah, I think he's an exception And, you know, it's hard to come in the Jacques Callas mould yet. No, you know, not yet And he's still going to prove himself not just from a numbers perspective, but a but a, you know, longevity perspective But but I think that it's a it's a damn hard job to bowl fast And and if you try to do that plus two or three other things as well, it's even harder. So That's what I'm saying. You need the right advice from the right people Built from the ground up With those people understanding your body type and training you specifically for your body type only that's it John then would I would I be right in saying or would I be jumping the gun and saying that we've seen The back of the express all quality quicks because if you're a quality quick You're playing pretty much all three formats If you're playing all three formats, can you be can you afford to be that express quick like a show about the Or a bretley used to be in today's time? Yeah, I think sadly I think you're right Because I think if you're an express quick, that's pretty much all you can do Like I said either that you then go to adapt and and spend a lot of time developing skill sets for the shorter forms of the game Which is slow balls Slowball you bounces, you know all the other things just taking away from your core skill And like I said to stay bowling at 150 plus Takes a lot of not just physical effort, but mental effort as well And and you have to train very very differently for that you know One of the things I would suggest that at some point if you get the opportunity to talk to somebody who really does Know the fast bowler inside out and how to prepare them Particularly for the different formats of the game now and the demands of formats in the game You know someone like Stefan would be great value to you guys to sort of understand that That at some level we can there are two or three individuals in the world quicker who can still adapt But i'm not sure that all of them can because again physically to transfer from one format And the numbers like I said the GPS numbers tell us how hard it is to move over Format because the demands are so different So you're going from almost completely different energy system that you're using in t20 To test cricket. So you need to look therefore at how you're fueling these guys So your energy systems change your fueling mechanisms change They determine performance. They determine recovery. They determine inflammation. They determine Injury so Even right down to what these guys are being fueled will determine how fast they bowl So there's so many sort of areas that now need to be covered specifically to bowl fast That if you're then You know one week playing t20 and doing that and then two weeks later playing test cricket and bowling 150 for 20 overs It's almost it's very very difficult to do If I could yeah, yeah jamie after you go ahead I just had one sort of slightly broader question John you've you've been involved with cricketers and athletes from this part of the world for a long time And you would have seen the change and it's it's a lot of it is is down to the hard work By good men like you and your and your peers How how have you seen the culture of fitness change with regards to to indian cricketers and south asian cricketers And to what to what extent has the ipl had an impact on this because of the like you mentioned the intensity of the t20 game The pressure of the of the leagues and as well as mingling with athletes and cricketers from from different cultures So just one more thing if I could add that if you if you let go of them How quickly do this fall back on old habits? i.e. do you have a lens on them all 12 months then? Ideally yeah because you've got to show you've got to prove to them that if you don't Continue on this process then the catch-up is so much harder to get back to where you were and what the expectation is from the team And your teammates and the and the management It's so much harder to catch up again You get left behind too quickly and and the risk of injury is too high So so there's incentive enough to stay involved at some level throughout You know throughout the year hence our involvement But yeah that you know for me The most pleasing thing for me is to see where indian cricket's gone Um or all sport actually has gone in terms of fitness and the emphasis is placed on it's now non-negotiable If you want to compete with the best in the world Then you've got to compete with them across every single parameter not just skills No one can compete with the sub continent flies on skill. We've known that technically we saw that in indian hockey The indian hockey story is a classic story when it was purely a skilled based game played on grass Where the speed was much slower And fitness wasn't such a big issue They dominated world hockey for 50 years gold medals olympic gold medals watch and whatever as soon as they moved hockey Astro turf and the speed doubled Indian hockey fell by the wayside because it didn't become a skill game anymore It became a fitness game and a speed game And what fitness means means that you when you're fitter than the opposition you give yourself the most In crucial ingredient in sport, which is time Time to deliver your skill So you don't need to be the most efficient skill And technical player in the world if you've got time then you've got time to execute your skills So same thing in cricket and one thing that I always said to the players was you guys are so good But you will never be consistently good If you don't if we don't work on the fitness side because all are holding you back at the moment and why we're not Consistently winning and staying at the top is purely because of the because of the fitness side And it's and it's no coincidence that indio over the last three or four years Are one of the fittest sides in the world and we've seen that reflected in their performance across all formats of the game So it's very pleasing to see that but it takes two or three people to stand up put their hand up and say This is how it's got to be done Okay, come hell or high water. This is how it's going to be done And you've got to see the results the results are there. So now that we see we've seen the results There's even more incentives for it to play out and and and therefore it makes my job a lot easier Because I've got something to fall back on and say well, if you don't, you know, the chances of competing now Are so much less. You just can't compete on the on this stage, particularly in ip l the speed the intensity Um, and and you can't hide there's nowhere to hide in ip l anymore No, we're hiding world cricket anymore And that's not just because of the cameras that are on you you can't hide From the ball, you know So so I think there's incentive enough for these guys to to embrace it from a much earlier age And that's why we're trying to drill down into the association level and say well This is where it's got to start from and even below that even getting into the sports education level and saying well Unless we start skilling these kids at this level with these skill sets It's very difficult for them to be able to compete once they're at the elite level On on the fitness front that is so I think it's almost uh We've got to look at them through the entire pyramid now and start drilling further back down that pyramid capturing them younger Giving them the basic skills to succeed and then letting them go from there But it's going to take it's still going to take a lot of work But we're certainly seeing, you know, significant changes over, you know, the last 15 years that I've been in India So so John, I'm actually going to take you back to the fast bowlers because I had a follow-up on that because you were talking about, you know When Arjun spoke about, uh, you know fast bowlers not being able to play a lot of formats And I want to talk particularly about two wards that you have at Rajasthan Royals Mainly because you know, we are now facing a scenario where let's say for example, West Indies is going to England You already have two teams, you know, you'll have to name a backup 11 Which need to be ready in case there's something comes up Also, you may have a scenario where you're playing multiple series T20 tests All I'm saying is that you'll have to increase your pool of bowlers and India may be looking to do that Now now my question is regard to the two wards that you have at Rajasthan Royals one in jade would not cut Highest wicket taker in Ranji Trophy the other Who's been on and off in the Indian team? But you know hampered because of the injury you mentioned him probably the quickest that we have in India in Varunaran now In case an opportunity opens up which seems like because with multiple scots Do you think these two guys seeing them in terms of their fitness in terms of their skill level that you've seen are Are ready to take that next step or or return back to the Indian team. What have you made of that? Yeah, I think we've been we're enormously blessed to have both those and not just as players but as people as well They're both two wonderful people and and you've also got to look at what they bring to a dressing room environment other than their cricket skill set So they tick all the boxes on that side I still believe that Varunaran I still believe he's probably the quickest player and bowler in the country when he's when he switched on We saw that in the last few games of the IPL last year. He's still got enormous amounts of skill And and and has a work ethic that is as good as anybody I've seen and to bounce back from Six or whatever how many number stress fractures he's had to be where he is today and still bowling at 150 plus is unbelievable So for sheer effort He should be rewarded The other one for sheer skill and sheer effort throughout a grueling Rangy trophy season and I and I still think anybody who can take 68 wickers order was in a grand rangy trophies Season as a seam bowler on particularly on a raj in a wicket like rajkot Needs to be rewarded as well. So There are two guys in that setup that I I believe have much to offer Indian cricket at the international level And then if you look at the next layer down from them, you still got guys like, you know Uncle Raj puts them cut the you know, this new cut the tiagi Akash Singh These are super impressive kids super super impressive. So I think What what you'll see with Indian team is yes, you'll see them take a core squad And then then another squad like you said both will be playing or training together And there will be a lot more bench swapping And that's just because of the way that the game is going to be played now and also because We haven't had and won't have the periods The of trans these transition periods that we would ideally love to have them fully prepared So just to minimize injury risk. I think we're going to have to go with much larger squads And you know, they would definitely be two names like you mentioned JD and baron hour and will be two Two names which would be very high on the list of those guys to be in and around that squad And then, you know, there's an opportunity now for some of these young kids to put their hand up and say look We're ready as well John before that part of our job. That's part of our job is to ensure So I go into every one of these and think that potentially these guys could be playing In in wherever for India in the near future So that's part of our sort of preparation psyche as well for these guys at all times because I believe that anybody in our team That writes done wrong. It's some point or another still has the skills that to play for their country John final question before we let you go Uh, um, where do you stand because if you talk about the Indian team or fleet Like you mentioned the team the fitness levels have gone to another level And and part of that has been the clean and snatch phenomenon, which I like calling A lot of the Indian players like doing a lot of clean and snatch workouts and keeping in mind that you're at home Uh, would you have advised people to do clean and snatch given that if form is not right? Then it has a direct impact on the back and if there is no one to of course, you know monitor that Uh, would you would you reckon that people should not have been doing those exercises when you stand on the clean and snatch? Given the amount of load it has on the back As far as work, um, I agree with you I think there's a lot of risk involved particularly if it's unsupervised and particularly if those players Haven't come from a history of lifting. Yeah So there's a lot of danger in lifting that way And uh, you need to be very careful. Plus you also need to have the body type To suit it Not everybody has a body type and there are plenty of fastballers out there I know who should not be doing that type of lifting Absolutely not Because they do not have the body type for it Particularly what we call the the tendon driven athlete the heavier load Those those sort of tendon driven bowlers the explosive springy type bowlers with weight The slower they're going to bowl because you're dampening their shock absorbers Okay, so it's all about neurotyping and looking at their neurotypes and and and again this has to be looked at so Every single fast bowler has to be given an individualized program specific for their body type Okay, and there's yeah, and and I would say At least 50% of those probably Maybe notice maybe 40 50% of those Don't have the body type suited To be doing that type of lifting and in the long term will end up they will end up bowling slower And have a greater risk of injury particularly to the lower back. Um, because you got to think about loading It's all about loading they go out and bowl and bowl and bowl and then suddenly they they break down while bowling Okay with a stress rate. So we blame the bowling Okay, it's a bit like, you know, it's a bit like a guy, you know having a heart attack while eating a pizza We don't blame that one pizza through heart attack We blame the thousands of pizzas and cokes and whatever he had before Same as the fast bowler. It's not that action of bowling. He's been doing that for 20 years Why would he suddenly break down because of that? It's often not that it's the other things that are loading his skeletal system There's led to that straw breaking the camel's back while he's bowling And this is where this loading outside of competition needs to be looked at It's what we call cumulative loading on the skeletal system And patrick fahad and myself and a few others are very very particular about this and very big on this Because it's that cumulative loading that we're often not aware of outside of their controlled system Which which is bowling on the field and in the net That is often undoing These fast bowlers in court and is it the root cause of a lot of their skeletal injury? So that needs to be looked at a much much closer And so I think that if there's anything that we'd be looking a lot more out over the next couple of years It would be training specific to the individual's body type But then john john, how do you handle that situation because say uh, even patrick or you are saying look the s and c Uh, there is there's an s and c department as well Which is possibly saying look clean and snatch is good You should go for it. But then you're saying look, maybe if you're in a body's not ready for it And you've not tuned your body from a very early age for it. It's not happening. So then that conflict or sort happens Yeah, and that's always going to be the difficult thing I fortunately work in a in an environment of rose thumb roles where There's a great relationship of myself and stephen jones. Who's the head of Our fast bowling preparation and s and c and then null augustine who's who's our other head of s and c Um, so who are all very very switched on about this stuff, you know They've both got degrees in biomechanics and sports science and You know, we've even got a physio degree actually. So, you know, we're very aware that that um These situations need to be assessed individually. So we're all on the same page, but In some circumstances, you're always going to have opposition to that Because of the way that a certain trainer has been trained But you've just got to go back and look at the history of the individual And that will tell you more about how to train them than anything Okay, so if something's already working if they're already bowling if a Joffre archer is already bowling 155 k's an hour or shawntates already bowling 160 k's an hour And he's never done weights in his life Ever Why would you suddenly start loading him up with weight? Yeah, particularly non With someone like joffre who's what we call a tendon driven athlete And he would actually bowl slower as a result of that type of heavy lifting Shawntate said exactly the same thing to me when he first came He said the only time he ever got injured Was when he was asked to go in and start lifting heavy weights. He'd never lifted a weight in his life It is bowling 161 k's an hour He was then made to go and work out heavy weights in the gym and from that point on he said john I only I kept getting injured You just have to look at the history of that individual and the way they've trained previously Map that against the the bowling performances and stick to that plan Anything else guys before before we let john go Well, nothing the other thing you do Probably shawnt didn't get enough or we worked a lot with him and crick in for was good indian prawn curries You know that was the fuel that he needed As long as you again, you know the thing about shawnt is not only did he bowl 160 k's an hour Sean gave so much off the field You know, he's the guy that you would have in the team even if he couldn't bowl Because of what he brings to the dugout and that is The best thing about shawnt was what he brought to the dugout If he wasn't playing he was still an enormous asset to the energy of that team And that's a huge part of selection in the modern day You know in the modern game is that it's not just about how good you are with your skill set It's what else can you bring that's going to add value to that team? And uh, you know, particularly in in in terms of positive energy. So, uh, Yeah, I'm a big big fan of shawnt's height Not just because he could bowl 160 and knock people's heads off But because he uh, but because he was just an all-round nice bloke John just just one final thing is come to my mind right now because we've seen so many injuries to our fast bowlers There's just free to picked up an injury Uh, sometime back a few months back. There's of course hard day We spoke about this both next week mar who's been picking up injuries for a long time now consistently Now when you see that from the outside How do you term it do you term it as a systemic failure? That you know, certain departments didn't come on board and that's where it happened or is it the individual failure? That you know, just recurring over and over again Look, I think it's very hard to comment on that because I don't know Their training protocols. I don't know their loads. I don't know their I don't know their blood parameters. I don't know their nutrition profiles. I don't know their Uh, phq nine testing protocols profiles, you know, their mental health profile, you know, so many factors that factor into injury You know, even things like dressing room environments factor into injury, you know negative dressing room environments show higher Show higher injury rates, you know, so there's so many other determining factors around what injures a fast bowler But if it's consistent across number of fast bowlers within the same system And at some point someone's going to put that put up their hand and say, okay, let's go back and look at the system And i'm not saying there's faults in the individuals within that system. It may just be in the system itself And and it could be in something as simple as the communication The reporting, you know, the reporting structure within that system. Is that functioning efficiently? Is the right messaging getting through To the coach from the s and c staff or the physio staff about what they should be doing in the nets or not You know, does the physio know exactly like I said before what the s and c is doing with them in the gym In terms of loading Does the coach know about that, you know, so you know, so it could be a system failure It could be an individual failure But given that i'm not on the inside and and i'm you know, but i've worked in enough systems to know that If something is consistently going wrong, you need to ask questions And uh, and yeah, so I think that you know, all of us Uh worry when we see You know repetitions of the same injury that that worries me more than anything um Because ideally you don't want to see the same injury being repeated So you then need to go back and look at, you know, have I actually made the diagnosis correct in the first place? Have I um, you know ticked every box in their history? Have I made the right assessments around a return to sport criteria? So there are a number of things that you need to be questioning yourself about as well and and the worst thing that I you know that I've always Experienced as a sports video is that is it when they go back and they re-injure again? That's a that potentially the failure on my side because I obviously haven't ticked all the but look injuries could happen and they can happen Through freak circumstances, but if it's the same injury Then maybe I didn't tick every box or because of the pressures of the game and you know all the things that come on now Maybe there were you know, I didn't take advantage of the fact that that I needed to reassess and re-evaluate something a little closer, but um, that's a really tough question um, but We need to then look at you know playing formats Um, how quickly they're transitioning from one playing format to another like I said are they prepared adequately to go from test? We get straight into t20 cricket or vice versa. So and it's very difficult to do that as a as a support staff group So there's always a risk So then you need to sit down in the management and start talking about how you then map the fdp You know and say well, it's impossible for us to play five t20s then go straight the week later into a test series That's asking way too much of these players So maybe we need to have a closer relationship with the governing body And just say look we need to start mapping the fdp a little bit better in order to protect our players a little bit better as well So I think there's a whole You know, it's a huge scenario here that we need to look at um, and it's not going to be solved by just you know Founding out one individual or one specific system I think we need to map it both from the bottom down From the bottom up and the top down and see where we find see what we find in the middle Uh guys anything else? Oh nothing the the best absolutely fascinating. Yeah learning has been to the You know beneath that formal top polo t-shirt that uh, jimmy is wearing is wearing shorts. That's been the The great learning The other one is what what what john said right at the start never let a good crisis go waste You know that yeah something i'm going to remember Absolutely John thank you so much for your time and uh Really enjoyed it but feeling feeling a lot fitter after this conversation at least 35 years they didn't have to say much for this 40 minute conversation made me feel a lot fitter Thank you so much and clean I really appreciate it. I was having a great time guys. I really appreciate it and good good conversation. Thank you. Thank you Thank you guys. Yeah