 First of all we have roll call Excuse here, excuse I think he's excused to yes. Yeah Okay Quorum is present We'll have pledge allegiance We have a motion on the minutes from last week, they're just very very fresh It's okay, it's been moved and seconded to approve the minutes of February 25th any discussion, okay all in favor Anybody opposed? Minutes are approved. I want to thank everyone for coming tonight It seems as if we are gathering here more and more often with committee the whole I just came from Sue Richard's office And she has a whole stack of stuff. That's in a committee of the whole file Which I will look at and take a you know look at and see what we need to address I'm hoping that some of these things can be filed because some of them are quite old and I haven't heard any Discussion about them. So this may be one of our last meetings. I hope Tonight we have a distinguished guest from the county committee Sheboyin County Administrator Adam Payne is here and he's going to present his Viewpoint or his points on the proposed point five percent sales tax Adam has been working with the Sheboyin County as Administrator since January 1999 and he manages Administrator's 22 county departments with nearly a thousand employees He is has a Bachelor of Arts at a master's degree from UW of Madison And we also want to extend our condolences to Mr. Payne because he lost his grandmother this past weekend and Buried her today and so you have our sympathies and I'm sure this must be a Sad day for you and your family. So we appreciate you coming and Everything's ready. I guess with the slide presentation or the the PowerPoint presentation. So Adam, would you like to come up, please? Welcome to the chambers. I appreciate this opportunity Might adjust the mic Thank you, I was hoping we'd have more members of the of the public here this evening because I I know they certainly follow city issues very carefully and and I thought we might have more people here we have a Future County Board supervisor in the back of the room So it's nice to see him here and I appreciate that this is televised So obviously one of the objectives here is to help raise awareness in the community about the challenges that Sheboyin County Government faces. So again, thank you for this opportunity. We have a tremendous TV audience. I just want you to know As does the County Board Well, thank you. I Have as you can see a PowerPoint Presentation to go through and my assistant Kayla Renz is in the front and Kay is just fantastic So if I don't have the answers, I'm sure Kay will she's done a real nice job Helping me make these presentations throughout the Sheboyin County or we're actually we're gonna do about 12 I think we have three three more two more after today 12 public forums were essentially sharing the challenges Sheboyin County that all of us face and Let's just go to next slide, please. I Want to talk a little bit about fiscal responsibility property tax relief maintaining quality programs and services and Economic development that those are really the four key prongs of the of the stool or chair that I want to discuss and I also want to say just on the onset that if anybody in this room or anyone on our viewing audience thinks that I'm enjoying or Relishing the opportunity to encourage the County Board or recommending to the County Board to implement a half percent sales tax It couldn't be farther from the truth The last few months have been one of the more challenging and and and certainly not so fun Experiences of my 11-year career here. We should boy in County. We've been we've been working so hard as a county organization To streamline and and and avoid Needing to implement a half percent sales tax. So I just want to be clear on that I don't want nor does I think anyone in this community want a half percent sales tax or any tax Increased, but if we're going to be fiscally responsible if we're going to maintain quality programs and services If we're going to lead by example We're going to have to pay the bills and so that's why we're at a point where we need to consider it So I'm going to talk a little bit about where we've been What's the track record of Sheboygan County? Why are we in this situation and? Just how does the sales tax work? What's at stake next slide, please? here's a high-end report card if you will that we often share with the County Board and you'll note back in 1998 Where's the little here we go? 1998 1999 If you look at this line here the County Board passed two consecutive year Increases in the property tax levy of 15 percent 15% increases in 1998 1999 and when I interviewed with the executive committee prior to well, I started in January of 1999 and the Budget had already been adopted one of the things they asked was how are we gonna get a handle on this? We can't continue to pass on these kinds of increases and frankly I was amazed to see those kind of increases in property taxes. I'm not going to defend it I wasn't there at the time But obviously the County Board passed two consecutive increases being as green as green could be as a county administrator or administrative coordinator at the time I didn't necessarily have the answer on how we were going to stop that from happening But what we've done is really worked as a team as a collaborative team where the County Board adopts a goal they they establish a goal for what kind of increase they want and then all the departments receive a specific target and Then I work with all those departments to make sure those department heads produce a budget that hits that target Positioning the County Board for success and early on what we did is we focused on the rate and you'll see in 2000 right away we our goal that year was to maintain the rate not increase it in 2001 our goal was the same and it went to the final meeting of the County Board in November of 2001 in and they Ended up increasing it for Health and Human Service programs. They're prerogative. I Was a little disappointed frankly, but that's what they did after that We started reducing it and we got to 2003 2004 and we said to ourselves or the County Board said you know what we shouldn't be focusing on the tax rate What we should be focusing on is the levy because those are the dollars that everyone's relying on so starting in 2004 That's exactly what we did and you can see each year We continue to reduce the property tax levy and ultimately deliver three consecutive years of property tax relief now Elected officials at all levels like to talk about holding the line on taxes at any level and Those of us in this room or on the County Board may talk about reducing or holding the line of property taxes The County Board has done it and in fact Sheboygan County is the only county of all 72 in the state that have delivered three Consecutive years of property tax relief. I'm proud of that track record. That's a track record. I'd like to see us continue Because we certainly hear how high property taxes are in this state and the state Legislature likes to point the finger at local government about property taxes and constituents certainly don't like to pay their property taxes It's one of the most despised forms of tax pay taxpayer financing there is so I'd like to keep that track record going so big picture We've made progress nine straight years of reducing our property tax rate three straight years of reducing our property tax levy and the other thing I wanted to point out is in 2010 our Wage and benefit costs are less today than they were in 2002 That didn't just magically happen that happened due to a lot of hard work That's certainly you're doing at the city level and the County Board has done at the county level Tough decisions when you reduce staffing levels, but we've done it and a big chunk of that was privatizing Sonny Ridge But our staffing costs are less today than they were in 2002 next slide, please What have we done? What are some of the things we've done? One of the parts of this process that hasn't been very pleasurable the last couple of few months as you get people that come out of The woodwork and suggest well, you haven't been doing anything Obviously you need to start cutting or consolidating or streamlining. What have you been doing? Well, you never get that at the city No, well and so what have we done the county board has done a number of things We've consolidated or streamlined actually consolidated register and probate with a clerk of courts comprehensive health care center with rocky No payroll with information systems printing with information systems. We privatize Sonny Ridge We consolidated UW Shabuagan with UW UW extension with UW Shabuagan property listing with the treasurer land and water was Coal located with planning and our aging and disability resource center that was in a lease facility here in the city Shabuagan is now in a owned county owned building in Shabuagan Falls and in many of these instances We heard some profound negative feedback as you know in this room back in the early 2001 2002 people did not want to see comprehensive closed That's that was a main facility in this community for decades and my great-grandmother in fact Died at comprehensive health care center a lot of roots there and that was very emotionally charged issue Ultimately the county board closed the facility add in addition to rocky. No, they have a better facility more cost-effective privatizing Sonny Ridge My grandmother Toggy who just passed away was not real pleased when the county made the decision to privatize Sonny Ridge And let and she let me know it Tough tough decision by the county board, but ultimately led to Significant taxpayer savings and the sky did not fall it continues to be run as a nursing home next slide, please Staff changings I mentioned that earlier less today than back in 2002. We had a 1300 for 1349 employees no three we've reduced that a little over 28% And you can see the initial cost savings associated with that. We've also done a lot of things with you There's been a great emphasis on sharing resources as you know And I appreciate the leadership of many of you in this room who have been striving for that one is our shared purchasing agent We now as you know, we're sharing Bernie Romer or purchasing agent and that saved money for both us and you because you didn't have to fill Fully fill a position and we are now splitting those costs So that's been I think very beneficial and Continues I hope to bring up new thoughts on other things that we can do next slide, please We established an in-health clinic in Sheboygan County We're one of the few counties in the state if not the nation that has their own in-health clinic We have a nurse practitioner that serves our employees and that saves both the employees money and taxpayers money And we certainly as you know invite the city of Sheboygan to join us in that effort the school district I think it's something that we need to be striving for so far so good county wellness program We've got that going as many people do I know the city of Sheboygan does and certainly it all helps We've made considerable health insurance plan design changes. I know you've done the same here. That's an ongoing discussion next slide, please We completed two rounds of a program evaluation and prioritization process Quite a mouthful But I'll tell you I take a lot of pride in the fact that the board took the time to do this We looked at every single program and service that Sheboygan County provides every single one when I started in 1999 I didn't know we had 207 programs and services I didn't know how many were mandatory how many were discretionary the county board in 2005 the chairs of all ten standing committees met for over a six-month period and Looked at every single program and service. We have reviewed them ranked them prioritize them Tremendous accomplishment again a lot of people at a lot of levels of government talk about establishing priorities But if you take the time to really do the homework so they have a they have that opportunity To make it happen We've also done a number of operational studies We've had outside consultants come in and look at departments like health care centers health and human services the sheriff's department Highway and child support why because sometimes when you're part of an institution If you're the department head for years and years lord knows they're very knowledgeable experience But maybe they're not looking at things a little you know quite as creatively or maybe you know We've always done it that way so we brought in some outside Folks to give us some suggestions and in all cases it led to administrative efficiencies ideas for improvement We then went through another round of our program evaluation and prioritization process We did it again in 2009 focusing on the discretionary programs again if anybody wants some late-night reading It's all on our website So if any one of the community wants to look at this and learn more about it Or is ever thinking of running for county board great opportunity to learn about the programs and services we provide Is it a magic bullet? Is it suddenly going to help us reduce property taxes? No, but it is a tool the county board can use the tool that any unit of government can use in my opinion to help Them make tough decisions about allocating resources next slide, please As part of our budget process and the budget instructions we provide every year We always ask the department heads and the liaison committees to refer to the priority ranking Now some utilize it more than others Certainly, but I think as resources are growing tighter and as we start talking about things like a half percent sales tax I don't think it's been used to the extent. It should and If they don't implement a half percent sales tax, we're not going to be starting from scratch They're going to have a resource they can go to it's their priorities. It's not mine not their staff It's the county boards. All right, then tell me what you want to cut or reduce. You've got a wonderful place to start The county board last year implemented a hiring freeze Although I consider it and it is a soft hiring freeze because if it's a dispatch officer Or a deputy or a nurse at Rocky know a position that has to be filled. It's filled, but we are reviewing all our positions and holding Positions open that don't necessarily have to be filled. We had targeted expenditure reductions for every department I think you did the same thing here and that was very helpful for us It was just a 1% reduction for every department last year and most of them hit the mark Some didn't some didn't and we're always as you are soliciting employee and citizen suggestions And I comment about that and it always makes me grin because we all know in this room that far more often than not We hear from people who want more services or better services or have concerns and wanted improved But we rarely hear from citizens on specific suggestions on what programs to cut Reduce eliminate it would be nice to hear more of that, but we don't next slide please The county board in 2003 Implemented a self-imposed bonding limitation. They were borrowing prior to that about 6.2 million dollars a year every year borrowing 6.2 Now they at in 2003 they said we're not going to borrow any more than 4 million a year or 8 million over two years They didn't have to do that self-imposed and it's worked beautifully since then we have not borrowed Bonded more than four a year or eight over two years And that has saved taxpayers over five and a half million dollars in interest alone Just because they put a self-imposed limitation and we utilize a five-year capital plan So we're planning ahead and thinking about what can we do what works what fits next slide please So there's a little snapshot of where we've been and I know you could give a similar snapshot here for the city You've done a lot to streamline consolidate. It's something we need to always be doing It doesn't just happen now or need to happen in the future It's an ongoing challenge to streamline to eliminate lesser priority programs to help fund higher priority programs So why are we talking about a half percent sales tax? It's predominantly because that the state mandates programs But does not provide sufficient revenue to implement them. This is what's happening the state creates the program and 72 counties are required to implement their state mandates Counties are the right arm of state government. So the state creates the program and Many of them if not all of them are good programs But they don't have the courage to fund them on the other hand They've got all these programs. They've created But we all know in this room not every program is created equal Some are more important than others have higher value than others perform better than others But the state does not have the courage to Eliminate lesser priority programs to help pay for fund higher priority programs So they don't have the courage to fund what they create They don't have the courage to eliminate lesser priority programs to fund higher priority programs. What do they do? They dump it on county government. They pass the buck and they say you figure it out and So for years, that's what's been going on in fact today all of us in this room and all of your constituents and everyone in Sheboygan County that's paying property taxes 75% of our property taxes are subsidizing funding state mandates 75% I don't know about you, but this gets my blood going a little bit People wonder why we're in the spot. We are What about the state's track record be nice to focus people focused in on that a little bit more wouldn't it? The state since 1995 has had a structural deficit I've been hearing it now almost 11 years in every single biennial budget. What do we hear from from the state? billion-dollar deficits Every single biennial budget biennial budget billion-dollar deficits since 1995. They'd they've had a structural deficit Wow, is that a track record to be proud of here's another one for you. Did you know that? The state per capita in debt is number one We lead the nation Per capita our debt in the state of Wisconsin is worse than any other state Isn't that something to be proud of There's a track record that folks most like to share with their constituents We don't hear enough about that though. Do we We hear the state suggest property taxes are too high and that we need caps in place because property taxes are too high But I think it's long overdue that the state get its own house in order And I resent them pointing the finger at us and passing the buck to us when they aren't taking care of their own Well to add insult to injury We do get some funding from the state We get something and there's something that people may be well aware of called state shared revenue You hear about state shared revenue and the in the news occasionally and on the radio Well, what state shared revenue will state shared revenue is something the the state provides counties local units of government to help Fund their mandates. It's been going down since the mid 1990s and I'll show you a slide on that in a moment the other thing that the that the state does is We do collect some revenue not just property taxes But we collect some revenue such as in our clerk of courts office Fines and forfeitures hopefully most of you in this room haven't had to have any interactions with our clerk of courts office But they do collect fines and forfeitures The state tells us how much we can collect and how much we have to pass on to them Let's go to the next slide, please Here's what's happening with state shared revenue since 1996 gone down 40 percent As far as I know wages haven't gone down 40 percent benefits haven't gone down 40 percent fuel hasn't gone down 40 percent I don't know if there's anything that's gone down 40 percent but there's state support Financial assistance has gone down next slide, please clerk of courts revenue 75% of your property taxes are subsidizing state mandates Well, let's just focus in on one department that you and I wouldn't have to spend a nickel on in property taxes if the state was just Fair was just reasonable look at the distribution of misdemeanor fine revenue the county share Back in 1987 was $30 The county share in 2009 is $30 The state share 1987 I use the same number was 149 and now they're at 206 They don't seem to have any problem tapping into more and more the revenue we're collecting next slide, please Well, what about traffic citation revenue? Maybe that's a little better. Maybe they're a little more generous there Well, let's look at 1987. We're at $40 there We actually had an increase from 30 to 40 from 1983 to 1987 But then we get to 2009 We went from 40 to 50 in 1988 to 42 50 in 2009. Look at the state share They don't have any problem tapping into it next slide, please This is the one that really I think is almost either have to laugh or cry and I'd rather laugh Ordinance revenue. This is what the county board passes their own ordinances State used to get $3 in 1977 and we got 53 50 Today we get 67 50 and the state gets 133 bucks. Look at the percentage increases over that time period This is what happens in the state's biennial budget. This isn't sexy enough to get anybody's attention Who cares about the clerk a court's office and collecting fines and forfeitures? Who's gonna get excited about that? What legislator is gonna give you more than two minutes of attention before their eyes begin to glaze over? yet look what's happening and Now you and I are all spending over seven hundred thousand dollars a year in Sheboygan County to subsidize Mandated programs and services in a situation where we could be paying for that department as we go next slide, please So I hope that gives you a little sense of where we've been some of the things we've done What's happening to us the situation we have with state mandates why now we're talking about diversifying a revenue stream What is it about this set half percent sales tax? How does it work? Well, the state established the half percent sales tax as an additional revenue source back in 1986 so this has been around for a while we didn't just come up with this idea Next slide, please and most of the states as I'm sure you're well aware in this room most of the states most the counties Have implemented it 63 of the 72 since 1986 One by one they've done so I think some may have come right out of the gate and implemented it as soon as the state Authorized it others have held off and others particularly our part of the state have really made a concerted effort I think to hold off and I know there's board members that take pride in that and frankly It's an ace up our sleeve got that half percent sales tax. She haven't used it yet. That's a you know, that's an ace up the sleeve Here who's here these are the folks to give you a snapshot of who have it and then there's a couple that have implemented Stadium tax or something like that So Washington Ozaki and Milwaukee have the half percent sales tax plus an additional point one to support the Milwaukee County Stadium Brown County has a half percent sales tax, but theirs is fully to support the Green Bay Packers Stadium But all the blue are the all the counties that have adopted and implemented a half percent sales tax next slide, please How does it work well food products medication medical equipment fuel electricity that's exempt It's just like the five percent. It's tacked on to the the state's five percent What's exempt from the five percent is exempt from the additional half I wish it was just a state five and a half percent since all the money is essentially going to support their mandates But it's it's treated just like the states five and what are impact examples I don't want to downplay and and I've you know heard some criticism for this Well, it all adds up and I know it adds up and I know anytime. We're talking about a tax It should be very thoughtfully discussed and and can be a burden for people But generally speaking and surveys have showed that the sales tax does not rile as many people up as the property tax And I think it's because they can control more. They're buying decisions They don't have to buy certain things and depending on their level of income. They may buy more or less So for renting a video Set of two bucks to be two bucks and a penny fish fry from 10 to 10 oh five What about a big screen TV? A lot of folks are buying big screen TVs now an $800 big screen TV would cost you 804 Now I've heard some people suggest if this half percent sales tax gets implemented. I'm not buying in Sheboygan County Really? So if you buy a big screen TV You're gonna drive and there aren't too many counties you can drive to but you can drive to another county to save four bucks As a practical matter, it's not worth your time. It's not worth the fuel a new car Will that change buying decisions? $25,000 vehicle would increase 125 bucks Yes, sir. Oh on that on the car. Yeah Yeah, because of the title if it's if it's a You know theoretically the best buy-and-matter to auction collect for the TV But the car dealer for sure because if it's titled in The address on the title is Sheboygan the car dealer is gonna have to collect it, right? and I know the cars of if you go buy a car somewhere else that And you don't have the sales tax in your county then they don't apply that but now you're saying they will my understanding is that the state and their the state Legislature close that loophole you if you want to call it a loophole Okay, so that that is not going to be an advantage now to go buy a car in Manitowoc okay, if this Okay, if this goes through and again my point is the 125 dollars is not small potatoes My sense is that's probably not going to change a buying decision on a $25,000 item next slide, please So I mentioned already County Say half percent sales tax goes to the states 5% piggybacked on how does it get implemented the county board passes in ordinance? Need to give notice to the Department of Revenue 120 days. It's it goes quarterly in the year and right now the University of Wisconsin extension estimates that we'd raise about nine million dollars if we implemented a sales tax and what I find attractive with this and I know there's difference differences of opinion, but tourists that come here the estimate is we'd we'd recoup about 1.8 million about 20 percent and They're spending that in those 63 other counties those communities are getting the benefit of that income to maintain their roads And help with law enforcement and things of that nature. Why shouldn't we do the same here? I? Mean every time we have a big event at whistling Straits or Road America. We generally have more law enforcement there and Tourists are certainly using our our roads and our infrastructure. Why shouldn't they help contribute to pay for it? Another question would be who would you rather have pay for it you? Your constituents your grandmother who doesn't have the income anymore and is struggling just to pay property taxes or tourists I Think that's an opportunity to just happen to some revenue and provide some property tax relief and Tourism and I think most people recognize this Recognize this now, but when we first raised this while how much tourism is going on here a tremendous amount of tourism is going on in Sheboygan County thanks to good work that the city is doing and all of us frankly I mean it's the private sector with whistling Straits and Kohler and Road America and we are now the second fastest tourism Fastest growing and tourism in the in the state right behind Saw County were ninth in the state were out of the 72 counties But we're the second fastest Pretty impressive next slide, please I touched on this Next slide, please What about tourists going elsewhere? We talked about going to another county will they go to another state? Will they not come to Wisconsin? Well the maximum sales tax for Wisconsin is 5.6 So I've read a couple of letters to the editor Well, what's what's to prevent the county board from raising it another half percent and going to six percent or six and a half percent? The county board can't it doesn't have the statutory authority to do that Statutorily we can only raise it a half percent and how does that compare to other states? Well, Michigan's at six I was at seven Minnesota's at seven point nine in Illinois at ten point three Wisconsin's maximum as I said is five point six people are not going to be leaving the state of Wisconsin because of a sales tax And again, this goes back to the point I made earlier about inputs and what we hear from people nobody likes taxes Nobody enjoys discussing the possibility of diversifying their revenue raising a tax, but people sure like their services And I personally think we've got some pretty nice services in Sheboygan County I think people appreciate the work that the health and human services That the health and human services department does I think people in this community want to take care of the mentally ill and the Developmentally disabled want to have law enforcement. That's effective and responsive people have come to expect their roads to be cleared Pretty quickly after a big snowfall It takes money to support that next slide, please I What does it mean for the average person and this is very simplistic of course? It'll vary greatly depending on your income and your buying decisions But if you just do the simple math if if we raise about eight point nine million Subtract the twenty percent that leaves seven point mil one million divide that by how many constituents We have throughout Sheboygan County. That means the average person per capita Would be paying sixty two dollars and a half percent sales tax Depending on your perspective. I've heard some people say to me. Well, that's one night out I've heard others say that'll really hurt me. That's significant Versus the property tax if we were going to raise eight point nine million dollars of additional revenue for the property tax This is what it would mean if you had a hundred and fifty thousand dollar home We'd raise your property taxes the county board would a hundred and fifty bucks 250 and a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar home about four hundred dollars and a four hundred thousand dollar home For a one for one apples to apples comparison next slide, please So fiscal outlook One is deductible and one isn't although that's changed as you know Jim Some years you can deduct one or the other, but it's predominantly the property tax and most people Because the property taxes larger do deduct that agreed and I've heard some people say well again It's property taxes deductible. Yes, but then what are you saying? You'd rather have your property taxes go up when there's so much push and emphasis on reducing property taxes Person Adam on the last slide. I don't mean to you want me to wait till the end Yeah, let me just shut up, and then we'll please I don't want to interrupt your flow No, but please don't forget your question. Oh, I won't this go out looking scenarios And I think I wrap this up in five minutes here This is this is a snapshot of our budget approach approach We look at what we think might happen weight wages benefits, you know health health insurance all the state Revenue we try to put that all in and project it out and usually you know that can be tough just to do for a year We've tried to do it ten years out So the farther you get out certainly the less reliable these figures are but we've tried to make them as Conservative as we can and we built that into our formula next slide, please What if we do nothing? What if we sit on our hands and just hope this all goes away? Well, we had a three million dollar Funding deficit in 2010 This year is done. This is our tax levy today 44 million we have a total of a hundred and forty million dollar budget forty four million is property tax levy and We had a three million dollar gap To contend with what the board chose to do Because of the economy they certainly didn't want to raise property taxes They weren't looking to reduce programs and services. They could have but they didn't at least not significantly So they used fund balance We have a healthy fund balance rainy day fund and they used a good a good portion of it but 1.7 million of that was associated with sunny Ridge and we're getting out of the business there and Essentially the rationale was it's raining Let's help some people get through this year use some of a rainy day fund and because it was very healthy They had that option and they implemented it all right So if we go forward with the projections that I just mentioned what kind of fund balance what kind of deficit are we looking at for? 2011 It's going to be in the three million dollar range But that's based on Wage and benefit increase wages at 3% in this scenario and actually we're not going to be looking for 3% increases We're going to be looking to hold the line or 2% increases certainly We need to do better and need help from our employees on that But I'd say it's going to be right around 3 million and There out it gets worse. So obviously we can see ahead of us. We got a problem And we need to do something to address it next slide, please well What if we just raise property taxes to the max people want to deduct those property taxes Jim? Well, we'll give them an opportunity So we could raise property taxes 15% Next year and the reason we could raise them that much though there are state caps in place Because we've been frugal the last three years We could take all that room and raise property taxes 15% and I'm sure people would really appreciate that of course I'm being I'm kidding. I can't imagine the county board raising property taxes 15% But they could they could do that that would that's their prerogative and if they did that We'd actually have a positive variance in 011 We'd go back to a 3% that's what the rest of these do is go back to a 3% thereafter We'd be okay for 2012 and then we start getting into trouble again So it would be in my opinion a short-term fix and obviously I just don't see anybody wanting to absorb that kind of increase next slide Please fund balance some people have said well you have this healthy fund balance use it well We did in 2010 we could do so again the county board self-imposed is to keep 5 to 10% of our general funds as a healthy fund balance We have about 10 million now at about 9% If we utilized our fund balance to address these deficits the next two years, we'd be okay at no 11 But then by 012 we'd be below our 5 to 10 percent threshold Our bond rating would go down and people could start referring to the Sheboygan County as the state of, Wisconsin Because we'd be in the tank Obviously, we don't want to utilize fund balance to and fund balance won't resolve the problem Could the board use a little fund balance and raise property taxes next year sure they could do a little of that But ultimately Fund that relying on fund balance is just going to get you in a world of hurt It shouldn't be used as you know as the norm next slide, please So we talked about the sales tax revenue what that could generate. This is what La Crosse is receiving 2008 about 9.8 million Marathon 10.7 Washington 9.4 we looked at their average increases decreases It's gone up about 2% each year over a five-year period That's going to go up and down depending on the economy next slide, please and Built that into our scenario and let me just cut to the chase. So what's the scenario if? The county board implements a half percent sales tax They're going to be voting on this March 16th The thought is the proposal is is that a minimum of $200,000 would go toward economic development job growth opportunities Revolving loan funds something like that the city has a more substantial revolving loan fund than the county But through the new county economic development corporation that we're all a part of we'd like to build some resources up there to Help get businesses going at one point. This was a million dollars, but the Finance committee reduced it to a $200,000 minimum doesn't mean it can't be more but no less than a million dollars would go to the highway department The highway department's been using retained earnings for seven years They've they know they've known for seven years. It was going to run out We have one more and either they need to make some significant program reductions Which they may choose to do or they need to fill that void and there's more on that That I'll talk about in a second fund remating deficit if we did nothing and filled all the other gaps It would be about 2.7 million dollars again Existing programs and services that would be if we do nothing in my opinion. That's not acceptable. We're gonna Certainly continue to streamline and consolidate and then a key part of this that I personally like is replacing our borrowing with the sales tax rather than borrowing four million a year using the sales tax and If we did that we could save Your constituents and all constituents county-wide over five million dollars in interest alone Now some folks have suggested well, you're not going to be debt-free in 2020 which is the proposal that's not going to happen and I say to that Try me Put the challenge out there shouldn't we all be striving to have less debt Shouldn't every unit of government be striving to have less debt. Why would you want your constituents paying interest if they don't have to? Will we be debt-free and perpetuity of probably not, you know If we have to build a 25 million dollar addition to our correctional facility or something like that We're gonna have to bond but if we can plan thoughtfully ahead and utilize sales tax revenue instead of bonding We could be debt-free and 10 years by 2020 and that is a challenge that I would love the county board to put out in front of us as a organization next slide if They don't implement the half percent sales tax and I've said this to the county board every month the last three months if you Don't want to do this That's your prerogative. This is not my decision. It's yours But if not tell me what you're gonna cut Tell me what programs and services you're gonna cut and I've gone to every liaison committee and had discussions with every board member and shared with Them what kind of reductions they would have to make to fill this void? And if every every county was going to be part of the solution if they were all treated Someone equally and they were all gonna have to take a percentage of the the levy that they use now and reduce their Expenses so much to fill that Deficit if they were all gonna we're gonna cut our way out of this The sheriff's department would be looking at about a 1.2 million dollar reduction The high health and human services department would be looking at about a 1.2 million dollar reduction The highway department about 327,000 in addition to the retained earnings Avoid that they're going to fill They're significant They're significant next life I'll leave you with one example That I often asked board members and people in the community who boy I don't want to see this half percent sales tax and You know, we need to make some cuts and we need to streamline and and I agree with them I don't want to see it either and yes, we need to cut and streamline But what about our infrastructure in this county our highway department maintains? 450 miles of roads. I don't know how many the city has I'm certain you have a 190 okay, well the county highway department is 450 and we have a lot more county roads than many counties around us Which puts us at a disadvantage from a financial standpoint. There's just more to care for Sometimes we're compared with other counties and they don't have half the roads we have to maintain But if you have 450 miles of county road the average lifespan of the surface is 15 years So that means we need to be doing about 30 miles per year to maintain our infrastructure Today because of the belt tightening and the reductions and fuel being twice as much as it was a few years ago Fuel oil because of the cut things we've had to absorb. We're doing somewhere between 10 and 14 miles We're doing half of what we should be Now you can get away get away with that for a little while and we have been But ultimately I ask you what would you rather do? pay a hundred thousand dollars a mile To do one mile of overlay Pay two hundred thousand dollars a mile to pulverize and repave because it hasn't been adequately maintained Or pay a million dollars a mile because the entire road needs to be rebuilt because the foundation is deteriorated so much What's more fiscally responsible? I've yet to hear anyone suggest we shouldn't be paying a hundred thousand dollars a mile to maintain But I also am not hearing a lot of enthusiasm for diversifying our revenue streams or Significantly cutting programs and services Next slide please So we're in this position today in large part because the state has not been fiscally responsible They've passed the buck to us We've dealt with it for years We'll continue to deal with it But I'll tell you what I'm not running for office I'm not as concerned about being politically popular What I think is we need to do what the state hasn't shown the courage to do We need to diversify our revenue streams and We need to cut reduce eliminate lesser priority programs to help fund higher priority programs I think the responsible thing is to do both But as you know, neither is popular and the county board right now is struggling with this and As it stands right now the finance committee voted three two to recommend it to the county board It then went to our executive committee our executive committee Recommended for one to file it and then it'll go back to the full board March 16th And I'm certain it'll be an interesting debate and my sense is that It may not go it may not go and if it doesn't I'll sleep all right For a while as long as the county board is giving guidance on what programs and services are going to be cut and reduced But if that doesn't come Then what What will keep me up at night? Will be the thought of Sheboygan County Starting to follow the path of the state of Wisconsin and the nation and what frankly, I think has so many people angry I do not want Sheboygan County to operate like that All right. Thank you Please well, thank you Adam You talked about a self-imposed borrowing cap of about four million a year We have a self-imposed borrowing cap also Since 2006 Our total debt was 72 million in 2006 We've dropped our total debt and that includes unfunded pension liability. We've dropped our total debt to 63 million What has your debt done during that past four or five years? Everyone hear the question The question is all the new powers Four years ago the city of Sheboygan had 72 million dollars of debt outstanding and that included 12.3 million of unfunded pension liability We've dropped that debt over those four years down to 63 million Okay, so we've had it. We've had a decline of almost nine million dollars in debt reduction And we have a self-imposed borrowing cap and my my question is and it's One of the best things you can do In reduction of debt is you reduce a recurring expense on that Can you paint the picture for us and for the listening audience? What has the has the debt of the county declined? Increased stayed the same over the last four years. Where are you? Good question Since the similar action you took the self-imposed limitation the county board took in 2003 That positioned us for now our debt service is actually going down every year So every year we are spending less on our debt service right now. We spend Memory serves about six million dollars six point four million dollars in total on our overall debt and our debt is right around 4045 million right in that range, but every year it is now it was going up prior to that now every year It's going down Can I ask a follow-up question? Is it is any percentage of the proposed sales tax money? Going to be going to directly reduce in property taxes. That's everybody hear the question And I asked is any percentage of the proposed sales tax going to go to a direct reduction of property taxes Well, that's all the time we have for It it depends on perspective Really by state law the half percent sales tax was put in place in 1986 by the state legislature so counties could Reduce property taxes take the pressure of property taxpayers and the taxpayers alliance and other folks have studied this since then and Some folks have the perspective that for every dollar you increase in the sales tax You should have a dollar reduction in the property tax That would be we don't have any more time. That yeah, that was that would be one way of looking at it And I wish I really wish we could implement a half percent sales tax 8.9 million dollars and reduce the property taxes 8.9 million dollars I wish it could be a one-for-one But the reality is and this is the same reality in the 63 other counties that have implemented this is The other way of describing property tax relief is taking pressure off the property tax payer So if you raise the half percent sales tax and have this other revenue stream coming in you aren't necessarily raising the property tax in fact Hopefully you're maintaining it for a number of years or reducing it somewhat for a few years But ultimately when you have the needs that I mentioned with with Infrastructure and maintaining programs and services a good portion of that sales tax will be to maintain those programs and services Now if the county board came along and said we are going to reduce 8.9 million dollars of programs and services We're going to reduce the sheriff's department by over a million in health and human services We're not going to do our road overlay. We're going to return them all the gravel roads You know if they made those kind of decisions, then I think you could have a one-for-one But the reality is a good portion of that revenue is needed to maintain the programs and services We have and the other reality is if we have that that revenue stream It does take pressure off the property tax payer. They are not shouldering all the burden alone Can I ask one more before Alder and Gisha gets the mic? Wow Just one more quick one Textbook wise sales taxes are perceived as regressive. It's a greater burden on Those in our county with lower incomes How have you been able to address that? That's a great question and the regressive argument comes up from time to time But studies have also shown now that the property task tax can also be considered a regressive tax and that's because many people in our community are elderly many of your constituents are elderly and Depending on their income the property tax can be a tremendously regressive tax for them They don't have they have little to no control over it they have to go in around the holidays and pay what can be a whopping bill and That can create situations where people may have to leave their home in fact I read a statistic at the United Way Board of Directors meeting the other day where we've had I think 504 closures in the last year now If we had a sales tax all the burden wouldn't been on those people paying their property tax They wouldn't have had as much burden on their shoulders. Does that mean those 500 people wouldn't have lost their home? No, probably not but The regressive argument. I think over time now has begun to weaken because Increasingly the property tax is becoming a real problem for people particularly Elderly people another example that came up actually from a department head a question was asked by that And she said my neighbor Struggling right now. She has four children and Her husband they're both out of work the church is helping them and they've changed their buying decisions Tremendously, you know, they're buying food Medication the basics things that are exempt from the sales tax by and large The one thing they can't change is their property tax bill and she said it's the property tax bill That may knock them out of their home So I hope that answers it. Thank you Thank You madam chair got several things for you Adam First of all are your employees being educated to the fact that the sales tax money is not going to be a pot of gold For future wage and benefit increases Are they being educated on that? Well, I yeah, I Guess I guess I worry that with all this additional sales tax money coming in where you're going to be able to slot this in various areas I'm worried that your your employees are going to think that This is a pot. This is a big pot of gold where we're going to be able to shoot for the sky and wage and benefit increases And I hope that's not going to be the case and if I could just follow up before you answer sure I understand that your sheriff's department went to arbitration and They won an arbitration Did did your bargaining team? Make the suggestion to the sheriff's department before they went to arbitration that Hypothetically if there if those if that arbitration award was going to amount to let's say hypothetically $400,000 in salary increases that you were you were considering laying off $400,000 worth of people if they got that arbitration award I was you know, I'm just a little bit disappointed in in In your your negotiations Okay, excellent excellent questions because that comment has come up a lot the last few months The reality is is Right now when we negotiate when the human resources committee and our HR director Mike collard when they negotiate with eight Our eight bargaining units as it stands right now They feel we have a pot of gold up our sleeve because we haven't implemented the half percent sales tax So you can argue it either way But what we're hearing right now is don't tell me you're out of money Don't tell me that you don't have any financial resources You haven't even implemented the half percent sales tax that the state authorized back in 1986 and 63 of 72 counties are already implementing so our employees have actually used that as an argument to strengthen their position that We're we're not hurting. We're not in bad economic or fiscal shape as a county So they've used that against us So those board members or people in the public who have suggested well if you implement this now all of a sudden You're rolling out a pot of gold form. I Say quite the contrary. I think if we implement it and we have specific earmarked uses as I went through with Eliminating our borrowing and plugging the hole at the highway department and and maintaining key programs and services They aren't going to be able to point to that anymore as a pot of gold but the key fundamental problem with county government and and Negotiating with our bargaining units and 89% of our employees are any bargaining unit And I want to say we have excellent excellent employees excellent employees who work very very hard When they negotiate with us it's done in good faith and You hope you come together on reasonable terms, and then the and if so then the county board Ultimately approves that if we don't come together it goes to a state binding arbitrator They're staying the state rules dictate that if we don't come to terms it goes to a state Arbitrator and what the state arbitrator does is they look at the two offers and say Sheboygan County's offer was well We're going to pay we'll give you a 1% increase or maybe we'll be even more aggressive and say we're going to hold the line No increase or as some people have suggested. We're going to reduce your salary 10% Whatever it may be we come in with our offer and the bargaining unit comes in and says well We want two and a half or we want three or we want four in the case of the sheriff's department What the binding arbitrator does then is they look at all the comparable? Municipalities or not all of them, but many of them they look at comparable Municipalities the binding arbitrator can't compromise Can't say well this is too high and this is too low They have to pick one or the other they will select the one that they deem Best reflects what other municipalities of a similar size have done and more often than not They're receiving two two and a half three percent increases. So until that's changed at the state level It's the reality that we're dealing with and though I wholeheartedly agree We need reform in that area and when the Republicans actually had leadership the majority Dan Lemieux who was a former county board chairman We he put in sponsored legislation. I went to Madison We talked about the changes that needed to be made so they would focus more on the economy and other things Didn't go anywhere The Democrats nor the Republicans supported it. So we have a situation right now where it is difficult to really Confirm on that the find the follow-up on your final point. Well, did we threat? To reduce staff That is a threat that the county board that that human resources committee can make but if you're gonna threaten a bargaining unit You better be able to back it up And if you're gonna threaten to reduce staff at the sheriff's department Hmm, I Don't know if that would play real well in this community depending on the number of employees You're you're suggesting be reduced imagine if we did that at Rocky Knoll and said well if you don't settle on this We're gonna reduce so many nurses and CNAs work out at Rocky Knoll Couldn't morally do that. They have to take care of the residents So it's a it's a challenging situation that I'm sure Alderman Sirk is well aware of based on his previous experience here If I could follow up madam chair There was a I thought a thoughtful editorial in the should what guest editorial of the shabuagan press yesterday Having to do with the staffing levels of your highway department compared to some of the other highway departments in the surrounding counties and The gentleman made the point that the surrounding counties are doing maintenance only rather than construction has Has the county board taken a look at that of possibly shabuagan County only doing the maintenance and farming out the construction and would it be cost-effective and Again Manitowoc counties and the other counties have about half of the employees in their highway department compared to ours over a hundred Yeah, and and I certainly welcome when we see letters or suggestions like that although sometimes I think they they Draw people to conclude that well if Manitowoc can do it. Why can't we? There's a lot of differences between Manitowoc and shabuagan one is just the number of roads We have to care for a lot of variables, but your point is excellent In the fact that shabuagan County's highway department does do more than most County highway departments We're in the construction and I've since I started here I thought well, that's unusual if most counties are doing predominantly maintenance Why are we also in the construction and I quickly learned from the county board supervisors who were very involved with the transportation committee and And on town boards, there's a real strong relationship here between the county and the towns municipal work Working hand-in-hand and that can all benefit the taxpayer But the key thing for me that drilled down into it was we had an operational analysis done We had virtual crows come in and we didn't Point the consultant in any one way or the other we said take a look at this and let us know what you think and what that Consultant concluded was right now based on the infrastructure that the county board has invested in We're geared up and we can provide a cost-effective service however, the Consultant recommended that in the next three to five years when that Infrastructure begins to deteriorate or needs to be replaced. That's really the time the county board needs to seriously Consider whether or not it wants to be providing this level of service What our highway commissioner would probably tell you if he was standing here Greg Schnell and he's excellent. He would say, you know, I Envision were probably going to be reducing over time. I just think that's the nature of government at all levels but his concern is if you only have one private Person in the area bidding and the county is no longer in the game That could really Raise prices for the towns and all the municipalities in the city and everyone else who needs that gravel or needs that work And then our folks could be paying more in that Area so time will tell but yes, we've looked at it Yes, we've studied it and yes, I think that over time changes are going to be made I could have just one more madam chair and that is the the items that you're Intending the sales tax to be used on Adam. Is that going to be in a formal document that? That you know the ones that you pointed out where you're going to use it Is that going to be in a formal document and then what will be the mechanism from the county board? Not coming up in another year with wanting to pigeonhole something else I mean is there going to have to be a Two-thirds vote to change the prioritization of those funds or how is that going to work as time goes along again? Excellent questions the county board has to pass an ordinance and that ordinance has been drafted that that went to the finance committee That went to the executive committee. Is that online K on our website? So if you go to the county website These these are here. I mentioned the the ordinance is there the sales tax presentation and background information is there And that's what they'll be specifically acting on we've done our best to try to earmark the use of those funds And we also built in language that it could only be used for Existing programs and services because some people have suggested well you're going to create all this all these new programs and and I just I certainly don't see that happening But we built that in has to be for existing programs and services for these particular areas Could the county board come back in a year or two and change it? Yes Does it require a two-thirds majority vote? No simple majority and there have been some board members who have suggested well There's no way I'm going to support this because you know We'll probably turn around in a year or two and start doing frivolous things with it And when I hear that again, it makes me grin because it is the county board That is the governing body that will make the decision on whether or not to implement a sales tax It's their decision and if they agree to do so on These guidelines I would hope they would see it through that they could look in the mirror and say we're going to see This through and use it responsibly the other thing in our favor is well in our favor from a standpoint of that argument Is the county board doesn't see much turnover? There's very little turnover sadly very little competition for board member seats So if you have a new port person or two each every two years How much is that going to start swinging things and then finally I look at the track record? I'll always come back to the track record the county board in 2003 put a self-imposed bonding limitation of four million a year Eight million over two years. They've followed it to the tee since 2003 They've saved taxpayers over five hundred million dollars in interest. Can they see it through? I absolutely think they can see it through Thank you Thank you, man Jim Mr. Payne of the 63 counties that have adapted this half percent sales tax How many of them have followed the protocol that you have set forth here or Maybe their own protocol and have seen an increase in their savings In other words hasn't worked out for most of these counties when they implemented the sales tax Or did they go out of spending spree it? It depends I Don't know for certain. I think county boards Generally are a conservative animal, you know I think they're predominantly conservative minded folks, so I don't think there's been a wild spending sprees I think it's the very opposite. I think county boards across the state just like city councils across the state are trying to stay fiscally Responsible with the kind of demands that are getting placed on us by the state I don't I don't think they're spending sprees out there How the dollars have been used goes back to Alderman Hannah's questioning about the one-for-one or Providing relief taking pressure off and that depending on the county can be more or less But I'm not aware of any counties out there that are on spending sprees on in fact At this time in government if you look at the projections I think for the next two three four decades We're going to be in a transition period with government where we're just going to continue to be Slimming down and getting as efficient and as lean as we can. I think we're going to have to Alderman Gisha Thank You madam chairman Adam, you know, I know this is a countywide plan and your numbers are all countywide our concern in this room of course of the people living in the borders around the inside the borders of the city of Sheboygan and because we are a major Center for retail and for Population I'm curious as to how many dollars this extracts from the gross consumer spendable income of our citizens Here I understand the countywide problem, but it's the pocketbooks of the citizens. I think is our concern and So what is Sheboygan's? What are you taking out of the citizens of Sheboygan as part of this eight million dollar plus That would good question that goes back to that slide of and again simple math But if we take the total population Averages about sixty two dollars per person so you could say sixty two dollars per capita per person in the city Sheboygan would be would each person would be contributing on average sixty two dollars in sales tax revenue annually But that again Really depends on how much income is coming into that household So I've had some people say to me well if you have five people in your family, then you're you're spending sixty two times five No, you're not not if that family is bringing in forty thousand dollars of income right here the I do agree with with Alderman born on on the point of Your payroll is raised over the last ten years about five or six million bucks Yet your head counts down You're paying less people more money And that's not just you're not immune to that is that the projected version or the the current budgeted Property tax levy comparison year over year Okay, that would be 98 through 2010 actually right now our payroll is less today than it was in 2002 Yeah, but then a nice little bump up there and then a drop down all with the sunny ridge so on average right Which is fine. I mean I'm not saying you're not doing having the same problems everybody else is having But it does illustrate the point that you're not hearing. I don't assume bargaining units clamoring for you not to raise this tax I don't see AFSCME standing on the corner Taking out billboards saying don't raise this tax I think that the point from Alderman born is well taken since the state budget changed the mediation arbitration rules last year This actually is like a hand in glove They now can look at these revenue streams and just as you say saying Now you don't have any problems because look at the cash. I don't care what you designated it Basically under mediation arbitration. They can say you're well thought out and I think incredibly sincere plan Can go away and you have to move it into that area So I don't imagine first of all I guess where's the question in there? Are you what is the input you're getting from bargaining units? Very little yeah, but from Barney. We've done what nine? For him so far I was in the town of Sherman last week in the village of Woosburg and been to noon rotary and rotary West and Number of public forms taxpayers alliance is next week This Friday, it'll be the Friday form and generally it's been audiences like this I mean we've usually averaged 40 to 50 people so the turnouts were not what I thought they would be you know tonight I thought we'd see a lot more people Sitting in wanting to learn more about this Well when we decided we were going to the discussion was around a garbage fee You had 60 people here say it's not deductible, so I don't want to do it here. You have a 62 dollar fee and It just it's just perception and that the timing and and what's a hot button, but You understand we've talked about this timing on this is kind of stinks The timing stinks the timing timing stinks But tell me when it's ever a good time to raise taxes One of the things that I'd like to share is that there's some discussion right now So I can answer that question by the way why I'm not asking you all If I worked here, of course, I'd never respond Would you like to respond well I and I kind of goes back to some of your comments I thought I think the answer is I Believe and I consider you a friend first of all and and and I have a lot of respect for what you've done at the county And I think you're outrageously sincere on your scenarios of where those monies are going to go I don't believe for a minute. It'll play out It's just the reality of the exact comments you're saying Here's our sketch and here's our budget plan But gee the sheriff's department needs five more people or whatever they the political realities enter into this and enter into your job And and you have to sort through those things There is no lockbox. There is no guarantee of your plan being followed by crazy politicians like us it is the whim of the times and and I don't I'm not specifically commenting on the county but you have very long-term supervisors who Have very strong ties to the areas and committees they're on And I would imagine you have some pretty strong fights over turf and every one of them will want something That's just human nature and based on the plan. I see every one of them will have a pot to get it and That'll delay. I love your plans. I've read all your things online. I don't have a life so I read those things and And and it's phenomenal. I think it's excellent work and I've stolen many of things from it So and I've taken good ideas from you and your your counsel as well but But as you say, they won't even follow the lead of what is excellent data now I don't imagine they'll do it. I don't think the county board as I mentioned earlier, you know Not to make predictions, but I don't think it's gonna Be supported March 16th. That's that won't surprise me and if that doesn't happen the sky will not fall We will be okay, but as you can see the numbers aren't I Mean they're not just pulled pulled out of a hat. It's real will be okay for a while and In my opinion, it's not a matter of if but when and if they choose not to do it now Then what I'll be striving for is then all right. Tell me what you significantly want to reduce cut Eliminate and in my opinion, I don't think the county board is going to significantly reduce programs and services I think we will continue incrementally to make Reductions to streamline to gain efficiencies everything government should be doing but I think in Sheboygan County We've got a lot of good things in place And I just don't envision this county board significantly reducing the Sheriff's Department health and human services Rocky know maybe that'll come up and folks will suggest to be privatized But we went from three facilities to one and I think we'd have these rooms packed if they were talking about Privatizing our last county owned and operated nursing home We've also dropped our tax levy from 6.2 million to 1.9. We've made progress, but I'll tell you what Either we we need to get serious in this county and in this state and this nation about being fiscally responsible Or not and again, it's it's not politically popular to do either of these things But if we're not going to just pass the buck to our kids and grandkids We got to take some action and so you're probably right not everything up here I'll necessarily go to plan as plan a few things do but well I would relish the opportunity For Sheboygan County to lead by example To try to be debt free by 2020 And not pass on as much debt to our children and grandchildren I would relish that opportunity and and I hope the board if it isn't march 16th sometime in the future grabs hold of this and Proclaims if we're going to be fiscally responsible. We're going to have to address both sides of the equation Final comment, madam chair if that's okay question to some of those ones. Okay. I'll be real brief I I loved your last statement And however, I think the county has been leading by example Would like to continue. Well, I but but but turning to a half a percent sales tax is not leading by example It's becoming like the rest of the state and And I know that's the balance and I believe people would be more interested in this if in fact it was and I know It's hard to do with government 100 dedicated for the first five years for debt reduction or something to that effect But I think it's just too too much money in the bucket And a lot of hands wanting to get in there and get it And I so I said before I think you know a lot of people who are licking their chops Hoping this passes for you and and on that note and I was going to comment on that earlier And I forgot because jim raised it and you raised it alderman borne. I'm sorry We're listening to people county board supervisors are certainly listening and on the wage and benefits, you know the golden pottier Very recently within the last week one of our board members who has the ability to bring people together and hopefully forge a compromise Suggested that we push the date back Further because you know I said earlier no time's a good time Well, I think it would have been worse a year or two ago when the economy was really going down now Hopefully we've hit bottom when we're coming up But one board member has suggested perhaps we delay the implementation date to january 2012 And we also require that none of the sales tax revenue can be used for wage or benefits For county employee wage and benefits if you can do that legally You bet we can just like we can ear market for debt service or infrastructure or what have you So that may be something that the community and the county board can rally behind because it addresses some of the concerns that Oh, this is going to be a pot of gold for folks. We'll see Cool I would just like to say um, we're coming. Uh, we are past our limit. I have two people's lights on and I think that'll be it Okay, for everyone else. Okay, so alderman rindflash I'm chairman. Um, a couple of points Um, that I've had conversations with people talking about this and I'm sure you for the same thing Certainly it's the perception is as a new tax. It's an increase in taxes the net taxes and again if it's dollar for dollar You know decrease in property versus increase in property. I think actually misses the bigger point here. The bigger point is the government needs revenue to stop right and and The the amounts of revenue is operated. That's up for debate And we're trying to streamline our own cells here and operate unless And provide quality level services as the county governs as well, too But as that that number decreases Um, it's more most important for government to look at all revenue streams and bounce revenue streams And adam did hit on this a little bit too is that right now part of tax is the revenue stream period And that anything comes up any rainy day issues come up any disasters hit There is one stream only and that is property taxes Um, oh and that flip side of that is decreased in services as well Whereas a blended revenue stream allows for flexibility It's not necessarily an increase in tax. You can you know, we're paying it one way or the other but even if The the the blended stream allows for at least 20 percent or whatever number that is of people that are paying those taxes that aren't from here And um property tax can't do that It doesn't have the same thing even if they own property here, you know, they're they're paying their portion of that one in terms of regressive tax on sales tax The textbooks do say that as long as the necessities are counted and that's because Someone who earns 400,000 doesn't buy unless you work at cost of four times the amount of clothing or buy four times the number of shoes Or four times enough food to survive And when you eliminate that now you're looking at The the expenditures that are optional and then it's not a regressive tax It's actually a progressive tax We look at those that are buying boats and yachts and cars and and things like that aren't the poorest members of our society So again, I'm not arguing for it. I'm just throwing something out there that that kind of consider Other ways that that government needs to look at that You know, we're doing the same thing with The garbage fee that we looked at that that gas shot down Stormwater fees that we've had in the past wheel tax in the past looking at ways of Bring additional revenues in unfortunately. I think in the past it was simply a way to plug the budget hole it wasn't used as just a You know a full pot of money that we have and now we can you know And just keep it at that pot of money regardless of how that money comes in just make it a fair share And but keep the total expenditures down I think that's the key is what the government's looking at expenditures not to go up as you pointed out but as for the The negotiations I'm going to have to agree with adam on this one In the sense that as long as there's a possibility of bringing revenue in the unions have the county over the barrel I'd say that there is more revenue We don't have to go hold the line out of zero percent tax Whereas the city right now we've had something similar in terms of do we bring in three additional firefighters if we do Which jobs where is that coming from who are we not hiring? What other programs would be short money that we are capped off if we endless Property tax whereas that this will allow them to say we're capped off You know if you want us to raise Salary benefits then you need to tell us where it comes from which other department comes from Versus there's this mystical amount of money that they're not collecting they could collect so again It's all perception. It's all ways of going. I'm not necessarily supporting of it I'm just saying that there are other ways of looking at it Not just as a new tax but as a total pot of revenue generated to fill the bills to pay the bills And it's not as as regressive as textbooks would generally like to say it and that I think right now is what the sheriff's department shows that that they're they're saying you can raise the taxes right now You know go ahead raise them to the limit. There's no pain involved. You raise it. Whereas. I think if this went through Now they would they would be on half the same side of the table saying where's it going to come from Some points I want to bring up no question Yeah, thank you You're good for you, Adam The last person I think we'll have speak is Alderperson Okay, thank you madam chair and mr. Payne In the event that this passes And you've got this big pot of gold And you've got money in the reserve At what point Will you take over the library our parks To give basically the city. I mean our city taxpayers some relief At what point will we take over the library? That was the question I I don't envision that happening anytime soon. So that's not your mark. That's not no no I occasionally that you know constituents are raised that or we've had some general discussion about that but The county is really in no position to be Adding on additional responsibilities or additional programs and services. We We're just in no position to do it We're trying to we're trying to maintain what we have I think we'll uh Thank you very much. I haven't seen thank you. Appreciate it. Howdy administer the paint And k is a king to the rents for coming into a system And um, is there anything else to bring up? We have a There's a motion to adjourn. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much everybody. Good night