 Welcome to another edition of into the issues. I'm your host Steve Pappas Today we're honored to have our governor Phil Scott with us governor. Thank you for being here. Well, thanks for having me on Steve Yeah It's called into the issues because there's always a lot of issues to talk about there are a number of issues Yeah, and with you in particular We never know where it's gonna go but I'm gonna start because we are only weeks away from the legislative session starting and I know that lawmakers are kind of Getting ready and and trying to figure out what their agenda is going to be. Do you do you have an idea? I mean, I'm sure you do what what are you looking for from the upcoming? I'm not sure that a lot has changed since a year ago and What we're focused on what I've been focused on actually hasn't changed a lot in the last three or four years And it's for me It's it's about those three Strategic goals and it's to grow the economy make Vermont more affordable protect the most vulnerable and High on that list is our demographics our workforce challenges We have fewer people working today than in 2009 about 15,000 fewer And we're an aging population. We need more youth. We need more people here in the state To take the jobs that we have that are available today. We know they are I mean you probably talked to some of your customers who are looking for for people and What we're finding is that We just don't have enough people to fill the jobs 2.2 percent unemployment Lowest in the country and and when you look at that when you break that down This that's like 3,000 people on unemployment right now And when you go to the job links page on and our Department of Labor And these aren't all the jobs available. There's 8,500 jobs listed right that tells you the whole story Yeah, it's a double-edged sword to have a low unemployment Absolutely, a lot of governors across the country are You know pounding the table and saying look what I've done and and I said I keep saying, you know, this is a double-edged sword It's a good news in some respects, but from our standpoint It's just that we don't have the supply and that's why we're focused so much on trying to to bring more people into the state to be to be welcoming to Anyone who wants to work here because we do have jobs available VT diggers just had a story that came out in the last day or two that Talk is talking about that we're seeing the number of people fleeing leaving the state and that that's that's having an effect Why do you think that Vermont is in the challenge that it is in right now? What got us to this point? Well, I don't think it's it's all about fleeing. Although there is enough of that And we have to be cognizant of that But when you really look at the numbers and where we are you think about our K through 12 education system And we have 30,000 fewer students than 20 years ago and that continues to drop every single day We lose more students because we've lost the crop so to speak so when you think about 30,000 fewer kids from going from a high of At one time almost 110,000 now we're in the in the low 70s That is our workforce Those are the folks that that have families by homes, you know by products Part of our workforce as well as part of our economy. So if we don't have that within the state We have to rely on more immigration from outside the state So we do have people leaving. I know myself I have and I'm sure you know of people who have left. I had a cousin who left the state To pursue a career in Tennessee Well pretty soon she left and then her sister decided to go And then her mom and dad decided to go and pretty soon you have a dozen people Move to Tennessee We need to turn that around We need to attract as many as we can Into the state and have them bring their families with them eventually And that's why we've been focused on things like The state of state weekends, where we we know people might be interested They've come here to as tourists to our state, but we want to show them a little bit more So we have these state-of-state programs throughout the state geographically located whether it's Bennington or Rotland or Newport or and other other places that are contemplating this and To show them the area to show them the community to bring them The jobs and the real estate and so forth and just show them see what whether that community is the right fit for them And we've been successful in that bringing people in because of that But as well the remote worker program, which received a lot of attention both positive and negative But but the remote worker program was something where we were going to Give give people Up to ten thousand dollars to help with their moving expenses and so forth And we received criticism and this was a legislative initiative. I want to give credit where credits do I wasn't sure if it's going to work But but it has worked When we brought in hundreds of people into the state The average average age has been 39 The average wage has been about 36 000 they've been bringing in family members. So it's actually About 400 people who have moved to the state as a result And and the average payout isn't ten thousand dollars. It's it's more like the average is about 34 35 hundred dollars And and again, we receive criticism from people Every day Vermonters who have been been here for for quite some time saying, you know, what about me, you know How about sending me a check for ten thousand dollars after suffering through all this burden some regulation and taxation and so forth I could use a break too well You have to somehow explain and rationalize that By bringing more people in filling those jobs and and paying those taxes They actually spreading the burden out amongst many so it is helping people who are here But we need more of it That remote remote worker program the state of stay has received a lot of attention on social media And and it's been positive. I can't I travel Throughout the country to to national governance association meetings and and i'm always People are asking me about the program and and I think I have my checkbook with them, but with me, but But they're interested in it. So we've received millions of dollars worth of free advertising Just because of those programs, but we need more of that more outside the box thinking more creative thoughts about How do the common goal of how do we bring more people into the state? the Roland herald and the times argus have been running a series for the last year of commentaries solicited by We solicited higher education institutions to offer commentary about the challenges that they're facing and UVM's president just published one this past weekend We talked a lot about investing in vermont and investing in the vermonters in vermont as well as the folks coming in from out of state and Higher ed is definitely one of the areas where We seem to be attracting a fair number of of people and hopefully, you know fingers crossed Keeping those young people here probably not to the levels that we want to but they're they are coming to vermont and kind of falling in love with it right Which is great, but there are other pockets of vermont that I know that you are interested in in having workforce development and Big proponent of of expanding trades, for example And and things going on like that at vtc. What you know, I know that you've been In Quebec and in other places trying to draw businesses manufacturing other things down here You know, what are the jobs that are going to Help vermont kind of turn the corner. Yeah, well again It's a balance as well because we we have jobs available right now here in the state Manufacturing health care. We have Healthcare yeah, and and throughout the trades as well when you think about The average age of a construction worker Person in the trades it's it's getting up there. Yeah, and and you think about the impact That's going to have on all of us in years to come when we need a carpenter a plumber electrician Automotive technician These are you know, this is what? Rebuilds and keeps keeps our economy going So we need to continue to focus on on different areas all different types of approaches That's why I talk a lot about my cradle to career vision. I believe that we should be putting more resources into early care and learning because Having a construction background Giving our our kids the best possible the the firmest foundation possible Is is key for their success And for for the future of society in general Because it just gives them all the right tools they need to be successful in life But as well on the other end in higher education That we focus a lot on four-year programs for your college degrees And you know, that's not for everyone One year two year degrees are as important and certificate programs. Yeah, exactly. So I think again trying to Trying to to bring about Different approaches and and and let Our kids Experiment a bit while in school about what they're interested in Because there's there's viable careers in in every sector and we just mean to To pay attention and give them the best possible education possible with the money that we're spending today I'm not talking about spending more money because we we already spend, you know, right now It's gone up another hundred million dollars since last year. It's going to be a hundred million dollars more this year and in Education spending so we're up to about a billion eight Which is significant when you think about our entire budget All in with federal funding and everything we spend about six billion dollars And about half of that basically about half of that is state dollars We spend a billion eight For education by far the largest Expenditure state of state dollars that we have so I believe and we have a shrinking student population at the same time I believe we just have to have the courage to think outside the box and Approach this all differently And I've made this comment before but if if we were to wipe the slate clean Start over and I was who came to to steve And and I told ask you to develop an education system That that would educate our 73,000 kids and here's a here's a check for a billion eight I'd say you do it. You design it all differently than it is today And and I think that we just have that the courage to think again outside the box greet the best education system possible the best in the country and When we're small enough and nimble enough to do this If we could do that that would be the one of the best economic tools that we could possibly ask for That would draw families to our state A lot of those are mandates that are that tie up that money So the obvious question is why hasn't it happened? Why can't we hit that reset button? I think there's just so many different opinions on on Education and there are some who say there's nothing we can do about it. It's local control And and it is in some respects. I mean it is about local control But I think acts 60 took care of a good share of local control So again, I think we just have to to create as much flexibility as possible and provide Some of the mandates have restricted some of that creative thinking as well and I think we just have to move beyond that and Again have some courage And and do this differently because because the goal should be what's best for the kids What do they need? And instead of being nostalgic about some of what we've had in the past What do they need to be successful in life because it's different today than it was then Is it concern you overall that the the population of vermont really hasn't grown in 15 years? Yeah stagnant. Um, and uh, it's very concerning to me because that's That is the root of all of our issues right now. Uh, that we We have a population that hasn't changed as you said for you know, 10 to 20 years Getting older health care usage increases as we age And uh, and we don't have the youth here To to broaden that pool of the younger healthier population that pays into the system That doesn't utilize it. That's what we're missing. So obviously some of our health care costs continue to rise Our prescription drugs prices continue to rise. I mean, that's why we we took the step of of trying to Find a way to purchase from canada. Uh, and I you know, I still think that we're moving forward on that. There's some uh, there's there's some, uh Promise there, uh, but uh, but that's not the total answer either. What we need is more people here um, the democrats are Certainly teeing up minimum wage and paid family leave are are those the kinds of things that you feel are Ideas that will attract vermonters or attract people to vermont. Well again, I look for common goals and every everything that we uh, that we contemplate and uh In the common goal, I see with the minimum wage increase the minimum wage to $15 is what they're Anticipating and promoting And I've said that I believe are the the common goal is we want more money in the pockets of vermoners, right? So there's a couple different approaches. One is uh, is the artificially raised your wages The other is to make sure that you're not putting any undue costs on vermoners and pay attention to that as well Uh and Market the market has a has an effect as well supply and demand. We're seeing it right now in real time that uh, that that uh That the wages are increasing and you know if if If a higher minimum wage Was a tool that attracted more people to a state we have one of the highest now And it's it obviously isn't working We have New Hampshire right across the river They're at 725 And their economy's doing quite well so It would lead me to believe that that isn't the answer that that 15 come to vermont and and get $15 uh, $15 minimum wage. I'm not sure resonates I've just I don't think it works But again, uh, we've uh, we've taken steps over the years Increased the minimum wage and tying it to the rate of inflation It's up over it's up around $11 now And and I believe that that's uh, that that we need to to pay attention because we don't want to lose Some of the businesses main street businesses and some of the rural areas that are struggling to get by We don't want to penalize them either And they're mad. Yeah I mean, I'm sure you hear of I hear it loud and clear as a republican governor and in a pretty Pretty republican state or at least used to be used to be. Yeah As well the on paid family leave I Agree. I think it's uh, it's time. We we move full with some sort of a family leave program I believe that we should do a voluntary family leave program first And build the structure necessary to move forward and if in a few years The voluntary Family leave doesn't work. You'll have the structure in place to do what you want but right now to to Have a payroll tax that's going to raise 25 to 80 million dollars to me just doesn't make sense Right now. Let's build the structure. Let's have a voluntary plan And and then let's see where that brings us and I and I believe that has promise and again Then you build the structure first Walk before you run and then see where we go from there Governor Snelling rather famously came up with a A budget that cut expenses and raise taxes and fees to a certain degree Um and you you up to this point have pretty much held the line that you don't want to put any undue burden on From honors and they have said pretty loud and clear. They don't want you to Um, is that tie your hands though? Well, I don't know if it ties my hands Because what we did in the first two years put a line in the sand and and I was rigid about that I went through a few vetoes As a result But I didn't believe I thought we we were spending more than we're taking in We would been doing that for quite a number of years and we had to keep raising taxes in order to satisfy our spending Habits So I uh, I said we need to stop and I made that promise during the campaign and I adhered to it So for two years we didn't raise taxes or fees After I was elected the the second time Last year I said we can take a look, you know If there's if there's fees that makes sense as long as we we control our spending as long as we Are under the constraints of a growth rate calculation that doesn't grow any spending doesn't grow any faster than our economy We've taken that correction in the in those two years. We can move a little bit which we did we And we adhered to that and kept within those constraints And that's what I'd like to do this year as well Stay within the growth rate calculation make sure that We're not spending any any faster than someone's pocket book And and I think that's important for monitors if we're going to attract more people here It's got to be affordable for them So, uh, it's uh, it's all about uh, all about balance, but we have some other Pressures as well. I mean for three years now. Well, I think we'll see Um some More of a surplus this year like we have the last two years even while we've reduced spending or Stop spending to grow the growth of spending As much as we had in previous years And uh, and uh, same with the fees and so forth We've seen more revenue coming in The economy is a little bit healthier seen more revenue coming in And but the the frustrating part is even though we have more money on the bottom line We didn't keep up over the last Couple of decades two or three decades didn't keep up with our our promises made with pensions so Back in 2009, I believe Governor Douglas put us on a path To repaying and catching up. Well, that's now ramped up to where it's almost Like this year, it'll be 125 million dollar payment We have to make on this and it's going to go until 2038 It'll go up as high as 200 million a year just to catch up So when we have a surplus of 50 million dollars or 100 million dollars It all goes towards that And all the while, um, we we we still have our ongoing obligations with pensions, you know, the other was just to catch up Pensions salary increases and cost pressures like health care and so forth so We have to find money within the system and more be more efficient In order to stay within the growth rate calculation So the pensions are tying your hands the pensions are are something that but but it's a promise made And that's something i've i've been consistent with if uh, if some and i'm not going to to do this But if they want to do something with with pensions in the future, that's fine But we have to fulfill the promises we made to those who Were engaged in the process before so those who are receiving pensions now Uh, we can't do anything with those. I would not would not promote that and I don't think it's fair Because we made an agreement Going into the session. Do you feel like there are certain challenges kind of right out of the gate? Or do you feel like it as you say it kind of is going to be a Very well could be Just a continuation of what it already occurred. I think a lot of it will be the continuation I mean, we'll see the pay pay family leave. I think we'll move forward it past one I think the senate not the house or vice versa Same with minimum wage past one body and not the other So they'll they'll be in play And you know the the legalization are not legalization. We've already legalized marijuana But the industrialization commercialization of marijuana will be an issue And I've said From from my standpoint I'm okay with moving forward, but I have three conditions that are important to me And I will not I won't sign it unless we have that one is Roadside testing a saliva test. It's the only one that we have at this point in time And that isn't just to detect marijuana. It's just to detect impaired driving whether there's Alcohol involved or prescription drugs or illicit drugs or or marijuana or a combination of the three or four That we should know that and then determine impairment from there The other is communities if that they should be they should have to opt in to a retail market So it's not the Some have said they'd have to opt out. I'm saying it should be the other way around Let the communities who want to have a retail market opt into this and take a vote of their select board or Or their town town whatever it is whatever structure government structure they have Before they move forward the other third condition is just more money up front for education And make sure that we don't repeat mistakes made by other states and and learn from them So you endeared yourself to the the marijuana community Last year You have irritated your base On your position on drugs and being pro-choice Looking to a third term Do you see those challenges being a hold back in polling numbers Getting reelected Well, again, I haven't I haven't committed to running again So I don't know if there'll be a third term or not. I'm I'm going to focus on the legislative session And do my job. I think that's important and From my standpoint again, I I've never been one to Adhere to one straight party line. I'm I'm fairly independent. I want to do what I think is right. I think that's why I was elected and I do there are times when I irritate both the base and my adversaries with positions I take But but I do them for the right reasons from again from my standpoint And but that gives you the freedom as well because it's this isn't I didn't take this position. I didn't get involved in politics to satisfy my ego or to attain power It was to try and move Vermont in a different direction and to pay attention to things like demographics and workforce and the economy and so forth so I If I continue to do what I think is right and best and for the right reasons I'll live with the consequences and I was quite willing to do that. I took some Just took some action on on different issues in my first two years and I was I owned up to it and and I Said that that wasn't what the voters wanted that they would They would they would let me know And I was willing to accept that and if I decide to run again I I'd be in the same position. I'm it's okay these shouldn't be lifetime positions and and this isn't this isn't something that You you shouldn't you shouldn't do everything And and to to get it reelected, right? Yeah, you should you should govern According to what's right for your state and for the general population well on that note the The national political scene at this very moment as we're talking is probably as shrill as it's ever been And that has to be taking a toll on The politics of the state you have to be seeing it at just about every corner In the couple minutes that we have left what you know, how is That discourse and that lack of Listening to one another and talking over one another and mean spirited mean spiritedness. How is that affecting Vermont? Yeah Well the lack of respect and decency that in civility that I've seen Across the country is is concerning We become so tribalized and we receive our information so differently than we did 20 or 30 years ago, and I think that's part of the problem as well Bring back newspapers. Well, it's true though. I mean you don't you don't get Independent news you you turn on something and and and it reinforces what you're thinking If you don't like what you're hearing find another station And you'll get exactly what you want and reinforce all those thoughts that you've been having And you don't listen to the other side, and I've throughout my political life I've I've tried to listen And I've tried to do things again for the right reasons and sometimes I'm not always right And and I have to learn from that and accept that And I'm really concerned with the polarization we're seeing throughout our country. This is tearing us apart It's it's either you're on one side or the other and for those of us who are more moderate in the center It's very uncomfortable for us because the others have made their mind up We're in the middle and and so so the focus is on us and and if we're not in one camp or another We're being we're being eaten up by both sides and that's that's concerning because I I believe that The vast majority of people are More independent and more moderate and more in the middle than Good news is there's more of them. Yeah. Yeah, but We'll I'll continue to try and promote stability and and I've never I've never adhered to some of the the discourse that they were seeing throughout our country And I think we'd be any better role models in this country. I was talking with you before about Travis Roy I mean, there's a role model for you and if you haven't seen this story or heard his story Check it out reflect and you in your your problems will probably pale in comparison So, uh, so I just think we need to be better people and and strive to be that be the person you perceive yourself to be every single day Yeah, governor. Thank you for this conversation. Yeah, it was really good to see you. Nice to see you as well And thank you for watching. We really appreciate your support and until next time this has been into the issues