 All right, good afternoon and evening to everyone in Asia Pacific and good morning to all in Europe and very, very early morning to some of those from the US. I'm Julian Gordon, I'm the VP Asia Pacific for Hyperledger, and I'm delighted to be here today introducing this special in depth Hyperledger member webinar with Bondi value on their bond blocks bond exchange. The flow for today is we will start with introductions, then a special presentation on bond blocks by Raj Kannon, who is the co founder and CTO of Bondi value, followed by a distinguished panel with Q&A. And what an amazing panel we have with us today, a truly expert lineup of leaders in blockchain and capital markets. And they're all part of the team that made the world's first blockchain based bond exchange possible, bond blocks bond exchange, which allows investors to trade $1,000 fractions of traditional wholesale bonds. So please sit back and get ready to listen to this discussion of how Bondi value democratize corporate bond trading using enterprise blockchain. And how the team solve the tech regulatory and accessibility challenges to open up this international trillion dollar market to individual investors and how you can get involved. If you have any questions during the webinar, please use the Q&A function in the root zoom chat just at the bottom down here, and submit them there. We're going to gather questions and some we will answer during the during the discussion. And then we'll also have a Q&A at the end. I'd like to ask each panelist to briefly introduce yourselves and your role in this area in this area will go alphabetically. So starting with Arjit. So Arjit, could you please introduce yourself please Arjit. Sure. Thank you, Julian. My name is Arjit Das and I'm head of digital asset innovation technology at the Northern Trust based out of Chicago. And my background is I've been in the industry with technology finance and banking for about 30 years across different different banks have had different roles. But what I currently do is I lead a team of developers and technologists who focus on emerging technologies and how it's relevant to our business. And in that context, we had the pleasure to work with Raj and Rahul and the others in the team to come up with what you were describing Julian on speed and exciting journey and looking forward to talk more about it. Thank you. I'd like to know Arjit is up at four o'clock in the morning. One way from Chicago, I believe. So thank you. And I think next I'll go to Raj alphabetically. Thank you. All right. I was just wondering if you're going to get the alphabetics right. Hi everyone. Thanks so much. It's great to see such a big participation and thanks Julian for bringing this panel together. So I'm the co founder and CTO at Bondi value. I have worked over the last, maybe 25 years across various technology roles in finance across both technology companies and financial services companies. And it includes from hardcore development architecting solutioning all the way through to more business focused roles like product management, pre sales, marketing, and ultimately my last role is to head treasury markets technology at DBS Bank's Hyderabad Center. So at Bondi value, of course, I manage all of the technology but also occasionally where the business act as needed. Okay. Thank you Roger and you're based in India right. I'm based in India. And then, Ryan, could you give it. Hi everyone. Great to be here. Good morning. Good afternoon. So I'm based in London. And I'm the global head of DLT and digital innovation at Citibank security services division. I'm responsible for internal and external initiatives covering a broad range of digital technologies, including things like tokenization and digital assets. So it's really good to be here today I think I'm in the minority I'm not the technologist. My background is is operations and products. My role currently sits within the front office products organization at Citibank, but obviously we reach out across our organization across our own two partners. Okay. Thank you, Ryan. So what I was asked to do now is to start the event is kind of set the scene by giving a very brief explanation of blockchain technology and why it's so key to making all what we're going to talk about today possible and how the hyperledger fits in and how that supports the amazing work by Bondi value and I'm going to do that by just quickly sharing a slide or two. Yeah, they're there. Share that with everyone. Can you all see that. Can you see my slide. Yes. Yeah. So, so on this slide. And as I said, I'm going to give a quick brief explanation of blockchain technology, and where hyperledger fits in, and how that supports the work that we're doing today. So on this slide you can read a very simple description, but I think covers block chance blockchain technologies allow multiple different parties to securely interact with the same universal source of truth that they can all trust. So the key here is trust. Once you have trust between multiple parties, you can create many exciting new business opportunities, and you can vastly improve many existing operations. In very brief, blockchain is a decentralized ledger that allows all users to see one universal source of truth. Once something is written on to a blockchain, it cannot be tampered with. It is immutable, the ability to protect against fraud and accuracies and to streamline operations cut costs and approve efficiencies is revolutionary. And that's what we're seeing today in enterprise blockchain. And in the bond blocks case, you'll hear from Raj, who's going out going to present after me on the on bond blocks. The many benefits of using blockchain, including the battle ability to settle at t plus zero so that's instant settlement of bond transactions. There is no read for reconciliation as on a blockchain. Everyone is working with one immutable universal source of truth. And then he will show how blockchain gives the ability to create new products such as fractionalized bonds. So that's that's blockchain. Also, we want to be clear what type of blockchain we are discussing today, which is enterprise blockchain is what we're using today. I've kind of, and I think one of the best ways to do that is to look at the, at the history of blockchain. So I kind of put it into three phases. 2008 was Bitcoin. And that was the amazing Satoshi whoever she they were, we don't know, right. And they pulled together that white paper and created Bitcoin, which is a cryptocurrency. And then after five years, we had the third, the second kind of phase I look at was a theorem that was the genius of italic and the vision of a one well computer. And that's also another key thing was the invention of the smart contract, putting logic on top of our blockchain. So, but those both are permissionless. And that was a challenge for for businesses and for for enterprises, one in terms of regulatory concerns one in terms of performance at that time. Businesses and I was around that time 2002 1516 said that we'd like to create enterprise blockchain, which has a kind of KYC we know who's involved in it. There's no mining. And it's fit for purpose for businesses at that time. At that time, there were a number of efforts going on being developed around the world and high pleasure became a place along within the next foundation where people came together and started developing DLTs, or enterprise at DLTs, what we call in permission. So it has the KYC, all parties are known. It's in a controlled environment improves performance and is better from a regulatory perspective. So make sure we understand we're not looking at cryptocurrency here we're looking at enterprise blockchain. And I'm just going to show you very quickly this is all the technologies within hyper ledger ultimately an open source software initiative from the next foundation. And we have a number of different platforms and today we're going to be looking at sawtooth which can see up on the top right hand there. Raj, that was a quick covering of blockchain and our technologies and what enterprise blockchain is I'm now going to pass you over to show how you are using this technology today. All right. Thank you so much, Julian for that introduction and really setting this up in terms of what's a blockchain and the benefits of a blockchain and the evolution itself. So what I would like to do today is to talk a little bit about the bond block solution. I hope you can see my screen. So, and then talk, spend a little bit of time explaining what is bond blocks, but I would like to dive in a little more into how bond blocks itself is implemented and how the underlying ledger works. So with that, I'll just get into who we are at bondy value and we are a team of technologies and we are best defined by our vision, which is a world where more investors can trade bonds on the go, without restrictive minimum investments and we'll just talk a little bit about that in a moment. And we have implemented this via a fully regulated bond exchange that's based on blockchain and of course we'll talk a lot more about this as we go forward. So some of the key pain points in the existing bond markets, the bond market technology has not changed significantly in the last several decades, even though the underlying bonds have issuances or trading of bonds as exploded like, you know, maybe a hundred times over, right? Trading still happens over phone calls. The minimum ticket sizes of bonds are typically in the US dollar 200,000 range, which makes it inaccessible for millions. It's also predominantly non-exchange traded, which hurts price transparency and also it's largely illiquid. So other asset classes, stocks, products, commodities, etc, which are all OTC non-exchange traded, have moved to electronic exchanges and we want to make bonds the next to trade on exchanges. The complexity of bonds requires deep domain and technology. So that's why it has not really happened to the extent it should and that's where the bond blocks bond exchange comes into being. So we are live today. We are an electronic exchange that allows you to trade bonds like equities. It's transparent and it's fair as an exchange. Just a couple of things. You can see our live pricing on both Refinitiv and Bloomberg. So it's available on all queue if you're familiar with that. There are also dedicated pages that you can find. So what is bond blocks? It's the world's first fractional bond exchange where you can actually trade a minimum of $1,000. We are regulated by the MAS and we follow like any of the regulated exchanges. We are not direct to consumer. We are not crypto. We work through our partners, our trading members. So it's a B2B2C model where banks, asset managers, new B2C fintechs, brokers, market makers, etc. are members and then some of them like banks or brokers can provide indirect access. In order to create, facilitate this market, they can integrate to us via various mechanisms including full scale integrations to their existing platforms via APIs. Or we also have a very quick go to market ability for them using our readily deployable trading applications. We are integrated with global custodians and they act to safeguard all the client monies and assets on the exchange. So with both Northern Trust and Citi who as I'm sure all of you are aware are probably the largest custodians in the world. And of course we're very honored to have Orijith and Ryan on this panel and they'll be able to share a lot more of their experience as well. So how does this work? So I wanted to use a couple of examples or a couple of the flows that we have to give you an insight into how this works. How does T plus zero or instance element work? How does the fractionalization work, right? And what is the kind of anonymity we have? So with that, let me start by talking about fractionalization. So the fractionalization of bonds conceptually is very much like depository receipts if you're familiar with it. So if you look at what happens, a market maker who's a member on our exchange can bring in a bond, let's say 200 K of HSBC perpetual bond by transferring it to our custodians. And then the custodians then custodize and safeguard the bonds and they confirm receipt of this to the blockchain, right? So this actually is in the form of a transaction to the blockchain and they just confirm it to their nodes. When that happens, I'm just going to segue into what then happens under the hood. So we use hyper ledges or two. And what then happens under the hood is that the transaction gets distributed to all the nodes in the network. One of the nodes we use PBFT consensus. So we've looked at various consensus and PBFT is both non-forting, so we want to wait like existing exchanges on crypto that are on proof-of-stake blockchains, right? Where they have to wait, it can port, so they have to wait for much to get created. So PBFT has a fun thing about so-called Byzantine port order and so it defends the network. So the node, one of the nodes plays the role of a leader and this is rotational and it distributes, it orders these blocks, orders these transactions into blocks and distributes it to all nodes. And then the transactions are executed by all nodes. So in a blockchain system, it isn't that one node executes the transaction and just sends the results to everyone. All nodes actually execute and this is how it defends itself, right? And then just traditional databases where data can just get passed across to each other. All nodes then compare results with each other and a node will then begin to commit only if two thirds of the network greater than two thirds have identical results. So it ensures that no nodes can have or a set of nodes if they have changed the way transactions are processed, right? So the network can still defend itself against that, right? And each node then commits that block to its ledger. So if you go back to our use case, the custodian has passed this transaction. It's gone to all the nodes. The consensus process has run and then what then happens is that the ledger gets updated and one-to-one backbone blocks are created on the blockchain. So all the ledger and all the nodes update and you can see there's an anonymous account for the market maker. We don't store PII or anything else on the blockchain and this is $200,000 are available off that bond but in fractions of $1,000, right? And one of the really cool things about some of the blockchain networks including Sawtooth is that you can each node will then send out events. So anybody connected to that node will actually receive that update instantaneously via events. The cache component also works the same way. So if a member wants to sell or buy bond blocks, they can transfer cash to our custodians and the custodian follows the same process. The network follows the same process to create that cache holding in their bond blocks accounts. We also allow for bonds to be funged back. So we call it a dual fungible structure. So they can be funged in and in a similar process if a market maker wants to take the $200,000 back to the secondary market, they can do so. And the custodian then confirms the transfer to the network and all the nodes update and the ledger is again updated. So we'll take a look also at the trading flow, right? So in the trading flow, firstly, I've just depicted a market maker account and a member who can be a bank or broker who's allowing indirect access to their clients. So the client now has funded their account with $1,500. It's all there on the blockchain. The market maker then places an order and they don't need to place a $200,000 order. They can place multiple orders and as low as $1,000. The members client places an order through the member to buy for $1,000. And then the exchange, like any other exchange, we use a central limit order book and we match orders, right? And so you'll see that these two orders match and we then send a confirmation of the trade to the blockchain. So in today's market infrastructure, typically these confirmations, they have to be sent to multiple participants because every participant maintains their own set of records and so on. And it kind of takes a long time for all of that to reconcile and process, which is why you end up with that T plus two settlement. The magic of our setup and the underlying blockchain is this, right? So once the confirmation comes in, the ledger and all the nodes update, why are the same consensus process and transaction execution process? The settlement is instantaneous because we all of us have the same single source of truth. And immediately the market makers account and the members client account shows those updates. And as always, the blockchain can efficiently communicate this out instantaneously via events to all participants. So the member within a few seconds and the market maker within a few seconds and can see that on whatever interface they are using to connect to the exchange, right? So from our perspective, the blockchain basically provides, and Julian had spoken about it. It's not a single source of record, but it's just the way that single source of record, which is distributed securely this process securely, it's immutable, etc. And, you know, for us, we also found that it's really super efficient way of communicating the transactions changes to the ledger to all participants. Of course, the benefits, it improves efficiency, it's increases trust, and therefore it reduces reconciliation efforts resulting in that t plus zero settlement. It also enables new models of execution. So we just saw the fractionization flow as well. So with that, I wanted to talk a little bit about the challenges of doing this. The proof of concepts are easy, right? It took us maybe a couple of people a couple of months on the outside to learn something new, and set up something try out a couple of transactions, see how the ledger updates. And typical small proof of quick proof of concepts will result in you figuring out whether it's how usable it is, but it really it's not usable outside of the proof of concept. Production is really hard, right? So why is production hard? What you want is this screen, what you want your clients to experience is something like this, right? In order to achieve this, you need to follow all the other good practices that you follow for your other applications. So you need to be able to have the application have high availability, have monitoring, you know, be able to deploy updates to the application itself, and so on and so forth like reporting. So what we have done to achieve this and this is where it then took us, let's say a couple of dozen engineers like a year and a half to get there. And this is to build this and we use cutting edge serverless technology on top of our blockchain network to synchronize it with external databases to combine data to provide rich, very enriched data to the front end, and all of this from the back all the way from the blockchain all the way through to the front end is all even driven so you get things as in when they happen instantaneously. So what are some of the challenges and lessons learned? This is something that's really critical. This technology paradigm is still new. Oftentimes today with a lot of new-ish technologies, some of them we say technologies are new, they're five, six years old still. So if you take on the front end, you take ReactJS, you take NodeJS, you take Java, right? You can just go to Stack Overflow and you find almost all kinds of solutions, right? This paradigm is new. There aren't that many people who have experienced it to the degree that you actually get answers easily. So in our case, we have actually gone through several hundreds of thousands of lines of logs, have gone through the actual board, have compiled and built the underlying platform because this is all open source, made some changes and seen how that works. So you need to have that level of commitment. The deployment of updates, again, it requires a coordinated effort because now every node operator needs to have the same transaction process work the exact same way otherwise the consensus will fail. So if you had a web app, you could simply make updates anytime either if you find a defect or if you want to quickly add some new features. But in the case of blockchain network, you've got to be a lot more deliberate, right? So what you need to have is really good robust processes, agreements, guidelines between all of the node operators and also ensure you have to take a lot of care that your smart contracts are really well designed, reviewed, tested before every production release. There's very little way to go back once you go forward right on this. The blockchain may not be the best execution platform for very complex transactions. So it all depends on your use case, of course, but oftentimes we get asked this question of TPS, right? And it kind of reminds me of in India we always ask questions and whether we look and look at a Ferrari or whether we go to buy, you know, like your family said, we ask how much mileage does it give, right? So that question is probably relevant is you have to treat it as horses for horses. But having said that, there are a couple of things to note, right? If you have a network of, if you have five nodes, five computers, then you're, you know, and you had a web application, you can actually distribute requests across all five and they'll handle different requests. In the blockchain network, all five are actually executing the same transaction. And having said that, this way of executing the same transaction and then updating the ledger at different, that's maintained with different participants, it brings great efficiency. That's why we're able to go from T plus two to T plus zero. So that's really the benefit, right? And therefore you need to balance what work you do on, what work you do off the chain. I think about that the data in our network is anonymized. So we need to be able to combine both off chain data and enrich it, sorry, on chain data and enrich it with off chain data, we need to be able to integrate it with our existing applications existing infrastructure So you need to account for that. If you really want to go to production. And lastly, you need to think of how would you do disaster recovery, how would you maintain availability. So as a regulated exchange, we have certain obligations to our members, right? So a certain recovery time objective that might be, let's say four hours at the most. But of course, if anything is done, then our entire market is disrupted. It also causes other issues in terms of trust and so on. So you need to plan for how you would take care of that. How do you monitor your network? How do you automate recovery? How would you automate reconcilations if you're using your external database and the ledger and so on. So this is what it will take for you to get from the POC to production. That I'd like to stop here and then you can reach me at this. If you have any questions, I'll try to answer a few during the course of the panel as well. But I'd like to get back to Julian now and thank everyone for listening to me. Julian, over to you. Exactly. That was a great, great presentation. Thank you for the challenges opportunities while using using sawtooth. That was really, really, really good. Thank you. So now what we're going to do in the next 15, 20 minutes, we're going to talk to the panel. Yeah. And then we're going to take some cue. I see a bunch of questions coming in. So please continue those questions, some technical some of the business, please. And I'll ask the panelists those questions as well. But I'm going to first start with, and I think I'll start with our jet because he's more fresh and early than all of us. So where do you see a blockchain being imperative and proving and reinventing the financial infrastructure. It's kind of like what we're doing, but one debate is done. Yeah, thank you, Julian. And the excellent presentation, Raj. This was, this was great. So, yeah, blockchain as as we in the financial industry all recognize this probably a game changing technology and we first got from more than trust point of view involved in this five plus years ago. When we began to recognize that, you know, you have a technology which gives us the ability to, to share information, but also share operational processes in a trusted immutable manner across various parties and if you really look at a macro level financial institutions, really do that they have established operational procedures they have data and they share that amongst different parties. And because traditionally these methods of sharing has had to have reconciliation layer on top of it, and other operational processes, it has sometimes been cumbersome. But with blockchain we recognize that that there is perhaps the ability to do that very efficiently with the network itself so how do you recognize that we made our first foray into this blockchain world with an application in the private equity space and then we used hyperledger fabric to develop that this was, I don't remember exactly what five or five or so years ago, we launched it live with the private equity funds, and we leverage this capability of blockchains to bring some efficiencies into the capital call process for private funds. Since then, obviously, lots of different things have happened and and when Raj and Rahul came up with this fantastic use case for blockchains. We were very excited to be part of it, but coming back to your question, the fundamental disruption that we see here is, at least I see here is that you for the first time, you have the ability for different institutions and participants to trust the operational processes without the need for a central party to endorse it so once you have all the different participants agree that they're going to operate on a certain set of data in a certain way, and that is distributed across the network. The role of the central party is somewhat diminished, and that gives rise to lots of different ways in which we can get operational efficiencies. We do not have to spend so much time and effort on reconciliation processes, and it also gives rise to newer products like the fractionalization of bonds that Raj talked about. But there's other products that is going to come up. So I do think this is a game-changing technology and no one can really predict the future, so we'll have to see and go along the journey of this exciting story as it unfolds. Yeah, excellent. So yeah, a lot happening there, right? So, Ryan, would you want to add to that? Yeah, sure. So just to comment on Arrogit's view and then also just to add some additional views from me. So I very much agree with Arrogit's assessment. So blockchain is really about sharing real-time data across an ecosystem in a mutable and trusted way because it's really about breaking down data silos. And if we can move to a world where a value chain is sharing the same set of data, then we can start to synchronize processes across us. So processes today are supported sequentially along a value chain. There's lots of duplication. There's lots of messaging and reconciliation to keep entities in check. It's feasible that actually those workflows could be deployed centrally onto a blockchain and each of those entities enrich the transaction in line with their own service provision. So that's a really, really interesting concept. Clearly, that can speed up informational flow, speed up settlement as we're seeing in Bondi value, but also make the end-to-end transaction life cycle significantly more efficient as well. Just to add a couple of additional thoughts. So one use case of blockchain is tokenization as we're seeing here with Bondi value and Bondi value really leading the charge here with regards to bonds. But that concept can also be extremely interesting for other asset classes, things like alternative assets, private equity, for instance, that have significantly longer and less efficient transaction life cycles. So there's a really interesting near-term opportunity to make those kinds of investments significantly more efficient. And I think the final thing I'd add here is that the way blockchain is being deployed in some use cases is effectively creates a always-on 24 by 7 cross-border network. So this has the potential to really change market structure and it's feasible in the medium term. We could start to see markets operating cross-border 24 hours a day and settling same day, maybe even real-time. So that's a really interesting concept. This is not just about investment flows in country. This is cross-border investment flows and it could really have a revolutionary impact on all of our business models. Yeah, I think from what I see, multi-CVDC seems to be the thing, right? This is going to be the wholesale CVDCs could revolutionize how settlement done real-time. There's a lot of work almost done here at HKMA, but the MAS is also working on that. So yeah, a lot of possibilities. So what do you think? Raj, do you want to add to that? Any thoughts yourself there? I think both Ryan and Rajit have covered it. I think some of the use cases that we talked about are totally enabled because of the power of this framework. Okay, so we know it's the right thing. It's happening here and bonds, but I think lots of other places. Actually, in a previous webinar, we talked about that bonds are kind of always been underrepresented and difficult to get to. And that's what this is obviously enabling more people to get access to bonds. But it's been a challenge, surely. There's been some challenges. What have been the challenges from a technology perspective, from a custodian perspective? So maybe I'll start with Ryan on that one, right? What do you see the challenges, obviously, on this? Yeah, I mean, there has been challenges naturally. I think one of the key challenges for us all is just the sheer fragmentation of use cases and technologies and standards across the globe. As an industry, we've been pretty good at getting to standardized messaging and workflows and market practice over the years. There's not one type of blockchain. There's many different types of blockchain and there's many different ways that those protocols are implemented. And on top of that, there's many different market practices and standards that define how that network is used, right? So what we're seeing is we're seeing a huge number of use cases with a large number of implementation types, a large number of protocols, and that can be quite daunting. Right, so certainly for investors that might just want to get access to the asset and are not really concerned by the technology, right? So I think the challenge for us all certainly as service providers is to really try and abstract that complexity and build solutions that connect our clients into those markets in a scalable and streamlined way. And potentially make them backward compatible as well. Okay, so if clients do not want to change how they communicate, they do not want to change the formats they use, then they should be able to continue with them changing their own time that still get access to the market. So I think that's really key to ensure that we can minimize the barriers to adoption and allow these new networks to scale. And I think the other thing I just highlight here is just regulatory uncertainty. Okay, so I think naturally regulators are interested in anything new. What we need to try and differentiate here is the asset class and the services that are being provided from the technology itself. So clearly if the asset class is new, if the services being provided a new, that should require an in-depth regulatory dialogue. But actually if just the technology is different, okay, then actually there should be a very close discussion of regulators to help them understand actually the nature of the services are the same, but the underlying technology may be different and helping them to understand what that means. So I think it's incumbent on us all to really work with regulators as this ecosystem evolves to help them to understand really where the key risks are and where they need to focus their minds. Okay, I think the regulator is key and I think we'll talk about the maybe a little, you know, this went through a sandbox. I think that may be a key to a success. So, Arajit, do you want to maybe add to those? I'm sure you've had similar and other challenges. Yes, and I agree with everything that Ryan was saying there. The regulatory challenges are there. Less so for an existing asset class as he says, if you start, you know, talking about completely new asset classes is a lot more challenging. But for me, I have more of a technical lens and my problems that I had to solve was one or other standards that Ryan already mentioned, because not only are there so many different types of blockchains, but there's like different ways of interacting with them. There's all sorts of network requirements, which are different, et cetera, et cetera. But just following up on something that Rod said that, you know, lab is easy, production is hard. I mean, and boy, did we find that out when we were trying to deploy this thing, right? And also for a private equity application that we did, because it works great in a quote unquote sandbox lab environment. But the moment you try even installing it in a production environment or even a production like environment, enterprise environment is very challenging. You start off by saying that, oh, I can't connect to anything because all my firewalls and proxies and everything block all connections. You know what, I try to install Hyperledger, it wants to go pull something down from GitHub and we can't do that. And then, then, you know, once you got it up and running, et cetera, then you realize that, you know, oh, now I can just let it run in isolation, because, you know, if you remember the use case, there are two legs to this. There is the real world quote unquote real world fiat leg. And then you have the blockchain leg and we have to meet somewhere, right? So now you can just have this little thing on the side, it's got to become part of your enterprise, you know, overall mesh and, you know, to connect them together again become extremely challenging from a technology point of view, while maintaining that abstraction that Ryan was talking about so that you don't have to redo this for every single different type of blockchain that you start connecting with. So architecting all of that, getting it through the information security groups, understanding all the different protocol subtleties that are needed. The operational oversight, the monitoring, the triggers, because our operational groups and support groups have to understand, you know, what triggers are relevant in this environment to react and what are being or not because it's not like traditional systems. So I can go on and on and on, but there were a lot of challenges. So anyone who wants to undertake this journey, and if you've seen something that works great in a demo environment, don't be fooled. When you take it into a real production environment, you've got work to do. It works. It works eventually with this blood sweat and tears involved. Excellent. Excellent. So it is a challenge, right, but hopefully a worthwhile challenge, right. So you've looked at lots and lots and lots of lessons from there. And actually what it seems to be I hear again is integration integration seems the issue. So you have so maybe somebody else can ask this you are in a you have your own corporate enterprise. It's kind of standards blockchain probably doesn't fit sweetly into into the enterprise architecture framework. Is there anything who would advise anyone about how to do that or help in that kind of environment how they can Yeah, I mean, lots of communication and education of the different enterprise teams early in the process is helpful because, you know, in a larger institution and, you know, not interested fairly large institution, not as large a city bank but but we have lots of different areas which have oversight about different things and not all of them have the same level of understanding of the technology. We're talking about within the technology groups right so you've got the information security group you've got the network group etc etc so lots of communication education explanation transparency as to exactly what you're trying to do helps alleviate people's problems. It's like, you know, really shining the light on on. There's no mystery here. This is not magic. It's not witchcraft. You can look inside and this is what's happening and then people start getting to be comfortable. A lot of that is relationship and education and showing people what what's happening on the front of the foot so that they can start getting comfortable that's how you navigate the corporate groups. So we've got the way I look at this two elements here this the technical services that are developed to connect into these networks but also integrating to existing enterprise technology that that's one element of it. And that takes really. We need to really engineer that stuff where we need to make it future proof because these technologies are going to change over time. The second part which is probably slower is understanding how existing enterprise policies need to change for this technology. And that that takes as I would say that takes a lot of blood sweat and tears and communication with key stakeholders across the firm. So they understand exactly why this is different. This is not bad. This is just different. This is the stage where we understand which policies need to change why they need to change and how they need to change so that so that does take time. Yeah, do you want to add more to that right. As I was speaking, you know, I was, I couldn't help smile because I just give an example of some of the challenges right so almost right before we went production last year, right, we were waiting for quite a long time with the Northern Trust, and we heard that every now and then their notes would stop syncing up. Right, and we looked at the network configuration so we went back to sort of the usual suspects right but but it took us literally looking at you know, thousands and thousands of lines logs to figure out that there was a difference between our transaction person what is deployed there right and in the minute we sorted that out, we were able to go really comfortably into production because until that point right there was always this thing that why is this happening, right and we never had answers. We really had to begin we really had to look at what sort of itself was doing that to look at what we were doing. We were immediately just reviewing the code and sorry the logs and you know these are logs that are really hard to read because they are voluminous and you really need that volume of logs to have the level of detail you need to begin. So that's that's that's an example of some of the difficulties, you know many other cases like I said, you can just type into Stack Overflow and say this is what is happening I get five answers and we'll be able to figure out if there are no answers and stop Stack Overflow or any of the other forums yet because this requires that level of experience and you have to go through the blood sweat and tears that as you talked about. Exactly this is all new right there's no new but there's no book to refer to right. We're all learning as we go as we go along right. So, so actually I think we're going to go to the Q&A now we have about 10 minutes left. So, actually, if you guys want to have a look at the panelists at the questions, but I think I think one is it seems to come up is specifically, maybe we'll talk specifically you know what which bonds are what kind of bonds are now fractionalized on bond blocks. Right. So, so as on now, we, we are looking or we have fractionalized a number of bonds that are largely investment grade their US dollar or single dollar issuance is right. We have about 20 I think at this time listed, but we keep listing continuously every month and, and we have a certain criteria for the type of bonds that can be listed on the exchange. So we do not, you know, we look at, we look at bonds that are are have a reasonable level of liquidity in the second mark, secondary market so that they, they are available to our participants on as needed. And we also look at, you know, the investment, the creditworthiness of the issuer, the kind of issuance, obviously the currency, the sector, and so on and so forth. And we continuously keep adding every month. So our goal is to have maybe 100 bonds of the top bonds listed on on the exchange over the course of the year. Another direct question is how do they go and how do they go and see it? I presume they could there's a demo on site online and they can just to see the bonds or to see a demo of our application. Yeah. How do you how do you trade how do I how do I how do I want to trade. I just posted an answer. You can reach out to me and of course we will make some of this available to experience over a period of time on our site but anybody interested can reach out to me so I just responded with my idea. Reach out, they'll organize a demo for you. Actually, an interesting question here is this is obviously an operations play and it creates a new opportunities but is there any, how does it affect liquidity to will it help the quality or is that not known yet in bonds? Maybe I'll take the first stab at this right so so certainly operations and settlement efficiency is one of the benefits which is the people are zero but if you look at it, we spoke about many of these bonds being at a minimum trading lot, trading lot size of 200k right and on the exchange you can actually trade them by them at $1000 minimum, which we believe will actually significantly increase liquidity as well. So, also other factors right it's exchange traded you know you as a client, you don't have to trade over the phone call you can see the price you can make decisions you can click and buy. So I think all of this will exchange will increase liquidity. Okay, now the question that they're all asking is how does this compare with. Why do you not choose quarter or fabric or other DLCs was that why why why saw teeth. So, good question, I think so on the every blockchain has its own advantages has its own disadvantages has its own has use cases that has suited to that right so if I take something like code up, for example, then code as a blockchain. It is, it's very peer to peer in the way it works right so, so if two participants want to exchange assets, they, they actually each signed that contract, and then, and then the, you know there's a note and network of notaries that will then ensure that they're not burning burning more assets than they have, and then, and both of them then can settle that. So there is, it is, it's very peer to peer is very for me, it's like how the OTC markets work in a way right so for an exchange or traded we needed some blockchain platform that allow us to have this all to all kind of platform right so you're not going peer to peer and and so the hyper ledger family in general accomplishes that but saw to just to talk about sort of like why we chose sort of I think we're also lucky on a couple of fronts on sort of a it went to version one which is so when it starts getting somewhat stable at the time we started working on it. And then PBFT on sort of also came out around the same time, but fundamentally sort of this relative to many of the other blockchain networks it's very simple to simpler to deploy right it's got only one note type so I mean you don't have to fight about what kind of nodes you are going to install and allocate to whom, but also that one kind of node and there's one point of connection to other notes. So, if you take fabric then you, you, you have peers the peers have to connect with each of the other peers to get agreement to get validation of the transaction and then they send it for offering and then they're committing care so you kind of have a lot of points where you have to open up the networks, not so in in sort to much simpler to install got it's got inbuilt, you know, it's got permissioning a lot of these blockchains already to have. So it's got good support for permissioning it's got a good event framework, and it's got a good transaction processing framework as well. Okay, now we've got five minutes left so one quick question, maybe it may be a custodian question it says, how do you manage the coupons on a bond. I'm not sure maybe that's too specific. How do you manage coupon payments and the underlying bonds. I presume that's. I think I'll let Arjeet, he's done a few of these now. Yeah, I mean, from the, from the business angle we can jump in right but but from the, from the technical flow angle is no different from from the other flows right so you the picture that Raj showed earlier where you had an event like transfer for bonds similar event would happen to the custodian which would be a coupon payment and coming from the depository. And then that would trigger the same sort of flow that he showed in this diagram which is a transaction to the blockchain informing the blockchain that this has happened and then there is internal algorithms that you have Raj in your system which then sends that transaction and make sure that the right participant gets the right part of it. So from the custodian point of view it's very similar to all the other flows that we have. Okay, I think that makes sense, definitely. So we've got another four minutes left I'm going to start with with a kind of round Robin question right. Kind of mark out of 10. So how far we on this journey I mean this journey specifically for for bond blocks is about providing comprehensive access for retail investors to the global bond markets. So out of 10, where do you think we are today. And actually, this is something else in five or 10, 10 years time how far do you think we'll be out of 10. So, I'm going to start with our agit specifically for for this use case. I think blockchain in general I would say we're, we are at a one because we are just getting started. We haven't quite hit the inflection point of where you have enough participants to really start changing the way the entire market behaves. So I would say at a one and your second question was five years from now. It's hard to say I mean, but, but it's probably going to be a five, if I would guess. Yeah, I agree with that. I think we're at one. I think what we're starting to see now is we're starting to see real interesting use cases in production such as bonding value. We're also starting to see some countries change issue a law to allow native digital assets to be issued rather than tokenizing assets that already exists so that's a really interesting evolution. Probably not as optimistic as our jet in five years time I think we'll probably still be around three maybe four if we're lucky I think this has got a real long way to run. I think it's also important to understand that in the short to medium term the world's about to get a lot more complex. We as in the service providers need to invest to connect into these networks and build solutions, but in the longer term, it will result in a much more efficient transaction life cycle and significant cost reductions as well. Okay, so that was so we got that was a three to four right. I was a one to start with was it one to three. Yeah, but a one to five. So, Roger you positive. This is a bit dicey to ask this under the circumstances, but yeah, I think I'm not positive on on their blockchain is is so I think today we are of course I you know in the early stages of that. And we also have to remember that this is technology that that many of the fundamentals have been there the algorithms for many of these have been there from the 70s or 80s. Right. So I think we sometimes if you take a five 10 year look at it, we are only 40 years since when some of the building blocks have come in right and I think a progress and various other fields will also influence this. I think we are somewhere in the two to three mark right now. And if you get to six in a few years from now we're we are doing pretty well. You're a little bit more optimistic. So, excellent. It's not going to show that it's on the technology side. You tend to be maybe more optimistic and I was just going to say that I mean that divided me and start right the technologies are always like we're going to change the world. The custodians are practical right is that right. I think pragmatic. Things are going I did a webinar the other day was someone had a minus figure in five years for something else. This is all good. So this is progression right so and I think it's a great it's a great story and you know an amazing thing to have this live and thank you everybody here you know obviously this is for attending this this webinar. Thank you, Raj. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you everybody for attending. We've got tons of questions we'll see whether we can get to all of those afterwards. So I think I'm going to wrap it up here. Thank you everyone. Take care. Keep safe and hopefully see you soon. Take care. Cheers. Bye.