 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Engaging Ideas. Today, we'll be talking with Avilika Van Rijn about leadership and digital transformation in the social sector. I'd like to thank you all for joining us, and please don't forget to subscribe or leave us a review after the episode. And now on to the show. I'm joined today by Avilika Van Rijn, coming to me from Scotland. This is exciting. I think this is my first international interview, so I'm very pumped up right now. She's currently serving as the CEO of the Resource Alliance, and their mission statement is, the Resource Alliance's mission is to change the world by weaving together a global alliance of people fighting for positive change and equipping them with the knowledge and resources they need to accelerate lasting social impact. Welcome to the show. Thanks very much. All right. Well, let us dive in. So we had a wonderful conversation a few weeks ago, and we talked about many things. It was awesome getting to meet you for that first time. But one of the things we talked about, you have an upcoming IFC conference, and we talked about your theme for the conference, which is Unite. But I'm hoping you could tell our audience who might not be familiar with the conference or what's going to go on there a little bit about the conference, and then also how you came to choose Unite as the theme for the conference this year. Yeah, thanks very much. So the IFC stands for the International Fundraising Congress, and it is held in the Netherlands from the 18th till 20th of October this year. And it will be our 41st conference that we are holding. So it has quite a history, and it brings the world of fundraising change makers in the social impact sector together. If you ask people about what is it all about, I think conference is not the right word. It's more seen as a three-day festival where people link, share, connect with each other, really around the topic of fundraising, resource mobilization, campaigning, social movement building, and learn from each other and also start collaborating with each other to create a better impact. Where last year after COVID, we finally came back and our theme was around shaping the future together, that together elements was more important than ever. So this year our theme will be Unite. And what we mean with Unite is Unite you can do in different ways. One element is around the focus of Unite within your organization. You know, we have many organizations where we hear conversations about silos. We have a communications department, the fundraising department, and campaigning department, and they all work in silos and are not really connecting with each other. Or the program department is seen separately as the public engagement area. So that uniting is really crucial, especially when you're talking about creating impact and that's in the end what we're all here for to do. It's also about Unite linked in the sector. You know, there are tremendous amounts of organizations working around climate change. There are a lot of organizations working about ending poverty. But it's very clear one organization on its own will not achieve that big mission, you know, to really tackle the climate change or to end poverty. So there is definitely a look at how can we create collaborations and therefore a bigger impact to achieve together? And how can we learn there from each other and work with each other to establish that? And then last but not least, and that's why partly we talk about the social impact sector and not necessarily about civil society organizations alone anymore or nonprofit organizations alone anymore. We see a lot of impact happening from other parts of the world. You know, social movements have been created by individuals. Think about the Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter, Think Greta, you know, who initiated a whole movement around tackling the climate change. Those are examples about other people that are involved that are not necessarily linked to a nonprofit organization anymore. But also, you know, we look a lot at social enterprises at the moment, the B-Corps that are stepping up and really expanding very fast so where a lot of opportunities are there. So really we want to build on their expertise, their knowledge and see how nonprofit organizations can really work with them to create that reach, to create that voice that is so much needed and to create a change and impact that we want to establish. So yes, it's united on many different levels. It's all about bringing people and ideas together and making it happen. I love it. I love how it layers really well too, you know, from the inside the whole way to the global perspective. I'm curious for two quick follow-ups for anyone who is listening. Is there, from this, do you put reports out? You know, if you're watching the B-Corps and then you're sort of funneling it down, is there like a learning management system or something or some way people can get to your reports or the knowledge and everything you're gaining and how do you share once the conference ends? How do you get into it? Well, once the conference ends, we definitely share our content to as wide an audience as possible. And in one way, we started doing that by providing the conference not only in person anymore, but in hybrid versions. So that means that online, a lot of people really can join. And besides that, we really work with what we call our virtual content library, where we really want to give access to that knowledge and expertise to as many people as possible. I think it's partly about disseminating that content and what we sometimes call the democratization of knowledge so that everyone can really build on it. It's crucial, I think, when we're looking at civil society organizations or social impact in a broader sense, that we start learning from each other and not reinventing the wheel. The wheel has been invented already and really, really can build on each other and with each other. And the beautiful thing I think when we're talking about social impact is that that's what we want to do, because in the end, that's what's needed to create its impact. Oh, my heart's jumping with joy, yes. A thousand percent agreeing with everything you're saying right now. Yes, the wheel has been invented. How do we keep moving forward? And it's interesting, the silos within orgs, we see that all the time. And I always think of where does that come from? Where's the transformation? And I've wrote once about it, I think it was starting in HR and finance where you have this annual goal and then you have your individual HR performance goals and budget for that year, and I have mine. And the two aren't really linking. So like, how do we get the whole org thinking about it? But in your second about the sector, which is interesting, I wrote down the word co-operative, which I heard a lot as I was growing up over the last 23 years in the nonprofit sector, where we're working on the same issue, but then we're still competing for the same funds at some point. And, you know, I know it's a theme that you want to get into this year, but do you have any thoughts on that? Like, how do we actually start to get to that collaborative place where you don't feel you're necessarily competing? You really could cooperate? Yeah, personally, I have to say, I absolutely cannot stand the word competition when we're talking about social impact sector. I think as soon as we start talking about competition, we probably have lost the plot. It's a statement, I know. But I really think we have lost the plot because in the end, you know, and it's interesting what you're saying about your personal, what are your personal targets? What is, for example, the target of a fundraising area? And often that is mentioned in an income target, but that's not necessarily why we are there working in the social impact sector. You know, it is not to achieve those 10 million or plus 100,000 income this year. It is really to create that impact and the driven purpose for what we are there. So it's crucial to keep that cost, the cost that we are working for in mind. And if that is not our starting point, then we get into elements of competition, you know, who is sending out a message to our supporters? Is it the campaign area? Is it the fundraising area? Is it the communications area? But if we start seeing it towards what kind of purpose are we really working upon and how can we really make it and establish that in the best way possible, then your 10 million or plus 100,000 becomes a complete different story. And you really start looking at other elements that are crucial there as well. And maybe to add to that, I think that is also really looking at the role of supporter in a different way. So as a fundraising department, if you see a supporter as a donor and that's what a supporter does, you know, if the person gives you a financial donation and nothing else, I feel sometimes that it really kind of narrow-minded because that supporter perhaps also want to raise her or his voice. The person also maybe want to allocate some time towards the cause. And we really notice that the more a person is involved in the cause and in the work that is happening, you know, the more loyal the person will be towards other elements as well. And you see often a combination there of doing different things. It is not saying pushing everyone to do everything at once, but definitely giving people the opportunity to do so is really crucial. And I think if we start seeing people as human beings and when they are asked, often actually we still receive a yes towards initiatives to be part of a cause. That's really a beautiful, a beautiful aspect where we want to be. Yeah, I mean, we we talk a lot about him. We came up with a model over the years we call engagement architecture because for me it was it was never about pure attention or one interaction. It was, you know, and it's talking to a person a couple of weeks ago in Philadelphia and he's working in fundraising and he was trying to change the mindset from the donation given at a single point in time to with a lifetime value of engagement with the organization. You know, he did this data and he found like 40 percent of their current, I don't know, big donors started out with like a hundred dollar gift, you know, but over the course of 20 years, they've evolved and then they're really committed and now they're they're putting a lot more towards it. And I'm with you. I think there's an undervaluing what we can do over time when people start to feel aligned with us. And as you're talking, my head was just going to between the the internal at the York between the sector and between the the stakeholders. It's like, how do we all share the mission? You know, so we all feel a part of it and then we can all have to push it forward rather than I'm just doing this piece and I got to own this and don't don't tell me what I'm supposed to do. Like, how do I take more feedback in? And how do we how do you do it on those levels? It's kind of where my head was going when you were talking. Yeah, we had some beautiful examples of that recently. So we had a big online conference about digital fundraising, but we also looked there at, in a way, like movement building and a constituency building around certain causes. And there was an organization in India. It's called the Internet Freedom Foundation that is fighting for freedom rights in India and the freedom of speech around the around internet related topics. And they are quite a legal organization. It's not the easiest of topics to raise funds for, but they really built a constituency, a constituency where they involve their supporters, explaining why there is a need for this. They are really organizing those kind of monthly webinars to explaining about the projects that they are doing, the successes that are happening, but also how the constituency and the supporter base can support them and what initiatives they can take to do more than only their financial support. And they really see a beautiful, loyal group there helping them. And that is supporting them in their work as well by saying, this is not only what we as an organization want, but we have a whole constituency behind us that is supporting us in the work that we are doing, which afford was a beautiful example to see that correlation between financial support towards the cause, but also doing additional things to make that happen. And see it almost as an integrated group of people, not necessarily office and the organization staff versus supporters, it really became unity. And that brings us, by the way, back to United, which is nice. It's so powerful, we just said, right, we're integrated in this. Like I've given my money, I'm integrated into your cause. Don't act like I just did this one thing and I'm not around anymore. Like I care about it a lot too, because I took this after-tax dollar and handed it to you to try to make a difference. Just curious, I might bounce around, like we talked about some of the questions, but you've recently just run a panel discussion at Catalyst 2030 and you and I were just talking about it. And some of this was about the role of and the change, I think, within the funding sector too, because as I'm hearing this, I'm like, how do we celebrate all of the wins? Like, if I'm working on this cause, I should be celebrating the other group that made a huge success rather than thinking, oh man, they got that, now they're going to get more funding than I'm going to get. So, you know, what role do funders have to play in this too, of helping to start to unite all of us and push things forward rather than keep us divided? Yeah, we had a beautiful discussion at the Catalyst Week. Catalyst 2030 is a network of social enterprises across the globe, and they organize this week a Catalyst Week where they bring people together to really discuss topics that are happening at the moment. And as a resource alliance, we combined our efforts with Wings, a network around foundations, together with Catalyst 2030 to talk about shifting the funding paradigm. And it's very much linked to shift the power. Where should the power lie? What is the role of the funders in it? But what's also the role of the fundraisers? Which of course we brought in, and often the interesting, I think part of the fundraiser is that it is that connects between the funder and the work in the projects that is happening and the people in the projects that is happening. And there was a very strong voice around principles that have been developed from the foundation's perspective towards saying, where is the community involved in here? You know, the community where we are implementing or executing or creating projects with, where is their voice? Because they have power and they know what is needed. Or if you're talking about climate change related topics or nature related topics, you know, are we really having that focus in mind where we're talking about shifting the power and shifting the funding paradigm? So in a way, I think it's always bringing it back to purpose. It's very nice to say, you know, this is what we want to do or we want to be nicer and trustful and truthful. But if we do not have the right stakeholders in that conversation and if we do not start at the right point, we are really missing an opportunity there. And in the end, we all know, you know, we all have powers in us. And if we need to change the certain things or if we need to improve certain things, I think we need to start by asking the people with whom it impacts and who really would love to make a change and transform. So yeah, I'm a very strong believer of it starts with the communities, with the people in the project involved. And that is the starting point. And for us, then it's almost a listening ear in the beginning. And from there, a translation towards what does this mean funding-wise and whom are we going to reach out to? And I think that's a beautiful element that we can play as fundraisers, you know? It is also that role of almost informing funders, this is what is happening in the fields. This is what is happening with the people in the program, you know, with whom we are working with. So you have kind of a translation role there, which is a beautiful, I think a beautiful perspective as a fundraiser to have those two worlds that you can connect into one. Yeah, my head's going to, we actually are just in my company having this interesting conversation of like, if we're selling a product and then we're a service, I should say we want to do products, and then the team's delivering it. How are we doing the feedback loops to make sure everything's working right? And we're tiny, right? So I'm thinking about like, how do you do that when it's, if you're the funding organization, to the fundraiser, to the work that's happening, to the communities that's happening within, you know, I think, yeah, I mean, how do we start to create this new pathway for people to listen? And just because you have the money at the top, and how do we, I mean, I don't want to send a route to any philanthropies out there. I don't mean it this way, but how do you not just call the shots because you've got the money? You know, how can you get humble and take some feedback? Yeah, and I think in the end, I think humble is a beautiful word there. And I think the other aspect is really keep in mind why we're there for, you know, it's really to create that purpose and that impact. And that's really has a starting point and that is the starting point at where the change and the transformation is happening. So start there with listening to the people, start there with understanding what is the issue, what are the needs, the real needs, instead of saying, we might think this might be helping you. And often that is a dialogue in two ways. You know, of course, beautiful ideas can come out from other parts of the world and from other elements as well, but then you're really getting into a dialogue and a conversation of how to achieve it in the best way instead of almost kind of an implementing or almost saying, this is what we think is best for you. I think we should avoid that very strongly. Yeah, the whole paternalistic white savior moment that happened for a long time in the development world at least. Yeah, absolutely. I wrote down, how do we do it together and not do it with, not to. Like when we're doing these activities, what I started thinking about when you said that because we have to re-establish trust within so many communities too over time and I think it was too often, this is the right thing for you so we're gonna do it because we see it, rather than how do I pull you into the conversation with me? Yeah, and then also in conversations, how do those conversations happen? We're often talking about equal partnership, but how do you know if an equal partnership is really established? That I think also that is quite important. Yeah, so the listening ear and the humble from definitely resonate there very strongly. So what role can data plane facilitating change as we start to think about this? Because there's always, there's qualitative which I think it matters very heavily in the type of work we do, but then there is quantitative that we can try to look at, to guide or steer a little bit to give us some indicators and direction and then there's also trying to keep that data safe if we're looking at it, but I don't know, maybe I'm leading too much to the question here. Yeah, what could data do for us? Well, data give you a lot of insights about what is happening and the results that you want to achieve. Data can give you also some nice niches, elements and or areas in it that are kind of golden nuggets that you want to explore further. Is there an opportunity that you see there that actually might have a broader impact or that we can accelerate upon because it's really seem to work? Data often gives you kind of the answer on the hypothesis that you might have. Is it correct? Is it not correct? And often by having the facts in hand that makes the position stronger to create more attention towards or to address more focus upon in any kind of form. It could be in raising voices, in raising funding for it to make it happen. I think sometimes we also have to be aware with data is that we are measuring up till now. So is that necessarily the way forward or how do we really look at data with what is the next new thing that needs to happen? So I think when talking about those niches they are quite important for me personally not to only look at the past but also what is the direction? So in a way innovation there is always crucial to explore new things to see if they could improve situations. And therefore challenge maybe some data points from now towards new data points in the future. So I think they are strongly aligned in a way but yeah, data is definitely giving you the facts and the stronger voice and arguments to create transformation. Yeah, you can see the pickup. You know, I was resonated with you there. We often find a lot because we do a lot of work with data too and analysis and helping people become a report. So look at it and democratizing data how do we really spread it out across the work but it is often to your point very rear view mirror like what happened in the past and what I've often found I really love to put innovation on it. It's seven matters because it's like I could try new things but if I haven't anchored it in some kind of way to judge or test what I'm doing I'm just spinning rather than pivoting. And a pivot is I'm making a clear decision based off of things that I've seen in the past and where I think I need to go heuristically into the future. And I'm going to measure it based on X, Y and Z but I feel like without that bit of data that wraps it, it's easy to get lost and it's easy to get into the cult of personality and Tony just thinks this is the way to go and I'm going to keep doing it whether I'm driving this thing into the ground or not. Yeah, that rear view comment is really important I think for folks to understand. Yeah, and for example, if we're talking about I see the international fundraising Congress we use a lot of research there to share with the participants and with audiences to really know what is happening where and what is working, what is not working. At the same time, I always liked the combination there with sharing the best practice. So how did you really do it? What was the crucial element to achieve that data? What did you do different compared to from years? And I think that's that combination of data effects combined with the knowledge behind the how it got established is really crucial for a lot of people to build upon. And many people might say, but I operated a different culture and that's completely true. I do not argue against that at all but again, there comes a little bit of point about inventing the wheel or reinventing the wheel. Is this something that you can build upon? Does this give you a starting block by saying, oh, so this works there? Maybe it works in our country and our area and our circumstances as well. Maybe with a tiny tweak or with a tiny, to really make it localized in your surroundings but at least you do not have to start from scratch somewhere. So yeah, I think that exchange across the world and across the globe is something that is really beautiful that everyone can build upon. And there is often a combination of that data combined with the how did the data get established? Yeah, I love the idea of, I talked about this here in the States too but just an open source knowledge framework because to your point, it has to be localized even in the US where I'm sitting working on child hunger in New York City is very different than Kansas City. And you could have similar steps to take but when you actually implement within those two very different metropolitan areas it's gonna look really different and it's gonna have to to be successful and I think globally is the same. So I worry too is that's something that funders need to take on too is making sure like, hey, we've collected all these best practices or we've seen it across our portfolio but I get it's gonna be a little different for you so how do you add into it? Is there a role for funders funding and that type of sort of knowledge share and experimentation? Oh, definitely and we would strongly argue as well. You know, they're the role of technology and how do you capture your data definitely come in? We did an interesting research last year with Blackboard that was really looking at what kind of organizations did really well of the COVID on which organizations did not do well and some strong elements were around how agile can you be? How fast can you measure that certain new initiatives are working or not? You know, with COVID and suddenly everyone is at home what do you do? Right, yeah, that was big. Yes, are you continuing with face-to-face which is not allowed anymore? For example, or are you swapping back to telemarketing activities because actually having a conversation at the time with somebody else and then your family in your own home was quite pleasant? And what is your messaging there and how do you build upon that? So what we noticed there is that as soon as technology was in place to capture data and really know very quickly this is working or this is not working or this is the feedback that we are getting and kind of measuring it really showed that organizations who had that technology in place and I would almost say with technology even have what I often call the fundraising basics in place do you measure what you're doing? Yeah, they really showed that they were ahead of the curve of the ones that did not have their basics in place and their technology in place. And another interesting part was so how did that really become that in one organization the technology was in place and others not? And of course it has to do with investments but actually the more important element there was leadership. Is leadership behind technology, innovation, trying, measuring, following up on it or is leadership not behind it? And that was actually the crucial element. So even when an investment might be there that does not necessarily mean that the decisions will be made of investing in it. And so yeah, the leadership role is really crucial of getting that technology in place and once it in place, also how do you allocate that data? You know, it's nice to capture data but do you use it and do you really adapt accordingly? And I think the COVID period really showed that we had to continuously change and adapt. And a lot of people would argue in the kind of perma crisis that we are in at the moment we still have to continuously adapt. Yes, and their technology is interesting, supporting more. Yeah, I mean, we definitely want to talk to you just about the role technology plays in transformation within the sector, the leadership role within it. And it's interesting because from that perspective it's honest, it's like it's not necessarily just about the technology tool. I think that's what people miss in digital transformation. It's a new way of working and then leadership needs to to your point invests and you're saying you've said adaptation and we've all talked about that but for me there's also like there's always a gap in adoption, you know. To your point, we've made an investment. I have this tool now, but do I have, did I put time and effort to train someone? Am I really in? Because you know, the return on implementing a new tool is probably like three years and everybody wants something in six months and then it doesn't work in six months and everybody gets upset about it but the money's been in and you know, it sounds like your report though that you did with BlackBot is proving out like, hey leadership, those that were ready and are willing to keep doing this you are going to continue to be successful. Those that haven't, you're getting left behind and I had worried about that going into that. I wondered where, I don't think we're through it yet but I've been wondering what the shakeouts really gonna look like between groups that were able to adopt and adapt compared to others that haven't and yeah. I don't know, sounds like you've got proof in the pudding, some groups are getting left behind. Yeah, and I think that's one of these hypotheses where we forge that might be true but it is very nice when you get it confirmed as well, especially for fundraisers in organizations who really want to convince their leaders to start implementing technology. So I really felt the report showed some proven data there and a stronger cause for support for many people and you know, organizations want to make that change. Another interesting element there is, you know we often talk about technology as the latest newest thing there and we are always curious, you know on innovation and new tech trends, what that will be. At the same time, we really notice with this research that many organizations do not have their CRMs in place or do not have optimized their, you know their the use of data allocation. And you could say, well, data can be optimized all the time but really feeling confident about it are you really using your data in the right way? A big percentage and a big group actually said, no, not yet, we are far from there. And I found it always fascinating where we're talking for example, now around the role of AI, the role of chat GPT and of course it is really important for all of us to see how we can utilize it and what it can do for us in the social impact sector but it's also bringing the conversation back do we have our basics in place, you know do we have an operating CRM if we are working with individuals and creating an individual supporter base are we using the data in the right way that we really can optimize our journeys with our audiences and really build on that and also see if we start trying and innovating new things if it's worry-working or not. So there is, I think technology-wise also differentiation between the latest tech trends and just starting with the basics. I'm following the same thing, yeah in the AI conversation it's just getting so big right now and I feel the same way, there's a lot of groups that the basics just aren't set yet and including just internally and how leadership could run a process and do you have, what's your innovation process like within your organization? What tolerance do you have for trying new things and what's your budget like for that and what freedoms are you giving staff to do something that might not work out because I think that's part of the truth and doesn't always work out the way you think it's going to and I don't know very many organizations that have invested I think they've heard digital transformation and they think I'm gonna acquire a tool and now I've transformed, I've acquired the CRM and you know that's to your point that's a really basic step but then as a leader how are you facilitating the ability to do that and not demand an instant result within a certain period of time instead of saying just give me the, just I have expectations and I was writing that down too a little bit what you're saying I think for the groups reading your report and they're trying to get groups the leadership on board with helping them get the technology in place it's like you need whether you can afford it or not or the time or not at least to set the expectation because you had talked about the groups that are talking about make sure you say what the what was for the learning and I'm always like what did it take also like it took 15 people for a year and a half focused on this thing like so I know you want this thing leadership but like we have two people we don't have a year and a half so like how do we reset expectations based off of the level of effort it takes to also do this work and the technology and data space yeah I think that's really crucial and that comes back to leadership again you know and of course it also comes back towards investments but it really starts with leadership is there that drive to really implement it the right way and to really make the right investments not only financially but definitely also human resources it's the whole thing and yeah digital transformation is just not tech it's all these other pieces and but the sector needs it I think to your point I mean if we're actually going to really be able to share these stories and create an open source knowledge framework that everybody can adapt and use and contribute to technology is going to enable that but the technology itself won't do it an AI system just won't do it and technology moves technology moves at such a pace that our organizations have to stop trying to stay on pace with it that they've got to get the basics first and then go back I remember a conversation I had with head of an organization and he was so enamored with wanting to be the Uber of the sector in the nonprofit space and I was like but you gotta understand being disruptive is disruptive it's breaking people's workflows and you don't have the capability to handle that with your staff you're gonna throw a lot of people off right and you're gonna see people leave your organization but you don't have a plan other than wanting to sort of make a mark and so like in the U.S. right the whole Silicon Valley tech, sexiness of trying something new I don't think it translates very well into what we're trying to do to create stability and performance for the long haul in the nonprofit space so yeah that tech pacing how much it slowed down a little I think as long as it's really leading towards that purpose you know what do we want to achieve in the end and tech for tech because it's fun I've got a software background long time ago I love the innovative elements of it but I think we need to keep in mind what is it really what we want to achieve and if technology can help there in different ways you know we're talking a lot about the form of fundraising perspective what we all know that technology really can that can create amazing new things I mean access to banks via mobile phones complete, complete change in the world you know even the fact that mobile phones are available almost everywhere on this planet at the moment and access to internet becomes so much more populated everywhere that's really it is a massive, massive game changer so I'm definitely not against technology I'm just really focused on is technology doing the right thing and then within that how is it accepted within your organization so bringing it back to the organization is it something just have to have or is it having a purpose to achieve the bigger purpose that you are there for I think for me everything should be aligned around that that's why we're operating the social impact sector so yeah, that's what it should do I'd get very enamored with technology and software development too so I do understand the draw and I played in that space for a long time too just another quick question too so most of the audience listening in here is going to be based over in the States and I've heard a lot and you're talking international fundraising group everywhere I mean what are some of the differences you see that are happening outside of the US and fundraising that we probably aren't paying attention to hear that we might want to start thinking about yeah, I think if you're really looking at different fundraising elements a lot of innovation is happening not anymore in the North what I would call but definitely in so-called global, global majority countries it's because they started later maybe sometimes it's because they start with a limited budget it's because new technology is available so for example we were talking about phones I mean the fact that you can make a payment in India and your phones for a couple of cents and it's accessible for everyone that is opening suddenly the doors to 1.4 billion people and I'm not saying all 1.4 people will have the capacity and capability of maybe to give a donation but it's a tremendous big amount of people we've seen in Kenya the mobile donations via M-Besa that's a completely different approach which is absolutely beautiful and are we building on that or do we want to translate something that happens in a European country towards Kenya I think there's a lot to learn there and sometimes they are really ahead of the curve because they missed a couple of the steps beforehand or because they suddenly now new things get introduced and they're really there and they really can build upon it and move faster so a lot of innovation is happening in different parts of the world and I think the beauty is where in the past we really saw kind of a North-South translation and capacity building now it is going West, East, North it's going in all the directions and that's the beautiful part of where we are at the moment yeah there is a tremendous amount of innovation learnings best practices happening everywhere and I think there is a big desire to understand more about it and see how we can translate that into our own cultures, areas of work oh I love it and it sounds like yeah your conference and all the work y'all are doing sounds like positions you really had a central point to pull a lot of that ideas together and with the Unite theme I was just thinking about as a lot of people have been starting to return to conferences and one thing I felt and I think other people do too is the relationship you get you're not alone in the social sector work either it's easy especially coming through COVID to have felt very isolated and it's very refreshing I think to be around other people that are trying to solve things like you're trying to solve and they're working on the things you're working on and you just get to talk to somebody about that for a little bit and that camaraderie I think that you're helping to facilitate globally I think is urgently important to your point for the many amounts of crises we're all trying to work on at the same time so thank you yes now I really appreciate it I mean it's beautiful to walk around with groups of people that come from over 80 countries and everyone is connecting with each other and sharing with each other and you know they really have that sense of being part of one big community and it doesn't matter where you are it doesn't matter how small or how big your organization is but just simply the desire of learning and sharing learning from each other sharing with each other and see about how we can collaborate together to really create that impact it's yeah I'm happy to be part of it that's incredible and thank you for I mean it is really amazing we're going to link to a lot of things in the show notes here I hope we'll get some attention and maybe some folks showing up to be part of that amazing community and at least get some of these reports downloaded before we start winding into some of the final questions so just to somewhat broad but maybe pulling us back to the basics you know if someone could start an organization from scratch today you know what are some of the key things you think they would need to address as part of their plan to build a sustainable organization nice question I would definitely say well and if it's an organization with a social impact purpose on it understand where your funding sources are coming from check whether you have the investments to make it happen towards you know achieving the cause and if you therefore need a new organization or you shoot a line with an existing one but I think in the end if you really want to make it happen it's all about the people I worked for a very long time with Oxfam and I've been involved in quite a lot of the startup of new affiliates and in the end it's absolutely about the people and the drive of people to make it happen you can have all the investments in the world but if you do not have the people with the drive and the passion to make it happen you're going nowhere so that's really crucial elements I'm sure the talent is available to push the mission forward and get the belief all aligned yeah thank you for that we often like to because we do a lot of change management work we try to say you know what would your organization be like if it didn't have any baggage if you could just take your head out of the moment and just imagine you didn't have any of that stuff that you're dealing with that's built up over years and what would you do if going forward that's why I love asking my question to folks kind of the burn the house strategy burn the house and start rebuilding it and how will it look like yeah how do we free our thinking from yeah to the every day that we sit in it's tough yeah it is really tough thank you so much this has been an awesome conversation I was very excited for this and for anyone who's a regular listener of the show you do know I ask the same question of all of our guests to close every episode and we have started a Spotify channel from all of these answers and today Velika I'm going to ask what is your go-to song when you need a boost and why this is such a tough question it really makes me laugh because I think the go-to song for me can varies from minute by minute day by day but I say it's the one that I went to this morning when I woke up and there is John Coltrane with Love Supreme oh nice one I recommend it to everyone got it on vinyl just listening to it the other day there we go few of my favorite things on that that's a that was how my wife and I walked in after we got married to the big party oh how nice now I didn't know that so that's a pretty nice coincidence then yeah serendipity well thank you so much we'll get like I said we're going to get a lot of links out of this and if there's anything else you want to add I'll make sure it gets on to the show notes page and we really appreciate your time today and good luck with everything that you're working on thanks very much for having me and anyone who would love to know more about we social lines feel free to retell to me there are not a lot of Velika von Ayns in this role so you know where to find me yeah wonderful appreciate it big thanks Tony thank you okay and we'll see you next time and to the audience like I said please leave us a review or send us some questions and share with a friend if you can and we'd really appreciate it and thanks everybody till next time