 HBCU Digest, and we're back on this particular interview. I can't, I have to have to disclose bias. This is one of five Omega men that I love in this world. Brother who was who supported the Digest from day one and who truly truly is a role model for the HBCU community, Nicholas Perkins, the CEO and president of the Perkins Management Services Incorporated, a proud graduate of Fayetteville State University who is celebrating 15 years in business, doing business with black folks. That's right. Business with black folks and for black folks in a proper way. So my brother, it is always an honor to have you on, man. Thank you, man. I'm just honored for me to be here, brother. 15 years, man. Talk about it, brother. 15 years. You and I got great. Got great coming into the face. I'm telling you, man, 15 years to do that to you. But it's true. Talk about the journey, man. This started from a one-man operation to a multi-million dollar state operation. Just share with people who are looking at this and hoping to follow in your footsteps what that journey has been like. Well, it's been an honor, man. We've been truly blessed to, I have had the opportunity to have the experiences that we've had as a company. It does not seem like it's been 15 years since we began operations. And I have to tell you, I incorporated this company 16 years ago, this November, but we began operations October the 15th, 2015. So on tomorrow, officially will be the 15th anniversary of Perkins Management Services. And I just feel very blessed to have had the opportunity to experience the growth that we have over the years, partner with some of the tremendous clients and have had the opportunity to serve many of our nation's historical Black cause universities, partner with the federal government, service to the Environmental Protection Agency, the United States Department of Transportation, the United States Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Army, the Defense Health Organization. I mean, it's just been such a tremendous ride and to think that this all started 15 years ago in Cumberland County in Fayetteville, North Carolina with one mental health institution where I was the cook, the cashier, the janitor and the food delivery guy, you know? And to see where the company has grown, I can attribute that to nothing but the grace of God to be honest with you. Man, for those of us who are trying to follow in your footsteps and to build a truly healthy and thriving Black owned organization. Yes. You know, you and I and most Black folks are aware of the challenges that Black vendors and Black entrepreneurs face. But how have you been able to successfully navigate those to get in places where you're doing business, not only just in our communities, but as you mentioned with the federal government with state agencies, what do you think has been one of the key ingredients to you being able to transition between vendor opportunities and entrepreneurial opportunities? Well, I've always tried to keep my head on the swivel as my football coach would teach us and always constantly looking for opportunities. And I've never been afraid to go outside of my comfort zone. And, you know, being from a small town in Fayetteville, North Carolina, you know, I was a little nervous in the beginning, you know, to travel out and go to all these different states. And, you know, we really started. I mean, we really, after our first contract, we were really a multi-state operator. I mean, you know, I've gone to Chicago, to, you know, to Kentucky, Tennessee, you know, Florida, you know, and these were the early stages of our business because I wasn't intimidated about, you know, going to find, you know, where the opportunities may be. And so I would always encourage, you know, people to think outside of the box, find out where the opportunities are and go get them because, you know, it's not going to come to you, you know, you got to go and get it, right? And especially in our community, sometimes those opportunities, you know, you know, we aren't necessarily always, you know, presently where we are. We have to identify them and then go wherever they are and have the courage in North to be able to go out and do that. One of the distinguished parts of your career, particularly with HBCUs, is that you've been a multi-million dollar philanthropist at your alma mater and other institutions. You have taught at institutions, you've established professional development and money. And I don't say that in a funny way, but I'm not only in your pockets, but into the institutions on students to get them prepared for the next level of their lives. What has really induced you to say, I want to be multifaceted in the way that HBCUs are preparing these young people? Well, you know, I thought that it was vitally important for me to, as I continued to grow and develop and as an entrepreneur to reach back to younger generations of aspiring entrepreneurs, because I have always felt like entrepreneurship was the way for people of color, especially in the United States. The racial wealth gap has plagued us and continues to plague us far greater than any other race or ethnicity in the United States. And I have always felt like that entrepreneurship was the fastest way for African American people, ultimately to be able to narrow the racial wealth gap and to be able to create generational wealth and transfer that wealth to future generations. And so in order, because in many times, you know, I was almost like a unicorn, you know, so I would show up, you know, and I started this business, I was 25 years old and you know, I'm coming to get the largest contract on campus or the largest contract on the base. And I was very young person, I was very confident, not even some aspects, but at the same time, you know, you know, I was bold enough to do that, but people were not accustomed to seeing the young African American men and women come to do business. And what I wanted to do was to encourage, you know, other young people that, hey, you can go out and do this. So that's why I went into the classroom and I'm going into, I think my either third or fourth year teaching at Howard University, teach entrepreneurship there. And I taught entrepreneurial thinking and creativity and entrepreneurship, you know, for Fayetteville State as well. But I mean, it's just a tremendous pleasure for me really to teach and I probably talk gosh, you know, they give me an auditorium over there, man. My class is always packed, you know, and I had an opportunity to interact with some of the most brilliant minds, you know, and I think that we're going to see some tremendous entrepreneurs to come, you know, in the next decade or so. Because I mean, they're fearless, you know, they're brilliant and they really want to do something about narrowing the racial wealth gap in America. Let's talk about that. Because you not only teach about that, but you're also a radio host. You talked about that wealth gap. You've talked about opportunities for black entrepreneurs at length and unafraid. When you look at the urgency for black folks, particularly in 2020, as we think about the social political climate, how can, is there a way to expedite the way that we think about business and getting people ready to do business, particularly as resources and politics are changing and for as little money as we had in our communities before, it looks like it's going to be even less because of job loss and how banks and industries are shifting to try to deal with this thing. Yeah. Is there a way to stay on track with that? Or is it like, does it feel to you like this is a pause button moment for black folks until the country learns how to manage the virus? Well, now more than ever, is it urgent that the real entrepreneurs stand up and find a way to go out and find the new opportunities because these unfortunate set of circumstances that we are under now have caused a tremendous amount of heartache and pain and devastation in not only African American community, but just the country as a whole. But there has to be a period of rebuilding and sifting through the ashes, we are going to find that there are opportunities. And now more than ever, in my opinion, do we need entrepreneurs to go out and create new jobs? And I believe that those who have the courage enough now to go out and try to establish new businesses and sift through the ashes again and find where the new opportunities are are going to see that there is going to be a tremendous amount of wealth on the other side of this, you know, this unfortunate set of circumstances that the pandemic has brought. But I think we have to have a very optimistic view about the future. And I believe that now more than ever, it's needed. You began to see banks like JP Morgan and others who have stepped up and put forward initiatives that are geared toward narrowing the racial wealth gap. And I believe that African American entrepreneurs should hold their feet to the fire in many ways and make sure that it becomes real. And, you know, not only them, BB&T now truest also has initiatives around minorities and communities and minority business initiatives. And so, you know, you see now more than I have ever really seen a very strong stance taken by the banking industry to do something about wealth inequality in America because, I mean, it is one of our most present and prevailing issues that have adversely affected our community. So, you know, you have to, the pandemic has been devastating, it has had devastating effects on our business, including mine. But, you know, we have had no of the choice been but to push through. And I think that you will see that people who have persisted through this, when they make it out on the other side will have identified opportunities to be able to grow and diversify. And to be honest with you, many of us would not probably have considered the diversification that we have had to have we not been faced with this challenge. And I think this challenge has tested much of our metal and, you know, has forced us to think through things a bit differently. Do you think that the period of engagement with Black America is sustainable? Because as happy as I am to see HBCUs getting a lot of philanthropic opportunities and a lot of Black folks saying, I want to enroll in an HBCU, I want to think about an HBCU athletics, academics all across the board. Black folks are falling in love again with black colleges. At the same time, we remember that the catalyst for this is a brother getting his neck knee down. Sure. Right? And we know the catalyst for this is a global pandemic. So you're talking about dangerous stuff that makes people pay attention to black people. I am worried, I am worried, bro. Like this is, at some point, people will forget about those things. Do you think that that, do you agree with that? Or do you think that this is something that will keep lasting as long as black folks keep saying, no, no, don't forget about us now? Like, you know. Yeah, well, that's a good point. You know, unfortunately, man, you know, it has taken circumstances like this tragedy that happened to George Floyd and the injustice that we see and the tragedy that happened to Breonna Taylor and, you know, the rash of civil unrest, social unrest all across the country pertaining to, you know, racial and wealth inequality. You know, Martin Luther King told us that a riots are the language of the unheard and that's so very true. And it takes sometimes unfortunate circumstances like this for people to really begin to pay attention to the adverse impact that people of color have had to deal with as a result of discrimination. And unfortunately, it can be found in just about every way of American life, unfortunately. And it does appear that the African American community now more than ever is awake. But, you know, we have in some ways gotten a bit detached from our past. And for some strange reason, and I'm not really sure how we could have ever felt as if we have, you know, arrived or we were on this level and equal playing field, you know, with majority communities because we aren't and we have never been. And I think for the first time, our country is having, well, I won't say for the first time, I'll say for the second time, our country is having to deal with the issue of race. And in this, what I call a follow-on civil rights movement is in my opinion, having, forcing the country to have to have a real conversation about race and the adverse impact of discrimination in our country. And so when you see a financial giants coming out and saying, okay, hey, you know, enough is enough. This isn't right. Look at where African American wealth is in the country right now. You know, this isn't good for anybody. But, you know, we from, you know, most oftentimes have been viewed, you know, just as consumers, you know? And, you know, we aren't building any wealth. You know, we are almost like the gas that you put in the car. You know, it can't go without us. Our economy cannot go without African American people. My students did a case study, it was brilliant, on the adverse impact of segregation. And we saw, you know, how we measure the net worth of African Americans and African American businesses during that period versus periods post-integration. We learned that in more recent times, we generate a trillion dollars a year and yet we are still the most discriminated against disenfranchised group and still have a negative, or approaching a negative net worth collectively. And that just doesn't make sense, right? And, you know, so we have to realize that ultimately we can control that. And we are in a country that there is a great deal of opportunity. And I've never seen a massive restructuring of the tax system to benefit poor and middle-class people. So we're not gonna catch up wealth that way, right? In many instances, you know, when you look at our system, I mean, it's set up on inequality and avarice, to be honest with you. So, I mean, we have to look towards things like entrepreneurship to do something about this racial wealth gap in America. And I believe that, you know, it is, you know, we have a global pandemic, right? But from a micro environment, the African American community has another pandemic that is dealing with, and that's wealth inequality. So let's talk about how we manage that, right? Because you and I have talked privately over the years about the frustration to put it nicely. That we work with some black folks who really get it. And they say, we got more to empower black entrepreneurs, black media, black everything. How can we be an HBCU and not do that? And then there are some institutions that do the exact opposite. Almost to the point that sometimes they've tried to sabotage you. Sure. Is that something that you, do you feel as a businessman that we can change, help to change that culture? Or do you just have to hope and pray that people that we do business with particularly African Americans, are just, they're woke enough to understand building an ecosystem of business? You know, it's just something that I've never really quite understood. I'll tell you, again, I say that I was a bit naive whenever I started, I initially thought that once I came out here with 100% minority on food service management company that I was gonna automatically be embraced. And, you know, it was a bit of a shock to me, you know, what I encountered, you know, and the perception in and around what it meant to do business with a minority. And, you know, the perceptions that followed and were associated with doing business with a black-owned company. And most of these, you know, generalizations had come from previous experiences that people may have had with doing business with black-owned companies at some point, you know, during their career. And, you know, and I'm always a student first, so I studied a lot of that and realized that we, that even during those early times, especially in the 70s when you saw minority business programs kicking in and this wave of black entrepreneurship come through, even during those periods, our companies were never really fully capitalized, right? So even the minority-owned businesses during that period never really had all that they needed in order to be able to scale and be able to deliver services by comparison to their white competitors. And so, you know, HBCUs especially always, often always complain about that. I have that same argument, right? That, you know, it's unfair to measure them against their white counterparts when their white counterparts are often funded, you know, at higher levels than they have been, but yet, you know, have performed in many ways much better, doing more with less. And I think we've all mastered that, right? But, you know, my experience ultimately has been that, you know, I have been blessed to have done business with, you know, tremendous amount of clients, both state and private. And the clients that I have had the most success with and the relationships have been the best with have been those that are student-centric, student-focused institutions. And with presidents that, you know, had a very clear expectation of, you know, what they wanted from their vendor partners and control, you know, their business and finance people, you know, because what I've determined is oftentimes that sometimes if the chief financial officer at many institutions can make or break those vendor relationships, you know, and a president that, you know, have a good handle on that, I think, are the institutions that we see that thrive, you know, and, you know, it's a highly political space that I operate in oftentimes doesn't really have much to do with food at all, you know, you know, me starting a brand, you know, from scratch, that's Perkins, you know, and many people have not had an opportunity to see someone build a company from the ground up. And it's never really apples to apples comparison because if you look at my competitors and where they were their 15th year, they weren't, they were not then what they are now, but someone somewhere gave them an opportunity and were patient enough with them to allow them to be able to grow and to scale and to acquire other businesses and grow into the multi-billion, multi-national corporations that they are now, but it's often always easy to say, you know, look at where we are now, but most of the people who were alone during the times for which these companies were growing and scaling have transitioned on to the other side, so they're not here to tell the stories. But, you know, I look around and see, you know, some of the larger companies and some of the strategies that they use to, you know, gain traction in the HBCU world to me is something that I would never do, you know. You know, I consider myself to be a entrepreneur but I, and a business person, but I've always respected, you know, my clients and potential clients enough to present Nicholas Perkins and Perkins Management as an independent firm, and that's the most, the thing that I'm the most proud of is that I've been able to, over the past 15 years, maintain that independence as I'll continue to grow my company. And, you know, we've had some bumps along the road and, you know, we weren't perfect, you know, but we survived, you know, to be able to live and fight and compete another day. And I think, you know, and that's to be said about a number of companies because, you know, we've had to hang in there with our client partners as much as, if not more, than they hung in there with us. You don't want to talk me not to sell out to the white man. No. No. Oh, yeah, I will. Some people don't see it that way. You know, some people don't see that that way, you know, but it's always been something to me to want to be able to own and control my own destiny and be able to have an example that I was able to bring something to the industry and that I was able to maintain my independence. You know, I look at Herman Russell, you know, I look at AG Gaston, I look at, you know, Dr. Bob Brown, I look at Don Peebles, I look at, you know, there are several examples of minority entrepreneurs that have been able to build a large sustainable business enterprises as independent African-Americans. And those have always been my heroes. And I just think that it's something to be said about entrepreneurs who are able to do that. I'll get you out of here on this last question, brother. Your goal is to be the first independently owned billion dollar black owned business. How close do you think these 15 years have brought you to the goal and what is the next milestone on that journey that you're most looking forward to? Well, you know, and let me say this, the first 100% minority owned billion dollar contract food management company. And so what I've learned about that over the past 15 years ultimately is that it will require organic growth strategy as well as mergers and acquisitions in order to be able to get to that point. You know, I wanted to cut my teeth and establish myself in the historically black housing university market and the diversification outside of that has historically been big government. We are also looking to and have been involved in some processes more recently that we are approaching very soon some big announcements about some growth and diversification outside of what people have traditionally known us as. And so I hope to within the next 14 to 15 days be in a position to announce that. So we're excited about that going to our 15th year. And, you know, man, it's just been a roller coaster ride. But I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I'm able to serve my people. I'm able to employ my people. I'm able to teach my people. And I can tell you I'm very happy starting at 25 and turn 40 next month. This 15 years has been a tremendous opportunity for me. And I don't know if I had a chance to tell you that I'm actually writing a book. Yeah, so I'm actually writing a book with Blair Walker. As you know, Blair wrote, why should white guys have all the fun? So we've been working over the past year just kind of chronicling my life. And stories and it's really going to be centered around, you know, my pursuit as an entrepreneur, some really fun, you know, stories as well as, but it's really designed to, you know, push the next generation to go out, step up and build wealth and create jobs. And so we look forward to wrapping that up probably in the next couple of months. And we should have a book coming out in 2021. Breaking news right here, man. That's right. Brother, we going great together. We putting on glad together. We couldn't know how to do it. I am so proud of what you've done. And I am so grateful for the role model that you are not only just for me and my family, but for legions of students all over the country. Man, best of success. And can't wait to have you back on for these big announcements, brother. Thank you, brother. You just continue to do what you're doing and serving as, you know, a media outlet to tell our story the way it needs to be told and we need you and we thank you and bless you and the digest and your family. And you continue to go out and do the great work that you've been doing to represent all of us. Oh, boy, let you go. Plug your website. So people will know. Buy food, plug your website and everybody will know. Oh, yes, absolutely. So PerkinsUSA.com.