 Colonel, how are you? I am well, sir. Yes, we're just saying you're in Texas. Correct. I always think of, do you remember the TV show Dallas? I do. That was a long time ago, as you recall, Chris. Yeah, that was really popular at the time, wasn't it? It certainly was. It was incredibly popular. When you served in the military, was that in Texas or was that all over the U.S.? Well, I spent several years in Texas. About half of my career was spent in Texas. We were four years at Brook Army Medical Center, at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio, and then eight years at Fort Hood in Texas in the clean area, which is about midway between Dallas and San Antonio. What made you want to join the military or the medical profession? Well, the medical profession, that's an interesting story. I'll start with that. I was interested in science growing up. I was a very good student, and people would tell me going through into junior high, late junior high, and into high school, you should be a doctor. You should be a doctor, and I'm thinking, I want to be a doctor. They work too hard. I was thinking about something along the lines of physical therapy or something along that lines, physical therapy, something, physiology, something along that lines. And then as I got towards the end of high school, late junior year into my senior year, I'm thinking, well, it's a much easier step to go from physical therapy to medicine rather than vice versa. So I thought, hmm, I think there's some merit to that. And I decided to go pre-med into college. And in terms of the Army in applying for scholarships, I received an Army ROTC scholarship, and my college career started off at the University of Notre Dame. And so I was on a four-year Army ROTC scholarship at the University of Notre Dame. So that was my first exposure. And I remember you talking with one of your guests, and you spend a lot of time talking about your airborne jumps and airborne school, and reminded me of going to airborne school after my freshman year of college. Oh, so you've jumped too? Well, I made five jumps. So I qualified. I've got to get this right on the camera. I qualified. I did get my airborne wings, but I never made any combat jumps. Yeah, I like talking about my parachute course because quite a lot of time in my military career was very boring. But when it was good, it was really good. And the parachute course was to get paid to do something that was so much fun. It's just, you can't really put it into words. So that's kind of why I like talking about it. Yeah. It's something that was a lot of fun. And I attended almost on a whim. I had some other classmates. They were going to attend airborne school and then go on to Ranger School. And they asked me, Skip, do you want to go to airborne school? I thought about it for probably 20 seconds. No more than 30 seconds, certainly. That sounds like that might be fun. Yeah, sure. I called up my mom and dad and said, Mom, Dadio, I think I'm going to go to airborne school and made preparations to go with them now to Fort Benning, Georgia to attend airborne school. Not giving any thought to, you know, this could be a little dangerous. You know, you might get injured. You could, you know, it's potentially lethal, you know, a bad jump. You know that. I know that. But it seemed like a fun thing to do as an 18 year old kid. I hadn't had my 19th birthday yet. And so I went, I did have one jump. That was a little bit perilous. I didn't pull my risers correctly towards the end to do my PLF, my parachute landing fall. And so my jump, I landed. Boom. And then on my butt, bam. And then my head, bam. And landed with enough force that it broke the rings on my Kevlar. Just broke them. And I'm laying there stunned. Laying on the ground thinking, oh, I gotta get up. I gotta get up. I gotta get up. And yet I'm stunned there thinking, so this is running through my get up skit. Get up. Gotta get up. But at the same time, I was so stunned, I couldn't get up. And thoughts running through my mind, if I don't get up, the jump master is going to disqualify me. And I'm going to get recycled. Laying there on my back, seeing stars, thinking, get up. Get up. Gather your shoots so you can run off the field. I managed to do so. And then I had to go get my Kevlar replaced. So that was the only perilous jump that I had. I did have a buddy, a good buddy of mine, Dave Ristet. And he, he and I kind of followed or he almost followed my career in terms of my duty stations and positions that I had been in. And he served under me with the 21st Combat Support Hospital in Iraq. And then later, Dave would go on to command the 21st. But he was getting ready to, he had just stepped into position as the 101st airborne surgeon. And Dave wasn't airborne qualified. And he knew he didn't need to be airborne qualified, but he decided, well, since I'm with this group, I, I should be. Oh, wasn't there 80 for 101st? I'm sorry, beg your pardon. It was the 82nd at Fort Bragg. And so he decides he's going to attend airborne school. And on his second jump, he has a bad landing fractures, his lower leg, both the tibia and the fibula, both bones. So I get his frantic call from his, his wife. Oh, Dave broke his leg coming through town on our way to Fort Bennett. He's going to have emergency surgery. No, Dave was almost 50 years old at that point. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh. As you know, it's a, it's a young man's game. You know, it's not for 50 year olds to be jumping out of planes. Did you, do you just jump from the airplane? Is it the C-130? It was a C-130. So you, so you're attached to with that. And I remember that first jump. So it's with the static line, correct? And so we're standing there in line and I'm cool and everybody's cool. We're sitting there. And for some reason, you know how they get you there early, early, early in the morning. And, you know, before sunrise and you're waiting to load up. And this day, the winds or something were off. And so the plane is just circling and circling and circling before things are finally at lands and we get loaded up. And by then it's, it's mid-morning and we've been sitting in the sun for hours. We load up and everybody's relaxed and so forth. And we get in, we're all in the plane, you know, waiting. And of course, you know, makes its circle to the right place on the field. The door is open. You hear that Russian wind. All right. The jump master says, stand up, hook up. And you're starting to shuffle towards the door. You know, everybody's checks everybody, you know, and you start going to the door. Well, I'm in the number man two position. I'm cool as you come up to this point. And as soon as I step to turn into the door and take my position, my legs turn like gel. I don't know what that exit looked like. Yeah, you think about that now. Make the exit, you know, assume the position. But count and then look up. Boom. There's that beautiful parachute. It's like, oh, I think about that every time. How cool is cucumber until I step into that door and then my, my legs are like spaghetti. And what skip what decides what unit you go to. Do you go to, do you serve with a medical unit or do you? Exactly. Exactly. So my route to come on act to do is a little bit circuitous. So I started off ROTC, but I ended up leaving the university of Notre Dame. So terminated my scholarship. So I did not go back to school till three years later at four Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And so I wasn't on scholarship at that time until I started medical school. And that was on a army scholarship. What's called an HPSP scholarship help profession. The scholarship program, the HPSP. And so with four years of scholarship, I owe the army four years. And then after medical school, I did not get an army internship for a variety of reasons. So I did a civilian internship with the intention of coming back on active duty. It just so happened. My training director, my program director was retired Brigadier General, Dr. Andre Ogneby, most amazing clinical teacher, medical educator I've ever seen, bedside clinician, just incredible. I wanted to train under him. So he arranged a deferment to come on active duty so I could finish my training with him. And then I came on active duty. So yes, the army then decides where they're going to place you and you're assigned to medical units. Now, in some cases, those medical units might be directly associated with field units, like the 21st Combat Support Hospital or the 82nd Airborne Division in certain positions there. But I was assigned initially to Reynolds Army Community Hospital in Latin, Oklahoma. Did you specialize in any role in the medical world? Yes, I am an internal medicine specialist. So a specialist for adults. Okay. And Skip, what's the difference or what did you find the differences were being in peacetime and then being in a war zone? A few differences that immediately come to mind, Chris, are the pace in peacetime, the pace is very, very busy day in and day out. So my first duty station at Fort Sill was one of those where I did both ambulatory medicine, outpatient medicine and inpatient medicine and did both concurrently. And so very, very busy, incredibly busy taking care of patients in both facets and taking care of active duty, taking care of retirees and taking care of family members of retirees in some cases. So taking care of full spectrum of adults. And you think about young soldiers that you're taking care of, they might be as young as 17-year-olds if they got a deferment to get into the Army. And taking care of the elderly individuals that could be into their 80s and 90s that I'm taking care of. So as an internal medicine specialist, that's our scope of the training to take care of the very young adult, somebody with common cold or an ambulatory in pneumonia to the individual that's hooked up on life support equipment in the ICU or end of life issues. That's the scope that we treat. So very, very busy on an ongoing basis, basically, unless you're on leave, it's busy during peacetime. And you always have the availability of specialists that you can contact, you can quickly get information from for consultation. Now in wartime, that you will have burst where you're real busy and then lulls where you're sitting around. And so you're kind of waiting, but you're always on edge in a combat zone. There's always that heightened sense that something can happen at any time. So even though you have those lulls, there's always this sense that something could happen. And so there's this heightened sense of awareness. And then when things do happen, you know, they're happening very rapidly. And it's not unusual then to have a mass casualty where you have your medical system, if you will, is overwhelmed or pushed to the brink of its capabilities. And so you're having to do things in rapid fire situations in terms of triage and treatment. In some cases, then evacuation very rapidly or within 24 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, that you're having then to evacuate patients back farther in theater or back even to Europe, Conex, continental US. So those are some of the differences. But in terms of the medical care delivered, world-class in both situations, world-class. What's your connection with wrestling? Because I know that features heavily in your life. My connection with wrestling. Oh, thank you for asking, Chris. Because you are an ultra marathoner and you've done all these things. So you're quite the accomplished athlete. I've done a few things. Yeah, just a few, right, Chris? Just a few. My connection with wrestling started in eighth grade. I was typically the smallest kid in my class. Bullied as a child and miserable at any sport I tried. I didn't know how to throw, kick, catch, a ball. I didn't know how to run really. I wasn't strong. I wasn't fast. I wasn't coordinated. I didn't have an older brother to show me those things. My father was ill after coming back from the Korean War. So he really wasn't a part of our lives. He would come to visit from time to time, but really spent his years after the war in and out of Veterans Administration Hospital being treated until he died when I was 13. Now, so I was just miserable at any sport. I don't know if you're familiar with tetherball, Chris? You'll have to remind us. Tetherball, you have a rope tied to a pole. So you have a pole, 10, I don't know, maybe 10 foot tall. And the rope is tied to a ball, maybe this big. It's almost like a soccer ball with a ring attached to it, all inclusive with the ball. And then the rope is tied to it. And then it attaches to the top of the pole. And the purpose is you have two players. And the purpose is you're hitting the ball back and forth. And you're trying to wrap the ball, the rope around the ring. Well, one is trying to wrap it one way. The other is trying to get it wrapped the other way. I failed at tetherball. That's what I tell people. I remember our fourth grade teacher taking us out to test us on chin-ups for the boys and bent-arm hang for time for the girls. I couldn't do one chin-up. It was just horrible. But in eighth grade, I just started wrestling. First time I ever went out for a sport and after a practice, I thought, hmm, I think I might be good at this. After a couple of practices. I think I could maybe be really good at this. And I made the varsity team, the only eighth grader to be on the varsity team. Didn't win a match that year, but I could beat a lot of kids in that wrestling room. The next year, I was really the best kid in the wrestling room, but I get so worked up the night before a match. I didn't get a week of sleep the night before, and I just be exhausted going into that wrestling match mentally, emotionally, and physically, and didn't win another match. So it wasn't until the summer after that I won my first freestyle wrestling tournament and then continued on to have a lot of wrestling success, finished my career as a two-time district champion, state runner-up, won multiple state freestyle tournaments, one of the rest Olympic styles placed in two national freestyle wrestling tournaments and ended up my career as a all honorable match in all of America. Wow, congratulations. And then at the age of 56, I got the competition bunk again. So I asked my 18-year-old son to train with me, and he agreed to do so. In fact, his words were, okay, Dad, but you're going to have to do everything I say. So my son Joey trained with me. He was my workout partner, my trainer, and my coach. And we went to Tucson, Arizona, and we won a national wrestling championship. Incredible. So, and then the next year, I was the national runner-up. That's it. I've had a love affair with wrestling. I have four-year-old brothers. They all wrestled. My father-in-law was a wrestler. My brother-in-law was a wrestler. Two of my best buddies from high school were wrestlers, and we still keep in close contact. My kids call me a wrestling groupie, because I'm the kind of guy that I befriended national champions, world champions, Olympic champions. You know, get photos with them. I have wrestling cards that I get signed. I have my wrestling books that I get signed. Oh, it's great to have a passion in life. Absolutely. What's your understanding, or what do you make of the Foxcatcher story? Oh, the Foxcatcher story with Dave Schultz, Tragic. Tragic, this man, Dave Schultz, was an icon in our sport. It still is. And remember it was such affection and such honor. Dave was called by many as you listen to those who talk about Dave, who competed with Dave, who trained with Dave, who knew Dave as a savant. As somebody who basically could see a move or somebody could show him a move, and Dave could do that move. He had this uncanny ability to quickly learn and master things. And he was tough. They said Dave was the nicest guy off the map. But he was tough. Kenny Monday, who competed against Dave and actually beat him out of that Olympic slot. And then Kenny went on to be an Olympic gold and then silver medalist. You know, just talked about how tough Dave was. And what a nice guy, Dave. And there's this photo actually of when Kenny won. That was the Seoul Olympics. That would have been 88, I believe. Dave Schultz had gone and trained with Kenny. And it shows Dave carrying Kenny on his shoulders as he paraded him around the wrestling mat after Kenny won that gold medal in Seoul. But Dave, you know, with DuPont, DuPont was just a strange man by all accounts, everybody. Mark Schultz talks about it. And others talk about that DuPont had this inflated sense of who he was and wanted to be around these greats. And this was a weird man. And just went off the rails. You know, shot Dave unfortunately snuffed his life out. And we lost this great man from our sport. Yes, it's horrifying to watch. They made a film about it, didn't they? A movie. But recently the actual sort of documentaries been out. Yeah, they made a film and they also Mark Schultz wrote a book about it. I probably have my copy. Oh, wow. So Mark, Mark wrote that book. Outlines the story, a lot of interviews, a lot of things, a lot of details. What's the relevance of the name Foxcatcher? I'm not quite sure how they got that name or if that was just the name of the property that DuPont owned there. Or if that was the name of the wrestling program. I don't remember the significance of that, Chris. Yeah, I was just trying to think just one second. I'm trying to think of the mixed martial art girl, the champion for many years. But her background was wrestling. Mixed martial arts girl, you say? Yeah, what's the big tournament called? The UFC, isn't it? Right, right, right, right. I'm just... Ronda Rousey? Yeah, Ronda, of course it was. Having a great moment. Yeah, I don't think it was wrestling. I thought Ronda had a little bit different. I think hers was judo. Ah! I think Ronda was judo. Yes. Right. Yeah, she had this move where she'd get her opponent in an arm lock and then it was game over every single time. Yeah, so Ronda was judo. Yeah, she was a judo player. Yeah, judo, okay. Yeah, before she went into the UFC. Do you think every young person should get involved in some form of martial art? That's a good question, Chris. I know for me it was a lifesaver in terms of the confidence it gave me, it really changed my whole identity because as I said, I was a very small child. I was bullied and it changed things because after wrestling, I was never bullied anymore. I wasn't any bigger, still me. You know, you guys didn't mess with me any longer and my brothers and I kind of joke around, where are the bullies now? Bring them on. So I think there's some merit to that because it gives you confidence. And that confidence, what it does, you carry yourself differently. You think of yourself differently. Bullies, what I tell people is bullies have this homing device. It's like they can sense blood in the water and they don't pick out somebody who carries themselves with confidence. They don't pick out somebody who is going to fight back. They pick out somebody they know who is vulnerable and isn't going to fight back. That's who bullies choose to bully. And so I think when you are involved in something like that, it gives you an air of confidence. It gives you a sense of confidence. It gives you self-control. And guess what? I think then the bullies see something differently in you and you're not an easy target. They are looking for easy targets. So I think for children, especially in this day and age, when people bully one another and unfortunately they do it without having to be face-to-face when we were growing up. If you wanted to bully someone, guess what? You had to do it in person. Now they can do it through this medium, unfortunately. And all too often it's done that way. But it gives people that, I think that added boost and added confidence. So I think there is some merit to that, Chris. Whether you actually ever have to use it, even in a fight, since then. But if I had to get in one, I think I could handle myself because if I get that opponent down on the ground and that's what wrestlers want to do, we want to take the fight to the ground. Guess what? You're going to be in trouble. And it's crazy, Skip, because when our generation grew up it was all about the physical fight. Right. But now we're coming to realise that men face a much tougher battle on a much wider scale and it's going to affect... Whereas most people rarely get in a fight, maybe a few when you're a kid. This is something that affects most adults, or very many. And of course it's mental health. Yes, indeed. And this is your specialist field? Right. Or certainly helping men overcome depression? Am I right there? Correct. That's correct, Chris. And how did it come about? Well this is born out of my own experience with depression. My last year in the Army I suffered major depression. And as I began to recover I was called to help other men who were struggling with depression. Do you know what brought on your depression? Yes, in retrospect and of course at the time I would have thought it was the perfect storm of the events that were going on right there and certainly it was those but it was also the accumulated trauma that had gone on through my life that I had not taken time to process. So it was all that accumulated trauma heaped on now with that perfect storm of those events that took place those last 18 months that I was in the Army that just broke me. So when you think about accumulated trauma traumatic childhood my father came back a broken man from the Korean War. My auntie Mary his older sister my older cousins even my mother said the man that went to war is not the man that came home. He suffered mental illness I'm convinced was bipolar disorder PTSD and he was an alcoholic and when he drank he was violent so my sister Roma my oldest sister she tells us that when my dad would come home we would run and hide because we didn't know which dad was coming home the kind gentle fun loving dad or the violent angry dad. I don't have those memories but my sister Roma does. So that was the childhood and as I said my dad would just come home to visit for short periods was really not a part of my life for most of my childhood and then thank goodness for my mom most amazing one of the most amazing women I know and her strength encouraged to raise eight children go back to school get her degree start teaching and then my little grandma my Auelita as we call in Spanish meaning the little grandma who came to live with us at the age of 63 to help raise eight children to allow my mother to go back to school and lived with us till she died at the age of 93 so for 30 years grandma lived with us but she raised really for the most part raised us with mom going back to school after mom was remarried but amazing amazing women stepped in and then my daddy who my mother remarried when I was 12 and a half and again those things changed my life if you will and so but they accumulated trauma dad and that traumatic childhood the uncertainty the chaos just a lot of chaos there deaths my dad's death later my daddy's death my Auelita's death I had an uncle who committed suicide an uncle who was shot and killed a cousin who was shot and killed you don't process those things but you know all of that stacks up and then the things you deal with in medicine patients dying accidents occurring in the army where you're dealing with deaths where you're treating critically ill soldiers mangled bodies and you don't process that you just go on picking up and taking care of patients because you're so busy and suicides charred and burned bodies in some cases all that trauma that accumulates that you don't process and I could go on and on so the thing as a physician the things as a person the things as a army physician and so these things just stack upon one another then my last several months in the army preparing to leave the army I had three surgeries in seven months all fraught with complications unfortunately that just disrupted my normal routine diet exercise sleep insomnia started to be the first thing that affected me and that just quickly got worse and then some things were going on in my department that I took responsibility for that were going to affect graduate medical education and patient care that again I couldn't control but I took it personally and then began to have these negative thoughts you've let your department down you've let the army down you've let your family down you're a fake you don't deserve to be a colonel who's going to want to hire you you're a failure and then these negative thoughts just start playing over and over and over in your mind in medical terms you call these negative ruminations like a ruminator like a cow that brings up its cudge choose it and swallows it again day and night and then lost my confidence became indecisive my cognition was off could remember what I what I read by minutes before I just read what was that I thought I had early onset dimension that I actually requested to be tested could recall names of medications like I know it was there it was like running through the files in my brain but couldn't find that file it was and things just got worse and then my mood just began to go down into the toilet and then it finally came to a head on April 17, 2013 when you were in this downward cycle did you realize what was happening to you or did it all just seem almost like a normal evolution of your life no I knew I was struggling Chris but I didn't I didn't realize that it was depression I knew I felt horrible I knew I was struggling the insomnia had become horrendous where sometimes I was sleeping an hour or two a night other nights I was just waking up six, eight ten times a night I was up and down up and down or the nights I could fall asleep I'd sleep a few hours then bing I'd be wide awake and couldn't get back to sleep so I knew something was wrong but I didn't know what was wrong I knew I felt horrible I attributed it to the stress I attributed it to the insomnia I attributed it to getting out of the army and a lot of uncertainty in my life at that time the disruption because of the surgeries etc but I couldn't put the pieces together I couldn't step back and see oh, this is what's going on and I didn't have the insight to step back and up and say oh, maybe I should go talk to somebody maybe I should go get help because of that tough guy mentality I'm a tough guy I'm a wrestler I'm a soldier I'm a colonel I've been in combat zones I'm a caregiver all these things that define me as a tough guy and what do tough guys do in wrestling we have this term gutted out where no matter how hard it is you're an ultramarathoner you've done these hard physical things no matter how hard your lungs are burning how much your muscles ache how much your brain is telling you stop, just stop you just push through it you just push through it you just push through it well, that can get you through a lot of things that mentality but it's this double edged sword too how it can affect you and worse I got I tried and the harder I tried the worse I got and I couldn't step back to see what was going on and as I said it finally came to a head on April 17, 2014 when I went to my office I always got there early before anybody else typically before anybody else on the whole floor I go to my office unlocked it, turned on the lights stepped inside and just felt like everything just came crashing down I turned around locked the door turned off the lights drew the blinds turned off the phones and then I crawled up under my desk in a fetal position and for four hours I wrestled with those questions Skip, what are you doing? Skip, how did you get here? What happened? I'm thinking to myself, you're this tough guy Skip you're a national wrestling champion you're a criminal you've been in war zones you've done all these different things how did you get here? and it took four hours of reliving these things and seeing you know there's trauma and things going on and to finally put all the pieces together to understand oh insomnia blue mood impaired cognition loss of confidence, indecision impaired libido impaired with a sex drive you know on and on I could go with symptoms there and finally being able to put it together that after four hours it's oh Skip, you're depressed go get help Did you get help then? I did I crawled out from under that desk I had a flicker of hope and I initially went down to our primary care position my primary care positions clinic asked us when was the first appointment I could get with the clinical psychologist there they said next week I made that appointment got back to my office and I said I don't want to wait that long so I called the chief behavioral health and explained the situation and said can you get me an appointment and later that afternoon I was seeing a clinical psychologist and she verified the diagnosis of major depression Wow and what helped you to get out of that Skip I started seeing a clinical psychologist a therapist so every week I was seeing a therapist so I was getting therapy he recommended I see my primary care position just to have a thorough evaluation to make sure there weren't any secondary causes certain medical diseases, hypothyroidism low thyroid other medical conditions can contribute to depression so I saw her she ruled out all those causes said no Dr. Mondragon I don't see any of this I recommend we start you on a medication what do you think I said I think that would be a good idea so I started an antidepressant and then later I was seeing a psychiatrist also so it was a combination of that and then I tell people my F3 my family, my friends and my faith that all three of those were essential in helping me recover and in what kind of context do people come to you now for help do you have a practice or no I'm not in a practice per se I do write out of my experience I did write a book but let me just step back a minute because the first time I shared about my experience it was before I left Eisenhower Medical Center that was my last duty station where all of this cure occurred before we retired out of the Army and what led up to that was about six weeks into my recovery and my brother Chris, my youngest brother or younger brothers had called me very excited and he said scale I just attended a Bible study with Franklin Graham this is son of Billy Graham evangelist Billy Graham who was there in Rawley, North Carolina he led a Bible study about suffering the suffering of Christ and the gist of it was suffered so brutally around the cross for us why should we think we're immune from suffering and Chris called and shared that and it convicted and I thought I'm suffering and it brought to mind a verse out of Philippians Philippians 310 oh that I might know him referring to Christ, Paul is right and the fellowship of his sufferings the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings I knew that verse I prayed that verse hundreds of times but when I was suffering my prayers were Lord please please deliver me from my darkness and over two days time my prayer shifted from Lord please please deliver me from my darkness to Lord what would you have me learn and how might I use this to help others and that was an epiphany if you will and a pivotal switch because then it helped me take meaning with this suffering and I knew I was going to have to share my message I knew I must share my message so I began to take notes of what I had learned what I was learning with the intent that I was going to share it not knowing when how that was going to occur but I knew I was going to and so before I left the army I asked our commander of the hospital if I could share my message he gave me an opportunity what was called an officer's professional development day in the hospital auditorium where all the staff hospital staff could come not just the physicians but all the hospital staff there was an offering in the morning and there was another time in the afternoon an hour that I had to share my story lessons learned but the intent of dealing attacking the stigma related to mental illness encouraging others who were struggling to go and get help and to let them know excellent help was available to them so that's when I first shared and afterwards people that came up and said thank you for sharing I've suffered with this same thing I know somebody who has struggled with this thank you for having the courage to share and it was out of that that I wrote wrestling depression is not for wimps and then I spoken in various venues sharing this story and then talking to men to help them deal with this issue to encourage them you know we can get through this we've been acculturated in a way to be tough guys but there's a real tough guy is one who can admit I need help I can't go it alone we know that is for military guys you can't go it alone you need your battle buddy to help people and yet how often do we want to try as men go it alone and that's what I was trying to do and even now some of my buddy saying we didn't realize how much skip is something they had no idea because I was suffering in silence that tough guy trying to do it on my own yes it's impossible to know isn't it how much someone can be suffering because we our natural default position is to just say oh everything's alright exactly how you doing oh I'm fine doing well and so who's this to ask no how are you really doing and skip what steps can people take to get themselves into a better mind state well I think the steps one things I talk about is and I devoted a whole chapter in the book to is prevention is better than rehab and certainly as athletes we understand that it's a lot better to prevent a chronic injury than it is to treat it yeah so prevention is better than rehab and so monitoring your status knowing where your reserves how they're doing where they're at how are you mentally how are you emotionally how are you doing socially how are you doing physically how are you doing on these different fronts and if you're finding those areas where your energies in any of these areas are ebbing what do you need to do to shore them up because we are a united being and if one area is hurting the other areas in that being in our being is going to hurt and so monitoring yourself prevention is better than rehab that's one and the other is having those battle buddies maintaining those healthy relationships individuals that you can talk to openly and be realistic to those people that you can be vulnerable with and realize everybody is struggling in some way nobody's life is perfect and I think as men as they open up and begin to share they realize there's so many money others out there that are struggling because the way we've been raised don't be a cry baby be a man real men don't cry that's not true we've been raised to believe that and then you see the what's up on the media the tough guy the macho man up there who hardly sheds a tear and he's often deals with these situations and oftentimes by himself no that's not reality the real tough guy has these two dual sides he can be tough decisive the provider, protector individual and he can also be that tender gentle kind individual shed tears and so the two duality that duality of a real tough guy or a real man if you will because if we're only have the one side that hard, tough decisive provider, protector type of individual we are not being a true tough guy and we're missing so much who we really are and missing out on so much of life and so I think it behooves us to help men to understand it so I think that's the other is we've got to attack those lies and men have to understand that's not really true and as you begin to open up with a trusted friend or to feel understand they'll understand yeah it's okay it's okay to say I'm heard and do you think it helps people to set some goals that are more appropriate to themselves as opposed to chasing the sort of perceived societal goals career and you know big car or whatever the case may be lots of great great question and I think there's a couple ways of looking at that I think we all need a purpose we have to pursue something that's significant and fulfills us so that's one way of looking at that what's that purpose you're seeking to fulfill and I think each of us God has given us a purpose to fulfill and so what is that purpose that we are seeking to fulfill that I think is overarching if you will but in terms of goals now you can have goals like an objective goal to well I want to make this much money or want to do this but there's a different way of looking at that to I want to give my best effort I want to become more involved in my family's life I want to spend more time with my children I want to be a kinder gentler husband who can listen to my wife more attentively I want to be more present when I'm with people I love so I think that's an excellent question because the goal to be more so who do I want to become rather than what do I want to do because I think as we become more of the person we want to be then we're going to see those other things will follow accordingly but we'll be so much more fulfilled and we'll be able to contribute so much more and not be so frustrated in the pursuit of things and I think that's where many times as men we miss it because we compare ourselves with these other guys ooh look at the car he's driving ooh look at the house they live in look where they're taking their family for vacation there's a variety of things you know what I'm talking about Chris and then listening to this know what we're talking about rather than wow look at that what a loving husband he is what a thoughtful husband he is look what an amazing father he is how attentive he is to his children what a good friend he is what a faithful friend he is and how if when we can take our worth and identity more so in these things rather than ooh you know I reached this financial goal those are all fine but if those can become secondary to becoming the people we want to be becoming the friends husbands fathers friends sons that we want to be I think if we put emphasis on those things it will go a long way I think that's great advice and Skip where can we're going to put a link for your book below so that people can grab themselves a copy how can they get hold of you if they're seeking your services yes and you speak as well obviously yes indeed yes indeed Chris I recently gave that TEDx talk men are an ancient species and I would encourage others to please go listen to that because men you'll hear more of my story and I think you'll be encouraged by that certainly men need to hear this story right now at skip at wrestlingisnotforwimps.com soon that's going to switch over to skip at transformedtoughguys.com and the next day or two that will be the best place to reach me skip at transformedtoughguys.com yeah we'll put links below and skip that just leaves me to say thank you ever so much sir it's really great to meet you I'm glad that our paths have crossed and I'm I'm happy that yours is going in the right direction for you thank you Chris it's been my delight it's good to meet you sir and thank you for all that you're doing on behalf of our brothers and sisters in the military yes we can do our best can't we yes sir yes sir indeed stay on the line so I can thank you properly and to all our friends at home I hope you got as much from that as I did much love to you all if you can subscribe that would be wonderful and we'll see you next time