 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Admiral Ramdas and we are going to discuss first the India-Pakistan standoff which has been going on for quite some time. In the context that North Korea and United States can discuss nuclear issues, why can't India and Pakistan? Admiral Ramdas, you have written about it recently that there is a reason why India and Pakistan should talk about both the geostrategic issues, the fact that there are shall we say tensions of different kinds between the two countries but particularly because both are nuclear power states. How should we look at this nuclear standoff in the midst of this kind of tensions? You know this reminds me of the year 2000 when there was this great standoff between India and Pakistan and even to go to Lahore from Delhi one had to go fly to Dubai and then come the backdoor entry and finally go to Pakistan and it was very bad. The situation was grim. We thought we would have a breakout war between India and Pakistan and all that sort of stuff and as it happened we had the Agra Summit soon thereafter as you know. And it was a very good turn and nobody had expected anything of that kind but it all happened. I think some lessons we did learn from history at least I thought I did and I feel that now it's yet again another golden opportunity for both our countries to reopen the talk after all there is no alternative except for a dialogue especially we are very very powerfully armed weapons both the sides and any it's not just going to necessarily war alone nuclear weapons by themselves are hazardous and you can have some wrong design something going wrong somewhere and when it explodes even accidentally or unwittingly they won't be anybody to say what happened and it could be mistaken even as a first strike by the day. Absolutely and particularly when there is no understanding between the two so what better than talking to each other a dialogue and we already have some you know confidence building measures but unfortunately everything has been put on the back burner. We don't even want to say something officially so I feel that it is so much more important now than ever before and luckily we have got away with I think two decades of possessing these weapons between both India and Pakistan in fact in May it was exactly twenty years for both the countries and I think and both countries spending going fast forward as it were in you know adding to their inventory I think it's a very dangerous sign and any amount of talk or any other means is vital for the survival of this region to begin with and which in turn I'm sure now that you know we're linked up with the United States the largest nuclear weapon power on the one side Pakistan linked up with China which is between the two of them again a very hugely armed weapon state I mean the combination is deadly and you can't restrain it. You were also talking about the nuclear weapons by themselves becoming being so dangerous and also the fact that as we all now know the US and Soviet Union came to accidental possibilities of nuclear weapons being dropped sometimes mistakenly being thought of as an attack sometimes accidents happening where all the sort of safeguards went off and only by almost accident that the nuclear weapons did not explode so all this history is known and this with two powers who probably had more maturity in terms of the nuclear technology than we apparently seem to have but also the fact that we are so near each other that there is really no response time involved. It has become more or less a status symbol that I have an ICBM or you have a ballistic missile which will be continental or intercontinental the thing to remember in this whole system is that we have to whether we like it or not respect the fact that these are highly highly dangerous weapons. You may think that it has a deterrent value even now that is but you don't need so many in their hundreds and thousands and hundreds of thousands which with both Americans and the Russians I mean they and now of course Russians really realize then of course the Soviet Union and United States the division in the war cold war time so today the risks are if anything much much more and the how many times can you blow yourselves out of shape I don't know but you don't need many that is the lesson now. And Ramdas you have written that you are once a rotary of nuclear weapons when you are in service what made you change your mind? Well I think two events in my life made me do that. The first one was as perhaps many people may or may not know in 1971 war I was in the Eastern theater commanding the naval frigate called Bias and halfway through all these proceedings you know inputs one of the inputs was the American 7th Fleet which had been equipped aircraft carriers and so on. The USS Enterprise and its team are entering Malacca Straits and are their way or on their way to the bay to come and intervene and interfere with our operations at the head of the bay which is really East Pakistan. Of course at that time I was told by the fleet commander and that was a plan they said and I was the junior most at the time not that it mattered so I turned and I went towards they said they told me you go and stop those fellows from coming this is like you know in go beg the bar like one small frigate so the whole 7th fleet out yeah USS Enterprise those days was the biggest aircraft carrier in the world and two sets of squadrons and this and that so they steamed in and I went completely silent I mean in more ways than one but as we went south I could monitor and all I said yeah yeah this is not a very happy note because I said I got 270 what a number of men and people we went in that direction and we were listening on listening watch purely and Americans love to chatter they love to natter and chatter so the aeroplanes flying at a height talking to each other not us that you know as all clear you know naturally our long way away you can hear I knew exactly we were guessing at that time but we knew roughly where they could be and where they would be still going at that time of course luckily the the remaining whatever forces that we had and even we didn't expect such a rapid thing and again of course made of mine had descended and there got sorted out and General Niazi and so on so Dhaka was captured oh yes we managed to get most of the information and they were nattering away so I said we were still going getting closer I would estimate we were about 150 to 200 miles away nautical miles away approximately now don't ask me how we managed to hear that that range and that in those days that is 1971 almost 40 years ago and so as you were any luckily as I said the land battle was sorted out and by time I was I turned back and they said it's all over you can come back now later if you read the book both written by zoom volt and Admiral Nanda who's no more he was asked this question what would you have done if the US fleet had actually managed to come in and if your ship so he was gracious enough to say look one of our ships went to make contact with your force and then nothing to fight what is that to fight with the American Navy he would have invited your captain of the enterprise to come and have a drink with him you know the did you feel that confronted the yeah you see enterprise you know one need for nuclear one thing was clear that you know here was a nuclear arsenal with aeroplanes and delivery systems you know this is the knowledge we had at the time and whether or not they will use it not I knew that they may not use it but it was still a threat I mean I have to I'm at the receiving end with nothing to say this so and as we all know historically in 74 we had our own peaceful nuclear explosion and that is history that is point number one so it made me little I can't be such a stupid man to save we should say no to this at that time although in my mind I felt differently but well you know the second one point is that it is many people don't understand or don't or pretend that they don't understand that it is important that we have a system which is capable of doing something or the other especially with submarine I'm now really in my mind and a submarine has is a very versatile weapon system and we were doing some work and I was being helpful but then we had said that we have demonstrated the capability in needless to say we were a couple of screw driver turns from putting things together in a hurry if required that's how we left it and you will notice that we never had a single test after our first one until 98 although I think once or twice the scientific community wanted to do some more test oh every time a new prime minister came they would go and apply for the well you know test that was the apparently that is to be always the case and this was something at that time it was not for without warning the system or something but okay you acquiesced I said I acquiesced also and I felt maybe I'm still you know don't have enough and quite honestly at that time even all the chiefs didn't know that this is going on between push push between whatever it happened and then 98 we all know what happened and I said now this is offside although the manifesto of the BJP at that time was wanting this weapon and they said that no question of anything over to cover to do anything and within I forget the dates now what night or so in the same month toward the end of May I think Pakistan did the same thing and nobody expected that and the government political people masters scientists everybody thought hey but hey was ho and then you know and of course I was out by then and then I said now this is really pointless too because frankly economically it is said I it's very costly and it's a bit of a disaster politically it is counterproductive because you you may show off but after a while that status symbol goes and militarily it is absolutely ineffective because you kill civilians with that weapon and nuclear arms and I said morally and ethically also which is totally wrong incorrect that's where you decided to come out and I said that you know this is all has to go and that made me then completely convinced that this weapon is useless you spend so much money on this and you are not going to get anything out of it you just put it on a shelf and then just to look after it you require so many accessories and addendums and at the end of 25 30 years is a no no it has to be upgraded everybody is and it's all these things are revenue expenses bulk itself of course has never been disclosed in India whether it is this government that government any other government nobody has said how much money this all costs because we never have any defense white paper to tell us strategic weapons what are they for the audience in fact I was part of the peace meeting or the meeting in which we talked against nuclear weapons where Admiral Ram Dass came first declare his opposition to nuclear weapons that is that was absolutely correct that was the first first publicly I publicly yeah and that was just five years since I retire yes even then I was disappointed the initiative who truly you know India for so many years had always in public and otherwise in United Nations and elsewhere we demanded the disarmament of all nuclear weapons and have always been and Rajiv Gandhi was the only head of state who actually put forth in the United Nations a plan 1988 to say that this is what it is even in the 60s all the wargaming that had been done had shown that a limited exchange is not going to happen it is going to end up in total exchange they also this decided that tactical nuclear weapons would lead to nuclear exchange if not work and that's why really the salt treaty and the ABM treaty came out but why is it that there is at least not even the talk of any restraint in terms of nuclear weapons between India and Pakistan and do you think that is because there is now on both sides and now even on India side the argument that if you wave the big stick enough that the other side will back down in spite of the fact that it has not happened ever in fact the his I'm glad you mentioned this because this precisely what Trump thought that he might do with North Korea and North Korea being North Korea as I said they have come over many years of all this technology which has been transferred either legally legally whichever way you look at it anyway all technology if this kind should be considered legal yeah absolutely I think that's a good point but then nowadays who worries about legality or illegality even the United Nations is treated its can't respect so when you ask that question that you know isn't it so at that time and what is it now today this scene is very very similar but then you have Trump going as I said to shake hands with Mr. Kim in Singapore I mean the government or the country with the largest number of you know have nuclear weapons the biggest toughest guy but he's willing to come all the way to Singapore to shake hands with this gentleman who ordered you know this slaughter of his own commander-in-chief but neither here nor there but why because the implications of and deployment and usage of weapons today and doctrines which supposed to provide these inbuilt safety factor and so on whether you're one ten or three thousand it's insane for anybody to even think that these can be used that is one level but then you create a kind of a peace atmosphere in that region which is in Korea very close to Japan very close to China so it interested both China and United States to make peace in that region let's be clear what's happening yeah once North Korea has the ability to reach United States with ICBM and it has hydrogen bomb so you can actually make the weapons smaller nobody's gonna take a risk of whether the really that can do it or not and China is interested because if North Korea is attacked with nuclear weapons well the part of North China of course China also goes so it is in the interest of both to really absolutely if it is of interest for them so should it be interest for us in Pakistan I mean it's obvious it is just falls on your lap and you do nothing about it and just jingoism and machoism whether it is here or across the border line whatever you call it is is total insanity because half a weapon whether it's tactical weapon or strategic weapon small weapon this capability that capability means nothing it doesn't make any sense and it's high time we grabbed this opportunity I feel it's an opportunity and somebody should take the initiative and obviously it has to be us with the bigger power therefore and and and we still claim we are a democracy so let's show them how democracy works like US had the chivalry or gallantry or whatever you may say works good sense that they came all the way no less than Trump himself to Singapore probably the smallest but most safe part in the world so he came to meet we can have a meeting if you like in Singapore or in Sri Lanka if you don't want in Lahore or in Delhi or Islamabad or wherever they have in Singapore so what we're going to talk so therefore I'm saying talk you must there is no alternative that's the fundamental message that is and I and that can only happen not yet but when artificial intelligence comes in that will also perhaps happen I don't know but now I hope human intelligence should come to push India to take the initiative and I feel it's a very good option to do so thank you very much Abdul Ramdas to be with us this is all the time we have today for this click do keep watching this click visit our YouTube channel and also a webpage