 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am very happy to have my old friend mr. Vincent Ward back on the podcast Vincent welcome back on buddy Hey, Bart glad to be here Yes Man you you know I say There's sometimes where people were really you know friends on the podcast and we you know talk on the internet But you and I actually are Good friends and you're one of the people I always enjoy seeing at drum shows. I come in and when I see you It's just kind of that like like I enjoy seeing everyone But you and I have known each other for years now at this point and you've been a big help to the podcast So thank you in general. I appreciate your support over the years with the podcast, too Yeah, it's nice. I saw you what about a week ago a week and a half ago at the covington show That was really fun and shields classic. Yeah, Poe Poe Shies Rogers thing Which was awesome, which there's an episode coming out soon about that with Anthony, so Yeah, Anthony's yeah, Anthony's really great. I love that show and it's it's a big a Big draw to go into these shows is being able to see people year after year And it's really awesome to see what you've built the podcast into because The first episode I did was five and then I did one around a hundred maybe and now you're coming up on 200, right? Yeah, you know, I think I think actually if I'm not mistaken with my timing I think you right now on this episode. I think your episode 200 So you did it buddy, you're there because there's been some like I release an old one when I'm catching up after the Madness of like the Neil Peart episode and stuff. So how does that count? But your episode 200? I will give you that Okay, that's nice. Nice title. Congratulations. Yeah, so All right, but this this is a lot of info today and and we'll kind of jump in and then I have to do a little Patreon. Thank you, but I want to say up front what we're doing and what we're talking about today This is Vincent's idea. He came to me with this and I think it's awesome So we're pretty much going to be talking about the process of buying plane and collecting vintage zilgen symbols, which zilgen is quite possibly one of the most famous names in the drum industry, maybe you know Ludwig is up there, too But it's it's like a household name or at least people know that like, you know they might not be able to pronounce it if they're not a drummer, but It it's on its four hundredth year this year. So that's actually pretty, you know, timely that we're doing this It's something that I know you have a lot of experience with as far as collecting and so do a lot of people And there's a whole bunch of different things to cover with it. Yeah. I mean zilgen is definitely At a certain point. They were the only brand for symbols. I mean, there were other brands will talk about those but you know 50s 60s You know zilgen was the brand it was I don't think they had that motto the only serious choice at that point But that that motto actually made a lot of sense because if you were serious, you didn't play, you know Like Dixie or crud or you know, you played zilgen's and if you didn't have zilgen's you saved and you got zilgen's and There's another episode with Paul Francis that talks more about the history This is gonna be more about my experience with zilgen. What I've learned the history is is Amazing, you know having hundreds of years of history. I think maybe Zilgen's just an awesome company. I've it was the first symbols that that I had They've been really really good with advertising marketing promoting And They're as far as I know, they're still the biggest even with so much more competition They're still the biggest symbol company there. They haven't fallen off You know, they're doing they have all kinds of modern artists modern stuff new models We're gonna be talking primarily from the inception around the early 1900s with K. Zilgen's into avi avita zilgen's in Late 20s kind of up through the 90s and then after that That's more of the modern era. Yeah. Yeah, so it kind of falls in the collecting of like Vintage because it really it's weird but like 90s. I guess I think 25 years and older in the world of like cars is considered vintage So I think that applies to this too so for for drums people usually consider pre-1980 to be vintage but Zilgen made a lot of cool stuff in the 80s and in the 90s too Yeah, there's there's a lot of subtleties to the stuff the earlier stuff. Obviously, there wasn't being as mass produced There's more variations and things to Things to find there For for me, I have a strong emphasis on the sound So you can talk all day about this and that and who played it and what it is and if it's rare or not But to me the ultimate test of any symbol, but you know when I'm Looking into a zilgen. I want to hear that symbol That's what really Because that's a very personal experience too. So sure you could describe a symbol with 15 adjectives and get an idea You could write the weight of a symbol. This is a 1200 gram 16 inch symbol but until you hit that symbol It's all subjective. So there's gonna be a lot of emphasis in this episode about What was happening at zilgen during the 20th century? You know, there's still a ton of those symbols I mean, they made tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of symbols during the 20th century and a lot of them are still around so yeah, just because something's famous and Saw it after you may play it and go. Oh, I don't like that. Like you don't have to like it, you know Which is a watch out, but okay real quick a huge I want to give a thank you So I have a tier on patreon $15 a month where You sign up and you get a shout out on an episode and you get your name at the end of it on all my videos with a little title card So before we get into it Vincent, I want to give a thank you to look over here at my notes to Gabriel Martinez who runs GMD symbols, which is GM designs is the company but GMD symbols calm He said let me read a little blurb said it's not your typical company He says he makes everything that the other symbol makers are not and that's what he's all about He says he makes more strange oddball stuff stuff that has been Kind of revised from before and improvised or maybe never been made before He says he's come out with the first B20 finger symbol B20 triangle a multi-bell symbol and most recently the largest Bell ever on a symbol which is 10 inches. It's a pretty big bell. I tell you what and he has the standard symbols He that he does make are still nothing that are being offered by other companies So the hammering is different profiles are different. Laving is different very cool stuff, so you can check him out online at GMD symbols calm and see everything he's got I looked at it. It'll take you to his reverb page and It really is pretty cool stuff like very cool So be sure to check that out And thank you to Gabriel Martinez for signing up if you guys want to join the patreon and get a shout out at that upper tier I go to patreon.com slash drum history podcast and it's really cool because this is a symbol episode and It's cool to have him on this as a symbol episode. So Vincent let's jump in here, buddy and let's start off by talking about Maybe before we get into the collecting the guide Let's hear about your personal history and background with zilgen symbols and what started this whole thing for you okay, so I Got into vintage drums about 13 years ago And I've always been fascinated by the minutiae of different things. So I Was really fascinated by the variety of zilgen symbols that I was seeing old ones new ones So the the journey with with zilgen Started when I was younger and then I played some other brands and when I came back to zilgen I was pretty much exclusively looking for the vintage stuff. So I have a a Small business that does drum restoration specifically with pedals hardware and parts But as far as studying zilgen symbols trying to learn more about them. That's been Something I've been pretty active with for at least the last Four years with really the goal to find specific sounds. So I think all drummers have sounds in their head of how they want their symbols to sound and During this journey that sound has I Found it it's it took it took a lot of trying different symbols and you know, your ear changes and evolves over time but Especially starting during COVID because everyone was cooped up and bored I started really shopping heavy for symbols and trying to look for things I would get things and I Still have most of it a lot of it isn't a lot of it is in storage, but I have a large amount of symbols that I need to decide To let go of you know duplicates and things like that and just basically keep the best ones the ones that I really Want to keep for life and let go of the rest of them I love a being symbols. So take you looking for a 20 inch symbol from the 50s You put two right next to each other and that's the best way that your ear and mind can process Which one you actually like better just like when you're at an optometrist, you know, is this better or is this better? You can easily you can easily tell when you're a being symbols, you know Yeah, yeah, I mean did you and we'll get into this But like I think something that is pretty common is that you you a B to identical Quote-unquote identical symbols, they don't sound the same, especially if they're vintage and they've they've aged Differently, do you find that that's pretty common where you may you may have one that you love and you buy another one on reverb? And they don't sound exactly alike. Oh, yeah, for sure. And the older you get the more that is is the case Just because you have more of an element of human Manufacturing things were not mass produced So, you know, most people like a 20-inch ride. I like the bigger symbols. So 24s 26s and 28s if you can find them I Don't own a 30. They're they're just really hard to buy Everyone everyone everyone wants them. I know a guy who has two that just sit on his wall He hasn't mounted on the wall Most of the 30s are from the 60s and later to find a pre 60s 30 inch is pretty rare and pretty expensive So that's that's one that I'm still looking for. I have about 90% of what I'm looking for In my drum room That's I feel very I feel very fortunate to that to to be in that position for sure Yeah, yeah, and I mean I We live in different you're in Maryland now and I'm in Cincinnati So we've like never been to each other's houses, but I will say from talking I mean, you've got like multiple camco sets. You've got all kind You've got a ton of pedals you have a huge collection So I think people can like Understand listening to this that like and when we go to drum shows and we've shared booths and things You've like taken me under your wing and like I have very much caught on that you really know your stuff And you have you know for a young guy, you've you've really been experienced and known a lot of this stuff So so people can I hope trust what you're saying, but well, thank you that being said There's a big community about around Zildjans and vintage symbols in general Why don't we talk about the people the predecessors a little bit? Okay, so Most people are familiar with this, but there's a lot of really good resources online if you type in Zildjans stamps or Zildjans timeline Most people have the same two questions when they have an old Zildjans Let's say you find a 20 inch Zildjans at a show you bring it home your first questions You're gonna ask are how old is it and what is it worth? The second question is much harder to answer than the first There are really awesome guides. So I'm gonna mention four people here and There are no specific order, but they kind of are because When you're looking into something like this and it's not it's really complicated You start by building on the knowledge that other people have already you don't start from scratch That would that would be really difficult So bill Hartrick was I believe there had to have been other people that did this before But bill Hartrick's the first person that I know of who is referenced by Steve black and Steve blacks resource You can put a link in the description. That's the one people are familiar with. There's another resource by Rob Scott I use both of them and it's kind of like to double check each other to so when you're Kind of looking for knowledge that's hard to obtain. It's nice to have multiple sources. So Steve black He's in New Zealand. I think and Rob Scott. I'm not sure he's located They both have have really awesome online resources that are still up as far as I know both of those gentlemen are still alive as well So they have you could email them if you have questions and they've just really you don't have to own own a symbol to learn about it so you can Document you could just watch eBay and reverb and document all these symbols not ever having to Own or buy the symbol and I think that's what a lot of these guys have done or they'll It's a community effort. It's not one person is the expert I'm definitely not that expert and I do want to say that before we get into the timeline that this is information that I've Gathered from other sources and I'm not here with any bombshell saying anything really a lot different than what they are The thing that I've done differently is that I have a bunch of these symbols and I've I kind of Comfortable at this point speculating a little bit more than has been speculated previously Filling in the gaps. There is the fourth person He's the most important one because I knew him personally and he passed last year His name is Mike Layton and I'm gonna bring him up Probably several times because he's the first guy I walked up to at these shows and asked him questions and you know When you meet someone who has the same special interest like that and you start talking shop It is the most special Magical thing because they're excited because that someone else cares about what they care about so I'll mention more about Mike later and How he in it influenced my own personal journey but I think the first thing we should do is go through the timeline by stamp and we'll do a zilgin and K zilgin and This is what other people have extrapolated based on all the information that they've gathered and I Have a little bit more in there talking basically about the history of zilgin as these timelines were were Taking place blue goose classic percussion has provided vintage drum restoration and sales online for over five years They're pleased to announce that they will be opening Atlanta drum shop a full-service drum destination in Atlanta this summer 2023 featuring new and used gear by all your favorite brands Atlanta drum shop will be a true drummer support center and cool hang And if you love Neil Peart and Rush come play not just take pictures of their Neil Peart R30 commemorative kit an exact replica of Neil's kit from the R30 tour by DW and check out their expansive collection of DW Neil Peart replica snare drums and other member of Elia as huge rush fans their goals to share these drums with the world Atlanta drum shop is opening to the public this summer 2023 join their mailing list to get updates at Atlanta drum shop calm or find them on social media at Atlanta drum shop And if you love vintage drums check out blue goose calm That's bl00 goose calm and find them on eBay at blue goose classic percussion bl00 goose classic percussion thanks to blue goose slash Atlanta drum shop for sponsoring this episode we'll start with a zilgin and The first a zilgin's that I'm aware of are from 1929 That's when the company was established and they had a good base to build on because k-zilgin already existed so k-zilgin is existing in turkey simultaneously to a vetus a zilgin and as far as the details of the history and who did what and who was whose brother and who got mad at who Consult the previous zilgin episode, which is great because boy is there a lot of that it in this so yeah Starting in 1929 in I believe Norwell, Massachusetts somewhere in in New England a Vetus zilgin start being made and these first ones that are made from 1929 to 39 are referred to as first stamps If you really want to know When was my zilgin made what is the stamp? You can find that information and sometimes there is some ambiguity My friend Kelly brought a symbol to the Covington show and he said it's from the 50s and I looked at it. I said no, it's got to be from the 70s and When you looked at the stamp it was not really clear So the stamps are a guideline you also want to look at the evidence in front of you the actual symbol how it was made and Don't it's good to not be definitive or arrogant about it. I don't I don't ever say anything definitively because It's just not that's just not realistic So at the beginning here these first stamps, I think it'd be pretty hard to say Oh, they stopped doing first stamps in 37 or 41 or whatever, but You can see you know from previous episodes that were coming up to a very pivotal time in all United States Manufacturing which is 1942 when you were no longer allowed to use metal. So zilgin actually Weathered that storm really well and the reason and One of the things I think that is Very unique about zilgin is still true to this day is their their vault I have a piece of Of literature that says that's probably from the 60s That says basically that once symbols are done being manufactured they can sit in the vault for up to 15 years So that creates a huge window The starting in 1939 Estimated to 1942 when they were It's pretty unlikely that they were able to get any bronze bra be 20 bronze is 80% copper 20 10 it's pretty unlikely they were able to get any bronze at all From 1942 to 1946 Yeah, because of the war obviously Yeah, all that all that was needed for the war effort and um, it wasn't an optional thing where you couldn't you know No one was allowed to and and all the companies had to scramble that the history there is is really fascinating tons of episodes are going to reference that and and this one is too because Second stamps are very very simple your average person Kind of myself included is not going to be able to look at a first stamp and a second stamp and tell you Oh, that's second. That's a first. They're pretty they're pretty similar. Vincent. Can I jump in here and just say that like So when you're saying stamp Sometimes I feel like maybe people who are listening to this who maybe don't know Like you're not referring to where you look at as a zilgen today and it's like the black logo that's like It's like printed on it. It's like the on top. These are Pressed into the metal. That's what we're referring to as a stamp where it's It's you know, actually stamped Not engraved, you know the word It's pressed in it's a big it's a big uh hydraulic press probably and the reason the stamp changes is because You could put a different little Thing in there and that's that's when the stamps change is when but they didn't do it like all right It's 1939 time to change that second stamp. They had they were just Yeah, producing items. So at some point the first stamp this first stamp wore out and they brought in the second stamp and that's how you know, uh 80 plus years later were able to Take that information, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt because We know that some symbols sat in the vault for for 15 years. So 1942 when uh the l-37 metal rationing came in They were probable they probably had a lot of symbols in their vault and even though they weren't allowed to produce anymore Let's say that they had had a really good end of the thirties and they had Thousands of symbols in their vault. They wouldn't have been expected to send those off to be melted down for tanks and bullets and things They got they got to sell those. So zilgin zilgin was probably a lot more Situated to to navigate this period because no one knew how long the war was going to last Everyone just knew that this was the priority above all Yeah, manufacturing of non-war effort items. Yeah, so second stamp is 1939 to 1942 We can we can put it go ahead and put a four-year gap in there because Metal rationing wasn't lifted until the war was over. It was 1946 probably the middle of 1946 Someone can correct me on that and and give me the exact month but that's when They said here you go now you have access to copper and tin because they zilgin is making their own alloy They're getting shipments of copper tin. They're saying there's trace elements of silver in there, but They're getting raw metal and they're melting it down in their little crucibles and they're making their blanks and they're making their symbols There's lots of cool videos on how a symbol is made and At this point They've been kind of sitting sitting on their hands for four years They're really ready to make some symbols and that's 1946 to 1953 Is what is referred to as the transitional stamp trans stamp And we'll see in a moment that's a bit of a misnomer because these are not rare symbols. They made Tens of thousands you got to think they're all ready to go At this point the war is over And it's time for them Their vault is probably empty at this point. Let's say at the beginning of the war They had thousands of symbols at the end of the war. They were probably pretty low so What their priority was during this this uh seven-year period was absolutely To make symbols and to make really good symbols too So trans transitional stamps or trans stamps are The most highly regarded Avetis symbols and with good reason they're thin The profiles are nice. They're um They just sound Amazing hand hammering They hammered it before they lathe it and they hammered them a lot of times after they lathe that you can tell the difference pretty easily When there's both post-laving Hammering, um, it just looks a lot different and you see that a lot on these symbols Do you think that constant was constituted like I feel like the generation and the time of the player then? I mean, we're talking 1946 to 53. That's a pretty drum heavy kind of music I mean, that's gene krupa and those guys where they they there's a lot of Focus on getting the ideas of you know, what's papa joe jones want seems like they're creating some cool stuff just for that Reason, you know, oh, oh, yeah, and there's lots of pictures too of the artist visiting the vault and Um, even though zilgen had essentially a monopoly on symbol production definitely within the united states at this point They didn't rest on their laurels They were trying to make the best product they possibly could you have to think also this company Even though zilgen has a 400 year history the history of The a zilgen company it starts in 1929 as far as i'm aware I would be I would be pretty surprised if I saw one that was earlier than that because they didn't have a factory so that's good to know yeah, so um There there is a you know history there, but trans stamps What the key points is there's a lot of them and they sound really good At this point a company that's only been around for 25 years or so has a lot to prove And I think that there was the the type of Objective in the factory was certainly To make the best-selling symbols whoever was doing quality control at this point Definitely didn't let a lot of stuff out that wasn't good So even though the consistency wasn't there where you're getting You know in later decades All symbols start to sound alike. You know you spit out 10 20 inch symbols. They all sound like during the transitional stamp era That's not true at all. I mean you could put 10 up and they all sound different. They all might sound good But good is subjective Yeah, and symbols change and they age too. So Transitional stamp is a time period where they're making excellent symbols. They're making a lot of symbols and they're filling their vault back up In fact, the stamp changes in 1953 to what is referred to as block stamp. I call block stamp I use a little bit of my own Nomenclature here because it just makes more sense to me people call them different things. They're called large stamps hollow blocks Very easy to tell with this stamp If you know what you're looking for and they probably just switched to this stamp because the other because the trans stamp ran out Um, it ran out of juice. It was just it had probably been pressed, you know thousands and thousands of times And there's a bit of a flaw that makes it very easy to identify trans stamps in that The pressure is higher on the edges. So the z and the o and co Is much more indented Sure That makes it very easy to identify trans stamps and That's why you can google that term now zilgin trans stamp is going to give you a result of a lot of these symbols Because there are a lot of them and they're super easy to identify um Yeah Now is that really the main reason like you've said a few times now The reason they change these stamps is not because of like it's the end of a generation or we're moving on to the next generation it's like The the the stamp the press wears out we need a new one Let's design a new one. Okay. Maybe we add the dots back to usa or something like that Yeah, just like just like badges. They would have used that as an opportunity to improve Um, so the one that was going to follow the trans stamp The well one thing the press is never going to wear out the same press pressed every The same press probably presses the stamps all the way up until they start doing with lasers Yeah, because that machine does not wear out But the the actual dye that you put in there that that is stamping the the metal stamp in there Definitely changes and um, I hope that with this episode That other people step forward and say well I actually know a lot more about this and you can do another episode just on the stamps because We have more considerations to talk about the stamps are the stamps are a guideline so within the trans stamps you have type one type two and type three and Boy do you have to be pretty deep in the rabbit hole to be able to tell the difference I I still consult the guide even owning, you know A lot of these symbols and even I can't tell the difference on site between a trans stamp type one two and three I know some people can but it's actually not super important, especially if you're if you're emphasizing the sound so, um For whatever reason the block stamps only lasted about two years 53 to 55 um I would guess this information was largely gathered By talking to people who are original owners So if someone says hey, here's my Ludwig kit that I bought with all new zildjans in 1954 and it's got all block stamps That's a pretty good piece of information. And then the guy comes forward and says hey Well, mine's from 1956 and now it doesn't have the block stamp um Again this imperfect science because sometimes the symbols are sitting for 15 years But some of them are also getting made and probably sent right out too depending on Supply and demand, you know, that makes sense and and again I'll just jump in with things so people kind of know if they're watching or not watching And just listening the block really refers to like like it is like as if you're doing like I don't want to say bubble letters But it's like it's as if there's there's space in but like z i l d j i a n Has space in between the lines of each letter. Hopefully that explains it. That's what it is. That's what you're looking for Yeah, I would be interested to know why they discontinued the use of this because based on the trans stamp We we know that a stamp can last, you know, eight To 10 years, but for some reason this one this one only lasted a little longer And who knows that information is lost a history of somebody comes forward and they know that I would be so thrilled to to learn more about these Specific transitions, but block stamps are also great, but they're different the bells are higher profile The hammering is different. So during this whole process everything is changing a lot with the manufacturing block stamps Uh, I bet because i'm so obsessed with the sounds I bet you could put a 22 block and a 22 trans next to each other and I would be able to easily tell the difference that's something changed in the manufacturing around the mid fifties and um You gotta think at this point the the wounds of of the war are starting to heal They are able to get back into the groove and really start manufacturing symbols drum drum set Playing is is growing and in in 56 You start seeing some what I call large stamps or large stamp type one This is going to get a little confusing. I don't want to get terribly hung up on it, but um This is the first time they used a large stamp. This stamp is much bigger than other stamps um Hollow block is also or block stamp is also a quite large stamp compared to other ones But so large stamp just existed for a couple of years. This might have been like a backup die that they had where um Maybe somebody dropped the block stamp and it fell under a table And they said okay bust out the backup stamp and now we're getting large stamps in the in in the late fifties and um, you know like 56 57 But at some point they get their new stamp in and this is the small stamp and this one Existed all throughout the late fifties so 57 to 60 Uh, there's two different types and they're easy to tell the difference because one Is it could have even been a setting or a way that you Stamped the symbols because this was somebody's job was stamping this the symbols and they probably just set their and stamp symbols all day, but um When you look at the at the the stamp guide You could usually tell pretty pretty easily The between the a and b And it looks like just so people know this the large stamp they have there's a you know Tape measure a ruler next to it looks like that was about two inches Top to bottom and then the small stamp seems to be Like less than an inch It depends on how on how you're measuring it because there's such good resources online. I don't In my head does not exist the ability to know All those different things I find it really interesting but I can Identify them enough so that when I'm walking around to show I pick it up. Oh, this is a small stamp. I'm not thinking Yeah, because when you're shopping for symbols in person It's really easy You just hold the symbol up and you go You do that one hit and then you do the the edge Maybe hit the bell but Your ears are what's being trained not your mind and it's the type the type of thing where like the less you think about it the better Result you're probably going to get because it's not about oh trans stamps are amazing But block stamps, they're not as good and small stamps. They're not good at all. It's really not like that It's totally subjective and different people were making these symbols It wasn't joe, you know, joe zilgen sitting there making every symbol There were guys who were great at making symbols and guys who probably were not that good people who were learning And people who got better Zilgen always had great quality control. So they're never going to send out It was would have been pretty rare especially Around this time period for them to be sending out anything that wasn't good But at this point as the company is evolving and growing They're getting better just like any other company their their their goal is to maximize profit But it's also to make a good product symbols break if you make a symbol That doesn't break as often that people are happy with then Once you send that symbol out to the distributors it's not like a A nightmare is going to come back to haunt you where it's like well, hey, I got the symbol But it's got a manufacturing defect zilgen always had amazing quality control And I would think that they probably still do So now we're into 1960 and there's another change So the 60 stamp looks very similar the way to tell is it has three dots The small stamp doesn't have three dots and in that little in the arabic script the 60s one does So most people on a basic level when they pick up a symbol They can think it either has the dots or it doesn't and there's there's some ambiguity to that But generally speaking if you pick up a symbol, it's got a small looking stamp And it's got the three dots in it. You probably have a 60 symbol the lathe thing gets a little wider Maybe they're using a different tool. Maybe they're using a different technique But they're definitely trying to make a more consistent symbol at this point They don't want all of their symbols to sound different even though that's really cool Now they're now they're in a period where they want that consistency because if you're out on tour And you break your 20 inch symbol and you love that 20 inch symbol your heart broken and you go to the store and you hit another one It sounds Pretty close. That's kind of what What they're looking for as a company is that type of consistency where people can really rely on zilgens and know Hey, I'm getting something that is A quality product that is going to last and the consistency is there. It's what I expect to hear when I hit a symbol Um, so I have the 60 stamp error going from 60 to 68 I can personally tell from looking at them that they were doing a lot of experimenting during this time period I've seen 60 symbols that are made just like 50 symbols Um, I'm not exactly sure when they stamp the symbols I would think as soon as they pass quality control they stamped them because um We'll get into this a little bit more Later, but they have zilgen seconds that were never stamped. So if your symbol is made you've hammered it you've lathe it It's finished and it doesn't sound good They're not going to stamp it But they're interesting But they're also not going to melt it down those symbols became what are known as zilgen seconds They either sold them to manis in new york and mani stamped them with mani stamp And almost always they're cosmetic. So it's not like oh, it sounds Really bad It's a cosmetic default that says, uh, you know, this is a fine sounding symbol But it's not worthy of the zilgen stamp so It's possible I guess that they didn't stamp them until much later that they went into the vault and they did sit there And then later they stamped them. Um, that's kind of hard to determine But I can tell from looking at a 60s symbol if it was made kind of in the early middle or late 60s That's interesting. I I mean, that's Uh, I never would have thought I thought it would have been a production line of like boom boom Laving, you know hammering late, whatever it is rolling hammering Laving, uh, whatever you do in those steps I'm clearly showing that I don't know the full process of how they're made but then Stamping and then you're done and then you go from the vault to selling But I guess it makes sense where if the stamp is on it. It's been through quality control Then you can put it out because yeah, I guess then it would go to the second line Like you said Manny's or zilco or whatever it is and then That's I've never thought of that. That's very interesting Yeah, I think quality control has always been a big part of zilgen Uh, I'm not gonna remember this guy's name. His first name is leon I can't remember his last name But this is the guy who was doing quality control in the 80s and the 90s and Boy did he get good at his job because his job was taking a rack of 20s and just hitting them Oh sounds great, you know hit another one sounds great. He's another one. Uh, well, this doesn't sound quite right put this over into a different pile and Everyone knows that when the Beatles were on Sullivan that Everything changed. So now all of now everyone wants symbols. Well, what does ringo play ringo plays zilgen? Well, I won zilgen's so now all of their hard work and brainstorming and Effort to make their production as good as possible They were again And you'll see a pattern zilgen's a very smart company the people who are running it and making decisions all the way down to the people who are operating the machines It's it's an extremely efficient process. I don't know of This is, you know My opinion, but I don't know of Any symbol any zilgen symbols where you're gonna pick them up and say oh, that's horrible You know that it just didn't happen. I think you're getting more and more modern the 60s are still, you know, not as modern as 2023 where People I've heard people say with drum sets nowadays. You're not gonna get a bad one Like it might be different, but you're not getting one where it's falling apart similar to like cars You're gonna get a pretty good car no matter what you buy, but back in those days. I guess it was getting to more of the consistent Uh repeatable patterns and processes where you're still Going to get pretty good stuff, but yeah, I don't think you're going to pick one up and just go Terrible and I but I do remember with hearing Uh and everyone has heard this at some point in their, you know, drum history knowledge of When the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan, it was, you know, 90 000 orders were placed for zilgen symbols or something like that so A lot of pressure to keep up with it, but you don't want quality to fall Because then you're in trouble Well, also when you look at these zilgen videos how a symbol was made and they've been making I have a vhs. I don't I have no way to play it But I would love to get a vhs player one day and play this because it's from the 90s And it's the same thing the zilgen secret how zilgens are made And it didn't change much. It's they're not sitting there. Okay. How can we make a symbol totally different? They're they're they're wanting to make them consistent and these machines are not Something that you want to be messing around with. I mean, these are dangerous machines You do not want to, you know Step up and lay the symbol if you don't know what you're doing because it's gonna It's a rotary tool and it's going to pull the thing out of your hand And you're going to get hurt or you're going to hurt somebody else So again, you know, you've got this concept of the vault which still exists You know, you see these cool videos with all these stacks and stacks of symbols all these different designations Back then there's a lot less designations, but um Their vault ebbed and flowed maybe in in the early 60 and in 1963 You know by the middle of that year. I bet their vault was pretty empty Because when you when you have 90,000 orders, you fill all your orders and then you say, okay Well, let's produce some more at this point. There's no way that symbols are sitting in the vault for 15 years aging I mean that just sounds Yep, totally not correct. I mean when they were when they were done They passed the quality control they went into their crates. They went to the dealers and the dealers were Anxiously waiting their arrival because you have these kids I love the episode where rob cook talks about when he was waiting for his You know for one of his orders to come and he called the shop like every day and he went there like every day Hey, is my order ready yet? Hey is my order ready yet? You know When that zilgin crete When that shipment showed up you were making a lot of people really happy and everybody was making money um So the 60s were a really awesome era these symbols sound different They just sound different than the ones made in the 50s after 63. They don't have the virtue of sitting there Oh, this one's okay, but it's not great. Let me go back. Let me send it back to hammering That didn't happen. You don't see post-lating hammering on 60 symbols It was either it either passed or it failed if it failed It was a mayonnaise and it got and it got sent off. They would not stamp them So you see zilgin's all the time with no stamp you look and look you can look for three days and think Oh, maybe it's really faint or maybe whatever You'll never find a stamp, but you can tell it's zilgin. It was a pass fail type of situation here in quality control because They had if it really was 90,000 orders sitting there in the books You know, they had a lot of pressure to fill these orders I just got asked then with the ones that aren't labeled where they were mayonnaise And they don't let's say it doesn't have a stamp on it at all How would you know that it would be zilgin? Would it just be your keen eye of looking at so many symbols and being able to tell the alloy and all that stuff Yeah, you look at the lathe thing. You look at the hammering. You look at the profile and Uh, also just the color of the symbol. So a b8 symbol is a different color than a b20 symbol Um, I mean you have to guess a little bit, but you can be pretty sure because of how consistent 60 symbols look um That's a concept the idea of seconds and many symbols those don't exist really before the 60s because Okay, the everything's changed in the factory at that point. Everything's different and I'm speculating kind of a lot on this, but I've also spent a long time thinking about it and I'm just using my own um Logical extrapolation skills to know what was occurring in the world at these at at these points, you know Everything everything did change once ringo was on ed Sullivan everything changed for popular music, you know, and um So the six throughout the 60s, you know, they're making these symbols and they get very consistent and very good And then in the late 60s I think their 60s stamp probably ran out again or somebody kicked it under a table or Because they bring back the large stamp. Remember the large stamp from 56 and 57 They're backup stamp and again, I'm speculating here Yeah, you see that for a little while in the late 60s And when you see the large stamp everyone's like, oh, they're 50s. They're 60s I think they're both because I you can tell from the stamps just the first piece of information after that you're looking at um The qualities of the symbol So if you see a symbol that looks everything looks like it's from the 50s and it has a large stamp It probably is from the 50s. You see one that looks more like 60s It's probably from the 60s. You you're you're it's not it's not it's not perfect information. You are guessing But those those large stamp type twos from the late 60s They sound great because at some point they they finished that last 90 thousand order and they were like We are caught up. Let's start filling the vault up again And those symbols sound great to me. They sound better than 60 stamps, but that's my personal opinion Um, so zilchins survived all that period. They survived the war They survived the 50s where they're where they're learning Kind of how to make really great symbols. They survived the 60s where they're 90 000 orders backlogged And now they're into the 70s and you get a brand new stamp the 70 stamp. It's pretty easy to tell It's got it's everything the lines are thinner. It does not have the three dots So if you look at a symbol and the salt the stamp looks smallish, but it doesn't have a three dots It's probably either 50 small stamp or 70s thin stamp Whatever you want to call it the the the exact words are not Important and all of this all of the wording has kind of already been set in stone by these guys who did all the research 20 plus years ago And you're referring just so people know you're referring to not the dots that are in the usa And the made in usa at the bottom, but you're referring to note having no three dots up in the ottoman engraving up top which says company avidis zilgin In their different ottoman turkish language as i'm seeing here on black net dot nz. So That's that's also what's cool about this zilgin journey is there is So much information. There's no way one person could could really know all of it That's why it's awesome to have these reference materials and um, yeah, so Yeah, we we went through the period where there's a lot changing now. We're in the 70s So from 70 to 77 you've got your 70s stamp now. There was ink stamps on these symbols There's ink stamps going all the way back to first stamps, you know at some point they had little ink stamps and and You know ink blotters that they would put the stamps on but a lot of them didn't get that You know if you if you the way symbols were ordered at the time If you if you wanted an extra thin 16 inch symbol that would have been something that was maybe they didn't have so many of and When they were done, they would have stamped it just to say hey look we made this symbol and it's an extra thin um So that mostly it's the weight designation You also see ones that say like um other things on them You know they had a little set of ink stamps at zilgin during this whole period that we've been describing but um In the 70s, especially in the late 70s. Uh, so like ones that are in the mid 70s That's when you start seeing that really iconic block lettering that says medium ride Earth ride, you know something changed during that time period where they said okay now The models that we offer are going to be different and they're going to be designated So when you go to the store and you're shopping and you see three 20 inch zilgin say okay, here's a medium There's another medium all this one's a rock ride and it's heavier. It's pingier Well, I like that rock one now That becomes part of part of the The process is is putting these these symbol designations that that starts taking that starts taking place more so in the mid 70s I would guess by 78 that's when you get the first zilgin ink stamp and they call it hollow ink Because it's not filled in so it's the zilgin With a thin outline those are great symbols. I mean, they're really wonderful symbols that exists from 78 to 82 in 82 at some point the zilgin becomes solid and pretty much all of these symbols I would think it was part of their process To designate that this is a medium ride. This is a medium thin medium thin crash medium crash And these change throughout that time period. There's a lot of good literature. There's stuff on drum archive But during during this period You start to see the ink designations from 82 to 92 The process is pretty is pretty streamlined Well, I mean, I would say at 82 to 92 if I'm not mistaken 81 bob zilgin leaves 83 He's allowed to take on the american market or something like that in in that range is when sabian Comes into the into the world. So they got that's like, you know, lighten a fire a little bit there There's some not that my know wasn't competition not that feisty wasn't competition With all of their, you know, kind of things but now this is, you know, sabians in canada, but it's a lot closer to home and I mean, literally it's the family so Things there's there's a different dynamic going on So seeing how they interacted and and thinking about the reasons why these changes might have been made is really interesting Um, but yeah, they have more competition now feisty comes in strong in the 70s and a lot of people like that sound it was just so different and um You know zilgin zilgin was always a company that was that was going to continue trying to improve and make better products but You know lighting the fire is a good analogy because They did lose some serious market share if in the 60s they had Whatever 90 Plus percent of the market share now it's lower. Maybe they're at 75 or 80 percent of market share And there's somebody there's the people that are in their hammer and lathe and making the symbols and the people who are deciding What's a rock ride and what's a medium ride? And then there's the people who the suits the guys who are sitting behind the desks and thinking, okay We're getting killed by piste. How can we compete with them? And um, all that's happening simultaneously and In the early 90s, so there's symbols that remain in the 90s that don't have a serial number on them Just from probably 92 to 94 This is by this point a customs exist Zs exist There's different designations if you look at your stamp and underneath there's no serial number then it was made before 1994 the last era of stamp is 94 through present and that's those were all done by lasers so they look Different because they start using a laser to to do the so if you have a serial number You can easily date your symbol You can look at your the first there's two letters And based on what those two letters are you can say this was a symbol that was manufactured in 97 or 2002 And that's a really cool system. It would have been awesome if they did that right at the beginning It's never never never would have happened But during the 90s and onward it's there's no more ambiguity. I have a symbol this is and there's guides for this 90s zillions are just super cool. I mean seeing a customs how they're developed seeing z which turned into z custom um For sure you've got e fx symbols e fx piggyback. They're doing different things. They're having they're still getting artist um artist input to to to make these decisions, but That's that's the run of that's the run of stamps for a zillion So that took a lot longer than I expected with the a zillion stamps because we were talking so much about the factory and the things that were going on um During the time but it's it's interesting and I'm I am looking at your outline here though and and to to Well, we let's I guess yeah, there's a and there's or I'm sorry. There's k as well So that seems like a little bit less information Oh, no, no, no, it's much much more and and and it is so I'm gonna speed run through the k stamps because I know a guy Who can do a k stamp episode and he knows a hundred times more than me and he actually owns all the symbols So I only I only own a handful of old k's. They're expensive. I missed the boat. You know, I do have some old k's I love them, but um That's a totally different different episode. I'm gonna speed run real quick through The k zilgen stamps. So k zilgen starts before a zilgen. So you have symbols being made in 1907 through 1929 They say constan de noble and that's you know, literally the name of the country changed um, so it says constan de noble, you know that it's during this time period and The subsets in for these k stamps are uh, I I don't know them. I mean they're they're There's guys who could say this is a old stamp type to See and that means something the stamp changed a lot and and in turkey the stamps were not being done with a hydraulic press They were definitely somebody holding a stamp and somebody else hitting a hammer onto it. So sure. So there's a lot more variation between them and people Most people Think that old k's are the best symbols ever made and I wouldn't disagree. I mean, there's a lot of variation They don't all sound good a lot of more cracked But generally speaking if you put your stick on an old k you're gonna hear something pretty magical with the old stamps It's even even more so so 29 to 59. That's a 30 year period Those are all old stamps and that's why there's so many designations um these same guys Have also tried to figure out the k the k line the the k stamps Um, but in 59 and remember these companies are operating independently. There's no, um Collusion between a zilgin and k zilgin at this point. They are competitors um Even though they're both using using the name so um In 59 they changed to intermediate stamps Kind of so if you look back to zilgin, you know during this time zilgin's in the small stamp era They're about to hit the 60s and they're you know, they're ready to they're ready to rock k zilgin was probably falling a very similar timeline. So, um 59 to um 66 is is intermediate stamp And in 67 to 77, which is when the k's uh, turkish k zilgin factory Folded that last decade are new stamps and those sound a lot different an old stamp and a new stamp are clearly Different by by sound by visual um Old stamps are more made by hand. They were they were um, you know, using a sledge hammer to put to press the bells in shape Totally different process turkish made versus american made Totally different things But that's the speed run if you want to know more about k zilgin's I'm going to recommend a guy who who can talk more about that more intelligently and definitively and um But just to know that those companies are operating simultaneously But following the same same trends, you know k zilgin got an influx of orders in the 60s too, you know Yeah, sure. And I mean just to give my like, you know outside I mean, I'm a drummer who loves zilgin, but my outsider perspective If you have a k They do not like the early ones. They do not look similar stamp wise at all It's very clearly mean like it like it says Istanbul or Constantinople. They're very different Stamps, which if you have such a special and nice symbol You probably kind of know what you're looking for a little bit more just because you have such a special symbol But look at these guides that are in the description, but they are not it's not something where you'll you'll look at it and go You know, oh, I'm not sure which one it is. It's pretty clear that these are Hammered with, you know a little like, you know stamp in their hand. It's it's obvious that these are a different kind of stamp Yeah, a totally different thing and I I know people who love k's and a's I know people who just love k's just love a's um So the the next thing that I want to talk about is is buying considerations So we've just went through the history of this and we were pretty Pretty thorough with it. I tried not to have any overlap of knowledge. That's either super commonly known Or is in the guides or has been covered in other episodes, but um, so that's my timeline of of of a zilgin and and briefly of k zilgin, but The the part that I think is really interesting is the buying consideration So now you know all this and you're interested and you want to play old zilgins So what do you consider when you're when you're buying when you're out here shopping for these symbols? So I have these things in in order of importance. So the number one is always sound So you're buying symbols online. You expect to hear a sound file If you're buying a symbol without a sound file You're either really know what you're doing or you've just made a horrible mistake Because it's such a subjective thing and symbols don't all survive either So if you've ever heard a symbol that just sounds totally dead and dry, that's because it was probably in a fire um You you see them all the time. It's just it's almost like surreal to hit it and just doesn't even sound like a symbol There's just nothing left. There's something about that the heat Are being in a fire, um You know, so it might look like the greatest symbol ever and you hit it and you're just super disappointed Yeah, something's wrong. Yeah, so I actually A couple of years ago Maybe maybe like a year ago. I just stopped shopping for symbols online I I had gotten a lot of the stuff that I that I wanted and I really got fed up with buying symbols online And the main reason is that you can't possibly know how they're gonna sound even hearing a sound file It's in someone else's room. It might be processed. You have no idea So personally where I'm at in my own symbol journey and because there's not a ton of stuff left that I'm looking for I Just buy symbols in person. I'll go to a drum shop and hit a symbol And I'll I'll you know be able to have a lot better information there and be much more likely to um Be happy with my purchase or I'll go to a drum show even if there's a hundred other people hitting symbols I've trained my ear to the point that I can hold up a symbol on the one finger and hit it You know hit it with a stick and know pretty much in one hit whether or not it's a symbol that that appeals to to my ear So, yeah, that's not the kind of thing that's easy to to teach or explain You have to just hit a lot of symbols and you have to You have to be committed to to the quest of Finding the symbols because it's not like you're buying a 20 inch a custom ride where you can literally hit 10 of them And they all sound great. Maybe they're slightly different weights The second consideration is gram weight people usually give the weights and grams and that can start to really mean something So I know because I've shopped for 24s for so long that a 24 inch symbol that weighs 3 000 grams is going to sound pretty good And one that weighs 4 000 grams. I'm not interested in it whatsoever Um anything less than 3000 now we're in an interesting territory because that's really light and that might be where Where you could make a pretty speculative decision if someone said I've got a 24 inch symbol and it's and it's 2700 grams Well, that's a really light symbol and like for a 22 Something that's the same weight range would be like anything that's around 2000 grams or slightly less That's the kind of thing you could only really start to Start to incorporate into your into your buying when you've just heard a lot of symbols But you can absolutely you can absolutely shop online, you know, definitely listen to sound files But um, sure that's a good way to look at it. Use the sound files to gain your knowledge And education and then try if you can to go into a store drum shop knowing what you've learned through the sound files makes sense sure and and um I have the third consideration here as condition So really look for cracks and that's why in a sense and really listen for cracks too If you're buying a symbol and you're in a in a loud drum room Absolutely hit it and hold it right up to your ear and see if you hear a rattle because if a symbol was cracked That's really bad. I mean the the the it's you can repair cracks And there's lots of cracked symbols that sound great, but once the symbol was cracked It's it's a different type of type of thing It's it's just uh, I mean a it kills the value and b it's only going to continue cracking. So you really have to factor that in And uh, I have as the fourth consideration source is the source trusted or the untrusted So a drum shop that's been around for 20 years Or even a lot of these younger guys who have their own drum shops that are specifically vintage focused A lot of them have a really good reputation. So if they sell you something And there was no damage disclosed and you get it and it's damaged. They're going to take care of you Some of them some of them are going to are going to say, you know, well Your sol because you bought the symbol and it sold as is and you know, I didn't see the crack You didn't see the crack You've already the transactions over and you're going to have a really hard time getting your money back but that's like a that's like the type of thing that's only going to happen once if if If that's happened to you you're probably never going to buy from that source again So you either trust your source or you don't and if you're buying from Joe Schmoe on facebook and they're saying hey, I got a 22 inch zilgin. You know, it's 1700 grams. It's an old k old stamp type 2 b Or whatever. Well, do we trust this person or do we not trust it? We can trust the drum shops because their reputation is on the line And they wouldn't exist if they kept screwing people over but can we trust this random person on facebook? Maybe maybe not so consider consider the source of your of your symbols It takes the reason that that drum shops are going to charge you a little more for your symbols is because They're doing the due diligence for you, you know Take your your fingernail like this and run it all the way along the edge of a symbol and and how many times does it catch on something? Are they cracks? Are they are they? Fleabytes are they are they big dings where a piece of the symbol is missing All those affect the value of the symbol but also so we're all the way down to number five before i'm even considering the price That's a really big consider. That's a really big consideration So once you've you've factored in all of those other considerations now. What is the price? So It's a 20 inch trance stamp and they want 750 dollars for you. Well, that's a lot of money um The condition better be pretty much perfect You know, you go backwards. Well Does it sound really good? Is the weight really light? Is it from a trusted source and it's in perfect condition? Well now maybe 750 dollars is actually a great deal for this symbol um I've seen 20 inch symbols that are like 1200 to 1300 grams I mean, they shouldn't even exist. It's almost like it was a contest at the factory to see who could lay the most Off. Yeah, but they exist and yeah, cool As the years go on less of them exist because they break, you know a thin symbol is going to break so um Thinking about the price versus the other considerations. That's where you get your value consideration Well, what kind of value am I getting here? If you have a 20 inch trance stamp and the guy wants 50 bucks Go ahead and pull 50 bucks out and buy, you know Check to make sure it's not cracked and go ahead and pay your 50 bucks because it doesn't matter if it's the worst dog ever You got such a good deal Yeah, someone wants it Exactly and I have had deals like that too where you know, you hit a 22 inch trance stamp and and you ask the person how much and they say 100 or 200 bucks and you don't have to think about it anymore because so all these all these factors Way into your your decision. Um This is kind of going back to the source, but um, you know, you thought about the condition the weight how it sounds the value Um, you thought about the source. Is this a symbol you're going to be able to return? So if you buy something from someone in a parking lot and you don't even know their name You know, you're just meeting up with them on facebook And then you go back and they've deleted their facebook. Well, that's going to be a no returns situation It's your symbol now, but if you bought from a reputable shop and you don't like it Well, maybe they'll give you your money back or give you a store credit and then you can continue shopping for symbols Sure And then there may be a little bit of like you buy a symbol on facebook And you just don't like it after a week and you want to return it That's that's nothing wrong with the symbol. That's yeah, there's that's not how the world works where you know again You didn't do anything wrong. You can also not do returns and it's not a bad thing. It's just you didn't Check it out or something a lot of these shops that deal primarily in vintage. They Just have an as is policy You can't return them because that's a slippery slope where you say, oh Well, if you just didn't like it and he gets the same with drums You get it and it's a little less green than I thought it was gonna be Well, I'm really sorry. But as the buyer that there's a there's a phrase Called caveat am tour and it means buyer beware or basically means do your own due diligence that is uh pretty um Important with symbols if you buy a symbol and it doesn't say anything about the condition. That's a red flag Because very few symbols, especially as they get older are in perfect condition It's kind of up to you to ask the the right questions And that's why again a reputable drum shop is going to tell you Hey, this doesn't have any cracks any keyholes Any flea bites or edge damage no warping. That's great If they say all those things then you're covered because if you get it and it's warped and cracked Well, now it's item not as described and you can easily get your money back from however you paid Two more just quick considerations that are lower on the list is is rarity So I said I'm looking for a 30 inch pre 60s zillion symbol I've only ever seen two so when one comes up I better factor in that rarity because regardless of what the price is regardless of what the condition is and almost regardless of how it sounds I might never see one again if there's only two and the people who have them aren't aren't going to come up off them then you know That's a pretty strong factor and that's why I put the last one as as fomo which means fear of missing out If you've been looking for a 30 inch symbol or a 28 inch symbol for uh Uh Five years and one finally comes up You better have that money ready and you better yeah be ready to to compete with a lot of other people Who are also maybe looking for the exact same thing Sure, it's like the it's worth what someone will pay for it kind of old saying where Uh, if you really want it then you can pay a little more for it And just all of this before we move on to the next section just makes me think that like Learning these things having this knowledge makes going to drum shops and drum shows even more fun because you can look at this Someone might look at a rack of old symbols and say, uh, I don't okay Whatever i'm not looking for a symbol But if you know what you're looking for you can do the hunt and like flip it over and look at the stamp and look for the Three dots and look for is it a k is it this and then you get another level of like Of fun of enjoyment from your search, which is just a super cool thing to have the ability to do it's it's a cool level of immersion too because The ability to get a good deal lessons as so if you were going in To my buddy joe shop wooden weather You're not going to go in there and find something where you know more about it than he does because he just knows so much about it So he's he's coming in and you say hey joe. What is this? He's not gonna be like? Oh, I don't know. It's an old symbol. Give me a hundred bucks. He's gonna be like well It's an 18 inch old k and it's light and it sounds great The price is the price is $1,300 and you know as a as a dealer and someone who really has their finger on the pulse for that Stuff and goes through hundreds of symbols per year It helps you shop a little bit, but it's different than going into Like an antique mall and finding that same 18 inch old k and the price is maybe 200 bucks, but that's still an amazing deal. Um, sure The shopping part of it is definitely Very fun the more educated you are the more likely you are To be able to find what you're looking for because some of it is you know We went through nine different factors to consider when you're looking for for a symbol You don't have to factor in all nine of those you could just say you could just do that first one Hey, I hit the symbol and I like it There's some people in this world who are independently wealthy where the price is no object to them They hit a symbol and they like it. Hey, how much is the cost? Oh, well, it's $700 You know, here you go $700 The prices I know Plenty of people like that where the the price is not an object. The sound is they just factor in that first one and um Maybe the condition maybe the condition the source Maybe they're not worried about returning it because they just hit it and they know that they love it It's exactly what they've been looking for for years. Yeah Not buying to sell they're just want to play it and that's what they like. Yeah Yeah, and and you know life is short so You know when I when I die and they figure out what to do with my Piles of symbols somebody's gonna have a really fun time Looking at what I collected what I kept and why and then figuring out what it's worth and how to sell it I mean good luck to them because The majority of the stuff I have I'm not ever selling it. I mean the because I went through this journey It took me years and years and years. I've invested so much time energy and money into it that The thought of selling it never enters my mind I mean, why would I if you looked for something for three years and barely got it and you had to pay Full retail or some of the stuff I paid more than full retail I would never even consider selling it because I'll never get it again Yeah, and the value fluctuates too. So There's nine factors here that you that you can you can put into play when you're considering But you do not have to consider all of them the the they're going to be weighted in a certain way based on your own Objectives goals and resources and if you like the sound of something that's by far the most important factor Yes, which on our outline here looking you kind of zero in a little bit more on factor one, which is sound which Just to kind of read a little what you have I think you think you've worded this very well What constitutes a bad good or great sound a subjective descriptive or flowery adjectives can be helpful But a sound slash video file gives you a much better idea Uh and as you said before playing the thing yourself Is really important and and as you've stated on your your outline the room you play it in changes and and it might sound okay And you know if you're in guitar center or a drum shop or whatever You get home and the thing doesn't sound anything near what you thought it was I remember as a kid buying my first like zbt crash and at guitar center I was like on a dw kit and I'm like this is amazing and I get home And I'm like okay, this doesn't sound nearly as good as I thought but but comparatively You just got to you know, keep it all into perspective and and find what's right for you And it changes too the the symbol that I would have loved 10 years ago. It's not the symbol I love today That's why it's cool to have variety different sets And Yeah, absolutely. There's there's nothing it's it's a journey. It's an imperfect science So you bring the symbol home from the chicago drum show and you feel like you've really factored in Let's say you're a diligent person and in a really, um, you know A really smart shopper and you feel like you factored in all nine factors and you feel like you got a great deal You check the condition. It's no it's no condition issues. You get it home And you hit it but boy it sounds just as great as I I thought at the show Then you put it up with your you bought a 20 and you put it up with your 18 and you're 16 And you hit them together and the 20 just doesn't sound right You know, it sounds great on its own. I went through this with 24s I I had a 24 and I hit us man. I love that put it up with another 24 Doesn't work and and going going going through the process. So you can be as as Uh specific or picky or not as you would like to in this process and the cool thing is Unlike shopping for a modern symbol. There's so much variation between the two that There is no right or wrong you can um So I I have a quote here from my friend Casey smith and he is awesome. He um, is a really great player Uh, he's one of the vitalizer artists who plays vitalizer pedals and he's got a hi-hat stand and I really love sending him stuff for free because he Gives me feedback and then he tags me and it's not just like someone who's has their hand out for something for free. He really Is on the same level with this stuff and I know he's been on a journey to find symbols for a long time He ended up really loving transtamps and I asked him for this episode Casey, what do you look for when you're shopping for an old symbol? And I'm just going to read this um verbatim Because I think he said it perfectly. He said a balance of stick wash and highs lows It's the marriage of the highs and lows that gets me The 50 zillions are a full spectrum of sounds but with a softness that is also hard to find I feel like modern dark symbols get lost unless they have more weight to them Modern bright symbols seem to lack the fullness of lows and just cut through everything Vintage stuff has the perfect blend that allows you to be heard but fills the right amount of space That's really beautiful. Okay, that's really beautiful. Casey because and and also it just shows that you are pretty far on this journey I know that he just bought a 20 inch transtamp And he's had like five or six other ones that language just shows such a level of sophistication And when you watch his instagram videos and you listen to his symbols You know the ability to the the overtones the undertones is it high is it low Does it blend when you when you hear him hit the 18 and the 20 together and the difference between them and the separation of the bell You can tell that this is a person who's really serious about their symbol sounds not only He he's tried modern symbols. He's tried Turkish symbols. He I know he owns lots of different things He owns things that are made by different makers But he has in in the process that we've described He has gone really far To the point where the sound that he hears in his head what he wants a symbol to sound like Is the sound that he hits every time he sits down to play And true it was not an easy thing to accomplish and to be able to articulate that well I'm really glad that he he was fine with me sharing this quote because I think it um Really epitomizes everything we've discussed so far When you put in the work, this is the payoff you can end up with a symbol sound That's not only completely unique to you But this is you know when I was 18 years old and I started Wanting a different sounding ride symbol I had a 21 inch a custom projection ride and it sounded great You could crash on it And I started hearing these other rides these old k's and different k's and stuff k custom I thought you know wow these are really expensive, but I want my ride to sound different and I remember just Trying all these different symbols going to a drum shop hit every single one You know you buy something you get it and it's not quite right. It's too dry. It's too thin But you don't know until you know Yeah Being being a very prudent shopper and someone who who has dedicated themselves to to this journey of figuring out the sounds the payoff is When you get to where you want to be You know totally Yeah, very well said and I will say looking him up Casey schmitz instagram handle is c schmitt. So a c s c h m i d t Y s on instagram look them up And and check them out because that's that was very well said and like you said, that's the end of the rainbow is like Having that like it's like it sounds like like almost like wine or something where to me I'm like I will drink a $10 bottle of wine and be happy I'm more of a beer guy, but it's like it's it's but the people who really really enjoy it can Tell the notes and everything in it and I think symbols are a lot like that As well look at eric binder too um Yes, eric binder is an Amazing player and he has lots and lots of old k's and old a's And he's he's a person who's a lot further on this journey than I am I got really lucky to have the stuff that I have I also paid a lot of money for it and looked for years and years and years, but um You can be the person who ends up with a great set of 60 symbols that you that you really Love or you can be the guy who really wants a set of old stamped k's And wants to be a full set my buddy bob meyer. He lives in new jersey and he He's uh in his 70s. I don't know exactly how old he is, but he's you know He's in his mid to late 70s But very young at heart and he has all his sets of old k's and old a's and he's had him forever And he completed this journey in the 90s. So if you're starting this journey today Talk to someone like bob talk to someone like eric ask questions shop. Um, it pays to look At the details, but yeah, you can go as far. That's what's cool about too You can go as far down the rabbit hole as you want or you can just stay near the entrance of the rabbit hole Um and get and get some cool nice consistent 60s Sets and it's really it's really about what sounds right to you what feels right to you And about having fun and I just it's supposed to be fun and enjoyable and uh, you know If you're like struggling to feed your kids with money Then don't go out and buy some 1200 dollar symbol or something like that, which We're all tempted to do but looking at the next one considering a source I feel like because of time and we're trying to not have this be a two and a half hour episode I think you did a good job of explaining it, but I really like how you have issues to be mindful of Can we hit on that a little bit or is there anything in there that I want to make sure you hit? Yeah, I think I think during the during the first section where we talked about the source I think that's good enough for now. Um But I will speed run the issues to be mindful of so, um Trusted source versus untrusted source. It could be um A lot of reasons why someone might sell you something That's not what they said it was uh, and it's not always deception. So um Really considering your source to me is a very important one I have certain people certain shops that I would never buy a symbol from them Even if the price was right and even if I loved it just because I I believe in speaking with your wallet I think that if you Really do not trust a source Even if they're a source that has a lot of inventory coming through their hands um If you don't trust the source then speak with your wallet say I don't Trust The way that you handle and sell symbols and no matter what you have. I'm not ever going to buy anything from you I'm pretty far down this rabbit hole where I have had to blacklist um certain certain dealers and um That I think is it's the strongest thing you can do is speak with your wallet You know, hey, I don't like the way you're doing the business or or the way that you handle this transaction and Now i'm not going to give you any more of my money I I think I think that's uh, you know, that's the right you have as a consumer. Um, sure But you'll know you'll know if you run into an issue It's usually you bought something and it's not as described and that's a really common issue It's also common very easy to solve now uh like With paypal even if you bought something from a drum shop and you got it and it is cracked And let's say that you paid through your credit card call your credit card and say hey This person sold me something and when I got it it was cracked So I want my money back and maybe and obviously always give the dealer or the seller a chance to make it right But if they're being a stick in the mud and they're saying well, you know, that's tough luck then Not only can you never do business with them again But call your credit card company or paypal never pay for something with friends and family paypal always pay for goods and services That's good. That's good advice. You pay you pay a little bit more. It's like three percent or whatever which on a You know $600 or whatever symbol that actually does end up being a sort of substantial amount of money of like extra that you're paying But you you'd be amazed what you can get what what's covered with that. So yes great actionable advice right there Yeah, and that's just that's just I mean you could do that as like a That could be the end result that you take away from all of the source considerations If you don't trust the source Then don't do business with them because this stuff is not rare Especially you're putting together a 60s 70s set of symbols, you know, you want a 18 20 and a 22 and a pair of 14 High hats you have It's a buyer's market because there's tons of this stuff. So When you're shopping factor that all in and don't do business with people That you don't trust Um, that's also why I like doing business in person with cash because it's very easy. I'm here. I am interested in the symbol Here's your price. Here's what I would like to pay. It's you can almost always close that gap So let's say you have that 28 inch Trans stamp Symbol that I'm super interested in but you want $3,000 for it. Well, I'm here and I have a thousand dollars in cash So Money talks. Yeah, do you want it? You know, usually yeah, sure. I have bought some crazy symbols for some really good prices because I had cash And the people were motivated sellers. So I think I think this is a good spot to wrap it up because We've gone through the timeline here. Here's you know, this is all stuff that you can you can figure out on your own but When you are on this journey, you decide you want to play vintage items. Here's the considerations and Good luck and have fun on your journey because I've had a lot of fun And now I'm in the stage where I get to sit down and play these symbols and just be really inspired by by the instruments Um, I have nothing against modern symbols. I actually own modern ish Turkish symbols that I play. Um, you know, I that I play in A bandwidth and I don't use my old zilchins but when I sit down at at my main set, you know, my camcos and I Put up a set of matching trans stamps, you know That sound is is the is the payoff. That's that's the That's the end result of all of all of these things we're talking about, you know You have done such a good job again as a as a pretty young guy of like, uh Really being very knowledgeable and it's no joke where we go to the drum shows and you pick something up And you know about it and you look at it, but you're also just like very approachable about this whole thing So, uh, if anyone is at the chicago show, which I don't know if you're going to be there this year I guess you're still figuring that out not not this year, but I'm on I'm on the fence I had to pick covington or chicago and I picked coming covington. I might still go to chicago show, but As a person who is 90% completed this journey, I no longer suffer from that FOMO I don't worry that that 28 inch symbol is going to be there because what's going to happen is a dealer's going to Scoop it up and I'll see it online in a week and then I can still get that symbol without having to ever leave my house so Not that that would be I mean, obviously you love to have a great story and you find it from the original owner's grandson and you get a great price, but That's not exactly realistic Especially at a show as big as chicago If you're gonna now if you're going to go to the Delaware show or the pennsylvania show and shop Yeah, you're much more likely to find it be a really great deal because there's fewer dealers there, but when there's 30 To 50 dealers in a room Now it's pretty Pretty unlikely that you're going to find a slam dunk deal You're probably going to have to buy it from one of the dealers and you're probably going to have to pay You know a higher price But that's all part of it the the ecosystem and how it exists and how you function in that ecosystem is totally up to you as a buyer and Yeah, that that would be my closing advice is is just to make sure that you Are true to yourself and your goals and your budget, you know Because it's going to look different for for everybody the symbols that that I have ended up with that I really love Are going to be totally different from the symbols that someone else and that's why it's really cool to see people Like my buddy Luke Kondrich who's on a similar journey, you know, he wants old he wants old symbols I think you probably met Luke He did look at we've been emailing about he's going to do his he and his boss at their company are going to do an episode about history of Drumhead art not painted drum heads. That's a different thing, but like, you know, the decal like gk and br and Fast-forwarding that that's awesome. Luke's a great guy. I met him in 2019 when he was, you know, barely 20 years old and It's it's it's just cool because at that same the 2009 coming to show where I met Luke I picked up a 24 inch block stamp A and that became the first 24 that I had that I kept Because I had plenty of other 24s. I had picked up and they just they weren't right But that one that was the first symbol where I hit it and Everything started to make sense of wow. This is exactly what I want now. I want the 26 and now I have Well, I don't want to get too too much into what I have but um I have I have everything I want. I have a 24. I have a 25. I have a 26 I have you know, several 26s several 24s So that to me is really fun because now I can put together sets. So 26 25 24 16-inch hi hats. I'm I'm pretty happy with that setup, but You know a different person is going to look for something completely different. So Yeah, I love it's a whole another topic But I do love the idea of putting together sets and the fun of that and making things that work You know, you've got your set of vintage whatever a's or your set of vintage You know trans stamp or you've got all you can put together different pieces or even more modern like You know, you have a set of a customs or something like that. It's fun to have that grouping of symbols but um awesome vincent. Well, this is great. So uh everyone listening vincent is kind enough to um hang around actually we're going to record it at a later date, but we're going to do it a Bonus episode on patreon, which we're going to talk about vincent's personal symbol journey of kind of the things he has and I'll mention my symbol journey as well, which is Not really as impressive as vincent's because he's clearly knows this stuff But I've collected symbols over the years and then also we're going to talk about knockoffs That you hear about your zilcos your allergens your zene gin all of your gins that are zil gin Um, yeah, so we'll do that and we'll record it at a later date To make sure that we have time because this is great, but it went a little longer than we were hoping originally so um Thank you again to gabriel martinez and gm designs For sponsoring the show on patreon and all that good stuff I will say the bonus episode idea in general was vincent's idea. That was your idea So thank you very much for that. It's been, you know, the why read people signed up for patreon. So Uh, yeah, buddy. Thank you for being here vincent. I appreciate it man. You're you're very welcome I think the patreon is well worth the money. I mean you get extra episodes It's not like you're just getting a shirt or a sticker. I mean you can get a shirt or a sticker or a shout out like gabriel Thank you gabriel for doing that. Um but uh Yeah, patreon is well worth it the tier started two dollars and it's pretty much just a no brainer if you are absorbing this content Um, it's a great way to to support the podcast. Um, I do want to mention because I didn't um Come around to this but mike leighton who who passed last year tragically He was the guy who really got me into this at the 2000 Jesus it must have been 17 or 18 show he started coming to these shows And boy was he a wealth of knowledge his knowledge still exists in archive format through drum forum So you can go on there and if you see m leighton talking about He knew a lot a lot of stuff, but he knew a lot about zilgins He probably knew more about zilgins than anyone i've ever met And obviously a lot of people know a lot of things But he was the first person I talked to and it was because I was looking for that 26 to complement my 24 And he had three of them. There was only three in the whole room He had all three maybe he bought him at the show, but I mean he was just a wealth of knowledge and um Seeing the way that he collected talking to him interacting with him I is it was such a such a privilege so um Rest in peace to mike and and thank you mike for for really helping me along in this journey Always share your information. Don't hold things Close don't keep don't keep secrets if if you find people who are interested in the same thing Um, and also don't hoard hoard your symbols. I'm not really wanting to talk with that But I am going to let go a lot of my symbols in the next couple years. Um, sure But mike really epitomized that not only Really being just super knowledgeable about it, but also Having an amazing ear and then of course sharing that knowledge with with further generations. You know, it's very important That is nice and I know he meant a lot to you and probably a lot To the people who listen to this who are longtime collectors and I uh, it's an unfortunate thing But this podcast it's been around for four and a half years now It has become a platform for there's some people Who have been spoken about on the podcast or who have been on the show who aren't around anymore So again, it's nice to thank and remember those people. So I appreciate you doing that. Um, so again vincent You're a real buddy in the community and you're a pillar of the drum community And I think everyone enjoys seeing you at the shows and enjoys What you've said today to learn more about zildjian symbols and we will have you back on for more Pedal stuff down the road and another episode. I'm sure so, um For now vincent. Thank you for being here my friend. Thanks so much bar. I really appreciate it