 Hello, can you hear me? Yes, Minister. Thank you so much for taking your time. I can hear you very well. That's great. That's great. So let's get started Yes, um before we start is it fine if I record this because then I can focus on speaking? Yeah, of course and just in case the vote the voice is not getting through very well I'm recording on my side also and at the end of the interview you can choose whether we publish this as a Transcript after 10 days of editing or maybe we upload it just to the YouTube after a date that you specify Yeah, yeah, I think and you know actually my my plan would be to use it for short articles So just use sort of excerpts of it for an article But it's just you know for me it's easier to to heaven recording because then I don't need to take any Yeah, and I would love to love to talk about two things actually The first part would be sort of more generally about data data protection also the upcoming GDPR here in Europe And then in the second part I would like to speak about AI, which is what I cover mostly So yeah, so if I you know that my first question would be next week Europe is Or the GDPR will take effect finally on the 25th Do you believe that Europe is taking the right step with You know this updated set of data protection laws. Yeah, definitely so Taiwan has our privacy act very closely resembles that of the previous version of the European Privacy Act and We have also added Parts of it that we feel that are very important such as the user's right to be empowered to interrogate the data Operators and so on and and that those parts are also not just in GDPR, but further enhanced And so we think it's totally in the in the right direction and the National Development Council here in Taiwan has already Allocated a whole website section just for GDPR compliance And we've worked with all the relevant ministries to publish guidelines for GDPR compliance So we're totally supporting it Mm-hmm and when it comes to I believe it's called PIPA right the the acronym of your own data protection act from 2010 originally if I'm not mistaken that that's exactly right. Yes Yeah, when so when it comes to this act I mean, you know data protection is something that's in flux and these rules need to be constantly updated and so on Would you say that you know in future revisions of your own act? You you might draw inspiration from the European approach because it is very comprehensive. Yeah, of course, so There are of course exceptions to The privacy guarantees and different jurisdictions Emphasize different things, right? So I think all of us encourage academic use But for some European countries, there are exceptions made for historical research for the archivist and the Histo historiography here, but we don't make an exception for the history People here, but instead we make exceptions for for example criminal statisticians and criminal investigation and things like that So so there are different social norms is what what we're saying but there are parts of it such as data portability and The other more technical aspects of it that we're already Installing on a regulation level Not necessarily on the law level, but already on the regulation level and I think GDPR is a great Opportunity for us to choose parts of things that we already do on regulation level and on our next law revision Put it in and also in addition, for example, the data protection authority at a moment each ministry in Taiwan is a DPA for all the commercial entities registered under that ministry That's usually not a problem, but for platform economy and more companies We are seeing that one operator may fall under the jurisdiction of multiple agencies or ministries So some harmonization of that is great And we're seeing that in Japan also they used to have each ministry acting as DPA But now they also have a central agency in charge of harmonizing the different interpretations of Data protection laws within all the different ministries. So the National Development Council is now also taking charge of that and we're kind of reshaping the Department for Information Management Into potentially the Department for Digital Development So that it can be more Kind of a oversight of all the different ministries. So so we see it as a positive opportunity It's there's there's talk here in Europe about the GDPR potentially becoming a model for the world Data protection. What's your what's your reaction to this? How do you feel? Could it be a sort of a role model? Well, I mean there's parts of the GDPR That I think are very advanced and that we should definitely Learn about I think in particular the requirement for the data operator to To explain in understandable terms Instead of, you know, just a request to explain at all in any technical terms I think that is a real innovation and that's the one that I personally feel very important And I could call that a model of the world But I think there's other parts that we will have to Adjust based on the social norms here. For example in in Taiwan the special sensitive Personal data we have actually more strict protection Than the GDPR one for example the medical records Health records genetic information and also criminal records and things like that We are actually putting into a much more stricter provision and so we're not Looking at GDPR is that we can relax those, right? So so they are part of it that we we need to harmonize within our practice But generally I would say it's on the on the right direction So I'm slowly now shifting towards AI as I said and and I mean of course, you know Data and AI are closely related AI doesn't work without data There was the last month the European Union Released its own strategy on AI and in a nutshell, you know sort of summarized in a nutshell what what what the EU Said it's like its idea is to become a leader when it comes to ethics of AI and to sort of preserve Fundamental rights along with the rise of AI and you know that the idea is that this will make the continent Competitive in the race where right now we have the US leading, but China catching up very quickly Wait, um First question is like how what do you think about that this approach? well, I think Any any public discussion is a good thing because the the scenario that we don't want to see is that a researchers Stop publishing and starts, you know working in cabalas and conspiracies that would be to the detriment of everyone, right? So so we want to encourage our researchers to work in the open and to work out AI safety and Ethic norms with the whole society with the other stakeholders and in fact this just this week We're going to push a new legislation to our parliament. It's called the AI mobility sandbox and I see that Germany is Setting a kind of AI ethic for autonomous vehicles that puts human first animal second and and some Very interesting ideas about non-discrimination of any race and as density and things like that when they consider human life And so on which I think are very good guidelines But in reality what people care about is not only such top-down philosophical guidelines, but very practical thing like When a AI driven vehicle runs into something not necessarily people when it runs into a building, for example How do we interrogate that vehicle and see the world from its perspective so that it can communicate with people and This process we already have a word father is it's called domestication, right? But I think just like the wolves and earlier humans co-domesticated each other So become modern dogs and modern human We also need a way for the early AI vehicles to not just be subject to some top-down ethic standard, which is important I'm sure but also interrogate its integration into the society case in the example is that For example, the MIT media lab has this class called persuasive electronic vehicles or PEVs and they're automatic Vehicles, but they're tricycles. They are very slow driving tricycles, but it can still carry cargo and it can still carry people And we have that because it's using the right of throughout just as pedestrians We have that running around Taipei in the social innovation lab And we recorded a lot of interaction of these vehicles with people because it's slow enough if it runs into people It doesn't really hurt anyone We were able to gather because it's open source and all the data is shared We were able to have the local university college students tweak it so that we can try various different ways For it to signal its intentions and for the human to signal its intentions and maybe merge the worldview so that we can view a playback of the incident from the vehicles viewpoint and so on and We were able to do that because Taiwan is a place that values experiments And I think in the AI mobility sandbox what we're doing is I will have the local regional governments Declare their social need that could be fulfilled by a limited testing of AI vehicles And it's not just driving but it could be ships. It could be drones and then but slowly Maybe under a speed limit or something to experiment with the business model But the important thing is not some top-down rules But for the society through this kind of experimentation gain a first-hand understanding of how to commit co-domesticate with AIs and then write up such multi stakeholder Opinions and reflections into something that could in turn inform the interaction design of the Vehicles so that they can explain themselves and integrate better So what I'm trying to say is that with the AI mobility sandbox We're taking a grassroots approach instead of a few legislators and few zero Rations and a few computer science ministers. That's me Declaring there's such and such thing is good and ethical from a AI standpoint We're going to using a slow speed limited area sandbox and for the Society to to work out with the individual vendors and at the end of experiment if it's click declared a good first Society will just incorporate part of it into the regulation and if it's not a good idea Well, at least it doesn't really hurt anyone and we can demand Extra restrictions of the future experimentation. So we already have some success with the fintech sandbox with AI banking Right. So now we think and mobility should be the next sandbox after it the AI banking one I'll get back to this in one second, but I want to ask one other question If you know if you look sort of the global Landscape when it comes to artificial intelligence at the moment You have the US which is still leading and the US follows traditionally a very business-centered approach where the expertise is with the big tech Companies, you know, sir. That's where it happens. We have China which Wants to catch up very quickly and follows, you know provides companies with data is also you know what I would Describe as a surveillance state and then Europe that wants to play what's to come up with this third path And they say, you know, we need to be sort of a place where people know that their data is being You know used safely whether they can still to that and in this sort of like tableau of three different kind of Broader, what do you see? What do you see Taiwan? Well, I think it's the oversimplification because I just returned from The the valley and I talked with the open AI folks and the open AI as you know is a charity and It's explicit goal is to work out safety Lost for the generalized artificial intelligence and I would not say that they're profit-driven at all that they were all very Interesting AI researchers trying out all the different branches trying to reach generalized artificial intelligence before a maliciously Intent actors do so and I think their charter There's part of their charter. I think can still use some More conversation and explore more deeply Because the regulatory co-creation I think is very important But I think their open AI charter strikes a pretty good balance between what you said as human rights Interests and the private sector interests. So I don't think they're necessarily competing with each other I mean the the US and the Europe Approaches I would will not comment about the compatibility between the surveillance approach and the other approaches So I think in Taiwan because my domain is not just digital But it's also open government and social innovation and especially social entrepreneurship what I always try to Encourage in in the constituents and also in the civil society is to not think about human right or environmental causes or any other social justice as opposite to profit or to business or commercial interests with the right design of social entrepreneurship you can use the for-profit motive for social good You with the like the b-corp movement and other movements So I think AI only takes off if there are incentives from all the stakeholders to not just share the data But also publish what whatever they learn because frankly speaking there is no generalized theory at a moment guiding the field of AI It's it's just random. I would say random walk from all the different kind of applications and trying to solve Practical issues and that's not necessarily applying to the field that it's Experimenting but sometimes, you know just playing go or playing Amiga games can carry over to some other field So what I'm trying to say is that we we have to align carefully the the social benefits and the private sector for-profit motives, which is why why Taiwan's AI plan, which is in AI dot Taiwan dot GOV dot TW Strikes the balance by saying we are going to have the small and medium enterprises Find out which part of their work can be automated and that's obviously a commercial motive But then for the academia and the people working on research to try to as part of solving this problem Also find out ways that's social innovation. That's to the benefit of everybody's through regulatory co-creation so with the industry proposing solutions and academia and the civil society refining the solutions to be acceptable by the General public. I think we have to strike a balance between the private and the civil society interest And I think that is actually what most of the large companies that I have interviewed with like Microsoft or Google Is doing anyway. They they because of partly GDPR But also because of a collective Awareness of the potential damage that AI can do to the human society You will see that once they roll out AI product, they very quickly rush to say Oh, by the way, Google duplex will declare itself is a bot and she will refine its interaction So that it can integrate with human society without deception and things like that And we don't usually see that kind of prefixes in the previous product announcement So that to me is a signal that they're also taking this balance approach Yeah Speaking about this you you recently you as in Taiwan the country Managed to attract a couple of American companies to to to come to come to Taiwan and and Open up their own AI divisions there. That's right So this is I mean, I understand a lot of the expertise is there here in Europe We have a similar phenomenon here with them opening their divisions here and their politicians here and lawmakers who are Concerned about a brain drain on our own territory, if you will So that you know that that talent is going to the US companies so that a lot of the expertise still remains with them Is that something that you are concerned about? Well, I see AI mostly just like the invention of fire The more democratized it the more safe it is It's true If it's just a handful of people in a society can use it and everybody else treat as a black box Then we run the risk of a lot of social catastrophe because of people's misuse, but it's just like fire, right? It's dangerous. It has been entire cities, but we teach how to use fire In a safe and responsible way from when people are like four years or five years Oh, right as part of the cooking class. So what I'm trying to say is that we're in our K212 Curriculum we're explicitly saying AI access to ICT media literacy Criticism thinking it's not just some two hour or four hour class that all the student must go through It is actually to be ingrained into all the different fields so that the students these AI is just a another tool To to simplify their life while being very critically thinking about Biases and and other things when they learn all the different disciplines. It's not just for their computer science Discipline and we have integrated into the curriculum starting next year So what I'm trying to say is that if there are many AI researchers doing cutting-edge research in Taiwan I think it will increase the public discourse on AI because we will have Thousands of people who are knowledgeable enough about us who can participate in our democratic process And once the K212 people and all the children in Taiwan because broadband is a human right here Have easy access to GPU computing or other air computing clusters I think this this is actually what Causes the reverse of the brain train right it's causing that everybody is becoming AI aware And I think in a few years we will not think about AI as some very special thing It would just be part of the automation just like office automation. It was treated as something magical But but now it is just part of their life That's right. That's very interesting also the analogy with the fire. I have two more questions One would be that is sort of looking at the US there was and the White House held an AI summit last last week And from what I heard from my US colleagues the the administration the Trump administration signal to the companies that they That they you know won't Regulate massively at this point in time because they say for for AI to foster growth There should be little regulation at this point And what do you think it is that the right approach? Should there be regulation? How much regulation should there be for AI at this? No, as I said, I think the model is for co-regulation, right? So our regulatory co-creation and so if a company come to us saying, you know AI banking is currently outlawed by the you know Vintag laws of the financial Minister instead of saying you were doing a light touch or we're doing a heavy touch We instead say okay, right up exactly where does our regulations have hampered your growth and have a multi-stakeholder panel look into it As long as you don't cross some red lines like I don't know funding the terrorists or money laundry You can't do experimentation of that, but other than those things you can do an experimentation They challenge the existing laws and regulations without the regulators and lawmakers have to commit one way or the other We can through six months of experimentation have everybody affected by this new AI banking service or very soon AI mobility service Deciding whether it's a good idea or not. I think it's also part of what we just called the media literacy or AI literacy idea Because if it's co-regulated with the civil society everybody learns a little bit about how the machine views the world But if it is just a handful of regulators then everybody ends up non-the wiser So so I think it is Easy to say that we need to uphold some standards on freedom on freedom of expression assembly and freedom France surveillance from coercion and from censorship, but other than those basic freedoms I think all the norms of interacting with AI cannot be done in a broad brush It has to be very specific to specific air implementations and specific to a county even And on how the people there want to react and maybe the county nearby doesn't want to react the same way, which is great I think there is a lot of diversity of how to incorporate Domestic animals even into human populations and we should use a very similar analogy when incorporating AI into everyday life of people Especially if they're upgrading for our assisting role to a autonomous role My last question would be you know again sort of looking back at Taiwan and Europe Where do you see very broadly speaking for AI? Where do you see the potential for Taiwan and Europe to cooperate? Right. I think in Taiwan the research into AI safety and AI What we call trust trustable AI explainable AI interpretable AI there's a lot of interest in it, but I think Not just GDPR by the recent declarations I think it provides a model because for example, if German has passed a certain law that translate into algorithm On the automakers doing self-driving cars in Germany, then with our AI mobility sandbox We don't have to start from scratch, right? We can incorporate those same algorithmic Oversight and accountability into our Co-creation system and start from where Germany has started. So we're not seeing any competition between those Norms because essentially this is codifying our social expectations Not usually into law anymore, but into code, right and and code has the The property that it transcends jurisdictions You can take the same code and compile it into different languages and different regulations Even that part is being taken care of by AI. So I think At the end we will have a set of abstract Code and algorithm and parameters and our regulatory co-creation will be the society's Tuning of those parameters and hyper parameters, but the end result will be shareable Among all the different jurisdictions and for example, just take another non AI example just recently The ministry of transportation and communication here has regulated that shared driving And so a coupling is limited to like two times To commute and commute back and if you start charging people for those two trips, you're still coupling But if you're doing it more than two times a day, then from the third time onward, you're essentially doing You know a uber like rental car service and and you start being eligible for taxation and whatever above the third Trip and I can easily imagine that in other jurisdictions in Europe using the european platform economy laws It's not two trips or four trips or whatever But but I think the the structure of the argument will be the same and so we will be able to co-create on the code-based Norms that the society can up in or up out and tune the parameters like two trips or four trips And we're going to see very much the same thing About AI banking and AI mobility and other applications Minister, thank you so much. Um, this was really really helpful and thank you also. I know it's late in taiwan already So thank you for no, no, it's just great. Yeah, so so I yeah my I you know, I'm I want to Actually, I want to publish it as fast as possible. Um, but it's it's not entirely in my hands But no editors Brussels, but I I will keep you updated. I will send you an email as soon as I know I mean, I'm sure it's going to be out this week. This is really my my right So after it's published, would you would you mind if we just publish this youtube video? No, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I'll post it as a unlisted video. So it's not Searchable by anyone else. I'll pass you the link and you can review it And once the article is published, you just let me know and we'll flip it into public Okay, that sounds great. That sounds really good. Thank you very much for your time and you know, have a great day Thank you for the great questions. Thank you