 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half, and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat. But be warned, it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis, it's getting even more muddy. Which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all of the history is lost and buried under a pile of... cookies. We're the traditional market. The Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all of the smoking mirrors. In doing so, we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose. And my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the cannabis underground. This is the Revolution. Hey everyone, welcome to Breeders Syndicate. Welcome to the season finale of Season 8. Today, me and Thousand. Thousand will be joining us. We're going to be going through users' questions and kind of have a relaxed kickback episode to end the season for a real kind of serious breeding topic. So yeah, let's kick it off. Yeah, sure. Okay, so this is one we got from Buckshot Hill actually a while ago, but we couldn't get to it. And we'll see how we do. Okay, so Buckshot wants to know, he says, I've been talking with Knots about the early pearl and how best to proceed with my goals for finding a long lost phenol or doing a 2.0 remake with starting material that's period correct. The topic has been brought up to the syndicate before and it's been discussed or maybe speculated that NL1 might be the unknown indica Neville used to make early pearl improved. I've been planning across with Silver Pearl to bring the DNA of 90s early pearl back into the mix. Not so agreed that is a good direction for a starting point. I've also been looking into what pure indica would have been available to Neville in 89.90 and Big Bud fits the possibilities. I started Perfect Pearl Seeds from Pip and Lost Pearl from Greenhouse, both are Silver Pearl S1s. What do you think, you know, does this sound appropriate? Yeah, so this is an interesting one because this is a mixture of provenance and what we know of these lines as well as a breeding question. So what do you think that? Early Pearl is an early, early line brought to the community by Rob Clark. I'm not sure who like the basis for it I should say we're brought to the community by Rob Clark. I'm not sure who's actually responsible for it. Later on, Early Pearl worked its way to Holland and into Neville Shownmaker's hands. According to his one of his last partners, Early Pearl ended up being one of his favorite strains ever. And he was constantly working to try and define the sweetness that was in the Mexican in Early Pearl. Because he felt like the sweetness that was coming through in the Early Pearl was from the Mexican or Oaxacan type side. So yeah, that's the idea that he was going for behind Early Pearl was the sweetness in that Mexican. And he liked the high a lot and I agree. I like the high from the pearls quite a bit. If we're going to do an Early Pearl project, I think that's a great place to start. And mostly because I love Silver Pearl so much. I don't know though, I don't remember how much different like the S1s like from Greenhouse are going to be from like say, I had one Early Pearl clone that went around San Diego and Early Pearl. There's a bunch of different ones and I don't know how similar they all were to each other. And I don't know how similar Silver Pearl was to like the Early Pearl clone I saw. You know what I mean? Yeah. But if you want a basis for provenance like that, that perfect pearl from Pippus Killer, some of the best Silver Pearl work that there is. With Silver Pearl though, there's definitely some stunk one in the smells. But it's a world of other scents too. So it's one of the few skunk one lines that really doesn't get too muddled down with skunk one on Silver Pearl. Yeah. Those lines would be perfect. I don't know anything about like I said, I don't know anything about the Greenhouse line and they're not very consistent. They kind of, I mean, they're notorious for their bait and switching in the first place. So, you know, never know what you're going to get there. But with Pippus Line, I've seen it, run it, used it, read with it. It's amazing. So I think that's an amazing thing to start with. As far as the unknown Indica, I think the big definitely a viable option. There's not a lot of breeding that Neville did where he didn't disclose what he was using. And I tend to have the sneaking suspicion and it's just like from knowing Neville and talking to him and, you know, messing with them that I think, you know, usually when I see things like unknown Indica being referenced by Neville, it immediately makes me think, oh, he's probably using Afghani one or Sam. Because he hated Sam this company so much that like if there was any use to name his work. Yeah, if there's anyone you strip credit from, it would totally be Sam. You know, so yeah, all you ever did was talk Afghani one, but I swear to God he used it and a lot of stuff. And named it other things called other things, you know, so that's just a theory. I know some of the other partners share that theory with me to separately. Yeah, because Buckshot mentioned that his guess was Big Bud, but I imagine that if it had been there's no reason for it to not have been named, right? Yeah, yeah, especially at that point. Yeah, fascinating. I mean, I had a thought here, which is also, and because he doesn't mention it, whether Buckshot himself has a sense of the pearl that he wants to capture, or whether this is kind of like an abstract or most like academic thing, and he doesn't have that experience. I think his family had a early, early pearl cut or seedline. So that's why they're going back to hunt. So I think they have a lot of experience with the pearls. So that'll be tremendous help, you know, obviously, like if you have a ton of experience with early pearl and you're running through a bunch of silver pearl crosses, that's going to be tons of help, you know, to select away from the skunk one and everything else. Cool. All right. Well, Buckshot, I guess you got to keep us updated on how this goes. Yes, please do. Shout out to Buck and his wife. Yeah, I hope you're doing well, buddy. Okay. So this is a bit of a broader question, Matt, and this one has more to do with the industry and maybe ethics and philosophy a little bit as well, but I'll start. So this is from Squirrel. Okay. And he asks, what's the difference between a breeder, a seed maker, and a seed company? He also wants to talk, he also wants to ask you about ghost breeding. Okay. And there's more to the question that concerns Josie and subcode, but maybe I don't know, do you want to like include that? No. Do you want to just address his first question? We'll do the first one first. Yeah. Okay. So this is something like I've spent a lot of my career trying to not necessarily educate people on, but try to help define this for the community and make it very clear that there are different categories so that when people are shopping, they understand who they're buying from, what they're buying, and all of that. And that's the difference between a breeder, a seed maker. What's the last one? They said? Seed company. I guess maybe that could mean potentially like a seed bank, maybe. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's do breeder. Seed company, seed bank, seed maker, seed company, same thing to me. So breeder, let's start with a breeder. There is rarely going to be anyone who can actually call themselves a breeder in cannabis. Even though our show is called the breeder syndicate, like realistically looking at agricultural breeding, I can't call myself like a real breeder. I don't sit there and work a line for 25 years, bring it to market, you know, like hunt sports in a line, like all that stuff. To me, that's very much breeding breeding. In cannabis, though, we kind of considering what we've had, you know, and who's led the way and how they've done it. Breeding has been a lot different from our cultural perspective, right? It's so much different than ag. So the breeders in our community tend to be what we consider the people who have worked many lines, multiple generations, you know, they start with a goal. They look at their tools in their toolbox, be it clones or seed lines, and they say, what can help me get to this goal? And then they, you know, they use those tools and work until they meet that goal. It could be several generations in or it could be one generation, but that's breeding. Breeding is just goal oriented selection to me. Then there's seed making and anybody can make seeds. Like that's not a secret. Like anybody can make seeds and anybody can make seeds that turn out decent. Anybody can make seeds that turn out insanely fire. But seed making isn't necessarily breeding. While you are making seeds while breeding, a seed maker is one in our community. The definition would be one who makes seeds, but they're not really into the selection. They're not really working lines. They're doing, you know, one-off crosses here. They are boom, you know, it's and it's a very valid way of selling seeds. Like most of the market is this. I'd say 99.9% of the market is this. I do a lot of this. One-off crosses, there they are. If you want to take it further, feel free. If not, you know, drop it. I think it's the most common thing you're going to run into in the seed world is seed makers. Now you can have seed makers that do breeding projects. I would say that I've done that, but I've done more seed making projects than breeding projects. And I think that's the majority of our community. And then you have something like a seed bank. And a seed bank is somewhere where you can go and get the idea would be that you can go and get a multitude of different options of lines from a seed bank. Usually a seed bank hosts many breeders in cannabis in our culture. That's how it's usually gone down. But then there are some breeders like CSI that are so prolific that you can literally get almost any cross from them. And they become a seed bank in themselves. They're so prolific. That's a rare, rare occurrence. I mean, there's people who claim that they do that, but there's not really. Yeah. Yeah. That would be the overall rundown on that off the top of my head. Like the main differences is goal oriented versus just strictly production. And yeah, I know I didn't go into ghost breeding yet. Yeah. I guess that that's like a natural next step. So I guess this is when the seed making itself or breeding, I guess is outsourced to someone else. Right. Yeah. So a lot of us have done this. I've done it. I see no problem with doing this for people. I like to be transparent about it, but a lot of people that hire me don't want me to be transparent about it. And that's fine too, because it's their prerogative, how they, how they move their seeds and sell their seeds isn't up to me. I just want to make. So just to clarify, Matt, you mean that you've, you've done some ghost seed making slash breeding for other people. Yeah, for other seed companies. Yeah. Yeah. And made seeds for them. They sold it under their name, you know, and let them rep that as their strain. And you don't really go around telling people that you made it because you got paid up front. And that's your goal is to just do that. And their goal is to be the seed maker. It's, it was a lot more common to see back in the day, like things like that. I don't really know what's going on today. Most of the ghost breeding quote unquote ghost breeding is done in Spain or in Columbia and people are buying their seeds bulk from there. And I spilled, I spilled this out in other episodes, but essentially like in the, in the mid 2000s, the way it worked was, you know, like Amsterdam would source out people were already making seeds in Spain. And they were making crosses of things like random northern lights. I remember that the plant just said NL in the, in the Buddha seeds room. Orange bud, white widow, AK 47, white Russian, white rhino, blueberry, hash plant. Like there's a lot of things like that, just normal generic things that you would have seen in like since these catalog back in the day is what they say they have in Spain. And they make crosses of all of these feminized crosses of all of them, every single which direction. And then the, the Dutch companies given a catalog and they'll look through it and they'll say, Oh, this is the closest to what my Cali missed was, or this is the closest to what the white rhino hybrid we had was, or this isn't even close to gelato, but fuck it is cheap. Let's put it in there. People won't know the difference. I love Barney's farm. You know, like their punch or whatever you can name any of their work work. Yeah, that's essentially how it worked back then. And they would go through it. They would try to find something that was similar, genetically similar, and that would be good enough. And, you know, 2005 on anybody that bought anything from Amsterdam from any Dutch company. That's what happened. They all outsource. That's it was done. So why it's a wrap Spanish is made Spain is making everything. Everything's now confused because everything's being re labeled and renamed, you know. Think of all the breeders post 2005 that we're using Dutch genetics to make their hybrids. So Matt, like from from the point of view of these companies or seed banks outsourcing the stuff or, you know, kind of picking from these catalogs, the incentives for them are quite clear. It's obviously going to be cheaper and financial fee. I'm curious, then this is a tangent for you when you were doing it, what was the incentive for you? Or like, why would you have gotten into it? Why does one get into that? So when I got into it is because I had small spaces and the places that wanted me to do these reversals had massive spaces. So even though they were choosing what I got to work with, like I got to see massive populations of done in these big reversals that I was doing. So my main motive was that just getting to see populations grown and traits and all of that didn't matter what it was. As long as I was getting to see massive populations because that was my goal is to see massive populations in how and what comes of it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So there were some interesting benefits for you. Yeah. And sometimes it would be friends, you know, like friends who had seed companies that were down at the time and couldn't make the seeds. So I just like fucking I'll put it out there and do it. You know, they knew that I'd do it and do it right. And yeah. So if any of you are still hiring, you know, I do, I do it. I don't know how many, I don't know how many seed companies are still in existence after this fallout. But yeah, I mean, that was a big thing for a long time making fem seeds for other dudes so they could sell them. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in a way, when you first, when one first hears about this, it might seem immediately like it's a scummy or kind of a scummy. Scummy thing, but not necessarily. Right. Like it can be super innocuous. Like that in that situation, when I do it, like I'm using the real clones to do it. So you're getting the product that you think you're going to get. It's not like, you know, like they outsourced it and you're getting Calumnist white rhino when you think you're getting wedding cake. You know what I mean? Like you're actually getting what you're supposed to be getting. The only transparency that's not there usually is who made it. And most of these guys that I did this for don't even really communicate with the public to say that they made it or didn't make it. It's just assumed it's inferred because they're such big companies. They don't really interact, you know, so. Okay. So that's an important distinction to make as well that even within this endeavor of ghost breeding or outsourcing seed making that there's still a difference as it as it as there is with actual breeding between the people who are using the real materials and know what they're doing versus the people who don't. Yeah. And there's one of the things I definitely want to put out there too is that like Spaniards got shit on a lot because they were the ones making the seeds that the Dutch were selling. But the Spaniards did really good work. Like I think they were very confident. The guys who were making the bulk seeds over there were very confident. There were some of the first pioneers doing massive, massive fem reversals over in Spain. So I have a lot of respect for those dudes a lot. And it's just unfortunate how it played out because like in Spain it was just a bunch of dudes with like no ego at all that wanted to make seeds. And that's it. They just wanted to make seeds and they didn't care about a name. They didn't care about getting famous at all. Yeah. And the honest. Go ahead. The honest was I guess more on the people using these seeds and selling these seeds on and what how they represented them. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean if there's no transparency it makes it kind of hard. Right. Like you think that barn there's a guy named Barney at Barney's farm doing all this killer breeding. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Barney and Burner. Yeah. Barney and Burner. There is no Barney. I wonder who Barney is. He doesn't even exist. There's a guy named Gary somewhere. Yeah. Okay. That's cool. I think actually those were a couple of good insights that you kind of have talked about these things before but maybe not in that much depth. So that's cool. Those are cool anecdotes. Yeah. Go sprittings. It's a tricky thing because like I said, yeah, it's political. You know, and the weird thing was that I've got accused of like buying bulk seeds from Spain and selling them. And for a company to have to do that, like you have to be a pretty wealthy company moving a lot of seeds to make that viable method for doing it because you're buying them in bulk. So you spend like 20 grand. I don't have 20 grand. Like to be buying bulk seeds. Like, you know, so just even financially and economically would never make sense for me to outsource because I'm not that big, you know, like, yeah, like there's no reason to outsource the kilowatt hours in Spain versus the U.S. was and the land prices in rent was why a lot of people chose why Spain ended up being the place to do all this. The permissiveness because it was wasn't super permitted, but it wasn't super attacked by the local police there. And the kilowatt hour and the space is why and it's also why Columbia opened up to and why Columbia is starting to produce a massive amount of these seeds down there for the breeders up here. The seed makers like the compounds or whatever of the world. Another tangent. And I mentioned to you that just before we started recording that I watched the burner video visiting Thailand to open the cookie store there. But I also wonder next what Thailand is going to, you know, what kind of platform or possibilities Thailand is going to introduce. So I'm going to say something very very it might hurt a lot of people's feelings. It might be a little spicy. But I saw the worst of California. Go to the world, go and be the worst in Colorado. And then they went to Michigan, the same people. And then they went to Oklahoma. And now they're all in Thailand. Like it's just like in this downward slide of failure and refuse all going to Thailand. There's good dudes there too. Like they're good dudes, but like a lot of bad dudes went a lot of bad dudes that just rip people off along the way in all these states all ended up there. So I'm very interested to see how that plays out because like they went there because they think it's fucking a lot less and then get away with some crazy shit, you know, but yeah, I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know if they know what they're in for either. Maybe either later in the year or even 2024, we can try and wrangle a Thailand update from someone who's already there. I have a buddy there. I have a buddy there right now. Yeah, definitely. That would be really interesting. It's like a counterpoint. To watch his journey. It's rough, dude. Like when he first got over there. I'm talking about HPK. We interviewed him right before he moved. And just watching his journey on Facebook, just like even adapting to the food and water was brutal to watch. He just got so fucked up by that place, you know, like there's so many things that I wouldn't even think about when thinking about moving to Thailand to grow. Like just basic food survival stuff that our American stomachs can't take, you know, things like that. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think this could be an interesting episode. So maybe may not discuss this later. Yeah. Okay. Well, coming back to squirrel's question and I was there anything else you wanted to say on ghost breeding met before we moved on to the second part? Just that it's more prolific than most people know. Like, you know, like it's hard to not name names. Because people really think these people make their seeds, but like the biggest sellers, the people who make the most money in seeds, the compounds, the seed junkies, you know, name a few names. They don't make their seeds. They're not breeders. They have other people make them at these facilities that are fucking trash. You know, like, and they don't give a shit who's making the seeds. They just need seed to put in a, in a shell, the cell. As long as there's a physical seed there, they're good because they don't give a fuck what happens to it afterwards as everybody saw it with the candy rainings and cookies, you know, like, nobody cares. But yeah, that's the majority of what people have in their collections was made. Ghostbred was ghostbred or made in Spain or Colombia. And they just have no clue. Yeah. And so I guess, like, like you were implying earlier, ghost breeding in and of itself isn't a good or bad thing. It's a context. And in some contexts, it's perfectly innocuous. And in other contexts, it's perfectly insidious. Insidious. It's as insidious as you can imagine in some context. But yeah. Yeah. It's very mild. It's just a matter of, well, you know, at least you give what you got. Yeah. It seems it's almost the best you can hope for and you want it sad. Oh, well, at least you got what you fucking paid for. I mean, maybe, you know, maybe it wasn't the dude whose face was on that picture smiling at you, but at least you got what you paid for. And that's like, that's sad. That's the best we can hope for, really. Like, it's hard to hope for a breeder who will, like, write you back and be like, okay, well, if you're interested in this line, you know, like, here's some traits and blah, blah, blah. That doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's because people don't understand it's not because they're busy. People just don't know how to answer the questions. They don't have answers to the questions that you're asking if it's about bringing stuff. And that's a reality. Like, it sucks to say and people are probably in the epist that I said it, but it's a reality. It really is. Yeah. So it's a great question because it, it sums up quite a bit. It does. The industry. I think it's one of the most important topics to probably recover every now and then just because there's so many new people coming in that don't know that big, massive part. And when it was going on during the mid-2000s, I was jumping up, screaming, stomping my feet, fucking screaming it from the rafters. And that's when I was getting banned from every forum back then. It wasn't something that everybody knew. It was never, it was never an open secret back then even. Like it just wasn't talked about and you weren't allowed to talk about it. Like, you know, it's just, yeah. Maybe, Matt, every year or every six months there are certain topics that are worth revisiting. Yeah. I think that's a good, good call. We can read. Okay. It's funny. I just up the top of my head, right? Get a Europe, Europe update. We found to get a Thailand update. It'll be fun for you to do reflection on the American industry. You know what I really want to do too is a prediction episode each year. Predicting what's going to happen the next year. Sounds fun as well. What companies will do what? What companies will still be around? Yeah. I think that'll be fun. Yeah. A little spicy. Okay. Okay. So, Squirrel's second question, which is related, also has to do with some of the politics and complexities of, you know, running these companies. Sure. And he wants to know about the legacy of breeders or seed makers who have died and some of the messes or complications around that. Like, do you have any, you know, anecdotes? Yeah. So, I think like the main one that most people think of when it comes to messes after people pass would probably be Gorilla Glue. Josie and Lone, I don't want to use the real name. Everybody knows their names, but Josie and Lone are the people responsible for Gorilla Glue. And near the end, they had tried to do a legal company and there was a lot of like cease and desist sent out saying you can't use Gorilla Glue for clone, which is a clone that was passed to everyone and anybody that was using it, they were sending cease and desist to. They didn't do it to me because we were friends, but it wasn't even necessarily Josie and Lone that were doing it. They had hired some legal stuff and, you know, they had a friend named Kat who's super nice. I got along with Kat real well. Nice person. And she ended up being who had Gorilla Glue after they both passed. And yeah, it was just wild. It was different. It was political. I know I sat on my Gorilla Glue for hybrids because me and Josie were going to release it as a collab. And then after we passed, there was some lawsuits going on with the company. I'm like, oh, this, I'm not dealing with this shit. You don't get revved up in some lawsuit. So I just sat on him forever. You know, I know CSI like, I won't even, he released Gorilla Glue in collaboration with Josie and made sure that his family is still getting money for it too, which I think is so commendable. There's all different ways it's done. And it's just, you know, it really depends up to the person how they handle it. But it's, it's also how the community reacts, I think. That is to say, like, you can't really ask these breeders that are passed away, you know, like if you can use their work, right. And like a lot of times, you know, sons pop up like we saw with Bob, he actually had a real son. And then we had fake sons pop up after they died pretending to sell his gear. This has happened so many times after people pass. It happened with Zochi when he passed someone was claiming to be him selling his seeds, goat and monkey. It's horrible. It's one of the most disgusting horrible things I've seen. And it's more a recent trend when people die for someone to pop up, pretend to be their son and sell their seeds. But yeah, it's been happening a lot. That's one weird segment of this question. As far as, like, for me, using Lone Star's blue bonnet, specifically, because me and Lone Star weren't tight. We weren't enemies by any stretch of the magic. We never argued or anything, but we weren't tight. Like we weren't friends. And I wasn't close with his friends that are still around. So approaching the blue bonnet stuff was kind of weird for me. And it still is to this day because, like, I want to make sure that he gets as much respect as possible because it was beautiful work that made all of the blueberry stuff that I do that is so super blueberry. He did all of the work that made all that possible. And, you know, like when I'm looking at my posts, people want to give me credit and the whole time I'm like, oh, but I didn't really do much, you know, but people want to give me credit and I don't know how his friends feel about that or it's complex. It is so complex. But in the end, like I just try to think about it from my own perspective. Like if I'm gone and the stuff that I had anything to do with is still passing on and people are still saying my name, then that's magic. That's the only way you still live, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's where I look at it. But some of the people may look at it different, you know. Yeah. People sue each other over this shit. So. Yeah. Did you want to mention TGA or talk to speak to TGA? Oh, I mean, sure. Yeah. I mean, that was a hard one. You know, he's even hard to talk about after passing. Like let alone, not even talking about using his genetics, just speaking about it. Because of all the things that happened right, like right before, the last two years, got pretty wild and Harry and humans were human, especially when they find out they're no longer living. Some will make amends with people and some will live their life to the fullest that they see fit, you know, and that's kind of what happened there. Mostly what I see though in cannabis is people being sanctified after they pass. Yeah. Maybe unjustly sanctified in many ways. And if you notice, and like they're given sainthood. Yeah. Yeah. I see that a lot. Like, oh, this guy, he was such a fucking amazing breeder, collector. He was legit and knew his shit. It's like, what? When he was alive, he was one of the biggest, you know, like not even talking to the sub, but just, there's a lot of this. There's a lot because, I mean, people are complex and not everybody's a good human their whole life. And some people are really bad humans. Most of their life. But when they die in cannabis for some reason, they get sainthood. Though I think some people may not see that same fate, you know, just kind of depends who you are. Even people who are alive get that sainthood. They may not deserve it. Yeah. That's very true. That is very true. A lot of sainthood going on. Yeah. Don't, as we always say, you know, be very wary of having heroes. Kick over the statues. So I say, no, don't worship any statues. Don't have any pedestals because breeders are all fuck ups. Like most of us are ex junkies too. Like whether they admitted or not, like most of us have shady paths. So a bunch of fuck ups, there's nothing to look up to. That's for damn sure. On a positive note, it is worth kind of reiterating what you said before, which is that, you know, one of the least, I think, or one of the best things you could do is just continue to gesture towards the people whose work your work depends on, like in general, whether they're dead or alive. Exactly. Yeah. Always give thanks and just not even just give thanks, but just be thankful in general. Like, have that in your heart. Like, don't just say it. Like, have it in your heart and carry it with you, like in your projects, like with the Lone Star stuff. Like, I try to think about that all the time. Like, I don't let that slip from the picture, you know, I don't get you go with it because it's not, you know what I mean? Like, just have it in your heart. Carry that with you. Don't just say it. Do it. Yeah. And I think for us at the Syndicate, it's clearly like a core value to acknowledge that we are just one point on like a long line of points, you know, through running through time and that like, we wouldn't be here without a lot. A lot of a lot of my focus has been like trying to find things that other breeders had already made years ago that's been lost. So it's like, you know, like things are made a long time ago that were so good that we're still digging them up. Like someone was doing it right back then. So good that way better than what we have now even, you know, so yeah. Kind of a tangent. No, it's cool. I think it's, you know, I think occasionally it's nice to have a bit of like philosophical, you know, ethical reflection on these things. So I think breeding breeding ethics is a one that I used to get asked a lot on the life eats. You know about breeding ethics. How do you know if it's okay? You ask a breeder. You know, that's a, I mean, it's a hard one to do because so many people have different answers. People go online and they see breeders have different reactions to people using their stuff. Like I almost like, I think it's silly when people ask me if they can use my stuff from stuff that I bought for me, you know, like, I know they're doing that of respect, but like for me, like if you bought a pack of seeds, it's yours. Whatever hell you want with it. I don't care who's it is, you know, like we put it out there. It's there to be put out. And if you use it, that's that is a name getting carried on. Like if you use it, there's nothing more like to me special than seeing someone that found something so unique and special. They wanted to bring it into something and make it there. That to me is the ultimate thing for a breeder. So when people get mad, when people like use males from their line or use a female from their line or whatever and want to kick back to me, it blows my mind is that the the respect is already been paid there by them wanting to use it. Maybe that should be another recurring episode every year or so. Yeah, probably do. Like yeah, ethics and morals in 2023 and then yeah, they definitely change over the years. I'll tell you what, they have changed. It might be a good thing to revisit. Like the name game changed completely. The name game, the name game, that used to be one of the most deadly serious games we played in breeding is when we were picking names, making sure we didn't step on any fucking toes. And at one point it was pretty. There were still names out there you could use that hadn't been reused if they weren't super obvious, you know, you could have uniqueness in your name still. But, you know, if you weren't too creative, it was very easy to step on toes and it wasn't like it is today where people are like whatever, you know, because there's so many names you can't avoid but you're using names now. Back then, like people took that very serious and would like message you and people would want your head, like you better change that now or else, you know. Yeah, so yeah, that's another thing that's definitely changed. It is our policy today is were you here before me? Okay, if not, kick rocks, kid. That's the way I look at it. Are you here before me? You don't get to choose the name. You don't get to keep the name. We've got to start somewhere, you know. Yeah, okay. Well, slight change of pace. We come back to a much more practical set of questions, I think. Okay. Simple one, I think from Freezeblade. When do you think is the best time to take clones or to take cuttings off plants? It depends. By it depends, any number of factors. Is it a seedling mom? Is it a clone mom? If it's a seedling mom, is it going to fuck up the whole structure of the plant if I take the clones or am I not really worried about that? There's many reasons that I go into when I'm taking clones or things that I take into account. Is this going to be something that I'm flowering out? Taking clones in a specific spot from the plant to make it have a specific structure when it's flowering? That's a big part of what part of the plant's clones I'm taking, how many I take, the shape of it, that all goes into it. Usually for me, I wait until it's about two to three feet tall before I start making clones. Some people do it at the first two nodes. Once there's leaf material to take and there's a node, bam, take it. Anything. In that context, do you see have you experienced or observed maturity playing a very big role in the success of rooting? Or not necessarily? Nothing that I could, not good anecdotes that I could give, but I'm sure there is. Hormonally, a plant changes over time, so I'm sure there is. What I'm talking about there, they're already so big at that point in their maturity as much. When I run my plants, I usually run veg at 24 hours almost always. I can't think of a situation where I've been running anything less than 24 hours in veg. It's constant, constantly on. The reason I do that is because I also do a lot of re-veging. In saying that, my plants grow pretty fast in veg because it lights around 24 hours. Two or three feet, there's no heavy pre-flowering going on. What do you think of people taking cuttings in the flowering stretch? I know that's quite common slash popular as well, I guess because you get so much extra vegetative growth often that you have to get rid of anyway. What do you think of pulling cuttings at that point? What point are you talking about later in flower or early in flower? During the flowering stretch, first few weeks. That's great. A lot of times they'll have stems that'll root better too. I don't know why, but they have woodier stems and for some reason I have better luck with woodier stems like that or harder stems. And hormonally I think for whatever reason they're more able to root at that stage hormonally because they do root faster. I found that out just by process of thinking I had something backed up and clones backed up going to flower something starting in flower and realizing oh shit I don't have any more clones of this and then having to take clones that way that's when I started realizing that there was kind of a difference between how fast they would root how well they would root and the type of roots they gave off even, you know what I mean? I run into that just by happenstance but it is effective. When you take cuttings at that point do you have to deal with re-veging or not really? It just depends sometimes but usually it's not a very super long re-vege if anything it's a weed or two max. But if you get it at the right time not usually it'll revert pretty quick. Cool, nice. That was good juicy bit of info. I love re-veging. I love it. It makes me sad when people say that they don't do it. I don't know why. To me it's so easy to do and I don't have a lot of talents in life even when it comes to growing I don't have a lot of talents when it comes to growing that I'm better at this than anyone else or better at that than anyone else but I'm really good at re-veging and I'm really good at popping seeds there's a few things that I can do exceptionally well and re-veging to me it's something I can teach anyone at any time as long as you follow a few simple fucking rules as long as you can put your lights on 24 hours guaranteed but a lot of people do have trouble with it and I don't understand it and I don't know it's just one of those things I've never gotten why people have trouble with re-veging awesome technicians you have to be very patient. To me the main costs of re-veging would be space and time and money but the 24 hour a lot of people don't want to do that because it's like doubling your flower cycle of money it can get more expensive that extra 6 hours of light a night yeah okay that was a good one we can move on to Degas question and I think you had a sense of what he's asking here he's not entirely clear he says so what he's talking about I think like using the mail and breeding using the mail as basically a stud using all of his traits under the females and yeah I mean you can do it you can do it with a female or with a male it doesn't really matter there's nothing set with like all males bring this trait all females breed this way it is so variable down to the plant and environment on what traits are passed that like it's a very hard question to answer but yes you can absolutely with the bonnet stuff that's actually what I did was bring towards the mail which you would actually consider a stud because I wanted everything to be blueberry that he touched and historically it's been done a lot this is a very common passion yes and no yes in the way of like skunk one was used as a male a lot and L1 was used as a male a lot by Neville but overall there's been a lot of seed with males there's not been a lot of breeding done with a male for trait selection like that true yeah good distinction okay that's a good question anything else on that I think that's good stone root what are your thoughts on convergent evolution through breeding starting with the different cultivars by ending up at the same place through a series of generations he says similar to crabs in the ocean have you experienced this I mean okay one thing I'll say though right away is that crabs in the ocean were not bred they evolved and I know what he means he means that like throughout the different eras of creatures on the planet quite a few different species I don't know if I have the right taxonomy here but quite a few different species have kind of converged on a similar morphology a very crab-like morphology throughout time I don't know if that is conflatable with breeding because breeding is actually active because he said two different cultivars but that would mean they were both cannabis I think the crab thing was meant to be an analogy I'm just kind of explaining why the analogy doesn't really make I know but like with this question he said two different cultivars he just said with different he just said with different cultivars so not even necessarily cannabis is he talking about just two different cannabis? yeah yeah sorry he does mean cannabis I'm assuming so like I was saying to you before the recording the most obvious thing that comes to mind that it's not breeding is what happens when you let you just let like you know maybe drug type cannabis go wild right? you can watch it regress very quickly to him in a few generations but I don't know if this makes sense if you're talking about it from a breeding perspective I mean the only thing I can think of from a breeding perspective that even remotely comes close to this is someone currently crossing hops and cannabis cannabis sativa two different kind of semi-related plants and finding a way to interbreed them but it's not done evolutionarily it's not done naturally it was done through breeding like what he's talking about takes thousands and thousands and thousands of years you know like evolution it's done through evolution not through humanity yeah unless we're talking about major major like GMO type stuff advanced science techniques you know and I wouldn't know anything about that no I think you make a really good point like you can't really have evolution and breeding in the same like sentence they don't work like they don't yeah practical yeah okay there you go nice and loud move on to screwston scarecrow's question okay this is an interesting one so he says we man also have talked about growing for seed versus growing for flower production but what about the difference between having a what he calls a regular veg setup versus a setup that's more for preservation I guess you know keeping moms how different are those setups or can they be how different can they be from seed making to keeping moms no I think he means like production like what are the differences between a setup that you're using just to like grow plants to grow plants for I guess for cropping versus a setup that's just for keeping stuff okay so if I were doing just cropping I would probably be doing a lot in tables a ton if I'm keeping moms you can't really keep moms in tables I mean maybe you can I don't know anybody who does but usually like why I mean because they get so big you know you really have those big monster moms in tables especially if you're keeping them around a long time it also depends people like to do clone of their mom clone of their mom clone of the mom keep it small constantly clone of the mom clone of the mom it's a lot of work you're that way and keep it small and that's the way you could do it in tables technically you could also use tables and so there's not really any there's workarounds for every situation but ideally like if I'm if I have moms I have a whole room dedicated to that just moms in pots and containers in cocoa and then if I'm running production whether it's usually if I'm running production for me I do it all in the same pots and stuff like that but it's because I rent and if I owned a place I would be doing all fucking tables all day all day long so I guess the only difference would be how you keep the moms longer in a mom room I don't really know I think like you were saying earlier it depends depends on what constraints you have like if you don't have a lot of space then you might have to resort to what you were pointing out before what I call like serial cloning where you don't actually have a mom that you're constantly just taking clones off you have like a chain you're cloning and then taking a clone off that clone and doing that successively through time I did that for years man yellow cup moms bonsai moms which is horrible like I didn't understand that I was like super stunting shit then now I'm going to take that and breed with this super stunted plant because I made a bonsai mom out of it I didn't understand what I was doing back then and I don't know the ramifications that has for the future of what I made back then with that and yeah I was just thinking about that yeah stunted moms and recycled clones that's actually a really big question I think we still don't really have great answers for which is yeah like you say let's say you have a mom and then you've kind of had to you've been forced to stress slash traumatize it in various ways to keep it small what kind of impact that does have on clones you take off it later right or even the seeds that you make with it epigenetically I don't know what happens there yeah so maybe this is something if anyone in the community has an idea or has seen any theory around this like definitely let us know Kamiro if you want just let me know yeah I guess the other side of this in terms of setup is like I can think of things like basic things that you probably probably have already thought through like what kinds of are the differences in like say light intensity the feeding I know you've covered a bit of that yeah feeding definitely light intensity here's a weird one it's on the topic but kind of a tangent a lot of us are getting like a lot of us I mean like the oldest ones of us are just getting used to LEDs now or just getting to try them for the first time and it is so fucking different like how the plants eat it's so massively different yeah I mean there are a lot of things to take into account too just from light intensities on feed and all that shit not just for breeding but for anything yeah and that's I'm someone who's only ever had LEDs you know yeah see that's a trip for me like I started on magnetic ballast and T5s and shit like that and like I still have T5s that I would use because I'm fucking old like I think that's a legit technology I don't know I've never moved on to LEDs obviously because I'm broken cheap but if anybody wants to be an LED sponsor get ahold of me there you go gotta use this shit absolutely okay anything else about the differences between you know keeping plants for an archive versus keeping plants for production any changes in your obviously there's a different mindset obviously it's a different strategy okay we'll have nothing else there we go all right anything else we can move on to south coast canis question random one but does a male have different traits as a okay I guess what he's asking here is how differently can a male plant but I think it doesn't perhaps be just about a male how differently can a plant express when seed grown versus like you know as a cutting vastly different vastly different it's why I always say I'm really serious about it about like a line and hunting through it do run at all as seeds flower them and then run it as clones before you toss them because sometimes that change might be so drastic that the turps change so far that it you might have already tossed a keeper but you haven't run it the second time can you break this down a little bit Matt because I know that like in the past whatever I remember you saying like I know for example that there's a lot of intersex expressions change a lot but now you're actually saying that even turf expressions might be different scent, internode spacing there's so many different hormones packed in that seedling mom which is why it grows so different and as it ages as you take clones of that those hormones start to wear out and you get to see a totally different plant which grows totally different as a clone different root system everything another thing that for me anyway there's no main tap root there's no main tap root on a clone there's not like that big hard main tap root like a seedling gets this is another one where I think there probably is quite a lot of science underneath and if anyone can chip in on this topic because it is quite an interesting and big one okay was there anything else in terms of differences that you could think of just beyond the fact that there are going to be potentially pretty major ones any anecdotes in particular Matt that you can think of I mean it's just something that we see every single time like every single time it's going to change from seedling and not all of them change drastically some are real minor changes just leaf shape with sometimes you just see that or a little bit stockier, a little bit longer but sometimes it can be worlds apart that bubblegum clone of the Nordmites V was so pink bubblegum when we first got it we were mind blown but as a clone about third generation in it's a lot less pink bubblegummy lot less one of those examples yeah this is a fascinating topic I think a lot of complexity here and it is very sciencey we've got a couple of questions from In The Wind and I think generally what I get from In The Wind's questions here is he's taken into account some of the theory that we've explained in the previous episodes and on some of the complexities of breeding like we pointed out there are linked traits that are linked or grouped together for whatever reason and the inverse of that we talked about I think you could even have multiple genes controlling a single trait and so for me the vibe I get from him is like okay that sounds like breeding is impossible intentional breeding is impossible in conditions and obviously it's true that it's extremely difficult to make predictable but okay we'll get into his first one which is how much of our assessment of linked traits and true breeding traits can actually be observed in like can actually be observed full stop that's kind of what I see in this question he says how much of it is like visual and can be perceived through effect all of its visual except for effect yeah trying to think am I correct in saying that I think so like most of the traits that we breed for are visual observable yeah observable is better consent is not observable in some way except for the high that's always going to be variable for every single person every single different time trying to explain this to the like normal person who goes into a collective there's so mindset on thing ooh do I need to see the t-bay and to cut our hybrid you know like that's where their mindset's at whereas in my mindset I'm at I wonder if this bud from this plant is going to affect me the same way it did last night when I was in a different mood because in reality that's where we should be at yeah like it's that variable yeah so trying to quantify high and breeding for high very hard very hard because you never know if the next person's going to have the same high or the same reaction and you don't know that if you're going to have the same higher reaction the next time you smoke it yeah so in some sense it can be two variable to account for yeah but there are variables we can account for and breed for yeah so this is one of those questions where like there isn't a straightforward answer like it depends on what traits you are interested in and of course within the tools that you have like if all you have are your observations then obviously you can only you can only depend on what you observe to make your decisions like there's no magic shortcut to that if you don't have access to other kinds of testing exactly and this is where knowing your baselines having experience running out the baselines going through populations in the baselines for baselines see our previous episodes recent episodes having that experience will help you to make those selections and see those traits that you're looking for and know okay well it breeds about this common in this line it's about that common so hopefully I'll see it in this you know roughly this percentage in this population of this hybrid etc you know the more you know the lines you're working with or clones you're working with the more educated you can be about making those distinctions and projections yeah and I think we did talk about this as well which is that sometimes you do have to go forward and then go backwards because you just don't have any other way of getting more information so it's literally you have to run the progeny and not everything's a hit you know that's what it is so his second question is I think we've more or less covered it but I'll sound it out anyway so he said how reliable is a visual observable slash like smoke test in the search for unique expressions and then kind of goes into like is it possible for something to not express the trait in its first expression I guess he means in the first generation and then for that trait to appear in successive generations obviously yes right yeah very much so yeah how recessives work you know they pop up in the f3s you'll never see even the f1s or in that first generation crush I should say that's that's it that's a part of it you know it's a major thing and again I perceive underlying this question his real question is how can I predict this and it's like it's the same answer it's like either you have very good information and previous experience on how what you're holding does pass and breed or you're going to have to actually do some work test the progeny and maybe do another generation if that's what you're looking you know if you're trying to trace something down generations you just have you can't avoid actually doing it yeah essentially you know in to this point like I would rather see someone pop 100 seeds in a very small space and flower them small to get an idea of the population then run two or three plants really big to try to get an idea of what a clone's like you know like if people are wondering like which would be better which would be more ideal which would give them the most information the smaller plants would give you the most information and that would be ideal small plants can be just as terpy and potent as anything else and if we're going for assessing and learning about a plant you know as long as it has enough bud to get you a few fucking bowls so you can get a pretty good idea if it's even a high you enjoy you personally enjoy yeah I mean just flower them out little clones little seedlings it's easy to do yeah yeah so I guess my paraphrase for that is whenever you are looking for stuff you face significant odds and the only strategy that's viable is to go with numbers numbers always yeah okay we can move on NJGrowGuy is asking a question that I think you know is always the question in a way what is the best way to go about extending stock on a pack of seeds so I have a 12 pack and want to make more so I can grow them out again would you just OP that pack or would you go and select um you know maybe do one to one with like your favorite from the pack so in this case you know what I'd say I would say if you have like 12 seeds I'd run them all I'd keep clones of each just in case now if it's already an open pollination there might not be a need to do a success of open pollination unless it's solely for preservation and like you feel like the last person probably didn't do that good of a job like if someone just did it from five seeds I would probably reopen it again just you know just because to bring out more examples but yeah I don't know open pollinations are great you know if this is solely for preservation do open pollinations but there's some lines where if like someone just didn't open pollination and it won't kill you to just do little selections from it to make the seeds you would be doing directional breeding in a sense and start that direction narrowing but I mean if it's plants that you like as opposed to just random and you've already run them then yeah that makes sense yeah I think again this is one of those like it depends and it comes down to your constraints like I imagine the risk with OP is that I think we did address this in the theory episode as well is that it's easy to lose things and it's not to say that you've lost them forever but that's why I say it comes down to your constraints like you have plenty of time in the future and you know you're going to have lots of time then maybe an OP is okay but yeah exactly if you're like if you're doing an OP strictly so you can do a big ass pop this one line that makes sense to me but if you're just OP in it just to pop three seeds that doesn't make any sense yeah I think that's a good summary statement yeah okay I've selected a stable female from an intersex prone line and I'll cross it to a male from a stable line in your experience despite choosing a stable individual how often do you think the intersex traits from the female side get passed into the progeny it depends again because we don't know if that trait is a late trait we don't know much about that trait like for this particular example typically typically generally speaking though if you're breeding away from intersex traits let's say this line is very very arm prone and you find a male from a line that's just super stable sexually usually you're doing a great service to the line if your end goal is to have no intersex traits that's what you want to do so that's the best method for it if that's the trait you're trying to suppress that's how you would do it yeah Squirrel again is asking let me see so I think his question is we often address traits such as the most common ones like scent color color and he's wondering like and we have talked a bit about this before but do you have much experience with people who have bred for bud structure for smoking specifically no not that I know of but I mean maybe someone does out there that's an actual breeder but I don't know of it and I haven't had that discussion with anyone however I've talked about it because I hate a fucking hate with a passion super dense bud I like to break up my preference has always been to break it up by hand really easy not thumb it up super bad but I don't know how to handle bud but I like to break it up by hand and pretty much nowadays I have to use a grinder every single time because this stuff is so dense that it's pointless to try to break it apart like that and I don't like that dense and a lot of customers don't eat it because it's usually mold prone massively mold prone stuff like that so yeah I was going to say that even if people in their work haven't been explicitly looking for flower structure relative to smoking people certainly pay attention to how prone flowers are to bud rot this is true so that is often the kind of corresponding consideration it definitely is especially for the grower side more density means more mold so I mean that's why I just I never could believe that cookies blew up like it did not only was it a smaller the density just made it a mold nightmare for people so yeah it just blows my mind I have a question here for you Matt which you know the Indiana bubblegum cut is often cited for being really mold resistant yeah do you in your opinion like is it partly the structure of the flower that contributes to that or is it other the other qualities you think it's pretty dense it's not as dense as like the cookies but it's very dense, afghani type yeah it's just one of those things where the genetics it's just very mold resistant it's weird so it's an example where it wasn't it's not necessarily because of the flower structure that is it's mold resistant like a lot of the urn beer stuff the swiss sativa strawberry stuff also tends to be mold resistant and I don't like early on I was trying to figure out if it was tying to it's scent like whatever the oils are and it's glands you know whatever I never figured it out but the strawberry stuff is extremely mold resistant as well interesting interesting yeah because I guess a paraphrase of that is the other obvious way something can be mold resistant is presumably through its cannabinoid like balance and all that yep okay um that might actually be the end of our questions today Matt and while we are at the end of the questions I know that you wanted to talk about something else yeah which one should I talk about first so did you want to talk about your recent experience with cereal milk and tell us what that is I'll tell you about my experience the rundown on it so I wanted to check out some of these new buds because I had not tried cereal milk I had not tried jealousy it was a bunch I hadn't tried from a lot of the hype stuff not just cookie fam stuff but in general I was probably speaking a lot of newer stuff I haven't tried and people ask me a lot about it and my normal comment is cookies crossed to cookies probably trash in my opinion that's usually what you get anyway I got some and I probably should have taken pictures but I figured it's cereal milk I'm probably not going to enjoy it I was that confident that I would not enjoy this stuff I mean that is a bias not wanting to enjoy this not even wanting to but expecting to not enjoy it so the bud shows up I look at it it's very dense looks like cookies cool expected and the density is just exactly like I hate hard to break up and there's not a lot of scent to it I was expecting cereal milk to smell like the sweet end of OG that actually smells like cereal milk so like I thought the name would be apropos and some kind of extension of that because that exists in that line why would you not choose that expression to represent it but they didn't I think the name is a misnomer scent wise it was very bland Terps which also threw me off as far as like I'm expecting this to not be very good it's surplus in a sense I can't really even pin down the scent for you on what it smelled like it was just ashy maybe at best so I smoke it and about 30 minutes in I'm already expecting this thing to be over and I'm like I'm actually enjoying this I'm giggly this is a giggly weed and it was strong I had been dabbing diamonds in sauce all day and it broke through and it repeatedly did that until the very last bowl so because I spent so much time talking about cookies being the end of reading as far as the very end of where you can take that line I don't know much about snowman and wildlife obviously it's some kind of cookies cookies but I was impressed and I felt like even though I want so badly not to say that cereal milk is decent it was pretty fucking decent and I was surprised yeah so because I talked so much shit I had to actually man up and save it it was good I was surprised and I'm going to try to do that more often grab some stuff now and then from newer stuff and maybe do some reviews for people so that they can see it and get an idea of someone who's more used to old school strains my opinion would be on stuff like that if it's worth a shit because I was surprised I was hella surprised I could even run that clone it was that good and even though it was turpless like I wouldn't if I was an extractor I would never run that shit but the high from it was exceptional and I don't think the grower was anything special but I do think the high was exceptional so yeah I got to give them props where it's due they had someone make them a good line and I guess it's still consistent you know despite with what we say like despite of course us enjoying bashing on cookies for these good reasons there's obviously no reason why outliers within that you know can't appear and be good yeah it's just the part that blew my mind though was that it didn't look like anything different than a gelato you know nothing different than gelato 33 you'd look at it and be like oh gelato 33 you know the smell nothing to write home about at all in fact it was one of the more scentless words that I've ever had but for whatever reason and like that totally shits on that entourage effect type thing right like it totally it's the opposite of how it should have worked in my brain if that's real but it did it and it had a great fucking high like markedly great something that I don't see in cookies so yeah it's definitely that clone at least or the example maybe it wasn't even zero milk it came from a dispensary so God knows but I'm pretty sure it was and yeah it was impressive what are the implications of this statement Matt are you telling everyone that cookies is great and that I'm gonna blow burner that's what's gonna happen I'm gonna make me he's my puppy I guess I don't know what this means but it's uh what it means is that I need to start giving some of these new things to try and see if I can't break some of my own myths that I have in my head about them or I can't prove myself right but I'm determined now to at least like maybe once a week if I can afford it because it's expensive man legal weeds expensive the taxes on this unreal so yeah I would like to do that though once a week you know grab some grab one even one or two things and you know like another thing that I got that I like to talk about that blew my mind to mango haze diamonds and it didn't blow my mind for the reasons that you think it would it blew my mind that someone would grow like a 14 to 16 week plant and then extract it down to diamonds what the fuck was that who came up with that idea and why did I buy it but I did I did and there was no scent to it really it was just diamonds it didn't have an exceptional high at all there was nothing mango hazy about the high to me you know like if it was used if it was a real 14 16 week grown mango haze it was lost in the extraction but like I don't see any of these people running a 14 to 16 week haze and extracting it so it's probably ran at 8 extracted you know and at that point you just have THC diamonds and you could have that from anything and it wouldn't matter because there's no nothing else with it except just THC and that's a very very specific high you know yeah so yeah it was almost offensive that mango haze diamonds existed and I couldn't believe they existed and I even tried them in hopes that they would be something good that they just work diamonds yeah I can I can totally see why it's offensive it's like sacrilegious like it is why why like they could have done live resin sauce and I've been like fucking dope but they did diamonds like straight just THC diamonds what yeah in which case why would you use something like mango haze exactly why not you could use anything on earth to do that why would you use a 14 16 week plant yeah so that was my experience at the local collectives there was some a funny tale was that the place where I got the juicy fruit ty clone add juicy fruit on their menu again so I was like what they're going that again okay so I was going to order it but I didn't I don't remember why because I was buying everything else it was too damn expensive I just you know but they gave me a full free ounce of their juicy fruit and holy balls was the most moldy bullshit I've ever seen in my life I couldn't even identify if it was juicy fruit or not I'm like I had to be the dickhead that hits them up like hey bro that stuff you're giving out so moldy you might want to check that like it doesn't look good like even though it's free like you're repping your business you know yeah I won't say which business because they're nice and obviously they have my address I think that it's a great idea for you to periodically I don't know how often get some products to review I think that's that's fun and like for me you know I have no other connection to dispensary land yeah right so you can vicariously live through it I love it yeah that's that's that was my experience like um what else did I get I got some something called inferno og diamonds and that actually was like had some really loud loud og sense to it in the diamonds it was really fucking impressive like it was some of the best diamonds in the sauce I've ever had but it was just diamonds but I didn't really see any sauce but it was so loud og smelling is exactly like I would have wanted there was some Mars og the place was selling and that was just absolute garbage it was just really poorly grown like Athena grown you know just fucking smashed with nudes it was it was not good there's not like a really nice og sent to it like I like her that was gone it was just earthy really disappointing to be honest with you because I used to love Mars og that was a really good og and I can't really think of anything else that that jumped out that was of note I had a jack harrow live resin sauce that wasn't that good wasn't that special it wasn't even that terpenile which is weird for a jack harrow live resin sauce but it was in there it just wasn't as loud yeah overall really disappointing I don't really do collectives like I've never really done that it had been a long time and usually if I'd ever got anything from collective would be a clone if it's something that interested me let's see if it's it but yeah what a trip man what a trip the taxes the trash level of it some of it surprisingly though like I said something was fucking good I was surprised I was able to get there yeah I mean I guess you could say the same of like collectives and dispensaries as as you just did about as we did about cookies in general like obviously it doesn't mean that like they're all bad everything's bad it's just sure what the likelihood is and there's obviously still a chance that you can get some some good products what's funny is some of my friends are the people growing weed for cookies that goes in those mylar like yeah some of it's good so well I don't know man is this a good point to like do a little bit of an outro like subscribers yeah yeah yeah exactly that's what I mean like maybe this is where we talk about well we've decided that this is the end of this season this episode and then the series end of everything bye we're done we're out oh oh season oh yeah that's right season now we've covered everything man there's nothing else to say about anything so I mean that's it for us so one thing I didn't want to point out is that we just hit 7000 subs which is pretty cool yeah it's I'll tell you why I'm proud of it one of the reasons is that I occasionally go and look at other cannabis channels especially ones that I really hate and one thing I've noticed that I think is so absurd but also so unsurprising is that some of these channels you go and then you see they've got like 100 or like 200 thousand subs but then you go and look at their the actual views that they get on their videos and it's like a couple of thousand every video and so a lot of these channels don't have real subscribers or if they do they're a tiny portion of the numbers that they claim and from what I've loved seeing from our data, our analytics is that our subscriber base is real because a good portion of people show up every week and so not only have we grown organically we actually have a proper regular following and I think that is something that you can't take for granted you know I don't think that this I'm not trying to like be too self-deprecating or anything but you know what we the kinds of information that we're interested in are very niche and so we may not get or may not even want to have 100,000 subs but to be able to develop a proper close following with regular people showing up I think that's very special in content land. I never thought it would happen for cannabis genetics because it is so niche it takes certain type of personalities to be this into learning about what you're smoking why it's affecting you the way it does and like keeping track like the whole provenance of everything just trying to get to the bottom of it that's weird, that's super fucking weird there's not a lot of weirdos like us out there so every time that I see like our subscriber count growing it tells me there's more people that are fascinated by this topic and deeply fascinated by it and that blows my fucking mind just watching the forums over the years just a few hundred people interacting on each one and that was the best you'd get and a lot of them are really mean and weren't there for good reasons and these are all like our community is amazing absolutely amazing, if I died tomorrow it would run itself and that's what's so fucking cool I absolutely love it I feel like that's possibly an exaggeration I don't know if you could die tomorrow but we'll see I mean hopefully we won't see sorry, oh my god I'm calling a hit on Matt yeah it's good from New Zealand a lot from New Zealand what was I going to say I think my paraphrase of what Matt just said though is that what makes me happy is that there are people who are interested in finding out the truth as much of the truth as they can because that's what we're into and it is it is heartwarming to see it is encouraging to see the other side of I think ending the season on this note we covered the whole breeding series I think that was really fun it was really comprehensive I found myself actually quite exhausted afterwards what other episodes we could do but in saying that I think Matt and I have some good ideas for the next season we are also toying with trying out some new kinds of content I don't know if it will actually come to fruition but we joked at least about maybe doing reaction videos to strain hunters like burners funny documentaries maybe and I'm also thinking about watching UFO videos and getting really fucked up and commenting on them as reaction videos don't you already kind of do that I don't record it I don't let people watch me do stupid shit and talk over UFO videos it might be funny I say stupid shit when I'm still on but yeah we've definitely got a few guests in mind a couple of whom we've actually lined up and a few more of whom we still need to line up but still plenty more good stuff to come you know what I love that this season thousand fold got to figure out how hard it is to run the show behind the scenes get people to communicate it's not as easy it sucks the funny thing is that I kind of look back on a week and count the hours and be like oh it's not that much but I think why it feels kind of like it stretches throughout the week is because at the start of the week we have to decide what we're doing then we have to try to coordinate like the planning and recording of it and then of course it actually gets published later in the week it's actually kind of like an endless cycle and I'm like now that I've seen I'm like forcing Matt into more and more like organization being like no we need to start like scheduling things in advance I'm going to make a list like a schedule of episodes that we can cover he has no idea I'm the opposite of schedule and organization it's going to be great it's going to be great hey it's worked I'll put it this way Matt's put up with like Matt's kind of been really open to like what I've had to bring so far oh yeah that's good shit I'm stoked I think everybody all the feedback has been great for this season people really enjoyed the content they've enjoyed I think a lot of people really enjoyed being able to have some like from point A to point B to point C to point D as opposed to trying to look it through my ADHD brain because everything that I produce is very spastic if it's just left up to me to bring it to B it's just how I do things it's just random thoughts at all times so I think people really have enjoyed being able to like follow along and actually follow along so yeah looking forward to the next season too dude absolutely me too alright I guess that's it yeah I think that's all I had to say okay so you know go to riotese.com for your spray seeds we carry stuff from all the cantaluminati dudes goat farm iron lonesome even got some panda stuff on the freebies probably going to have some panda stuff in the future like carried who else we got the rev smellboat CSI collabs with not so right now we got the the few cherry pie collabs up that they just did so go check those out they just dropped and of course our community has really really been built through our patreon discord like that's made a family that's made an absolute family I love some of these people like there's gonna be a lot of lifelong friends built out of that place and people really genuinely care about each other taking care of each other it's insane to see and you can be a part of that for as much as a coffee a month like you can be a part of that and chill and hang out with us basically it keeps the trolls out and it's a really awesome place and yeah do you know roughly how many people we have as members on the server I think it's about 500 at least on the discord but yeah probably about that I would guess I know it got up to 900 at one point and then cleared it out I think that included the free people the free people they were free yeah and occasionally we'll do that again we'll open it up for free so people can get like an idea of what goes on in there and see if it's something they're even into you know some people are tentative about discord and chat rooms and interacting we have a lot of people that just kind of snoop from the background and learn as they go and don't interact much and that's totally fine too and then there's people who get up in the mix and you know don't shut up it's a great community yeah it'll be up to it'll be at least in part up to Shawnee cause like either Shawnee is either feeling really good about people and wants to open it up or he's been like a total troll and wants to open it up so that he can like kick some people let's see which one you guys are yeah yeah cause I feel free to come hang out with us anytime we do this like I say it's not when I say 24-7 I don't mean I'm literally in there 24-7 but it's discord so we pop in and out all hours of the day all of us not so included all of us you know so come hang out with us chill sit for a while and hopefully you'll enjoy what we have to bring to breeder syndicate in the coming months yeah yeah and I just want to reiterate like if you miss not so he is still very much present and engaged and active on the server I'm just not letting him out until we get 10k it just he's my slave and that's how it's going to go alright thank you everyone thank you everyone and see you next season we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out