 about not only the lake but the free electricity and then there was a lake meeting just before corona with the matrimony executives where the test lake was introduced so in meantime quite something has happened especially there are two new technical features which are part of the lake and then I would like to say a few words also to the discussion with the trees in the lake bed which is boiling the emotions of some people quiet up here so Slava let's start the first thing you can't hear me okay in this way is better is it loud enough still more okay okay okay okay so you see here a drawing of the mother the mother has written a date on it 25th June 65 which he had given to Huta and that is a sort of her master plan for our will you have all the important elements which were obviously important for her at that time in the drawing you have the matrimon here next to it you have the house of Huta just above the matrimon here you have the amphitheater you have the lake you have the entrance area with a bridge you have the four zones you have the hill and you have the multi-story building of which she was talking with the flat terrace from where one could overlook or will now when she was making that drawing she was turning several times the page so that the individual pictures are partially upside down or 90 degrees cross can you put the next picture so here you see the hill which is in the main picture here now when you turn it so that the page is on top then you see here the hill then next picture this is the multi-story building she had spoken about it which has a lot of stories and on top is a flat terrace from where you could see very far the this building as such is no more in the concept but it found its implementation I think in the lines of force which will have the same you can interpret that from the entrance area to the hill there's a direct road many things one can or that on top of the hill there's maybe a restaurant which often in Japan it is the case okay next so we have been discussing the lake now for nearly 30 years so many different versions were there partially at some time it was only a water channel then many options came up Chilgi go once had proposed a lake which is only 25 centimeter deep because he thought anyway it has only a decorative function and no practical function and here is something 20 more than 20 years ago we made at the matrimandia a model of the matrimandia and the lake then it came to Germany we made the lake around I went with a lorry small lorry to Lecrestier to Roger's castle and there we discussed options of having the lake maybe in different steps and all so it went through a lot of transformation the proposed lake design till finally now what we are having is again exactly the drawing of the mother just clean German geometrical shape ring with a certain more or less uniform width which I think is the best also for the practical purpose next so this question can the lake have a practical function for the oral water system was one of the most heated points for many years Roger had made a proposal to the mother that from the matrimandia lake there would be rivulets flowing down towards the various communities there it would be cleaned in some purification plants and then pumped back to the lake the mother obviously liked the proposal that the lake should have a practical function because then she explained Roger a subframe Roger's concept so we were always thinking what practical function could the lake have and but now when we are actually building it and when it manifests then we find so many practical functions which we didn't think of before and there was always the utilitarian standpoint which I was absolutely against it which said we should make the lake only if it brings us something for me it was always that okay the mother had wanted it and she would have had her reasons but then now we are discovering that the lake will have a very big importance both for the oral water management system as also for the electricity system next in the lake there are always questions coming up for example why would the lake have to be so deep 10 meter if we want to use the lake as a storage system then obviously the flatter it is the the verse is the result of the storage we have here a net evaporation of approximately 40 centimeter that means we have in our area of evaporation over the whole year of one meter seventy and we have an average rainfall of one meter thirty so net evaporation of 40 centimeter if you have a lake which is only two meter deep then 40 centimeter would be 20 percent loss so the result would be in a ratio of 100 to 20 here I've made a mistake it should be 100 to 400 to 0.4 if the net evaporation of 40 centimeter goes with the depth of 10 meter then what you lose in the evaporation compared to your storage is only 4% so actually it has quite a good ratio the same is of course for the cost whether you have a lake of two meter depth you need the same area you need the same land you need nearly the same amount of oil so and on top of it the water heats up so the evaporation will be even more than if the lake is 10 meter deep so the the best way to have a very efficient storage is to make it as deep as possible and we have chosen as a sealant htbe foil we have before making the lake we had four test lakes where we checked out different sealants natural clay htbe foil bentonite mats and but and vacuum compacted clay but we landed with htbe foil htbe foil is has many many advantages number one the lake is 100 percent see pitch free there is not even 1% of loss due to see pitch then htbe foil is practically undestructible in Germany the manufacturers for htbe foils have to give a warranty of 100 years because it is used for garbage deposits where one is afraid that some chemical poisonous substances would go into the ground water so it has to be for a long-term intact htbe foil is totally inert against any acids that's why it's used also for food the some of you will know what the tupperware is these plastic containers for food that is actually htbe the tupperware so htbe foil is by far the best option what we found and the there are in Germany thousands of water bodies made with htbe foil where it's proven that it is long-lasting it can withstand the pressure of a certain depth we have also done the lake exactly according to the advice of the manufacturer and we have quite a long guarantee for the htbe foil and it is foiled by a specialist from Germany side who will come now again on the 1st 2nd of October and we we have to bring the foil up the walls so that it can hold the water for the next month soon so we feel quite confident with the htbe foil as a sealant another important point in a technical point in the lake is the water quality where also htbe is because it's absolutely neutral much better than natural clay for example also for root infiltration and so on what we have now added to it is actually in the past years there was always a little bit the competition between a desalination plant in our mind in the concept and water storage or water harvesting and I was always of the opinion that it's much more economic to desalinate the water especially if you do it in an eco-friendly manner and with the energy regain system so the costs for one cubic meter desalinated water would be relatively moderate and I never believed that one can in our situation store water for a price which would match the low cost of desalinated water but when we are moving forward now with this lake and we calculate the costs actually especially with the new invention of the underwater cushion storage we actually come quite close to the costs of the desalination so it actually is I think a viable option to store your rainwater harvested water especially for areas which are not at the coastline at the coast desalinated water of course as the advantage you can desalinate it or you can create it where you consume it but inside the country coin battour or whatever there I think water storage is absolutely important and there you have coin battour for example the ground water level is minus 300 meter 400 meters so you can't reach it anymore so they are water storage is absolutely imperative from the environmental aspects that was always also a concern for me that usually when you build water storage is anything what you build whatever it is has an impact on the environment it always uses carbon the techniques always lead to an emission of carbon dioxide and using up resources and to store one cubic meter of water practically for a whole year if you are in an area where the water falls on the rain falls only in the monsoon and then you have to store the water till the next summer when you consume it and the cost of the storage for one cubic meter view where you can store in one year only one cubic meter and the environmental impact always I thought was so high that also from the ecological point of view it makes no sense but with the HTPE foil I think the impact on the environment is quite low compared of course to concrete basins which concrete is one of the worst polluter regarding carbon dioxide so I think also now with invention of the underwater cushion it makes sense also from the ecological point of view to go for rainwater harvesting and water storage next so here you see the principle of the underwater storage which we have developed while we were building the first section of the lake basically you have underground foil cushion which you fill with water which folds up like accordion it goes high when you need it you fill it with water and when you don't need it next picture you take out the water and it's absolutely flat again and this cushion is because the pressure from inside is equal to the pressure from outside water has the same specific weight in and out and then you can have it in any dimension with relatively little effort the cost of such a water storage is only maybe 5% of what the traditional drinking water storage would be and with this in the Matrimandial Lake we can have if we want we could we could store 500,000 cubic meter of drinking water and especially when it comes to the desalination plant then the first concept was that the lake would be filled with desalinated water but then it's such a pity to waste your pure drinking water and mix it with rain water harvested dirty water but if we have this underwater cushion there we could let the desalinated water inside that cushion and the moment it fills up the water level of the lake also will rise in principle you could have 50% of the water in the lake in cushions and the other 50% of dirty run of water or water which you can use only for irrigation and desalinated water anyway will never contaminate it doesn't develop bacteria because it is totally free of minerals and that means it's relatively aggressively attracting all minerals so if bacteria would form the water would kill it because it would decompose the bacteria so you can store desalinated water indefinitely long so in any case a desalination plant should run 24 hours all the time and the consumption pattern never matches the production pattern so you need along with it a storage for your drinking water so the concept now is that when the desalination plant is up and running then we would not let the desalinated water just flow into the lake but we will let it flow into the lake but in the underwater cushion so that it's not wasted and it would remain as drinking water and then from there the matrimandia is the highest point in Orwell from there we can then distribute it into the various communities by gravity and we have now made the first cushion and a few days back we pulled it into the water the next few days we will anchor it we are just sinking down some of the Lego blocks where we'll anchor it then it's HDB is slightly lighter than water so it floats up so we will pull it down and then Luca will link it most probably to the water system which is I think near the kindergarten there we are quite close and then Orwell has drinking water storage inside the matrimandia lake which will be online in a few maybe two weeks or whatever we can we can connect it and the cost of it if you compare let's say the the elephant tower on top our cushion has I think seven times the capacity what that elephant tower has and it costs only a few percent of it and so this is a very very interesting option now next it was not so easy actually to find a geometrical form which we can use first we thought okay we only have to make a cushion and then we pump it full and it will be fine but you always have if here like in these corner less oval you have a longitudinal axis and then axis which is 90 degrees to it and when it folds down then on one side it falls in the longitudinal direction and on the other side in the other and where these two folds meet then you always get points which have a lot of stress and after hundred times filling and emptying there the foil would break so we tried all kinds of geometrical forms this one obviously didn't work you can see the the foiling is the foils is such that if you operated after some time it will crack next one this foil also this geometrical form also it didn't work by the way that is side our specialist who is coming now for the third time to horrible and and will stay here for some time for the fourth time okay next here also we tried a form of a roundish type of a pie but that also doesn't work it also forms these folds which we wanted to avoid next time here we are trying yarn is pushing as kind of a staircase inside we are we had sealed that one from inside the whole thing next here we are trying out the shape of an American football but that also finally turned out not to be functional next even a pure ball failed so we had a lot of tests and then finally we came the idea came up next to make a cushion which has a flat top which remains always flat doesn't foil in and out doesn't fold in and out and we have a kind of like an accordion some folds on the side which open then up only a little bit the folds are not exactly the same like in an accordion next because in an accordion as you can see you always have now the laser point okay it doesn't work doesn't matter so next to one fold in you have one fold out in the accordion so this way if you would fold it up and down with HTTP foil on that point where the the folds meet thank you so that means here at this point it would break after some time next but the way we have made it here now we have one meter fifty long flat pieces of foil which we weld here and here together and then the foil can just bend here in the middle there will be no nicking point it will just bend ideally in a sinus curve and since the foil anyway comes in rolls next like here you see we get the foils be we got nine containers I think or so a foil for the first section so it comes in rolls and you can roll it so the foil can bend in a certain angle without getting damaged so this way the this is working perfectly fine but we then discovered we have to still of course have some additional features next here you see the the first one-to-one big cushion which we made then with eight folds all around this is holding one million liter of drinking water next here you see it with matrimandia in the background there we have pumped it up with air to see how it behaves next here you see an aerial view of it next so if the water is out it's absolutely flat and if you fill it then here ideally you have that was our plan only 25 centimeter in each fold where it opens up but then we found if you don't control it if you don't limit each fold to the 25 centimeter then on one side it will fold up one fold huge and on the other side not at all so we have to have some additional accessories next like here you see in principle we have to limit it of course not only one but all around then we have to have an entry where we could insert suction device like you have in these swimming pools this robot which cleans and sucks out the dirt if some dirt accumulates then we have to have air valve to release and then we have some anchoring weights which keep it down next with this invention of the underwater storage with foil you can do so many things for example you could have an uphill power storage if onshore let's say in the matrimandia lake we treat that as an as the upper water reservoir and in the open sea you have the cushion then we would have 50 meter storage height and this is actually a problem of many desalination plants that they are in big cities let's say Chennai at the coast and they need a storage for the drinking water because the water is consumed let's say only at six o'clock in the evening when everybody takes a shower but the plant has to produce constantly and then Sunday they use maybe less or more or whatever so every desalination plant needs a storage but there is no space for the storage in the big city and then it would be very costly but since the desalination plant always is at the sea you could easily have your storage inside the sea with that foil and here we had made a concept just for demonstrating what all one could do if one would have the desalination plant offshore not onshore but offshore and you would power it with solar panels floating on protons which then you buffer the solar energy in an uphill power storage then you could have a closed system of a desalination plant which takes care of itself and is independent from any outside energy source next here three days ago four no five days ago we launched the cushion in the in the matrimandial lake you can see it's still floating and in a few days we'll pull it down on the ground and then connect it and then store all of its drinking water in the matrimandial lake there's another interesting there's no let's let's remain with this cushion the the principle of this underwater storage with a foil we have registered the patent on it and we have then gone to now a which is the manufacturer of our foil which is the world leader in geofabrics and htpe foil next one so this is alexander now a the owner of now a and they have a huge factory next here in espel kamp and when I explained him the principle he was quite surprised that his engineers hadn't thought about it and they are very much interested to work with us with us on this and they see a big potential also in technologies when you have let's say you have a earthquake and you send drinking water purification plants there but then you need storage too you can't go with the plastic bottle and get your water so they want to use this also in some other projects of their in south spain and they would be interested to work with us here in all that we should become agents for their products in India which would be interesting because at matrimandial now when the lake is finished we'll have a team which is perfectly trained for sealants of sealing the foils and we could come up with water storages in a big way next here you see for example if he would install in house drinking water supply in villages every village has a water pond and the water management system that every household has its drinking water the most expensive part is the water storage if now we would have in a village pond a water storage with our cushion and we have one borebell and then just the water tower where you pump it up and from where by gravity it would then flow into the individual houses then for a relatively small amount of money you could modernize the traditional way of drinking water supply in villages right now it is that either every house has a small borebell or at least some water storage you have a borebell and then you have a water storage underground tank and then you have an overhead tank on your roof and all this individual thing if you combine all that you have one pump or different borebells you have one central water storage and then you distribute it to the houses this could be a scheme for bringing modern and ecologically and economically viable way to to the villages where I think this system has a big potential next one now there is another new feature which we were talking about in the past in several meetings that we want to use the matrimandial lake as an uphill power storage for buffering up solar energy we have made with the earth of the hill just next to the first lake section with the earth of the excavation a small mini hill of about 15 meters height and we have foiled it next one and we have foiled it and this one has about a height of 15 meters theoretically we would get if we have a volume of 2,500 cubic meter we don't have yet 2,500 but we have enlarged that hill now and when side comes we would enlarge it to 2,500 cubic meter we could get theoretically 8 and storage for one of 82 kilowatt hours there if we had an efficiency of 80% with that low height and that type of turbine which we get we don't have that efficiency we have maybe between 50 and 60 percent right now but in if we use the if we use the hydropower storage system for the full lake then the next one here you see again the upper storage lake if he would use it for the full lake or if he would use it which we had thought for a lake on the hill then of course we get very good figures next we have already ordered the pump the turbine it should come in six weeks six weeks something like that then we will connect it the piping everything is done and then we have I think it's the third in Tamil Nadu the third apple power storage in Tamil Nadu and it's the first worldwide which is directly linked to a solar plant we want to link it to the matrimandia solar plant where then we can increase the capacity right now it makes no sense to put more solar panels in the high tension zone because we are producing already so much that at peak hours we have to export it into the grid which is not very interesting but if he can add more storage like with this then we can put up more solar panels ideally we would like to reach there that we can produce all the energy from matrimandia for it's all from its solar plant right now one third of the electricity the matrimandia consumes comes from its own solar plant if we can increase the storage we could increase the solar plant and that would of course then be a fantastic thing to demonstrate also that you could run matrimandia in an island mode next here we see the calculation for a small lake on the hill the hill would have a height of about 30 meter once it comes in the north side inside the green belt we are planning so there with about 30,000 cubic meter we can store 5,000 kilowatt hours already next if we would have an underwater cushion in the open sea and we would use the matrimandia lake as upper storage if we lower the lake only one meter and we have the 50 meter height difference then the lake has an area of 160,000 square meter so we would then have 160,000 cubic meter water and that would give us potential storage of 17,500 kilowatt and with such a big quantity then we really reach an efficiency of 80 percent which is much better than any battery storage you could think of so these are the two new developments in the matrimandia lake which show that we have really the lake is giving us now we are thinking only of these two things it gives us the possibility to structure our or will water management system in a totally different way in a very ecological way also and especially also for the electricity system of or will if we can have an an uphill power storage where we are now installing the first pilot plant that would also change the parameters of our electricity system so the claim of the anti-lake or villains that this is only for decoration and makes no sense that is no more so now the lake will have a very important role to play in all this infrastructure next so now let's come to the trees every water body has a certain but dramatic geometry and resulting there off has a certain current mechanism if you have wind flowing over the over the surface of a lake then you always get a current at the surface here which goes along with the wind and then when the water reaches the end of the water body it goes down and you get the counter current on the bottom of the lake and this current is very very important for the underwater biology because with a wind you get a wave movement and with a wave the air hits the water in an angle it doesn't just blow over it but it hits the water in an angle and thereby you get a lot more oxygen into the water than if the wind just blows over it and then you have the oxygen rich surface water which then goes down and brings the oxygen into the lower parts the problem with the lake with 10 meter is that the sunlight goes maximum till 5 meter or so and in the lower part of the lake I mean it's very good that you have that you have a big water storage and that the water remains cool but you have the problem that at the bottom of the lake there are no light reaches you have no algae and no water plants which could produce oxygen and then you tend to get an aerobic milieu where you have fouling water and that then produces a lot of sulphur you get then algae growth and all that so oxygen in the lower parts of deep water body is a must and for that you need a circulation of the water next now if you have no clear geometry with a flat bottom of the lake but you have a bump then this flow doesn't happen so easily anymore you get your surface current but then when you have the counter current from at the bottom and it has to go up and collides with the surface current then the whole mechanism stops so you have to see always that your profile of the lake underwater is very symmetric very smooth and doesn't provide disturbances for the current next now luckily with the matrimonial lake we will most probably have a current because the southern part here is elevated it's six partially six meter higher than the town hall part rather the town hall part is below the lake the floor of the town hall is one meter thirty below lake level so that means in the elevated parts we are on top of it you have here let's say trees the wind will hit the lake much less than here in the flat area where you have nothing and where it's not protected by a surrounding which is higher than the lake and that means when we have let's say here east wind that you get a current because here the water is pushed by the wind much more than on the opposite side so we will have in the matrimonial lake always a current when we have west wind we have the current clockwise when we have east wind we have the current anticlockwise and this current is very very important because then we have an underwater biology of not a stagnant water body but flowing water which means that we won't have algae problems and all that so we have to see that we keep this current possible in the matrimonial lake and therefore we have to see that we don't build in things which would block that current next now if for example you build a pen insular which is discussed quite a bit at present then a pen insular requires you cannot build a pen insular and then here just come down but it requires the same like here we have the shore one two three you have the same ratio of the shore there that means a pen insular which has only one third of intrudes only one third of the full width of the lake and two third you see the water people may think okay it blocks it only one third but that's not true you have 60% of the cross section of the lake body blocked by a pen insular which goes only one third into the lake next one and in reality you block it much more because then when the current comes you get here your worlds which again account a productive so with the pen insular which goes in only one third in the end you block maybe 80% of your current and that means only with very strong winds you would get at all a current so there is the discussion in our own team always I'm absolutely against the pen insular because they will take away the current of the lake and that means we'll have severe problems in maintaining a good water quality which if we keep just the strict geometrical form as the mother has drawn it nothing else no schnick schnack that would be the best from the point of view of the underwater biology next now it is as bad of course if we have an island let's say we have a single tree and you have to make that tree also on a cone with a shore of one to three that means with one island of one tree you block your whole lake inside and you create a huge mess for your underwater biology just for the purpose of having one tree there apart from it the storage capacity of course goes down because this cone on which the tree stands has a huge volume and then the foiling of the cone is much more complicated in the usual foiling you just put the foil straight down but here you have to have triangular things or so that one tree it creates such a mess and is extremely costly has as extreme effort and of course it reduces your quantity of stored water tremendously next and on top of it such a single tree in a single island has no chance of survival absolutely impossible because the soil below is absolutely dry here you have to foil it up to here if you don't foil it till top or put some some stones there or so the waves of the water and when the wind blows it will erode the soil will wash the soil out from the roots and a strong storm will anyway then take away that tree and so you have only a very small area where water from the rainfall can really come onto the soil on top of it tree always has that kind of umbrella effect where it leads the rainfall to the outside and then the water drops down only on the outside and in that case if you look at that neem tree which is here right now most of the rainfall wouldn't even reach a small place where the water could come in but let's presume that even some water would come in because here it's absolutely sealed on both sides minimum 40 meter no humidity can come in the underground that means that little water which comes here will diffuse immediately into the dry soil which is totally dry all the roots would only then go there where the water is will be flat on top and the next big storm anyway would just blow it away the tree on top of it it would starve because that little water which is here will not be enough to fulfill the demand of the trees and then the moment the capillarity breaks because not enough water comes up then the trunk gets dry and then the trees is finished and then you don't have in this area the usual conditions if you have a natural sealant like if you have clay then this won't happen in a clay sealed water body you can have islands because the roots will penetrate the clay and will go to the into the water and and get their water and then also a certain minimum humidity will be in the soil but in our foiled lake there will be no earthworms there will be no microbes there will be this whole earth flora and fauna which tree needs is simply not there it's a totally artificial and unhealthy condition so a tree in in this way if you would make a cone with foil has no chance of survival so the only chance that that tree there survives is if we transplant it we simply cannot make a cone and and then anyway after a few years let's say a storm comes in and blows it off then we have that huge cone in the lake for no rhyme or reason which blocks the whole thing which takes away so much storage it would be much more reasonable for that amount of money and effort and hustle which we import by such a device that we say okay let's put up a certain amount and then we plant new trees if we want to do it in an emotional way fine we can take cuttings from the tree and make seedlings and and take from that tree itself and plant let's say hundred neem trees somewhere else but more wise it might be if you put up an amount and just support an afforestation program somewhere in UT I don't know where it really makes sense where it has an impact in nature here we have so many neem trees if we transplant that neem tree it has no relevance for for nature here with if with that money we support some afforestation project somewhere we could maybe really do something for the environment so I think one should sit together and seriously think what makes sense and then maybe do something for the growth of trees in India or whatever but this what is the discussion now with this neem tree there is just makes absolutely no sense okay so that now would be it so now I'm expecting your questions okay one second one second better you take the microphone the lake would be really popular with me if you would make a nice accessible swimming pool out of it from the park side I actually also would like to swim in the lake okay that anyway will change with every new set of secretary of executives I think some will say yes some will say no so you'll have that discussion every I don't know four years then the present ones are absolutely against Michael I'm here okay I'm the one who one of the ones who has been defending the tree my name is me yes you have sent me I think 50 what's up by now 50 pictures at least firstly I want to say thank you thank you for making this presentation I think it was really important to share this thinking and what's going on so first I want to say thanks second I think it's very important for these ideas which you have just shown like this to be evaluated by experts and especially hydrogeologists this whole thing you're saying for example I saw in that picture where you showed the direction of the wind I'm sorry but when I've been under the tree the direction is not in the direction that you have said it comes in different ways so this whole thing that you will completely stop the circulation of the current I don't think that's true I think that needs we don't just take your word for it it needs to be evaluated and I would like to see that happen and maybe if you could get that evaluated I'm not sure who would this is one or two people I can think of and we can talk about that later but just presenting it like this I'm sorry that's not enough for me we need to have it evaluated properly because this is all anyway mother's money right so and it is for oral as a whole we all care for oral and I think you're using a kind of a technical kind of reasoning which I think it doesn't bridge and I believe that we can find a bridge and we need to find a bridge between the factions and between the different perspectives so the reason why I'm hanging on for that tree is because of this possibility of the bridge which we need to do after 54 or whatever years right so one let us please get it actually evaluated by some hydro geologists people who have experience with lakes Indian not Indian a mixed team please let it be evaluated I think we owe it to ourselves in Orville and of course to you with all your efforts that you have put in it needs evaluation see obviously you are not aware what we all have done we have a scientific team from the LGA in Nuremberg with we have a scientific team in Nuremberg from the LGA which is the biggest scientific institute in Germany and there we have Jochen Köhler who has been so many times here who is an underwater biologist we have Carlo Schillinger the LGA team has built the biggest water bodies in Germany they have made the Brombach Lake with an area of 18 square kilometers they have made the Rhine mine Danube channel they have made so many water bodies and they are the absolute specialists and they have told us exactly that so and we have done so much research we have done for example in the lake bed 10 core drillings where we have taken out the soil we analyzed it in a scientific institute in Surat in the hill area we have done core drillings we had Mr. Goldenbaum here from Germany a scientist in this field who had coordinated all that we have regular meetings each and each and every step what we do at the lake we verify with our scientists in Germany so we have done that for now the team of the LGA there with us more than 20 years or even more maybe I don't know the ones of you who are here longer we had in the very beginning once I think in Bharat Nivas a water conference where they were there where we invited other Indian water specialists and we started from there and they are accompanying us all the while so I think we are quite well stuffed with scientists who are part of this and we are telling us exactly what what we should do Michael I hear what you're saying but could we have an independent evaluation yeah but they are independent they have no stake in it Michael Michael could you could you just elaborate one couple little things okay first thank you very much for the great work I just have some considerations about the 10 meter depth what I understand from you is that the currents will take care of the toxicity at that depth because an engineer has told me once you go over 2.5 meters the insulation of that cold water down below will as you said become toxic so we're going to have in the lake I understand fish and plants so there will be things that will drop down will reach the bottom so I don't know are there do you have you thought about how to keep the lake let's say clean or how to test the the water at all depths you know regularly so we don't get into a toxic situation with the water thank you yeah this is of course and the discussion since so many years and we had different opinions some say don't go below 4 meter because as I said the light will not reach below so you will get an unerope system there and then the other scientists also Harold Kraft and others they say as long as you keep the geometry clean and you allow a current to happen you have no problem and there are of course also big water bodies for example in Jinji you have very deep lakes and they are quite clean so it doesn't mean that invariably when you have a water body which is deep it's not it's not clean you have to just see that you have a flow of the of the water then it's okay so this is the important thing for the underwater biology if you don't have that then you have to introduce artificial oxygen then you have to have a fountain which brings oxygen in the water and so on but if you keep it the way as we have foreseen it now without any bumps and islands for trees and peninsulas and all that stuff then I think we will be fine that's what what we hope and what we expect but that's also one of the research works we have to do with this we have to demonstrate once this whole lake is finished and it's a circle and do we get a current or not what will be the water situation and all it's very interesting but from all what we hear from our specialists it should work are we in the here Mike yeah afterwards Laba can you yeah okay so my understanding was that the test lake was made and it's test would finish in two more years when it is fully filled in then we could have perhaps all these things experimented what happens to the depth and all those things and I was also told that only last year we finished the channel and at that point this tree and other trees were the viewing point and a stone wall was built it wouldn't have been done unless there was a plan to continue this experiment for longer because you wouldn't build all this channel up to the current test point and in one year again rip it out and undo all those stone walls so my question is one second you were understanding that we make a test lake and then afterwards take it off no what I understood from the engineer who was in responsible for the test lake that that experiment was to finish in three years did it fully fully filled in and we see all the effects so the question about the depth that is there now whether toxicity will happen at the bottom or not will be answered if we let this test lake take its time to to to finish the experiment before continuing with the rest so it seems to me that from what I heard about the test lake part and secondly what I hear what was done just last year with the channel thing that there was a plan to keep this test lake for longer and now before it is even filled up we are already moving on to the next that seems to be a bit of a concern other thing for me when I look at this map in front of me and this diagram I am not an engineer but I have worked a lot with water bodies gardening and all that and I see lot more solutions to keep this soil healthy the one thing that is very peculiar in our lake here is the HDF foiling which is making the surrounding environment underneath and around not natural because it is cutting off what would have happened in natural environments like the Genji Lake that you spoke of it's so deep it is healthy because it is there is no HDF foil there so it has a natural flow of life from ground to water and everything else so with HDF foil we are changing a lot of things here and we need to experiment properly thank you two things I want to say first of all if we stop now with the first section then very important parameters will not be completed so we cannot test we cannot test for example with this first section whether there is a current in this ring form of the lake which will be good enough to keep the water biology healthy if I'm absolutely sure if we have a ring shape and one part is in the wind shadow because the surrounding is higher and one part is not in the wind shadow then and here anyway most of the wind direction okay it may vary a little bit is either from east to west or from west to east either from the sea to the land or from the land to the sea and exactly in that direction is our oval and exactly in that direction is that the southern part is in a wind shadow and the northern part not so this kind of current in the lake you can test only once the whole thing is completed if now we wait for three years or four years with the first section and then we make the next section and we wait again for three or four years and all that then I will not see the end and you may be also not so I think let's complete it and then see and HDPE foils in Germany there are thousands of water bodies with HDPE foil we don't have to now make a test if there are so many water bodies already we can just see what they do why do we have to reinvent the whole thing I think it's manageable where's the mic now it's there hello yeah yeah thank you for this presentation we've been wondering what this lake is all about we've been waiting for yes we've been waiting for five to ten years to hear and understand what this lake is all about and I appreciate very much personally the amount of work that has gone into it and I have no doubt about the sincerity of this attempt but if you don't mind my saying so we have also dealt with experts who charge between 1500 and $2,000 a day on issues we've dragged them to courts in India and proved them wrong after hearing from you and your understanding of what we are trying to say being reduced to this ridiculous drawing up here which you label us with of this hill in the middle of a lake and then tell us that this is not practical the only thing it shows is that you have no understanding what so ever of what people have been trying to say or what they want to understand about the lake having said that as I say we would be deeply interested in receiving real scientific material from you on the various aspects you raised from mother's time to today there will have been several scientific reports especially today and if you are telling us that the matrimandir committee has accepted your proposal it means to me that they have studied that proposal and they have accepted the liabilities that possibly arise out of this attempt the liabilities arise from the start of the desalination plant to the top of the watershed for one then the collateral effects of doing this dam and this lake right on top of the watershed of that I take it that you and they have accepted the liabilities including digging out of the soil of this colossal volume which we may need to receive back into our will and for purposes that it did fulfill previously on the lake so please don't sell that soil nor tinker with it as far as the as far as the desalination plant is concerned yes we would like to understand more about it and how you would possibly want to face the situation of the saline buildup in coastal zones which will affect not only fisheries but also the water on coastal belts where that deeply salted water will seep back into the land anyway many of those questions are open what we would like is I think this matter should be taken up and presented to horrible in a formal manner and taking it to the residents assembly which we would like to see without which I don't think or should approve this plan okay one one question what you wanted to know about the desalination plant with a with a Saline water going into the soil what was the question there can you repeat that I didn't get it any with any desalination plant there is refuse water yes which is returned back to the sea yes absolutely and that water is usually piped out at a certain distance yes we have 500 meter whatever it is adequate studies have been done to ensure that the water does not wash back towards the shore because if it does and sometimes it emerges from the emission pipeline in plumes it is not dispersed it emerges in plumes and those plumes have no way of no way of knowing how those plumes drift and those drifts can move back towards the shore it can move along the shore and where as I said it will not only impact fisheries but it will also impact water bodies close to the sea where that water gets pulled back into the land to the wells that are in the surrounding areas and this may be from anything from one to ten kilometers from your output point that is women that is a minor point I'm much more concerned with the actual working of the lake on top of the hill and as I see this reservation that was expressed by a render on HP HDP I share however I'm not saying that I'm questioning the feasibility I'm saying let us look at the studies I don't know why you want to hide the studies from the community you wish to serve I don't know why you want to not be as honest as you can in for example twisting the entire arguments of the health of the mother Monday and mother Monday gardens as you have done by reporting it in this ridiculous manner of saying oh well you want to save the street we will replant it in the nilgeries please don't be ridiculous okay now on this desalination plant obviously you have not been in any of the meetings where I explained the concept of our deep salination plant we have made an environmental impact study which is that thick we have made but dramatic studies where we were monitoring the currents at the shore in front of our desalination plant and I can assure you that definitely no Brian will flow back underground into the land it's the opposite way we are desalinating water we bring fresh water on shore there it will be used like you will drink it then you will go to the toilet then it goes in your see pitch tank and then the fresh water goes in the aquifer and then it creates the opposite underground movement every drop of water which is desalinated and brought it on shore is counteracting the intrusion of the salt water into the aquifer let me finish and what you say about the Brian forming formations this is exactly the most dangerous part of a desalination plant for example in Chennai because when you press the water through a membrane then due to the high pressure all the oxygen goes out so your Brian has no oxygen anymore and because it has a higher salt content the usual salt content is 4.5 percent the brain has 6.5 percent so it's heavier it falls down on the ground and forms a carpet and thereby stifles everything what is on the ground which is actually the source of the bio life in the sea and I don't understand how for example these Chennai desalination plants they got permission they are emitting the one which is there since longest is emitting every day 450,000 cubic meter of Brian and discharges it in one point only 200 meter from the shore which means the whole bay is dead we have done quite some studies by specialists from Larsen and Torbjord and all that we have a system where we put the Brian out 500 meter we are desalinating only 5000 cubic meter per day and we have other features like an energy regain system where we use very little energy because the pressure which we use to build up to push the water through the Brian when we release the Brian we regain it from the Brian to increase the pressure of the fresh sea water we are using zero chemicals in the whole process all the other desalination plants they use chlorines to flake out the plankton we are letting it flow through quartz glass and and kill the plankton with heavy UV light and so on and so on so our purpose of making that plant is to demonstrate that you can have a desalination plant with zero chemicals with no negative impact on the underwater biology and with green energy and once that functions and we have demonstrated that which will be the only other first plant in India then we were thinking of scaling it up maybe along the coastline instead of what is being built now which is a catastrophe so we are actually absolutely on the track and our concern and our knowledge I think I'm sorry if I offend you is a little bit deeper than yours in at least this subject but see since we have we have discussed that since okay fantastic we have discussed we have discussed that we have we have shared this we have shared this with the T the various TDCs in the past for so many times and we have discussed it the last 25 years so often yesterday just for fun I checked in my emails record how how many emails do I have where the name sorrow appears not that the email was too sorrow but where maybe it was to Toby or God knows he was in copy or just we were talking sorrow now how many emails do you think I have my inbox with the name sorrow what do you guess thousand seven hundred thousand seven hundred and we are just getting fed up after 30 years to explain again and again and again and again after some time you have to come to the point and do it and then only you see you can theoretically discuss and discuss and discuss he has all the stuff he has from 20 years I don't have any more nothing to say but I didn't know I was so popular to be quoted thousand seven hundred I can make some I was coming to that okay thank you for making the presentation Michael I think I have not talked for quite many years we had no occasion I didn't know I was so popular to be quoted so many times but I remember that there is some question and still this question has not transferred today I mean that is the main point become how we share the information because if we share the information thing go fast and move in information or not share a shared thing get stuck or complicated I asked the Michael because I have one question very simple because I was triggered at the beginning of your presentation by your statement about the cost comparison between our vested water then the salinated water so I was simply going to ask if you can share the data make public but then it turned to every discussion about how to have the information make it share I remember that when we arrange for our craft to do the Azure project project and he made the prefisibility study we have uploaded on the Internet is still uploaded there after 20 years and there was no arm actually it has been a good source of information for people but nothing has been public until then except is discussing meeting so my invitation to you is really to change this approach and to be more open to have you say we have a lot of study of scientists because please share them yes love is an excellent web master you can you can put in website with all the information I mean sharing information will help a lot have you ever looked at the website yes then they come into my overall question and comment is I mean there are many questions which can be raised by your presentation but it seems that by this approach I mean a decision has been taken about the entire water system and energy system of our city of 50 thousand people is managed so that is raised my question I mean that that why there is a need to have a more inclusive approach because we are talking of by making a leg we take the decision about how the water is managed and the energy managed and this man in a centralized way so this is the question it is of general community concern that concern all citizens or all people involved in the construction of our will so this question should be should be a bit debated more the second point is I have nothing against your system or against the lake etc I mean but we say but the system you have you are proposing since many years is it worthwhile financing I mean few years ago when we had the last discussion I heard that the energy system was able to give a backup of one hour I don't know if your data has been changed now but is that worthwhile to have all this complex system to have a backup of one hour if there is no electricity can you just make it as a community other investment in terms of alternative energy or decentralized energy that is one question which is not absolute one I'm just a question whether still the data is correct if your information is that the backup the solar the energy that you generate with the pumping up and down from the from the lake the lake you can provide a backup system of electricity for one hour and I'm just asking to answer later on if this is still the correct information or if there is any change the last point which is of a certain concern is that I mean the system will depend a lot on technology complex integration of technology which is fine I have nothing wrong against this but require a lot of efficiency and a lot of investment capital for investment and for maintenance so I don't see any consideration for that we do not do we have the resource to start the system or we just get stuck in the middle do we have the resource or maintaining do we have the capacity to maintain the system and whatever you have said regarding combining the source of our vested water and desalinated water still the use of the lake for water supply in the city the way you have presented depend a lot on desalinated water and I don't see the desalination plan come anywhere in 2028 where the lake is being completed so I know the discrepancy between the plan to complete the lake in 2028 and the fact that is depending whether we like it or not on the realization of desalinated water that is not nowhere in the doesn't seem realistic to have this functioning for 2028 at least on the information we have so there is a lot of questions that has to be solved maybe your system will function perfectly everything will go well if the system function perfectly but if there is the system are not synchronized the supply with desalinated water they maintain us the capital is not enough we remain middle of the way and we may create some kind of social disaster in terms of supply etc or in terms of a static disaster as far as Matthew Mandir is concerned so this question would be worthwhile not once for now but it would be worthwhile to consider and make part of a general discussion then one last small thing is just regarding the argument you took of the island the block in the water supply but if you put if you put the storage and they are full I mean they create a block in the wave no it's not the same like in an island that is that is one question which I have I mean that is and one last question I remember that sorry one and it's over but I remember that one parameter of Roger maybe my memory is wrong because I'm not dealing with this much it was the fluctuation should be maximum one meter but if you use the water harvest for irrigation then it would be much more than one meter in the course of of during during the season so that's my last question okay that thing with Roger the matrimandial lake is a lake right now if you see it from the testing purpose or research purpose okay earth lava can you put the first picture with the drawing of the mother again where we install certain principles and demonstrate that yes you can have a water storage which is 10 meter deep you can do this this this whether for what we use the water then is another question and Roger's thing of one meter is fine it is one meter that's why for example I have said that we would use it for the uphill power storage maybe only for one meter but one thing in general I have found at matrimandia for example with quite a number of things that when there is a clear instruction or a vision of the mother where the mother has said okay I have seen this and she said I have seen it more real than I see you when she spoke to Sartre and she has given a clear instruction what should be done even if like from my own private experience if in the first instance I didn't understand it and then when still be realized then in the course of realization we found there is so much truth in it that I'm sure when the mother has made the drawing with the lake that and all our scientists tell us yes this is the way you should do it that then we don't need the authorization of you or you or you or you then we have the duty to try it out and see and we can go on this discussion there will every year some new person will come and say hey I have not been informed why are you hiding the information we had so many information meetings we had so much exchange I think we are coming to a point now where we have to try it out and then we will see I have duties duties then Frederick then from a person there you mean the underground cushion yeah the plan is to have them all in one level let's say if we have them all two meter or three meter high maximum one next to the other then you have again your geometric form uniform we would not have an underwater cushion which we fill up till nearly the surface and then block the lake but we will have a battery of cushions which will only inflate up to two meters or something like that thank you market for your presentation I think it took a lot of time for this presentation and I could see so much energy went to this project starting from your presentation in France and so on and really appreciate this your dedication and and I was in Matri Mandir executive I was in Matri Mandir as executive from 2017 to beginning of 2020 and I had opportunity to work for this that was by the time by the way that was the time when the decision came to start yeah that's that's the thing I could observe that to get green light from Matri Mandir team and TDC it was very difficult for you so but you could start this project it was because you could it was for the test lake yes so it means test means you first test a small piece of the entire project and you see the result and then assess and observe through the year like we have extreme weather like very heat and also heavy monsoon and mild winter so I think it is very logical to observe all this process through the year ideally maybe two years one more maybe more than one year because these days we can't really predict the climate climate changes there so I was actually hoping today to see the result because I was working with you and it was sort of promise to the Matri Mandir team and also to the community that Baruna team leg team will present this do this experiment and we shall see it's kind of this approach so today I feel somehow there is kind of sense of hastiness in the process that kind of you're going to party but you're not wearing trousers so it's little bit not complete so I think what we want to see is actually the first part to be fully complete and then to see the result including oxygen level in the water and pH level and how the aquatic life they live and also trans evapotransplant transpiration sorry I don't know about evaporation level so I think all this actually I believe that's this request is not something blocking the process it's rather encouraging your process to make it more concrete and steady so I think I'm not asking you too much to the lake team so that why don't you complete entire test lake and then you can at the same time in parallel you can arrange a lot of scientific you know so highly engineering uh engineer projects I think this will not really contradict your spirit of dedication and also the offering to the mother so and also one more thing is that today I really wished Matri Mandir team to be here with you to present the presentation with you Matri Mandir executives because they make decisions together but somehow this isolation for me it's a little bit strange to me so I really wished for these two things today but generally I really appreciate your dedication and you are the most hardworking person I ever worked with I really respect that see the the testing of the test lake has not stopped it goes on and on with the next section we have again different conditions we have a different water body and what we have seen now while we do it we find so many things which are interesting which we didn't know before so I think the value of the test lake and the results of the tests will be much more if we continue than if we wait now the some results are already very clear which was one big question for example that I had the feeling before that commercially and effort-wise open water body stands nowhere compared to a desalination plant there I really had to change my mind and see that things are possible which were not possible or which I didn't think of without that and I think the bigger the lake grows the more we will find out and the testing results will be much better if we continue than if we stop now and sit on this and look at it for three years htpe lakes have been made so many that was one doubt which many people had will really attend me to lake work or will it get a hole and the water get out so from my point of view I think we should for the sake of testing and research we should continue and not stop just a little because I have heard from a few people that actually the fishes inside the test pond and also the channels they are not doing well so if the fishes are not doing well the water quality has a problem and eventually we will have a lot of mosquito lovers that's quite a problem yeah I think the water channel you cannot really compare with the lake because it has the maximum depth in the middle is 75 centimeter or something like that and of course in this flat thing then the sun shines in the water will get hot and all that so but even then especially what you are saying now I think once the lake is a circle and we have a current we'll have totally different conditions and I'm sure there are fishes which would do well in in this lake also when I see in similar climatic conditions in Hong Kong for example there are so many in the titan water reservoirs and all that there are so many similar lakes which huge coys and all that I'm I'm sure if we have the right fish inside and once it's completed you will see a lot of fish and I think the water quality will be very very nice that's my my impression I have next Frederick can I give it to Frederick you said the first place to be connected would be the system that includes or is close to the kindergarten what a horrific idea if the children in the kindergarten are getting water out of a plastic bag from the bottom of that filthy lake I'm sorry let me just finish that is terrifying to me as a mother as a as in fact as a community midwife which I happen to be so what I'd like to say is personally I'd like to invite experts for example there are here in India experts who have done incredible work on water bring that person back in let it be we have here the most ancient as I understand it the most ancient water system that this whole coastal area had the most incredibly functioning water system bring those experts back in that's my request I think that kindergarten thing you have misunderstood next to that kindergarten is the pipeline going to the elephant water tower and Luca wanted to connect it on that point it has nothing to do with the water of the kindergarten actually I'm the next one here to the price Michael well I was impressed by what I heard and I think mother uses each one of us in its own capacity and you definitely have a capacity to get the energy to manifest and that is appreciated but you should also accept that there is a softening and a regulating power in the community over the 25 years or 30 years or 40 years if you would have allowed the time necessary from that drive the community to be included we could have maybe avoided some grave mistakes coming to the point now do you see any way enough water capacity to fill the lake without a desalination plant my question okay we were actually all surprised how well this first section fills we had never thought that um it would be to the five meter 20 where the walls are now unfold and I think we have lost already now nearly one meter or something or 80 centimeter where we had to pump out the water because we have too much water and we didn't think of foiling it up to the eight meter now our specialist is coming and on 25th the next container with foil comes in so we were we are actually surprised how much rain water harvested water is available and when you think of the city of Orwell we should think really of the city of Orwell then there will be I don't know 20 30 percent of the area sealed roofs buildings roads places and you have to do something with that water you cannot just ignore the water it will form rivlets and walk away houses and all that you have to have a water management system where you collect that water and then you have two choices you let it go into the sea or you for example bring it back to the matrimandial lake and I think we will have much more water water harvested water in the city than what the matrimandial lake can even absorb okay that you mean to say even though it is five meter might only represent a third of the total volume required because it is obviously widening on the top but nevertheless you think if it's done well and consciously and so on we are not dependent on the desalination one is that's what you're saying I think we are not dependent on the desalination plant if the city also comes up but we very much hope that the desalination plant will come soon okay that brings me to the second point the very fact that you said we lost 80 centimeter is because there is a disconnect between the community and the executive and between you and the executives as you said it would be good if these four people or five or six people would be sitting here because I understand that the test lake and you don't use the word test anymore you use as the first section of the lake I noticed the difference could have carried on and raising it to its full length but by an unplanned decision no no no we carry on over now to the next section so it even from that point of testing how much water actually would have been accumulated it was stopped because the ongoing process of completing the test lake was stopped in favor of starting the new one that brings me to the second one I don't want to elaborate too much I think we don't want to stop your drive we don't want to stop the lake we don't want to stop the mother's vision to manifest but allow a certain pre-planning that we can say let the first test lake be finished can we not figure out instead of dumping the soil now here can we not figure out somewhere where it is permanently located can there not be even at the cost of delaying to sometimes sometimes the process is much more important and that's where I agree with Orada you come and go you don't know the effect of the process here you come you bring the energy and the impetus but you have to allow the process to take up even if it's frustrating okay I think you know my opinion about the process no I don't want to repeat it I've told it often enough and I think the fact that we continue for example now the earth what we are excavating now from the second section we are using it to enlarge that small hill just next to it to put up an uphill power storage which is the state of the art to store energy where I come back sorrow to your question that is the cleanest way how to store energy compared to all these dirty batteries which are put up each solar panel has a battery now if you compare that and we would have a centralized storage system an uphill power storage with no batteries and whole of all will could run on green energy like solar panels house made where we store the over capacity at lunch hours and we have then electricity in the night and we don't have to use the battery I can't see how people don't see this and and don't appreciate that and here they are reaching the best and most efficient and most ecological way of an electric system and nobody cares everybody just wants to be heard and block and stop and process the process has become a self-purpose here in orville which doesn't serve any purpose but blocking yeah but now actually okay but you may have to have a bit more patience because my taxi is waiting and if I don't go now I miss my flight to Hong Kong my question is on a human level on a heart level the environmental question you we don't have time because I wouldn't want you to miss your flight to Hong Kong Bangkok or New York it makes you feel like you have the absolute mission on this story I want to know how you as Michael carry that and I know that Arjun and Twan is been very irritated by us because I see but I am as irritated as their reaction as they're irritated by us Orville is a long process it's not getting somewhere it's the journey and I think mother has said Orville will be when she never said and it's the way we do things it's not what we do okay I tell you what is my feeling there are hundred and one opinions everybody has another opinion and there's one opinion which is coming from the mother so that has more value than this or this or this and everybody does the same here everybody tries to implement his vision and what he thinks is best and I also try to do it yeah and you think a larger dimension is worse than a smaller one apologize because we have a list of people who wanted to speak and we have to say no to people so please please accept that you are the last person to speak I guess because Michael needs to ask no because since since 50 since 50 years I feel we are haunted by difficulty to translate mother's vision into reality and with what kind of processes and what she really said and where she changed her meaning and when I see the sketches here for example I see a geometry but I see also just circles these are the four zones yeah but when I now listen to mother with this then the zones should look like that you know I mean the sketches are sketches they are symbolic and this is my haunting situation since 50 years to come to something between mother's vision where she changed also from year to year to what we have to do and should do and I appreciate very much what you have done and I find it amazing even to match it with this a technical linking with water supply yeah I mean you you pulled with Harald Kraft the rabbit out of the hat I feel that really but you come to another system which is partly not matching the geography and many other features and for example the 10 meter difference from one side to the other one could have so many versions of a lake and also even her vision which was which was growing between the ideal of the Japanese garden with lakes and nature and then Roger's vision which was the leading thing and I was the first one not the first one but I was very much impressed by that and it's till today and the match in Monday gives the standard I know that also as an architect and as one who feels is asked to design to to do something with and the technical means but when you force I don't say now you do it but I see the danger one forces system of technicalities and artificialities to to marry a very very complex system yeah into something where you say we have to do it now like this and this is my question because mother much more flexible than we ever know you can continue if you want to but I have to leave