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Today, we have the most amazing story. It's this story. It's a person. Today, we have with us someone who actually worked for a company called Zanga. You may have heard of, if you're into gaming, especially the Zanga is a company that has created many games, including the famous Farmville and many others. His name is Neil. Hello, Neil. He's here with us in voice alone. But his name is Neil Herron. Can you hear me, Neil? Yeah. Yeah, I can. So where are you, Neil? You're in the US, right? Yes. I'm actually located in San Francisco, California. I've heard of that. The most beautiful city in America. So tell, you want to tell the story about when you sent me an email at five in the morning? Yeah. So, yeah, I had just actually heard about bitcoins. I think it was trading at like a dollar at that time. Well, to be fair, I have to say, it was only two a.m. in San Francisco, but it was five a.m. here. Yeah. Yeah. It was five a.m. But the fund lasted for like four or five hours. So it quickly became five hand. Right. Right. Yeah. I had just actually heard about bitcoins. And I was super excited about the prospects of integrating bitcoins along with what we do, which is make games. And I just thought that it was a much cleaner way to get users to be able to buy games, to be able to play games, and not have to worry about how to pay for it. It just made a lot of sense. So yeah, I immediately sent you an email and we started talking. And there was a lot of potential in that conversation. So it was a very good conversation. Okay, great. So what you do is you create games. Farmville is one of the first social games that actually gets you involved with all of your friends and family and you invite each other. And it really is like really sticky. It draws people in to the activity of the game. I learned this from you in that phone conversation, by the way, because I don't really know anything at all about games. But I learned two things. Tell me if I'm wrong or if I'm right. Yeah, you are absolutely correct. Farmville was one of the earlier games that actually integrated social media with gaming. So it's like basically helped you connect with your friends, play with your friends, and all in a setting that was very friendly, very casual, and all on Facebook. And then there are other games that have come out that are across all platforms, like Angry Birds. Everybody's familiar with Angry Birds, even if I'm not into gaming, but I know about that. And that it's available on every single platform. Right? Yep, that is correct. Angry Birds is kind of one of those, it's still a different type of game. It's one of those casual games, but it doesn't exactly fit into the Facebook model necessarily yet. But I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they're on Facebook as well. So when we talked in that conversation, you were really excited about Bitcoin because you can see that obviously everybody who is technical and who gets into, discovers Bitcoin, sees the advantages and the benefits, and it's just so free that it's not regulated or controlled by one company, by Facebook, or by the bank, or by MasterCard, Visa International, or PayPal, or whatever. You're not tied by all of these artificial boundaries and barriers. It's just as free as the internet itself. So you saw the potential in using it in gaming. So tell me, what were your thoughts then, and then what has happened since then? Where have you gone with that, if anywhere? So one of the challenges when you incorporate payment systems into gaming is you have to deal with credit cards, you have to deal with third-party vendors. You have to deal with third-party payment systems, and it becomes really, really complicated after a while. Also these third-party payment systems like Facebook credits, for instance, or even Apple, for instance, these guys, they take very, very high commissions when they incorporate their payment system into your game. Even Apple, isn't it especially Apple? I mean Apple on their apps and basically all the software and everything that they sell in the app stores, don't they take like 30 percent? Is it the same with the money in the game stores? Yeah, exactly, it is. And Apple takes 30 percent, like you said. Facebook actually, they take a little more than 30 percent. They take 30 percent, but then they also have these free Facebook credits that they've given out. So basically it somehow works out to being like 50 percent, which can really, really be pretty tough to deal with, especially if you're startup. Where was that other 20? They take another 20 percent. Where was that again? Yeah, so that's through Facebook actually gives out a lot of free credits, you know, trying to get you to use Facebook credits and whatnot. And if people use those Facebook credits, those free Facebook credits, you don't get anything from that. So it works out to being like 50 percent. Wow, 50 percent. Well, because you're saying so 20 percent goes to Facebook, 30 percent goes to Apple? Sorry, no, no, no, no, no. So Apple and Facebook, they're different. Apple for their games, their apps, they take a flat 30 percent. I guess the universal standard now these days, 30 percent. But Facebook also takes 30 percent, but they take, in addition to that, they also have free, these free Facebook credits that, you know, just to try and get the user to be familiar with Facebook credits, to use it and whatnot. And, you know, they give away these free credits, but that comes out of us. So basically they force you to give the service away. Exactly. And so you're saying overall, it averages out to like 50 percent because of that? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, Jolene, in the chat room is saying it sounds like Facebook is eviler than Apple. Yeah. I wouldn't say evil, but definitely profitable. Yeah, definitely more profitable. They pass on the profits onto them. Yeah, pass on the profits to themselves. Yeah. So, all right, but meanwhile we have to live with the fact that Facebook is Facebook and Apple is Apple. And as a game developer, you can create games, though, that are cross, do they allow you to create games? I mean, does Apple allow you and Facebook allow you to create games that work on every platform independent of their platforms? Oh, yeah, actually, they don't have any restrictions on that front just yet. In fact, the game that we are really just trying to launch right now, that one is actually on pretty much all platforms. It's on Facebook. It's going to be on iPhone, iPad, and it's also going to be on Android as well. So, yeah, they're pretty much welcoming about that. Okay. So, to be clear, then, you worked for Zanga when Facebook, and you're a developer on the team that created Farmville and many other games there at Zanga, right? Yeah, that is correct. Okay. And then since then, you're now independently wealthy and fly around in private jet. No, I'm just making that up. No, but you actually left making that part up. Just kidding. But no, you left Zanga, and now you've launched your own company inearth.com, and now you have your own venture that you actually founded. You're the founder and CEO of inearth.com, and so you're your own game developer independently now, is that right? Yep, that is correct. And you've got a whole team of developers that work for you? Yeah, yeah, we are about 24 strong right now. Wow, cool. All right, so now, so back to the story about Bitcoin. When you first discovered Bitcoin and you're realizing that, whoa, this is new, whoa, this is a game changer, what were some of your first thoughts about how Bitcoin could be incorporated into this world that you're in of entrepreneurial game development? So the first thought that came into my mind was, so when you think of social gaming, and you think of social media, you also think of what are one of those things that really helped social media get to the next level and whatnot, and payment systems was one of them. And I really believe the future is going to be a currency system that is decentralized. It's a decentralized currency system, one that's very easy to transfer, very easy to move around, very easy to pay for things, and bitcoins just happens to be the currency right now that's decentralized and does all those things that helps our industry. So it's a very, very mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship right now. And it doesn't hurt that it has zero transaction fees and it's irreversible, no charge backs, right? No, it does not hurt. Exactly. So like I mentioned, those 30% and the 50%, we don't have to deal with that. That's just an extra 30 to 50% profit. That's like more profit than many industries have, so just that alone makes it extremely profitable, and you can actually put that back, not only into profit, but into R&D and making even more awesome games, right? Yeah, exactly. All those profits get to go back into the product that we're trying to make a lot of people happy with. Absolutely. Now, the Apple has specifically banned many things that are peer to peer and about freedom and sharing like BitTorrent apps or Bitcoin apps actually are banned from the Apple store. Bitcoin apps, from what I understand, have not been approved. So is there any pushback from Apple or Facebook that's anti-Bitcoin? Have you seen anything like that? So yes, there would be, right? Now, right now, even from the payment systems that are incorporated into Apple games, you have to use Apple currency. You have to use their iTunes currency, right? Like you have to use that, and that's how they enforce the 30% rate. Well, in terms of using Bitcoins, we take a different approach. What we're thinking of doing is having an off Facebook, off iPhone, iPad, just a completely portal site that offers our gains and allows you to pay for features, pay for upgrades, pay for all of those things using Bitcoins. And hopefully, that will launch soon. That is our initiative, is to do everything off of Facebook and off of iPhone, iPad. Would you be able to buy Bitcoins offline and then bring that credit into a game that's on an Apple or Facebook? Yes. So the game already is on Facebook, and it will be on iPhone, iPad. So the game will be on all those platforms, and as well as being on those platforms, it'll be on an independent portal site, which will take Bitcoins. So it'll be still the same game. It's the same game. It's just another way to pay for it, another way to play. So is this sort of a workaround to allow people, I mean, so far they haven't banned the importing of game credit from outside platforms? That is correct. And I don't think the future, even in the future, they're going to be able to stop portal sites, like the one I'm talking about. It would be very unethical for them to do that, and I don't think they are going to do that. Are their portal sites already existing like this? I mean, I'm sorry for my ignorance about gaming, but are there already portal sites, like Farmville or any of these games? Do they have a portal site that you can play it outside of Facebook? Absolutely. Actually, Farmville is a perfect example. You can play it on farmville.com, or you can play it on Facebook. So farmville.com is the off Facebook version. Although it used to work like that. I mean, I haven't checked, but it may be that Facebook and Zynga, they have their own agreement, where maybe they are forcing Zynga to not do that. But last time I checked, it was up there. And someone, Akbar in the chat room is saying, is Facebook about to have Facebook credits that are virtual money, but you can only use them on Facebook, and they cannot be exported outside of Facebook. Is that true? Yeah, I believe that is true. I believe that you can only use it in Facebook. So I mean, as a game developer, can you say, no, you have a game on Facebook, but no, we don't want to take Facebook credits. We only want to take our own credits that you can buy on our portal site using Bitcoin. Is that possible? I mean, no. So they're definitely going to enforce that. They're going to enforce the use of Facebook credits on Facebook. When you have your game on Facebook, they're going to enforce the use of Facebook credits. But off of Facebook, I don't think they can do anything about that. Okay, so on Facebook, they can force you to use only Facebook credits to buy. Off of Facebook, they're so far they're not doing anything against it. And so far, they're not doing anything against you importing credits that you bought off site so far. It's just like Apple, so far with a Mac laptop, a MacBook Pro, or a Mac Pro Tower, so far you can still install your own software with a disk or download and buy your own software in the store, but they're trying to go to a Mac store because obviously these companies like the idea of a store where they can force you to buy all their software and charge 30 to 50% for nothing, for absolutely doing nothing, except forcing you to buy it. I heard that as far as from a developer standpoint, the Mac OS X and the iPhone iOSS, iOS that is for the iPhone operating system, basically at the core level, there's no difference between the two operating systems, except for the, of course, the phone interface. But aside from that, the operating system was pretty much identical except for one thing. They forced you to install the software through the Apple App Store and take a 30% cut. They absolutely did not add anything, they just took away the ability to install your own software. So obviously, it's a very profitable business for Apple and obviously Facebook, everybody else is looking at Apple going, wow, they're making big bucks. So I'm sure Facebook wants a piece of that action. They're trying to emulate it maybe. Yeah, I mean, no, it's basically like what you said, there are work around stuff. I don't know if you've heard of HTML5. HTML5 is the new, well, it's going to be the new way of dealing with apps and dealing with web applications, web games on the new browsers. And because those things, like, because HTML5 is going to be working on a browser, and it already works on iPhone and iPad, that actually is a workaround to the 30%. That is a workaround to having apps on your, work on your iPhone without going through the App Store. So I'm pretty excited about HTML5 as well. So HTML5, you're talking about basically the ability to create browser-based apps, right? Yes, that is correct. Okay. And that's what we're doing. Actually, this is the Bitcoin show. And, you know, the hackathon that is a spin-off of our meetup.com, meetup.com slash Bitcoin is our New York City, what do you call it? Bitcoin meetup, meetup, right? And as a spin-off of that, one of the groups is the hackathon that meets every Saturday. And those guys have created the first full app for Bitcoin app for Android. And it's in the Android market by Bitcoin Labs, is what they call themselves, the group of the hackathon. And they're trying now to do the same thing for iPhone. Okay. Except the problem with the iPhone is that it's not allowed in the App Store. So they're doing exactly what you're describing. They're using HTML5 and something JavaScript. I think it's JavaScript. But basically, they're just doing the same thing Google had to do. But basically, it's the same thing everyone has to do. If what you're doing is not approved by Steve Jobs, approved of, then you have to make a browser app. And luckily, that's a workaround that bypasses Apple's censorship. And so that is exciting, because all those people that are still using iPhones will actually be able to benefit from some of these apps, right? Yeah, that is exactly right. It's good and bad. You know, you aren't going to get the benefit of having the advertising on the App Store. But if you have your own advertising, you still get to keep all the profits. Right. I think it's worth it because if the app stands on its own and it's popular, and everyone who has an Android phone is talking about, oh, you've got to try this game or this app, people are going to say, oh, you can't give it. You have an iPhone. Sorry. But wait, you can go to the website. You can still run it through the browser. And people, actually, I think it's really good because the iPhone versus Android crowd, they're going to be able to communicate and say, look at the drawbacks of using an Apple product. And there's no reason technologically except for complete censorship and profit motive. People see through that. I think the public is starting to wake up to what's happening, that Apple's just disabling abilities for their own profit motives. And I wonder, is Facebook going to go that far? Are they going to absolutely lock it down so that you can only do things on Facebook? Do you see that happening? So I think to an extent, they probably will as well. They've got to think about their bottom line as well. But Facebook, to me, they're more into trying to expand their network and trying to, I think, trying to reach a billion users by the end of this year. At least, that's what I've heard. So if you're trying to reach a lot of users, you're going to do that by trying to put as little restrictions as possible. I'm sorry to interrupt. Joseph Stolling in the chat room says, Apple is disabling stuff to gain profit while Google is making stuff free and open to gain users. And that's exactly what you're saying. It's just a different business model, a different strategy. Yeah, that's exactly right. And Facebook can't afford to give up any kind of a market share to Google, especially with Google Plus that just came out, right? So it's going to be very interesting what happens with that. But I don't see Facebook doing the same thing as what Apple did. Yeah. So Facebook is probably going to have to, they're looking more towards Google as the competitor in social. So they're going to have to, Google is really setting the bar of openness that they're going to have to rise to or maintain a competitive advantage with Google. Meanwhile, Apple is backpedaling a bit because, you know, legal threats from European Union and whoever, they back down and now actually allowed Google to have Google voice and some of the other apps that they've prohibited in the past, suddenly they're okay in the app store. No apparent explanation or reason. They just backpedaled probably under fear of legal recourse. Yeah. And the thing is, you know, I mean, even from the restrictions, like the restriction standpoint, just take Flash, for instance. The fact that Flash doesn't even work properly, if at all, on the iPhone. Right. But it works pretty well on Android phones. So that itself is a pretty big deal because there are a lot of games apps right now that are Flash based that will work on your droid phone, but will not work on your iPhone. It has an EVO, an HTC EVO, and I am just amazed at how well the Flash works. It's just like, wow, it's just a little PC. It's just absolutely brilliant to hear the audio and video multimedia work so well on that really beautiful screen. And then, I mean, does Flash work at all on an iPhone? I didn't think they have Flash at all. I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I think they kind of try to appease some of the lash back from people that were upset because Flash wasn't working on iPhone. Right. They kind of reached a middle solution, but that didn't work out. I don't think it works on the latest Flash. I really haven't seen Flash work on the iPhone at all, actually. Yeah. Well, maybe it will someday. Maybe eventually Apple, probably Apple will back down and start allowing some of these things eventually. But by the time they do, they will have lost so much market share that Apple won't even matter in the phone market. I said, I'm sorry to interrupt. I said this a year ago. I said, mark my word. It won't be long. In a year or two, people are going to say, remember when Apple used to make phones? That's my prediction. And this is before the explosion of Android. I think that that's going to happen because they're always revolutionary with the new user interface that's absolutely brilliant. And everybody said, well, yes, of course that's the way a phone should be. But when they just totally become the tyranny of your machine and block you from using it for what you bought it for, and it's your computer, that your handheld computer that you bought, and they say, no. You can't run that software. No. You can't look at that picture. No. You can't do this or you can't do that. Because we want, first of all, we want our profit, even on the things we do allow you to see. And we decide what you can see and what you can't see on your own handheld computer. That doesn't fly for long. The public gets educated and they're like, I don't think so. You know what? I'm going to make another choice where I can actually do a whole lot more and cost a whole lot less. And that's what happens. Yeah, no. I fully agree. It's almost like they're loaning you or they're giving you a lease to your system. Yeah. Hardware as a service. Hardware lease. It's actually our phone. You just rented it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the new terms of service on the new phones, that you don't actually own the phone. You just pay for it with your service your cell phone bill every month for month after month. Long after the device is paid for. You're still actually paying for the device with those contracts with AT&T. The world's worst, you know. Anyway, it's crazy. More than any other service provider. Yeah. I mean, it's just horrible. Horrible, horrible service. But you're locked into it with a contract to AT&T and you're paying for the phone over and over and over again. But yet it's really not effectively your phone because Steve says no. You can't look at that. You can't run this and so on. And just bragging about how many apps they have and it's kind of pretty much all irrelevant now. And obviously, you know, it's coming true exactly as I predicted. A lot of people did. So Facebook though is a different animal because Facebook is not a hardware manufacturer and they're social. And they're only, is it true that like they're only real big threat competitively is Google? Yeah. I would say right now it is just Google. Although we'll see what happens with the whole, you know, MySpace buyout and everything. But I really think that their big threat right now is Google. Do you see Apple blocking games that can import credit from a portal site? So I don't know the answer to that. It wouldn't surprise me if they tried to do something like that. Right now, for instance, you know, Apple is like I can have an app on Facebook and I can have an app on Apple. And they kind of still work somewhat well together. Just they enforce the payment system. They say that well, on Apple, you better have the payment system be, you know, Apple or other than that, I haven't seen anything else. But I wouldn't surprise me if they tried to block. Well, as long as it's as you got a browser based alternative, then it really makes Apple's tyranny and their decisions irrelevant. As long as they don't block the internet itself and they don't block you from going to a web page, then hopefully, and they don't block JavaScript and HTML5 and all that, the capabilities of HTML5, then it really makes Apple irrelevant in the picture. Then as long as you can get there with a working browser, it really makes them irrelevant. And then you're just back to dealing with Facebook and Google and the game itself. The game itself should stand on its own. And if you can get to it through the portal, then you get through it through a web link portal and buy credit with Bitcoin. Now, do you see Bitcoin being a real big player in buying game credits? I actually do. I think I think Bitcoins and just the whole, you know, concept of a decentralized currency system, I see that being a very, very big player in this decade, actually. And so how do you feel about the, you know, people talk a lot about the volatility and the value of Bitcoin, although in the short term, it can be, you know, it can be worth whatever, you know, $30 on one day and $15 two days later, as we've seen. But overall, if you look at the a little bit, zoom out just a little bit. I mean, if you look at day by day, hour by hour, it can, it is volatile. Oh, if you look at the value a month at a time, though, it's basically up, up, up, up, up, you know, so is that a problem when it comes to spending Bitcoin for things like games? Well, I think that as long as we have some kind of a system that allows you to, you know, directly convert Bitcoins to cash, I think it kind of alleviates that issue. Obviously, otherwise, volatility would be somewhat of a concern. Have you, what's your perception from the first time we talked, which was a while back, until now, as to everything that's happened, as far as the developments of the new sites, notice the new sites like BTCnearMe.com and so on, where you can actually meet up with local people right in your zip code and meet them, you know, and buy Bitcoin for cash or cash for Bitcoin and so on, or, and also the new exchange sites like Trade Hill, and also the hacking of Mt. Gox and all that. What's your take on everything that's happened since the first time we talked? Yeah, I mean, it's just grown so much since then. You know, I see this actually being totally the right direction. You know, having vendors, having, sorry, independent brokers, you know, having these kind of systems in place that allow you to transfer back and forth Bitcoins to exchange back and forth between Bitcoins and US dollars or whatever currency that you're dealing with. I mean, it's a really, really strong, strong thing for promoting Bitcoin. I think that's a very, very good thing, and I think it's come a very long way since we last spoke. You know, speaking of that, I think I agree with you completely, and this is something I want to tell the audience and you too, that I know from my personal experience being here in New York City, New York City is full of talented people, actors, singers, musicians, and all sorts of super talented people. They come here to, you know, make it on Broadway or whatever, whatever it is that they come here to pursue their dreams, right? Well, meanwhile, they're waiting tables. You know, of course, they've got to pay that exorbitant rent, we're here in Manhattan to live on this little island. So that's the cliché is, you know, I'm an actor, singer, dancer. I really want to produce, but I'm waiting tables, really. And what, believe it or not, I've seen this trend over and over and over among my personal acquaintances that learn about Bitcoin. Of course, they learn about it from us and the show and all the media coverage and what's a Bitcoin and all that, that my friends say, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin, that's all you talk about. But here's what's happened. Several of them have decided to become independent Bitcoin brokers. So they list themselves, you know, on like bitcoinme.com, there's a buy, sell tab and there's a, you know, under the buy, sell tab, there's option one. And it tells you the different websites that you can list yourself on. And also the bitcoin.org forums and all those things. They list themselves on all those places, including Craigslist, even eBay, everywhere. They list themselves all the places as an independent Bitcoin broker or dealer or exchanger or whatever you want to call it. And they're actually charging a commission, you know, they can charge 5%, 8%, 10%, whatever it is and they're busy. They are busy and they're making more money than they were at their part-time gig, you know, waiting tables. They're literally able to quit their job and have more time to pursue what they really want to do. And they've made a business out of selling Bitcoin. Most people are buying Bitcoin. So usually it's people looking to buy Bitcoin. It's just not immediately available. They want to buy it now. They don't wait two days because the price is going up or whatever. So they want to buy, buy, buy. And occasionally, someone will need the money right away and they want to sell. So these guys have it down. It's super. It's really easy actually. They just, you know, trade hill and so on. But for people who are not knowledgeable, there's a huge contingency of brand new people who just read it in, you know, Forbes or Business Week or whatever, Wall Street Journal and they want to buy Bitcoins today and they're buy. How do I buy it today? So these people are actually making a lot of money. And I have even friends in Nashville, Tennessee, all over the place. And they're the closest local Bitcoin dealer. And they're getting people calling them from England. It's just a crazy time right now. So people can make a lot of money just as a part-time Bitcoin broker. Yeah, I, you know, that's why I think that it is a system like this, a contingency system like this is the future, you know, and it's going to be like the currency of this decade, I think. I mean, like the thing that people are going to be talking about for this decade. And, you know, there's so much potential. I'm very excited for the future of Bitcoins for sure. Now, have you worked on any projects specifically around this? Because I know when we had our first conversation, you know, we were brainstorming or like, you know, literally, you know, he called, actually, you sent me an email and I had fallen asleep on the sofa and I was just like groggy and I heard my phone go beep or whatever. And I looked at it, it was an email and I just replied and said, yeah, you know, we'll call me tomorrow or whatever. And then you replied right away. And I was like, wait a minute, you're awake. So I said, call me right now. You know, so he called me, it was like 2am your time, I guess three, or no, what, it would be 2am your time, 5am my time. But we talked for five hours from 5am to 10am my time. And we were so excited. We were just like kids on the phone. And just brainstorming and talking about all the possibilities that Bitcoin has. Have you pursued any of those? Is anything in the works that you're able to talk about yet? Or what's been going on in the, like, what is your company working on right now? So yeah, actually, what we've been focusing right now on is launching our game on Facebook. I believe you have the URL. And that is the game that we are going to try and incorporate Bitcoins in. So it seems like the perfect thing to try and go after, which was trying to integrate Bitcoins along with our payment systems. The game is called Master Dealer. The game is called Master Dealer. So it's apps.facebook.com slash Master Dealer. Yep, yep, it is that. And of course you can search for Master Dealer on Facebook as well. And yeah, it's right now playable on Facebook. It doesn't have Bitcoins integrated yet, but we really look forward to trying to integrate that as soon as possible. What kind of a game is Master Dealer? It sounds like a card game. It actually is a card game. It's very much like if you've played any of the magic gathering type of games. It's like that. But it got a little bit of monopoly in there as well. And it's also similar to Mafia Wars in some ways as well. So it's a pretty unique game. And we think it's actually pretty fun. Cool, cool, cool. And so right now what you can buy credits through Facebook, but soon you'll be able to use Bitcoin. That is the plan. That's the plan. Okay, very cool, very cool. And so do you have to buy credits to play it? Or is it? No, it's a game that's free to play. If you want a much better experience or be able to get ahead, it's kind of the same way as Zynga games really. You pay for both things. You pay for additional things. But the game is very much free to play and you should be able to get pretty far ahead in the game just by not paying or just playing it normally. So you play the game for free and then what do you need to buy Bitcoin or what do you need to buy again? Oh, if you wanted to buy more advanced card packs or if you wanted to special limited edition items in the game. Once that just kind of give you that extra user experience feel, just a better feel for the game. Maybe get ahead faster in the game. Those things that you would probably pay for with Bitcoin. It's not a gambling game though, like a card game. It's not a gambling game. Oh, darn. What about gambling games? Are they going to come? Well, I fully see huge potential in gambling games like poker, casinos, online casinos, using Bitcoins. I think it's perfect because it's very easy transactions and you get paid out right away. So it's great. It's one of those things that's explicitly legal in many places, explicitly illegal in other places. But wherever it's legal, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it, right? Oh, yeah, there's no reason. In fact, that's what that's another thing that we're currently pursuing as well. We're currently pursuing the casino angle as well. It's much for the reasons you just mentioned, which is it is illegal for US players to play poker, for instance. In Europe, you could play, but in the United States, you really can't. You can't go online and play for real money. I don't know if maybe there might be one or two sites, but from the last time I checked, it was illegal for US players to play. Gambling is legal in many places, like Detroit and Vegas and Reno and so on. Are they allowed to play online in vicinities, like in the county where gambling is legal? Are they allowed to play online in that location? I don't know how that would work. I think that it's not legal for them to play online, but that's from what I know about it. It's probably impossible or nearly impossible for them to prove that they are in that jurisdiction at the time they're playing, or maybe it has to do with the fact that it's connecting to servers that are crossing state lines or something like that. You go through any of the poker sites right now, like Foltilt or whatever, they will tell you, okay, well, we do not cater to US players at this time. You will have to play for free money, just pay money. So that's kind of one of the reasons why I feel like it is legal for a US player to play. Okay, so yeah, I mean, it's a crazy, crazy, crazy, laws are crazy anyway. I mean, some of these things, the fact that it's legal and then you cross the county line and now it's not, a lot of it is about licensing and so on, but bizarre. So obviously, it's a technology that would work really well for that in all the jurisdictions and countries on earth where it is legal. So have you seen that, I mean, do you see that really taking off developers developing gambling games for real money, but real money in the sense of using Bitcoin as opposed to a currency issued by a government? Oh, absolutely. I fully see that being the direction that many developers are going to start going towards. I mean, it makes perfect sense. I remember when I used to play online poker, when it was legal for me to play before they cracked down, it was interesting. The whole process was, I'd put in my credit card and I'd go ahead and deposit money, but when it came time for me to get paid out, it took a while before that thing was processed and it makes sense. They have to make sure the credit card transaction was valid and only then they can really pay out, but sometimes it just took a risk and they gave you the money after like a week or something like that. I'm sorry, go ahead. But I don't see that problem, I mean, I see that problem completely going away when you deal with the currency like Bitcoin because you should be able to get paid out right away. There's no problem with that. It's like, oh, okay, you made this money, here this is it and it should be instantaneous. It's like, oh, it's back into your account right away. It's one of those things I think of it as a blessing in disguise because the fact that the government of the United States and others can crack down on the money transmittal business of it, the MasterCard visas and the banks to say, okay, we're going to block payments for this type of industry that we don't approve of and so they're just basically cutting off the income is actually a blessing to the industry because in reality what happens is they just work around it. It's like the internet itself. It's like censorship on the internet as an analogy. Censorship on the internet as I read somewhere, it's not my quote, but censorship is viewed by the internet as an error and the internet by its nature routes So similarly, when MasterCard and Visa is shut down from processing payments to sites that the government of the United States doesn't approve of for whatever reason, even if it is legal in that city or whatever, what happens is they have to find an alternate way to do it. So Bitcoin could be that alternate way and if these sites especially, it'll probably start in places like Europe or wherever gambling is absolutely legal explicitly, they'll start a gambling site and they'll accept Bitcoin, they'll have a meeting. I'm surprised that these sites took MasterCard and Visa in the first place because MasterCard and Visa can reverse the payment six months later, same with PayPal, but with Bitcoin, they don't have that problem and then there's no transaction fees and it's gonna be much more profitable for everybody. No, I agree. This is why I feel like a decentralized currency system. It pretty much is like cash online. You can't stop somebody from giving somebody 10 bucks in real life. Why should you be able to stop them online? And that's why I feel like Bitcoin is just that. It allows you to do just that. We're talking about using Bitcoin for all sorts of multi-platform games and social games and gambling in places where that's legal and so forth. Do you see Bitcoin really grabbing the public and really taking hold like the way Facebook has? Facebook has become, obviously, it's beyond a household word. Facebook has just become an integral part of modern culture. Do you see that happening to Bitcoin fast enough? Well, first of all, do you see that happening to Bitcoin at all? And do you see it happening fast enough that it will just, everybody will be using Bitcoin. It'll be ubiquitous before these banks and governments and people who have control to lose will be able to respond. So yes, my opinion is that the more players, like gaming companies and more number of these apps that take strictly Bitcoins or they take Bitcoins, that's going to definitely increase the user base of Bitcoins. It's going to get Bitcoins spreading to more people. More people are going to start using them. And I think it's just going to reach a viral stage at that point. It's going to viral. And as a result, it's going to reach way more users than currently it has. And it's going to become more mainstream. In order for that to happen, we need way more users for Bitcoins. And I think gaming is one of them. Gambling will be another one. So it's just a matter of time, I think. But I agree with you. I actually think that it will happen. It will happen where it hits mainstream. I don't know when, but I think within this decade for sure. So yeah, obviously Angry Birds and Farmville, even if you're not into gaming, these are definitely household words that everyone knows. And as Bitcoin becomes that, the faster Bitcoin becomes a household word that everybody knows and not only knows, but actually they actually start using it as these apps develop and progress and get more and more sophisticated. Because I know there's development projects happening like 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Millions of developers are working on all kinds of amazing, exciting new applications and ways to use Bitcoin. As these roll out, faster and faster and faster, and Bitcoin really grabs the public to the point where everybody is using Bitcoin as like text messaging. Just everybody knows how to do it and they all, everybody uses it. Even if they have an objection at first, it ends up that just everybody uses it and that's just the way it's done. As that happens, if it happens quickly enough, then I just think that that's really key. If it really becomes prevalent fast enough and saturates the public's consciousness and the public psyche about how we do business in life globally, not just in one country, but absolutely around the earth. It doesn't matter if you're traveling from Canada to the US to Mexico to Europe to Asia. A Bitcoin is a Bitcoin is a Bitcoin. Whether you're traveling or just the Bitcoins are traveling, it's electronic. As it becomes so prevalent, there really won't be anybody, not only technologically, but there really won't be anybody who will be able to take it away from the people because the people will revolt. If you try to take away email and internet and text messaging and cell phones from people, there would be riots. Yeah, exactly. You take YouTube, for instance. You can't really stop people from putting up free education, for instance. You can't really stop people from doing that. You can't really stop people from giving away services for free, consulting, whatnot, on YouTube. Take BitTorrent, for instance. You can't really stop people from sharing applications, sharing software. You can't really do that. You can try, take even music sharing online. You can't really stop it. You can't really stop it if there's no central server. If everything is decentralized, you can't really stop it. As a result, I really feel like currency, if it's decentralized in this mechanism, you can't really stop it. I think it's just a matter of time before people they have full trust in Bitcoins, and then it's just a factor of just using it. There's a lot of talk about how people believe Bitcoin cannot be stopped technologically because of its peer-to-peer nature and completely decentralized, distributed, and all that. There's that, which is often discussed. At the same time, there's a whole other reason that Bitcoin, I think, can't be stopped. It's in the mind of the people. Once people have it, and they get used to it, and it's just that everybody has the Bitcoin app on their phone, everybody transacts business with Bitcoin, they say, oh, I need to send you 100 bucks, whatever, whatever, and they just send it through Bitcoin. You want to send the kids and the grandkids a Christmas present, you send them a Bitcoin. As it becomes really, really prevalent that everybody is using Bitcoin for basically everything because it's so convenient, it's more convenient than email, then as soon as everybody understands that and they start using it, I think that nobody will be able to take it away from the people because, first of all, even if they could technologically, I mean, the people would really, really object. They'll say, no, don't take away my, don't mess with my Bitcoin, don't mess with my internet, don't mess with my cell phone and my text messaging and my email, and don't mess with my Bitcoin. Yeah, no, I very particularly agree with that statement. And another thing that also helps is, as games, for instance, as they get more and more viral, as more and more people start seeing the use of Bitcoins, it gets into our everyday lives. There's that huge trust established, and I just see it being a matter of time for people really start bracing Bitcoins. But every new thing that comes into using Bitcoins, that helps. And it helps everyone in a very symbiotic way. So it's a really cool time to be feeling the Bitcoins right now. Yeah, I think it's a really cool time to be alive with just all the advances in the internet and the technologies and the phones and the Bitcoin. I mean, it's just like, what's next? It's so, so cool. I want to take a break really quick though and again thank our sponsors. You guys in the Bitcoin world, this growing community that seems to be doubling in size every week, we're here for you every weekday, Monday through Friday at 2pm Eastern time. And I don't know, don't ask me to quote it in GMT, but you know it's global. This is a global show. We have audience in Asia and Europe and Africa and South America everywhere. And we know you're there and we're here for you. And the reason we're here for you, the reason we can be here for you, who's paying for all this, all the lights and everything that we need to make this happen is our sponsors. So contact them and thank them. Even if you're not in the market for whatever it is that product or service they're selling, call them up and thank them and let them know that you appreciate sponsoring only one TV, all the shows that we're rolling out on only one TV, including the Bitcoin show. Every weekday, Monday through Friday, 2pm Eastern time. And in Spanish language, weekly on Wednesdays at 4pm Eastern is El Shoda Bitcoin. And we want to thank Carpe Veeam. Carpe Veeam video marketing, they'll help you create the most professional video. They'll script it. They'll, from beginning to end, they'll make you look like a pro and help you sell your product or service online by creating a custom video that explains and, and sells whatever it is that you're selling. So seize your market as they say, say it with video, Carpe Veeam, C-A-R-P-E-V-M dot com and Mezzy Grill, of course, our favorite authentic Mediterranean food meets modern flavor. It's really delicious as most of their ingredients are organic and they're all as much as possible. They're locally grown sustainable sources and things like that. Super healthy. It's kind of like an upscale Chipotle, except it's not Mexican. It's, it's Mediterranean food, but super, super delicious one of a nice favorite places. And that's why Marwan over there, we're, you know, became a great friend from because we went there all the time and told him about Bitcoin and now he's the, he's getting all kinds of media attention. Every day, there's some major media over there interviewing him. In fact, I got a text on the way in about from a buddy of mine who was at Mezzy Grill buying lunch with Bitcoin and right behind him in line were two reporters from NPR who were buying lunch with Bitcoin and they're like, oh my gosh, you're ahead of me in line and you're buying with your lunch with Bitcoin too. So they tried to interview him and these two NPR reporters were just here yesterday during the taping of our show yesterday, buying the $40 worth of Bitcoin from me. So they could go over to Mezzy Grill and have lunch today. It's a small world, but they're getting all kinds of attention because they're the world's first restaurant accepting Bitcoin right there at the cash register. So thank Mezzy Grill and tradehill.com. Where do you get Bitcoins? Well, if you, if you don't have anybody locally that you can find to buy and sell and trade today, just do it online without even leaving home. Tradehill.com. Use this referral code. You get 10% off of their, their minuscule little fees anyway, but you get 10% off for life. So why not? Just type it in. When you sign up, it's TH-R141 on your screen there. TH as in tradehill-R, like referral 141, TH-R141, tradehill.com. Thank those guys. Send them an email and thank them for supporting the Bitcoin show and U.S. Gold Coins. Andy Gauss is the host of the Real World of Money, major, major national radio show twice a week. And he's moving the Wednesday program here to Only One TV. So starting, I think the Wednesday after next, he's going to be the Real World of Money will be hosted right here on Only One TV. And he's the owner of U.S.GoldCoins.com. And this is how we know him because he is our trusted advisor for investments in numismatic gold and silver coins, which means rare. It just means rare U.S. Gold and silver coins as an investment because you don't want to put all your coins in one basket. So don't keep everything in one type of investment. I'm going to diversify a bit. He is the world renowned expert, in my opinion, on money in general, and especially rare gold and silver coins. And he's very honest, very, very trustworthy. I mean, we wouldn't have any of these guys as a sponsor if we didn't believe in them. So thank them all for supporting us. And as we do. So let's see. Tell us more. What are your predictions about or what are your thoughts about the value of Bitcoin and how that has or hasn't been affected, Neil, with this Mount Gox fiasco? I don't actually think that it's really going to be that affected. I think that these things happen. You know, these things happen on the web. I mean, sites get hacked. These things happen. I don't think it should really matter at all. And it didn't really affect the value. If you look at the actual value, I think it was somebody said it was 1748 right before the crash. And, you know, it's like about 17 right now. It really has almost had negligible effect on the value. I mean, it hasn't been doubling in value every week like it had been, but it really has barely gone down in value in spite of what would normally, like imagine if there were one bank in the world that had 90% of the online exchanges, right? Like what would that be? Like New York Stock Exchange? Imagine if the New York Stock Exchange was hacked and the price of all the stocks went to one penny, right? And the private credentials of every single person on the Stock Exchange were disclosed. I mean, you think that would have an effect on the US dollar and the value? It's just shocking that it hardly affected the value of Bitcoin at all. Reporters are not even talking about how proven how stable the Bitcoin value has been in spite of this hack. Yeah, it is actually pretty cool that it managed to stay stable. That shows that there's a lot of users, there's a lot of people backing Bitcoins right now, which is very, very good for Bitcoin. It spells for a very solid future, I think. Yeah, I think the, you know, the, like I say, the, I guess the fearful investors who are just dabbling in it, they immediately panic sell at the first sign of anything, and they probably are the only ones who got out. But the intelligent, I mean, I guess I would say the thoughtful investors who've really researched and understand Bitcoin are just saying, wow, Bitcoin's on sale, it's a good time to buy. They just realize that the big, you know, the value of Bitcoin is really in the future. It's not in the, you know, it's not in the day trading. You definitely, I don't recommend day trading in anything, but especially not Bitcoin. But if you're going to hold it long term, like a month, you know, I tell my friends, if you're going to buy Bitcoin, don't look at the price every day, just look at it once a month. You'll be very happy overall so far. That would be true. Yeah. I mean, it spiked at $30, but, you know, give me a break. I mean, if you look at the value, just, you know, the first of every single month, that would be an interesting chart. Somebody create that, the value of a Bitcoin on the first of every month, that's the chart you want to look at, not every day, not every minute. So, you know what, we're out of time, Neil. I talk too much. I need to let you talk more. We're going to have you on again because I think this is really fun. It's a, the whole gaming industry is massive, massive industry. And I think Bitcoin is going to play a real key role in it. And so are you. I mean, the master dealer game is on Facebook, looks brilliant, and I can't wait to play it. Maybe this long holiday weekend I'll actually get a chance to do something fun. And I'll definitely check it out. So, thanks for joining us, Neil. Thanks for having me, Bruce. All right. We'll do it again soon. And thanks for tuning in, you guys. We were actually going to tape a special show tonight from somebody abroad in Australia, and that's a secret, but tune in tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern. We're going to do a special show. And otherwise, it's normally 2 p.m. Eastern Monday through Friday, right here on OnlyOneTV. Thanks for joining us. Take care. Bye.