 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by mr. Mark Riley CEO and president of the Washington Tattoo mark welcome to the show Thanks Bart. It's a pleasure to be here this morning. Yeah. Oh man. This is well first off I want to thank Andrew Cappicello for connecting us He obviously works with prologix percussion the practice pads and as a great guy. So Thanks, Andrew. So yeah mark. I was explaining to you before this is so Such an interesting topic It's it's really one of those ones where I got this message and I had to Google it like I didn't know what a tattoo was I don't know anything about it and then I found out how Big and popular they are and how much of a legend you are It's an honor I mean it's interesting to think about the idea of tattoo right because the first thing that comes to mind obviously is ink and Tattoos on drum set players and lead guitarists and everything else But the term tattoo has a ton of history Especially when it comes to military music military drumming rudimental drumming But it's actually a Dutch term. So actually when I was you know, obviously listen to the podcast and your last name I was like, I wonder if Bart's gonna have he has to have a Dutch last name. It is. Yeah So the actual term is dough done taptoe is the old Dutch term and that goes back into the 1400s and it literally means to turn off the taps So it was a military signal to the tavern keepers to turn off the taps and send all the soldiers back to home to the home They're home or their barracks or their their encampment. So the term tattoo taptoe turns to tattoo in the English language And it becomes this call across all military installations at the end of each night So historically speaking, it's a it's a military call that goes back hundreds of years But really where it kind of finds its renaissance is after World War two so after World War two the world is trying to figure out how to get back on its feet again and The British military decides that they want to do this military spectacle at the end of each night and so 1949 there was this kind of small military performance in front of the Edinburgh Castle in Scotland and In 1950 they kind of reorganize it and they make it really the formal Edinburgh military tattoo which becomes this giant spectacle later on down the road with you know bagpipers and Highland dancers and military bands from across the world and most recently About seven eight years ago. It could be about ten years ago now. It became it has royal status So now it is the royal military at Royal Edinburgh military tattoo. Wow Man, that's cool So and just to clarify like when you say turn off the taps I mean, are you talking about like a beer tap like the literal the beer tap or the whiskey tap? Whatever they had in their barrels It was the liquor for the night was to turn off the liquor send the guys home probably they've had a little too much to drink but Reveley is gonna come very early in the morning and Reveley would be the next call after the tap the tap-toe Wow, okay, and then you said 1949 right the British army starts to Popularize it True. Yeah, there was always a type of military Formation at the end of each night in front of the Edinburgh Castle and so the Scots royal Dragoons guards were a very famous group that had a has a great bagpip or a band that's there And so there was a type of Kind of show kind of ceremony that was happening, you know throughout, you know the time before it was officially organized But it was 1949 into 1950 the Royal Edinburgh military tattoo really comes into play, but wow That was the military side of the house The civilian side of the house is also quite interesting because little tiny towns all throughout Holland in the Netherlands You really start to see these town squares have these evening performances that they still call tap-toes So if you go to Amsterdam if you go to Leiden if you go to the Hague any of these places in in in the Netherlands The tap-toe which they still call a tap-toe obviously Has quite a bit of longevity inside of these smaller towns and communities Geez, that's fascinating now What does it like so I've said this every time I do an episode like this on the show where again my background is not in this Kind of world. I love learning about it, especially something like this where it's just like to me It's like again, how have I not even heard of this? It's just fascinating now What it would it look like like let's say 1949 1950 kind of that we'll call it I guess more of the modern era How many drummers what instrumentation I mean is are there you know, you said bagpipes are there like You know fife. I mean what what does it look like at that point? So I mean early early on You have to think of kind of what the military music scene would have looked like back then so Two different types of military music exist There's the field music which are your pifers and drummers and your bagpipes and drums Over in the UK. They call that type of system the core of drums So you have a bagpipe band, but then your fife's and drums are going to be considered the core of drums But that's still all the field music which was their job was to relay signals So they were on the battlefield. They were relaying signals. That was their job The other side of the house was the bands So the military bands were historically paid for by the officers to have kind of more higher class music Being played in the camp. So when you're talking about military bands today You talk about the president's own Pershing zone with the US Army band the US Navy band those things That type of wind band or brass band would have been the higher kind of higher class type of music for the military so instrumentation in 1949 1950 It's really gonna be this kind of field music because the bagpipe groups are also attached to Highland dancing So pipe bands Highland dancing you're talking about kilts and the tartans and all of that kind of stuff and They have a sword dance so they would literally have a dance where two swords were crossed and an X on the ground and There would be usually between two and four military members Dancing through this sword dance and there's a lot of history And the meaning behind the sword dance as you know ceremonial, but also it it acted as entertainment So 1949 they're trying to bring this concept of a rich history of military traditions This field music thing, but obviously you're talking 1940s 1950s The big rage has been big band has been yeah, you know jazz and everything else What was being played on by the the soldiers with the USO and Bob Hope and all that kind of stuff? You're really thinking you're gonna have a band element that's gonna bring an audience to a show So they combine the idea of this traditional field music and ceremony with this concept of band Which historically would have been separate field music and bands But now yet the Edinburgh tattoo you start to see this commit this combination of this traditional field music With the modern-day era bands so you would have had some jazz bands You would have had marching marching ceremonial bands and around this time You do start getting the beginnings of the army blues the jazz ambassadors like those types of groups starting to become Part of the military band system So during this timeframe, it's really interesting because a lot of Technology is starting to come around obviously with the drum scene But also the military is trying to figure out how to deploy this new technology in the military music world Yeah So many things come to mind there so Real quick before we move on I want to ask a question about what you said before so you said the officers would pay for it Mm-hmm. I mean that's nuts like out of their own pocket or like out of their budget So that's the very interesting thing is when you go to different military organizations the Structure of what is paid for is very very different and it's usually based on cultural diplomacy So if you go to the military that's in the UK a lot of that money is coming from you know Obviously, there's taxpayer dollars. There's money that's supported with the funding from the crown So if you have royal status that means something different than being you know In a regular regimen and the same thing kind of happens in the States You have things that are coming out of a budget, but then there are stipends You have stipends that can take care of different things So if you have liaison officers, you know working out of different places say like the Pentagon or things like that There is money that's allocated so that they can link up with strategic partners, you know from other countries So this idea of diplomacy is is goes back obviously, you know thousands of years But in military music the field music was paid for and if you go into the tax records You can actually see X amount of drummers were paid X amount of money at this rank X amount of drums were purchased on this hand receipt and you can go through it and Library of Congress has this stuff. It's very interesting to kind of dig up But the bands themselves were not technically paid for by the military in the US Army at least It was the officers who ended up having to pay it out of their own pocket to have that higher level of performance gosh, I Remember learning on an episode about civil war drummers. So obviously a different much different era than you know 1950 but about how I think it was I Can't I might have been Lincoln, but it was it was about how the He basically Really pushed that hate like the musicians right now sound terrible like it was a bunch of rag tag like right, you know kids Who it's their goal was you know, it was to it was to you know signal things in battle But I think he pushed really the like we need to sound better. We need to be uniform. We look horrible So I mean, I guess if you're an officer and you want to put that money and it makes your regiment look really good And then maybe you can achieve that royal status. Yeah, I mean if you think about it It's all about how proud you can be like you want to be proud of your service You want to be proud of how your uniform looks? You want to be proud of how you look when you march down the street So if you're marching down the street and you're you know marching to a rag tag beat You can't have an obvious beat for your left foot to strike the ground with all of your soldiers You're gonna want to have that quality Yeah, well, which is I think very interesting just to hit on one another point on this I'm a music educator at heart. I Love the concept of how music can change the lives of pretty much anybody who breathes air But for me this discussion of the Civil War like upgrade if you will of music quality You start to have a lot of these military drummers start to craft rudimental lessons and you've got the Ashworth book you've got the the Howe book in the Bruce and Emmett book that comes around You know in the 1800s, but what's really interesting is if you start looking at the lessons and the lesson plans You can start looking at how the military structure starts to craft how music education Develops because of these lesson plans and how do you teach drumming? How do you teach rudimental drumming? I think you know that push by Lincoln Really does set a tone later on of how do you create a military music school? And then how do we start to branch that out into you know what later becomes public school education? Hmm? Wow fascinating So a question that popped into my mind is and this might be done, but like what what are these so? 1949 Europe we are so a couple years earlier World War two What would these guys was there any involvement of obviously this isn't you know the 1800s where they're marching and signaling things There's there's pretty much modern warfare to a degree. You know what I mean different than right, you know Muskets and stuff. What would these guys be doing during wartime? That's a great question So at some point and I don't know the exact date of this But the US military starts to get rid of the idea of fives and drums and field music So we can pretty much say there's some National Guard recordings on wax reels that are from around 1908 1910 somewhere in there but the fives and drums kind of go away from the idea of the US military and So at that point they start bringing music back into the fold really as you are just a musician starting probably the 1920s 1930s the combatants own Marine drum and bugle core I think is started in 1937 and their job is to play music now That's different from country to country the current core of drums for the British army Their actual job during war is to be a machine gunner on the top of the Humvees and tanks so they are part of the machine gun platoons machine gun battalions and Even to this day when they're not playing bagpipes and they're going to Iraq and Afghanistan They're on the top of the turret with machine guns Doing doing their thing and so it's it's it's part again of them being very proud of their history And being a part of the fighting force But it's different from one country to the next so when you're going to one of these tattoos You're playing in the formation say for the final performance. You have what they call the mast bands So they have the mast pipes and drums and they have the mast bands and literally this spectacle is incredible And I encourage people to go on to YouTube Go look up the Edinburgh tattoo look up the Basel tattoo and see these formations because you'll see hundreds of musicians in this formation playing these tunes and You know things like amazing grace with this with the lone Piper and honoring the fallen It's it's a very powerful powerful statement, but yeah, you're standing next to you know a guy who's maybe had five combat tours in Iraq and has seen things that only you know only You know the very few of us could imagine what you know What's going through the eyes of those folks and you're there playing music with them But that's kind of a that's a soother of the soul being out there and playing that music Allows them to forget those crazy things that they witnessed Man, it's it's fascinating that it's It's so it's designated that these guys are going to be machine gunners like that's what you're gonna do Wow, there's two guys. I'd love to mention their dear friends of mine And they've both been in the London district the palace guards group So Mo Brown is a good friend of mine from Belfast, Ireland Northern Ireland and he grew up in the pipe bands the flute band scene in Northern Ireland So they have a marching culture in Northern Ireland. That's all based on their type of fives and drums But Mo is I think he bounced around more than any other drum major in London so he was the drum major for the Scots guards the drum major for the cold stream guards the drum major for the Irish guards and So Mo had been back and forth to Afghanistan and Iraq several times And you know told me some crazy stories about growing up and being a musician and then going back and forth To Afghanistan and then coming back and performing his first tattoo Was just so it was so medicinal for him to be a part of this positive Cultural thing as opposed to being in the sand and being attacked and the second guy I'd like to mention is a guy named Johnny Stranix Johnny Stranix same thing grew up in the pipe band scene in Northern Ireland not the flute band scene But Johnny is currently a drum major with the Scots guards in London So these are the guys who do the Buckingham Palace changing at the guards If you look them up online, you're gonna see them in the big royal coats in front of the Queen I mean these these guys are you know, they're they're at the top of their field and Yeah, they are part of the machine gun battalion That's gonna go out to Iraq and Afghanistan and then they're gonna come back to garrison and put on the royal coat and March the troops down the parade field man you Now I do but you look at these guys and you don't think that you don't think these are like You know war hardened right, you know men and women. I'm assuming which maybe that's a question Is this obviously I would assume in the in the late 40s 50s Primarily men. Yeah. Yeah, so that would probably that probably change, right? It definitely did. Yeah. Yeah So and that would that changed more along the lines in them in the late 70s and in early 1980s You start seeing a lot more females in the ranks and that was obviously a good thing because it's it's talent It's all talent driven. It's not, you know gender or sex driven But yeah during those days, it was just a very different time and people, you know people's Understanding of what normal was was just different. And so yeah, it was mainly men. It was it was a male dominated field How do you choreograph? Basically the movements. I have no clue how that works Well, it's interesting I mean just like in DCI or WGI today you have a drill designer and they're gonna come up with the concept of what the Formation is supposed to look like at certain hit points of the show So if we call the tattoo really today what it is It's a show and you call the show just like you would call any other kind of show You're gonna have people with sound boards and mixing and microphones and special effects I mean so now the concept of a tattoo is a very high-end High-end performance where you're gonna have musicians with special effects and fireworks and all that kind of stuff So it's definitely upped its game since the 1940s But you're still gonna have somebody who's gonna take the bagpipe portion of the show So they're gonna say all right. You're the you're the the pipe major and you're the drum major Handful of months out from the show They recognize how many members are gonna be on the field And so they start to craft where each member of the masked group is gonna actually be standing So they'll come up with different things usually In terms of some kind of anniversary So they'll find an anniversary that's happened, you know the 75th anniversary of D-Day or Something like that and they'll have some kind of formation that symbolizes That anniversary or that recognition of that event. So they'll have someone and they'll write the drill They usually come out of one location. So they march kind of out of a chute And this is really iconic for the tattoo scene as well is that it's it's an immersive Show so you will have people all the way down. So say a Marching band show is usually in a football stadium The show is usually designed to hit one side of the stadium and the other side is just usually kind of the visitor side Having to see the backs of everybody and kind of that kind of thing. So In a tattoo, you actually will have a Almost in the round kind of performance. So if you can if you picture a hockey arena You're gonna have one portion That's gonna be the backstage and then you're gonna have your two longer sides And then your shorter side is the front and that's typically how most tattoos are organized So people are seeing the sides are seeing the front they're right next to the performer all the way on the way down and so When you see these performers come out They're coming out of this backstage area that they call the chute and they all march together down this column if you look at it Kind of like a hockey like a hockey hockey stadium or a hockey rink. Mm-hmm. Cool You know, you can never underestimate how much any any production how much goes into it like you see the lighting Person the sound person. I mean, it's just like that sounds like a obviously things have got I'm sure a little bit flashier and Bigger in the last 70 years. Well, even even projection right now projection is a huge part of it. And so I mean Would you look at what's able to be projected on? You know the Washington Monument for the Apollo landing that I mean that technology is being deployed Inside of these shows and so when you have a musical unit, you know all of the backstage stuff going on with fireworks and and Smokes smoke signals and smoke screens and everything. It's pretty it's pretty it's pretty exciting. That's awesome Okay, so moving kind of forward here with the actual history of it So it's so neat how you said like You got to put in a perspective like 1949 1950 as being kind of the you know, the newer generation of it Like you said music is I mean people are into rock and roll. This isn't like 1890 where it's like, you know, everyone's it's That kind of music is very popular. I mean, we're not that far from like the Beatles I mean we're like it's not that It's it's very, you know, the hotels there's jazz going on in the hotels and all that stuff So I'm sure that Probably I don't want to say hurt the popularity But they like you said they probably had so they did have jazz that would come in they try and keep up with it Yeah, well you're hitting on a really important topic right now because in every tradition You're gonna have these splits You're gonna have folks who are gonna be die-hard Traditionalists to try to keep the tradition as authentic as it can be to a certain time period and that That's the big that's the biggest challenge of all of this is that what time period? Do you exactly land on to say I'm gonna stick to the tradition of this year? Yeah, because each year there's these small little adjustments that are made to every tradition and the tradition does Contemporize over time and all of a sudden you have people who are gonna really stick to it And then you have people who are gonna give you a little bit more progressive So inside the tattoo scene, which really is in my opinion is a very good thing to reach more people is You'll have the instrumentation stay the same. So you'll have the bagpipes You'll have the marching bands. You'll have the military style of it, but they've brought in guest solo singers You know, they'll bring in someone who's an opera singer and they'll sing amazing grace They'll sing, you know, I vowed to be my country. There's you know, the star-spangled band or things like that but then also they will incorporate certain ballads or Certain rock tunes and they will they will arrange the entire chart Where it builds and it builds and it builds and at the very end the explosion the exploding part of the last chorus is Gonna include the bagpipes. It's gonna include the bands and so I think that's a really smart way To allow a tradition to still exist and yet bring new Life and new blood and new audience members to the actual tradition because it's important to know your history Obviously, yes, but history has got to stay relevant and exciting and accessible To the newest generations and that in itself is an artistic challenge Yeah, yeah, you got to throw like Thunderstruck or something in there every once in a while Yeah, and if you see it that there's a few tattoos that do this really really well So the Royal Edinburgh military tattoo is obviously the granddaddy of the modern tattoo The second largest one is gonna be from Basel, Switzerland and there's a drum group called the top secret drum corps and They like the sticks on fire and they run all over the place and they do some really great stuff And so Eric Juilliard is the producer of the Basel tattoo in Switzerland But he was also a performer and and co-organizer of the top secret drum corps in the late 1990s And so they were another drumming group that started to revolutionize what kind of acts could be involved in the show of a tattoo So they were strictly a drum group and they were people were trying to compare them to the blue devils or some kind of DCI Core, but they were not that kind of group. They were an entertainment group solely for entertaining So maybe a couple roles were definitely not as clean as the blue devils Maybe, you know, the marching was not as perfect as the cadets, but their goal was to entertain a crowd For 30 nights in a row at the Edinburgh show. So the Edinburgh military tattoo is almost the entire month of August Wow, and sometimes they have two a days and they're they're doing a double and so You're thinking you're getting rained on you're the show goes on no matter what and so you have indoor tattoos and outdoor tattoos but most of the big ones are at these outdoor shows and You're out there whether it's raining or it's sunny or it's Sleeting or whatever and so and you know people start to think about the level of quality of you know The music obviously you want it to be very very high But you have to kind of put in perspective what elements are also a part of the production So yeah, it's it's been interesting. So you have the Basel tattoo in the last really big two that I would say that are out There you have one that's the Virginia International Tattoo in the US Which is the the largest one in the United States and then you have the Norwegian military tattoo in Oslo Which is absolutely incredible and they to go back to it They pair up this idea of tradition and modern tunes They put quite a few pop tunes in inside of the show with the bagpipes and the brass bands and everything else That's awesome. I know that like you said in every You know almost in everything in life, there's the purists who go no keep it the same, but I mean you got to be Honest with yourselves where the goal. I mean if you don't do new and modern and fun things I mean it's 2021 you're not gonna get the little kid Super interested and obsessed with the drums and then in 20 years It's not going to be and it's going to diminish and fall apart. So you have to do those Yeah, and I and I agree. I agree 100% I mean being a music educator It's it has to be about the kids because if it's not about the kids You're not investing into what you've worked on your entire career and you have to take those kids under your wing I was very lucky as a kid to grow up in the fife and drum scene And get to play next to guys like bobby redigan less parks eric paralew who are these giants in the new york new jersey drumming scene and My teacher nick antonasio Was in a drum core that was taught by gust molar. So I mean these connections These connections go back and if it wasn't for nick antonasio as a little kid Kind of scooping me up under his wing I would never have the perspective of being able to reach the amount of people that music can reach Yeah Absolutely, which uh, hopefully we're doing that right now. You know what I mean Right this knowledge and getting people to look on youtube and all that but all right, so Let we've talked about the 50s, which again a lot which is an awesome kind of a period in time there How does it change as we go forward? Right globally in the u.s. Um You know, does it have dips in popularity? Is there any cool stuff along the way? Sure? Yeah, so I mean just like anything that is super successful. You have to start looking at Um, there's a great book that I I'm reading right now called built to last Um, and it's this it's uh, Jim Collins who wrote uh, good to great And so this book built to last really brings in the idea of a time teller versus a clock maker So are you somebody that can just read read the clock and tell the time and get really good at it? Which is awesome But are you actually building your company so that it's built to last that it's like a clock and the clock can be Handed off with its systems to the next user and then the next user and the next user and so I think the concept that sits as the you as the u.s. Military as the British military That has been proven that that system works really well And so there's a great combination between the civilian world and the military world So civilian sector military sector and how you combine systems Inside of a show and create artistic development And you're gonna have ups and you're gonna have downs. So throughout the years. I think 1950s 1960s. It really explodes 1970s you start kind of seeing this idea really for the bicentennial And so the american side of the house starts getting really popular with this, you know throwback to tradition So in 1976 at wolf trap, which is the national park for the for the performing arts here in dc Wolf trap hosts the edinboro military tattoo And they don't call it that which is strange and i'm not sure the history behind that But there's an album that exists and I think it's a three and a half maybe four hour long production It's it's an extensive program Um, but they bring over all of these groups from the uk And they combine them with the us military groups. So pershing zone the chorus is singing the fife and drum core is there There's members from, you know, all the different military branches that are there And I think at that point edinboro starts to think about how it can do outreach And so it develops at this point where they've got this great backdrop Which is the edinboro castle. I mean, it's unbelievable to see this thing and they put the show on In front of the castle and people start loving it and it starts getting picked up by pbs so pbs starts showing this show and I know a lot of people if they're listening to us can probably remember watching it at some point on pbs if you've um Been around the pbs scene for a handful of years but then they say what if we took this thing on the road and They decide to start a traveling version of the edinboro military tattoo Which is super super exciting And what they do is they bring a faux backdrop of the castle And they build it in each of the locations that they're going to have this show so, um I honestly, I wish I knew the first one that they did but I think in the 1990s was maybe the first one But in 2005 I was very lucky to go to sydney australia And was able to perform with the top secret drum corps at the edinboro tattoo in australia It was their salute to to australia. So we had 10 shows In sydney australia as part of the military tattoo And they brought something like 1200 performers to this to this show And we were in aussie stadium and each night there were between 45 and 50 thousand spectators coming to see this thing It was absolutely insane. And so you sat there and you Felt this idea of patriotism, but not from an american side of the house You felt it from a uk side of the house which imprinted on me this idea of What it meant to be proud from another point of view and yes That to me I think is the the goal of the tattoo is here are all of these other countries doing it their way and here is what they're proud of So it's it was really really special Um, but I think that traveling version of it has a lot of impact and I know they've brought it to new zealand Um, they've had little small vignettes that have gone to china Um, and they've they've they use it as a tool for diplomacy and it's a really effective tool and the the The internationalness of all of all this is just wild. I mean and and it's honestly it's kind of a beautiful thing where it's like we're all just getting together and It's just it's such a positive Thing are are there there has to be are there rivalries where like different countries and you know Well, I think it's funny. So I think there's two different versions of this. There's the pre internet version and then there's the post internet version Um, so I got a buddy of mine named stewart warmington. He's the marching director for british drum company But stew was a royal marine And stew and I talked for many many years about this and how it actually is set up with When you get to the event you're always kind of checking people out and you're like, hmm What's that group? Hey, who's that? Oh, they got really nice uniforms. Ah, but they can't march all that well They march really well So I mean you definitely have that because it's kind of an olympics, right? It's kind of an olympics of of music and you start seeing these groups representing the best of their country You know, you're there representing the best of your country and I'm very fortunate Having the day job right now. I plan on retiring from the old guard fife and drum corps in the next handful of years So I won't be around there forever But it's allowed me and provided me access To these royal level groups and these heads of state groups Um, but really what happened when the boom of the internet took place. I'd say between 2006 and 2010 Everything changed because when you would go to an event You'd see somebody and you'd kind of talk to them and you know, say hi or whatever But when facebook and like myspace and all that stuff started coming out You can now email that person or message that person on social media The next day after you got back home and share your photos and share everything else And then people started asking Do you have a method book? Like do you have a drum history? Like lineage written up about norwegian drumming and a lot of people said well It's got to be there So from a research point of view social media allowed us to really connect from a cultural point of view And to dig into this idea of well We know that in the united states we got these drumming rudiments that kind of came Via the british but where was the garden of eden of all of this stuff and The swiss army central band is at one of these events and you talk to philip ruche Who's the drum major and lead drum instructor at the swiss army? It was all that's easy We have this document and of course it's swiss. So it's all like a rolex. It's all perfectly aligned and um They they start sharing all that stuff. So I think the idea of rivalries Certainly we're there, but as of right now when it comes to The sharing of tradition and that's a hashtag that we follow So if you go on your on any of your social media handles and you hashtag follow share the tradition You're going to see hundreds of posts of these international groups Uh sharing what they can share because everyone is very passionate about what we're talking about Passing it on to the next the next generation and looking out for the kids Hmm. That's awesome. How do you get entry into these? Is there like, you know, it's it's kind of a legacy thing obviously You know, everyone can't just start playing and then go all right. I'm going to go now to australia and play in this thing You know, how do you get in? Yeah, so I would say it's twofold. Um one is You can grow up inside of the tradition for sure But the challenge is when it comes to life experience fife and drum is a very community based music scene So you're talking straight community music the level of instruction is going to differ the level of competency is going to differ And really at that point you're you're hopefully very lucky to have had a great teacher that could expose you To other types of percussion drum set things like that that kind of exists And the other route is through the university route obviously, you know, go into school learning how to play percussion Um as a music ed major I had to learn, you know, all the instruments, you know, obviously I was very bad at most of them. But that's just just how it is. Yeah But so for these military groups, it's interesting because you can do different levels of the military groups Um, so every state has a national guard band. Uh, then there are what they call division bands So you can go at a higher level But then there are what they call special bands and so these special bands are specialty groups like pershing zone Like the president's own the navy band and they're all usually based in washington dc So if you take that as a template each country has a kind of format sort of like that There obviously things that are different But if you take that as the template you kind of three levels of military band organization And so in the u.s. Army, there are four special bands You have the pershing zone the united states army band that does the the tomb of the unknowns the the funerals at arlington cemetery those types of things Um, then you have the west point band that is at up at west point And they're the oldest band that we know of In that's been continuous since the revolutionary war in the u.s. That's a really cool piece piece of history Their drum group is called the hellcats and the hellcats are incredible Uh, the third group is the army field band. That's a traveling version and they've got the jazz ambassadors and and great great group there um And then the last one is the u.s. Army old guard fife and drum corps and we're the ones that wear the colonial uniforms and everything like that so we're part of the the presidential inauguration we're at the white house state arrivals things like that so If you think about it, you're going to audition for those groups You're going to send a video around in you'll probably get if if you get the live invite You get a live invite and then they go through different rounds of playing and marching and things like that for us So that's how you get to those groups and then once you get to those groups You start recognizing if you're in tune with it that there's almost this crazy brotherhood sisterhood that exists With other groups from around the world that are at that level and again, that's where social media comes in there are a lot of groups on social media that will have chats and they'll have separate messaging groups and We have this one organization called the society of international rudimental drummers And there's something like 40 countries represented in this group And you'll see different styles from norway to france to sweden to spain to south africa to australia to singapore And it's just it's crazy because Every one of those countries Has a history and a tradition like we're talking about that's very specific to that countries You know political ups and downs its cultural ups and downs and their story is just as rich as any other story in the world We're going to take a quick break and i want to welcome a new sponsor on the show Who's coming on board to support drum history and help make it even better dream symbols Dream symbols creates b20 and truly hand hammered symbols for today's working drummer Each handcrafted symbol has a warmth that draws you in at low volumes Yet thunders with beautiful overtones when leaned into and opened up These symbols come alive with an explosive attack But have undertones that are warm rich and dark each one has a unique complex voice that will help you define your personal sound The symbols speak clearly at all dynamic levels and sit comfortably and easily blend in any mix Head over to dream symbols.com or at dream symbols on instagram and find out what your dream sounds like today A lot of these locations are obviously kind of like it seems like it's it's from where the british empire would have like Uh reigned now. Do you find any of the um, you know, I guess it wouldn't be fife and drum But even like the high level rudimental competitions in like let's say you said south africa But like other african countries or like, uh, latin countries like do you find it there as well? Yeah, actually really cool Segway to this. This is a great conversation piece. So there's a drummer named damian bonacy. That is from argentina and so he lives in bueno saris and if You know people know dr. John wooten, you know, uh, dr. Throwdown he was teaching him with his Summer drumming camp that he has at university of southern mississippi. I don't know could be 10 years ago now Um, and so one of the things i've fallen in love with as a teacher and as a writer is Hybriding styles like I love kind of fusion rudimental drumming So obviously the american rudiments have their own thing the swiss rudiments have their own thing Come to find out, you know, the pipe band rudiments have their own thing and then you start going wait a minute There are norwegian rudiments. There are French rudiments there are Swedish rudiments and they're all slightly different. There's touch points that are the same, but they are slightly different So figuring out how they all fit together and work together is something I love doing And so I get this email one day from john, uh, john wooten He says hey, I've got this student and he's really interested in like what you're doing with this hybridting of rudiments Um, that's more your court. Can you go ahead and take this guy? Yeah, sure Um, so damien hops in and I mean he is like the dream student He like you give him something he chews it up and spits it out and he's just like give me more give me more So fast forward We worked together. We worked on some american rudiments. We worked on some swiss rudiments. We worked I mean, I'm not a pipe band drummer. I'm a novice pipe band drummer at best um, and so We started talking about how they work and why and we started talking about Are there argentinian rhythms or ways that we can incorporate the argentinian style into this drumming and he's like Oh, absolutely. So he did some digging and this was awesome. He did about a year and a half of research and he was actually He was actually highlighted at the percussive art society international convention in 2019 During the drummers heritage concert that we put together And he had put together a duet with this basura kind of like brazilian Argentinian and that's where like I don't know the difference there between What makes it an actual argentinian style drum and a brazilian drum because it's it starts to get Really similar, right? And so yeah long story short He put a rudimental composition together Hiberting american rudimental drumming with this history of argentina and it was incredible and so There are some other folks trying to do that thing And it's starting to catch fire and now he has a drum group called ser rudimental And he's trying to connect all interested parties in latin america to Do rudimental drumming and incorporate their country's cultural drumming styles So there's representatives in brazil, argentina, chile. It's it's incredible, but that's that's happening in other places There's another guy in greece doing the same thing. He created the greek rudimental drumming community um alexander nicola Nadelkos and he's in athens and you know, I teach him on sunday afternoons and we end up Having a great time talking about concepts and teaching and style and tradition and I think that's that's the name of the game the name of the game is The tradition is really important And how do we address tradition in today's society? Absolutely And it's also the like you said you got to evolve you got to change you can't just be like no no no These are our rudiments, you know, this is this is how it's been you've got to include other people and right and there's So i've i've had a lot of communication with people in um brazil in particular about the um Just drumming and their their passion for their rock jazz any anything drums is just Off the charts. I mean it's just such a cool, you know, it's it's that's why we love the drums because it's all around the world We're all obsessed with it. I I I often say in most of my clinics You know, we you teach kids right right left left right right left left and all of a sudden You don't have to speak the same language You don't have to know their background But you're creating something together in that moment And I say you know not it's definitely nothing of any slam on different types of service But those two stupid pieces of wood Can do more good for the world than what a lot of other people try to do with their mouth And I think that's something That says a lot you don't it's it's that you know do as I do Don't do as I say sometimes and it's like you have to be very careful About you know how that is presented today obviously, but if you create a great example for people to follow And then you follow through on that example and you help others you really you can't lose No No, and I've there's so many times I've brought it up on the show where uh There's a guy who was putting some tile upstairs in a bathroom. We're getting worked on and he saw Uh a guitar sitting kind of like I have you know old guitar sitting around so the baby can kind of strum on it He went oh do you jam and I was like, yeah, but I'm a drummer and then he's a drummer and we just something like Yeah, something changes in the relationship, especially with like someone where it's like You know, technically he's here just doing some work on my house We've then talked every day like it mentally changes between two people when you find out And it's even on a greater scale when you can't speak the same language Like you said, yeah, and and that's something that was interesting. Um, so in 2014 we had the Swiss national fife and drum association send a delegation to washington and we organized A handful of clinics and workshops with you know, the groups that would do these tattoos So if you come to washington dc Almost every night of the week during the summer and of course post covet Um is some kind of military concert So on tuesday nights if you go to the Iwo Jima memorial in dc You're gonna see that the the It's what do they call it. Um the evening tattoo or the evening parade Um, so you're gonna have a show on tuesday nights by the marine corps Wednesday night the u.s. Army puts on the twilight tattoo, which is our version of it, uh at fort meyer then on Thursdays you'll have either the navy band or the air force band in front of the steps of the capital Um friday night the marines do another one that one's called evening parade. That's at eighth and i Down in marine barracks washington, but so anyway, you have these Incredible concerts happening every night of the week pretty much in dc And so we had this group in 2014 come over and a handful of them spoke pretty decent english But the leader of the group was a guy named evan kim and evan kim is the Unbelievable master teacher of the new generation of swiss rudimental drummers. So You're not going to find a ton on him online because he doesn't have a social media presence He doesn't have anything like that. He's probably Mid to late 40s, but he is the champion of champion teachers over in switzerland And so evan was there and evan was was trying to speak the best english that he could with us But when he started drumming and teaching he was teaching the olgar drummers Stuff that they had never seen before And I think we have pretty decent drummers at the olgard and yeah This guy took us to school and it was so much fun. It was just and again, that that's that rivalry piece again You know at first, you know, the guys are like, oh, you know swiss guys The swiss guys were like oh guard guys and when we got those sticks out and we just started drumming together Something changed just like you're talking about and we became brothers after that weekend. It was amazing That's awesome So you've obviously been all around the world Doing this how long would you say? You've been in this in this world like, you know professionally playing with tattoos. How long have you been doing it? So my first introduction to the tattoo scene was in 2005 um So 2005 is when I was lucky enough to get asked to play with top secret And I showed up and obviously I was a new new er guy with the olgard at that point But I was involved with the teaching and arranging of the music for the olgard at that point. So Um, luckily I went down to australia There was a guy named john bosworth and john bosworth is an icon when it comes to the dc Air force band scene and so john bosworth played at kennedy's funeral played at kennedy's inauguration So like john's been around he's in his in his early 80s now I think but he was also taught by alex duthert Of the pipe band scene and he was taught by john dallon of the american rudimental scene. So john This is a whole thing. I love I love finding out teachers teachers of teachers like who was your teacher's instructor who was your Yeah, I love that stuff and so um John john bosworth took me under his wing at that point in my career. He's like look kid This is a window that's gonna close. You need to be very aware of what's happening right now. So eric juliard, this is right after the um The george w bush inauguration when we went down there And so there was a lot of interviews that were happening of you know, you're in the presidential escort How does this work? You know, what is your what are your thoughts? And of course you'd be very careful of what you're saying in front of who and so you have to be extraordinarily apolitical with this Which honestly has been a very large benefit in my career um But being down there for this 2005 tattoo Top secret was the rage and so their big explosion was in the 2003 Ed um edinboro military tattoo and they became like iconic for this tattoo scene So in 2005 I go in with eric juliard. This is before the bozzle tattoo actually exists They were they they only started in 2006. So this is the year prior And eric brings me into the vip lounge and everyone's dressed to the nines You know, if you're not in uniform, you're in like, you know black tie kind of thing And so you're in with you know people who are representing the sultan of oman You're there with people who are representing the representing the queen people who are representing the king of norway And so at that point eric's like look, this is a great thing for you and your career Be aware of this speak, you know speak on behalf of your nation because weirdly enough At that event there was not a u.s presence which Is part of the problem with these international groups is that A lot of the militaries from other countries Recognize that the u.s is the big dog when it comes to the military and they will send cultural diplomacy assets To the united states to create relationship with a strategic partner Now the u.s being the top dog does not see the value so much as to send cultural ambassadors around the world Because everyone's trying to court the united states So there's a little bit of a back and forth with that and that's kind of where the washington tattoo comes into play is that We're trying to recognize the templates that work around the world Apply that to our organization But recognize that when it comes to funding and government funding for it The military and department of defense. This is not their priority And it probably will never be their priority It'll be a nice to have but it will not be a needs to have So going the non-profit route is really the way to do it to share these traditions and bring other people from around the world Uh via the via the the platform of charity That's such an interesting similar to like, you know, oh, yeah, there's a lighting person at these, you know Like there's so many jobs. It just makes you think like Like of course, you can't leave your family for two weeks and go to australia without getting paid So Right, you do get I mean not you person. I don't want to get too personal People do get compensated when they get sent around to perform at these 100 100 percent So if you're in the military, you're getting paid your military wages, right? Yeah So typically at an event what there'll be some kind of milit there'll be some kind of stipend that performers will get But all of the housing is covered all the food is covered Usually transportation to some degree is covered but that's usually in a Each group there will be a separate conversation with all of that so that you can figure out how the budget's gonna work But you're right. You have lighting. You have rigging. You're gonna have people who are doing pa stuff You're gonna have a marketing team you're gonna have all of that as part of the organization and really what that ends up coming To really brass tacks with is what are your what do your partnerships look like? Who who are you? Helping support at your own event because the tattoo the show is the keynote piece of the entire production Prior to the show you have vip receptions. You have workshops You have all these kind of small events that lead up to the big thing that is the actual show of the tattoo So in some cases you'll have Cheryl Roach who is you know, one of the premier Highland dance choreographers and instructors Teaching a set of high school kids how to dance and how to do the basics and the history of Highland dance You have a jim kill patrick, you know, maybe come in and do a scottish drumming workshop for 45 minutes with You know a local fireman or police pipe band And so those are the things right there where if you get the the support of the community With these other because the idea is service at the end of the day The entire thing is about service and championing service and that's that's our mission our mission is to champion service and so if we can offer inspiration and motivation to folks that are a part of this from You know the the local fireman's pipe band scene the local Jrotc drill team at the high school and we can bring in these guest speakers and these world-renowned artists To interact with these kids or interact with adults that give them inspiration and motivation to better their level of excellence Then we've done our job. That's that's really the name of our game And so a lot of people find value in that a lot of corporations find value in that and so if you're partnering You know right now we're having great conversations with the hamilton hotel downtown dc And we're trying to figure in other couple blocks from the white house And we're looking on how we partner together to try to bring You know obviously things that they need which is people and clients and things like that But by doing this incredible music event and these workshops there People just want to be a part of that and it's you know, we are all social beings So we all want to be a part of something incredible And honestly if you go there and you get some swag items and you get a really nice brochure And you take it home That's stuff that people hang on their wall and that's stuff that are like I was at that event And this international group from norway who plays the king of norway Was at this thing and I got to take a picture with the drum major and shake their hand I mean those are those impressions and those memory maker moments that we we find ourselves in the business of Yeah, absolutely Yeah, it's it's such a I mean, it's very positive. It's very like just it promotes It's just so international and uh, but like we're saying on the other end You got the guy selling hot dogs who needs to get paid He doesn't care about you know, absolutely And I think that's the other thing too is that um, if you look at a bunch of these shows There are different packages, right? So you have a ticket, you know a baseline ticket's going to cost between 20 25 bucks 30 bucks something like that That'll get you the access to the show, but it's going to give you a program It's going to give you the ability to still meet the people after the show is over kind of in you know In the lobby area because there's always I think when you say the royal edinborough military tattoo is the granddaddy of all of these And if you look at bozzled bozzles kind of the disney world of tattoos They have really I mean their their ability to It's a different business model. Uh, one is charity like one is for-profit one is non-profit And the way that the bozzle tattoo works is Extraordinary when it has the people who are doing the meet and greets. There's a parade downtown There's all these really great things where Even if you have a baseline entry ticket to it what you're exposed to is incredible But then you have higher level tickets where you know You pay 100 bucks and it it has a vip dinner where you literally get one of the groups That's at that thing playing for you in a very intimate space And there's kind of a meet and greet and there's a discussion or a presentation on You know the the swedish lifeguard to the king. Okay, cool You know if you have swedish background like you'd probably want to go check that out If you're part of the embassy team you're probably going to want to check that out And that's something that we're we're in discussions with now as well as you know linking up the embassy contacts in dc Along with each of these groups that come in because we've again in the military world We're already doing these things. So as we're building this from a business model, you know, if these things are already happening How do you leverage the partnerships in the best way possible? Wow That's awesome. So obviously it's march 2021 stuff is still kind of crazy in the world right now, but um You know, what can people look forward to like is there anything kind of Scheduled sort of that we can get to get to well. I mean just to throw this out there This was the obviously the slapdown of slapdowns when it came to covet. Um, yeah So march march 21st 2020 was supposed to be our first live event so We had a great location outside of the dullis airport Ion international training center was a hockey arena that was just built up We had a great partnership with them and honestly I had come back from uh, you know hybrid personal business trip from from the uk in switzerland where We actually met up with our advisor from the royal edinburgh military tattoo sir melville jamison Who is the former producer of the show? He's on our advisory team So he's given us a lot of the ins and outs of you know, the the road bumps and the smooth sailing things So uh, we met with sir mel at the edinborough castle I think that we met on march 6th of 2020 Took pictures in front of the castle got a drab of of uh, of scotch in the the barracks and everything It was it was fantastic. That's awesome. And then we get back to washington and everything Just goes down the drain. It's so Yeah, um, so we we pivoted just like everybody else did. Um, we went digital We put together a digital event this in gen on january 3rd of this past year If you go on facebook and our youtube channel, we've got a podcast that we've started Um, it's really again, we are just trying to get our feet underneath ourselves Throughout the first six months. And then what we started realizing is that you know, if we do a digital product We're able to at least build and go through our motions of what we need to do for ticket revenue and things like that And start learning some lessons, which has been very positive So as of right now, we have two live events scheduled and two virtual events scheduled so May 15th of 2021 we will be doing a fife and drum workshop Down at colonial livensburg area So covet restrictions obviously are there the state of virginia has its laws in place. We're hoping that some of that gets Um, kind of released a little bit by the time this this goes around But I think we're going to be able to have about 50 people Um at this workshop. I think that's kind of the limit at the moment But we're looking hopefully to get that up to about a hundred people at this workshop. Yeah L works brewing Has been fantastic. They are actually hosting the event. They're they are the ones who actually helped craft the The beers uh for colonial livensburg So the old 18th century recipes and all that kind of stuff, uh, they helped they helped provide that um Then moving forward we are doing a virtual 5k Uh, we're going to call it the tattoo trot for troops And so what we're doing is we're we're trying to target Military members and their children who are interested in music so that we can find that connective bond between You know, honestly a student for us but child to them and you know, obviously parent because if you have that connection parent to child And you can have music as one of those communication pieces in your relationship. We know how powerful that can be So that's really where the targeting is for and the both those are both those events are may 15th and may 16th But the virtual run will last the entire month. It's going to go from armed forces day to flag day, which is june 14th um, so that's that's two events in may we're going to do a fife and drum competition In uh over labor day weekend. And so that's going to be another one ale works is going to help us uh out with that But then on november 7th, we will put out our second digital product show. So the show itself will have Um groups from all over the world The last show that we put together had groups from australia had groups from the netherlands Had a steel band from the netherlands, which is absolutely incredible. Yeah, uh, and we put together this awesome International drummers skit, uh our act and so I love kit chatham. Kit chatham is uh, buddy of mine with cirque du soleil He kind of worked out some really cool drum Solo sections where we took crazy army and built that into kind of this like samba reggae Groove and we had bill bachman from dallas. We had claus hessler from germany We had dav goodman from australia and then kit play in there with some drummers that were active duty and alumni of the old Guard So it was a lot of fun to kind of put that together Um, and so at the moment there are a couple other higher high end drum set players that we are talking to to create a second one Of those and the highland dance folks are saying wait a minute. We want a part of this How do we how do we put some virtual highland dancing in front of the edinborough and edinborough castle? In with this drumming thing so we're getting creative But that's that's what we're looking forward to and then the last thing is um, we're looking at fall Of 2022 for our first downtown dc live event So hamilton hotel is in conversation with us about it right now, but uh, november I think it's going to be veterans day weekend. So it's usually like that second weekend in november of 2022 That is what we're targeting for our first live larger event That seems safe. I mean, who knows what'll happen, but that seems safe. Um, but yeah god, I mean, I feel like uh What you're doing and your like kind of progressive modern Take on this I don't care what it is if it's you know, the tattoos or anything with music is what you have to be doing now To keep people interested. So uh, you're obviously doing an amazing job with all this and I think everyone in your world Dave goodman told me that you're an extremely nice guy and I can attest to that so I hope so. I thought you try to be authentic and just be who you really are and you know if if We all have things to work on in our lives. So if you if you're open and honest about that you're you'll be okay I think absolutely now So people have probably uh, you know been wondering can I take lessons with mark? You know, where can I find out more about you? um Yeah, do you do like zoom lessons? How how can people trust that that that info? Yeah, sure. So, um, definitely do zoom lessons Um, I currently right now have taken an adjunct position with uh, west virginia university Uh, and so they have taken it upon themselves to actually really dive deep into this so what I did by master's degree I did a rudimental year long deep dive study of basically breaking up a year into four quarters And doing a study of swiss drumming american drumming scottish drumming and a little bit of french drumming and so Uh, what I was able to do is put that into a curriculum and they're using that You know most of it now at west virginia. So that's one avenue. Uh, definitely doing zoom lessons online Um, gotta be really careful with just the amount of time with a young family and making sure that happy wife happy life Yeah, so But that's that's one side of it. Also, I mean any of the social media platforms, um, you know, instagram twitter Facebook, uh, linkedin is kind of the one i've been really utilizing quite a bit of right now just because of the partnership side of the house Uh, but yeah, you can find me in any of those locations Cool, and what's your podcast? The podcast is the washington tattoo podcast. So we've had, um Mostly drummers now because that's the easiest access that i've got But we've got, you know producers from shows Uh from switzerland from the uk You know dci legends ralph harteman. We had done one with glenn crossby Some of the royal marines from uh, the uk have been on there some really really really good stuff And then some of the musicians from the dc area Um music scene as well. So it's been been pretty exciting. Awesome. Well Yeah, podcasting is uh, it's a lot of fun. Obviously as you uh, as you know, it's it's it's even more work Sometimes I think we all It people underestimate how much work goes into this stuff. Right. I mean, right But obviously you're a man who can handle it. Um, so Yeah, I mean this has just been great. So, um, again, I want to thank uh, andrew Kepizello who's a great guy extremely good drummer and uh, I just love when people connect me with Uh, great people like mark. So, um Yeah, mark, what is your what's the best way to like contact you if someone wanted to get in touch? I know you said social media, but is there a good email you want to put out there or anything like that? Absolutely. So my first name is john, which throws a lot of people off So, uh, I go by my middle name and I thank my parents for that wonderful blessing because it gets quite confusing in schools So, uh, but j is in john m a r k mark Riley r e i l l y at g mail. So if you think about it, it's just j mark riley at gmail.com Cool. My first name is thomas And my my middle name is bart. It's actually bartlett. Uh, but I go so I go by bart. Um, so I'm right there with you in school Every time you go to the doctor or something Every like legal document. It's always thomas and then people are like wait, who's that? Yeah, exactly exactly So you and I are brothers in more than one way. Yes, exactly So, um mark is going to be kind enough to hang out for maybe 10 extra minutes and we're going to do a little patreon bonus conversation Um, I think maybe we can talk a little bit about some of your favorite places you've played around the world I'm curious if you've had uh, that's a lot of coordination. So maybe we can talk about if there's been some things that haven't gone quite so smoothly I mean, I'm sure that that has to happen. Everyone loves the bloopers blooper stories uh, and maybe some tips for um, what you know, young drummers can do to get like Like tips on practice what they can do to get ready for stuff like that. So If you want to hear that conversation, you can go to drumhistorypodcast.com and there's a patreon link there and for a couple bucks a month you can get um Usually a weekly patreon uh bonus episode not every episode some of them, uh, we have technical issues and I'm just you know at the end of it. I go we got to get out of here. Yeah, this one's been smooth. So Um, well mark, thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. I mean, this has just been awesome Uh, it's a pleasure and I mean just for one one final note And this is three pillars that I leave and I try to In any of my mentorship sessions any of my leadership sessions either the three pillars That I think throughout your entire career You'll go through seasons And if you can lean on one of these three pillars at one time Great if you can apply all three pillars. That's even better But one is you're always striving for performance excellence. You know musical excellence marching excellence you know performance excellence two is Learn your story learn your heritage. What type of story are you a part of someone taught you how to play something And so someone had that ability to teach you or show you something even if you're self taught You learn something from somewhere so dive into that heritage and then the third one the last part is Once you learn a level of competency even if it's I know how to hold the sticks and play right right left right And I can start to figure out how to give back the third part is always community And figuring out how you can share that piece to the next generation So those three pillars performance excellence your heritage and then giving back to your community Those three pillars will never steer you wrong if you can't if you constantly keep that in the front The front view the front view of your car Wow, man, that's powerful I feel like we're helping with the heritage kind of thing right now and the community and obviously you're teaching people You know some performance Uh, it's inspiring to hear about your story with which makes you want to push with the performance and everything so All right, boy. Thank you That's awesome. I appreciate it Bart. This has been really an incredible conversation. I appreciate the opportunity to chat on your podcast If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning