 Okay, that's perfect. Okay, and in the interest of time, I'm going to get us started today. Hello and welcome. I'm Kate Fugut. I'm an objects conservator and co chair of the AIC sustainability committee. Thank you for joining us for the fifth conversation in this series. If you're joining from anywhere in the US, you've likely experienced unhealthy air quality recently due to an unusually strong fire season in Canada. I think it's clear to everyone that the climate crisis is here. And I was just told that this is depressing, but I'm going to share it anyway. I read an article the other day that pointed out that the weather will never be normal again. And this series conversations with change makers is an ongoing series of webinars organized by the AIC sustainability committee and the icon sustainability network in response to the urgent need to reduce the energy usage of our field. So that we can do our part to ensure that this new normal doesn't become more extreme. We hope in speaking with colleagues who've already made important changes to reduce the energy of their work environments and collaborate across departments to embed sustainability institutionally, you will feel inspired and empowered to do the same. So first a bit of housekeeping, please enter questions in the chat at the end of this conversation. We will be reading through them then, and hopefully have a chance to share your question with the speakers. During the conversation, please feel free to use the chat to share, you know, links resources and comments, but please save questions for the end I just don't want to lose them in the conversation that I hope will happen there. The meeting is enabled, and this event will be recorded and shared on YouTube afterward. So today I am joined by Christopher Dunbrack, Beth Ann Heimbach and Brock Manville. Chris is an associate buildings manager at the Metropolitan Museum of Art with specific oversight of the Met Cloisters. He improved the Met Cloisters overall infrastructure including recommending energy efficient practices, sourcing new equipment with that harnesses renewable energy and developing the museum's resiliency to climate change in the Anthropocene. Sustainability and resiliency is a core focus for Chris who has been one of the spearheads for the Mets development and implementation of energy conservation efforts. His most ambitious goal is the transition of the Met Cloisters to facility wide geothermal heating and cooling. He is the head of preventive conservation at the National Gallery of Art, where she has been employed for 24 years. She's tasked with managing conservation's responsibility to temporary exhibitions and coordinating the programs for pest management emergency response and environmental monitoring for the collection and exhibitions. Most recently she joined the National Gallery's sustainability working group with particular interest in addressing temporary exhibition issues and practices. Chris is the energy manager at the National Gallery of Art, working with the operations department he has led reductions in energy usage and carbon emissions of over 40% since 2010 while maintaining stringent NGA environmental standards. His responsibilities also include development of National Gallery sustainability programs working with several DEI initiatives and project management. Let's start by speaking with Chris today and then we will speak with colleagues from the National Gallery of Art. So Chris, can you talk about what geothermal is and why this is a good choice for the Met Cloisters. Yeah, I want to start by saying I'm no expert exclusively on geothermal and what it is but but it's the sense in which we're going to approach it here at the Cloisters is we're going to do a closed loop system where we drill holes down into the ground. And we use we harness that ambient temperature of the earth, anywhere from, say 10 feet to 1500 feet. In the right location which we are, you can, the earth is relatively speaking around 55 degrees Fahrenheit, and you can use that harness it to both cool and heat the building you can shed your heat and into the earth as well as pick up the heat from the earth and and when you're picking up the heat from the earth you can. It's a much smaller spectrum that you need to then reheat. You're saving a lot of energy. It still requires the use of electricity. So the, the Met Cloisters would be net zero ready, so to speak, in other words as the grid starts to connect to more renewables. So to then does the Cloisters other forms of geothermal, sorry, a little nervous geothermal energy are easy kind of to based on its use of steam geothermal steam like they do an Iceland for district steam for the for Reykjavik and most of all of Iceland and I think that's how most people initially started to think of geothermal energy so that the two different types are moving holes into the ground and running a closed loop, or even some in some cases open loop which is less common. Think of it like a car radiator. And we're just sinking a radiator into the ground and circulating glycol water mix glycol is very similar to any freeze. And we're circulating it through the earth, picking up the earth's heat or shedding heat into the earth as needed. And that's basically it so you have two forms I know there's some exploration I'm using the steam from the earth also in turbines to generate electricity which is a very popular thing so there's there's three categories. But I don't want to go much deeper than that I'm no expert entirely on geothermal energy. Can you tell us what stage the project is currently at, just in regards to implementation as well as institutional support. Here at the cloister is it depends on how you look at it I look at any sustainability initiative that you pursue as a campaign. Especially the more ambitious ones and I like to always recommend that you you you chase the ambitious ones because the smaller ones become self evident as you're chasing the bigger ones. One of the things you can do happen in parallel especially as people start to attach to the ambitious project. It creates kind of as as Brock told taught me once it creates a culture change. Where we are here, based on a campaign is we've we've we've gotten a tremendous amount of support internally. The project itself is very is looked on favorably. We've done some testing. We did a test well and determine that we do have geothermal conductivity under us so we can harness it we have a lot of bedrock under us which is ideal. One would think it makes it harder to drill but in today's technology it's it's not that difficult and bedrock is actually a good. A lot of bedrock under your location is very, very good. We've determined that the campus that we're on we're in a park and the campus that we hold on to which is about three and a half acres will likely be enough space we're now exploring the challenges that come with how many wells. And that's part of our preliminary design. So, we're up over 150 wells, but in New York State you can only drill to 500 feet and then you have to apply for a fracking or oil drilling permit. Now there's, there's pressure on the state to kind of loosen that restriction for geothermal wells. The hope is is that we'll have to make less holes in the ground. So those are some of the things we're exploring right now. We're at a, so again, we're at a preliminary design. Lots of internal support. We're changing the culture as a result of chasing this up this project so so I would say one quarter of the way there. Probably another five to eight years before the project is operable. That's, I think that's a good statistic to share as folks are thinking about, you know, whether it's possible to do that kind of implementation at their institutions. You also gave a really wonderful green museums presentation and in it, you talked a lot about agency and the important of the importance of agency. Can you just, you know, share a little bit of your thoughts on that and why it's incredibly important and helps people to take action which is so so important right now. Yeah, so, so the, I can speak on it from the example of a building manager, and as a building manager traditionally we've been responsible for HVAC in some cases, you know, the infrastructure and envelope of the building. And both in the case of the, the equipment that you use to heat and cool the climate of the building and for the collection and the envelope of the building the walls the windows the doors this roofs. is becoming a consideration well it's always been a consideration but how we make our decisions on the equipment we purchase and how resilient we build our walls is really important and it's a new idea. It's a new idea for a building manager as they kind of understand their agency to look at it as from the point perspective of a conservator, because the planet Earth is is is the ultimate I've said this before the ultimate reliquary and the objects that we keep in our museums are ultimately on the earth. And the fact that if we don't choose the equipment and how we make our buildings resilient with mindfulness to the environment of the natural world. We're working against ourselves as the planet heats we're using more and more energy we're burning more and more coal or oil to try and offset that inside the museum so there's a really direct alignment. I mean, conserve conservation and and building managers and how we partner to move things forward, more and more so and I know later in this conversation we're going to talk very deeply about how that that partnership plays out. And I think that looking at your role, whether you're a conservator, or a building manager, or, you know, you're in the gift shop, or you're a curator, trying to find your agency and how it connects to preserving the natural world is really, I think mission critical and it's one of the first things you have to think of when you think of it whether it's a special exhibition planning, or whether you're purchasing things for the gift shops from, you know, how far abroad you're purchasing those things can you source it locally all of these things are ways you can kind of explore your agency with respect to the environment. Yeah, that's so true. And, you know, you and I have had many conversations in which we've talked about how buildings, you know and facilities managers are really, you know their work is so similar to conservators now can you just elaborate on that idea a little bit maybe for those who have not been privy to those conversations. Yeah, I mean, climate climate the climate of the buildings of building managers are on the front lines of maintaining the climate for the collection, whether it's a storage spaces the gallery spaces, even the climate for the staff and creating a comfortable and well ventilated space. For example, it's right in hand is air quality. Either the youth equipment you have most museums can handle to some degree poor air quality particulars in the air. But as we replace it or or as the equipment is run we have to consider that right so the particulars in the air with the recent fires from Canada. And there's a conversation between myself and our curator on, excuse me our conservator here on site about closing the gallery doors at the cloisters we have many gardens. Our doors are open. And I'm running my equipment to offset that air harder than I want to. And there was a very, very direct conversation at the outset of this. It's now more than the conservators decision about it. But those first few days. It was a collaboration with with security and many, many people. But there I think is a great example of how the building manager or the engineer of the building and a conservator in today's Anthropocene have to work together to make decisions. You know, that's so great. It really is a partnership, you know, going forward with a really similar goal. So I'm going to transition now to talk about what is happening at the National Gallery of Art with Beth Ann and Brock. So, the National Gallery of Art has started a pilot project to adjust the set points the climate set points. So just talk a little bit about what adjustments are being made there and why, and I will give this question to whoever, whoever wants to take it. I'll go ahead and step up for for this one. And just to respond to the last topic. We also see ourselves as hoplites of object conversation at the National Gallery of Art and the operations group. We're in competition with the Great Wall and the pyramids of Giza in terms of the long playing a long game. You probably are mostly familiar with the, you know, the shorthand we use 7050 70 degrees Fahrenheit 50% relative humidity has been our gallery condition standard forever, it seems like it hasn't really been forever but that's the standard we begin with. And a quick review of that from the operational perspective that that that's a that's a goal, but machines don't really work like that you do the control systems have dead bands so the reality is that you look at the programming of your HVAC equipment you'll see that there are that there's a little bit of a gap that that has to be there for the systems to function. Otherwise they would be banging back and forth between heating and cooling and and on and off states. And they wouldn't work. So there's always been a little bit of a gap a range in the reality of maintaining that that 7050 standard. And with that 7050 standard there's a this is also I think fairly common that there's a plus or minus five for both degrees Fahrenheit and points of relative humidity that is allowable the reality is we see ourselves operating an air factory it's not quite the same as air conditioning and office building we we we work hard to keep that 7050 standard as real as possible. And if we're more plus or minus to historically we would be concerned we want to know why this what what where where is drift in excess of those two degree variants coming from. So what we're going to do is allow that 7050 to to drift a little bit from 6848 in the wintertime to 70 to 52 in the summertime. This is actually well within the existing allowable standard and not very far away from the the the actual necessary dead band and the control of these machines. So that plus or minus five in the control system has alarms so that when we cross those thresholds red lights go on we're not going to change that we will keep the alarms as they are, and continue and and and double down on the focus of the real priority is is controlling the variance so that there aren't jumps in the short term and the measurable in hours from the current standard. And that's that's what we're going to do. The idea is maybe bigger than the reality in terms of a change from from the starting state. Yeah. And so just building on that then. Any discussion about, you know, taking it a step further widening the set points further or you know what are what are you hoping will come from this and Beth and I'll let you take this one. The answer is yes, we, we are hoping that after the pilot phase is over and we are giving it 12 months from the initial outset, and when we have collected the data on what this modest change has meant in the reality, we're going to take another modest step farther to widen those set points. And that will really set off a lot of policy change here in how we are caring for our more vulnerable objects in the collection, how we are storing things. And the goal is, let's get the data back from, from this pilot run, and see how much farther we can really take those settings have our energy benefit without a substantial change in the actual environmental conditions that we're experiencing in our art containing spaces. I imagine that, you know, there's a lot of thinking already happening about ways that you can, you know, protect and isolate the most vulnerable art. Can you talk about some of the things that you have in mind, and are hoping to implement if you can, you know, widen the set points or continue widening the set points I should say, so we are very fortunate that in 2025, we are going to be opening offsite storage in partnership with the Smithsonian. And that facility is being built to a gold lead standard with geothermal heating and cooling. Very exciting, we're very happy about this new facility. So, a large amount of our collection will be stored there, where keeping customized environments is much more environmentally friendly, easier to do will cost less etc etc it's going to be just really state of the art wonderful. But then back on campus where we don't have that kind of capability. We need to look at our vulnerable objects on the piece level, and what can we do to provide for them. The environment that will preserve them the best. As it stands, most of our very vulnerable materials are already protected, additionally, in display cases, or micro climate packages within their frames. So, so it's not a very steep climb for us on that. But we do anticipate as we nudge to wider and wider settings that we're going to have to look at the collection that is here on display and make decisions about how we additionally protect those things on the piece level. And so, when you are thinking about what needs to be potentially protected. It sounds like, you know, you already know a lot of those pieces but how else are you identifying what you might want to isolate. Are you looking at records are you speaking with curators. So, at this preliminary stage, we're waiting to see how the data comes back so that we can really look at the humidity conditions in various places in the building. And pulling out anything that might be more challenging for us to control. When we have that information, we're going to sit down with the curators, we're going to sit down with facilities and say, you know, we might need to think differently about how some of these things are displayed, based on these conditions. And we're going to work it through. It's going to be an ongoing conversation. I love Chris's use of the word campaign. And we're going to cross those bridges when we get there. That makes a lot of sense. Because just thinking about how, you know, these really large institutions that are in many instances, a combination of multiple buildings that have been combined and kind of retrofitted you often have. There are a lot of systems that control multiple galleries that seem, you know, very far away from each other so I would imagine that there is the, you know, potential to, you know, have to make some some curatorial changes and is that something that you are thinking about now or I guess these conversations kind of have been happening on that level and I guess this is a question for both Brock and Beth and because Brock you're very aware of the, you know, the HVAC capabilities there. Well, let me jump in and say that in terms of delivering conditions tailored to specific objects or sets of objects. That's a, that's a thing we already do. And one of the, one of the concepts that is important to this conversation is the idea of loans and loan agreements and loan, you know, the proof of fitness is a phrase that makes operations guys one blood run cold. We used to until we saw, we actually saw the data from some other institutions and we realized we weren't, we weren't doing that badly, but we do regularly get loaned objects that require something a little different from our regular 7050 and environment. We are our, our campus uses air washers as designed in 1904 by Daryl Willis Carrier to create our environment, interior environment. We have issues with the, the, the energy use of that type of HVAC equipment but we can make whatever an object requires. We have a great deal of power and authority over the, the, the actual conditions inside. And so we do that when we get an alone agreement that needs a little extra humidity. But it is only possible, given the footprint of the existing footprint of the mechanical layout. What I look forward to in the future is we're in the middle of a review of our capital planning. And the whole planet is in the middle of a review of the importance of sustainability. I'm looking forward to combining those, those energies and having our internal conversation. Where our capital planning and architecture teams and our facility team and our curatorial conservation and exhibition teams working are working together to figure out the best way forward so that we can take correct care with our objects and at the same time cut down on the impact on the environment, the carbon footprint of the institution. Kate, I would just like to emphasize to the idea of loans is, is that we have the ability to respond to a loan requirement in a space, you know, if needed, right, as an institution so you have the ability to, to play with, with the set points, and also address loan requirements. It's not an either or I think that's something that gets lost in the conversation when loans comes into the picture. How do we accept loans how do we give our loans out based on fitness. It's not a one or the other if if a particular environment needs a particular climate we can deliver that. So, but we're in a state where we're saying, we maintain a certain climate and we can prove it to you. We're not saying, we can control the environment you need for your object that that feels like that should be the conversation not proving what we've done for the, you know, I have to give reports three years out every 15 minutes for my climates when we do loans I've had to do it recently. And, and I'm proving what I could maintain I'm not proving that I can alter it for their object. I just really feel like that's a conceptual shift I wanted to make no doubt. Yeah, no I think, I think this is a great time to so now we're just going to open up questions to everyone and I have a few prepared but if people do want to start entering their questions into the chat. You know, after I ask a few we can certainly start taking audience questions now and I think this this conversation about loans is really important to have because for so long. When we think about the museum climate. It's been like, Oh, but what about the loans and so I'm very happy to hear that, you know, specific needs of loaned objects can also, you know, be maintained should that be necessary. Beth and do you have anything that you want to add to this to this conversation about loans. Sure. I think that there are a number of tools in the toolbox for addressing loan requirements. And what Brock was speaking to earlier with customized environments for our temporary exhibitions. We have that capability here because we use the same suite of galleries for our temporary exhibitions as many museums do. So we know those spaces very well and what the capability in those spaces is and can be. However, it takes more energy for us to do that in those spaces. And that is what we are trying to get away from. So, I can look at what a lender wants, and try to come up with micro climate micro environment solutions rather than changing the macro environment. That makes the most sense. But then also, we're looking at modifying some of the language in our loan agreements, so that we are assessing the impact of the loan from the outset. And perhaps if something needs a very customized environment that's not easily attained on the piece level. We're looking at bringing in an exclusive use truck, and it has to have a one time use crate, etc, etc. What is the environmental impact of that one loan. How do we assess that we go back to the curator and we ask them to weigh that into that request. So that, so that these temporary exhibitions which just have a very large carbon footprint could be a bit greener. I really love that. And I think that's what we really all need to get in the habit of doing is is factoring sustainability into everything that we're doing and really thinking about the negative impact that our actions have had. So just in thinking about, you know, not every institution can necessarily do geothermal but many institutions can widen the set points and, you know, take an approach like seasonal drift. And you all speak to why that's so important to do and you know how that can be a very important and accessible step for a lot of institutions, and I will look like Chris wants to say something. And from a macro level I go back to what I said earlier and that is, lowering our energy consumption is going to lower the energy production need as well, which ultimately means we're polluting the earth less. And if we don't change that, and again I'm talking a big macro level I'll let Brock talk about and Beth Ann talk about the onsite kind of version of this, but on a big macro level. You're, you're, you're heating up your use you're heating up the planet and creating an environment where you're working against yourself by broadening the set points. You're, you're, you're reducing that energy consumption and and instantaneously that resonates out. And it also allows a quick, I shouldn't say quick, and not extremely expensive option, unlike geothermal which is a huge, you know, financial multi year thing, the set point change. Yes, it's a multi year thing. Yes, it's baby steps financially by comparison it's a lot smaller. So it is more accessible for smaller institutions and larger institutions alike. Everyone can practice this or at least explore this as an idea. Everyone can do it. Every institution. Just, those are my thoughts on on why it's advantageous. It's very democratic way of conserving energy. Brock or by the end, do you have anything to add to this one. Sure, I'll jump in. Chris is spot on the science isn't confusing. There are lots of wise to get started with with learning how to do this. But the planet is on fire as as we noted at the top of our of our gathering and and we got to do something about it. So conservatively we measure the impact of the small changes the sagging to two points in the winter and adding two points in the summer to our existing standard. We conservatively estimate that at 500 million BT two hours a year, we're stuck with English measurements and at our institution we're working on it, but that's a lot of carbon. And, and the other, the other important thing that we see about the issue is, is that we're here together to talk about it and that I've talked to colleagues in at other institutions for a long time about the, the importance of having these conversations in our professional society is as museum and art museum people. So that we can learn from each other and also that we can change the expectations that that that we make it okay for a specific building to, to, to change the these standards the changes are like the government, and we're both, or universities, 1000 points of no it's very hard for these kinds of institutions to change and so it's very very helpful I think for us to work together and publicly to make these changes both okay to start with and ultimately the expectation for our community. I really like that. This next question. We have but I'm also going to mention that it's very similar to Megan Smith's question here. How can conservators and collection care professionals partner with facilities and building managers to push forward these ideas. What suggestions do you have in particular, you know, given that oftentimes, you know, Megan asks specifically about facilities teams but you know I include all of us were often overstretched we're busy institutions are also often under staffed. You know how can we kind of overcome these hurdles to achieve these goals and these partnerships. I'm going to start with Beth Ann because I think you and Brock are a great example of a partnership that has developed at the National Gallery of Art so do you want to talk to us a little bit about how that came to be. It's hard for me to actually tell how it came to be because it is how it's always been here. We have such a mutual respect for what each other brings to the table. I rely so heavily on our engineers to maintain the environment here to help me to understand the systems what the capabilities are. I let them know when we experience any issues they let me know when there have been issues. And it is just an ongoing very easy conversation and partnership. What I would say to in facilities where there hasn't been that long standing conversation is to learn from each other, what, what the capabilities are, and what you're after the engineers often call the conservators their customers. And we have this, this relationship where they're like you are our customer we want to make you very happy. And I need to know what they can do for to make me happy. So they know their jobs very well. I do not. I am not an HVAC expert by any stretch. They also don't know what I always need from them, given an upcoming exhibition, or an object that we have to do something very particular with. Keep that channel open. And the first thing that any conservator or collection manager should do in any institution is sit down with their building engineers and learn what the actual system is in their building and what those capabilities are would be my my first step recommendation. I really love that. Brock or Chris, do you have anything to add to that working on on the other side. I have thoughts but I'll let Brock go first. The only thing I'd add to what Beth and says is yes we absolutely see. We have the model of customer service for all of our relationships and in my group and the operations group. But I think there's another model that is even more fundamental that Beth Ann and her team and me and my team share and that is we're in. The same game. There is the institutional message mission to share art creativity and our shared humanity with the broadest possible audience, and we are aligned together to make that happen. The corny business stuff really does play an important role in helping figure out how to how to get better at what we're doing. And I'll give some credit to our, our relatively new leadership at our institution for making that plane. And for backing the specifics of the sustainability stuff we have new tablets have come down from the mountaintop. One has the zoo etched on it. We're not much more than that we're, we're charged with figuring out how to make it happen, but we do have, we do have the, the right big message coming from the, the institutional leadership to, to, to give us the confidence and the, the, the, the opportunity to try new things and make these changes. That's great. That's so important. And I just want to add that I agree with Beth Ann's what she said earlier is that, you know, the conservators and the building managers having a partnership and a dialogue. And, you know, customer is a great kind of way of looking at it. But I think even before that happens and it's really important to, I want to get this out there. If you don't know where to start form a committee of people, and it does not have to come from leadership. It can just be a committee of people at lunch discussing, hey, today we're going to talk about sustainability at lunch. And then they're in find through that discourse over, you know, a couple of lunches, find an initiative you want to chase. And then what happens is people who can contribute to that initiative will start to surface. Traditionally, and when we're in this context, it's the conservators and the building managers talking about energy right the conservators have their goals for preservation. Building managers need to maintain that but we now see hey but to maintain that I'm destroying the larger, you know, the larger museum of the earth. And I think, you know, it could, it could be somebody, it could be a security officer in that same meeting that may suggest something that we all gives us pause and we look at so I think that the very first thing you can do as you're searching is form a group of people and prioritize the discussion to be about sustainability. It can come from leadership, or it can come from the bottom up it can very much be a grassroots thing. I think everybody has bought into this we know it's happening. So you, you will pick up support and supporters who will pick up ideas. So I just want to stress that it include a large group of people. Excuse me when you don't know where to start, and you'll find your way. Which by the way Chris is how we met isn't it. Yeah, and we have a sustainability committee and subcommittees here at the Met and you were yeah you were the guest person at one of our subcommittees and it definitely brought more people to the table, created more support, and also it expanded the different things we could do. And so I think that that's where you start you start by getting a coalition together of anyone who's interested with sustainability and resiliency as the priority. I really love that I think that's a really nice segue to this next question, which is what has been effective at each of your institutions for gaining support for these projects, and who has been essential in seeing and helping to facilitate moving them forward. I'm going to toss this over to you because you've been at this a little bit longer than I have. One thing that this work requires in institutions like mine and I, my notes and Chris's notes about what life is like inside our, the walls of our institutions suggest some pretty deep similarities. I'm changing hard for museums. And so the antidote for that is irrational and energetic optimism on finding creating networks of people who think it's important. They want to want to want to work on it and are willing to. You want to walk the line between cheerleading and being a nudge carefully, but you have to take the risk of of only getting on folks wrong side by being enthusiastic about both telling the truth and and seeing a good idea as a way forward. Lucky, we've got at the at the National Gallery we do have support at for sustainability at the top, but these, if you're not in a private business with a profit motive, it is hard for to get people. You can't tell folks what to do that everybody has their, both their own opinion and enough security to say no if they want to so you got to, it's a, I describe it as inside sales. You need, you need to be confident relentless and patient. I would, I would add to what Brock says that first off here here at the Met, we also have been very fortunate and there's been tremendous support as different goals and ambitions have been identified. I think that the challenge for big institutions as well as little as you start to identify different goals and initiatives to try and help is the dollars. Right. And we all know that. So I think you know that that's what we're casting around for now but there's definitely as as the idea materializes, I think you will find that there is internal support at all levels of your institutions with regard to sustainability. Challenges may seem like there, there's a lack of support, but you need to almost gift wrap ideas and options to address the challenges as they come up. If it's financial, and you're the passionate person on that project, and you think about it as you're falling asleep at night. You strategize ways that you can present solutions or different options to those people that can make the decisions, or if you're one of those people making the decisions and probably already do it by nature. So I think you know you want to support the people that are passionate and let it run with them, but also the guidance to kind of like as the challenge comes up, understanding how to package it in a way where, you know, here's option A, here's option B, here's where that we could get dollars from this source or, you know, we need to partner with this particular city agency. You know, if you happen to be a municipal institution, you start to kind of imagine ways to gift wrap things to kind of make the need to, or the decisions happen. Because I think so often, at least in my position I've seen in the past, you know, where you come up with a great initiative and you drop it on leadership's desk, and then you wait for them to kind of act on it. And I think that in the case of sustainability and resiliency and the environment, you almost have to drop the idea on the desk, and then kind of give pathways and options. And then when somebody kind of gives you a roadblock it's because they care, then you have to address that roadblock and give answers and solutions to that and that helps keeping it going. It's also important that those people that are giving those solutions have to be the passionate about it because in what we do, what we all do in cultural institutions, sustainability doesn't really, except for you, Brock, doesn't typically have a department to work on it. So you're kind of have to rely on the passionate people to direct it. And there are institutions that have energy managers and that's becoming more common, but if you, if you're a smaller institution or institution that you don't have it, you need to find the passionate people, and they need to be aware that they have to gift wrap the ideas, give wrap the solutions to the challenges as they come up. So if we're finding that if what we are trying to attain can be done incrementally, then that has been easier to roll out than swinging for the fences. So, the set points, the temperature and humidity set points are a perfect example of a goal that can be attained in increments. And saying that there are review times and pivot moments has really helped us to get over the start line on this initiative. And I think that that's true for many of the other things that Brock and the larger sustainability group here at the National Gallery are working on how do we get to each of these goals in increments. And that has been a lot more palatable. So there are two really great wrapping, right. Yeah, there are two really great questions in the chat that I'm going to address, or I'm going to ask before this ends, I'm going to start with the most recent one just because I think it is building on this conversation that we're already having. So Griffith man has asked, what should be the role of institutional leaders in embracing these efforts. Many of these initiatives seem more broadly embraced below where you go in the institution and that has definitely been my experience at places that I've worked to. And you have all noted that you do have that institutional support. But you know like what should we be asking of the leadership in these large institutions, when it comes to sustainability. A clear statement of commitment to strategic commitment to progress on that that a vision. We may not. I certainly don't always think that every decision that gets made by senior senior leadership is impeccable, but I am deeply grateful that that the clear statement of strategic commitment to sustainability was made early and is continuing to be made. At that point, it really has to be the work of people who are standing next to the the actual problems to figure out how to how to act. You wouldn't want the leadership to prescribe solutions to things those solutions won't be as good as solutions developed by people who are who are who have the problem directly in front of them. I think I think leadership understands it in many cases in larger institutions understands sustainability and resiliency as a need, especially with what's happening in the world around us. I think that having almost I would say almost having internally and even externally like a symposium, where leadership kind of gets together on this topic and not one topic amongst many might be advantageous. It's tough for me to comment on that I appreciate Mr man's question, because I'm not leadership, right. I, you know, we're kind of where the paladins of leadership in some ways, and trying to get things done and and and so I don't know but I would say that. You know, a specific meeting focus symposium, internally externally on the subject of sustainability and resiliency initiatives could move the ball forward because it kind of earmarks it as as an important thing, as much as the objects, as much as the social stability of a building or the museum, right. It kind of elevates the conversation a little bit so that's but I again I don't know how they are talking about it, but from my perspective that might be a first step. And then this I think will be the final question. This is from Al Carver Kubik and I apologize if I mispronounced your last name. And this is for the National Gallery of Art folks. What data will you collect to determine success or safety temperature and our age dimensional change. Also, are you looking at seasonal settings for all spaces so gallery collection spaces public spaces and office spaces. So, when, when our pilot phase is up, we will be looking at all of the temperature and relative humidity data for a large number of our art containing spaces is my role. Let Brock speak to the settings for all of the art containing and non art containing spaces and how we will make that assessment. It's, we touched on this earlier but the fact is that the way the building was buildings were laid out and relate 30s and, and there are only 70s for for our two big buildings. There wasn't really a lot of functional space assignment that survived to the present day so almost all of the systems operate as if they are addressing. They are providing art storage conditions. We may be able to change some spaces because, because while that's true, it is much less true in some corners of the building and with working closely with Bethanne and her team. We may be able to make some changes for office spaces but right now we run. It's, it's 7050 everywhere all the time. On this side we, we do. We are lucky we have a very extensive building automation system that collects and has collected for many years, detailed condition data for almost every room in the 100, the million and a half square feet so we were, we will have a lot of data to review. So going forward, how we assign spaces and how we lay out future mechanical systems as we, as we replace them. This is a great place for us to look at ways to cut our carbon impact. So we have two more minutes. Is there anything that any of you just want to add, unprompted that you think it's important to communicate today. And it's okay if it's. I do have one. So, we are just about to publish our sustainability implementation plan years in the making, and we're excited about it, but one of the things that's very specifically a goal in that plan. I'm excited to report a conversation yesterday with the member of senior leadership where the same that that vision was was shared is that it's really important to us to build a network of practice, a network of practice for sustainability. And we want to make friends with, there's about 60 people on this call, and we are all probably in similar places on our journey. Shoot us an email, give us a call, stop by. We want to build the network and we think we can work together to make progress more quickly and and with better results if we do it together. So thank you. That's a perfect place to end. And you can take a picture if you would like of this slide. And we've also put the content info for everyone in the chat. Because I think as this conversation has proven it's just really important to share information connect with colleagues and to collaborate both within your own institution and then, you know, reaching out to folks who are interested in the same thing and other institutions. I want to thank these three speakers so so much. It was such a pleasure doing this with you. And I've learned so much I was very lucky to have multiple conversations with everyone before this started and I just feel like I've taken I will take so much with me. As I continue this work. So thank you all so so much this will be recorded and shared on YouTube and I will be sure to email the link to the forums and also to our speakers so you can share it with with friends and colleagues so thank you again. Everyone. Thank you. Bye everyone.