 Hello. Welcome to the sixth episode of Ignato for Breakfast. I'm still under the impression of feminist solidarity. Almost 100,000 people together at a very strong demonstration in Madrid, my city on March 8th. That was exceeding all expectations. It has also been on March 8th marked by the war in Ukraine. And in this moment where everyone is looking towards Ukraine, but also forgetting a bit about Yemen, Western Sahara, Palestine or Congo, we need a collective response. A common feminist agenda for peace. Also, we need to create our own frame as feminists to explain important elements that now are in dispute. Like war is not peace. Like militarism cannot prevent war. Or that militarized solidarity is a contradiction in itself. Or also that war and destruction is not inevitable. That's why we call on our friend Christine Cart, co-chair of the No-to-war, No-to-nato network, and part of the group Woman Against NATO. She's active in environmental peace and feminist movement. And she's part also of EcoMujer, an organization with human women that work on ecofeminism and peace. Christine is here today to talk to us and to help us think together about this important moment for feminism and peace. Hello, Christine. Glad to be with you today. First of all, how did you spend International Woman's Day in Dusseldorf, Christine? Hello, Otto, Gessa. I spent March 8th as a normal working day in Dusseldorf because, unfortunately, it's only a bank holiday in Berlin and not in other regions in Germany. And we had a Saturday before March 8th a demonstration in Dusseldorf for women rights. And we were also active in February 14th on one billion rising against violence. Against women. So it's a much normal day for me. That's interesting. Thank you. Thank you, Christine. I mean, women have been protesting and being demonstrating for a century also against war. And we have many examples out of the German history, such as Kato Kowicz, who spoke out against war a century ago, when it seemed that the workers' movement in Germany was so hopeful that there would be a better future and then World War I broke it all and broke these fragile alliances among workers' movements of all the world. And it seems that we are in a weirdly similar polarized situation right now again. And she pointed out that peace is by no means a default setting in capitalism, but that pacifism is not simply a matter of staying calm or looking on, but that it is indeed hard work. And we need to explore what NATO has to do with all that. We've been looking at NATO's history and NATO's current agenda, for example, in regards to China. We've explored the responsibility that NATO carries for the current conflict in Ukraine in the show before last. And we have highlighted some of the actions of our friends in the peace movement, demonstrating for peace and against militarization of budgets against NATO, for example, in Belgium and in Italy and in other places. Before we get started on the different questions that we have prepared for this week, there are a few organizational points. First of all, of course, Eat NATO for Breakfast is part of the Peace Summit. The Peace Summit is a unitary space mobilizing towards the NATO Summit, which will take part in Madrid this June. Please check out our website, sign our declaration, and also, very important, join us for our next open plenary, where we will be discussing the mobilizations that we want to see, that we want to work towards in Madrid. The next open plenary is next Saturday, March 19, at 3pm CET. Again, registration and everything is on the website, which we will post in the public chat so that you can check it out. Also, we want to shout out to our friends from People's Dispatch, Yay, who are making all this happen and who are hosting us so kindly. And also, one last thing, because we can, we want to recommend an event that is happening later today by our friends of No Cold War. You may remember in the third episode, we talked with Fiona and Ajit about this No Cold War on China, this New Cold War on China, and what this is all about. And at 3pm today, they will be talking about racism, witch hunts and the New Cold War. There will also be a link in the chat, in the comment section, so that you can check it out and maybe join in. But let's get started on today's topic, feminism, feminist agenda, off NATO, against NATO, et cetera, et cetera. We have a few guiding questions, and we look forward to discussing them with Christina. Laura, take it away. The first thing that we want to talk is acknowledging that we are in a time of battle of ideas that in the media and social networks, there are thousands of mentions to freedom and democracy while they are talking, in fact, about war. Feminists have been working for some 200 years, creating new words and filling others with new meanings. We have been in the battle against the concept of patriarchal universality that excluded us women, black people, indigenous and colonized people as citizens. We have developed an analysis of power relations, of the oppression of the poor. We have redefined freedom, equality and fraternity. Now, what battle of ideas must we lead for a real and sustainable peace, Christine? I think it's always the same battles. And it's very important that, yeah, I think not only to speak about equality, but also to speak about justice, because with equality, we hide real underlying patriarchal hierarchical structures and make invisible all the suppressed people and women and also people of colors and poor people. And one point to get women visible and give women the chance to participate also in all structures and societal relevance was the UN Security Council Resolution 1325. It was declared or decided in the year 2000 and it was the first time that women not only recognized as victims of wars and violence, but it also recognized women and actors in the society and want to give them the possibility to really take part in all negotiations of society, especially in conflict situation and in post-conflict situation. And NATO also tried to implement these UN Security Council Resolution and used it to force the militarization of the society because they include women in their tool and their dirty job to kill people because nothing else is what a soldier do and what the task of the soldier is. And therefore we have to keep this UN Security Resolution out of NATO and we have to overcome NATO and also the militarization driven by NATO and not only NATO, he drives this militarization. Also the EU is part of this militarization and drives this further on. And the real problem of the militarization and the work against is that we have to define new steps we want to have on this task, women peace and security and this is to redefine security as a security without military and common security without any enemy pictures and to have it based on cooperation and not on confrontation. And these human security also have to think about mutual relationships between different countries and have to respect all the sovereignty of the others and the security issues of the others because our security is only possible if we also respect the security purposes of our counter and only together we can overcome this militarization and confrontation and of course we also have to see that we overcome this underlying structures like you said earlier Nora, patriarchal and hierarchical power structures which are related to militarism and militarism reproduces always these structures and these are not helpful for solidarity, society, democracy and participation. Yeah, that's true. Thank you, Christine. I want to go back to the visualizing women. There is like in liberal feminism there's an idea that we just, you know, visualizing women creating jobs at the top will somehow change things. For example, NATO is in fact looking for a woman as secretary general. You laugh, it's not yet exactly known who will replace Norway's Jens Stoltenberg whose term ends in September 30th, 2022 and he's not eligible for reelection but there's broad consensus in NATO that his replacement should be chosen but scheduled in Madrid so this is another interesting point for us organizing the peace summit should actually be a woman. So for the first time in 73 years history a woman could occupy this highest political office of the world's leading military alliance. Some people, some would call themselves feminist would see this proposal as an advance but of course it is just a whitewashing and it gives a progressive modern image while at the same time maintaining the same dynamics of control and destruction. Like what would we say? What difference would it make if Theresa May or Ursula von der Leyen, some of the proposed women maybe they find another would suddenly run NATO and then there's another point about that is frequently made when feminists want to talk about peace and the peace agenda and they're being met with a strange essentialist theory of how women are how war is a man's business and somehow women are more peaceful and more peaceful by nature and for example if women would run the world or if women were just in charge then there would be no more wars which is also a ridiculous theory or not really a theory to begin with and is of course also not true in hindsight for example the situation in the Ukraine must be understood and this is history that is not even mentioned anymore in the current debate around the conflict must be understood concerning also Julia Timoshenko who went from being the sort of Joan of Arc of the pro-European orange revolution to falling into complete disgrace due to corruption. Julia Timoshenko is the embodiment of this energy and political of the political oligarchies that divided the post-Soviet that divided the Soviet Union from within and like filleted completely and then there is someone that we do hear currently about Victoria Nuland of Ukrainian origin foreign policy advisor to the democratic government in the US and also the person who was leaked to have said fuck the you which reminded us of how little the European Union actually plays a role in the current conflict so women do make war and women at the helm of NATO will not save us so what are the real arguments that we need to think about when we think about patriarchy and war I'd like to hear Nora on this one we've debated this frequently well as you were pointing out Francisca and Christine one thing is to be civilized women and then is for what right how is the perspective in this frame that we are trying to explain and exchange on how feminism has also a framework on their own to explain security and also an alternative project for us in the planet so basically when we think about patriarchy and capitalism we need to think about this as an alliance that runs the system war in fact is a tool for maintaining the domination the oppression and also producing fear that then you know will be facing facing it with war so a feminist approach to war is for sure not that woman which is for the nuclear button this is not feminism but rather to be part of the dialogue as Christine was saying as the solution part of the table where a piece is pushed forward and try to make it so we should be part of the solution of conflicts as well as tackling the reasons that lie behind war as Christine was saying before the geopolitical interests the economic interests we need to think and that's the critique of view that feminism brings us to see the world in fact we are very preoccupied that with the unfolding of the Ukrainian war now NATO would be reinforced and supported we need to fight the consensus building by the corporate media and bring our feminist proposals to the table that the oppressed don't want women to kill our responsibility lies with the oppressed if we want to fight patriarchy and war we need to promote an international peace process that disbands NATO that abolishes nuclear weapons etc so as always the feminist arguments is in fact to challenge violence not to be part of it we know that violence is not inevitable we have a dignified life for all peoples that means that every life is valuable that means that we as women need to think on the consequences mental health the destruction of communities and the daily life for people the access to education is a stop when we are in the midst of war the health security I don't know the access to electricity this daily life we need to support we cannot defend the actual power structures we have to challenge them we have to explain that the struggle for peace must be an anti-imperial struggle that fights against an economic, political and cultural system that oppresses us also that uses violence against us and that destroys the planet many of us have seen the graphics in fact that explains gender violence and I think this is a very very good example we this graphic is like an iceberg and at the tip of of the iceberg are the feminicides like the assassination of women that is like the most extreme and visible violence that we suffer and that at the base is the sexual division of labor the double exploitation of women the care work that we need to to take over feminists as we say in Spain we have a plan we are going to change the system and we say this because we need to think about what's in the base of the iceberg how is war being forged capitalism and patriarchy uses war against us that is to say that the system produces wars and destruction that it does not know how to resolve and we are left to pick up these pieces being in fact the life jacket of daily life on our back is the reproduction of life these in the context of war hunger and poverty is multiplied so feminists have to fill with meaning strategy and political articulation and active peace that defends the interests of collateral damage or acceptable loss that's the way that those people call us in particular feminist economics provides many keys on how to move towards a system of peace and social justice as Christine was saying before a historical feminist claim in Spain in fact when we go to mobilization is neither war that destroy us nor peace that oppresses us that's why we understand that peace is not only a ceasefire feminism challenge the status quo thank you, Christina do you want to yes I want to add maybe first I will remember to quote of Adana Shiva she told us women are not more peaceful and making the care work because of their genes they are doing this and more for the environment and they are doing this because they are put down to this work with a lower value and the work for men are work with a higher value they are in the industry and all on the other place and the so called production places and women are put down and the production places and this is a hierarchical structure and this we have to overcome and for me it's dualism which attacks women in every situation and not only women it's also peoples of colors and also LGBT communities and others that sees different values and this we have to overcome and we have to overcome that we working in a society based of capitalism, racism and militarism where values like rivalry and competition and extreme individualism are the main values with a very high level and all the so called female values like concern and reconciliation and taking care for us and also in the economy make it as working this commons and solidarity economy and things like this have to put in the front of everything and not these so called masculine values because these are also on the physiological way causes for all the violence against all those who are not able to resist really these violence and it leads to a toxic masculinity which is necessary to get people at least mostly men really fighting in a in the war and kill other people because and this we have to overcome that we also overcome this in our societies and look what have happened with the corona pandemic NATO and at least also the German army fighting against corona as they called it but at least they were militarizing the society the Bundeswehr the German army was placed in the cities and in the health system to support them but at least they also bring with them their hierarchical and patriarchal power structures and the value of the trained workers was oh what should I say wasn't really respected things that we can do it better in this bad way and I also have to see how we can overcome this yeah I think you are both in you're both speaking about the same topic that we need to address sort of the root causes of violence and talk about violence that exists already in the society and only finds its explosion in a war so and I think that we need to address this these root causes of violence from with a feminist lens and also we need to maybe take that moment women rise up against war and defend peace in very diverse kind of ways and for many people who are now suddenly being in this shocked situation of having the conflict in the Ukraine break out maybe that is a moment to talk more to take this opportunity to talk more about the already existing violence for many women to actually rise up against war and defend peace this comes from direct experiences of a violent conflict but also of poverty and situations that are only secondary related to a direct war such as sanctions for example that would also like economic sanctions which have a huge impact on the lives of ordinary people and then also of women so we need to make sure that we are confronting these realities and the reality of violence in our society all the time but we also need to fight against war because we have a commitment to put the needs and well-being of the people by the way of all people at the center and this is another thing that we are viewing that we are watching right now with the conflict in the Ukraine we need to put the needs and well-being of all people at the center not just white or blue-eyed people as is being stated by some in the media the needs of Afghan Yemeni, Kongoli, Sahari or Palestinian women are also important to us and we need to fight to ensure a dignified life instead of market profits and the rise of hatred, intolerance and the extreme right which always come together and oppresses us we know that even if bombs do not fall on our heads violence takes many forms economic pressures and such as sanctions, increasing racism etc they have a specific impact on us and so to raise the no to war as our only banner places us sometimes in a naive and somewhat passive situation that is not only not useful anymore but never been useful particularly so this is why the peace agenda is a feminist agenda and I think this is another important question what do we need to put on the feminist agenda right now first and foremost in a moment when there is a lot of confusion about what a peaceful world should look like or could look like and what we should really be mobilizing for because this is again I think an experience that many of us have made in the last weeks that mobilizing around peace brings together an awkward alliance of people who may be shouting peace but when you question it a little further raising in the military budget is difficult to see how this will increase our all security or how this will lead to peace so maybe a sort of a last word Christina maybe you can give us some advice on how do we how do we mobilize where do we address where do we put the main issues how do we act in this you know how do we stay true to a feminist agenda for peace in a moment that seems to tear us in all different directions and also obfuscates you know our perhaps more long-term organizing right now I think the first point is to really put an agenda for peace independent a feminist or not feminist agenda on the table because this went away now everyone cry not everyone but even in the peace movement there are voices for sanctions against Russia and you told us Franzi said sanctions harm the normal people and not the oligarch maybe of course you can take away the property of the oligarch but most sanctions are harms the normal people and also harms German people living in Germany and this we have to address and also weapons are not a tool for peace weapons are always killing peoples and weapons are destroying the environment and war are destroying the environment and therefore the only tool for peace is negotiations and we have also to talk with the aggressor and find solutions out of this terrible situation and of course the first is to get a ceasefire and to let people out of the conflicts zone and then it's a second step we have to see that we really can overcome the causes of war and violence and build civil human social ecological gender justice society but first we have to get the weapons stop firing and get again in a dialogue with conflict parties to come to peaceful and civil solutions in this conflict situation and instead of spending 100 billion dollars like in Germany now to the army to get it better as a defense army which is nothing to do with defense these new weapons they want to buy this is a aggressive weapon we need this urgently for social and economical reasons and also to help all the refugees coming from Ukraine to Germany right now and not only we also have still refugees from Afghanistan and Syria and we have to stop to push them back in their countries there's nothing to do with peace and in society there's a lot of structural violence it's complicated to live in peace because this reproduces all these violence and the poorest the most effective as always yeah very much now I think that as you are as you are seeing Christine we need a common agenda but we need a common agenda with also the feminist lens the feminist framework and we need to work together all the peace movement and also as you were saying before all the movements that in fact are fighting for social justice social justice cannot be found in the middle of a hungry crisis because of sanctions right so this common sense we need to push forward we need this kind of consensus building the same way that they do we need this kind of common strategy for sure for me as feminist I see some small things very clear the same way that it's not okay for men to mistreat a woman or saying that feminicides are natural or inevitable we must be saying together that work is not inevitable right because violence is inevitable there are other ways to solve this and I think that we are part of this material reality this violence is suffered in our bodies in first person so we cannot naturalize all those people suffering if they are in Russia or they are in Ukraine also as you were pointing out at the beginning I want to reinforce the idea of being invisible we have been fighting for hundreds of years because we were invisible but not only me that I'm in Madrid and I'm white and I'm part of the imperialist powers or colonized powers but also this is I think the moment you tackle of on our own contradictions those I don't know statements on those are not refugees they are white with blue eyes we need to fight that we need to precisely now talk who is invisible we need to push forward also a common piece agenda that explains the situation on Palestine right those people that are fighting with their bare hands with you know silence like in German like in Congo like in I don't know in a lot of places so we have to uplift the invisible conflicts and also connect the dots all those words as you were saying of these systemic structures that lies behind this situation of polarization right or you were saying like these two options in life like we are the third option that is not like Blair's but is one that can change how we see each other and for sure now another thing that we can really tackle as feminists like everyone is talking again about nuclear power I'm 34 and when I hear the nuclear theme I hear it in like in movies like something in the past and now again the nuclear issue is being I don't know at the forefront of the commentary so why we are talking about this again right this is very dangerous as you were saying like the planet we need to be focused on the real issues and I think that this is a really good moment to connect the peace agenda with the feminist agenda so I don't want to keep it very long but the refugee issue at least to us as Europeans and feminists we need to also connect it with the project of the European Union with refugees the issue of those being white and we are all receiving it for us in Spain very very difficult this discourse because we have this southern border where people has been killed where people that comes through the Mediterranean you know they are mistreated they are killed they are violated so I think that we have to really analyze together the moment and try to think to push forward elements that come to these routes and that bring also elements we cannot be feminist only for our issues but the same way that we talk about violence we need to connect it with peace thank you thank you Nora I think this is a really good moment to well to remind or to ask all of you to join us next Saturday because we will be talking with two awesome activists from the antifrontex people who will talk to us about the militarized border regimes about this fortress Europe that Nora was just mentioning this you know neoliberal project or colonial project of keeping Europe to the Europeans no matter what that is being heralded as at the moment and also what role NATO for example NATO plays as a military alliance in the displacements of people around the world and how this all again connecting the dots so I would like to invite all of you to join us next Saturday on this conversation I would like again to ask you to check out the peace summit website because all the dates and information will also be there and of course tell your friends and comrades to join us to disband to fight for disbanding NATO and creating an actual sustainable peace worldwide we all need it any I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to say goodbye so any last words please go for it and I thank you again for tuning in and watching us and thank you Christine for making the time thank you for giving me the chance to tell something about no to NATO issues and the militarization driven by NATO and for me the most important place is to make feminist issues visible because feminist issues are human issues and personally I think to overcome the neoliberal individualistic approach to societies we have to come back to societies as communities which are working together and which are producing together one example is on one side Cuba and on the other side look to Rojava and Kurds in northern Syria they are examples how we can build up better at least feminist societies and this way we have to support and go on and see that women will be visible and have the chance of participation in justice not only as a second choice I think that all this history of struggles in Cuba, in Rojava but also in all these conflicts like the woman in Iraq the woman in Algeria the woman in Vietnam in Afghanistan I think that all this history of feminist struggle for a lasting peace has taught us that peace is full in fact of courage and struggle so forward sisters let's fight for a peace that is not just a ceasefire but a transformation of this violent world into solidarity, mutual respect equality, rights operation and for sure sustainability with the planet so never forget that weapons will not save us, we will so see you next time today thank you bye bye