 This thing is about the future of Debconf, not about the new location for Debconf or something. It's more about some mutual background for Debconf. Similar to what SPI is for Debian, I want something created for the Debconf stuff. I've made a few slides, but no lemurs, so just take it as points. I just read it and tell what I feel is more a note for me. At the moment Debconf is run by different people every year. There are people joining and leaving the organization. Mostly Stockholm is the one staying there. Olga for a few years, I've joined for this year. And so it goes on and off. We have multiple sponsors this year, I think 32. And we have lots of monies that we get and that we get out. And every year we have a different legal umbrella for the conference, which also means that we have left over money most of the time. I don't know the exact amounts, but there is left over money in Helsinki, Finland, in Brazil. And I'm sure there will be some left over money here in Mexico too. So money for Debconf is spread far away all over the world. And there is also unclean liability. What happens if something breaks down very badly? Who is responsible for that? At the moment one could fetch the main organizer and get his document to the prison. I think he wouldn't like it. And that's why I and multiple other persons are thinking about a legal umbrella for the Debconf things, which has at least a chair, a cashier, a secretary and substitutes for everything, like every normal thing has. So we have something defined. Having bylaws defining the rules. Who can be a member? What can be done? Where goes the money that we get? So we can point all the sponsors directly at that. And if you give us money you see we will only use it for Debconf, something like that. It has also the benefit of limited liability for the different people doing things on Debconf. And we can have one bank account of its own for the whole thing. The central bank account where all the money goes. We will stay with the local bank account for the running Debconf because we need money locally. But after that is finished one gets out of the budget and gets the rest of the money back to the central account which can be easily used for the next one. You also have the possibility of advanced financing, where you can have money after you are sure that you get it from the sponsors and can have the money before it arrives on your bank account. So that things like travel sponsorship where the money isn't there in time or other expenses you have and you need to wait for sponsors doesn't happen. Because you can use the money after you have the okay from the sponsors. This makes you a bit more flexible in stuff. You could also go and get consulting for legal and fiscal issues. Like every year you have a budget to give all to the members or so and can ask people that know their stuff and do that as business to help you with it to make it easier. And I think it's also easy to cooperate with sponsors. Because it's not one random person or two random persons. Sorry, it's not cool but in case you are random. One of the dev developers asking for money. But it's a dev company organization asking for the money. So it's clear who wants the money and what for. So the next one is Ufu. Because I do want to have an open discussion where the pros and cons of this plan to get an organization product could be. I think I can add or correct some things first. Usually we have only minimal amounts of money left after Debiton. Last year we were able to understand very precisely. Because we had a much better understanding of what the budget would be like. And the money that we did have over as left over money was mostly like the money that we collected from bottles. And from things like recycling bottles. The environment. But still we had some money left. And then we did have left over money because we didn't break anything which we budgeted for. And we got back down payments from the dawn. So we had about one or no. Actually around 7 or 6% of the total budget. That was the budget that we advanced. 7,000? Yeah. About all that. You're also. Yeah. Before in Brazil we didn't have left over money. The money that we had there in Brazil was there because the HP check could be checked or cash. Because in time we wanted to do it exactly like this year to reimburse people right away at the conference. And that didn't work because the check needed 45 days. So we just going to short it ahead of Debiton. And in no way we didn't have money after paying plus. We have left over bills at all actually. So we came off most of the plus minus, plus minus zero. This one would be different because we weren't able to budget properly because of uncertainties regarding the local things. And because we, yeah, mostly because actually our main sponsors didn't get the receipt of money from the main sponsor. Not so far. And for that reason we had to cut our budget at some points and to save the money because we didn't have any to spend. But we, well, we will still get the huge amount of money that we get from that sponsor. But we should not be named. And, yes, hopefully we won't misuse our sponsors' money in the future for the private. Because we got it earmarked for that conference. Yes, I don't want to say that I do not trust those people that have the money at the moment. But I think it would be better to have it in a local account. But maybe the money from Helsinki could be used for some payments in advance for this year. Something like that for the next year and stuff like that. And that you have one debt per account of the whole time where you have a complete budget over the whole. There are problems with that. For example, for Brazil that wasn't possible because Brazil has very strict rules for moving money in. So far we have a similar situation. That's also stopped us quite a bit. I mean, we don't have the strict rules but we are afraid because touching a larger amount of money opens us for investigation. And as we are running back up on our personal account well, a guy can get out of it. And it's not easy to face out of it. Even if we had a local account having it owned by the corporation or the other people at the time it would still probably be better because no individual would be addressed like that. That's even harder. We try to do this using the name of the soil. The problem is in this country, well, something similar to what happened with SPI. It's not in this country. You have to be careful when you're making suggestions about how bank accounts should be set up that you don't display excessive emergency of international banking law and procedure. It is a real mess. And in fact, even just trying to get to one direction across international boundaries into the right place in Mexico has been a challenge. So there are two things I wanted to ask actually. One, I'm curious to understand why we're talking in sort of the context of creating a new legal organization instead of taking advantage of something like SPI that already exists. Is there a particular reason for that? Or is it just generally the idea that there are already some infestations on board? It's generally an idea. And SPI, I haven't considered it because I think it will be a long time until then another debt comes to the US with the current regulations there. So I haven't checked for a US organization for that. Aren't there European free software organizations that can be used in the same way that SPI could be used? There's the trend that you see, some of you have said it a lot sometimes, some of you might say have much load of deductions in there. There's two flags to the US question though, right? I mean, one of them is what's the likelihood of actually holding a debt account there? The other one is what fraction of the total sponsorship money is either coming from there or being dispersed in regards to the amount of money in places that's easier to money out of the US from. I don't know the answer to that, I'm just playing these out of this. I think the real question for you to expand it is quite often difficult to get money out, in and out, for example, from lexicon codes, obviously, but actually by lexicon money you need to go to buy my data, you need to go to lexicon code. So perhaps there are also some shortcuts that we could take in future. And if a man or something else would say, if it's some European organization, actually it's not so hard to find a good, it's definitely a good organization. I have done that before time show that, so it's not so hard to make a good start. So I don't think it's definitely necessary to hack into piggyback on existing wall, and it would be SPI of course, we already piggyback on SPI, so that's what we'll hear us, but it's also SPI. First of all, from my experience, a lot of the sponsors have come from the US or countries through getting money to the US is not hard, and certainly the ones I've been dealing with, understandably. But also, it's not too, probably well in advance of the next time this relates to DEBCON, probably in the next several months, we'll probably sign up with an international payment system called FTCRA, which actually allows paying to lots of countries in lots of currencies, including the euro and probably the peso, it actually allows SPI to move money reasonably quickly, easily between countries, so it's not as bad an option even if it won't be held in the US. As well as moving money around, on the question of liability, there's obviously a lot of issues that come up, you have a corporation in one country and you want to operate DEBCON in another country, you can't just go and do that without asking anyone, needing house recognitions. And yes, there's a reason but I still do want to have a local thing for the running DEBCON, but I want a general thing for the whole DEBCON. I also have a question of why, I mean I think it should be a sort of last resort to have a DEBCON specific organization, rather than using existing contractors, just because why do we need to run lots of these things? And if we do, how do we go to the side to what the rules there are? What's the membership? How's it run? How's it run? Do you have a problem because each country that you think about hosting a DEBCON fin is going to have different rules about not only how you form such organizations, but what the ownership of them. What we're discussing, we have to be careful because there's sort of two sets of things that are being discussed here. One is sort of the overarching organization for the long-term health and well-being of our ability to run conferences on behalf of the DEBCON project. The other piece is some of your points related more specifically to managing liability for any specific set of organizers of a specific conference and making sure that there's some legal recourse if something horrible happens. And I guess this year we've had a sense that we're not immune to things that we don't expect happening. So these are all valid concerns that we probably need to keep clear on our mind that there are sort of different categories of concern here. It might be possible to address one side of the government. I think we're at an interesting point. I know some examples in Germany some well-working volunteer organizations try to formalize this process and later on they're maybe eating a third with some kind of meta-discussion and all that stuff. You might have your own in the lean or for lean or stuck for more proper example. So if we try to formalize this thing we would like to try to make sure that such things don't happen to us The bylaws should be generated over the next weeks or months and should be really well written to mostly of all stuff. One advantage of using SPI or some other U.S. nonprofit corporation for at least our U.S. sponsors which seems to be a fairly major portion of our sponsorship is the nonprofit status. I don't know if we're currently using that but it may mean we could get a lot more money from the U.S. We are currently the receiving of this sponsorship is not the bottom line. Usually we look for more sponsors rather than have problems receiving the nonprofit. I think it's fair. It's a U.S. nonprofit. If it's actually getting more money then they're going to have to buy it. It may be possible but if you have it on the organization it's fine. Can someone from the U.S. explain this? Yeah. SPI is a specific type of nonprofit which is true for most charities in the U.S. where donations from U.S. individuals or corporations not in exchange for some service are tax deductible and they give people a break on their taxes they reduce their taxable income and that makes corporations in the U.S. more willing to donate to an entity in the U.S. with this status than to a non-U.S. entity even if it is also a nonprofit. Wait, wait, wait. Yes, second please. It's also it's also a thought to make if it's in an organization in Europe maybe to make it a tax deductible thing in the country I'm planning at the moment with it because it's also relatively easy to do that there and you can and you can you can also work together with other organizations like SPI that they get some money and transfer it to the next one or something. That's not as easy to deal with there's restrictions on transferring money. The problem we don't notice is that you have to show you're not actually having a profit. That's the problem we have at this time as we couldn't show that the money would be nonprofit we couldn't use it. So that's the reason we ended up using a personal account. Now I don't think we should form a new organization I mean up to this year because we couldn't handle this as we should all the countries we have had that company had some kind of organization that gave us the local legal name and I think that's the most workable scheme for the future because maybe we can get an organization SPI already exists in the US and we will get something that works well let's hope for all of the European Union but we're facing the Bosnia which is not part of the European Union and the European organization will not work there and every country we visit outside this sphere will be the same problem. I'm not happy with it. I think Peter wanted to point out we have to separate the restatial part from the financial part these are two different things because for the financial part it's important that the sponsors have the advantage of text deduction no matter where they are I want to make a small clarification too with regard to the US tax and status in SPI the first piece is that you must understand that the tax benefit accrues to the person donating the money not to the organization receiving it and so the only way it can actually help the organization receiving the funds is if it causes the organization giving them funds to feel more generous and I'm here to tell you that for a company of a financial scale like HP or IDN or Intel that doesn't matter at all for the amount of money that we're talking about I don't think that finance people are even willing to do the paperwork for the amount of money that's involved it matters a lot to individual contributors it matters a lot to small businesses that might want to give a few hundred dollars or euros or something like this and we certainly don't want to discourage things like that so taking care of the tax and status as much as possible as many places as possible is good but don't be confused into believing that somehow that magic will get you a bigger channel of money well if somebody says to the UK they've worked through the ground I don't think we're going to start a charitable organization in the UK with as much ties and rules if you could though you do actually get more money as much money as the organization rather than that thing but as you point out there's a relatively easy to get 501c3 or 501c5 status in the US it's very hard to get these statuses otherwise because of the way it works when extra people point out that the US works equally well for Germany and it's also not too hard to get such status basically it's a large company another event is about 200 participants also in the large companies my sphere in the large companies my sphere I don't want to get involved the problem is sorry I had another issue that I advised something like 10 minutes ago that was what you said we need to make we need some local organization and it's difficult to move our base around this organization as long as the organization is a U-based and it's the event is inside the European Union we could move around as well as I guess SPI could in the US I don't know about SPI but inside the European Union it works anyways so it might be a good idea if I look back to last time the European Union has two in other one perhaps a permanent local one one thing that I noticed regarding money and storage of money which is about I think it's one part of it but it's not the only one there's a huge difference between the Brazilian organization five years ago no, three years ago I decided to put chunk of money and invested that into I'm not sure, funds, blah and they get excellent interest rates and I'm not sure how far SPI for example have can we not get the money out? yes, you should have it regularly we for example pay all the background attendees so we have to answer the question yes SPI has a lot of funds how much? just just to make a comment just to make a comment that part that we have to money local is the central part but it's not the only main part of it I also want some more formalization of the whole debt confidence team and the working and more appreciation for the volunteers and stuff like that it's not only that we have one account for the money we can get it only it's important to have that I think, but it's not the only one Parabot? I don't want the name of the organization that Bruno made I think we need an organization not for the main part we may want to buy stuff like a translation equipment or a machine because this time Bruno used his personal machines and he lent us his printer stuff like that I believe it's more specific to ship my printer to Greece than to buy an Amazon printer and the printer is a cheap stuff but more specific stuff like servers or we have to have a good printer and he must have them for money confidence that only works if you would have the confidence that's relatively near to each other half of the world is much cheaper to buy or get a new machine from a sponsor it's too expensive to transport stuff and then to have it somewhere for the whole year until the next DEBCON starts I don't really understand this discussion I don't see a need for it because DEBCON to me is a DBN project DBN has a legal umbrella so we can just use this legal umbrella use the DBN money things which exist in different countries and are done with the sport I agree that maybe there was this discussion is DEBCON a DBN project or not and there are some fears if DEBCON is a DBN project then all people will complain and they will start flameless etc but I don't see there are other teams in DBN working the installer team the kernel team the release team and they can take decisions so there can be a DEBCON team which can take decisions like every other team is criticized but also every other team is responsible for their actions one difference that we had so far is that we didn't rely on the DPL to okay reimbursements of the huge amounts of people usually we only had the DPL okay the money that went out of SPI's account I'm sure about well it depends on how well they're competent so there have been lots of comments here and in the past about the the process of making decisions about who is getting sponsored was independent of how the actual logistics of providing the travel sponsors being handled actually the difference we included the DPL in the selection of the people who get sponsored very directly so the difference was more formal manner where the DPL didn't need to send this time to mail to anyone in order to release the money because the lead was more less I think in this case the governance involvement was more an SPI board than of a DPL and he wasn't like that because of the DPL you can also delegate say you can spend 100,000 something on sponsorship and then the sponsorship team can decide exactly the money DPL does not have to decide for every 20 euros spent I would like to say three points first because I see that currently well working through giving good improvement some points but just do it I'm not sure if we really need to change this life much two if you are talking about discussing who is a volunteer who is an organist what exactly do and what you are talking about I think it will lead to a huge moment of meta discussion we really don't need to do which when Trump is answered many of us their private lives, their jobs their positions to be here and every bit of research we have to get to that point but Trump is also from the DPL project and I don't think we need to do that I think we must not do that because that point is to support DPL but Trump is also for example in the end it's going to be organized by different people anyway yes but currently I don't need to discuss who is a volunteer when a volunteer starts to be mobilization I don't want to I don't want to discuss who is a volunteer or not but I don't want to discuss who is a volunteer or not I want like it is now everyone here who has just started working when stuff is a volunteer and it should be the same in the next years if we would have such a thing it should just be a way to be more involved even for those that only have a few hours left or a few hours before that that they get a bit more appreciation or whatever for it I don't want to discuss who is a volunteer do you see it over if you feel energy from Libyan sucked into that do you fear this if you get a Libyan project you can't get the status of a Libyan team or do you think this is a status quo and should be kept? Yes and yes I think we draw some resources from Libyan which could be used for example I haven't read events and suppressed aliases for two weeks just take a quick view if there was something important that Joey has reacted but would you have to anyways this is obviously such a thing yes I see us more so I'm not sure I understand what the underlying point is that you're trying to make I understand what the notion as a whole I'm not sure what you're trying to say I think if a donor said that considering an organization of what we already have would be overhead that would be so yet another thing would be overhead but only during that conflict so having already a predefined economical team or a predefined group of people that can't handle the money it's an overhead of having to pre-create every time we go to US to create that conflict I don't think it is an overhead when we have already defined a group of people that can't handle all the treasury those are SPI basically actually the central thing should be the first of all the liability thing if we had I want to tell a story about an Indian conference where IDG moved in to have a local conference where they convinced the sponsors of a free conference to not pay the conference organizers the promised money that they actually had spent already in order to bankrupt the free conference okay there was a free conference in India I'm not sure and IDG the little store expo company came to India and wanted to take over the market they regulated that with conferences like in our also in Brazil and they did that in Germany with there was a conflict there and they killed off some New York conference and they convinced the sponsors of another free conference of the free conference to not pay the promised money to even though they had promised that already and they had calculated with it and budgeted and only waited for it to come to them to speak this is a lack of from that I want to know that we must be very careful and conservative with the money that we spend in debt in order not to end up with a huge deficit because some sponsor at some point gets a headache or whatever and it doesn't pay yes we have the money in account before we spend it and we do this exactly the same way this year and yes the contracts are actually could be trusted and at the moment you would who would be reliable the local ones organizing we don't have a problem but if that would happen to us at the moment it would be Gunnar and Gaby's who would have the problem if not but ok now more way I just say I don't see how this is relating to the big question you have for this question this is the local liability you need a local organization in the country for that issue for the issue of liability the only way you are going to solve that is a local organization in each country and in most countries it's quite straightforward it may cost a small amount but you can set up a local limited company of some kind to have the liability and if it goes bankrupt then that's the company going bankrupt and nothing else and the bigger question I still don't see why we are trying to there are multiple issues here the issue about money from one year to another about banking regulations and so on there's also the question about the running of DEVCONF from one year to another on that question again I don't see why it is the right answer to set up a separate organization and I would like to say to whom this organization will be responsible because it seems like third to me if we have sponsors who give money to DEVCONF are trying to help DEVCONF and if this organization is separate from DEVCONF is it for HP for example would you rather report to some separate organization which that would be a question for the bylaws parties that you have stuff in your bylaws for a separate organization rather than having it as part of DEVCONF because DEVCONF is not only one by DEVCONF for example there are many people there are a lot of non DEVCONF developers involved in DEVCONF do you think that it is wrong for DEVCONF developers and the DPL to have control of them to me it seems obvious that they should have control of them we have said over and over and they think it has saved us from quite a few that DEVCONF is not an official DEVCONF project this for example avoided confrontation with DEVCONF no I think that we all know we are working we are doing this so that it can get better so we can all meet but DEVCONF is about making a distribution not about making a conference and if we make from DEVCONF either a DEVCONF project or a group like an organized non-profit company or whatever DEVCONF focused to specific tasks who should be also entitled to take part of the resources we have or whatever I really suggest not to change the way we have been working so far because with its good and its bad things it has worked I understand I still have a question on which message now fell it is so I had it from 10 minutes ago and that's about a few seconds it's quite convenient that you don't need to go to DEVCONF by the payment but that you can just pay the basic money that you want to that's appropriate to spend I have a question also because as a DEVCONF makes a permanent delegation you can spend some money that you got in for DEVCONF maybe that's not an SPI decision that's a DEVCONF decision the money is the money is the money is related to DEVCONF which I would press the efforts as I would say for DEVCONF DEVCONF is not an associated project with SPI so particularly for the DEVCONF heading as far as SPI is concerned if you delegate that to someone it's not something that SPI is going to overrule as far as DEVCONF money unless it's as far as our obligations and the project so it would be totally fine with SPI if I adopt the DPLK instead please reimburse with the authorization if I also delegate it once one point is about forming one kind of company or another in most countries does most persons behind the company completely free from all liability if there is any kind of this management or what's there so setting up a company even a limited company is no way to get out of all responsibility but it's more than you are now the second point is that I think even if you are a sub-project within DEVCONF you can be as distinct from making lists and so on as you wish just request private mailing lists for the team organ for the organization of the event itself communicate outside as much as you wish as is done currently that should be no problem I don't think you need an outside legal body for that reason okay, Tony Mars how does he talk to my mom? I think we've mixed the discussion because we don't have yet a certain if we meet as an organization and then we mix it I would be another organization new one or something in Europe do we need an organization or not? I think we have to determine this if we're going to I think yes, that's why I started there are different opinions here some believe that the level of the organization is not available I think it would be a good thing to probably have a few organizations around the world that can be used to redistribute the money I think we have now if I am correct we have now two times in a situation where money arrived late and it couldn't be distributed in the way it was originally done which means with the troubles of transferred monies that you end up with a large part of money in a country where you don't really want to have it so it would probably be better to make sure that the money ends up in places where you can distribute it to the people who are going to get it and if a large part of the money is going to travel processes of attendees it should probably go to a place near where they live so it can be distributed to them directly rather than hoping that it will be an organizational organization that's what we are trying to do actually, for example in Brazil we had now a pile of money and over the last few years we used that money to pay the South American actually only Brazil which was Brazil Brazil tries to be a very close money market directly within Brazil so that they can come at all and they have this extremely good fund that they are using and it's not really decreasing as fast as I see it so we will be forced to organize now that time in Brazil at some point really that's why we are making a lot more money that's what they want they can just keep you thinking to find that company they can just keep you thinking to find that company we try to work closer together with other bodies holding getting money worldwide unfortunately, no one actually responded to our request besides FBI and the legitimate but for something like that a more permanent committee within that union it's probably an organization that currently has could possibly help so I started to say earlier with respect to how money gets handled by organizations like SPI and SPI as analogs and other companies I don't think it matters to SPI whether the DEF CON organizing process is a delegated function of the NPL that's treated as being handled and some specific subset of the DEF funds held by SPI or whether DEF CON itself is an organization that belongs to another SPI organization handled the same way that the real issue is what is it we really are trying to accomplish what do we want that we don't currently have what doesn't work that might work differently I think it probably is the case that some degree of either official delegation or organization would help in these sorts of interactions with the other groups around the world who are holding various funds but I don't personally know how important that is in the global scheme of things I have intentionally personally stayed fairly far from that level of detail in this process we have been discussing in the last days during the times that we spent in the info room with Fabia, Iona, Ram and usually the other team that one of another is usually there so we keep talking about the problems that we have this year because it's my first time calling and I'm volunteering of the other team not the things that Fabian is taking over since 2005 and he has very good points that repeated this year so in one of our meetings he told a couple of things that will happen and it actually happened and he's making a good plan for a couple of things and as we discussed in this he's not here because he's not feeling well probably he would like to I think that he would like to point that but one of the things that he outlined is that if we have a two year line that comes to prepare for one year for another like the candidates for the next that comes to be two years ahead we have time enough to set if we need a local team like Brazil if we need a country that doesn't need we don't need to set up a local team for L.A.B. and all that stuff if we adopt this two year line almost all the problems that we are trying to work out here would be so because we have two years ahead to get things done and one of the things that this could be a best we need is that confirmation team but as we discussed this one of the questions that's over is like current team, like the I team like all the teams that come team and maybe I don't know if we need a detailed delegation for Andreas or well that's another point but that confirmation team that's people even if they have to split a little bit if they work with other NAO IS should take care of all the stuff that needs to be done the next year that comes and further decorations of the second year that comes and it looks like that Fabian has a good plan about that and as he explained to me is preparing a couple of notes and a lot of things I asked Andreas about the other teams going to discuss a couple of things that I would like to point at these points that I'm doing right now so I believe that maybe it should so prepare for our team to not add two years ahead the problem of getting the organization ready to receive the money so all the problems could work very well so it should a good outline I have another point I wanted to explain something so I a fixed part of receiving money could be that could be good every year now I have to send people like a mail or expect them how they prefer to get the money into the country where they will need it and at one point in Brazil for example we had problems receiving the money because of some form of formality errors in the invoice since then we were extremely careful to not send formally incorrect invoices so we learned from that but still it's a thought to tell people every year from scratch where to send money for that reason it would be nice to have only one place for all the time then I wanted to explain why SPI was why I tried to avoid SPI in the past like DEF CON 3 and 4 because it was it took about a year more than a year to reimburse the last person from much more than a year to reimburse the last person from DEF CON 3 and from DEF CON 4 the reimbursement process with SPI again lagged very much this year actually the SPI people got their money first ahead of everyone else and also last year it was mostly it's fixed anyone can call a member of SPI and help then can you call a member of SPI if you aren't pleased with it you're all able to join if you're a daddy developer well if you can join if you make a contribution to some kind of free software organization yes but that's not a topic here so the goal was at that point to have a fast unbrewed bureaucratic way of making actually this year even the ahead of time reimbursement the need that we need to call a hotel the 29,000 US dollars worked recently fast with unbrewed bureaucratic with involvement of several people on the SPI how bureaucratic I mean it was much better than when you described for brews here but you just feel at least 10 days 10 days before I would point out that it was actually at least partially on my advice that much debt off money is not through SPI's hands and past here to tell you about the vessel this is why if we think it makes sense to have a single place as a target for the incoming funds and for us that have control over the international funds from these processes I don't think it's a bad place we actually do use SPI heavily for IDM for senior for all the netcap for some from companies in the US could SPI have like the European subsidiary we have some similar in Germany for example SPI historically SPI to accept donations from people outside the US and then for a while outside the US and Canada now we actually can easily accept credit card donations online from most countries in the world this is a very new thing as far as as far as paying money to European debt developers for travel reimbursements with proper documentation we should be able to do that pretty easily once we sign up for the service I mentioned earlier it will be very valuable there was this argument that DBN is about making a distribution and not a conference and I think that true DBN is about making a distribution but this conference helps making the distribution so DBN should should make debt content and the second thing what I want I like Fabio's Fabio's idea about this planning two years in advance because it's easier to set up a local team I also had the idea of deciding about a backup place to decide another country where we go in case we learn that the local team doesn't work and this year we were close to saying Mexico was problematic because we didn't have a local team because we didn't have a local team because we didn't have a local team because we didn't have a local team I told her a local team against her will so this year we decide for a place full and then see in a half a year that the full doesn't have a local team that it should go to bar it is an independent conference also it happens and a lot of it's very important really if we will do something that I think we could copy from and AJ certainly understands how this works very well and that is what's called the GOSIS movement the GOSIS conference policy yes they have an explicit mechanism for having the organizers of the preceding year and key contributors to all of the previous years sit down with the team that's going to run it the next year and ensure that they understand all the things that need to be done all the planning needs to be happening that's something I believe that's a best practice worldwide that is such a good thing that we have to actually actually actually when I was starting I had some misconduct with them also I had some ideas I really need to get something out of money in Europe easily now I learned today that STI will be able to do it very soon so I think we have made a lot of orders and also I believe it would be that STI districts enough so I tend now a lot to say ok we are inclined to get somehow under STI's umbrella I also have a good focus on the Debian project but that's something else I am more to the outside of the organization of Debian and maybe some time how much of the Debian organization is documented and also what is the core team of Debian organization who doesn't consist of what are the roles that are in this there is a document that's for you I started a project on Adios about describing all of Debian I've never got a project I'm requesting and receiving Adios project but from then I also started to pull in more and more people in order to spread the knowledge as well as possible and I think that works reasonably well for example we have some people who are now involved deeply involved for more than two years these guys there are us, Igor, Mathieu and Luciano and Oliver has attended several Debian but he was not involved in the organization I started and Fabian Fabian helped last year to go on he was involved in Debian he is important for each year to be involved in the previous year the idea is to have the people, all the teams that want to have Debian in their country participate as deeply as possible in the organization of present you could have a lot of things like the process of signing off there were a lot of minor issues this year we have put this year lots of stuff into SDN we have big models here you were forgetting something that you did create this project which had all the outline for what had to be done by which state there was a lot of job nobody took much care to follow so the process or at least the idea of process that was crafted along around November, December something like that exists doesn't mean that it was implemented closely it should be interesting to the file and check how far did we go along those lines or what happened there now, what what I wanted to say was partly already addressed by Andres an important problem that we have had is the burnout I mean, it's very important for people to organize a set of yes to be involved from before it's very important not to lose experience by losing the organizers right now we don't have besides Andres anybody who was in the Oslo or I don't know if you were in the Brazil organization no, okay, we lost all of them yeah from the city people many of us stick around and at least I plan on sticking around I hope to still be involved for the next year the problem is that well, having a local group is not synonymous to having somebody, many people inside the team for example, something that's really encouraging is that over two years well, three years if we count Brazil we have had a large group of Argentinians and they are planning to do in two more years in Argentina so I think they have a very good experience there but what I mean, I counted on having local people getting interested and pulling them to work during the organization process in the end I realized that what we need is somebody who can follow the process and explain it to others and take the time to pull people because we also don't need too many locals involved in every step of the organization but for example two or one months before the conference when things start being not planning but implementing and not projecting but doing locals are really, really even either locals or a full tank person or boat or something like that so it's not only that we need the people involved we need the people with the ability to pull more people in we have fun but here from Jesus just mentioning what BDL and AJ said that one of the things that we can do is like separate part of the budget to take all the people that were involved in the organization and then take them to the place that has been decided to be the host city and then start taking like two months from now or one month from now go through everything that we suffered in the previous conferences and go through everything that has to be done and has to be budgeted and has to be deadline to start moving things on the host city so that the things can get into motion and nothing is forgotten and nothing is just put into there and never is none it would be too much money it would be very very important but it's covering maybe eight people over the world to see any group from there to Bricson from there to Bosnia from there to Greece one of the hot things decided it would be cool stop we have a time so if you want to discuss it we need to go outside because there is a next talk coming it's very small summarize of this that we should stay as far as possible with SPI and other debt related money things and talk with our DPL for maybe delegation and stuff but for now we need to finish here we have now meeting