 And I would say optimistically that this is maybe the death knell of the patriarchy, you know, it's like kind of the last panic, you know, the cornered vicious animal, you know, of male domination. Even before Trump was elected I came to realize that how we treat nature is often how we treat women. And that until we treat women with respect and dignity we can't treat nature with respect and dignity so there it's all connected and I would say I would put race in there as well and I think what's come out a lot for those of us in America who are paying attention is the connection between not just pay patriarchy but racism in agriculture in America and how we're still kind of operating on this kind of plantation slavery model, even though it's not a legal model. Maria Rodale is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine. Maria is an author, activist and detective in search of the mysteries of the universe. She is the author of the following books, Scratch Organic Manifesto, Betty's Book of Laundry Secrets, It's My Pleasure and Maria Rodale's Organic Gardening. From 1986 to 2017 she spent her career in the family publishing business Rodale Inc., which published the magazines Men's Health, Women's Health, Prevention, Organic Gardening, Runners World and Bicycling. Men's Health was published in 99 countries. Rodale Inc. also published such classic books as The South Beach Diet, Doctor's Book of Home Remedies, Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore, and Onward by Howard Stoltz. During her career she worked in many circulations leading the in-house advertising agency strategic planning and led the first brand integrated business books, magazines, digital and e-commerce for the organic living business. In 2009 Maria became CEO and chairman of the board leading the company through the great disruption and ultimately selling the company to Hearst Publishing in 2018. In 2016 she launched the children's book Imprint, Rodale Kids, which is now owned by Penguin Random House. She has also been involved as a board member and co-chair of the Rodale Institute, an independent scientific research and education nonprofit, which studies regenerative organic versus chemical agriculture. And by the way came out last year with Kiss the Ground, fabulous, wonderful project which highlights them in many ways. She was co-chair from 2007 to 2017 and still sits on the board. Her grandfather is considered the founder of the organic movement in America. From 2003 to 2011 she was on the board of Bette Middler's New York Restoration Project, and she also served on the Pennsylvania Federal Reserve Advisory Council from 2014 to 2017. She also served on the board of the multi-billion dollar nonprofit hospital, Leigh Valley Health Network, if I said that correct. Leigh High Valley Health Network. Leigh High Valley Health Network. She has received many awards for her lifetime of service and activism, including the National Audubon Rachel Carson Award in 2004. And as a matter of fact of Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring right here, which is an amazing honor. United Nations Population Funds Award for Health and Dignity of Women Everywhere in 2007, and the Audubon University International Quality of Life Award in 2014. In 2005 she graduated from Ulin-Barre College in Allentown, Pennsylvania with a dual major in communications and art, and in 2017 received an honorary doctorate degree from the Delaware Valley University. She resides in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and is the mother of three daughters and one son-in-law. She has one grandchild and one cat and 12 chickens. Maria, it is a sheer pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to visit with us today. Thank you. It's my pleasure. So I've got a numerous amount of books here, so obviously Rachel Carson Silent Spring, your organic manifesto, a wonderful book. Have you ever read the one from the Prince of Wales from harmony, the Prince of Wales, or heard about it? I have it. I've paged through it. I can't say I've read it cover to cover, but I've also heard him speak and I'm a great admirer of his work. I actually did want to ask that. So are your thought philosophies a little bit aligned because you do say you're this detective and you want to really discover the mysteries of the universe and believe or not harmony and also when he speaks. He really wants to show us and tie the mysteries of the universe to us, to connect us with a symbiotic earth. And so I figured a lot of your thoughts or maybe your discoveries were moving in the same direction. Well, like I said, I haven't, you know, read him deeply, but you know, we're both gardeners, he and I are both gardeners. And, you know, I think you have to be a little bit of a detective in search of the mystery of the universe to, you know, really be a passionate reader because everything is kind of interesting and mysterious. And I did have the pleasure of going to visit high growth, which is his personal garden and I would say he and I are very aligned in the desire to create kind of magical spaces. So, so I feel very connected with him, although I mean I've met him once but I'm not really. That's, that's beautiful. There are so many inspirations and things that I cross cutting things and your work over the years your activism, not only in gardening and farming and organics and now regenerative farming also the Rodale Institute and the wonderful other things they've done and are continuing to do. What what your biography and what all this is should be telling our listeners my listeners is basically, you've been doing this for a while you. God you haven't given up or at least I hope you haven't because this last 12 months at least has been trying time on on many different fronts and levels, not only with the pandemic and the lockdowns but you know black lives matters the the capital building incidents the inauguration all the things around that the black lives matters and you know Belarus and the bolts and arrows the Putin's the Shays the Duarte's and all the numerous other crazy things going on around the world has has all your past activism readings knowledge your discovery of the universe and how how it works, giving you any preparedness any resilience say I knew this craziness was going to come to the head I was a little bit prepared. How have you weathered this time. Well you just asked me about 100 questions so I'm fine I weathered it fine. I've got my 12 chickens so you know I have plenty of eggs. I, you know, like most people around the world was very disappointed when Trump got elected and concerned and worried and and that actually led me, you know, before Trump. I focused both on the organic environmental space and personally I'd also focus a lot on women's history and religious history. And that's like what the book it's my pleasure is is more about it's it's about, you know, trying to understand why there's this dynamic between women and men in our world. And, but what the election of Trump did was it sort and black lives matter and all of that is it made me dealt more deeply into, you know, race and cast and, you know, patriarchy and understanding, you know the dynamic of men and and. So it's been interesting and I would say, optimistically that this is maybe the death knell of the patriarchy, you know it's like 10 of the last panic you know the cornered vicious animal, you know, of male domination. And before Trump was elected I came to realize that how we treat nature is often how we treat women. And that until we treat women with respect and dignity we can't treat nature with respect and dignity so there, it's all connected and I would say I would put race in there as well and I think what's come out a lot for those of us in America who are you mentioned is the connection between not just pay patriarchy but racism in agriculture in America and how we're still kind of operating on this kind of plantation slavery model, even though it's not a legal model. So, you know, whether it's Mexican immigrant farmers, you know, migrant workers, or prison labor. We've got a lot of work to do so I've actually spent the last four years, working on a new book that's currently out for, because I don't own a publisher anymore so I have to like find a publisher. It's out for potential acquisition, which focuses on love, because I think that that's the thing that's missing in all of this is a real understanding of the power of love to address our issues and create resilience in a world. So that's that's real beautiful and so in that respect some some of that has prepared you but I think you weren't. I've definitely shown the microscope on on more of the problems more things bubble to the surface, but that's beautiful to hear what I always say that all well with the all 17 of the sustainable development goals are tied to agriculture and to see food food and beverages, but that the biggest way like Paul Hawkins forms that to draw down our human suffering problems and our environmental problems, especially our agriculture food problems is to empower women and girls and to flip that paradigm and just that switch on how that relationship is is intertwined and you you touch upon it. So, in your answering the question so I actually want to go into that now if you don't mind a little bit deeper because it's so important. The majority of workers in agriculture seafood food and beverage production, farming, etc. They're not big migrant workers but also women and girls and usually underpaid under educated not it's almost like you eloquently said it, a form of slavery, you know it's a important conditions and this empowerment and changing the switch of how we see that world and flip that is such a vital role to be one of the top besides global food reform to really draw down and be a silver bullet to bring some equilibrium or change into the entire system that we so desperately need. The Vice President Mila Harris is a step in the right direction, covering some bases but there's so much more needed how can you tell me what more are you working on that front besides being a fabulous advocate for women and girls but what else do we need to do and how can we flip that paradigm. You know, flipping the paradigm is the right phrase because I think we in the environmental food movement have been stuck in this paradigm that you know and I mean I, we published Al Gore's book. I know him well but it's like you know if you just stop drinking bottled water and plastic, you'll solve the problem it's like it's it's a personal thing that each person has to do like you know stop using plastic grocery bags and, and, you know, and then you know we've, we've spent more energy fighting amongst ourselves. I call it you know the vegans vegetarians versus the meat eaters you know, like, rather than actually like, trying to solve the problem. And you know the thing that you know like I realized as I was working on my book is that you know there's two ways to look at food one is you know what you eat the best. And the other way is like how it's grown. And the truth is how it's grown is so much more important to everybody than what you actually eat. Like, I tell the story, quite often of my you know my ex parents in law, who, you know both lived into their high ages and ate you know cookies at every meal and, you know, and, you know, didn't even know what organic was until they met me and, you know, they were happy and healthy and lived a long life. But, you know, what you eat is personal. And that to me is like personal liberty and freedom, you know we should all feel the right you know everything eats as Bill mollison says everything so we've got to eat. And you know some people want to eat vegan that's great some people want to eat meat that's great. But the how food is grown is a collective is a is a communal thing you know chemicals affect all of our health whether you eat that food or not. You know they poison the water, whether you eat that food or not. And, you know, they chemicals take the, you know, disabled the soil from storing carbon, which impacts all of us. So, I think, you know as a movement we need to shift our paradigm to thinking, you know, who cares what you're eating. Let's care about how we're growing. And let's care about, you know, the impact that how we grow things has on all of us. And as it relates to, you know, women and children and, you know, I think that's a deeper issue. Actually has more to do with sex than anything political it's how you know if you look around the world you know a lot of women and children are repressed and even in you know in Europe and in America repressed because of you know our views on sexuality and nature is sex basically nature is like one giant or G. We've got to get like comfortable with the idea of that and start freeing up, you know people, you know I think if men have healthier attitudes about sex they won't need to like control women as much. If women have more freedom about sex, they won't, you know, feel so like angry all the time so it's it's really that's where the reformation needs to happen which is, you know, I'm not sure who all is talking about that yet but that's to me where the future is. You kind of tickled in your book organic manifesto you tickled on sex as well and also when we talk. GMOs or even chemical fertilizers and and seeds and things on how they actually do a form of rape on the other seeds and you tickle on that in the book and a couple different ways as well and so I definitely think you're on to something I also think it's a little bit. It's a little bit more systemic so it's not just that one facet of misunderstanding of sex but I think there's a cold whole complex subs subsystem in there that that we're really missing and not not understanding on in a lot of different ways so there was this great thing from Kate real worth who is the economist the donut economy and she really set it so nicely and a couple different ways and I'd like to read it to you if you don't mind. She called it weird societies and she it's basically an acronym for Western educated industrialized rich and democratic weird societies. It is here that most of the economic research the thinking is conducted and thereby produces automatically a biased response. So we're getting a narrow view of that world picture, because as you and I know that the majority of the migrant food workers the food workers in the processes that are women and girls is the sure majority there. And, and then many other areas that that's not the same picture that we're seeing where all these studies and data and graphs come from it's much a different view of the world so I love. I love how you kind of express that and that in those situations, that is, is a big this male hierarchy and stuff is really creating numerous problems. Yeah I write about in my in my new book about how we do need a whole new economic system and and you know in the current capitalist economic economic system you know women are basically like domesticated animals. We, you know, we're for sale and we do work for free and you know, there's there's no freedom in it. And the same is true of nature, you know nature is not accounted for in capitalism, the guy who developed the original concept. I mean he basically he lived with his mother. It's, it was a whole system created by entitlement based on the backs of domesticated women. And, you know, I think one of the both tragedies but also like lessons of the pandemic is how much women are suffering, because we don't have the systems for childcare that you know are, you know a lot of women have had to leave the workforce because, you know, without childcare. And, and, or impossible. So, I do think that we're at a really interesting time and I'm challenging times but also interesting times and that we have, we were in a very unique moment as a glow, because this is happening all all over the world and you know Trump isn't an isolated incident you know it's happening everywhere that we have a moment to like reinvent and rethink and almost like redream the future that we want to create. And that to me is is our mission right now. Absolutely I'm totally in alignment with you and you there's a couple things that even, even in that that I would like to unpack and go a little bit deeper if you're willing to share. So, I deal a lot with, believe it or not, someone who is environmentalist and also trying hard to get global food reform and change our food systems. There's so many aspects that are cross cutting with economics, and there's so many, there's so many things that deal with being a futurist or someone who has this vision of what's the future where we're going. And if we continue on these current models we've been on. What are we going to take us what will that future look like and so some respects you have to do a lot of forecasting back casting and thinking about these the futures the different futures that are available for us. And in that there's this this interesting thing that with economics and the the weird societies obviously Western way thinking most economists are men. They're very selfish, they're very self centered it's me me me how much money. Yeah they're white. And the other thing is is there also some some interesting things there is that they're easily corruptible easily bought. Right. This is horrible. And so when I think of Mariana Matzikato or Kate Raworth or some of the other greats I like Jeffrey sacks I like W Edwards dimming as an economist that that move board and you and I both had cross cuttings with the Federal Reserve of the United States and some of the archaic type of thinking there so I'm so glad they had you in there as an activist and navigate just throw up things and make sure shit didn't go too wrong which know that there was a political divide but what I'm getting to is that there's there's definitely has to be a new system there's definitely got to be a new economic model and and you you touched upon that I was wondering if you could kind of tease us. What that looks like it and maybe if you let me share what I've also been thinking about that quite a bit I'd love to exchange and see if they're aligned in some way. And of course, I have to tell you a funny story about my Federal Reserve experience, please. When I first. It's a three year term, you know advisory term and I, you know I was asked to be on it because of my business background and you know at that time, I still owned the the first meeting. I showed up and it was one of those like dark wood panels giant conferences rooms and there was like a line of portraits along the wall of just all these men. And I actually took like a surreptitious picture because it was like it was so funny to me that you know here I was in this like hallowed hall of like white man manhood and I made too much of an impact but I will say by the time my three years was up. All those portraits were down and they were more like landscape photo painting so so I do think, you know, there's change happening, but it needs to happen. More radically, and I think, you know, looking at nature as the model always to me that's always, you know, like when you have a mystery. How does nature. So, for instance, you know, in the white male model it's like growth growth growth growth growth growth growth growth growth. Well, you know nature. There's cycles of growth. And, you know, there's time for growth, there's a time for, you know, dormancy and we see that happen in. In companies, you know, like the classic example is the railroad industry versus the automobile industry you know it's like things have their natural cycle. You can even see the pandemic now is like a sort of a form of like, okay, you know, let's rest. We need to rest and so being less fearful of those cycles and less desperate for growth at any cost is like the first step I think and being able to be like, okay, do do things do we make things better over time. And so you know I think I write about it in my book about, you know regenerative agriculture regenerative organic, because that corruption thing is happening all the time, you know, oh regenerative is the new buzzword so now the big companies are like we're regenerative it's like no you're sorry, I'm not sure. So, so, you know what regenerative organic agricultural does it it actually makes the environment better over time. And that should be the model for any economy, or economic model. Does it make everything for everyone better over time. And I do think, you know, coming back to you know you said men are more corruptible I mean I've heard stories and I don't have any like footnotes to document this but that you know when you give money to. It's not just a white man thing it's a man thing, you know when you give money to organizations in Africa if you give it to the men, they tend to you know by alcohol and gamble and by, you know, whatever. Men like you know but if you give it to the women it actually helps people, and I do think. I mean, it's not that like men are bad or terrible. I think a lot of it is how we've all been raised. And that can change but that's going to take a long time to change. So, so I think you know we just have to do the best we can to think long term about how do we make things better, you know, over time for everyone. But that takes a love and a caring that you can't force on anybody. That make you do that. Yeah, I think there are some real universal laws or universal principles and, and we're all homo sapiens and we're, we're all on the same planet Earth, you know, what when I, you know, I go back to this again when when you say you know this detective to find out the mysteries of the universe. Carl Sagan said it so wonderfully. We are a way for the cosmos and the universe to know itself and we, you know, we, his first wife, Lynn Margolis who's one of my favorite superstars with my horizon and and the symbiotic earth and everything she really came up with a symbiotic earth and that everything is interconnected and really said neo Darwinism is bullshit neoliberalism is bullshit, and that we don't figure out that we are part of this regenerative world that we need to interact as a symbiotic symbiosis with the rest of the species and organisms on our planet that were doomed and then you go back to Carl Sagan again he said, there's this emerging consciousness that the earth is seen as one organism and an organism divided amongst itself is doomed. And so you touch upon so many things there that that are just so beautiful and a direction where we need to go. I dive pretty deep and in these subjects as well, because it's one of my passions and I base it off of, you know, Herman dailies ecological economics and and you know the the global footprint the replicable hectare that we have that if we had 1.6 global hectares that was replicable, meaning we could produce enough water food shelter security for ourselves that we could live you know 90 100 you know well beyond into right old age with good regenerative stewardship over the land healthy soils and things like that. And how can we flip this capitalistic model or these GDP models into an economy that's made based more off of a global replicable hectare that is a universal and also an aviable right for all human beings that it's a planet and economy for everyone, not just the weird societies has that acronym that I read, you know, kind of described and, and, you know, I don't want to go in too much detail because it's really about the honor of having you here, but I think if we ingrain some of those practices they're much more. Work your economy model they're much more regenerative model that's long term, and it's not based on genders based on this homo symbiosis this new evolution of how how the mench evolves into something much different and better. Yeah. Well, I agree. And you know if you look up the definition of capitalism, it has scarcity, you know, in its definition. It's about you know, utilizing scarce resources to, you know, whatever make the most money. And I think that's what has to shift is that you know, actually we've got plenty of resources here, you know, there's so much abundance here. And even like dividing it into, you know, hectares or acres you know it's like what we have is is like an opportunity for so much creativity and innovation and there's so much land that is underutilized or misutilized that could be, you know, made so much more abundant for everyone and when I say everyone man women, you know men women, bees, animals, you know, plants and fun guy, and Darwin. I think Darwin, one of the things like I came to in the process of doing researching and writing this book is like, we can't look backwards anymore. I mean, or like, we shouldn't waste our time trying to like, you know, discredit the past because everybody was doing something important and building a staircase, you know, to the future. And, you know, Darwin actually like to me, his most important idea was that adaptation is really the key to evolution. And so I believe we are constantly evolving and bringing it even back to American politics like, and circular, you know, circularness, you know, we're very much in this moment, repeating what happened in the mid 80s, you know, with Reagan and you know, and you know, the moral majority and, and, you know, AIDS was the pandemic of the time I mean there's a lot of similarities but if you actually go back and look at you know I just watched the documentary on the Reagan's and and I was working in Washington during that time period so there's so many similarities, but we have evolved so much further. Back then, nobody would come out as being gay. Now it's like, everybody can come out as being gay. You know, the, the media has involved has evolved, you know, the, our, our language has evolved black people, you know, the black lives matter is so important, but like, that would never have even come close to touching the surface. So, so we're making progress, and we just have to keep, keep our eyes forward and learn from the past, but use our energy to create solutions and make it fun for people I think that's a lot of the resistance is fear people are afraid you know, oh you know what do you, how do you get your home if you don't have coal, you know, well let's, let's find ways that are exciting to people. And I think that's why Elon Musk is so, so successful because he makes it fun and exciting. Yeah, he's, he's basically taking that diffusion of innovation curve and made it more fun more sexy more affordable and, and it just keeps approving and mean during the pandemic some amazing time after time what he's just continued to reach milestones and advance and he's moving forward to reach that future instead of complaining grown and grown and about the past. So I'm totally in line with the be the last thing I want to touch in that we'll kind of move forward to some, some other discussions and topics as you're I think with friends or you've at least interviewed him a few times john macky from Whole Foods and, and he kind of tickles or touches often on this capitalism thing, conscious capitalism. And as a matter of fact I have conscious leadership as this new book that he just came out with and, and not to pitch you against any friends or contacts that you have. I mean, how, how, how, you know, and I matter of fact I have another book here, the green swans by john Ellington Elkington, and right at the bottom there his subtitle is the coming boom in regenerative capitalism. Right. And so, Yeah, green swans are we bastardizing the regenerative word to put a new shiny coat on capitalism or is there such thing as regenerative capitalism conscious capitalism. How is that of all me or do we do we truly need to separate ourselves from that and get into a different economic model one that works for everyone. Yeah. Um, so I'm not friends with John. Okay, I did interview him for organic manifesto. I, you know, very much respect what he's done for, you know, for the food world with Whole Foods, I mean, we only actually just got a whole foods in my area like three years ago so shows what kind of back backwater place I live. I admire him as a business person and I did actually I spoke at the conscious capitalism. Conference the things that they used to have in person. You're dating yourself that seems so long ago. It was like, I think it was maybe five years ago. So, you know, I've seen that community up close. And and I would say, you know, good for them for doing what they're doing. It's still very ego driven and male kind of domination driven, and that's fine that's great, you know, we need that I think I don't think it should be one or the other. It should be a partnership. You know, there are things that men do really well. And there's things that women do really well. And I think all of us are kind of on a gender spectrum, you know, and we need each other, we need each other. You know, how does that tie back to John Mackey? Well, you know, he's like a crazy vegan, you know, and a libertarian and like I think, like I probably wouldn't be friends with him because we're like, we wouldn't know what to eat, you know, but but like I said, I really admire and respect what he's done. And I think, I think it's not like one day capitalism will stop and something that will start just like, you know, evolution, you know, something doesn't break out of an egg and it's something completely different. Well, maybe sometimes that does but I think it'll happen in bits and pieces and there's companies you know like Argonia is always a great, a great company, you know, Dr. Bronners, you know, some of the organic valley that are really trying to shift the model and and doing well at it. There's also a group that I've been keeping an eye on that I have a lot of respect for. I think they're in Virginia, Sylvan aqua farms, that's kind of a collective of indigenous and people of color, trying to really create a whole new model of how, how farming can work out you know how, how marketing and, you know, thriving can happen. Without without falling into the bad traps that have happened in the past. So, so I think it's going to you know just like anything you know somebody will have a good idea and other people will follow it and you know, somebody else will have a different idea and other people will follow that and over time, we will get better. I think really somebody will put some some some white person man will put a word on it and be considered the founder. I hope that you put a word on it and you're the founder because that's more the direction. I really think that we kind of need to spin the plate of this economic model and keep it up afloat until we make the transition to some extent to to something better but I do believe that that the, I mean human evolution takes millions to billions of years but cultural evolution of human beings as one that can go pretty fast if we do it right and do it in a transitional way. I personally I am very biased I believe that they did the world. The goal the plan for the future is the sustainable development goals. It has all the factors in it all the facets of very complex system to get us to not the best but a little bit brighter 2030 December 2030. And for me that's a lot of hope because of as I look around there whether it's donut economics the, the new green deal and the EU, whatever things emerging out there, I just don't have the big hope that they're not one, not unbiased, that they're also not from this weird society from the Western world that they really are something for everyone that we can make that just a nice transition, not leaving anyone behind because through food we realize that the ones that are in poverty and are hungry. It affects all of us it affects all of our economies and all of our lives because we're all on the same boat. So, I'm discussing your book, organic manifesto, all the bullshit and craziness that buyer and Monsanto have done the rape the pillage that the horrific things and thank you so much there is. It's so needed it's a wake up call people are. I hope and that's kind of what I want to ask you with this next question is as have gotten awoken to the realization that it's that it's a bad system that hasn't worked for us it's really a go nowhere model that's hurting all sorts of things. But I'm getting ready to have on my show here in a couple weeks. Carrie Gillam I don't know if you're familiar with her she's an investigative journalist reporter. She's written a couple books but she just released the Monsanto papers. As a matter of fact I think it comes at the official release date as March, but I got a pre copy. And I believe with all your past experience you know how that went. You pee I'm so glad it went that way, you know, an organization paying out billions of dollars. So when receiving cancer and many thousands and hundreds of thousands of people affected negatively through these chemical fertilizers and pesticides. What, not only from the activism maybe did you receive from what you wrote in your book, Brett's and problems or people, you know, mad at you and you actually went spoke with the farmers. And then, through all this years since the books came out and your work. Have you seen that we're starting to make a shift we're waking up we're pulling our head out of our ass and moving in the right direction for the least regenerative organic or even just organic into another direction. Again, that's a very big question. There was a moment when I was writing organic manifesto when I had to ask myself, am I willing to die for this, because there was so much negativity out there and viciousness. And, you know, like I'm a mom I've got kids and I think I was even pregnant when I was writing it. And I just said, I don't want to die, but I have to tell the truth. But I've since see learned, you know, because I wrote organic manifesto, like 10 years ago. Yeah, longer 2009 was that what Monsanto and bear have done has been replicated. And it was a replication of, you know, it's the tobacco industry, it's the sugar industry, it's the meat industry, it's, you know, it's the model that has been, you know, a bunch of people want to get really rich. They're willing to do whatever it takes and harm as many as people and many people as possible to do it. Scientists are complicit because they're bought for sale, you know, through university research. And, you know, the media is like, not educated enough to like, really understand it, what's happening so they're like they're kind of they get swept along into it, you know, and, and I mean I write a lot about this in my new book about how advertising is part of it too because you know advertisers want the sexy new thing and, and, you know, I'm a formal former magazine publisher and the new, you know, open brand will save your life or, you know, if you cut out all that, you know, because that's what sells things, you know, to people so it's this like whole ecosystem that left right, you know, everybody's complicit in. So how do you, and then I think what that's actually what has led to this moment in time, where there's complete lack of trust in pharmaceutical companies complete lack of trust in government complete lack of trust in, in the media. You know, because, yes, we've all been like sucking money out of people to get rich. And so, you know, of course, Q and on and, and, you know, they're just they're just playing the same game, you know how can we take advantage of this fear that people have and suck our money out of it or get our agenda across so. So, so you know the first step like being an alcoholic first step is to be aware that we have a problem. You know, it's all of us. It's not just, you know, it's not just Monsanto and bear, you know, it's, it's all of us because we're all partaking in it. And then, you know, and then like saying, Okay, stop, you know, stop. How are we going to change this and what's interesting to me, I, you know, I'm very active on on Facebook and I have this weird community of friends I went to high school with public high school. Who are Trump supporters, and I've like purposefully not you know like block them because I want to understand them. And then you know all the foodie organic people and you know the one thing they have in common is is organic food. And for the public school people it's because they all had health problems. You know and organic food was the only thing that kind of made them, you know, feel healthier. And yet in politics we haven't realized that that is a uniter a potential uniter. I'm also active on Twitter and I don't know if you follow David Hogg who is one of the Parkland shooting survivors, and he's been in this fight with my pillow guy and now he's launching a, you know, like a democratic progressive pillow. But I had a taste of this, you know, social, you know, I said something like please make it organic. And all of a sudden, you know, these like trolling haters came out for the first time in a long time, you know, I saw. Oh yeah, I remember you guys but if you click on them, you know they have two followers. And I think there are, there is like a whole industry out there. That's just the bullying industry. And we have to just say, you know what, I don't care about you. It's not only about it in your book, it's not only like the smoke tobacco industry but it's also like the chemical industry how they have this counter, not only the lobbyists but they have these counter people who come and they just lie to your face and say whatever you just credit you. You know there was a book that ties into this it's brand new to it just barely came out climate wars from Michael man man the new climate war from Michael man. And he says the same thing as you did in your book a little bit more it's not about the individual it's about these big organizations that are really leading these campaigns, campaigns against it and, and, you know, they always get the activists or the users of those products or our belief systems to fight against each other. And then they've got the whole whole thing tied up in one because we can't even unify against ourselves and respect they're just trying to sway, their direction, but I would say part of why I'm writing this book on love is that I think the model of war using you know, like, I'm fighting cancer, the war against cancer war against drug the war against the climate war, you know, boom boom boom it's like, like war just creates more pain and suffering. What we need is healing. And what we need is love because healing happens when love is applied. That's it. You know, and even like when you know when, when I'm, you know, having conversations with my Trump supporting Facebook friends you know it's like love is the only thing that works. And you never change them, you know, we can't change them. But we can like respect the differences and agree on what we can agree on. And those of us who believe in a future of love can move forward with love. Instead of getting like tied into this like it's a fake war. Oh, it definitely is. I, I asked people the question I'm going to ask you as well. What does a world that works for everyone look like to you. And I'm going to have you answered in just a second but I want to caveat it, I asked that to thousands of people all my guests but I've done studies and videos of people as well. And one answer is all different, but we really need a world that does work for all of us and whether it's it's love or, you know, once we start getting into religion or democratics and republics and dividing ourselves. Well, that's never been a world that works for everyone. There's only works for the weird societies or a select few but it doesn't work for everyone. Well, if we haven't realized that we need a world that works for everyone because that's the only way we're going to continue because there is no place on this earth to hide I'm in Germany I'm in Hamburg Germany, and you and I were discussing all the crap about the Trump apocalypse and the inauguration and all these, these things on on the craziness. And I'm should be distance from that but I'm not, because the decisions made there affect me in Germany, and the decisions that the Bolsonaro's make in Brazil to let the Amazon rainforest burn affects me in Hamburg and affects you and the United States and all over and, and we need to come to that paradigm shift that realization. You know, we're all connected with this homo symbiosis but now I'd love to get your answer on that as what does a world that works for everyone look like for you. Well, I think it starts with how we raise and educate our children. You know, and serve. I think so much of the problems in the world start with trauma childhood trauma, you know whether it's sexual trauma, physical trauma war trauma so so we want to create like a world where children feel safe children feel loved, you know, mothers and mothers feel empowered to love those children and aren't like, you know, desperate to, to, you know, escape or, or, you know that they feel fulfilled in that relationship with each other, or feel free to leave it in a way, you know that. I think freedom is really important and that's, you know, freedom of religion, freedom of, you know, beliefs. But that starts with raising confident educated children of both genders. And I think you know when you when women are free. They don't have to live their dreams through their children. And that makes everybody happier. And then, you know, like, then it's a creative fun solution, you know, like, oh, you know, how can we grow more food. Oh, but there's a place you know and we've got roofs and we've got, you know, or how can we get around it's like oh let's invent some new, you know, selling ships, you know, or, you know, how can we organize ourselves. Well, let's sit down and talk about it and figure it out and not, you know, and now freedom I think it should be I think people should be free to get rich. I mean, you're never going to like stop that impulse from people. So, you know, I'm not a communist or even a socialist the way, you know, I think there should be the freedom for people who want to make money to make money. But then there should be a culture, whether it's governmental or or social of like taking care of people, taking care of everyone. But I think that's only going to happen through how we raise our children and through education and, and, and that is going to happen through love. So, how do you consider yourself to be a global citizen and how would you feel about a world with the removal of all borders walls divisions limitation of humanity one from another and what is kind of your view and your understanding of this. We need boundaries. We need personal boundaries, and we need, you know, land, you know I think there's probably some evolutionary science that's been done, or that needs to be done about you know like sizes of communities and what's sustainable and how to manage it and, and you know if you are all free and everything you know that's, you know, you can't just erase and ignore people's culture and people's ancestry and, and, you know, I'm from Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania is right next to New Jersey, which is right next to New York City and we're all very different. And that's okay. Even within Pennsylvania that we're, we're all different. And, you know, I'm part German and part Jewish and part, you know, who knows what else, you know, but I think saying something like oh let's erase all borders scares people and isn't really necessary. It's just like, you know, saying oh all families should live together it's like, no, you know people need their space. I tried that last summer it was great it was great but you know we all are happy to be on our own again. And, but I think what's interesting the most interesting thing is how social media is actually erasing borders and barriers and, and, and like I think Black Lives Matter was happened because people taking videos of black people getting killed by police was like, Oh, my God, you know, you could have told me about that and I might have believed you but I see it. I, you know, I watched the Capitol raid happening live. And I was like, where are the police. What, what, why are there no police, you know I've seen the riot groups for the Black Lives Matter people, and they're not here. There's nothing going on here and I think that that's what cracked open the whole conversation for America was everybody saw it, you know who was paying attention that the police were in on this. And at least some of the police were in on it. And so I think we just have to be realistic but also hopeful and constructive. It's more interesting the way you formulate that and there's so many it's so complex it's complexity science. What we're dealing with and it's different in the United States obviously than it is in and Europe, especially even in Germany. The reason I ask you that question. I thank you for your views is that the pandemic was a global citizen. It didn't have any borders or nations or divisions. The air we breathe the water we drink didn't have any borders the species didn't have any borders. And the thing that you and I are passionate about food did not have any borders it was a global citizen all of those things were global and we're breathing the same air that Gandhi used to breathe that you know Julius Caesar or Marcus Aurelius or Aristotle Socrates used to used to breathe and and the same that your grandfather and my grandfather used to breathe. We're breathing the same water it's all regurgitated in a reprocess and a regenerative process here on our earth and so I definitely do not ever want to caveat that way of thinking with the removal of our indigenous cultures are heritage are just in grain culture even if we're from a very short generational family where there is not a lot of history or culture involved that that was passed on. But more in the bigger aspect of the way the world works that the Sahara deserts and the Sub-Saharan sandstorms that travel clear across to the Amazons to seed the clouds and seed the ground as fertilizer in the Amazons and then the huge cloud rivers that then take that and hit the Andes and drop into our oceans to with diatoms to feed our oceans and such as the cycle of life and at the much bigger cosmic perspective of the world and and I have even had a guest on our show Dr. And he is big on geospatial data and maps satellite data and these different maps and the World Trade Organization and global trade has a different map than the map that you and I are used to of the world. If we look at the logistics and the supply chain and the trade of our world. It is a global citizen has been for years and they've got it figured out. And so sometimes especially where we're in this lockdown. It's really easy when we see these borders walls the divisions and your lockdown that we're thinking. What's going on. What's our world come to and what are we facing and why are why are we now being cooped up in our human zoos and and some you know not all of us are fortunate like you and I to be in these beautiful human zoos that that you can say wow okay it's fabulous. Some of us are trapped in pretty tight spaces and we're like this human zoo was not made for 24 seven and I'm going to strangle somebody, you know, because that's just how it goes because we're not always made to be lived in these and we didn't design them to live 24 seven in them. Most of us are a lot a lot of people. And so these things bubble to the surface and I really wanted to kind of get your feelings and thoughts on that and that's kind of the backstory of how how that works and I would go back to looking at how you know nature again you know because nature has, you know, yes everything is connected, and I completely believe everything but there's also like ecosystems. So, you know, a pond is one ecosystem, and then it's nested in the forest ecosystem that it's a part of and that's nested in, you know, maybe the region and, you know, so you have all these different levels and you know at the top are you the, you know, the atmospheric ecosystem and then you have the planet as an ecosystem but that's nested within, you know, the solar system and the galaxies and, you know, the universe so so I think there's a kind of a natural desire to be both part of some a smaller ecosystem but also connected to the bigger ecosystem. And if we can like just stop trying to be like, you know, we can shift out of the war mentality, and be to to the like shift collaborative mentality, then it's fun to work together, and we can solve everybody's problems, and nobody has to be better than anybody else because everybody's just different. And it's okay to be different. And really, we're, we're when you with Rodale Institute and with what your work is done with regenerative organic regenerative to me is like fixing the microcosmos the micro organisms in our soil fixing how we do agriculture is very diverse but it's also the smaller ecosystems that self sustaining themselves and kind of spread that can you tell us a little bit more your thoughts philosophies and ideas how you've seen this movement evolve and and maybe get us up to speed but also give us your visions of where where we're going with this what you're seeing maybe with kiss the ground maybe with, I don't know how aligned you are with Dr Zach Bush and some of these biome and these integrated systems that would be great. Yeah. Well, you know let's go back to the original farming systems trial research that the Red Island Institute did, which started in the early 1980s because back then, you know the media and scientists were saying well there's no research that organic is better. So, you know, and no university would touch it so you know my father said okay I'm going to start a scientific study and he's hired a PhD scientist to say you know, I don't want I don't want I don't. This is just my donation I don't you know want any false outcomes I want to just see what happens and was originally called the transition study to see how long would it take to transition to organic and what happens over that time. So in five years, they found that. You know, there's a dip at first going to organic that that. You know the soil is kind of like and you have to rebuild it up with with, you know, manure and cover crops and everything. So after five years what we found was that organic was actually just as productive and just as profitable, and it required less outside inputs, and it actually was more resilient in droughts and floods because the soil was healthier. So, okay five years is done it's like, well let's just keep going with this and see what happens. And so it wasn't until the 90s you know after my father passed away that we started looking at the soil, we meaning they scientists on staff started looking at the soil and going, wait a minute, there's something different here. There's so much more micro organism is you know the fungi the bacteria the microorganisms. And then we started studying looking at the carbon. And it's like wow, you know, the carbon here this organic soil is much higher than the chemical soil. And over time, we're still seeing the higher profitability higher product productivity, and my father when he was alive came up with the idea of regenerative he's like we want to make the soil better want to make the land better. And he tied it to human health and that like, you know if you cut yourself, your body naturally tries to heal, you know, that's regeneration. So, so you know the climate science and connection with soil and carbon came out of that study as well and you know the microbiome in our guts wasn't even really discovered, or until around the same time. What happens is we as tools developed, and as our intellect develops, we start to see things that we couldn't see before. Okay, so now we see it. Now what do we do about it, and what other research do we need to do so one of the things I'm most excited about now at the thing that we do is we've switched to, I mean we're still doing the farming systems trial, which is great. But we're doing a vegetable systems trial. So we're looking at vegetables and what we're finding because we started with organic soil, and now we're doing chemicals. We're starting to see the nutrient nutrient. We're starting to see the decline instead of the rise, we're seeing the decline. So we can kind of like prove basically that regenerative organic is not just better for the environment but better for health and better for farmers. However, still have a lot of resistance of farmers to shifting to organic or regenerative organic and a lot of that has to do with their mindset, how they were raised they don't want to be. They don't want to feel like they live their whole life doing the wrong thing. Their bankers don't want to take the risk because it's a financial investment is as one farmer said, you know I had to go back and ask for money to put back in all the fences and trees that they'd given me money to take out before, you know so that he could use his tractor so the real I think the science is there. The real challenge going forward is how do we shift people's behavior, farmers behavior and government behavior to stop subsidizing chemical ag, you know, stop subsidizing chemical companies or and oil companies which are connected. So, I think we're at a really great moment actually in that, you know the fact that regenerative, the word regeneration is bubbling up so much. And my father, you know, I remember him telling me in the car one day is like you know I think, I think you know the regenerative idea is like the most important thing I've ever come up with. And then he died, and then, like, nobody said the word regenerative for like 25 years. And then now it's like kind of rising up it's like, you know he planted the seed and it took a while to sprout, but now it's sprouting and I think that's, that's the road forward for healing for all of us. It definitely is. And it's also, at least for the next decade of not for the next century regenerative is the big topic like it showed you in the book green swans regenerative capitalism but the United Nations is set forth. Last year actually that this will be the next decade of regenerative not only regenerative ag regenerative economies, regenerative capitalism and on and on because there's regenerative societies regenerative cities and it's, I don't want to negate or have it lose its value as we now put these buzz terms on it, because what I'm struggling with is that how do we explain regenerative to all those people they're like okay, we're just talking about sustainability and then we went and talked about resilience and then we're talking about corporate social responsibility and then we're talking about environmental social and they're like oh shit what's the new okay the new word is regenerate and and they're getting it's getting lost in translation or they're trying okay we've got to squeeze in how are we regenerative. Well it's not a model that you wait until the end of the year after you've done all your work and stuff and say how can we squeeze word regenerative in front of everything that we did last year. That's how it works it's a different way of understanding and that's kind of in our discussion today we've touched on it we've kind of gotten a little bit deeper on on what it means or worse going and that as well. That that's all interconnected that it's the seasons of life it's this biodiversity and this whole ecosystem that's different that's that restores and regenerates itself over time. Well I think I think you know first of all, I do want to say that that whole holistic part of regeneration was there from the beginning, and in fact, my first job title when I worked for my father. After college I went and worked in Washington and he was like you have to come back and work for me. And he together we came up with the title but it was more him giving it to me of coordinator of regenerative spirituality and psychology. Because at that time he was looking at. He was working on, you know, community building, because you know chemical farming had destroyed communities. You know how can we regenerate regenerate towns, how can we regenerate people's health. So it was, you know, again that nesting it was always a very holistic complete philosophy. I stayed in that job for like a year and a half because nobody took me seriously in the business so I had to like get like a real job in the business, but, but that was my personal passion from the beginning and so I think. And, you know, in organic manifesto I write about the word sustainable and how that was kind of like a compromise fail word from the beginning, you know, so I don't have any sadness about seeing that. But you know I think that the simple thing about regeneration is it just it makes things better. Does, you know, does it make things better, like for everyone. That's the question. Does it make my body better. Does it make the earth better. Does it make my community better. Does it make the soil better. Yeah, no it's a it's a system that can go on for infinity it's a it's a closed loop. Infinite model that is like the seasons of life and you know eventually the bigger universe or the bigger planetary scale that after billions of years if we. If we keep going on the Anthropocene will end up but actually it's a model that's really can be pushed out into the future and infinitely if we do it right and we understand our close connectedness to to that entire system. Three or big last questions for you because we're we're already getting into it I could speak ours with you with you about this because I'm, I just know you're the expert and and you've been doing this a long time I'm actually have to confess I'm a huge fan and I'm a fan of everything that you that you've touched or you've done and so I'm excited to be able to have this time, but I want to ask you the hardest question and that is the burning question. And that we've all been asking ourselves, let this last 12 months and it's WTF the burning question, but it's not the swear word that we have also been asking and pulling out our hair. What's the futures. What's the futures for us, or from your perspective, not for governments not from politicians not from Pennsylvania, from Maria Rodeo for me personally. Well I'd like to find an island that's in the Caribbean and grow some fruit trees. But, you know for me personally it's just, it's love nature. Serving my purpose exploring. I've made a lot of progress in solving things mysteries that have confounded me but I don't think, you know, I've solved all of them and then you know turning that into action, you know what can I do to have an impact, and what can I do to leave it better that's really the question. You know, that's beautiful. You know because I'm like, you know I'm getting older so time is finite. You're not that old that you've got one grandchild I've got four grandchildren, I've got four adult children. And I'm probably pushing great grandpa fairly soon if they're still in this exponential trajectory that my kids are. That's, that's a, that's a good thing. It's kind of like, you know, the, what I hear out as the golden, the golden rule you know treat people and plan it how you'd like to be treated and leave the planet as a better place than we found it and, and I see that in your writings, but there's also that big aspect of this activism that you're calling people's bullshit that you're telling them the real deal you're trying to get the truth out there because there, there are a lot of things that we're dealing with, just to touch on one one thing you know you published Al Gore's book, and for years I was really struggling to get him to talk about food at all, and he just would not talk about food and now he's finally jumped on and said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry and hallelujah but he just had this problem, but, but also he had some skeletons in his closet you know a tobacco farmer family, Angus B farmer, and then whatever, which I don't think was a problem. We've all made mistakes, we've all fucked up, you know, there is a way to pull out there is a way to, to fix those problems, but there are some, some issues there and I, I am trying to tie this in with what you experienced at the publishing because as you mentioned that you also had to deal with what ads are we going to run what kind of marketing you know and what brands or products we're going to push and things and some of those were and still are absolute shit, in our world, not definitely not organic. So, how do you deal with that how do you, how do you live in both those worlds or how do you make a work for yourself without giving up your hands and you know, given up. Well actually, you know, it was getting increasingly hard for me when I owned the company to live in both worlds because you know organic was never a moneymaker for us we always lost money on the organic stuff. It was an investment. You know, it was like celebrity weight loss. I just didn't believe in it and but that was what sold, and that's what made the money. And you know when we sold the company it was not because, you know, I said let's sell it's like the next generation of kids saying you know we don't want to own this business. And once I like it was like you know what, once I put my ego aside and said, it's not important for me to succeed at this in order to be happy and successful. It was the most freeing thing of my life to sort of walk away from that. And not have to be a part of that like, you know, and I'm putting like, you know the health food movement. You know, it's all, it's not bad it's just all people just trying to like, you know, hustle and and and it's, you know, I believe in health food. But, you know, you see the underbelly of things. And so, for me it's been incredibly freeing to not own that stuff anymore. But what I saw from owning it. I saw two things, because you know what, by the time we sold we had a lot of internet data, we had 100 million, you know, people using our websites all the time. That what people really are like angsty about is sex. And where change really has potential to happen is with children. And so that's why I launched Rodale kids and I actually simultaneously so you asked what's the future for me. I launched, I published some books under a pseudonym some children's books under a pseudonym that have turned out to be doing really, really well. And so I'm hoping in my future, I'm able to write more children's books I don't control, you know, the publishing of them anymore so but they have actually come back and I've done more and they're coming back again and I'll do more. And it's the stories that we tell that really have the biggest impact, and not just the stories that we tell to our children but the stories that we tell to each other as adults about, you know, love and relationships and, and, and that's where the change is really going to happen. I've already added you to the website menu be as a contributor and I'm looking forward to a contribution from you for the book, menu be people and planet food saving solutions. I could think of no better voice to represent women and girls and this big, big movement and so I'm excited for that, but I only have three questions left for you and then we're done and it's really their selfish takeaways for my listeners to give them back to them. And if there was one message that you could depart to them as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change my listeners life what would it be your message. Stop fighting and start asking yourself. What would love do. How. What should I do if I do it from love. It's a simple question but it's like, it's hard. What should the next generation or new youth in your field, whether it's guarding farming publishing activism be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real true lasting impact. Question everything. And don't be afraid to come up with new ways of doing things and don't be afraid of offending older people, because we deserve to be offended. The last one is really, I believe most people answer this way some some don't but what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. Most people say always the journey I needed the journey to learn. But is there anything that you said, damn I wish I would have learned that from the start I would have done a little bit different. The first thing I've learned that has the most regrets tied around it is like, I wish I would have had more confidence in myself and believed in myself in my gut, you know, the microbiome in my gut was talking to my brain, and I let my brain go but you know, really. And every time I went along with things where I didn't listen to my gut, or believe in my own self and you know that is like I was a woman. And not a lot of women were in business and you know all the whole like, I would say something and people, you know men wouldn't just wouldn't hear it even you know it's like, just went under their radar. But I wish I would have had more confidence to say, listen to me, you know, listen to me damn it. I know what I'm talking about. And instead you know you let it play out. And then it's like I was right. I was right. They should have listened to me. Well, you are right and you've done you've had an exemplary life so far and so much more to do. I'm really happy to already working on the next generation so I really appreciate you being on the show. Maria, it's been a sure pleasure and we're going to have to do it again for maybe for menu B will come back on or a follow up and next year with you and see what you're up to and get a catch up and especially when I'm traveling again when we're out of this lockdown I'm going to come come by Pennsylvania. People don't know this I spent some time in Pennsylvania but in Pennsylvania they have unique on Amish and Mennonite names for their towns and their cities. And you have to go through or play to get to intercourse or if you're gone in the wrong direction, you do a vice versa, but there's some unique places where you live beautiful farm country and beautiful country in general so I definitely would love to swing by and tell you hello and drop you off some copies of menu B. Thanks so much. Thank you it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much Maria take care. Bye bye.