 Initially, Rafael invited me and asked me to talk about what's going on in Russia and how planning is organized in Russia. So in the end we think it's going to be also a discussion, not always a translation. So sometimes Rafael will say things from his own. He'll just translate to me. But now, okay, it was said that I'm going to present one of the projects we did as MLA class in Russia recently, but I want to give a bit of overview of what the Russian city is and what the Russian cities are about. So just so you understand what kind of challenges we have, what are we facing. So we're going to talk about the project that we're going to talk about in the gray belt, which is the one that we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about the project that we're going to talk about in the gray belt. Okay, so Russia is a big country, as Brazil you could say. We have a little bit less inhabitants. Russia now has 140 million inhabitants. So we have a lot of cities and we have a lot of big cities. Not just Moscow and St. Petersburg, but also all the cities you can see here are one million and more people. So there's a lot to do for an urban climate. Okay, that's fine. That's good. So the interesting thing about Russian cities is that they're all more or less the same. They have the same layers and they're structured in the same way. So if you go one city you can work and the other is more or less. So each Russian city has a historical core and that's usually a grid city. Like Rio, where you have a grid structure that has been filled in over time. So the grid city basically started in the 18th century. This is the map of St. Petersburg from 1776. That's where the classical planning in Russia started. And after that the Russian tsar and tsarist said that every city in Russia should be planned just as good as St. Petersburg. Every city should get a classical power. So basically each city center became a grid structure. You could say different years, different master plans. These are the first master plans that ever were done for the Russians. And they also had the typical buildings for all of these plans. And that's how the city looked. This is St. Petersburg, the main street of St. Petersburg. This is how it looked before. And this is today, so basically you can see not much has changed. The city center is still from the 18th century, from the 19th century. So what you see in red is this historical fabric, historical core, that actually was developed in the classical plan. Referring a bit that Raphael produced a nice poster with avant-garde images introducing this lecture. And I wanted to say that actually in the 20s and 30s there were a lot of thoughts how cities should be planned in Russia. But the thing is that at the time there were no money, so nothing happened. So after the war in 1940s and 1950s actually when Stalin came in power this classical planning was back on. They started doing classical plans again, so like no avant-garde, but nobody was interested in avant-garde. So they were building big streets, classical ensembles, you could say. Yes, yes, like Paris, yes, yes, like a big prospect, big avenues, yes. And that's the plan for St. Petersburg. And the plans for all the other cities were going as the same. Even in St. Petersburg they planned a city extension that would go outside of the historical core. This was the plan. In 1935 you could see this was the master plan for St. Petersburg. The reason I'm saying is that actually these city parts are quite good and quite interesting. They have good fabric. And they're just, in every city they just take one small part. They're just small pieces inside it, only the central core. If you see the map of the normal Russian city then red part is something that was designed until 1950s. Red part is before 1950s. So just what do we do with planning these parts now? There's obviously historical preservation. There are strategies to densify these places and of course we try to improve public spaces so the governments and also public authorities try to improve public spaces. But then there's a next layer. We could say around this historical city, historical core, there's a layer of what we call grey belt. Grey belt is industrial areas. Industrial areas of the first industrialization period, like end of the 19th century. And it could have some working factories, but a lot of them look like this, so like this, a bit abandoned. And if you look at St. Petersburg, this is where the people are, the check-ins and Twitter. So you could easily say where the center is. And then in between here, the zone that is empty, that's the grey belt. So the historical core, whatever is grey here, it's colored to grey normally. That's the grey belt. And then the further layers that I will show now will be grey. That's considered. So each city, not only in St. Petersburg, every Russian city has it, and that's a general problem for all of them because these areas are sitting just next to the historical core and they're kind of abandoned. So St. Petersburg, at least, is a city that has a very good industrial center and it ends up being a problem. And that's what I think is the most important thing, that the historical area is abandoned. More potential. Yes, abandoned, but it has to be done by you. So what is going on there now, there's private interests and private developers trying to do in film master plans but also cities are looking at the strategies of the bigger, how do you make these parts of the city work? Actually, 80% of the build fabric in the Russian city happened after 1950s. And 80% was built later, in the last 50-60 years. And that's when they developed prefabricated construction. That's when they started building cheap. In 1955, there was a law in the Soviet Union that said the buildings should have low decoration on them, so it's prohibited to have any decoration, it should be as simple as possible. So, you know, the Soviet citizen was supposed to have a typical product and the buildings also became like a typical product. Everywhere the same, in the country, the same types of buildings were developed. And in urban planning, what they developed as a unit was called, in Russia it's called Viterayon, or micro-district, that has the residential buildings, the school, key requirements and the shop. It's not so micro, because it's usually one kilometer by one kilometer without any streets inside, so it's like a big vinyl unit. But it's called Viterayon. And that's what they started building after. So like, just the typical building standing in a big vinyl unit. A bit like in Brasilia. But more, more of those. But in the 1980s they learned how to make them curry. Yes, vinyl structures started to look like that. It looks like the housing hall in the middle. Yes, but there's only one, and here we have all our cities that are built in this space. This is the usual picture, you would say, you cannot even recognize which city it is, because every Russian city has that. So, in San Petersburg, all these colors, the different colors, you would say different areas, different types of buildings, but they're all the same, where we solve these colors, the stuff is built later. We can say that this problem with these big areas, big Soviet construction, has not yet been done. So nobody knows what to do with them. There are people here, there are no strategies around there. People own them, so that's going to be a problem later on. So, what is the problem today? There are many cities, many cities, many cities. To be honest, you don't know what to do with them. The problems are not solved yet. And there are some challenges, there are situations that are not solved. These are products, either again, this metro region produced by private developers or a settlement produced by private developers, like more like an integrated community. And these are usually placed outside of the city or at the city outskirts, so creating urban sprawl. And they, you could say, this is the type of problem. So what is happening in the planning and what Russian planning is doing now, actually they support these private investments. These are the built fabric of the city, as they are today, and as they are drawn in the master plans. So the official city regulations actually allow for all these sprawl to happen. You could compare these different cities, like the Ufa, for example, they want to build seven bridges across the river just to allow these inspections. And actually you could say that population is not growing. So they double the city, without doubling, without increasing population. So above all, you can see how these buildings are today, and in part, the planning of the official city, where you see what is being planned for these sprawl to happen. So the population is not growing, so the truth is, the population is not growing. Same is happening in these new standard groups. These are the places where the buildings are being built now. So you could see there more on the outside of the city. And these are like one unit is being built in here, every year. And even more is being built outside of the city, so like in the city region, really sprawling outside. And if we think about traditional sprawl like in America, this is a Russian sprawl. So what is being built is very super dense neighborhoods outside of the city. Super beautiful. So basically what I am showing you these images is that what is being built now is like this outside layer. You know, we are building a lot of square meters on the outside, but what we want to do? We want to start building inside within the city, redevelop. As the urban planners in Russia who try to introduce what we can do, not to follow the market, we think that that is our aim and our goal, because about 30% of the areas are not used. So this project that we did in this competition this year was exactly about saying, how do we start redeveloping these areas? So this project that we did in this competition this year was exactly about saying, how do we start redeveloping these areas? It was arranged by the city, so it was the initiative of the city to start talking about this subject. So this is the area they were giving us for the competition, so it sits in between the historical core and in between the social literary and social city. So basically this is the first question we put ourselves, we ask ourselves, if that is the classical St. Petersburg identity and this is the normal social, I don't know, you call it Triana, everyday city, what is this place in between, what kind of identity can it get? So again, we started looking at what is already there, because when you work with any area in the city, you never start from scratch, there is some life that was there before. And this is showing again Twitter, so the bright, where life is there. You should understand this game, this is 4,000 hectares, so quite a big area, 4,000. So actually what we found out is that there are some places that already work like small urban towns or small urban villages within the area. So we started our work with re-analysing what is there and what are the constraints, what are the problems, what doesn't make it develop like big infrastructure, obviously railways and polluted land and these kind of things. But at the same time we tried to find some positive things like historical heritage or green networks that we could combine and build something out of them. And of course we walked everywhere and that was the most interesting part, because these are the places you normally don't go. I think that's the most interesting part of the game, where you go to five places. This is, you could say, like one kilometer away from the city center or something like that. This is not a part. And you could even find some more stuff, like a lot of things that you can find in the city center or something like that. And you could even find some more strange things. So basically these are like areas where people hold land but they don't do anything, so they use it as a parking for cattle and for other crops. We tried to find also something that we could start upon for work space, so we identified factories that are working or big plants that are working and the small stars are actually showing research institutions. So in some of the time there was a lot of research institutions, they're still operational and there are a lot of them are located here. And some of them are developing into more like a greenhouse house. So that was the whole picture. And what we understood for ourselves is that we cannot come up with a big project. So that's not something that will solve easy problems of design because there are a lot of problems and we have to start from somewhere. So what we wanted to do is to create conditions for this place to develop. So we were doing this project for the city and what we wanted the city is to create conditions for this place to develop. So basically we have created several strategies that should work for this whole area. The third strategy was about linking it together because one of the biggest problems of the area is that it doesn't have enough connections. So what we wanted to do is to create a connection with the railway to build more streets across the railway and basically to create green network corridors. The railway is already there but to use it for public transportation. At the moment railways are used on different routes. So this railway goes to the port that's also going to close soon. So all this area will not need the port. So what we found interesting with this green network is that actually there is a lot of small pockets of nature along the railways and along the abandoned lands that could become a new structure in this whole area. So the second strategy that we proposed to the city is that you should not develop or you should not look at this area as one thing. But actually if you start looking at different nodes because nodes like public transport, public transport, metro or railways stop and then around it there is something that you could take a small city. So in the end you define a third of these different neighborhoods that could be then built separately. Basically you define a structure for them. And what we wanted is that each of these neighborhoods gets mixed use. So in the beginning in the brief they asked us to do 30% residential, 30% industrial, 40% building. But we always wanted to be mixed inside small blocks, small neighborhoods. So in the requirements we wanted to make sure that 30% residential, 30% building, 30% industrial, 40% building, 30% industrial, 40% building, 30% industrial, 40% building. And basically this percentage in the brief because they want to stop developers to build only housing. They want to have mixed use neighborhoods and so they start introducing new measures because otherwise developers build only housing. So inside this competition we had an overall strategy but we also had to look at one of these neighborhoods as a zoom in. And basically what we are trying to develop as a plan here is something that would correspond to our principles or to our understanding of what should be the next St. Petersburg giving environment. In general because we think we should not be there, we should start building inside the city again. Ok, so here again we had different neighborhoods and we wanted each neighborhood to be mixed and depending on where it is located. I told them this is located near this central station, near the train station so that it has more of the offices, has students, housing. So this is one of the examples where there is a metro station, where there is a commercial station, where there are students, for example. So what we wanted is the city to be complex and to be better. So the idea is that this part of the city is complex and diverse. So we also for the neighborhoods that are lying next to the historical center because over there from the top the historical city fabric stands over. So we wanted to create blocks that would be the same shape, the same form and also possibility for workshops that more can leave units inside them like traditional housing. So we wanted to be like the place where you work, leave at the same time. And these beats after the public was our reply to what is new in Kareon-Globi where you still have the school in the center but the school becomes also the hub for the neighborhood. So in some way it started with the introduction of the Bicro-Ray, which is one of the super quadros that we are going to talk about here. But in other cities, in other cities of use, it has a new interpretation of the school and the community services. What we tried to do, we tried to save all the historical heritage that was on the site and integrate it. And so this was, let's say, the overall story or the overall plan that we produced and that we are still discussing in the city. But at the same time we started, we got a commission from the developer to continue on the site we've been looking at. So the interesting thing is that when we end the competition we could be free to propose what we wanted, to propose how we see the mix, how we see saving the heritage, how we see different technologies. And when we are facing now the real developer, they have their own demands. For example, this growing is the land ownership on the site. So you can understand that there is a lot of interest on the site. And our developer only owns this little plot, but he wants to make deals with the bidets, so let's say our first piece in the brief is that we should put as many square meters as we can here. And on the small plots, schools in the gardens and all the rest. We are trying to do our best. We are still trying to make sense out of what they, we are still trying to make it a good place. So this is how the plan looks now, it's, I think it has, let's say much less of the different diversities, because all the developers tend to sell specific product to Russia, more like a bid. Now, now actually they tend to sell quarters more. Like they want to know. They don't want to be Korean, they say they don't want to be Korean, but in the end... This is my last image here. This is work in progress now, we are still working on this project, not submitted. So what we are doing here in this project is you could say a consultancy for the developer that will then put it into the middle plan. So in Russia, actually developers are allowed to produce middle plans, and that could, because right now this whole area is zoned for industry. And they want, if they ever do anything there, they have to do housing or these things too. So they have to reduce first a plan that would change zoning for them, and then they could start rebuilding. It's a luxury, it's a luxury. We have to move all the cities, but they can make an issue, so they can be the client for this one, and that's what they're doing. Hello, your question. Of course, what they do that they don't do in the city, they try to negotiate with the city government before. And there is an important person in the Russian city, which is called the head architect, who should be approved or not approved this decision. And I have found more sites, since Erufe asked me to talk about the planning structure in Russia. You don't know that? I'm not going to talk about this site, this is the planning structure of the city, if you want me. We are going to talk more about the planning structure of the city. She's asking about the, because in the past, during this time, when it has the industrial area, was that owned by the public sector or was it already private? And how was this transition? It was public and civil, and then they started selling these different pieces, became either private or sometimes they're civil owned by the federal government, by the city government. Now it's really difficult, because at some point they allow to buy or to create these other products. In order to deal with this situation, because it's impossible to redevelop industrial zones in front of the landowners, this year they created a new legislation that's like, will be better in purchase. So if they, for example, this area, they could pull it, like, especially for development, and then they have to sell it within one year. It's not possible to do this kind of business. It's not possible. Thank you for your, like, I think we have some, I think we have some questions for you. We're on the table to decide what to do, and maybe we'll talk about that. You are absolutely right. This competition was announced as a competition for ideas, so they didn't promise any realization, and they didn't call developers in the beginning. I don't know why, but I think sometimes the government is still trying to play it with developers. This door or against this door? Yes, because it's much more interesting if you had all the developers on the table. Since it's a big area, it's a big area. Well, that's a good question. Right now, they say in Russia there's 25 square meters per person of houses, and they want to reach 40. So, let's say without increasing the population, they want to basically do around 30% of the system. That's the whole issue. Yeah, I think it's also something similar in how they predict the best people will live in each house. So in the best three persons will be living in each house, and not one person. So the population is still the same, but there is a need to build more houses. Because also because the market privatizes, so people now have a better understanding of this place. But it's still a good question, because I don't believe it. Because it's just something that the developers say to build a lot of crappy housing fast, and in the end that will be a real problem. Because it needs to be placed like it was outside of the system. But at the moment, the government really supports cheap housing, and they even, you know, if they put a lot of this investment in those kind of things, they support it. Yeah, that's a good question. I have a question first, about the issue of... If when the compulsive was in the state, if the developers participate in the compulsion of the compulsion, once and then, only once, they will interact with the plans, right? Because when they are in the state, after they arrive in the next state, they will change. I want to hear from you. In the end, the compulsion started with the idea of the city, the compulsion was only 10 years old, so it didn't have a purpose to interact with anything. But after the second state, with the control of the state, they will be able to do both things. In the end, when the compulsion is in the state, they will have to build so many new buildings in the city. And we were expecting that there will be less people living in each house. That is to say, she said that until then, what was the rate of the new buildings per house? It was exactly the rate of the new buildings per house. Yeah, it was. So at the end of the day, they will have to build 5 square meters for each person. 200 meters, and they will have to build 40 square meters for each person. So they will have to build it. But it's a paradox because they say they want 40 square meters per house. But the average plan of now being built in Russia is 28 meters. But we have hope that we believe that it's going to change because right now we are working for another developer who said it was building very big neighborhoods. And it's all the same. Now he invited us to think what we can go out and because it doesn't sound good. So anyway, when all these paradoxes and constructions come together, I don't think it's going to change anything. Very similar to you. Very similar to you. Very similar to you. So, more questions? Yeah, I have one question. What extent does the population have access to each house? And how much participation is involved? Officially, there is only one instrument for them to involve themselves. It's like an instrument of public representation of the project. That's usually done when the project is already done. So I know they put it in the administration here. The project might involve time with something, repetition, but it's not important. It's a bit of an obvious thing because even if people come, or some exit boards, if they want to build a house in the park, then there's been cases, yes. But usually, sort of public participation is not something very important. People in government don't really want to do it. It's too long and the only efficient procedure that they should do is at the end of the project to confirm that nobody is against it. If the project is ready, then there will be public representation and people will be able to say whether they want it or not. But I think it's going to involve a lot of things. I mean, people who don't write a book, they make a big representation, but in general, there will be more participation. But of course, it's easier to discuss the national language. And now there's a lot of activism. So they're trying to now see how they participate in the project, not to talk about the space projects. So for parts of the spaces, they want to invite people to contribute to the design. That's how it became a long-winded process. So now there's more and more participation, there's more pressure, participation and activism, etc. So the trend here is to start this process in a more previous stage of the planning. And this is already happening in the public examples. So this part of the project is being discussed and we need to contribute to the project. I didn't tell you much about the existing area, but the existing area is actually a freight ground, so there's not much there on the site. So that's what we're going to do today. So basically this big orange is just a railway track, so there's nothing to be preserved. And here as well, so it's going to be in these specific cases. And the only building that has a historical heritage, our plan goes through most. Okay. Unfortunately it's a good question, So it's really hard to keep the nest out of this, because they take a lot of any and they don't feed their object. So here we go about it, but normally it's to be fight for every sort of heritage that's still building. And that's something that the seeds should also support, because otherwise, the developers have no idea. These guys, they own a super beautiful plant here, and now they're really just a million sets of them. So, in fact, it's really hard to convert these industrial things, because the general question that you use, as we do, is, in fact, the importance of the industrial components is that it doesn't have to be a factory, it has to be a factory, it has to be a factory. The problem with Saint Petersburg is that they put a million under preservation of heritage and you cannot do anything there. And it just falls apart, so it falls apart. There is this whole thing, so we need developers that will, we use industrial heritage to get out of preservation. This is something that we need developers to be able to do, and we need them to be able to do the things that they want to do. What about with targets, for example, like young people? 80% of projects or anything down in Russia is actually being done with private money. So whatever sells, we'll do it. They could try, now they could try finance. If they don't sell, they try small resets, if they make small apartments for students, they could try different things, but it's still a big private apartment. So right now, what they were doing was the small apartments. I can tell you the projects that they're building now, when developers, they start selling before the project is finished. So they start selling more grand-games of images and they see what's up. They often get the change in the grid, so they tell us what is more of this one, more smaller apartments, so it's always the best. She's asking if there was any research about who would concentrate in this right now? For ourselves, we haven't any, as you were saying, that they said the young people and the students who rent in the city center, they would want to be here for sure. And actually, who could be for them? Developers now don't want to be. But the city was to start a new program called rent housing, so they want to start building houses for rent. And I think these great areas are perfect for this project. This is just our last year in this program, so I think it's going to be great. At first, the young people and the students would want to be here for sure, because there aren't many people living in the city center. So I think the city center has a new program that started last year, which is rent housing. So I think it's a good part of this community to be here for rent. But what they did was, in front of the houses, who financed that, and how do you ensure that? They built it all the way, they opened it, or something else, or something else. So this is a 20% percent, because 8% are private developers. But I mean, they didn't have to. So as you can see, about 80% are these private entrepreneurs, and 20% aren't here, and 70% of the public are in this program of rent. It's a rent program, so you're going to rent a apartment or you're going to have to rent a house. That's what you're going to do. Well, the rent is a very simple thing, but it's a very simple thing. But what happens in Brazil is that most of these houses here has no income. So there's a big lack of payment. There's a lot of market. So maybe more than that. If you think about it, you don't know about that. You don't know how to do that. You can't do that. And you can see how it's coming this area. It's coming by the guys. You know, the team is the capital sector. But so is there a... I mean, the context of this sort of question is, is there also a whole big lack of technicians in the city, also, in municipalities, in order to allow the money to take over? No, no. Actually, in Russia, in the Soviet times, they had planning institutes that were associated with the administration. And they had hard times in the 90s and they got very small salaries. But then, these are part of... So they still... We saw money somewhere. But these institutes, they're there, in terms of they're doing all the engineering plans, like infrastructure plans, bigger master plans for the city, this is all being done. That's not a problem. Problems, I would say, in Russia, only of land, that's being sold for different purposes. So sometimes, irrational, absolutely irrational. Like if you say, every month for a city, they... If you calculate every store meter, they allocate each of the... Each city should double their... You know, every month. Of course, that's how the reality is about each... Every zone. What... What makes the reality is that cities don't have money, we need infrastructure everywhere. We have schools everywhere, they don't have money for first-person. So then they... People move there, they don't take a look at us, we're responsible for some... So the problem is, it goes to the planning, but enforcing the planning legislation. And making sure that these developers don't have to go to the drive to play a fair game. They also participate in the infrastructure, or that they know that it must develop that direction. So that's what our problem is. We're going to go down through some formal... formal operations, because the cities are amazing, obviously. To control the... to control the... the... I mean, process. Yeah, but what I mean is, once the private developers try to go to... to make the buildings, they have to enter private buildings themselves, because they want the money back. That's okay, but the question is where they build the buildings. They build the whole site of the city. The city has to provide a space for the... for the... for the... for the city to... for the city to... for the city to... for the city to... for the city to... for the city to... put the markets there, and see how... for example, these people, But what we want to do now, in Russia, is to change from life, to helping to plan the projects. Because it is just a problem, it's a problem. There is a big, big, big problem. But if you plan for a year, like very well, then okay, what's the next step? What's the implementation? Who should do it, you know, pre-forever? Who should do it, railway infrastructure, and so on. So that's something we try to do not to establish more project-based voices inside the administration. Because by the end of the year, the implementation is a problem. But if you say before the implementation, what's the problem? It's a problem. So you have a mission now. You have to be outside of the mission. Any more questions? No. It's just something that I would say, because we were talking about stuff. I was previously interviewing Yana, because he studied it. I kind of started research planning in different cities. And that's how I came to Yana and found out very interesting what was going on in Russia. Because she was in Brazil, I thought that we should have a discussion and share these ideas. But I have some other questions, which I was talking to her. The first thing that I was very curious about was Russia and its definition. Why cities make plans? Why this project come to Brazil? And this seems to be the result of a project that I started to do in some cities. I started to make plans in different ways. And then I started to talk to her. And she asked me if I wanted to do some research. So I'm lying here. The first question she asked was, why does Russia make plans? What is the mission of Russia? I don't know. Because I think there will be a lot of people in Brazil. And there are some things that will happen. Like all the cities in the city, you can't write it down, you can't write it down on the right. There are some things that will be very strong. So I'm lying here. I started to create this mission. And she said that she was going to answer what she said. The mission of Russia. And she said that she had a torture to death. So in Russia there is a very strong management culture that comes from this communist era, that has been planned for the rest of the country. You need to be able to contribute to the work that will be done in the country. So it's a variance of the Soviet system that comes today. The management systems still exist. There are a lot of them. So there is a management culture. So the management systems are always there. And I have recently, since I was born in the United States, so I'm very happy that I can continue as a communist and a communist, to have influence on the country. So this is the first thing. And the second question that I have got for her was how do the scioners, the Bayernists, how do they participate in these plans? Because my intention is to have a lot of interest So maybe you can talk a little bit about how the four organized competitions and this kind of thing have all highest plans, you know, just a little bit. I know you already said something that the private sector can also make plans, but in general. There is an additional plan that's active, so they're like, we're the laws that say each month should be made, so the plan for the whole country, the month of the region, the last month of the city, turn a single government. But aside from that, often the legal documents don't really handle the program, so they're very general about everything. So for example, that's being very efficient in Moscow, because yes, they need the plan for the neighbor, the whole strategy for the regeneration, the whole strategy for, again, for like, regenerating the brain without eggs. Then now they are doing, redoing all the streets in the city, so they created, like, the plan and strategy for renewing all of the streets. And so that's because the mayor there sells it as his projects, so he wants his projects. So the government basically becomes a client for these type of bigger projects. But the government doesn't project that often, and the people don't present for the new, so they arrange, like, if it's an environment, then developers have to pay for them parts of the environment. But the projects are initiated by the government, and I think this is the best in that case, the most efficient. Well, one of the things she said in the middle, is that it depends on the management in general, as we've already talked about the city with all the management systems, which in the end are not implemented, especially with the management. But depending on each city, whether it's in a defense or whatever, it's definitely implemented by the government. It's a political issue, I don't think it's going to be implemented with that. So in the end here, the focus is on a specific area where the city is really implemented. So, to give the example of this project, the RIVO, that has been established, that, in any case, it's the generation of the RIVO, so it has the doors, the parts of the RIVO, so it has some basic systems that have 3 minutes. And then the incorporators, we have to take a step forward from the 3 minutes of it, whatever it is, we call it participation, a new public-private partnership, even though the RIVO is being built to execute part of the plan, part of the public space, etc. There's another idea that was initially conceived by RIVO, but in this case, for example, of Moscow, was there a competition to select a team or is there a way to manage it? Usually, the group of teachers who just raise awareness of the project, they most frequently actually chose the team that the project made for the competition, yes. The group of teachers, not only to do projects after the competition, sometimes they do a competition to make this project, to bring it into public ground, because if you do a competition, it becomes important to be able to start talking about everybody who sees these problems there, or sees those things there. So sometimes it doesn't result directly into the project, but it doesn't result later. For me, there's a part of us, because they mentioned the competition, the project, to the public ground, but there's no participation in the end with the population. It's more about planners and it's more about the city and the developer's right. It's less about the city and its population debating the plan and asking for changes. For now, yes, for now, yes, because this is a population journey, so population also needs to learn how to participate, why to participate, and sometimes it depends. When you have a CTA, you are like, this week, it's hard to do participation, because it's just too weak. But often when you do a competition for a small part, they start with about the consolidation and they start with that. But I think population in Russia, like extra population for being there is still not so active. It's just developing. Last year we worked on the last one for the CTA book, and we have like 100 experts involved and always talking from the people who say for public that more experts. So it's very complex to do a project for a public opinion, for people to participate, but there's no other way to do it. It's to do it together with the organizers. As I said earlier, in fact, the same people will only see the plan when it's already very ready. But in the end, it's responding and in the end it's changing. So that's the history of Russia. The first situation starts in 1991, and we're going to end it now. We're starting to bring the participation a little bit closer to the initial stage of the project. So my opinion is a little bit closer to this transition, too. And now, I mean, CTA is already working on a project, but we're already having a starting point. I think this question is very interesting, because when I was working on it, I also thought about the question of the participation, because everyone talks about it, of course it's very important, but we have to think about how these things are going to work. Imagine that someone makes a plan, a plan, a plan, a plan, and everyone who comes here wants to make a plan and wants to make a plan. So I think this is a great challenge for the humanist. And what role do the humanists, who are specialists in humanism, play in the plan? Yes, we're all here. So if you want to make a plan, you can make a plan, but what if you want to make a plan? I don't know. This is a very interesting project. Now, I also have a question about participation. Why do you have cooperation here? I think I would like to do part of the cooperation that you have here. How to get part of the cooperation? Medical. Medical cooperation. Yes. Now, here, it looks like you opened your own venue, but it's a little bit of a challenge. Yes, what is CTA part of the partnership? Exactly. I see from participation. I also did a little bit of a project in last year, which is a start. It's very difficult also to make people come to the meeting and to let people come, and then they never show up, and then they never show up in the end, and they don't want anything. So it's really difficult to make people come. Well, probably the participation is general, but it's in September and May. Or here, you know, who is participating, who are the people who should be participating or not. And then they crash because they also do. And for public participation, they do general projects, like, for example, they did some of those all, but that's also not. So every season, who's like me, or the website, the idea of what they want and then who discusses the idea is not. And often, these ideas are very much about public space improvements. So somehow, they learn that you move in and invite people to these public space discussions. It's a happy, but you get an intersection with the public space. So we're talking about how people really act according to the plan. Of course, there's a demand to participate, well, in the civil democracy, people think that they should participate, and so on, but in the end, it's all up to you to do the same thing. You have to do the same thing for the project and the plan. And then, the people who say they want to do that or that it's a mutation, in the case of Moscow, they would start like this and the people would go to the website and put it in the experience. And all these questions about Moscow were talking about Rotterdam. They would come up with a composition that would be difficult to even build. It was at least a couple of years ago from Rotterdam's prefecture. And they would come up with a plan that would be difficult and in the end, they would go to the city. And then people would go to the site of Rotterdam and they would go to the city more. It would be an online appointment. In the city of Rotterdam, we want to have experience and not to go to the city where people are looking at. So it's the full definition of the question. Sometimes, the stack of stack, I don't know, I remember it was a project. All the land, all the land was in the wind and I think we could think that it was the land and the people were going to the project. It's not complicated, it's the economic percentage, in other words, the city hall, in addition, and people who vote for the finalists and in the end, the jury, it's not sex, it was the public who wanted it, but it was not any futile, it was a drug attack. It was like a green office act, but it was not made for the public. But it was made by... Very interesting approach by thinking in small, structures of the city and planning the micro-scales. But in another way, I can say, can you do yourself that we did that on the end, the bigger I want is being reproduced in this grey belt, what should be the purpose of it? So who got the money to do the things? We do the same thing in the suburbs. So what we can assume is they're cutting costs, they okay, it's too expensive for the government to put all these infrastructures so far away, so let's just bring our projects closer where we already have some infrastructure, because it's in the center of this period. But then, yeah, what's going to happen if they be growing up? They would never have the infrastructure, but it's nice to think in a micro-scale, but what I'm asking is, if just because of these grey belts, it's not a way of bringing in grey belts, like what will become of the new grey belt? And as you said, there are owners of the apartments, and certainly the price you go down, they will not be able to sell their apartments to live in the new grey belts. How are we dealing with this true design, what design can make it to benefit these people with this infrastructure? That's a very radical question. Hopefully you found an answer according to Russia's so far. There's no, I haven't, this meeting is discussed for the last 10 years, and I haven't seen many projects that we weren't really mentioning, because there is really a big problem with grey belts, which means individual ownership of apartments. So that means you cannot want to continue without paying anybody, and it was also, in some parts, they didn't know about that, they didn't want to try experiments, and they haven't done anything, so they didn't know for a minute. So for now, for the grey belts that they've been doing they don't know the things about it right now, because this will be a real problem. What we can do about this right now, I also don't, maybe I really don't know. What do you think, in general, is that what will you try to do is to solve this problem, because if you look inside, you see there are a lot of new people, but if that's your... Well, and again, I agree with your point, and certainly that we are bringing this big career along to the center, two reasons for that, legislation, and apparently a lot of people trying to save money. Legislation, in Russia, is difficult, but in North, they are designed in 1960s, and North say, how many people, how long do you work from the school? Six hundred years. You should not work from the school. And because of that, you get the career, it's really, really hard, and the only developers are after changing it. Otherwise, because they have to really reapply to do something against the rules. If you just follow the rules, you get a new career, because it was designed in 1960s, and it's the cheapest model. Because in the Soviet times, they designed less jobs, less infrastructure, the cheapest model. This is something that's hard to see now. There is a debate about changing legislation, and hopefully it will be done, so that each team now can change the legislation, and that's, in some part, being done, but similarly. So, I haven't shown you what was really being done, very well. Yes, it's important. Because they really, really created the center. And that's done by private companies. So, what we try to discuss with the government here is that they should, they should set up their speciality, special regulations, because they don't get to be feeling the center. So, to finish, I have a question. He asked, what happens then, with the support of this new problem that the organizations face, because once you're creating this new area, this gray belt, it's regenerating, it's going to be more expensive, it's going to be a much better quality. So, what happens with that area? You see the bandone here, in a certain way, right? And the value of that area, I think it's something almost completely wrong, but it's really a very complex question, because you can't transform those areas, because they are private companies, so if you want to transform that area, you have to try to do the same, so it's almost impossible. And in some areas, when you have 5 areas, you can buy it, but when you're in a private company, you have to do it in the same place, so it's a very difficult area, but you have to think about how to deal with those projects, especially with a regulation, which is closed, it's a very complicated area, so you have to do it in a certain way, so you can transform something that you already know, so it's really necessary for you to have a regulation to be able to transform that area. I would like to thank everyone who came, to attend the meeting, to use it in the afternoon, and all the complicated questions, and I would like to thank Yonah Popere, for the schedule, for sharing your ideas, and thank you Yonah for coming, for sharing your ideas, and taking a little bit of your holiday time, to share your thoughts about the rest of the system. Thank you very much, for having given us the space to organize the budget, and for supporting us.