 Institute of Peace. She joins me here in the studio. Susan, thanks very much for coming in. Clearly, exuberation on the streets of Khartoum today. How long does it last now that we know that there's going to be military rule in the country for the next couple of years at least? Well, I think the celebration is real. And the people who have been struggling for a long time and the effort has been serious. And so I think having that moment of celebration is important. But the concerns are really serious. Many Sudanese have said very clearly what they envision for their future and that a military-led government does not fulfill those aspirations. And so we've already heard from the Sudanese Professional Association that helped to organize these protests and sit-ins that people will stay until then. I think we should be watching to see what happens between the senior levels within the military and those who are in rank and file. There have already been serious and significant defections that have taken place. I think we also need to watch what happens between the different parts of the security services. It's not just military and police. There's also the national intelligence services that are armed and uniformed. There are the rapid support forces. So some people refer to those as the Janjuid 2.0, which you may remember from Darfur period. And then some of the elements within the regime have their own militias that are affiliated with them. So I think there's some serious risks there. To what extent has Bashir degraded Sudan's economic capability during the last few years, during his 30 years in power? And to what extent is the success or failure of what has just happened going to depend on whether whoever takes over now can deliver something economically to people there? Absolutely. I mean, the economy has continued to go into a deep slide. The last time I was in the country, which was about a year ago, there was spot pricing taking place even then. So as you were eating your meal, the prices were changing because of the inflation. And so I think a really critical aspect during the course of the meal, it would change because of inflation. So I think really critical will be to figure out how can any new government access the debt relief that they need, which from the U.S. perspective also means getting off of the list of states that sponsor terrorism. And a military led regime won't succeed in doing that any better than President Bashir was able to. Susan, if I were an EU leader, I would be really worried at this moment. I mean, presumably this, if it goes wrong, has the potential to destabilize not just Sudan, but a wider region and potentially lead to an awful lot of people seeking to get out of the region and head north into Europe? Indeed. I couldn't put it better. I think that Sudan is a large country. It sits at the bridge between East Africa, where we see massive political transitions taking place in Ethiopia. Prime Minister Abbey has been in power for one year. But that transition is also fragile. We have obviously the tremendous and tremendously difficult events taking place in Libya, a transition in Algeria. And so I think this really points to the need for the UK, for the United States, for other partners and partners in the region as well to define what are the parameters for a successful transition process based on what we're hearing from the Sudanese people. They've clearly articulated this. And I think there's some very clear ways that the international community can help to make sure that a transition gets onto the right track. Okay. Susan Stiggen, thank you very much for coming in to join us. Great point there, Matthew, that we look at these countries. We look at them in isolation. Of course, as everybody in Europe knows, there are knock-on effects when there is an economic crisis of some kind in an African country.