 I welcome everybody to the first meeting of the education and culture committee in 2015. I'd like to wish everyone who follows the work of the education and culture committee a happy new year and remind all of those present that electronic devices should be switched off at all times because they tend to interfere with the broadcasting system. Our first item on the agenda this morning is, it's a nice one in many ways, is to welcome Mark Griffin and it would be to welcome Siobhan McMahon, although she's unfortunately delayed this morning and may not make it to the committee, but can I welcome Mark to the committee as one of our new Labour party members? They obviously replaced Jane Baxter and Neil Bibby, who have now resigned from the committee and I'm sure that all members would like to record their thanks to both Neil and Jane for the work that they undertook while they were members of the committee. I'd also like to welcome Mark and Siobhan to the committee, so I'm sure that we look forward to working with Mark and Siobhan and wish Neil and Jane well in their new roles. However, can I begin by inviting Mark Griffin to declare any relevant registerable interests? Thank you for the welcome, convener. I have no interests to declare relevant to the work of the committee. The second item on the agenda this morning is that Neil Bibby's resignation means that we must also appoint a new deputy convener at the Parliament previously agreed that members of the Labour party are eligible for this post. Can I invite nominations from members of that party for the deputy convenership? I'm happy to nominate Siobhan MacMahon. I'm assuming that Siobhan will accept that nomination even though she's not here, so everybody content with that nomination? Thank you very much. I'm sure that we'll pass on the good news to Siobhan that she's now the deputy convener of the Education and Culture Committee. Can I now turn to item 3 on our agenda, which is to discuss the success to date of Time to Shine, Scotland's first national youth art strategy? The 10-year strategy was published in November 2013, and we are fully aware that some of its aims may only be realised over the longer term. Nonetheless, today's session provides an opportunity to discuss a number of areas. We are particularly interested in how the strategy has been implemented to date, how it's helped to change the provision of an engagement in youth arts and, of course, the progress required to ensure its full implementation. Can I welcome to the committee this morning Judith Barclay, National Youth Orchestra of Scotland, Blair Boyle, Youth Arts Boys Scotland, Alison Hardy, Young Scott, Kenny McLashen, Youth Theatre Arts Scotland and Mark Sheridan, Reader in Music and Creativity, the University of the Highlands and Islands. Can I welcome all of you to the committee this morning? We're going to get underway by going straight to questions from members. Before I ask members to come in, I just wondered whether, if I can run along the line and just ask a very general background question, what do you believe the impact of Scotland's first youth strategy has been? Has it made a quantifiable difference to the way that youth arts are looked at and the way that they are actually dealt with on a day-to-day basis in Scotland? I think the one key indicator about the time to shine and the investment is a recognition of the value of the arts and the young people in Scotland and I think investing in confidence in the organisations across the country that work with young people. I think that raising of confidence in a realisation of recognition of the work is welcome given the last few years of financial uncertainty and so on and so forth and other priorities for our countries to say we appreciate and we want to invest further in young people and culture is a big message for us. I think I agree with everything that Mark said and also it's been a really fantastic opportunity for lots of arts companies and bodies to come together and collaborate as well which I think has been a really, really positive thing that we can all kind of club together and try and make a difference so I think that's been a massive positive from the strategy as well. I suppose just reiterating what's already been said. The feedback that we've had from our sector at Youth Theatre Arts Scotland work as a sector development organisation so we represent a number of members in a number of different regions in practice as an umbrella organisation. The feedback that we've had from our members and the participants at our events has been about those two things, recognition and dialogue. Firstly it's recognition about what they've already been doing and the impact that they can have into the future but also I think that the dialogue that it's going to promote both within the art form sectors, within the regions but also beyond the art form sectors to the connected education and cultural sectors that they regularly engage with. It's really exciting, it's really vibrant, it poses real opportunity for the future. I agree with everything that's been said as well. It's been great enriching people's life with the different ideas of culture and arts. So far it's been just the various ages but it's good to see how far it's going to go and how good it will be. As Fugona Hyslop wrote in the forward to Time to Shine, she said that if Scotland wants to become an international leader in youth arts they must put young people at the heart of what we do and I think that we're already starting to see that through the recruitment of Youth Arts Voice Scotland and the work that they're doing. I think that through that engagement with young people what we'll start to see is improved targeted provision for young people across Scotland. That's an interesting point and it comes on to the next question that I wanted to ask before I bring in members. That's really again a practical question. What has happened, what's been achieved because of the strategy that would not have been achieved? I know we're in the early days but what has been achieved by the strategy that would not have been achieved had the strategy not been in place? What changes have actually started to occur because of the strategy? You mentioned one there Alison I think but beyond that. One of the things that I think inspires me about the strategy and it was reassuring to our sector and our members was that the focus of the strategy seems to be upon the links and the connections and the networking as opposed to maybe just upon funding buildings or specific practice in a specific area. The Youth Theatre Arts Scotland were established 10 to 12 years ago out of a bit of research that was done by the Arts Council that recognised that there was a body that was needed within the Youth Theatre sector that sat distinct from those buildings and from those regions and from those individual companies. It was going to professionalise the sector, it was going to support the development of professionals within it and it was going to look at targeting gaps, barriers, opportunities for progression participation and also all the provision as well. So those three themes I've carried through into the strategy we think is really exciting because it's not about funding one specific company, it's about how the links are made that will then just raise the game broadly across the nation. I think it was that kind of the character of the strategy that felt that was really encouraging. We kind of feel like the legacy of the development that we've shown in the Youth Theatre sector that's become very proactive in its self-development is I suppose evidence that that model can work. It just needs to be given time. It took us a couple of years before we had that funding in place as an organisation and it took a number of years before those different milestones were established and so we think this strategy will just need the time to really create the long-term effects that Fiona Hyslop has outlined at the start of the strategy. Certainly for us in the Highlands, the establishment of the youth hubs has been a major advantage of course around the country and has been a substantial investment. For the Highlands we have 13 organisations of all sorts of different cultural and arts organisations as well as community learning and the university. It has brought organisations together who despite inhabiting the same environment have little or had no involvement previously and so that in itself is a major step forward and of course for those living in a rural community any kind of integration or greater interface to enable us to get to particularly harder to get to young people and those who live in isolated communities. The hub gives us an opportunity to think differently about how we do that and to think innovatively and imaginatively across the arts and the way in which we work with young people. So it's early days but that I think has been a really important step forward for us. No doubt we will come on to the hubs, I am sure that Members will have some questions on that. In the meantime can I call on BT? Thank you Mayor. With any sort of initiative like this there is always a risk of creating another bureaucratic layer. Do you think we have avoided creating another bureaucratic layer or do you think that that is an issue? I think from our point of view young Scots role is to support young people's involvement and empower young people to participate in the strategy. I think we need to work with the young people to make sure that there is not that other level of bureaucracy and that young people are able to access and have influence over the strategy easily. That is our role in recruitment of the Youth Arts Voice Scotland group and make sure that the young people are empowered to work with the hubs and national organisations and make sure that there is not that level of bureaucracy. How have we actually avoided creating that bureaucratic layer? I would say so because I think that there is really any evidence of it because you have got the hubs distinct from the money that was just for the strategy itself that very quickly the way that the objectives are being carried out has meant that the money is getting channeled directly to the networks on the ground. The staffing of those hubs is very small. There are two or three people and their job is links and connections so they are streamlining partnership working effectively in the region with some attention and investment towards that. The Youth Arts Program management team is small as well within Creative Scotland and even the events themselves are large networking events for national, local, regional organisations to come together. I cannot see the evidence of a large amount of administration resource being used up by the funding that was set aside. Just taking that step further, one of the key aims is to create access for all. It is to reach people or young people that otherwise we would not have that opportunity to reach. Is there a danger that by widening that focus there could be a danger that Scottish artists might not achieve the international excellence, in other words that we are diluting the talent rather than bringing more up? I would say no, it would be the opposite of that. If you are encouraging the sort of engagement you are actually going to get more talent and more sort of engagement within the arts, it is not necessarily going to be diluted, it is going to be more concentrated in fact. It looks as the kind of pinnacle as a young musician that is what you aim towards. I think we are not changing anything. We are opening up at the grassroots level so we have all of our workshops and everything that we can offer young people, but there is still the scope there for the people that really want to reach the top of their game. They want to be kind of worldwide musicians that really want to go on and take it as a career. I think there is still the option to do that so I definitely don't think we are diluting it in that sense. I can understand the concern whenever an investment is made about the potential for centralisation of a bureaucracy, but I think that our understanding of Creative Scotland and the way the facilitation, and I think Kenny is right about the way in which I would see it and the way we see it on the ground, is that there is a sense of ownership locally. I think when it comes to the dilution, I would say that I would say it is the opposite. I think what Time to Shine does is build on what we do for curriculum for excellence in Gyrfech. It is about the individual young person in Scotland and about what they want to achieve and how we help them no matter who they are. I think there is a lot of young people who are not engaged with the arts and culture that could be. I think that the key to that, and I have mentioned it in my submission, is about not just interagency work in culture, but with community learning, education, health and wellbeing agenda across local communities. Rather than diluting it, I would like to see more people coming through to enrich what we have already. To give you a short anecdote, the chief executive of Scottish Opera, for instance, would comment that as a nation we have a small cohort potentially of being world class opera singers. It is just a genetic fact about being a singer. You need large numbers of people to come through at particular areas. What we have as a nation of young people who can excel in all sorts of different areas and I think being able to give people an opportunity to choose what they want to do and how to do it. I think that we will see more skilled and experts across a range of the arts and culture that we have in the country. One thing, again, is a sector development agency, Youth Theatre Arts Scotland. We characterise ourselves distinct from, for instance, the National Youth Theatre, the Scottish Youth Theatre or the National Youth Performing Arts companies through, I suppose, the richness of diversity that we represent in terms of practice. Obviously, the National Youth Performing Arts Company and the Scottish Youth Theatre are really rich and diverse participants in projects as well. For instance, our National Festival of Youth Theatre will see maybe nine different youth theatres coming from nine different regions within Scotland and beyond all coming together to show different ways of working. I suppose what I wanted to challenge is that this dissolution idea, for me, would come from there only being one track way to progress. I think that Scotland is characterised by its diversity of practice both within the regions but also within the art forms. What we find is really rich is that our National Festival of Youth Theatre is when these groups come together. One of the first National Festival of Youth Theatre that I attended before I ran the organisation, the groups that I saw, one of them came from a youth theatre, a theatre that was a large building-based organisation. Next to that, there was a young carers group and it was just a youth theatre of three young people who wanted to come together and write their own stories. Then the next piece was an international project and then the next piece was the deaf youth theatre. Those are four companies who work in completely different ways and don't have four similar ways to progression. They've got four different ways to progression. The dissolution idea doesn't really work because the pathways are so distinctly different. I was struck by a comment in the submission from Mark Sheridan. It's page two of that submission of page three on the pack. There's a comment made here from one of the practitioners, I think, that two years is a reasonable amount of time to set foundations, begin projects and raise awareness. But then it says, two years is an overly ambitious target to develop fully sustainable arts provision. Maybe the panel could comment on that. If I could pick up just initially, I think that what you'll see in a lot of the submission is this anxiety about sustainability. We have a 10-year vision and two-year funding and there's always an anxiety in arts organisations of our exit strategy. I think they're flagging up already. We see the potential for this. As members of the hub, we've got to make it work. We've got to work together to try and engage and answer the question ourselves. As well as raising, I think, the potential for, as we come towards the middle of the second year or towards the end, okay, where are we going and how do we go there? I think that's really what's been raised there, but I've been interested to hear commentary from others. I think I would find that we've found with a lot of the hubs that obviously the hubs are getting set up themselves. So we've found that perhaps it's taken us longer to implement the workshops and all the work that we wanted to do. So I think our possible worry is that we're going to get towards the end of the two years and we're only just going to be establishing those relationships. I think that the worry is, especially with being a national company, because we are not a self-sufficient hub that we're supposed to be there to support others. That at the end of the two years that we might perhaps lose contact with them, that we're focusing everything into these two years, but it's difficult to get it all set up and to sustain it after the two years have passed. I've been reading the same paper as Colin Beatty's been reading and the same community learning practitioner, who also says, we see limited evidence of organisations working together nearly a year into the project and hasn't really been discussed. She also, or he or she, we need to address how inclusion and equality are addressed. At present, there's limited evidence to show that this is at the forefront of arts organisations as MSP for the Highlands and Islands. I appreciate the difficulties in remote and rural areas, but my understanding is that this is what the strategy is all about, to bring people forward, to look at that talent, whether it's an opera singer from Betty Hill or from Unstar, whatever they want to do. It seems that your own community learning practitioners aren't overly confident in the strategy. That's one of the reasons I think this is an important statement from this practitioner. There have been a number of meetings of the hub, and to be honest, we haven't really started until November, so it's not been a year on for the hubs because they were established in summer. The point that she is raising is that, from an educational perspective and working community arts as well as education from my perspective, there's two different ways of looking at this. There's the arts and cultural organisations who do what they do really well and work with young people who tend to come to them anyway. What she's saying is that we must be aware of the hard-to-get young people, the young people who have difficulty in engaging anyway. She's initiating, or further initiating, conversations within the hub saying that we must address this. I'm with her and the other organisations within the hub have discussed this, and it's part of our priorities to look at this. To be a woman when she was speaking out so forcefully. We can be assured that inclusion and equality will be addressed in future. Can I just go on to my second point? The Alison mentioned about international leader in youth arts. While the briefing paper that we've got from the Parliament's research office has shown that between 2008 and 2013, performing arts, this is college students taking art courses. At school there's not a huge change. College students taking art courses, from 2008 to 2013, performing arts down 28 per cent, dance down 83 per cent, theatre and dramatic arts down 60 per cent, music performance down 54 per cent. It's not exactly going in the right direction to be an international leader in youth arts. I think during the last decade, previous to 2008, there was a large increase in number of arts courses in funer education. Take my area of music, music production, music recording, music performance, music business, music commerce. There was large numbers. I think the reality of the world of creativity, the creative industries, is that there is probably fewer opportunities for young people to gain professional access. And we've recognised that over the years. And it's about recognising the courses that should be invested in, I think, at further education within the country. So although there's been fewer numbers, I think the courses that are now working, and we collaborate with lots of colleges across the UHI, obviously, but also others in the central belt, you see very strong, powerful, well-motivated, well-skilled staff as well. I think we have strong numbers. They're not powerful, but these are the figures I've got here today. And it doesn't make great reading. Are these figures wrong? I think what's probably missing is the numbers who would have graduated from those courses, who then went on to work in the creative industries. That's the kind of measures that we probably don't have. Well, there's an awful lot less graduating now than there were in 2008. And it may be that there's more actually gaining employment now than there was previously. I think that may be the issue. Well, it's a huge reduction, which is of serious concern. But can I just, my third question on creative and professional access, and Judith, I'll come to you in a second. But first of all, I have to say I was quite shocked to discover under the heading of crafts. If we look at creative arts, students enrolled in Scottish higher education institutions, out of 11,000 students in creative arts and design, in crafts we've got 60 in Edinburgh and 70 in Glasgow. I think we're not very serious about craft, creativity in crafts and professional access. And yet that is an enormous employability, money earner, whether you're sitting at home or, you know, the crafting design is huge. And we can come up with 130. But given that it's probably my last question, can I just ask, if anyone wants to mention that, I mean, am I right to be shocked? Maybe not, maybe that's the best we can do. But my final question is to you, Judith, and it's on music tuition fees. I did a freedom of information just before Christmas. I have to say I was quite shocked that in some areas you have to pay £30 a month for music tuition, in some areas you can do your SQA music exam 3, other areas you have to pay, other areas you get concessions if you're on income support, other local authorities you get nothing, summer means tested, you get a little bit of help if you bring along all your earnings to the school and it's under £26,000. But the postcode lottery on music tuition has to bar an awful lot of talented people. And if we're serious about equality, giving everybody an equal opportunity, can I just ask for your thoughts on the charging of music tuition and in your experience has that stopped people from poorer backgrounds or even people that are less than £26,000, the humiliation and embarrassment of taking payslips to the school to ask if they can get, can I perhaps get a little bit of something on that and convener just something on the craft fees. No, I've completely... No, but the music tuition... No, I'm just going to say we'll need to try and... That's my last question just wanting to answer. Yes, I know. Answer about music tuition. Judith, do you start with the stuff on that? Music tuition I completely agree with. I think it's an absolute minefield of things. I agree. I think it can be embarrassing for young people to have to admit to any kind of financial problems. That's right. But I think it's such a massive issue. I mean, we're still suffering cuts all over the place with, you know, kind of Saturday morning music centres. So I think that we're in a position whereby people have got to be charged for it because there's a lack of resources and everything. So I think that we do... I mean, it is a massive thing. We need to look at how we can iron it out and so we can have equality for everybody. I think, you know, it is that we're suffering a lot of cuts and then if, you know, kind of young people are suffering from these cuts, then they're having to pay like private tuition because there is no... There's nothing there for them to use. So it is then looking at kind of private tuition, which of course is going to be expensive. So I think it is an issue, but I mean, I just don't know how we would address that because it's completely off-balance everywhere you look and there's just so many problems with cuts. It's a priority. That's what it's about. Well, I would say it was a priority, but that's from being a musician and I think that could be a whole other thing of how the arts and everything can have such a massive positive impact on young people's lives. And I would like to think that this is this well. I think it will take time. Going back to your point as well about the numbers drastically dropping, I think that with any kind of art, it takes a long time to perfect that, to be the standard where you're going to be going to a conservatoire or you're going to go and study. So I think that's worth taking into consideration that the initial impact of this isn't going to show straight away in figures like that. It's going to be in seven, eight years time when kind of young people have managed to perfect their skills and they're at a higher level. So I think those figures aren't necessarily fair on kind of what's going on with time to shine. They're not going to perfect their skills if they can't afford it. No, but there are ways of doing it. I mean, certainly as a national company we do. We've got a bursary scheme, so we will never turn away anybody. There's lots of avenues there for people and with things like regional residencies and the work that's going on with time to shine. It's giving people like us a chance to go into perhaps young people that can't afford to go and do music courses, but they're getting something for free and get better at their art. We'll perfect it and we're managing to do that without them having to spend any money. Thank you. I'm just going to bring in Mark first. Just very briefly, on the music tuition. When I first entered music education in 1979 and then into the 80s, introduction of standard, grade and so on, as it was then, Scottish Examination Board exams, there was about 2,800 students who sent you papers on this, studying all grades and higher. Now we have 30,000 young people studying across SQA courses in schools. I think that speaks for itself. In terms of craft, again, I don't have the information you have there, but I know in our own institution, Shetland and Orkney, for instance, just two, I can send you again the figures on this. In terms of craft development and jewellery and wool, for instance, and small business in the creative industries, these are very important sectors for Orkney and Shetland. Again, I can send information about this from our department just to maybe, you know, enlighten some of the debate, but that's always the case. The figures that we have that Mary Wiss-Gamlin was referring to are only craft at higher education institutions, so that's obviously not the full picture, so that would be very helpful. Sorry, Kent. I just wanted to make two quick points. One of which was about just from my own experience working across different formal education settings, is the awareness of how the investment is massively different for different art forms, and it's obvious when you think about it. If I do a class of 30 youth theatre young people, I need one tutor and one room, but if I do a musician teaching tuition, piano lesson, I need one tutor and one room to one person. If I want to train 30 young people it costs 30 times the amount. It starts to be breaking it down into the specific economies of each art form and also each region and each age. It starts to show how the investment begins to feel quite thin on the ground when you're talking about a long-term development. The other point I just wanted to talk to is obviously we haven't had the figures that you're talking to about the higher education statistics, but I think with the youth art strategy with time to shine, I suppose that dialogue, I suppose it feels a wee bit more that recognition and that dialogue that we talked about at the start and responses. The youth arts industries are now at the table having those discussions as opposed to just feeding people from a voluntary basis, from a strategic interest that actually we're on a stronger footing with the time to shine strategy to connect with the social work departments, with higher education, with formal education to make those links and those pathways happen. I think that it will be about you returning to those statistics in the years to come to see the impact that's been made. Obviously I'm not sure of statistics either but one of the biggest things that I've learned because obviously I'm going from my university applications just now to art school, there's not as much places as there is to those people who apply so for 60 or 70 people there may be 200, 300 applicants I don't know if that's there or not. No, it's not. So for example when I've been told the Glasgow of Art they have 300 places per year on a generalised sense but they have 4,000 applicants that's just like a sort of generalised term. I think it will be similar for Edinburgh College of Art in other higher education institutions as well it's very competitive so it might be the idea of either raising how many that intake of the higher education facilities but at the same time they thought you were talking about earlier diluting the talent that might do that but at the same time that might sort of encourage the talent progression as well. OK, thank you. Gordon, you're a supplementary you want to re-ask I think. Just on the whole point of the figures that Mary raised it was the numbers we've got were obviously all produced prior to the time to shine strategy coming in and of course we've had the focus on colleges to more full time equivalent courses so when you actually look at the full time equivalent the numbers aren't as dramatic as Mary has pointed about to be but my other concern is we don't seem to have a lot of evidence about the higher education institutions about how they're progressing in terms of numbers that are taking up courses with higher education and I'm just wondering if you have any information on that in any view on whether there are more availability in higher education institutions than colleges. In our sector obviously in universities we are governed by the numbers from the Scottish funding council my understanding is in the last few years the only institution that has been able to see the numbers has been the University of the Highlands and Islands in the last couple of years at undergraduate level because of our new status as fully funded university but across certainly music and arts the numbers have been similar over the last few years Glasgow Edinburgh, Aberdeen in terms of music intake, UHI we've managed to expand in applied music and in some of our other courses and that will continue for another year to be steady state in terms of visual arts and digital and drama and theatre and so on and we were talking about hundreds across the sector in Scotland and I think it's fairly healthy I think we've got a pretty strong arts and culture cohort in the universities I'm confident that we have the right kind of numbers and it is competitive but then again there's a great investment in STEM subjects and while we like to lobby for our world we also have to recognise the demands of other areas of our industry and business and our economy I'm going to ask supplementary myself on that because I know Mary read out the figures which were her head count but I think that Gordon is quite right and I'd like to know your opinion about this shift in emphasis between part-time courses short courses and full-time courses and performing in terms of full-time equivalents between 2008, 9 and 12, 13 performing arts far from going down in terms of full-time equivalent has gone up theatre and dramatic arts up music history and theatre production up so there's been a shift although the head count may have decreased the actual number of hours that's actually increased so I just wondered whether or not what your views were about that shift in policy between funding a lot of short courses or part-time courses to more full-time courses Kenny? Speaking from a distant perspective awareness of the pathways that young people would take following their youth theatre experience considering going on to further education higher education and into the industry in years gone by I'm not saying this with any kind of great kind of detailed authority but with years gone by some of the character of the discussion used to be that there was a lot of one-year HNC courses which weren't of a high standard I would be working with young people on a summer project and they'd be coming to me for full-time for five weeks working on a production a youth theatre production and they would go away having had a life-changing experience and they would go into a further education course and I would meet them a little bit down the line and they'd be in two days a week on that course and they weren't getting the same quality of experience because they weren't doing it for that full-time, intense experience and so I agree I think that some of the part-time courses have streamlined throughout and I would imagine that that's going to happen further with the changes to the further education with the consolidation of the further education sector and I think that can only really be welcomed my sense is that the further education colleges and theatres that are out there have been streamlined and it's now kind of it's kind of plateauing to the right kind of sense and also there's a clear pathway on to other higher education courses and degrees but also I think that it's clear that there's more apprenticeships and graduate schemes and other models as well that it's not just that single pathway that maybe we need to capture the figures all in the future Mark, did you want to come in? I've looked at a spice briefing from this Parliament staff the sources of Scottish funding council I have read it as it's been given there are no footnotes to say we're not comparing apples with apples etc we've now had various people interpreting the statistics so can I maybe ask why we get accurate information about the number of college students taking our courses before we do come to any conclusion here because if we as a committee have not been given accurate if we're looking at part-time courses in 2008 and now looking at full-time courses in 2013 then I want to know if I'm given accurate information I don't think that was happening in accurate information so what we're looking at is two sorry about this we're looking at two tables the first table is a head count it says count, you can see that on the table 3 and on table 4 it's the full-time equivalent so while the head count as I was asking the question to Kenan McLean has dropped you were quite right in terms of reading out the accurate figures in terms of the head count as well so my figures are accurate but on page 9 it's another table but the table 3 is accurate and it didn't say what I said was the head count, you're quite right to have said that the head count has dropped but the full-time equivalent figure has gone up that's why I asked about the policy shift well it hasn't gone up, it's gone down for dance it's gone down for music history and theory, down for music performance and down for music instrument technology not by the percentages that you digest it's gone up for theatre and music history Mary, no, and I specifically read the figures that have gone up so the figures that you said were head count drops they haven't dropped by the percentages that you said in terms of the full-time equivalent which was the questions that I was asking but I wish Mr Sheridan now to answer the question that I was asking Mr Sheridan there's obviously issues about supply and demand as well in terms of some areas of the arts and culture and how things change but there has been in the last 5 years maybe more a structural change at all universities every time we have a new course now and through senates and court we have modular courses and we have exit and entrance strategies for year one or year two and year three so students, there's no such thing as a conventional student now we need to quote for lots of young people coming from school but also people of all sorts of ages and from different backgrounds so what you have now is a suite or a building blocks for people to take advantage of doing individual modules or being able to do part-time first year of university over two years or then exit and come back in and so on so I think the FTE we live with we are used to people coming in and going out of courses at different levels and so on and it also helps articulation from HNC and HND so that has been a big shift in the last 7 or 8 years and I think that can account for some of the policy changes that you are seeing in the numbers OK, thank you very much Liam McArthur I am going to start by apologising for my late arrival of the student flight delays and I think as I said during the debate on this, very much welcome the timeshine strategy and it's encouraging to hear the positive messages I think I was struck a bit by the point that came through Mark in your submission about the sustainability and the risk I suppose with two yearly reviews that as in other areas we are tempted to dig up the roots to see if the plant is growing fine to little effect and possibly potential damage to the structure we put in place Are you confident that the way the review structure has been set up that there are benchmarks along the way and that what we won't end up doing is affecting handbrake turns every two years to try and deal with specific issues that may arise I think if we need to flag up to the hubs and other organisations about integration about working closely together and really doing that and seeing that as a long term like other organisations are doing across the country since the Christic Commission thinking definitely about how we use resources To give you an example I am the vice chair of Fesh Ross which is one of the hub organisations that really led on in the management for our Highland Youth Arts Hub I think what we'd be looking to do is ensure that the manager that we appointed through the Highland Youth Arts Hub that the organisations as we move into the last of the second years that we try and retain the manager in other words that from our own resources and our own investments that we will actually maintain that and I think that the integration of organisations the like-mindedness, the idea of working together is really what we have to develop on the ground to ensure that any further investment that will naturally come to organisations will in fact support the ongoing integration and articulation and collaboration if that makes sense I mean that's helpful again something I think Kenny you mentioned the fact that what this was about was as much developing and enriching networks and connections and developing creative ways of bringing together what is probably already happening or opening up opportunities to those at the moment don't have those looking at the hub structure and I don't want to be overly hung up about that but you'll forgive me if I think that perhaps the islands are conspicuous by their absence from that hub structure one or two others mean the borders Dumfries and Galloway again are notable in not being included in that I did raise it with Fiona Hyslop during the debate about how in a sense you build those networks and develop that young person input in those areas where there isn't a hub I'm not sure I got an answer during the debate I wondered whether those at the coalface might have a view as to how you kind of reach beyond the specific regions where the hubs are based I think in some ways I think it was this is speaking to a person from my personal opinion I think in some ways it was a little unhelpful that the hubs and the strategy came out at the same time actually the hubs are a mechanism to progress a lot of the objectives but it's not the strategy and I think actually that I think we understand Youth Theatre Arts Scotland understand that implicitly because we're a sector development organisation but the Youth Arts Strategy in Great Scotland have been at pains to emphasise this is that it's not just the hubs strategy it's not just their activity it is the national youth performing arts companies but likewise it's also youth work organisations as well and social development organisations as well so I think that's quite an important thing to say initially because the next thing is very much that I'm sure that Creative Scotland and all those regions would have wanted a hub in every region and actually everybody would support that but there's a tipping point in terms of actually if you spread it so thin are you going to get the infrastructure development that you want and so I think that the level investment in those the regions that have been selected is the right level for the moment I know that there's a smaller investment in two other areas from ideas that were submitted but there aren't going to be full hubs and I was reminded about it in the submission from Creative Scotland but yeah I mean I hope that if on-going investment is secured that other regions would get a similar investment and that in the interim that actually the attention is put as I understand it is being done through the national youth performing arts companies to support work in the regions that didn't get the hub investment in particular I mean it I suppose to some extent I think Mark alluded to early the area I represent in Orkney is a very vibrant arts and cultural scene, music scene and into which young people play an absolutely integral part it's understanding better how that links with regional and national organisations that is an issue and while those that are excluded can be excluded for many reasons social reasons, economic reasons but also issues of rurality and I think it would be helpful to understand whether it's part of this strategy there's a recognition that there are many with a wide variety of talents but if we find themselves very very distant from where it is appropriate or sensible or reasonable to try and coalesce and deliver courses or whatever and therefore support for travel for accommodation even for those who aren't necessarily at the poorest end of the spectrum but for whom this is prohibitively expensive to go away for multiple weeks or a year's duration course is that something that's picked up in the strategy? I can take that one sorry we found that with us we've got a collection of workshops that we've done and one of the things that we're offering is something called Root Nios which is focusing on not only going out to hubs but also places that haven't been picked up and aren't a hub and going out and basically offering support to them so we're definitely a national company trying to pick into places that don't have any provisions at the moment and we are trying our hardest to really target those areas as well I think something that hasn't really been picked up on is about the digital platform as well I think that there's been a fantastic recognition of how powerful digital and social media and things can be and I think that's something that we're definitely working on I think a lot of the hubs are as well is having that quite powerful digital presence as well which is something that the young people use and something that anybody can access so in that way that they're still being able to tap into what's going on as well even if it is just digitally Part of the role of the young people's group with ArtsFoyce Scotland is to evaluate what's happening locally in terms of time to shine and that's not just in the hub areas but in areas where there isn't representation through the hub as well so we're very conscious of the young people as a group that we need to build those links within the areas that don't have a regional hub and make sure that the young people are working locally to raise awareness of work that's going on in those areas and also one of the things that the group are looking at is a young ambassador scheme so recruiting young people to act as ambassadors for the arts in every region across Scotland so part of their work will be to look at areas where there isn't representation of hubs and the last residential meeting that we had we did a bit of an equalities impact assessment around the group and that also then included geography and rurality came up as an issue around there in terms of representation on the group so what we're looking to do is then expand group membership to make sure we have that representation across the country Did you have something you wanted to add? Can I just pick up on the digital and the idea of our last residential the digital platform that goes live this week as far as I'm aware and it's going to be a real way to reach out to the areas that don't have hubs it's going to inform them of things that are on in their areas as well due to the cooperation between the arts organisations all over Scotland it's going to have a calendar too where you can see everything that's on in your area regarding your farts and like Alison was saying about the last residential we attended we did meet with Evaluation Support Scotland to think of ways that we can evaluate the strategies it goes on without making it seem distant from the young people so we were looking at ways of getting triggers and outcomes and it went quite well the first time Thank you I just wanted to say one of the things that we've found as a sector development organisation is that by having ongoing support and strategy we've been able to put in regular events and projects that I think is quite relevant to your question about involvement from different regions at whatever stage that they're at and whatever level of investment that they've gone so the National Festival Youth Theatre that I've mentioned before has been running for 10 years now this is we've seen youth theatres return year upon year and each year grow their own ambitions about what they do when they come to us similarly it's allowed regions who are there's a seed investment that's gone in and has helped them developments giving them a place to go to firstly they aspire to what they see and then they come and develop their own provision or there's a way for them to find out about our network organisation and how they can learn from our practitioners so I think that that's where some of the nervousness about the long term investment kind of comes from from our sector is that we want to set up the infrastructure so that it's not just about who's doing it right now but people three or four years down the line who just discover that opportunity by themselves and then can find their own way in that they can start to make that connection for developing their practice okay thank you a minister interesting point about the sustainability of the strategy we talked briefly earlier about the establishment of the two year figure that came up can I ask you generally will the structures be in place sufficiently robust by the end of that period to hopefully generate and create sustainability over the next few years because clearly this is a 10 year strategy and two years isn't sufficient to implement a 10 year strategy Kenny? I think because we've funded the links in the first instance I think that that for me is about setting up the infrastructure so that then any further investment will continue to bleed straight through, ripple out into the delivery I think that it is it's folly to think that you're going to get the start, middle and end of the ambitions of the time to change strategy in the two years instead what I think you'll start to see at the end of the two years I think what you'll start to see is the impact that it could make and also a streamlining of the ideas that can happen in each region and I suppose a celebration of the diversity of what's happening I think the hubs as an example are all set up in a slightly different way and I think what will happen at the end of the two years is that they'll all have created their own identity they'll have created their own network and infrastructure and we'll be seeing a different way of communicating a network across art form I think that's one of the things I found really exciting throughout this is that we've got a network organisation in our youth theatre art form but that doesn't exist in film and it doesn't exist in multiple other areas craft and for youth for young people that we've talked about but actually we've gone a stage beyond that with the hubs and with the youth art strategy that there's a network of networks now effectively and I think that at the end of those two years it will be ready to make that impact rather than having achieved that impact yet but it's the infrastructure that you've alluded to Thank you Matt Griffin Spoken earlier answers to questions about the increasing number of people who are now participating in art so I just wanted to ask a question around that and the balance where the balance lies in the strategy and developing audiences and appreciation of the arts as opposed to increasing the number of people who are participating just to see if there's any views on whether that balance is right because obviously without the audience then you don't really have the art A view on that Blair, any things that the arts in general do is challenge your viewers of things and it's good to challenge young people's views of the arts and the strategy does aim to do that by increasing the participation but other ways it would aim to do that is by getting peer engagement like someone might not want to do the arts but their friend does it and that would be the audience sort of idea and obviously all our families would be interested in all that sort of ideas because it is young people we are engaging in dealing with so it's very much based on them and their network who they're engaged with Yes, Mark I think answer to the previous question and also to yours Mr Griffin that if organisations like all of ours engage with young people and we embody the philosophy of time to shine engagement participation and so on within our organisations then I think it will continue as embedded also in our education system in the way that we see the world I think you're absolutely right if more people are engaged with the arts then there will be more of an audience they will ask hard questions they will want to develop their own view of the world they will want to attend galleries they want to see the world differently so if you're engaged locally in these sort of activities you're going to want to go to theatre you're going to want to go to music concerts you're going to want to go to galleries you're going to be encouraged to do that because you've been exposed to it and I think that our national companies and local companies and other organisations are not directly involved in the hubs for instance the Shetland Arts Trust they have the same philosophy, the same way of working and they will encourage people to engage as audience participants and the further you can get into rural communities and other communities who don't normally engage in the arts and culture then the greater the audience participation in the long run I think and the youth ambassadors and the champions projects within time to shine is to try and increase that awareness not just around participation but around going and attending arts performances and so on as well so having young people as Blair said to do that peer led work within their local communities and raise that awareness I'm sure we'll support some of that I also think just going back to my earlier point about the fact that the strategy isn't just for youth arts deliverers that it's also for education providers professional arts organisations as well I mentioned in our submission that we're part of a group called Culture Counts who's a research and advocacy group of cross art form cultural organisations championing the role of culture across society and specifically within Scotland and what I find that's interesting through that is that I think with the time to shine strategy it's I suppose sent something really important up the flag pole that says to people this is your future audiences and often I think that with tight budgets or arts organisations can be looking at the here and now and maybe aren't really that worried about 5-10 years down the line but actually the time to shine strategy I think has raised the the level of importance of youth arts and the recognition so that that flow through of an audience from participation into being an audience member is just the natural one that really exists out there I think the other thing I would say is that young people quite often enjoy engaging through participating and I think that they don't see it as distinct, this is a very broad statement but they don't see it as distinct as we might do when we become an old and decrepit they don't see it quite as distinct as that, they do they watch, they chat, they just do it all it's all one spectrum of participation and engagement there's not the same distinct things that we perceive when we're more embarrassed about treding the boards and we want to just go and watch it I think that's a different perception I've witnessed in young people there are if I'm right, about two dozen maybe 23 objectives across the three areas of participation, progression and provision in the strategy how far are we down the road in meeting these objectives we've got one or two already ticked off or are we halfway there or given it's a long term strategy can you give us some idea about these objectives and how many of them have already been met or on the way to being met at the moment they're under construction if I can put it that way because there are objectives in each of these categories I would just say that there's a few on there talking about being an international leader and talking about connecting with the education frameworks and there's a few in there which are clear long term objectives and actually it's great that they're in there because I think it keeps us all focused on the ambitions and the opportunity that's there but I think it would really just be early signs that we would be looking for Can I ask you about some of the specifics then the very first one in objective and participation is to establish a national young people's advisory group on the implementation and development of forward plans of time to shine so some of them have been done but some of them I agree with you are more distant but some of the other ones I'm wondering about are things like develop, work and increase access to opportunities for the youngest age group and ensure the arts are effectively represented in the national early years strategy development across all sectors I think I'm not 100% sure of this that Creative Scotland is doing is it Dark Hatchers It's engaging with early years it's quite young I think it's possibly there before but I'm not 100% sure and it's definitely aimed towards getting engagement of very young people like obviously toddlers engaging the arts so that's pretty much going ahead Time to shine isn't in isolation there's a lot of fantastic work on the arts and creativity in the early years education anyway and I think what it does is flag up we need to think across the sector and gather all the good practice and ensure good practice participation and progression progression if we can all buy into progression the idea that we move on and the young people that develop skills and knowledge and understanding and don't just keep doing the same thing over and over again and what they want to do for instance is embedded then I think that's and I think that you're right there are a number that we can already say being proactive and using technology we're advancing that we're moving into in our area it's very difficult because we have thin band rather than broad band and even that's patchy at times but we're all aware of these objectives and I think to have them as a teacher at one time there's nothing wrong with too many objectives there's things to do that's your homework for next week but being realistic as we review in the next couple of years I think it's going to be important if what has been achieved but yeah it's still early days for the hubs but we're aware of these issues and at least we have them all in black and white and up front to tackle them and to tackle them together I think One of the roles again of Youth Arts Voice Scotland is to look at these objectives and look at how they're going to be measured and evaluated and what the group are doing at the moment is working with Evaluation Support Scotland to work out how that is going to happen and also develop a logic model so that we can then easily demonstrate how some of the objectives are being met That's interesting because my next question a follow-up question was whether the timescales have now been established in order to effectively determine whether we're going to achieve all the objectives and whether it's clear who should actually deliver them Are you saying that that is actually now happening? Well certainly the group are putting together measurable outcomes that as a group they will work with in their local communities making links with the hubs to make sure that the hubs are then delivering what they're supposed to be doing locally but in terms of a timescale I don't think I'm trying to see a little bit of clarity whether the timescales have actually been set down, whether they've been established or whether or not is that still a work in progress? Work in progress Well everything's a journey but sometimes there are stops along the way I think Kate's got one that's certainly laid out engaging with all of the participants on effective evaluation and tools for evaluation and how to progress that I think these measures, one like for instance continuous trif for quality improvement that is a lifelong ambition for everybody and the more young people you take on board into the stream then you start the whole process again but I think most of us are fairly confident that the organisations we work with can address these and go a long way to meet them within the timescale or at least know where we're going once in the two years has elapsed Thank you very much Any other members, any questions at this point? Okay, thank you very much for your attendance today, it's been very helpful I know that there's one or two bits of information I think Mark, you said you were going to send to the committee, so we'd be grateful if you received that I think it's just worth mentioning that the committee will be hearing from Creative Scotland at a future date so we'll also raise some of the issues that you've raised today both in your written submissions and in your O11s today and I'm sure other things as we progress between now and the day at which Creative Scotland come before the committee so again, thank you very much for attending this morning Before we move on to our next item of business, because I just say to the committee that Chick Brody has given his apologies today, he's unable to be here due to ill health but can I welcome James Dornan to the committee for the first time so given this is your first time at the committee James, can I ask if you have any relevant registrable interests that you wish to declare? Nothing outside of my registrable interests Thank you very much Our next item is to take evidence on two affirmative instruments listed in our agenda Can I welcome to the committee for the first time Fiona McLeod, who is the acting minister for children and young people and can I also welcome her supporting officials? After we have taken evidence on the instruments we will debate the motions in the name of the minister officials are not permitted to contribute to that formal debate so therefore can I invite the minister to make some general opening remarks Minister Thank you, convener and thank you for welcoming to the committee for two months while I am the acting minister Just a few comments in opening for these two instruments In the main, these two instruments give effect in secondary legislation to procedural refinements to the children's hearing system introduced by the Children and Young People Act 2014 The primary legislative changes were proposed following the implementation of the Children's Hearing Act 2011 back in June 2013 As you would expect we monitor the act once in operation to make any refinements necessary The Children's Hearing provisions in the 2014 act were considered by this committee when that act was at stage 2 of its parliamentary passage and it was considered by the committee on 21 January last year In the main, those provisions amend the Children's Hearing Act 2011 and are to be commenced on 25 January The detail for operating children's hearings and related proceedings under the 2011 act is contained in the Children's Hearings Act 2011 Rules of Procedures in Children's Hearings Rules 2013 in shorthand the 2013 rules These instruments before you today are mainly about giving effect to consequential changes to these 2013 rules and related to secondary and related to secondary legislation However, we are also taking the opportunity in rule 7 to address an issue concerning the non-disclosure of information contained in reports prepared by a Children's Hearing for a court under section 952 of the Adoption and Children's Scotland Act 2007 I'd be happy to take any questions on the draft instruments Okay, thank you very much before moving to questions from members I have a question myself I noted when I was reading the papers for this meeting that the Children's Hearing instrument notes the consultation that has been undertaken but on the other instrument says that no consultation was undertaken and I was wondering whether in the first one where you undertook a consultation were there any issues that were raised and what were they and secondly on the one on secure accommodation why no consultation was undertaken Can I at this point convener turn to my officials because it's not something I'm completely up to date with yet Okay So on the consultation on the two consultations Yeah, I think on the secure instrument we felt that it was such a minor and technical change that we felt that consultation wasn't really required because it was really to implement a provision which was contained in the 2014 act How normal is it that you don't undertake consultations on these changes these sort of changes My experience if it's of a technical nature my experience is we haven't undertaken a consultation at all Can I be clear then ministers what is exactly the secure accommodation one does just so we're clear about the technical in nature it was The purpose of the amendment to this regulation is as a result of exos which is the interim compulsory supervision orders and they're made under section 95 where there's an urgent necessity so this amendment to this regulation was needed to reflect a change in the 2013 secure regulations which if I remember had already been consulted on So the original regulations were consulted on In terms of the children's hearing one where there was a consultation that was undertaken what issues were raised from that consultation There were no major issues that were raised at all The proposals in the 2014 act were the subject of consultation with relevant stakeholders like SCRA children's hearing in Scotland we also consulted those two bodies in relation to the provisions in the amendment rules at the end of the day we took on board any comments that those organisations made and those views are reflected in the amendment regulations It's just a suggestion but it might be helpful in future if you do a consultation and there are no major issues but you've adopted or taken on board the issues that were raised to actually say that in the papers because it doesn't say anything just as a consultation was undertaken and then is silent so I just think it might be helpful to committee members at least to others to point out that that has taken place Mary Scanlon I would also find it helpful if there was a little bit less gobbledygook and I'm afraid I read this two or three times last night and I wasn't on the committee when the bill was passed so I don't have that sort of framework of reference but I haven't actually found it totally helpful this morning that I understand in my own mind what's happening on children being placed in secure accommodation so I wonder, convener, can I just ask a minister in her own words for the sake of those of us that weren't on the committee during the passing of the bill can she just put it in her own words and tell us what this means sorry, you're asking specifically about the children's hearing one just the children's hearing one please, thank you minister, the children's hearing not the secure accommodation secure accommodation, sorry so in the secure accommodation regulations which one is it, Mary, you're asking about the children's hearing or the secure accommodation it actually mentions children's hearing as well I'm looking at this explanatory note on page 13 children's hearing on which the grounds to require the principal reporter to arrange an accord and study of 952 of the 2011 act must take place within 72 hours of the child being placed in secure accommodation so it relates to children's hearings but it's the one about secure accommodation it's the secure accommodation one minister that Mary's asking for some that's what I mean about the gobbledygook plain English, explanatory note plain English would be very helpful, thank you so the regulation on the secure accommodation amendment regulations regulation 8 is a consequence of section 86 of the 2014 act and it's about interim compulsory supervision orders being able to be made when a child is unable to attend a hearing but is not excused from attending the hearing so this is about when it is necessary to make a compulsory order in an urgent situation but perhaps Liz could tell me it's a consequence of an act that isn't very helpful when I wasn't hearing I don't know about the act I just want this in plain English to know what I'm agreeing to section 86 of the children's young people act introduced some amendments to deal with the situation where a child can't attend a grounds hearing but the children's hearing considers that because of the nature of the child's circumstances on that day because it's a matter of urgency they require to make an interim compulsory supervision order before this change was made there was no power for a children's hearing to make an interim compulsory supervision order to deal with those urgent circumstances where a child is not able to attend the hearing so the change that the secure accommodation Scotland amendment regulations are making is just purely in consequence of that new power being given to a children's hearing to make an interim compulsory supervision order so where a children's hearing makes an interim compulsory supervision order under this new power in this urgent circumstance what this amendment in the amendment regulations says is that the children's hearing where the interim compulsory supervision order is made and a children's hearing is required to take place following that that children's hearing has to take place within 72 hours of the interim order having been made so it's purely to put the amendment that you're considering today is purely to put that 72 hour timescale on the children's hearing following the making of the interim order I think that was very helpful actually I think that has clarified more than what we had certainly but a little bit less gobbry future convener would be even more helpful I'm sure the Plain English Society I'm right behind you there Thank you As hard as possible to put it in plain English these are regulations consequential to enact therefore there is technicalities that we have to ensure are there There are explanatory notes which would be helpful if they were in plain English but I do understand there are technicalities Okay, but that was very helpful Thank you for minister and officials for those explanations and those answers If there are no other questions at this stage can I move on to agenda item 5 As indicated we now move to the formal debate on the instruments can I invite the minister to speak and move motion S4M12017 Thank you convener I think all explanation has been given so I would move that the committee approve the Children's Hearing Scotland Act 2011 rules of procedure in children's hearings amendment rules 2015 Thank you minister any contributions from members stage I presume you don't need to respond Thank you Can I put the question there for the motion S4M12017 be agreed to? Are we all agreed? We are agreed Thank you very much Can I now invite the minister to speak to and move motion S4M12018 Again I think all explanation has been given so I would move that the committee approve the secure accommodation Scotland amendment regulations 2015 Thank you any contributions from members Nope Can I put the question there for that motion S4M12018 be agreed to? Are we all agreed? We are agreed Thank you minister and thank you officials for coming along this morning Our next committee meeting will be on the 27th of January next week we have an informal visit to meet with BSL users in connection with the scrutiny of the BSL Scotland bill and therefore after that I close the meeting