 and you really gotta find out like what you love and who you are, right? And find your identity because your identity for the previous five years of learning is just all trading and all just frustration and being too hard on yourself. God damn, bro, God damn, that was good. What's going on guys? We're back with another episode of the After Hours podcast. Today, we have a very special guest. We have Jack Kellogg, who is super notorious all over Twitter, everyone knows who he is. So thank you so much, Jack, for coming on. We are super excited to have you. Yeah, thanks for having me on, boys. Let's do it up. Yeah, for real. That's hilarious. Oh yeah, so before we start, I have my drink. Jack has his drink. James has his drink. So if you guys don't have a drink, pause the video, grab a drink, and let's get started. After Hours for a reason, right? That's it. Exactly. So Jack, you've made verified $11 million trading, which is an unbelievable amount of money. It's an obscene amount of money, and it's an incredible amount of money. But a lot of people don't know that you were trading for a while. So can you kind of walk us through how you started trading and your whole journey? Yeah, I'll try to go over it kind of quickly here, just some key points. I started in 2017 in January. I was at the gym and my friend, he was like, yeah, I'm doing some penny stock day trading, learning from like Tim Sykes or whatever. And I was like, oh, go home and check it out. Cause I wanted to do something with the 10,000 that I had saved up from valet. So I went home, watched a few Tim Sykes videos, and then really just scoured the internet, chat with traders, everything, watched all the YouTube content hours for free, and basically started trading in January. Didn't go well. Was a consistent loser for like 20 months. But I met one of my good friends, Da Master Mateo, who taught me OTCs. And we started trading OTCs in 2018. And at the end of 2018, I started finding consistent profitability. In September was my first good month. And after losing probably like 15 grand, I turned a profit of 10,000 in September. And then from there, it was just steadily 10 to 15K for the next year or so. And then when COVID happened, I just started trading bigger and making bigger returns and averaging somewhere around 50K per month for six months maybe. And then after that, I started sizing up even more. And my first big, big trade was CYDY in June of 2020, which was a perfect OTC breakout in first red day. And I made like 80,000 on it that day. And then from there, I started to learn how to trade NASDAQs and NASDAQs, it's still learning them. They're still kind of tough, but when the AMCs or the BBYs come around, I really put my foot to the pedal on those because those are the best opportunities. In my opinion, there's no crazy low flow action. And with the thick floats, you have a very clear stop. And with the low floats, I don't like to trade them. They're only good for like two, five, 10, 15, 20K max. And if you go bigger size than that, potentially you could just fuck yourself over really bad unlike the thick floats. That makes a lot of sense. How old are you by the way? I'm 25. 25? Damn, he's young. That's awesome. Crazy, because when we first started talking, how old were you when I first met you? Like maybe like 22? No, I think younger, dude. I think I was like 20, 21 when we first started talking. That's crazy. Yeah. And you said you were doing valet before? Yeah, that's how I saved up my cash through valet driving. I did valet for like four years. When I was 16. What's the coolest car that you ever valet? I knew that was gonna be cool. I'd probably say McLaren. Do you ever see like any sketchy stuff happening where like the valet drivers would like rip the cars around or anything like that or was it mostly like a normal thing? I mean, I was guilty of that a few times. I mean, something like that. I remember this one time this guy came in with like a brand new BMW six speed M3. And he was like, yeah, bro, it's a lease. Just rip it around, have some fun. I was like, word and I ripped it around the city. And yeah, a few of my other buddies took some cars on the highway and shit, but we played it safe. I've always assumed that they did that, but to kind of get it verified is a scary thing. Yeah. That's funny. So, Jack, I have a question for you. So you kind of, I feel like we know that you've had a long journey, but at the same time, I feel like once you found that consistency, you kind of got big like fairly quickly. How did you go about scaling your size? Were you like compounding? Like were you looking at your account saying like I'm risking a percent into this? Or was it all just more like confidence and feel? I would say a lot of it is just waiting for like that net zero moment where it's how much liquidity is going to be in this next one minute candle and how much liquidity can I take safely? And if it does go in your direction and you put in a large majority of your, like one thing that I do believe in too is like separating your accounts so you don't have all your money in one account. So if something ever crazy were to happen, you just lose what you had in that account, right? So after I made my first 100,000, I diversified my money into three different accounts. I had one account with 40, one account with 30, one account with 10 or 20, whatever, and then paid taxes and all the accounts went down a little bit more because of taxes. But I was really just looking for that net zero moment and that where you can strike and take most of the liquidity or the fills in a certain candle. And also there's something else that I like to look for which is adding the winners. So you start in small, they get a feel for it. And then once it goes in your favor, then you also can add to your position and move your stop down to break even. And those are really like the trades that I'm looking for. Like I said, I don't like trading those low floats. I just like trading a small position and holding for a conviction type trade versus the stocks, the OTCs and the bigger floats. You really can size into them and keeping that stop very tight and make sure you're stopping out at an area where if it gets above it, then you don't want to become part of the trade anymore because it's not in the same, it's not the same conviction if it gets over a certain price, right? So it's just really looking for that moment. How big of a learning curve was it for you? Like for people in general or for you even for like sizing from OTCs to like NASDAQ stocks because it's weird for you to like look at an OTC stock and be like, I can use like hundreds of thousands of shares versus like changing your mind and being like a NASDAQ maybe using 20,000 or something like that. Yeah, I would just say it's all through feel, right? You really don't know how the, you're P and I was going to look until you're in the trade, right? So just by taking, I think I've probably taken like 6,000 trades in my career now and you trade all different types of sectors, all different types of floats, all different types of times a day. And through that, you can kind of almost like right away in a trade, like I usually know if I'm right or wrong in my gut within the first like five, 10, 15 minutes of trading it. And if I just, if I feel like it's off, I'll just try to exit my position for as close to break even as possible. And the same thing with NASDAQ, it's just the OTCs made a lot of sense and the NASDAQs you learn which ones work, which ones don't really quick because I've gotten into a few situations where you just blink and you're like, Holy shit, I'm already down this much. Holy shit, I'm already down this much. And it's just like those are the ones I don't really want to be a part of anymore or at least I try to avoid. Yeah, so you kind of talked about like growing exponentially in COVID and kind of like finding your footing. Would you say mostly it was OTC breakout that really kind of grew your account exponentially or was it just like other patterns in OTC too? Yeah, I would say the main thing, the main three are probably just OTC breakouts was definitely the first one that I started with or just OTC gappers, which I learned from Connor just NASDAQ gappers as well, where you're just kind of buying at the closing price and selling into the next day and to hopefully a gap up in spike. Panic dip buys were a stock just panics at the open, like for example, like SHMP when it topped at like a dollar it panicked down to 50 cents within 15 minutes. And that was a great buying opportunity where you can buy it at 50 and sell it at 60, 70, 75 with a very tight stop loss of 50 cents. So if you're getting in at 51, 52, 53 selling it at 70, risking 50, it's a great risk to reward trade. And yeah, first green days after a stock fades for a while I don't trade these on NASDAQs because whenever a stock usually pops after it's gone on a big round it usually just has massive selling pressure. But with OTCs, it's a bit more clean where people like to kind of buy it back up after it tanks. This is a SHMP here. I'm talking about the run in 2019. 2019. Yeah, that day. That day right here. So these are the type of setups that you're looking at. Yeah, this was the ticker that really, really grew me. I started thinking, I think I started buying it at like five cents and probably sold it at like seven to 10 then you rebuy it at 10 cents, sell it at 20 rebuy it at 20 cents, sell it at 40 and just really just trading it the entire way up. Yeah, the first day I bought it was perfect like double top breakout over five cents sold it the next day at seven, eight, nine, whatever then bought it again at 10, sold it at 18 then bought it again at 30 and sold it at like 50 or 60. That's wild. That's a crazy chart. When you're looking at these like how big does volume kind of play a part? Like volume plays like a pretty big part when you're looking at these types of setups. Yeah, the more volume the better. And I think it's kind of the same thing with NASDAQs and my favorite charts are the ones where they're doing no volume and it's a flat line and it has a spike and then it trades a relative high relative volume for an entire month or two and then kind of breaks over that price. Like you can even see it right now like BBAI and SOUN, you can see that they don't really trade, they didn't trade much volume before the start of the year but after this year has gone on you can see that they're trading 10 to 20 million shares pretty consistently. And this is a stock that I'm personally watching and like into the end of the year if it can hold up this two area and start breaking over like three, four, five this could potentially be like a COVID type runner if there's enough gas in the market and AI can recover. Yeah, I've been looking at this one too. I already had like kind of like a line drawn like up in this year for whatever reason. So yeah, no, that's super interesting. I think Alex had a question. Yeah, I was going to say you mentioned, Jack that you're looking for these ideal setups not the low flow, what you're looking for high volume, high conviction setups where you know that you can size it and you're not going to be, you're not going to, if you have enough stock essentially your slippage is going to push the stock up or down a certain way. So you don't want to deal with that. My most recent memory of that perfect opportunity is probably bed, bath and beyond, right? That's a sticker that I made a lot of money on and I know that you made a lot of money on it. So can you kind of maybe explain what you saw in bed, bath and beyond on the short and then now what you're seeing kind of on the long setup with the Q on it? Yeah, for sure. If you want to pull up that chart, Harry. Yeah. Yeah, you zoom in there to the first run in August right there. Yeah, that one. Yeah, so that was, that's when this, I didn't really even trade it when it went to 50 or whatever because AMC and GME were better opportunities. But when this popped up last year, I ended up trading it and I was in Greece during the time so I missed the breakout over 10 to 12 but it was pretty crystal clear when you see like the wicking action to the downside and had a nice breakout over 12. I probably would have sold it at like 14, 15, 16 something like that and missed out on like the crazy move but after it got super extended I was looking at this for a short and I didn't trade it the day that it topped with the huge volume but the next day when it gapped up I thought that was a perfect opportunity to get short and I ended up taking, I don't know, I was in Greece and I had like a few things to do so I didn't stick around for the entire day but I positioned myself with probably like 50,000 shares short probably from like 27, 28 after it peaked out at 30 and it just, it didn't end up fading. Like it had a few chances where it'd go down and then it came back, went down, came back, went down but I still put myself in a position in case this topped at 27, 28 and then halted all the way down to 20 bucks, 18 bucks and that would have been a massive trade for me keeping my risk within a break-even spectrum and then just a bad news hit and this thing got fucking crushed down to $8 and so I really missed that setup actually my best trade on this was the long after it came all the way down and I think I longed it from like 11 to 10 or 11 to like 14 with like 30,000 shares or something on the bounce and that was a good trade for me. I missed a short on it because I was long and I didn't flip my bias quick enough on that trade but that really opened my eyes up to BBBY because of being able to execute good position sizes with tight stop losses and then if you wanna go into this year, yeah so I was looking at this stock and I started buying this one, I did a pretty good job I bought it at like 170 just seeing that it was down so much and I was kind of just thinking that we could see some of these bankruptcy stocks run it's something that Roland Wolff talks about actually is once these stocks come out with bankruptcy news and they get crushed, there's often like a big bounce so we saw it with PRTQ, PRTYQ which was like a 20 cent stock that ran to like 60 cents This one is Party City, right? Yeah, Party City, they were on OTC now I think PRTY was when it ran, yeah anyway, I saw that one run so then I said, oh, BBBY probably has a decent chance to run, so I bought it, yeah that first run at like a buck 70 before the short so yeah, I bought it in there on the first or second day after they had earnings and I swung it overnight and I think I sold it at like 250 or 275 or something and I left a ton of money on the table obviously it went all the way up to six and then I started getting short bias on the top day not the day that it faded but the day that it traded around four bucks and I had a short position on it, quite large but it kept holding the green to red area so I ended up downsizing my position for a small loss and then I bought it and I ended up selling it at like five or 550 and I captured the end of the squeeze so I took a good majority on the long side and then getting back to Alex's question on the short side when this bankruptcy piece of shit stock has ran from 150 up to six with four perfect days with increasing volume that's exactly what I like to see for the big Larry setup where it's trading massive volume every day it trades more volume every day there's more range expansion to the upside and you're eventually gonna get that moment where it comes in hard and that's exactly what happened the big red day down from five to 350 so I got short in the pre-market after it failed to squeeze red to green and then added at the open and just started to risk the $5 level getting in with probably like a 470, 475 entry risking about 25 cents and then as it started to go down kind of add a little bit and move your stop down to 475, 480 and covering it down into the mid threes and then reshorting it the bounce up to I think it was up to like 450, 470 or something it was a perfect midday bounce which offered amazing opportunities to get short again and then covering it into the covering it into the afternoon fade and I took a little bit overnight on the short side and I gave back a good majority when I went green the next day which was unfortunate but that's how I traded it that run and then the next run was when it squeezed up like crazy off the $3 area and squeezed all the shorts out then they did a toxic offering in the after hours and that's when I knew that Alex did really well on it that next day shorting it in the pre-market the thing just got absolutely smoked the next day and just faded every single day since but that's not really my- It was so funny because on that first run that you were talking about Jack when it went to like five, I remember trading it and I remember that it was just kind of testing five coming back down to 490, testing five coming back to 490, testing five, coming back down and I was like, wait a second like this is kind of looking a little bit sketchy and then like you said it kind of had that afternoon fade where it just collapsed, right? And that was really awesome but that day where it went from three to six or seven and it squeezed out all the shorts I was like, wow, this is like amazing like I wasn't caught in it I didn't trade it like this is setting up for like the biggest massive trade ever and the market closed and I got like DoorDash I got like some Gyros or some shit I was sitting in my living room watching TV and I checked my phone, I checked the quote and I saw that I went from seven to four and I'm like, oh my God I ran upstairs to my office, ran upstairs sure the shit out of it around like, I think it bounced like five I covered around like four and then that next morning is when they had that toxic offering where it kind of just collapsed and now looking back on hindsight I think that day that the collapse day in pre-market I must have shorted like 200, 300,000 shares some obscene number and I was like, you know what? This is amazing I locked in like 200,000 on the way down and then it bounced like 50% at the open reshored it and now looking back I'm just like, God damn like why didn't I just hold that shit dude? It's crazy because I think the stock closed around like 290 or $3 that day and every single day since it was just losing 10% a day 10% a day, 10% a day, 10% a day and it's just, it's just crazy because the amount of volume that this stock traded was obscene it was an obscene amount of volume that I traded and the fact that they kind of trapped so many longs on this stock is something that I don't think I've seen for a very long time That's crazy Jack, do you when you're looking at these stocks on the like long side, for example how do you deal with like cause you trade some of the sector crazes and some of like the big runners and all that how do you deal with like targets? Like how do you deal with like you have so much size and you're long this thing and like, you know, when you're long obviously you don't know how high it can go how do you go about that? Especially because you trade these kinds of crazy runners and all that it depends I either do two, two sizing options I either do a small position where I'm willing to put in 10, 20, 30 grand and with those positions I just let them ride for however long that's usually on the lower liquidity setups and usually on those setups like I just I get too greedy and sometimes they go up a bunch and then I'll end up only selling them for like a smaller profits that's something like I ride it up like 100, 200% and then I sell it for like a 70% gain after it turns or something when I am sizing into it I only like to size into the liquid ones like BBBY and those ones I'm quicker to sell because sometimes you wake up and you're up like 50,000 on like a sketchy long and you're like, okay, this is good but with like I said the low float ones or the lower market cap ones I still trade those and those ones are just wild because to make hundreds of percent on those like you have to sit through like massive pullbacks and you don't know like if that massive pullback is gonna get a bid and continue higher or if that's actually the top Yeah, you had a good trade on the Miegel, didn't you? Like this one right here? Yeah, yeah, I had a good one on that I bought that one at like a buck 50 and I think I sold it at near like four or something and that was China sympathy, right? Yep, China sympathy after top Yeah, basically whenever there's a crazy, crazy mover in the market like there's always gonna be some sympathy play and depending on how crazy the move is the, that's how crazy the sympathy runs will be, you know and when tops up 4,000% you gotta imagine that some other Chinese piece of shit stock will get some momentum. Yeah. Did it take you a while to get used to swinging these things like long or short? Was it easy for you to adjust to that and adapt or did that take a while for you to get used to? It takes a while I think that with learning like the swing trading you need more conviction because there's a lot less, there's a lot more opportunities like exit your position for a loss or a win or whatever it is but you really need to have like this you're almost too convicted on swing trades, right? And that's why a lot of people lose a lot of money or make a lot of money on swing trades, swing trades because they're so convicted in their idea that if it goes against them or if it starts to work for them they'll just keep holding, right? They'll keep holding and I think with swing trading it's really about really trying to find that one trade where it's just you have the right size you have the right conviction and you don't drink too much Kool-Aid and you end up selling it at a good price and I get a few of those trades per year but for the most part I'm just chopping up and down like I'll lose small or lose a decent on one win small or win decent on another and it's really that one trade and for me that this year that trade was GFAI I think I bought it around 20 cents and sold it up to near like 80 cents or something and there's maybe 60 cents but I was really in I was really right there for it to if it got up to like a buck or two like it would have been like biggest gain ever like it just needed one more day of push and I've been in so many of those situations where it's just like just give me one more day and then it tops. Which one was it GFAI? Yeah, it's before they did their reverse split and it's I don't trade it anymore cause it's a low flow piece of shit now but it used to be like a thick floater or kind of thick but yeah, I started buying it to the left of your arrow. I think, no. Yeah, right there I started buying it in that area that's just because AI was high and literally it's just so simple. It was cheap and it had AI in the ticker. I was like, all right, good enough for me. So I bought it at like 20 cents and on that chart I bought it at like seven and I sold it up near the top on the top candle up near 2020-22ish. In the pre-market it was up near 75 cents and then they came out with the reverse split news and it just fucking tanked. I remember that actually, yeah. So sad. I was so close. I had like 500,000 shares or something. Holy shit. So we're breakouts a lot harder to come by in 2022 and if so, was it easier for you to get your confidence back in 23 now that things are like really starting to really follow through? Yeah, in 2022 really it was the only good setups that I saw all year for like big size, big trades were like IMPP and HUSA and like that oil sector run in March. That was my best month by far. And then the rest of the year was me just trying not to blow up on the China pumps whereas it was either like a huge win or a huge loss on those liquidation plays. And that's kind of what I did all last year. And it's just so stressful, man. Those plays, you blink and you're down like 50% or you blink and you're at 50% like it's super high risk, super high reward. And I just started to learn like how to trade those and breakouts. I didn't even trade breakouts at all in 2022 because we're in a bear market, breakouts are not gonna work. Any breakout that attempts is gonna stuff. And that's exactly what happened like on the Tesla situation where I remember Tesla last year, it was trying to like set up like a nice breakout around 300 and it broke out over the level and it was like on a CPI day. And then it came back down and closed really weak. And then from there, it went from 300 to $100. And it's just almost like the opposite of like a bull market like on a bull market on a breakdown, that's where you wanna buy because it's gonna get saved because we're in a bull market. Yeah, that Tesla kind of like that breakout over 300. Yeah, that's the exact thing I'm talking about there. And it just came all the way back in. So it's just like the opposite of in the bear markets is you wanna short the breakouts. Absolutely, yeah. Did that hurt your confidence? Was it hard for you to like continue buying stocks as like breakouts just weren't freaking working and like coming into this year, were you able to like hop back into it or was it tough at first? I was able to hop back into it. I don't really, I think the stock that like got my tingly census started up again on the longs was seeing COSM. I didn't participate in that one but it ran from like 10 cents to a dollar before they did the reverse split and all that shit, of course. And just seeing like how well that one played out in December and knowing that in January and February is usually the hottest month for these penny stocks. That's why I'm willing to give it a chance to go long. Like even right now, like I don't really see too many potential like big breakouts. Like I said, I'm keeping an eye on the AI sector. I'm keeping an eye on Carvana. I'm keeping an eye on stuff like that where just stuff that potentially could get hot. Yeah, 100%. When you're going along some of these stuff how often does a catalyst matter? Like if you don't really see an upcoming catalyst would you shy away from a breakout or are you like, oh, it has a good pattern. It has a good, you know, setup. I might as well give it a try. Or are you trying to think like, okay, you know it's a sector play. So like I know that this is gonna go up type of deal. Yeah, I don't really look at catalyst at all. I think that's like the least important thing to me. The most important thing to me is volume. The second most important thing to me is the chart structure and the third most important thing to me is the dilution and then the least important thing is the catalyst. Cause I find that a lot of the times if it's just if it's in the right space, if it has the right price if it has the right volume like it's gonna run and I don't really like analyzing news because I don't know what's gonna be good I don't know what's gonna be bad. So like the amount of PRs that I've read since I started my career is probably zero. Never read one. Yeah. That's why it is. So, Jack, you make all this money trading but where do you park it, right? You can't have all your money in a trading council. No. Where do you, okay, you have all this extra money laying around after taxes, whatever it is. How do you invest your money outside of the stock market? Do you put it into real estate? Do you put it into indexes? Do you buy cars? Do you buy watches? What do you do to kind of diversify your income outside of trading so that one day if you decide, hey, I don't want to trade anymore that you could just chill out. Yeah, that's a good question. For me, that's also what 2022 was because just coming into even 2021, like my biggest period was December of 2020 through February of 2021. That was like almost half my profits. Like that was like $5 million in those three months. And it was just like, I don't know what to do. I've never had this money. My family's never had this kind of money. I don't have anyone to go to. Don't like have too many people to ask. So it was just through trial and error. And in 2021, like the first thing that I did was I gifted my parents 100,000 cash. And then after that, I bought like, I bought my first Rolex and I think May I bought my first Rolex and I bought a car. But that was really just like buying things that were for fun, I guess. Even like the Rolex, like I didn't get retail, like I bought on the secondary market. So I didn't really know too much about like the Rolexes and shit like that till now. And then last year I tried to buy some stocks on the dips and they kept dipping, I'll tell you that. So I lost a couple of hundred thousand doing that. But now I'm in a comfortable situation where I've diversified my money. Like I understand like the types of money that you want to put into certain things, right? So the majority of my money right now is in just a savings account because that's how I sleep at night. Just earning 4% per year on a few million dollars isn't bad. And then what else I do is I have some money in bonds, two year, five year, 10 year bonds, almost a million into that. And that also pays me per quarter. And then I've put some money into certain stocks that I like. I've made a portfolio. I have some dividend stocks. I have stocks that I like like Google that I believe in. I use Google all the time. I have some other like cybersecurity stuff and stocks that I've done some research in. I have a watch collection now, four watches. I have, I have two day dates, one GMT and I bought my girlfriend a day just three of them or two of the day dates I both got for a retail price or three of the watches I got for retail. And the return on them right now according to Chrono24 is I'm up about like 27% on my portfolio. It's not great compared to like some of the other watch enthusiasts who get, who are up like 100% on some, but I'm trying to build my reputation with my jeweler to eventually get the really sought after ones. But I got a pretty good one. I got the rose gold and olive dial day date, which is a pretty sought after one. I think it's like top five. Has about like a 40% return right now. It's, it peaked out at like 100K during the bubble. It's backed out near about like 60K worth, 40K entry. So I got that one and a few others that are not as good. Do you have any real estate or any, or have you been interested in that? Or you're just like, you know what? Let me just stick to treasuries or... Yeah, he just did a flip with, he just did a flip actually. Oh yeah? Yeah, I have a company that I work with that one of my friends introduced me to and we flip real estate and I'm getting into it. I have some money invested, but I'm going to do some joint ventures. And basically like their strategy is they just cold call and they try to get people who just like can't afford their houses to sell way under market value that are like crappy houses. Like you're looking at people who, you're looking at only like houses like 200,000, 100,000 trying to get them for like, you know, 30, 40% off and then putting money into them, renovating them and then reselling them for potentially like good profits like maybe 20, 30%. So I'm getting into that too. That's pretty good. What percentage would you say is treasuries, savings and like Google or whatever other stocks you have? Yeah, so I did a pie chart like a couple of months ago. I have, I think it's over 50% of my money in savings accounts. I trade with 20% of my money through three different brokerages. I have, I think 10 or 15% in bonds. I have a couple of percent in watches, couple of percent in real estate, a couple of percent in cars. And I have, I think maybe like five to 10% of money into stocks. Yeah, it's always interesting. It's my biggest question for people is how they diversify outside the market because people think that, okay, you make all this money trading stocks, you're just gonna keep trading and trading and keep growing your account and account. That's great. But like, you also want to set up like a doomsday fund just in case something happens. But what I really like that you said is you only keep 20% of your money in your accounts, which I think is great because a lot of people think that they should be keeping all their money in their account at all times. And I can guarantee that if you start trading in 2020 and you had a million dollar account in 2021, that shit is probably 50K right now. Whereas if you had a million there, you pulled out 500, put it into stocks, treasuries, whatever it is, you almost saved yourself from catastrophes. So I really like that you're doing that. And I think a lot of you- Absolutely. Jack, you, so you diversified, but do you ever see a point in your life where you're not actively like trading as much? Like, would you rather at some point get into more swing trading where you're less hands-on? Or is this something you kind of see yourself being like around for the rest of your life? Well, what I tell my friends is like, I want to retire when I'm 30, but it's just difficult because like I love trading. I know you guys obviously love trading. And it's tough to get away. Like I do a lot of traveling now. Like I have a lot of other like hobbies compared to when I first started. It was like only trading, only trading. So then just figuring myself out and growing. And also like, I think health, your health is the most important part of your entire life, like your health. So really just learning about health and investing in your own health is a great thing to do. Yeah, but with trading like days after like seeing like what happened with top and like that day I was probably, I was sure I think like a bunch of size from like 680 and just like getting squeezed on that thing. It's just like, I don't want to trade anymore after trading that shit. I'm sure Alex can agree. But like days after that, I'm just like, fuck this shit. Like I've already made it. I don't need to do this shit anymore. And then I'm still grinding kind of out of that, you know, tough couple of days that the market was, but it just reiterates the point of like the stocks that I like to trade. And it's just a good lesson overall. But with the, with trading, I don't know how long it's going to go. Like right now I'm kind of doing the Clover thing with a few of my friends, which is fun. Like just teaching people and stuff, but with the actual like day trading, I'd like to be done latest like 2030 and just focus on having a family and focus, you know, live a simple life, have a farm, stuff like that, not really do anything. Let investments pay for your lifestyle and focus on growing a family. You know, those tough days in the market are, they're something else, man. They're really something else because you can't ever explain to someone, hey, I lost 400,000, 100,000, 200,000 million dollars on one day, they're gonna use stupid fuck. So I wanted to ask you, when those bad days come along, which they come along for everyone, how do you deal with stress? How do you decompress from stress? And do you have any tips for other people that maybe stress how they could, you know, improve that? Yeah, it was a big problem of mine in 2019 and 2020 and 2021, because I just put so much pressure on myself to do well, which also I think helped grow me into the trader that I am today, where like if I had a loss, like just going to bed, thinking about it all day, like how did I fuck this up? And just like going over when I clicked the button a million times, like you fuck this up so bad. And it was just like fuck, fuck, fuck all this shit and I would be pissed the entire day and I'd be so stressed out. And I got into this like habitual burnout, to be honest, where I would just feel like shit all the time, zero energy, zero energy to do anything, like lost like a lot of friends, like my girlfriend was probably pretty fed up with me, like my parents, everyone, just because like I was so obsessed with trading and I was so stressed out all the time that I put that bad energy onto them, right? And that's like been a big thing in mind ever since I had that, you know, huge three months and where I really made enough money to have freedom and to kind of do things that I want to do. And for me, like nowadays, you know, I do meditation with a coach, like I do like a yoga flow. I go for walks every single day at 11 to get outside, breathe fresh air. And I would say like right now, like my schedule, I make sure to go fishing one time per week. I make sure if I'm trading at the setup behind me, I make sure to get off the desk 11 or 12 max and go for a walk, come back at like three. I make sure to laugh, right? I didn't laugh at all for three years and I didn't have any fun. I make sure to have fun. I make sure to go on trips and make sure to eat good food, eat healthy food, spend time with people that I love and good quality time and really just have fun and laugh things off, right? Because... So you're just trying to not think about the market. You want to kind of get away from the market and focus on life, love and relationships. I know that you said that it's kind of draining and daunting to kind of bring that stress to your family and stuff like that because that's something that happens to me is, you know, whenever I have a bad day, my girlfriend understands she tries to help me but like nothing she says could help me. My parents try to help me, nothing they could say could help me. So when you're in that toxic mindset where you are just like a cancer essentially to everyone around you because of your, how miserable you feel, how much you feel like your failure, how much you feel like you don't accomplish things, how do you push past that and bring that positive energy not only to you or to the people around you because, I mean, bro, I've been there. I've been there so many times and at least it's something that I still struggle with so I want to know how like other people are able to combat that as well. Yeah, I would say just through like doing it so many times just like being in like that toxic mindset, it only adds more toxicity to my day. And I've been kind of like trading myself just to change or push through almost whereas like it was so hard to break that toxicity. And just no matter what I did, like I just couldn't stop being negative. But through, I mean, I hang out with one of my friends, Ben, shout out to him. He lives here in New Hampshire with me and like the kid's laughing all the time. Like he's always laughing, always making jokes and that's kind of almost spread onto me where like you just got to like make a joke about it, man. You just got to like just laugh. Like you just got to like kind of let it out of you. But at first, the first thing you have to do though is pause and think about it. Because if you just brush it away without taking that moment to, it's almost like when you stand up for like the national anthem, like you do it, you get done and then you move on to like the fun game or whatever it is. And that's what I do. I like that. Something I really admire about you is that you're very open and honest about this. I think a lot of people think like, oh, this guy's made a lot of money. He can't have any issues. He can't be depressed or sad or angry or whatever. So I think it's really just impressive that you're even able to kind of say these things. Was it something that you thought was even gonna happen? Like when you made like your chunk of money and you're looking at it on, your verified profits and you're thinking like, I made this much money, like how could I be upset? Like did you think before that that was even gonna be a possibility where you like, wow, once I make the money I'm gonna be super happy? Oh yeah, that's what everybody thinks, right? That's where everyone gets into it. They're like, oh, I'm just gonna make this money and every problem that I ever had is gonna go away. But that's actually opposite. Like every problem that you're gonna have just gets amplified. And I think that after that, like it's just so much work then it's gonna take like you another like year or two really to like, that's, I'm finally at a place that I'm like super happy like this every year now like 2022 was the best year of my life. This next year that I'm living right now this is even a better year. And like 2021 when I was the most wealthy, like that was probably one of the worst years of my life. Just because I had all this money, I didn't know what to do with it. I thought there would be a golden rainbow at the end but the truth is like you have to keep digging and work and learn how to, you have to learn what to do with your money. You have to learn like how you wanna have fun. Or you have all these opportunities to do all these certain things. And you really gotta find out like what you love and who you are, right? And find your identity because your identity for the previous five years of learning is just all trading and all just frustration and being too hard on yourself. Yeah. How's it going to end today? God damn, bro. God damn. That was good. I felt that one, dude. Holy shit, holy shit. Bro, I've just been listening to you preach just like. I know. Like yeah, like you're preaching to the choir here, man. Yeah. So yeah, I mean I was gonna go over like your BVBY trade but like it's pretty hard to like top that. I know dude, I still feel that dude, oh my God. Dude, I wanna do this like with you every week. Oh my God. Yeah. So do you maybe wanna kind of get into this one kind of what you saw on that, whatever? Yeah, I can get into this one. This was about, I think it was about a $45,000 trade. This one I took this week. I bought it on Friday and I sold it on, what is that, Tuesday I believe? And this one I was really just looking at it because after BVBY, D-list I like, you also have to take in consideration like this stock is down from seven down to 10 cents with zero pretty much significant bounces except for that one bounce that it had from, I'm not sure, think it bounced from like 20 to like 50 or 60. Yeah. But this day like it's down even more and you have to consider like all the institutions who were selling it for the past three months. Like they're all out and it's really just left with like OTC idiots. And I know I can make money on those OTC idiots because they're gonna buy this shit up thinking it's going back to a dollar. And really when, this doesn't show the full picture of the chart, but it was holding 10 to 12 cents for a couple of days. And I just bought it into the close around 3 p.m. Like I just started very small. And then as we were breaking out over 12 cents, I knew that I could move my stop up at first. I'm getting in at 12 with a very small position to get a feel risking 10 or 11 cents. And as it starts breaking over 12, I know I can move my risk probably to around 12 because if it doesn't have a big spike in push then I know that this entry is wrong. So it did have a big spike in push. And then I took some more ads into the 13, 14 cent area because I know that if it doesn't gap up in push it's also a wrong trade. So I'm taking these entries which are basically risk-free unless I suffer a big gap down which still could happen and that's still a possibility. And then the next day it gapped up and pushed and I sold to my position when I saw the level two turn. And then I added some back on when I saw the, when it turned back up again knowing that I can risk the rest of my position on the low of the day using that trailing stop. But unfortunately I got a little bit scared when it rejected the highs and then came in hard. So I sold my position I sold a small portion of my position down at 1735 which was a bad sell. And then after that I saw how it was trading and it kind of felt to me that whenever it dipped it got saved and knowing that I knew that this would probably be higher later. So I added even more to my position moving my entry up to around 16. So it would be a break even trade if it did stop me up a little lower day. And it just went sideways all day. I took off, like I said, at 11 I usually take off took off, put some, a couple of hard stops in for I don't put my entire position on a hard stop but I put some of my position on a hard stop so I could run up to my computer if I started getting stopped out to sell the rest and it went sideways around 18 and then into the close again it started perking so I added just a little bit and then I sold my ad cause I didn't like how it moved my average up a lot. And then the next day I just ended up selling some at the open and then as it started tanking below 22 that was my new stop the previous close price ended up selling my position and locking it in around probably 21 average, 21, five average. Yeah, it's a good trade. You mentioned seeing the level two turn maybe you could just like briefly talk to people about that, you know what you're looking for kind of on the tape if people are looking to learn just like kind of brief, I guess. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, with OTCs it's different market making than it's not electric, right? So it's not like you just send your order through and it gets directly marketed through electric route and it's like an algo type thing. With OTCs the market makers have to manually put in your order so you can see the turns a lot more clear so you can see when a big seller pops up or a big buyer. And basically into the morning spike like you have to consider like people are kind of chasing this gap up in spike and when a wall like doesn't budge, right? When a wall kind of comes in and it just stays there. Like I think this was like, I think it was 1875 was the top and you saw like, you saw some prints going through 1875 and you saw a market maker add onto the offer and another market maker add onto the offer and then you see like the bid kind of start to chip off a little bit. And that's when that's like the start of a turn and then when it turned it came back in and the same thing on the long side is you see it dip and then it's tanking or whatever. And when you see the bid kind of stay firm that's when you know it's probably gonna turn again upwards. Yeah, no, that's awesome. Does anyone have anything else? Jack, I was gonna say, man, I like, look we've talked to a lot of traders and we meet a lot of people but you're one cool dude, man. Like for making all the money you make and for, you know, living the way you live and how humble you are, man. I just wanna say like shout out to you, man because like it's the first time we're ever talking and there's the first time we're ever meeting. I know you know Harry, but I'm just really impressed. I'm really impressed with the type of person you are. I'm really impressed with how good of a head you have on your shoulders and that shows in your trading as well. And I'm just happy for you, dude. I'm happy for you. I'm glad you found that happiness. I'm glad you found a girl that you love. I'm glad that you have a plan to, you know set up a farm and live wherever you wanna live and start a family because I feel like a lot of people when they get into trading, they wanna get rich shit, right? And that's all how we all started. We all want to make a bunch of money and now that you made a bunch of money you're not getting trapped in that rap race of I made 10 million, 11 million. Now I gotta make 20 million. Now I gotta make 30 million. Now I gotta make a fucking billion. You're like, you know what? This is good enough for me. I'm happy. I've been through the downs and now it's time for me to kind of focus on my life and my family. So I think a lot of people could learn from that too is everyone has a different amount of money that they want to feel comfortable. Obviously it doesn't have to be 10 million. It'd be fucking nice. It'd be nice, but you have to find that number, whatever that is that kind of makes you comfortable. That number that you feel that, you know is gonna give you that peace of mind. And once you have that to realize that there are bigger things in life than money and for you that's a family. But I just wanna say like, I'm just really happy for you, dude. I'm really happy for you. Yeah, thank you, man. And I think that a lot of people, they need to kind of get out of that mindset with like that huge, like massive, massive, massive, massive wealth because that, it's not, I think getting like rich with a few million dollars, whatever it is or even like a few hundred thousand dollars. I mean, that won't last you a long time, even a few million, like you really can do a lot with it. If you set yourself up with the right investments, if you set yourself up to do what you love. And I think a lot of people, like they get into like this very, like very, very competitive. That's how I was at first anyway. And it's just like, once you make 10 million, there's gonna be somebody with a hundred million dollars who then inspires you. And you know, they're probably out in Dubai with a ton of like Richard Millies and they have insane cars or whatever it is. And yeah, I mean, that's awesome. But to get to that level, you're gonna have to go through a whole new level of stress and a whole new, and you're gonna waste all these years where you already have enough money to have this freedom. You already have all this money to eat whatever the hell you want to live, wherever the hell you want to live, travel wherever you want to travel. Yeah, no, it's true. And just to kind of wrap it up is, you have any questions for us? Like, I don't know, we got to just bombard you and throw you put us in a trance over here. I feel like I'm mesmerizing. Like text my mom, tell her I love her or something. Yeah, I can tell her I love her. I was like, maybe if you want our kids, we're not gonna freeze the regular anymore. Yeah, it's good for us before we wrap it up or? Yeah, I mean, I have a question for you, Alex. And I like, I've kind of always like trading a lot of the time, like I kind of, you share your P and L on Twitter, which I highly respect, like you mad ads, like you guys, you guys share your P and L on Twitter almost every day. And it's definitely super inspiring. I always notice like you, like, I like how you trade. Like you will have like a massive win on like the perfect A plus setup. And then the other days you're just looking for singles. You're okay making $1,000. You're okay making $2,000, $3,000, $5,000, maybe on like a good slow day and make like 20 or 30 K. And then the rest of the time, it's like then you're gonna look for a huge win a few times a year or whatever it is. And I just, my question for you is like, how did you also like get to that place of execution? Did you just learn through your trials and tribulations? Great question. It's actually funny because the last two days I haven't really traded because I didn't really see anything that, you know, fit what I was looking for. And honestly, the most simplest answer is, I know it sounds so cliche, but bro, I'm not trading for the money. Like I'm doing pretty well. I got like fucking 25 Louis Vuitton boxes here as I'm saying it. I got a custom Thanos glove over here. For me, it's really not about the money because I feel like the money comes with the opportunity. So my biggest thing in trading has always been I hate missing opportunity. There's nothing that puts a pit in my stomach more than missing opportunity. So for me, just focusing on the day to day, if there's nothing that's kind of there, like you said, if there's a low float, I can't size, right? My biggest thing is how can I get size on this setup? On a low float, even if I use 30, 40, 50,000 shares, the wrong entry is gonna ruin that trade with at least 20 cents of slippage, right? At least, minimum, it's sometimes more. So for me, I'm always thinking about what is the opportunity that I can just get size on? And if I can't get size on it, I'm okay scalping it. So on those opportunities where we have the bed, bath and beyonds, 300, 400,000 shares, I'm notorious for wiring into my account for those setups. You know, there's when GameStop was moving like last year or two years ago, I wired in like $300,000 into my account. I made $300,000 and then I wired it out. So for me, I'm always thinking about, can I get size on this setup? And if I can't get size on this setup due to the float or due to the opportunity, I'm just like, it's not really worked my time. So I'm just scalping around. It's like, for me, it's like, like I'm practicing on games. Like there's season games that you just play and play and play, but the big ones are the playoffs. So I'm always looking for those playoff type opportunities to really bulldoze in. And if not, I'm just treating it as like a regular season game, $1,000, $2,000, $5,000, isn't gonna really change my life. It's really like, I know it sucks. It's stupid to stay, but it's not gonna change my life. So I don't really think about it. And because I'm not thinking about it, I don't really care about it, but I'm pretty much just really, really, really waiting for those, like you said, those high probability setups where I could get a shitload of size on and then just focus. Because without that liquidity, without that opportunity, it's, for me, it's not even worth it. It's not even worth it. Like scalping around every single day is just like, I'm like going to the gym and exercising. I'm practicing. I'm practicing, I'm practicing every single day, every single day, every single day. So that when that playoff that Super Bowl comes, that I'm still in practice. Whereas if I just fucked off for a couple of months, waited for the INDOs. You'll fuck it up. I'm gonna screw it up. I'm gonna screw it up. Pretty much just like me practicing. I'm getting paid to essentially practice and stay in tip-top mental, physical, executional shape just so that when that opportunity comes, I'm gonna fucking attack you. Yeah. And I agree 100% with what you said there. And that's kind of how I look at it too. And I didn't trade today either. Like I didn't see anything. I didn't trade yesterday. I just exited a couple of swing trades. And kind of feels like the market shifting a little bit from like the last four weeks have been pretty good. So we're probably gonna go through a slow cycle the next month or so. Just kind of always having that, what the market kind of should be also in the back of my head. But also I tried the not trading for a month and then waiting for a perfect setup and then going in and I fucked it up so bad. It was LWLG, OTC runner, ran from like a buck to like 20 bucks, shorted a bunch of size and I ended up, I was shorting it on the top day, but I was a little bit too early and I got squeezed out. And I probably lost like 50 grand or something in 2021. It was like May or June or something. And it was just so frustrating because I waited all this time and I was super disciplined just to lose money. So after that happened to me, which I assume you probably went through something similar where you tried not trading and then you fucked up a good opportunity, then it's just about having those small wins. Like you said, that's keeping you in the game and it's also keeping your skills tight because those millisecond decisions that we have to make on the big setups or whatever it is, they're really what's going to dictate how much we get paid that year. And if your timing's off by 10 seconds because you haven't made any trading in the last month or two, like you're just, we all know what a good setup is, right? But if we're not trading, we can't execute. And you get FOMO too. Imagine you're not trading and you're not making money and you're like, okay, this is the one that I'm coming back for. We're too early. All my size and all of a sudden it just like does the complete inverse. So I think that being a professional trader means that you do have to show up every day. You don't have to trade crazy size every day. You don't have to size up every day. You don't have to go crazy every day but just staying in the market and understanding the kind of cycles that we're in, understanding what is kind of going on because you may come, you may take off in the market and then something like top happens and you're like, oh my God, I'm gonna short the shit out of this top. It's gonna go this, that. And then all of a sudden you get squeezed but if you're in the market and you know, all right, we just had the AI sector. We're gonna have the China sector. After the China sector, there's gonna be a sympathy plate and EGL. There's gonna be sympathy plate, XYZ. It kind of keeps you in practice or keeps you in tune with the market to be able to say, all right, like this just happened. So now that is gonna happen. And if you're not in tune with the market, if you're just kind of screwing off, you're gonna miss that little, I guess, intuition that comes along with the screen time of seeing these things occur over and over again. Yeah, no, 100%, 100%. That's how you make a lot of money, right? You gotta size up on the best opportunities and you also gotta stay sharp. Yeah, and make sure those losses are small. It's like, bro, I was actually, it's funny because after crazy shit with top happened, I was going through my stats and just looking through it. All right, what if I just eliminated all these losers? Just out of curiosity, I was like, what would have happened if I just got all these losses out of the equation? What would have happened if it just never existed? And it's literally millions and millions of dollars, dude. It's millions and millions upon millions of dollars. Something that I want to work on at the top is abnormality because it halted, the liquidity, like all this shit was insane. But just as a trader, if you guys are watching this and you guys wanna know how to make more money trading, the way to make more money trading is not to make more money trading, it's to lose less money trading. So if you could find a way to control your losses through broker limits, heart stops, max size, max loss, that in and of itself is gonna lead to more profitability in the future. Yeah, I agree. I've taken, I probably have made the round like 22 million, but I've lost like $10 million in my career. And I've like the amount of like 300K losses. Like I've had a few 300K losses, like a few, like I've probably had like 10, maybe over 100K, maybe 15, I'm not sure exactly what it is. But it's really those like 300, 400K losses that just, they're taking up the majority of my year. Like think about it, I've made good money this year. I think I'm up like maybe 1.6 or 1.7 million. And I think like four, like I probably lost like $600,000 shorting and I've probably tops like 400,000 of that, which is literally like my shorting stats were insane this year. When I was looking at them, I was like, I'm killing it. I got like a 6.0 profit factor. I'm making so much money shorting, but it really just takes that one huge loss to reset all your stats back to like a two profit factor. And I can always feel it coming too, because when my profit factor gets too insane, like when I'm making like over five to 10, like I remember in the bubble, my long profit factor was like 12. Like you're just making all this money, you're never losing, but that one stock comes along. And since you're making so much money, you're like, okay, like I can wait a little bit because... Overconfidence. Overconfidence. I can wait a little bit, like I can wait for this to come back down. I think I'm still right. And then if you add more, that's when you get fucked and then it goes against you and you lose huge. And there was one more point that I wanted to make, but I completely forgot. Logan, if you're ever in New Jersey, New York, I got to take you out for the fattest Tomahawk you've ever seen in your life. Yeah. I love steak and wine. Bro, you're gonna take you to a place where they're gonna fucking pick the cow that you want to eat that day. That's unfortunate. That's sick, dude. Yeah, definitely hits you out. And again, bro, I really appreciate you coming on here. This is just really special to be in the presence of other people that not only understand trading, that have made a lot of money trading and are not fucking douchebags, dude. Like as simple as it sounds. I guess it was really, really nice because the market has a way of humbling you. And no trader that's ever made millions of dollars has not been humbled by the market. So you could always tell who's a great trader, a real trader and a profitable trader by how humble they are. Because if they are not, they have not been humbled and they have not learned that lesson to take them to the next level. So I wanna say thank you, bro. Thank you for coming on here. Thank you for not only inspiring me, but inspiring the people that watch. And I wish you nothing but success, bro. I hope you have the greatest family and healthiest family. And I hope you live a lifelong full of happiness. Thanks, man. Yeah, it's really nice to meet you, Alex. James, I know we've talked before. Harry, the fucking man. Love you, bro. Love you, bro. All right. Well, I think that wraps it up. Thank you. I'm lagging pretty hard. Yeah, Harry's lagging. You got no screen, buddy. He's talking to Harry. He's his avatar.