 Hey friends, this is Dan Stephanie Burke. You're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio. We're going to be talking on part two of Visions and revelations. I think this is going to turn into more than a two-part series And Definitely want to point you to the book vision and revelation by father Gabriel st. Mary Magdalene. Okay, but We're going to go ahead and jump in With With you can cross that one out. We are basically did that With the McDonald's thinking this room and you got to reintroduce them just so you know Tell me when you're ready you ready This Dan is Stephanie Burke. Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart Your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw upon the wisdom of the saints To help us to navigate this very challenging life that we all live and today we have a return guest on part two of Visions and revelations and how to discern them you want to introduce? Okay, so we have father Matthew McDonald with us He is a priest of the archdiocese of New York He has written articles for Catholic world report crisis magazine and spiritual direction calm on various topics dealing with theology Spirituality and current events affecting the church and the world his greatest loves are our lord our lady the priesthood and the church He seeks to help people grow in love of our lord through helping people to live out the teachings of the church on Prayer and the spiritual life and I can attest that all of these are true in our guests father Matthew McDonald welcome back Thank you, Dan and Stephanie. It's an honor and blessing to be with you again So we covered some of the foundational stuff at the beginning of the preview or during the previous show What I want to do father is just continue to Walk through I think you know Just logically laid out questions regarding visions and revelations and how we understand them One thing that was a surprise to me in studying this Is there is a a different effect if you will I don't have the right word I mean there's precise theological language, but there's a different effect that In terms of faith that is garnered by By divine revelation and private revelation, can you Illuminate what those are and why that's important to understand okay some of this goes into again the The faith owed to public revelation Divine revelation, which is owed divine faith and then private relation, which is rooted in human faith and The church's understanding of this comes from Pope Benedict the 14th He wrote this 21 volume work in Latin called days of war and day and you have that all memorized right? No, I don't A good friend of mine who is over in Rome did his doctoral dissertation on part of it And it's still used by the church in her discernment of causes of canonization So Pope Benedict the 14th when he was Prospero Cardinal Lambertini Wrote about this distinction and he says an ascent of Catholic faith is not due to private revelations approved in this way It's not even possible These private revelations seek rather an ascent of human faith and keeping with the requirements of prudence Which puts them before us as Probable and credible to piety So this means that there is a difference between the theological virtue of faith and human faith An individual can believe an alleged private revelations on human faith But he or she does not give the ascent of divine or Catholic faith Which is given only to divine revelation. So again divine revelation public revelation Believe in that is required for our salvation to get into heaven to become the saints that God made us to be Private revelation is not Does not have the same act of faith We give it human faith in so far as it helps us in that divine ascent of faith But that human faith is rooted in prudence and right reason So it's it's a it's a result of reason which if I could use a different word than faith Would would it fall short to use the word ascent or believe a belief based on you know evidence or experience? You could definitely use those terms in the context of a human ascent or belief that this is probable and this is this is where I this Teaching is where I take my general disposition toward private revelation and that is that what I always tell people and especially in times when people are chasing down all of you know all of the The the goofy stuff and and some of the legitimate stuff is The church teaches and please correct me if I'm wrong But the church teaches that you do there is nothing of private revelation That is necessary for your salvation. There's not a single thing Revealed in private revelation. It's necessary for your salvation. Is that is that overstated? No, I think that's dead on correct So that what that means is and this should give people peace is You don't need it For you to get to heaven. You don't need it. It's not required. It's not necessary But it is helpful, which is the difference between the ascent of prudence versus Divine faith. It's helpful as it to the degree that it points you to the The deposit of faith that we have clearly defined in the magisterium and the catechism and all of these You know teachings that we have and in sick clothes and things like that So to the degree that it points you to them, they can help you, but they're not necessary. Is that clear enough? Absolutely, I would also add one more thing to that and this is and to distinguish private relations that have received Full church approval versus private revelations from mystics that have not received church approval. So When private relations receive church approval, you do not have to believe them For your salvation as stated, but at the same time when the church gives it a certain level of Freedance Whether it's the bishop giving local approval will talk about that more or a papal visit or putting it On the liturgical calendar of the church like the feast of Our Lady of Fatima Our Lady of Lords Divine Mercy Sunday You'd be foolish to ignore it So they're not required for salvation to believe in them But if you can believe in them But you'd be foolish to ignore them when the church gives it a certain level of credence Would you say that Fatima in particular is of the highest order of that category? Yes Fatima Lords Guadalupe Divine Mercy say good heart and Saint Margaret Mary again You don't need to believe in any of that any of it to get into heaven to become a saint But because the church hopes have visited these places and have encouraged the devotion It's something that you should strongly consider now Pope Benedict the 16th in verb of Domini again reiterates this point where he says such a message As an alleged private revelation can be a genuine help in Understanding the gospel and living a better in a particular moment in time Therefore, it should not be disregarded There's a help which is offered to us by God through the church but one What which one is not obligated to use? Yeah, I think that's really important to stress that it should not be disregarded, right? If if holy mother church says this is good for you we believe in it and they and they give it such prominence It doesn't hurt us. It actually leads to our fate, you know faith and and to our sanctification I have seen the power of the Divine Mercy Chaplet and all the promises that are connected to it happen over and over and over again it's a beautiful devotion and I watch people's lives completely changed and saved because of it so we It does us good to lean into those things I think where we get in trouble is when it becomes a distraction away from our own Journey with the Lord and away from our own personal time of prayer and sanctification of Using the regular means of the church going to regular confession all those things that we need to do If we're not doing those things and we're chasing, you know Revelations all over the place then we have to understand that we need to take care of our Of our house first and that these should aid us in our devotion To our Lord does that does that ring true father? Absolutely, and I would say this we don't want to fall into You know a skepticism Not rooted in faith That tends towards atheism, but we don't want to fall into a attitude where it's You must believe in this. This is the future. You better not oppose this We're doing this devotion. We're we're in God's favor and that means towards a pseudomisticism Anastasism and a sectarian spirit and that's an example and we'll Definitely talk about this later on of bad fruits and even though you may be getting good feelings from it or May like it if you're falling into that mindset with other people that's a sign that it's a disordered Devotion and there may be some demonic influence in your life going on towards that devotion. Yeah, so very important Well, let's let's move into this question. How does the church respond to claims of private revelation? We mentioned this in a prior show So what is so something happens in in some area of the world and there's some sort of Something going on and it's going viral because that's what happens nowadays. It goes viral How does the church respond to this? What what does he what do they do? So usually the church exercises great caution with respected claims of private revelations as she follows the Apostle mandate to test the spirits as stated in the first letter of John chapter 4 verses 1 through 2 It's also commonly said that the church moves slowly in these matters so the the process so the church moves slowly and I think part of the reason for the slowness and the caution is that Often what needs to be revealed good or bad? It happens over time. It's the same reason that Canonization processes are typically very very slow So there's a specific set of steps a three tiered structure That Private revelation claims can go through they don't always have to go through all three But why don't you walk us through those and and how that works? Okay, so these these steps come from a document that was issued privately to the world's bishops in 1978 by the congregation for the doctrine of the faith called norms regarding the matter a Proceeding in the discernment of presumed apparitions or revelations These norms were publicly promulgated by Cardinal woolen Levita on the Feast of St. John of the Cross December 14th 2011 Just because they were being disseminated privately and they were commonly well known and also because of a genuine Pastoral need so father. Why don't we stop there just because we were heading into a break and we get back? We'll continue and lay those phases of Evaluation out When your market said go this is Dan this is Dan Stephanie Burke welcome back to divine intimacy radio Talking with father Matthew McDonald about a very good book published by Sophia Institute Press Visions and revelations. We're talking about the book that general topic. The book is excellent Written by father Gabriel of st. Mary Magdalene who was once the rector of the great Tarisianum in Rome And we're talking now about how does the church before the break we left off as what is the process or the structure? Regarding the evaluation of private revelation All right, so also This document from the CDF can be found as an added appendix to the book of visions of revelations in the back So there's three three tiered structure the first structure concerns the competent ecclesiastical authority So the evaluation of a private revelation Always starts and stops with the local bishop. Yeah local ordinary Then if it becomes more of a national Situation the comp the conference of bishops or the Synod of the Eastern Church can get involved But it's always deferential to the local bishop Also the CDF and the pope can get involved now if the CDF and the pope get involved If they make a ruling outside the local bishop the local bishop has to obey that and That's what happened with early of all nations the CDF issued an investigation in the 70s and Said it was definitely not supernatural Then the local bishop in early 2000s went against that investigation and the CDF within the past year and a half we had 30 years and It was a sensitive situation. Maybe the way you could question the prudence said no the bishop was wrong Faithful or not to adhere to this apparition So an example of local bishop making the total and complete decision that's accepted by all would Bayside fall into that Yes, category. Yeah, also wholly love ministries on the the side of condemnation now the United States Bishop Rickon and remade Wisconsin Approved the apparition of our leave could hope to happen 1800s and right now that is the only apparition of our lady to receive full church approval in the United States, right? Right, and an example of where there's dispute like where you have you mentioned one the local ordinary says one thing and then these and in this case up to the pope and and the CDF or the Vatican Where there's there's some conflict going back and forth is Medjugorje, right? Medjugorje, yes, so that that is a little bit more of a rare Situation yeah, and I think we we're not going to resolve Or even cast out on Medjugorje or argue for it It's it's I think we're all open, you know But because the revelations continue it can't be fully adjudicated the local ordinary has not been It's not been positively disposed for it toward it, but the the the CDF and the the Vatican is is Not necessarily said. Yeah, you're right. It's not it's not a It hasn't gone along fully with that declaration of the local bishops. Is that accurate you think? Yes, yes and no, it's it's it's complicated. It's gray. Yeah, that's what makes Medjugorje So difficult is you can read one book that'll point out all of the the Arguments for it and all the documents and all the history in another book by another competent scholar who does the opposite, right? so the bottom line is we we wait for the church and I from what I understand there was a time when it wasn't you couldn't even there was a document from the CDF in the United States that didn't even allow a Priest to take pilgrimages there openly or promoted openly in the US or something like that that that seems to have been Fated is that do you know anything about that? It was reversed. Was it not so? the Vatican Oversea of Medjugorje, I think issued new directives But at the time that document was issued by Archbishop Bishop Vigano when he was the papal nuncio to the United States regarding Medjugorje That's the one that said don't go or yes, but more recently There that seems to have been That restriction. I mean at least nobody's adhering to it. Anyway. Yes. Yeah, okay All right, so in terms of the of the process I think that's a good enough summary unless you think there's other Aspects or do you want to talk about the criteria of of how those judgments are made? I think I think maybe going to the criteria would be okay You want to start with negative or positive? So negative criteria. Okay, so here are some things this would be red flags that a Particular apparition would have so manifest error concerning the fact is one or a clearer Cannot be present in claims to private relations such as relaying the sequence of events or giving false testimony So before you jump forward though manifest area regarding the fact What does that mean? Yeah speak for the lay people? Yeah, so Manifest error regarding the fact Could be just a general distortion of the nature of the event that happens. Mm-hmm Not just the sequence, but just the event Okay, also the occasion of that So then a clear error can't be present in the claims to private revelation. That's easier to to understand which is just When they say a clear error, it's either is it a factual historical error or doctrinal error I mean indoctrinal is the highest order of concern. So a manifest error would be like You have a statue that's weeping Actual tears or tears of blood But actually it's not weeping at all There's a broken pipe behind the statue. That's dripping on the statue. It seems to be being yeah right, but a in terms of the clear error outside of a manifest error clear error would be related to Lies that are discovered or Doctrinal or a doctrinal issues is that right? Well doctrinal issues would be separate So so the the series the Nate there's the nature of the event itself So that's the manifest error concerning the fact then there's the sequence of events which the clear error the guards, you know focus is in on then The doctrinal arrows is the actual substance of the message right, right and the substance of the message is very difficult right because there's the message itself and John of the cross of course talked about this a lot in a sent to mount caramel there's the message itself received by the person and then there's the interpretation that Either they or or observers would put on the message. That's where things get can get pretty muddy muddy. Doesn't it does that right? Yes, yes, and normally in the investigation process and norms go into this. There's two rulings. So one is on The message itself. Is it recorded with the church's teaching of faith and morals? So that's the first thing that's ruled. So that's initial approval Then there is the final approval of the motion which it deals with the supernatural character the supernatural character and the but why is it Let's just jump into John really quick why was John of st. John of the cross so concerned with the the message and how and and the issue of our humanity and Understanding interpreting relaying Because often when we receive a vision he uses the language and the ascent amount karma we focus in on the surface or the rind he says so When we hear of a private revelation or we receive something in prayer we immediately focus in on what do I understand it to mean and John the cross said that's not the first question you should look at The first question should be if I'm receiving something How is it calling me to a deeper union with God you faith open love? How is it calling me to a deep deeper union with God so? on the negative side The the next key element is The morality of the messengers themselves is that right yes, so in terms of the morality of the messengers is So that that if there's an investigation that means that church is looking into the lives of the of the supposed visionary or whatever and Making an assessment on the vision based on What they're How holy they are do they levitate what how does that all work? So again? They'll look at the psychological well-being of the person They'll look at is the person honest They'll look at has the person committed any Ravially a moral acts at the time of the alleged apparition revelation or their occasion is Their a connection between the alleged visionary the alleged phenomenon of the way devotion the devotion that originated in the claims as practice or Is the legend vision a visionary showing psychic disorders or psychopathic tendencies that clearly influence the alleged supernatural events such as schizophrenia or severe depression So an example of this a call to mind is the woman she was a Franciscan I think a perpetual adoration that St. John of the Cross Investigated and apparently what I don't remember the all the details, but if I remember right maybe she was levitating she only existed by Consuming the Eucharist that sort of thing and people thought she was very holy So the I guess the local ordinary dispatched St. John to investigate in his conclusion was that she was possessed Does it doesn't do you remember that case? Yes. Yes So just because somebody seems pious and holy doesn't mean they're actually pious or holy they can be fully possessed and There are other criterion within the theological tradition that church at the church that can be used in evaluating But these are just general norms But we could get into some of those other things and those are mentioned by Gargoyle Grange and Antonio a Royal Marine and also Father Gabriel as well Okay, well, I think in terms of this show we the next Thing to jump into is is positive criteria. So we talked about the negative But in terms of this show, I thought we don't have enough time to to conclude that Do you have the ability to schedule another show with us to just keep rolling down this topic? Absolutely Great. So folks if you're not a subscriber to spiritualdirection.com Head out there and you'll find the first show on on this topic and the second show and then We'll see how many more we have there's a lot to cover on this topic and it's important for our time But how about spiritualdirection.com make sure you're a subscriber Don't forget to check out the events page for our divine intimacy and marriage retreats other retreats for our pilgrimages and Until next time which is Stephanie's line, which I don't want to steal may the God of peace make you perfect in holiness May he preserve you whole and entire Spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. All right