 Hey, everyone, Neil Brennan not gonna set up the premise of the podcast anymore But I guess the question is do you want to heal the earth? Let's heal the earth my guest today is Probably the most I know you don't like who likes superlatives But you've done really well for yourself and you've done really well with other people. I'm the Jewish Neil Brennan You are the Jewish you've done well for yourself. You've done well with in collaboration I looked it up on chat GBT. Have you just chat GBT yourself? No, I have chat GBT app on my phone I said what are Judd Apatow's most successful projects chat GBT said Judd Apatow is known for several successful projects Including TV shows like freaks and geeks and undeclared, which is like leading with that is interesting Yeah, the 40-year-old virgin Knocked up Super bad McLovin This is 40 the therapist said you're not allowed to judge me and train wreck. Who's your favorite team your lando? Looms he often falls Falls within the comedy genre and has garnered both critical acclaim and commercial success I think they should have mentioned I'll tell you what that I think they should have mentioned instead of undeclared and freaks and geeks bridesmaids and McKay Farrell to me that's what I would have done chat GPT Like the McKay Farrell movie Weird you would think chat GPT would be all over that shots fired Judd Apatow's here, buddy, and you were saying earlier As we started rolling that you don't you're done trying to look good Well, this is also part of the podcast world as you show up places And they're like there's a video component. Mm-hmm now what I'm gonna be you know walking a red carpet There's a glam team. They're trying to figure out how to make this all work visually. Mm-hmm. You show up on a podcast You're getting the real this is what walking around. This is what you look like at work This is this is a lot of thigh and black socks and shorts This is and I don't want to say it's beyond Jewish I you know what might be beyond Jewish I can't blame it on Judaism when I was addressing today I thought I think I'm behind a desk and so I don't have to wear pants. No No It's but thank you for coming. Where have you been? I haven't seen you in six months. I've been in London Oh, yeah, you've been a lot of Jimmy Carr told me you're in London. I saw Jimmy Carr there You have to see him if you're there, of course you have to check in great man, and then my daughter's Mod is in Cabaret. Oh And so I went there want to see that eight times. Did you literally? Oh, yeah going back See it a few more times. When does pride stop? kicking in and notes Start when does pride and and notes be in never? Mods are made it very clear. My notes are terrible. She's she's just Has she changed the PT view? They must have had some good notes. You know my note is I just say this to her after every shot go Ham it up Ham it up She's like please. Can you stop saying ham it up? That's the only note I have the theater is not my thing So you don't want you don't want notes. So she doesn't get any mods the older one. Yes. She's on euphoria as well She is what was your name again? And it's the younger one an actor as well. She is an actress. Well, is it Iris Iris? Yes She was on love. Oh, right. Okay. Good chat GPT didn't look careful didn't make it chat GPT loves the bubble The bubble your movie the bubble. Yeah chat GPT Love you had a bit. I also want to say that you have some of my favorite jokes You had a good joke about the bubble which is it was Less it was on Netflix and it was less popular than is it cake. Yes And then you watched it you watched is it cake and you're like this is better than the ball Yeah You also have my favorite joke about men having sex. I don't want to botch it Do you remember the joke what we're trying to ride the line between? Oh walking a fine line between impotence and premature ejaculation That's what being a man having sex is walking a fine line between impotence and Premature ejaculation women if you're wondering what it's like for us Judd nailed it. Yes. You also had a great Bill Cosby bit About Bill you did a Bill Cosby impression which no one saw coming And Bill Cosby going was it going to the male the the mailbox to get it was a bit in Bill Cosby's voice of Him going to the end of the driver every day and hiding the paper. So Camille wouldn't know he was in trouble And you did it and it was very funny you did on the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon I wasn't gonna do it. I was working on the Fallon set and I was doing that bit but no plan to do it on TV didn't think you could do that and then a few comedians the night before like Oh, no, you have to yeah have to do that. So I you know the thing with you is I Think you always just get like successful right Like just it's successful and like what no one really knows what you do They just know that you Involved in successful things. I've been very very tangentially involved and seen some of the things you've done I went to the a read-through for trainwreck that was not good and Then within four months you guys were shooting and the movie was very good What did you do give me an example of what to when I at the read through I went to it was very a Morphous didn't have good shape didn't have like clear beats I'm assuming that's fairly exemplary of what you've done with people Explain to people what that what you do in these situations. Well, I don't really remember that table read Specifically, it wasn't like a awful. It was just kind of like me. It was like fine. Yeah I mean so much of it is when it comes to life You know you're with like how how good are the jokes gonna work when LeBron James is not at the table read Yeah, so so part of my job is to go. Don't panic. Yeah, we just had our friend read that Yeah, and that's gonna play differently when you did it actually you play LeBron. You did one of your famous black voices Oh, yeah, exactly. Maybe that's why it bombs. Yeah at that table and it was like real 70s ish Like say, baby, you had you said say, baby Of every one of LeBron's lines and it was very offensive. I loved it personally We used to be able to people hate it or usually I forgot to get the paper times have changed But I mean I think for all those things you're just trying to be very open to criticism So for instance like a lot of times people will do a movie and they'll show up for rehearsals like two days before They shoot and they'll do a table read then and maybe it's the only time they've ever done a table read Yeah, so the main thing I did was say let's do a table read four months before shooting and we will have four months To learn from it and I think most people do that table read the week before and and that's a massive choice Just right. I totally agree and that's your TV training. I'm assuming. Yes, again if you don't know you probably don't know because you're not old Ben Stiller the movie actor and now director a Ben Stiller who's a fucking killer director Travis Thunder is a Near-perfect comedy and I would I think you would probably agree with that You and Ben Stiller created a sketch show called the Ben Stiller show In 1991 Yeah, it aired in 92. Yeah. Yeah, and it was a great show and it was canceled and then you guys want to let me Molly man and Jimmy Miller everybody who made this possible. Thank you. That was your first real Organized that was the first time you played like organized ball, right? Yes, and what did you what was that like? Well, here's the funniest thing is now we're talking about the Ben Stiller show and it's 30 years ago, right? So I whenever anyone talks about something that's 30 years ago I always think so if this was the 70s and we were reflecting back to something 30 years ago We're talking about the 40s I know like we're you know, like if it's music. It's like, you know Chuck Berry. Yeah That always blows my mind. Shanae Doe Conner Shanae Doe Conner I don't want to take a joke when there's so much suffering in the world is dead Princes I'm just thinking about people that were like popular when the Ben Stiller show was on. Oh, yeah Adam y'all dead from the visa, but you guys would play the visa boys in the interstitials. I remember sound likes But they had a record that was all just instrumental instrumentals. It was incredible. And so we said, oh, well Let's just do funk music Instrumentals yes between everything but with the Ben Stiller show I met Ben online at an Elvis Costello Unplugged concert I was with Dana Gould and he had met Ben before Ben. It just had a TV show on MTV which was very before Larry Sanders very land Larry Sanders asked of behind the scenes of a sketchup and We thought of this idea and like two weeks later We sold it everyone thought we had been friends for years and we literally just Met and I had produced some stand-up specials and you know not much My resume looked better than what I had actually learned how to do So most of my work with Ben was drafting off of the fact that Ben really knew what he was doing Yeah, I was catching up So where would you say you learned the most when I think of you at Larry Sanders show? It feels like an apprenticeship. Yes underneath Gary, right and was still or that's similar not necessarily You and you and Ben were closer in age, but I'm saying was it Because you done a TV you did a sketch show and then you hadn't done a narrative and then you started working with Gary Yes, well, I mean with Ben. He had already basically invented what he wanted to do Yeah, it was very cinematic. Yeah parodies Parodies and shoots I mean it's basically that we did on spell show like yeah same thing and he you know He always loved Albert Brooks. Yes SNL movies and the films from SNL And you know, he always said this is SCTV if they had more budget and I would also like to give a shout out to Robert Townsend who did it. Yes, you got a bunch of HBO specials With single-camera cutaways Yeah, they were great. Yeah him and Keenan were doing amazing things and and so I learned a ton, you know watching Ben but I also had to run the room and I'd never run a room I'd never even been in a room and so there was a writer's room of eight people Yeah, and you know, that's a Bob Odenkirk was in that room And so it was a pretty hardcore and we were trying to not do it the way SNL did it So, you know, we would work on sketches till we thought they were ready to shoot Where SNL reads them and if they're they don't get on the show It's pretty hard to get them on the show Yeah, sometimes it happens. Yeah, but we were like, well, let's just keep polishing things So we think they're ready to to shoot and we had a different system that we were working on Which looking back we lasted one season and SNL is about to do 50 So maybe our adjustment of the system wasn't exactly I don't think you guys also wanted that, but But yeah, I don't get from those places No, from Ben a lot about how he was shooting so we would do these sketches like Ben doing a parody of Tony Robbins I am not evil. I am not the devil. Ben would improvise. So we'd write the script and then Ben would go I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, I've never seen that. I was in part of second city of the groundlings Yeah, and we would write extra jokes and Ben did these sketches where he played an agent Michael Faray Like ferret and he would pitch projects that people like Roseanne and Tom Or run DMC and sometimes Ben would say I don't want to say these jokes to their face So we told them we were done shooting they would leave and we would keep going on his single and Shoot always like terrible ideas for their careers. Yeah, and then cutting them going. Hmm. Exactly. Yeah And so, you know, cinematically writing wise editing that's kind of what's funny is that's kind of your what is this like the Apatow style Oh, yeah, and it's not my style. No, I'm not but it's it's known as like well No, they they improvise a lot like that's on the Judd movies Do you set up for camera? You basically do what we're doing, which is like a widened two singles I just embraced it in a big way And try to create a financial situation where people had time to do it That's your in the movies and the TV shows. Yeah to say Of course Adam McKay came from you know being one of the founders of UCB and yeah second city He knew how to do all that but for me as a producer of the first movie he directed I'm trying to make sure that I can help him have time. Yeah, you know to encourage it and To go we have enough money to dick around till you riff and play with will yeah And and I did that for myself and for other people to say this is a style that requires money I mean, yeah, I mean if you're gonna it's also scheduling. It's a which is the same thing It need you need money. You need to shoot in this If it's 40-year-old version you need to shoot in this the junk place or whatever Yeah, you need eight hours. Yeah, at most producers would say three you go. Let's do a Giving the money. Let's schedule. It was the full belief in it and I had seen you know clips of Paul riser and diner. I knew that he had made up most of his part. Yeah, that they just knew Let's have a funny guy around and we'll play and Barry Levinson comes from being in a comedy. Yeah team And that had a big effect on me like oh you can do it that way And I had seen clips on like deleted scenes right, you know stripes Yeah of Ramis and Bill Murray playing tonight. We're gonna go out and kill a wild boar I think we should find a hotel room and then when I saw stiller do it and then Shanley would do it But he mainly did it either when we shot the talk show or in rehearsals They would do the scene but Gary would riff and play and then it would get locked in the script So the main thing I did was We could continue the thing Gary does in rehearsal while the cameras are rolling right and but Gary wouldn't do it I guess he would take the best part of the rehearsal and put it in the exact And sometimes he would but it was you know, we were shooting 17 pages a day on film. Yeah, you know I'm rollerblades. I'm rolling with the cameras on rollerblades. So, you know when you do a movie It's like four pages a day. Yeah, and we were doing 17 a day So you couldn't riff too much. Do you ever find yourself being arrogant? I Think that would be the trap if I were you. Yeah, I know I mean, I have to say that my low self-esteem is the driver For all of it. I don't feel like the success of anything Helps the next one work Right. Yeah, well, you're correct. It's all an experiment. You could be wrong completely I have been and so I there's there's no place for for that maybe in the Protecting the process right you may evoke your credit to be like, you know, yeah on 40 year old virgin when yeah You have to to go. I don't want to screw this up. So if someone says You know, can you do it for this budget? Can you change this thing if it's really wrong? You try to protect what your vision is of it, but Secretly, I don't know if any joke's gonna work. I mean part of the reason why I Overshoot is a million times whether I've done it or watching McKay do it The thing that everyone talks about is the weird thing that will Ferrell said like whatever milk was a bad choice Milk was a bad choice. I don't remember who thought of it, but it wasn't in the script. Yes What's your favorite? I guess we don't have I was gonna say what's your bet? Your favorite pitch of yours in anything that you can that off the top of your head. Oh a Favorite pitch or a joke. Oh my god. I don't know. I mean, I have to say when we made the bubble I found Fred Armisen To be so funny it brought me so much joy. He was so watch him riff And I also realized that if I didn't yell cut he would never stop No, he would go for 20 minutes and he would never like look at the camera and go Is that enough? Yeah, and so What are the most fun? I ever had was just like I wanted him to be like cursing because all the actors are escaping the set and Of the dinosaur movie they're shooting and just telling Fred to just curse because he's never cursed the whole movie and just Fucking shit like and seven minutes of Fred riffing frustrated cursing Man, I mean, that's like why I'm in the business. Yeah to witness things the one I always remember was McKay Directing will and there was a scene where he gets punched in the face I think by Rudd and anchorman too. Yeah, and they just rift Reactions to getting punched really hard and at one point, you know McKay pitched to him React like it it made you go back to regressed to where you're like four years old Uh-huh, you hit so hard you're four years old and it was just like Will's just like You're like whatever it was or and then McKay is like react like you got hit so hard that you can speak Spanish and You know watching McKay and will know I know McKay has a gear that I've never seen Yeah, no one can do this where you're just like Jesus Christ Alright, let's do a jet-abot house blocks. Oh boy. This is great. Number one existential terror. Yes What are you afraid of son? I feel like my existential tears gotten a little better like as you get older you're like Who'd be that bad to die? Yeah, you know you you know what the thing that people under eight with suicide. Mm-hmm. It's a bit of like I don't have to take this shit. You know what I mean? It's that like life is So relentless and you're like, you know, I could end this mm-hmm It's a little bit empowering that was a line that Owen Wilson pitched when we wrote a script together the 90s We were writing a movie for him in ripped horn And one of the lines he wrote for rip was Sometimes the best thing you could say about life is you can end it whenever you want And I don't mean it in the sense of the casus Adelaide. I just mean like I saw this Japanese chiropractor You know Eastern medicine person the level of doctor this guy's that you've met it's not insurable It's Brett wood only this is a cash situation. Yeah, it's You don't even look it up guys. You can't it's word of mouth and you gotta find her Yeah, you gotta know like people that you can't believe someone would know but as I'm getting acupuncture or something I Just said to her like, how do you not be afraid of death? These are the conversations I have and she said, you know, you're supposed to be afraid of death You know when you're young you're supposed to be afraid of death And that's what your life is and you're trying to achieve and accomplish and have this life And then she said you'll see as you get older. It slowly Disappates and I have found that in a healthy way that I understand what that is you have a youthful madness and energy Mm-hmm, which I always think about In terms of early in my career and all my friends the madness of thinking that you might succeed Like the self-belief that was completely unjustified. There was no proof There's no evidence that it would work out like a feel it's like a mania Yes, or like this this hope that borders on mania Yeah, and this like if I succeed if you and Ben make a TV show That works you'll never have another problem It's oh like you're set and that's what I remember was like this thing of like if it everything would take care of itself It's like I used to watch Kobe Bryant when he first got the Lakers. I had season tickets and he just missed so many shots And you would watch him and he was 18 19 years old and he didn't care Yeah, it was just a part of him that was like I'm gonna figure this out Yeah, and then he did and I watched him figured out over you know a couple years, but he had that madness of This is gonna all work this plan of having the courage to keep taking risks Yeah, it'll work and that's what I look back and see with young people I know now I think we're built to to go for it and Believe anything is possible, and then you get older and you people get retreats and they get more scared Yeah, people make less movies and they slow down or they question what they're doing But there's something really wonderful about being in your 20s and being you know like a young Tarantino lunatic making reservoir dogs. Yeah whole Thomas Anderson making boogie nights. Yeah, all right So what's the existential? Is it has it gotten how did it get better? You'd think just time You know I like parents weren't religious at all, but they didn't replace it with anything They never said we don't believe they didn't even said they never even said we don't believe in God. Yeah, it was not discussed Ever did you see you but you would see it in movies, right and go like what I mean. Oh God was out. Oh God That's just an expression I loved oh God I was hanging on to oh God for dear life I wanted George Burns to be God so it you had nothing so I have nothing and also in that period There was a an enormous amount of terror about Russia So in the you know the Reagan year early 80s They were scaring us into thinking a nuclear attack was gonna happen at any moment Yes, so that along with no religion no spirituality. It's not like someone was explaining Buddhism to me or reincarnation or anything That would just became a gaping hole that it's taken a lifetime to try to fill it with something What is the when you think is it the the however long the death sequence is Is it or is it the nothingness that you're afraid that will follow it? It's funny because I have a nothingness fear, but I also if you said You can live forever That's scarier to me The idea of that so there's no pleasing you there's no Why would that I used to want to live forever what why does that scare you the enormity of it? It's just too much. Oh, that's interesting. There is something structural about death That pleases the human psyche gets you off your ass and now you know since then you know I've read a lot of Buddhism and I'm interested in and all of those ideas and I'm certainly not settled But I probably have come down a Lot compared to to what it was how would it man it would it be like? Panic attacks dread. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Just like This when it got quiet it was not really handleable for me It's only through meditation that I find a place in quiet and with myself That was manageable, but for a long time. It was like keep your brain Thinking about anything but that and that also drives workaholism and comedy and the absurdity of life And isn't it weird we care about these things and so in a lot of ways It's what all the comedy is about it and more of saving up death or the fear of it The absurdity of all of it. Yeah, none of this makes sense. Yeah, the standards are absurd I can't believe men and women are supposed to get along. Yeah, everything. Yeah, like can you believe I and then you did you fucking Disintegrate and this is the setup for all of it. Yeah And so, you know for me that that's what drives Everything is I just like I can't believe that these are the situations That's why most of my movies are not very imaginative because I don't need it. Thank you. Thanks for saying that I Don't really need it. I really feel like things are so bizarre that just trying to get along with anybody is Ridiculousness I would like to commend you your the thing about your movies at the scale you were doing them in the 90s movies like Me and David have big but they were all sort of like Premisee yeah, Sandler movies of Of that you worked on I think a little bit. They were very Premisee. Yeah, they were very like I got a I'm a crazy golfer The cable guy Or yeah, you made the cable guy the cable guy is pretty A little real it's basically just like an obsession movie. Yes, right It's unlawful entry or hand that rocks the cradle as a comedy, right and but that's a premise I mean it was that's first, but then you're then they just became like knocked up I got a got a girl pregnant or 40 or virgin Did that feel Premisee? Well, I think it was a premise that was Steve Krell's idea from a sketch he had Been playing around with but never really completed at second city And then we both said what if we took it very seriously? And it wasn't a premise movie past the name And the poster and the look is a little like the mentos. Yeah, it's based on the mentos ads That's the look yeah, because they were mentos ads without those colors and But there's also the eye line that was the novelty of your movies your posters was the eye line that it was the class picture day Whose idea was that? I uh, I was at somebody in marketing. Yeah, I think uh It was the universal marketing great. Maybe it was Maria pecker of skia who we worked with on it and the uh, I believe Art striper shot that photo and but I asked someone about it because I wasn't there when they shot it And I'm like was it hard to get that look from Steve and like no he nailed A hundred. Yeah once they pitched it. It was like, yeah Yeah, but your movies were Premisee or and then you started making moves like it's just this is 40 Or or even trainwreck is just like I'm good girl with a drink of problem Or bridesmaids my favorite one in that That the reason I love bridesmaids is because that's a real problem That women have when they get married It's like who's getting attention in the party and all that stuff and and what Kristen wig and Annie mumble who wrote it We're interested in was what do you do when like your friends are doing better than you and you can't even afford To attend the events around these Relationship successes they're having and how bad it makes you feel and how it makes you look at your life You know how how you're doing are you behind everybody else? But that's the I would add that besides improv which you invented Um, I would I would add that as like you're a big contribution As like real real problems In movies not I have to save my mom From the senior center, so I'm gonna golf like a crazy person like and or half-paked or whatever like So I've done those movies too. Yeah, of course you have but you've done more of the real ones. I would argue Yeah, it's a little bit more my wheelhouse, which a lot of it is From you know the people I love as a kid james brooks and mormon layer and barry leavenson people like that That's what I kind of understand more because I'm so uncomfortable and neurotic that I see All these little moments is like high stakes. Yeah, just general, you know, we're having a baby. What do we do? You know to me. Well, that's that's enough. That's that's as much of a premise as someone trying to murder us Yeah, well, I see it as the baby is gonna murder your lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah, so Right, that's what that's what I'm about. So yeah, well, that's great. That's great that you've been able to turn the terror Into into work, right? Yeah, I mean there's something so unhealthy about it the idea of being Uh, I know I think what what it does is it makes you feel like there's safety in accomplishment and safety and having a job Yeah, and being good at what you do and not being Uh, irresponsible in your job or whether your finances, you know, that's the the neurosis of it is I don't want anything to get fucked up So I'm gonna really think years ahead and every detail I'm gonna game out What could go wrong here and what can I do right now? Years in advance to avoid that problem. You're when you say years in advance. What are you talking about? It could be anything. It could be uh, You know say it's like it's a movie and you know before you've written it You're already thinking about like what would the trailer be? You know, why would anyone go to this who would need to be in it? What budget would I need? What budget would allow it to be successful? How many days might I need to to shoot it and just like everything that would wreck it? Trying to figure it out. You're already worried about it. Yeah And do you have a clear memory of doing that with something everything? I mean, I don't think there's an exception So for the version anchor man Knocked up like you you were like is you would game out like is will A big enough Still like all that stuff like do I who do I need to put with will ferrell? Well, that's you know That was a script that they had that they asked me to to jump on they had been trying to get it made for a while and Uh, they weren't able to and so it was just like a a growing team of we know there's an amazing movie here How can we get this set up? Yeah, and I think for every movie You know the funny thing about movies is in order to you know, get them made You have to really be able to tell people while they'll why they will succeed Yeah And that was a funny one because no one got it for a long time And I remember someone almost made it and they were like, but why did why does anyone want to see an anchor man? and we're like Well, it's not that it's it's an excuse to talk about Uh, you know sexism in the workplace and We didn't use the words, but it was toxic masculinity and and and it's a way to do the jerk You mean i'm gonna stay this color We're basically trying to do movies like that But people would talk themselves out of it like but no one's ever gone to an anchor man comedy, right? We yeah, we did it. We ran the numbers and they're have they're the only news room be news, right or news, uh What was that? We're Brooks one broadcast news Broadcast but they were like wait, no one went to that Robert Redford Michelle Pfeiffer Journalist so fun. So a lot of it is that you have to be able to Sell somebody on the potential for it to be Successful. Yeah And and and that's game it because you're trying to explain to them like here's why they will go Yeah, like will is a movie he's on center at live and generally speaking people from center at live become movie stars Yeah, it was you did have to explain it before you and mckay the people that made comedy movies were not funny They just were like they liked comedy kind of but they didn't they were like producers and then they got like You're supposed to be funny. What are you and then but you guys were the first I guess ramus didn't really produce though Ramus wasn't a producer. Yeah, maybe Ivan Reitman But he didn't really produce that much besides himself But you guys felt like the first people who would bring in funny people to make funny movies And before that it was like a lot stuffier. Yeah, I mean I'm trying to think about what changed because Everyone from our generation loved those movies No, we all loved ghostbusters and stripes and I think the first movies that kind of Before us that were big hits was like wedding crashers And you know, there's clerks and swingers, you know, so things were beginning to happen where They were clues to which way to go. They were all the giant Jim Carrey movies and Adam too and sam and the sandler movies You know, we're getting bigger and bigger and I just thought how can you do a Jim Carrey set piece comedy But also have grounded credible You know, can you do both? Can you do Barry Levinson and Shadyak combined? Yeah, and that was the with for the original what was in my head Can I do the big can I chest wax him and believe he's a real person? Yeah, that's I yes I would argue that that is your what you did, which is excellent. Thank you You're welcome. Enjoy the money Hey everyone, you know how I get how I don't I don't like inconvenience I don't like uh disrespect. I like pebble smooth experiences Well, you know how tickets is often not that. Well, I have an antidote for that Not an anecdote. I have an antidote for stressful ticket buying situations And that as you well know Is a game time buying tickets to your favorite events shouldn't be stressful Game time is the fast and easy way to buy tickets for all sports music comedy and theater near you With killer deals on last minute tickets and their best price guarantee You can stop stressing over the tickets and start getting hyped for the fun you'll have You're gonna have fun. 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I've heard of they are gonna be at the forum 50 cent it's going to be at the crypto arena. He's definitely Ahi, I think he would be pretty Component and letting me know he's a he and he would troll me in a funny way about it because he's a funny one of the great trolls Go see him in concert I feel like there's a farewell element to it And I feel like buster rimes is on the tour with him because buster posts a lot about it on instagram I follow bust on instagram Buster rimes hadn't seen him one time in 10 years and he gave me a quick pound and said What's going on? Oh g which still means a lot to me. He called me. Oh g didn't love the old part But did love that he went what's good. Oh g. I just changed what he said. I think he said what's good Lauren hill's coming No comment ed sheeran Comment seems nice started busking in in the subway So no one no one ever tells the story game time is the place for a last minute ticket deals Forget planning months in advance. 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They're designed to fit slimmer through the thigh and leg Giving you a truly sculpted look bird dog shorts to the exact same thing as little lemon But fit way better They fit way better than regular shorts that are made of a stiff restrict and cotton the way shorts used to be They I was watching um The last dance on netflix, of course and at one point steve kerr is it's at a bull's parade And steve kerr is wearing the dorkiest khaki shorts You can't believe it that we used to all wear Even recently they made khaki That it's like a knit fabric. It looks like khaki, but it stretches so you can Get a slimmer fit without having to sacrifice movement And it uses anti stink sweat wicking fabric That keeps you cool and dry all day long. I like the guy Pitching that like what's the deal with fabric anti stink. They look better. I've done this before Here's how the shorts look. Here's how they used to look go to bird dogs.com slash neil or enter promo code NEAL for a free yeti style tumblr with your order. That's birddogs.com slash neil Or promo code neil for a free yeti style tumblr You won't want to take your bird dogs off. We promise you wore them recently on the plane And they were great plain pants bird dogs.com slash neil Self-esteem self-esteem You don't got it Self-esteem is a great motivator as well. I mean it's like what you said about not being arrogant but I think it's the beginning, you know, it's for me at least it's you know, it's the the seed of comedy which is You feel out of place You feel less than But you're also angry about it. You're like Fuck you a little bit. Fuck you. You're wrong about me. Yeah, you know, I'm a bad athlete You people only care about who is a good athlete. Yeah, and so now I'm some loser because I can't play Basketball like and so I need my own thing Which you know for me and for all our friends like it becomes Comedy like can I have a little piece of something that no one else is interested in? Yeah, maybe I can be good at that and maybe you won't even care that I'm good at that But maybe the world will care no one in my high school was also interested in comedy So I thought well, maybe I can get this job because there's literally no one in my grade of 500 people That has any interest. I think that's different now. I'm sure there's a lot of people in But the job you were interviewing comedians in high school. Yeah Was that the job you're talking about? No, the idea of just working as a performer or writer that Wow, maybe everyone wants to be a lawyer or a sportscaster No one wants to write for saturday night lot. You got it. You went to at usa, right? Yeah And when you went there for film school, were you like, oh, wow, there's other kids that even like Movies the way you do. Yeah, but even more so when I came out and I had done a Teen even to stand up in high school and I went to places like the ellie cabaret and the laugh factory and its earliest You know creepiest carnation when it was just like a this tiny little narrow space I met all these people and I went. Oh my god. This is like the me From every high school in the country. Yeah, I used to say it was like the the b video from blind melon like here Here's everyone. I dreamed existed. Yes, and I didn't I'd never had a friend like that Yeah, it's an amazing moment. I had that moment in when I started writing for Singled out on mtv and I was like these guys were they we were talking about things We'd all noticed on tv and no one had ever I never met anyone that noticed that before and Same thing with Dave when we did when I worked the door to comedy. I was just like, oh wow these it's so fucking cool You know who steve kogan is. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, it's like that. And so, you know that Obviously, it's the moment when your self-esteem rises because you realize. Oh, I'm not crazy I'm not just some weirdo And then you're validated for having an interest that people care about and then you start performing and writing And you get more validation, but the original seed of it is I'm not like everybody else And I think at some point this will pay off. I don't I hope it will it seems like it might But for me, especially like we're talking 1984 85 the comedy scene was tiny So I thought there's only like a hundred comedians in the world So yeah, I could be number one I've noticed within myself that there You do projects To try to like let's see if I'm gonna you know out myself or just give me myself a jolt, right? Yeah But you start Having more jolts in you like your baseline goes up Generally speaking like I can only criticize myself so much at this point And I wonder if someone who's more successful may have you found that Your baseline in general is higher than it was 30 years ago Baseline of my self-esteem like you'd go. Yeah, you'd chat to you. You're like, ah, yeah, I've done enough I've done a bunch of shit Well Yeah, can you talk yourself out of it at this point? I think you'd have to be crazy to talk yourself out of being talented at this point Yeah, I mean, I think when I was younger You know when you when you first started doing well There your friends really support you there. Some people are like annoyed And don't think that you Have done anything right or you deserve it or whatever. Yeah, and there's all this There's you know, not a lot but like some people you go Oh the fact that it's beginning to go well for me is really bothering them And that's a tough thing because we're all insecure. Yeah And and some of those people evolved out of that but there was definitely that moment of like The fuck is he doing like yeah, he's not good. What is what's happening? And so I was always proud that over time There's a relative consistency So the fact that like most of the work Is decent and the stuff that doesn't work is like a noble try Right, you know, so that gives me self-esteem. Like it wasn't a fluke over two years. Like I'm I'm you know, okay at this Uh, and that helped my self-esteem, but at the same time You know, the world is changing. There's new people. There's new people coming in. There's new styles You have to worry about irrelevant. You could just go Yeah, even the idea of trying to keep it going is enough to Make your self-esteem drop which is by the way that self-esteem drop is the thing that makes you work your ass off Yes, and like when we did the george carlin documentary me and michael bun figlio The thing that I love that we noticed was the reason why george carlin evolved was first because cheech from cheech and shang Made fun of him saying he was corny and just doing jokes about peas And then later on he watched sam kinnison and said I don't want to be like Breathe in this guy's dust And so in two moments he just redoubled his efforts to be really good And so I I do feel like that kind of self-esteem Issue at least in your business life. Yeah, uh can force you to work harder and dig deeper Yeah, I I mean that that is the defense of low self-esteem. It's like, well, no, it's gonna it the the good part in terms of output is that These containers Are very faulty They can be like colanders in terms of like the self-esteem drops out and the other idea that like in life You get used to shit very quickly you get used to like Getting nominated for things or getting money or get and then you just go like Your hierarchy of worry The things change, but the amount of worry doesn't yeah You're just still you still have a certain amount of worry that you have to channel into something Yeah, and it's also how much of my life self-esteem Is connected to that, you know, there's how much of it is well Luckily like in life most people don't care about it at all, right? So so it's not connected to To that well, what do you think people care about in life when you say they don't care about it? What do you think people are you talking? It's not your kids because you work with your kids Yeah, but your family doesn't care or your wife you work with your wife Their judgment of you is not about that The people you care most about it's not about that at all. It's just like are you a good person? Are you a loving parents? What do you feel? Okay, what are those? standards I mean, I you know for me, it's like as I tried to evolve as a sane person, you know You know a lot of this stuff I go back to gary because you know The whole of spirituality a lot of it was filled by gary talking about buddhism I would also like to pause here and say that the carlin documentary And the gary documentary they're both on hpo max or whatever they're calling it now are two of the best If you want to feel like a comedian There are some montages of notebooks That gary wrote some things that I've almost verbatim written In his notebook that I'd written on my like that and steve martin's first three pages of born standing up I think are the best If you want to know what it's like. These are the best examples of ever seen Yeah, gary had these journals and I think they were mainly messages to himself I always saw his journal says him talking himself off the ledge So even though you might read it and think oh, these are like positive motivational things like Be more loving be open. Don't live in your ego He's only writing it because the thing he's not writing is the exact opposite Like that's the response to the bad thoughts. Yes, and you know for me In a nutshell, that's what I'm trying to do on some level, which is go. Well, what am I shooting for? I'm shooting for you know like that the scene with the Rom das is talking to me and gary in the documentary and he just says, you know, it's all just loving awareness you know Being a kind person living in your heart not in your head and if if I can get closer to that You know, it's a slow Hopefully continuous journey Then I feel better about myself and hopefully I'm doing a better job with people Is that from inside or from outside? Is it you saw a look from Leslie or Maude or iris about like where you were like, oh, I'm fucking up and I need to be better or was it I'm unhappy Generally, I'm anxious. I'm whatever and I need a better way to exist Well, it's both. I mean, I think the people around you are always signaling when you're off track And and you notice it but the general work is like a daily practice of making those reminders What's most important in your life like the thing I like about buddhism is They talk a lot about uh beginner's mind like in every moment Can you be completely open and not bring your story and your theories and actually hear people and experience what's happening? So the reminder of that is a game changer if you remind yourself But you might forget about it for five months And then one day you open up a book go. Oh, I forgot about that whole beginner's mind concept I know it's so it's so funny. I want to do a thing I feel like we're a few years away from it but I want All of my house to be led walls And I want reminders Like beginner's mind, but I you need to sequence it so it's not just You I can't tune it out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like uh, maybe 10 of them like don't forget Beginners mind like I have a checklist before I go on stage Yeah of like things like don't forget you have to do this Ah, and the I I don't think we're rare in that we need constant reminders Yeah, and that's what the channeling journals are and so for me as someone who got to read all of them Well to be in like one of your close friends Mine your mentors like oh this from the 70s. This is what he was thinking Uh had a profound impact on me Both the why the wise aspects and here's where he fell short. Here's where he struggled here's Yeah, well, I mean the thing that you hint at more with gary than carlin was like gary could be a bad guy From like anecdotally it's not sure in the you guys kind of hint at it But like he could be a fucking asshole Well, we tried to show it and that always comes from gary slipping like oh He is living in his ego. He is being competitive or jealous So the way I tried to show that in the documentary was this sequence with ricky gervais So ricky gervais and him have this plan where gary wants to interview him for the dvd extras for the larry sander show and ricky's doing a show where he's interviewing his Comedy heroes and they decide that they're gonna do it on the same day. They'll do both. Yeah, both interviews and gary tells ricky or ricky's people just Don't go in my house I'm what you know, I'll let you know when I get home and then we'll set up I guess he got home and like it's fully set up You know in the backyard the crew's there And gary for some reason feels really violated by this. It's an incredibly strange sequence in your it's just you don't know what's happening gary sander, I've never met ricky before so this is actually uh Thrill uncomfortable. Yeah, and it's very revealing of that side of gary. Yeah, just he feels violated And we don't know what happened. We don't know why it happened It could have been a miscommunication that gary doesn't know anything about Doesn't mean ricky gervais did anything wrong. I doubt he was just like let's trick him and get in the house Right, so it's mainly in gary's mind that he's Wasn't listened to yeah, so it's hit some nerve but then how gary handles it is by just uh Trying to create a very awkward moment because the cameras are already rolling when he walked in the house And it's almost like on some level. He's like you want to see what awkwardness is like You think you're the awkward guy? Let's go. Let's see how awkward you can get Which is both artistic and funny but also cruel Right I didn't know people got it in the dock because to me the point of putting it in the dock Wasn't to give ricky gervais a hard time. It was to show this is what it was like when gary turned on you Right And it's rough And then gary, you know, he would he justifies it as almost like an art experiment. Yeah, but Or he's teaching ricky something, but really I think it's hostile Yeah, the most part he looks there's a shot of gary. I remember from the kitchen where he kind of looks deranged Yeah, he looks like he's having is going to mental Something's happening a darkness that I don't it seems like he didn't turn it on you very much But he he saw but he did turn it on people we know that was like seeing his wounds like there's the wound Gary's an incredibly giving person Uh amazing person but for all of us if if you walked into us at the wrong moment And you saw the pain the thing that we struggled with the most. That's what that Looks like. Yes. Yeah. I don't want to say this like I've never felt like but there are moments where I've recognized that look of like, oh, that must be what I seem like When I get violated or feel shitty or whatever Or maybe it's the same look when you give gary a script for larry sanders and he hates it And in his head what he's he doesn't want to be cruel, but all he's thinking is I'm so tired and now I have to fix it Yeah, and now I hate you. Yeah, because I'm too tired. I don't even know if I can and if the show's bad I hate myself. Yeah, like like you're walking into that spiral. Yeah, you know if the show's bad I I don't exist anymore. Yeah, and we know that from some of our friends their standards are high And their self-esteem is so important That when they think it's going down. Well, yeah, it's a weird thing where they're letting you into this sacred process It's so touch and go self-esteem wise and they're going like can you help me And you people like you and I are Want to help them Just want to for a myriad reasons But we want to help them and then if if it's not if we can't then we feel fucking awful And but they they feel worse Yeah, because they're the one who has to jump out of the plane because the stakes are so high It's not like it's okay if this episode's not good. Most of them are good. I'm not worried about this one. Yeah, it's like The whole thing goes down. Yeah with the quality Dropping or the humiliation of being in something that you're not proud of that you can't stand behind And it's funny because when I was reading the journals I was like, this is pretty good because there's nothing negative about me I worked with him for many years. You know and then at the end of one page It would he made a list of everyone who had let him down that year and I was number two And I think I let him down because I left the larry sander show to shoot the cable guy Right And I didn't he never told me he was upset about it I just got a movie green lit. Did you ask him or did you just say like it was just a I wasn't the showrunner. I was just like a staff writer. I don't even think it mattered If I was there or not and so I don't think anyone really escaped that sensitivity But I've been there where like things are falling apart and you get really mad at someone and you're like, wow, that's way too angry But it it's that panic of failure. Yeah If someone in in this job is upset, it's because They're about to fucking bomb. Yeah, because they counted on other people and they and they failed them. Yeah, uh hyper vigilance This goes to your three year planning of everything, right? or yeah, and in general um, what is the difference between being present and in the moment And not it is hyper vigilance hyper vigilance is a definition of being out of the moment If I'm sitting here with you and I'm scanning I'm going to wonder Do I look terrible in this thing? I wonder what clip neil's gonna put online on instagram Fine, but I'm saying I'm saying I've been doing that also. Yeah, is that not part of Being a person it is but there is a version of it, which is just You know where you really feel like I'm just missing things like you know letterman did some interviews in recent years I think one of them was on marin and he just said, you know, I feel like I missed a lot of the fun of the show Because I was so worried about the show Yeah, and and that's what it is. It's like are you missing out on life? Because you're worried about some other aspect of life. Yeah, like can you really drop everything and be present? Right now. Yeah, there's a thing that david milch always said to me creator of uh NYPD, but yeah, and and deadwood and deadwood co creator was steven bochko if we're gonna get the credit Let's go this relates in some ways, but he would always say don't everything about writing when you're not writing It's a complete waste of time to go. Oh, when am I gonna write? How is it going? Pressure to deliver because it's all wasted energy. It doesn't get you anywhere He's like only thing about writing While writing just get your ass in the chair do your writing and then don't think about it at all It's he said it's like talking about going to the gym He's like, are you at the gym? No, then it doesn't mean anything. It's just wasted energy And stress and I think that's what about ideas though Well, I have things come up. I mean, I I disagree with an aspect of it. Which is I feel like it as Uh, you know stand up people or comedy people. We have a little Radar open at all times for something funny. Yes, which is a different thing maybe But I I do get what he's saying, which is you could torture yourself about I didn't write today I wonder if I'll write tomorrow I'm gonna go in. You know what? I do have your breakfast today. I mean I got tired so I didn't write I like what what does that do except ruin whatever moment this is? Yeah, you are you well, I guess you did go see Uh, cabaret eight times. I was gonna say are you like a helicopter parent? Do you worry a lot? Well, that's that helicopter as much as I really You know enjoy it. I enjoy seeing what everyone in the cast is doing because the show is pretty remarkable And it just brought me an enormous amount of pleasure to see it. I don't have anything to give to it I'm actually just taking from it and what's that feeling of watching maw do it What's the what is it feeling? Well, I'm just very proud That she can do it that she has the courage to do it I'm proud of her level of commitment I think about the entire journey of her whole life to get to the place where She's that skilled and that she could be that open and risk-taking as a As a performer anything that's good about mawd. I credit leslie. Yeah, I think am I right? Let's give her 80 percent Like like talent, but I don't but what do you what do you think is you? I don't know. I mean for leslie. I think she she uh In terms of performance always talked about commitment Oh always talked about the only thing that's embarrassing is when you're not committed That's interesting, which is something I still can't even learn. Yeah, but uh from me Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean I I had you know my kids in movies from the time they were like tiny And I think they got comfortable Being in front of people and expressing themselves Expressing yourself was valued And so I think over the course of many years and we didn't do that many things It set in like this is a good thing to do. It's good to Make art. It's good to connect with people. It's good to take these types of Risks that thing about not committing is embarrassing. It's great. Yeah Right like when you see someone in there a half out of the scene And you know, they're thinking about is this going well or not? Yeah I mean it's the same as what I'm talking about for myself, but you could see it in certain Actors that they're not gone. Like some people you see them. They are just gone. Yeah, and that's a real skill I think you and I let's take this as an example are worried about being boring As comedians, it's like are we am I fucking boring or podcasts like it's fucking boring because it's not that Jokey. It's not the pace. It's not like the thing. Yeah, so I think A little bit of taking yourself out of it. I think you owe it to other human beings to ask yourself every once in a while Am I being boring? Yeah And I don't think it's like it It's counter to being present. That's a big lesson to In terms of stand-up that when I pay attention to it, I do better which is It's okay to not get some laughs if it's all interesting if the ideas are interesting people will stay involved If you have something new to say or or deep to say And I always have to remind myself of that like that's what takes me out of terror of not getting the laugh Because and this might be enjoyable to watch Even if some of these things aren't scoring yet. Yeah. Well, that's bernie mac. I think told godfrey like you don't have to kill the whole time You just kind of have to it has to be like You and interesting the whole time, you know, when you think about like who's who we've lost That you miss You wish they're out there making stuff. I always think about bernie mac But I always think patrice, but it's the same It's kind of the same thing and and there's a lot of those people but bernie mac you go. Oh man We needed more bernie mac. Yeah. Well, he didn't he I don't he didn't have that much film material That's the other thing worse patrice had Has a good amount and if all you and if you dig online for patrice stuff, there's great stuff Yeah, and you could go i'm gonna watch an old opium anthony with patrice and he's talking for two hours Like there's a lot of patrice was great at being fucking Rivetingly interesting. Yeah, even if you don't know what the fuck he's talking about and it's incredibly misogynistic You're like it's I he at least believes it Or believes it that day or thinks it's funny. Yes or thinks it's funny. Correct Um, and the what do you do with the hyper vigilance? It I'd also like to say i'm sure it's helped you Oh, absolutely. And I think that's why it's hard because when you're hyper vigilant as a producer You're a good producer. Mm-hmm, but if you go home and you're still in that head You're out of the moment. How did you learn to put the sword down? I mean, it's I think it's a Life long quest, you know, there are times where you're like, okay, when I get home, I'll take a shower I'll try to end the day. Yeah, or I'll do tm Or you know, how do I not care? But I feel like I did work hard on it and then it also naturally Happened that I just I'm really accomplishing nothing By thinking about what happened on the set today and how how much could I reduce the amount of time? I think about it Yeah to be here with the kids because I wouldn't when my kids were born I would sit sit with them. They'd play on the ground and in my head. I'm just like, how good they don't like that Script and just do you And it takes a while to go. Oh, this is ruining this But but when it you feel like the survival of your family is based on That you're going to figure out how to make it work Uh, it's hard to drop because you really feel like it's part of your parenting to be able to make a living Yeah to provide for them. Yeah, so it so that that's just a lifelong quest to quiet the mind, right? Like And and what good do I get out of it? Yeah, it's and it is hard because it did help a lot Yeah, but it didn't help me playing with blocks the podcast. There you go Okay, you know that I mentioned on the blocks special on netflix that I wore a thing called a pavelach It's a way to incentivize Behavior within yourself because we all know these bodies are hard to control You can set it to vibrate Or shock you a little bit with a little electric like that's like aggravating But memorable in that you will change your behavior like about a month ago I kept pulling on my beard and I wore the pavelach for a few days and whenever I would pull on my beard I would shock myself and your body Intuitively knows to stop pulling your beard. It's basically like a great way to help yourself It's really good if you're a heavy sleeper. It'll wake you up. It'll vibrate on your wrist. 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I guarantee it workaholism It's the same thing and that's a different thing for me, which is like, you know the safety of I can eat You know is a big Is a big thing just from coming from a background parents who had financial problems at different times Where I just thought oh you better be on your game. You don't want to have to deal with any of this and Also, I think, you know, you get a certain satisfaction from work going well That you gotta I we get a lot from comedy dude. Yeah identity purpose Meaning Like I'll and then money and all that other shit, but like more than anything It's the it's that you know Like-minded people and similar goals and all that stuff when you Think about workaholism. Are you trying to obviously addiction is trying to get away from? A feeling is the feeling you're trying to get away from the like general existential Dread, you know, it's hard for me to know like when I was a kid. I really got a kick out of just 1970s show business and I think is you know, whatever struggles I was having It could be solved by Don Rickles on the Mike Douglas show I just got an enormous amount of joy and in my mind I probably created a this perfect wonderland of hollywood where Bob Newhart was hanging out with Frank Sinatra and the mandrel sisters And so that became a goal like this will solve your problems. Can you enter that world? It'll be it'll be safe there. Yeah, and then feeling like you have to serve it by doing a good job Like oh, I'm gonna get kicked out. Yeah, if I'm not doing a of this thing a good job Yeah, and so what I always think about is what does healthy creativity look like what is what is the reason to Right, what is the reason to make a movie? What is the reason to do stand up and it sounds corny? But if in your head you think well It's healthy for me to tap into creativity. I think that it's as close as I get to thinking about God is just The you know, whatever universal intelligence just where does it come from? Like there's something fascinating about that any idea pops into your head, which I like um, but also That it's a gift to people, you know for you to share your story and your pain and turn it into comedy It helps people and it makes them happy or it makes them feel less alone Or it helps them figure out ways that they can navigate. They can draw strength From it, you know, we've done specials with gary gullman and chris cathard about, you know their mental health challenges and issues with depression and they would get tens of thousands of uh emails and posts saying This is I needed this so desperately and it really helped me. I'm sure you yeah as well and that I think is I got 11 000 I think that's create that creativity at its best and it's purest is It's a it's a giving gesture and a loving gesture And you know the other side of like ego paying for shit liking yourself. I think it's fine. It's just the proportion It could be better, you know the more like if I think about no, I'm doing this to say something I kind of do a better job Most of the time and do you feel like you're tricking yourself into telling yourself like no, this is Yeah, it's probably half bullshit, but That's fine as long as you get there as long as you know, uh, if I think about uh You know, like surprisingly the the movie that people walk up to me about the most is this is 40 That's the one that people talk to me about all the time because it's just Here's how we're doing how you how are you doing? Yeah, you know and That's what's uh meaningful to me And I think it connects deeper with people because they they sense it like yeah, you know I'm sharing something to help you out and it's not just me sharing like You know, it's made up. It's the ideas of everyone in it. It's you know things that we've noticed about our friends Yeah, uh things we've noticed about ourselves, but I think people sense the offering like How are you doing? You know and because people walk up to me and they're like, oh my god, that's the movie watch all the time And I'm like, why do they watch it all the time? There is something about it that they're relating to It's like the there's a thing the that level something emanates in you Is the level it travels to and other people So it's like the most personal arguably thing you've done We're one of and then that's and it gets from like the realest deepest level and then it travels That's where it goes to and other people. Yeah, which is fucking great That would be the upside of workaholism I mean like or or what you're saying is if you do things for the right reason They'll be received for the right reason. Yeah, and I also think that workaholism, you know implies Trying to escape something with the work that you're self medicating, right? You know, so you're having a bad day, so you just want to hang out at the comic store all night Which isn't always the worst thing, but I think that There is healthy super hard work That's not demented and dysfunctional And so it's like can you try to get it to be that and not an avoidance of yourself or something You know, like if you made a movie because you just wanted to leave the house That's the wrong reason to do it. Have there been moments where you're like, I'm fucking up Oh, yeah Like with them just like you're producing too many things you're shooting too many things And you go like, why am I doing like this is I need to take a week off or I need to Yeah, I mean, I think I definitely slowed the whole thing down because you know The story of my career is just no one wants it to make anything And so we all wrote a lot of stuff And then suddenly they're like, well make all your stuff. And so for a few years We were making three movies a year. Yeah, which is too many Yeah, and so it was just surviving it and trying to support everyone and have everyone dig deep to Do as well as we could do with those opportunities, but it wasn't a pace I ever was seeking And so it's not really screwing up. It's just an odd timing thing It's like when somebody gets really famous Usually, you notice that in the next two years they make way too many movies. Yeah Well, you get a lot of opportunities. You can't believe the opportunities you get to like I want Yeah, I don't want to say no to any of this. You've waited your whole life to to work And then you're trying to manage it and um, so There's a natural Thing there that you deal with. Yeah, but everyone we know has had that moment. We're like, oh my god I'm in. Yeah, and then and then you're just trying to handle it. Yeah Kevin Hart stayed there. He's gonna about to pop up and promote something people pleasing which surprising Do you ever feel like a power broker? Because you can help people so clearly you helped you like I don't want to say you made people stars, but Without you. Yeah, you champion people and then did you ever feel that because it seems counter to people pleasing Meaning people wanted to please you so that you'd help them become a star I think people pleasing is almost more just in the moment, you know with everybody just like a general Is everyone okay with me? Like I love that book The Untethered Soul. Have you read that book? I think I downloaded it and not read it. Yeah, but so it's it's all about how You have an irrational expectation that you can make every single moment of your life Work perfectly That the person will like you that you'll say the right thing that everything will be fine And it's completely irrational And so you're almost on egg shells trying to handle everything All the time like everything's okay as long as I don't screw anything up And I think that's a destructive headspace to be in it's better to go, you know, I'm a good person I'm doing my best. Yeah, I can just relax Approximately like we'll throw the throw the dart and it'll land on the board somewhere Yeah, I'm just fine if like I don't need to obsess like that like I that that's destructive To to be in that type of headspace. I thought of that a lot this year about texting Because during covet I got insecure because I thought The people who haven't checked in on me don't care if I die Right like it was almost too clear a thing Like there were certain people that were like how you holding up And then there were people that you like that you did not hear from In those two or three years and you thought wow, I'm not even on their list I don't die. Oh, yeah for a check-in. Yeah, like a health check-in. Yeah And I started getting neurotic about it and then I thought a lot about well, who am I checking in with Right and almost in a manic way. I got very neurotic about it And then did you make a list? No, I never made a list But I just like I was aware and I felt bad about it And then I realized well, I'm doing it to people too because we all know too many people like when you're in comedy We know hundreds of people. Yes, but one day I was uh, not sober And it just hit me like I'm going to forgive myself And I'm going to forgive everyone and have no expectation for that only in the realm of texting In the realm of like how often we all make contact with each other. Yeah because I feel like especially in our business You might go on the road with somebody and have a very intimate week with someone And then two years later. You're like, I haven't talked to them since like we talked for like seven hours a day Yeah for a week. Yeah And there is a place in you where you could feel bad about it But it's also irrational to think of the hundreds of people you're interacting with And every time I make a movie that cruise 100 people. Yeah, so if I make 20 movies 2000 people It that doesn't really make any sense. So I decided to let myself completely off the hook in that And it really made me feel better all year I mean, and I don't know that's I've never had that issue meaning I just see this I see like comedy shows as like I say it's like a cruise ship And sometimes I see you on the Lido deck And then I won't see you I saw you when you were doing your producer skill thing in was in february. Yeah, and now it's August hadn't seen you. I assumed you were good Jimmy said he saw you. Yeah, I'll see you. I'll see you. I'll see you on the whatever the podcast deck Why do we text? Yeah, yes Because I don't want you to die exactly, but that's nice that you forgave yourself And what what were you not sober on? That's a very good question Although I have to say like, you know, we've talked a lot about everything that's happening with the mind expanding ayahuasca and mdma and mushroom and all that and I definitely think Just great stuff to be learned from all of it. I'm fascinated by it I don't I haven't had the ayahuasca courage yet But I I think it's in my future you would love it It's you know, it's gary connected. It's it's it is that world It's a deeper Level it's arguably the deepest level of that sort of mind shift And spiritual connection. Yeah, it's the the most actual palpable longest term one you can Do like seven hours of direct contact and then you keep it with you. Man, does that scare me? Which is the reason to do it. So I'm gonna work up to it. Well, what about it scares you? Because you're already there. You're already like constantly Kind of swimming in it. Yeah. Well, that's that's what I think if I need to get my head around I guess there's I used to have panic attacks. Uh-huh. And so there's a part of me that Gets afraid of experiences which I cannot end You can but it's gonna be a while Exactly. It's food poisoning. Well, it's you know what it is It's surrender. Yeah, it's letting go which I think is maybe the most important lesson or block For me to learn to really Let go. I remember I was on a plane once to Australia and I had this very Very strong feeling the most spiritual feeling I've ever had in my life of a voice saying Surrender And it was I don't even know what it was. It was unlike any moment I've ever had and I feel like ayahuasca in a way is the Little did you watch the little Richard documentary? Yes, I did. He had a on a flight to Australia as well And what was it? He found god basically or he like went back to god He also like disavowed a sexuality which I was hope I was hoping you would do but Um, stop being straight. Yes. Um your body. Yeah, it's funny the amount of guys on here Who all confessed to body stuff? Yeah, I me included in terms of just like Gripping maren caught me gripping my love handles on stage one time in a very subtle way and I was like felt But what is your body stuff? Well, I think, you know, do you look less fat and you've looked? Yeah, that's that's the goal Yeah, but I think I'm always thank you ozampic I well, I have a funny ozampic story, but I always am at a weight where people I look like I just lost weight That's very funny. That's that's my way and true. That's your that's your weight Yeah, we call it the daevarath in the business He's very skinny. He's very skinny. Yeah, but in my head, he's overweight Yeah, he's like he's big boned. Yeah, so every time I see him. I'm like He just lost weight, but he hasn't in decades, but um, I went to this vitamin guy Give me all these vitamins again. You can't don't look up the vitamin guy. You can't get there You gotta use net worth minimums. There's just a lot cutting edge cutting edge. Yeah And so he gave me all these vitamins and they gave me like a shot Give yourself like the shot this Once a week with this take all these vitamins for this reason Now I'm so dumb that I don't ask what the shot is Like I don't know what the shot is I mean, I may have looked at what the name of it was That didn't recognize the name. This is what berry bond said about About steroids. Yeah, go ahead. So I so I never like you're just rubbing the cream on and so I take the vitamins. I'm really good about the vitamins, but I like I'm always uncomfortable Giving myself an injection because I literally just think I'm gonna have an air bubble and die Like I just have an irrational I'm gonna kill myself by accident So so shot I was thinking like a but you're talking about a needle and a shot in the butt. Yeah, right So I I do it randomly like I'm not being good about it You know, so over 20 weeks. Maybe I did it six times or something like that Supposed to do it every day. Supposed to once a week. Got it. So I don't really do it enough, right? So then We check the blood work. All looks good. Everything has gotten way better And uh, then they give me slightly different vitamins and the shot and then I go, what is this shot? And I think it it's not ozepic but like basically ozepic and then I thought This guy didn't even tell me he was giving This drug Like he never explained it to me like I'm giving you this as part of it Like we didn't even talk about what the shot was or that so I was just laughing like I was almost tricked into taking Yeah, you didn't be involuntary That's funny. So you got like it's like me too, but with ozepic Yeah, and it's hard But I always feel like I could take ozepic and still gain weight. I feel like I'm the person I could pull that off that what you're capable of. Yeah. Yeah, I could I could beat It's like the people who would beat the gastric bypass They would pop the like chris chris. He kept popping the fucking stomach thing multiple times apparently Yeah, what's your you like I think you just like snacking. Oh man. I mean I feel like food as a Self medication reward Shame eating like it's all it's all good. What's your shame? You know just binging knowing it's bad for me And then taking it too far and I've gotten so much better because like our house doesn't have a lot of junk in it That's the key. You just can't have it. Yeah, I can't have it But I you know I find ways to sneak but when I was a kid, you know, my mom would buy like Chocodiles remember chocodiles. Yeah, it was like twinkies with chocolate on them And we liked them so much the second They got in the house. I would like hide half of them I would just open it up and hide half for my brother and sister So that I wouldn't not get enough of them And when my parents got divorced, I used to like make myself hamburgers and grilled cheese sandwiches and eat Entomance cake with it and like there was a lot of food happiness Got it And no one could neither parent would say don't because they were never vying for your attention It was in one discussion of health that we never my entire health those are the rules Like there's never like eat that because it's healthy don't eat that because it isn't healthy Literally no discussion of health. I didn't eat broccoli until 12th grade when it was in a Chinese food I I I never ate salad as a kid The vegetables generally corn or peas from a can I just didn't even know what healthy food was and then when I lived with sandler when we were young comics We love to eat we would talk about it all day like oh man, we're going to go to red lobster tonight And and even now we'll reminisce about meals. Oh god, you remember that night Went to that restaurant with that Chinese food. What's great is everyone hearing this can hear sandler doing it Do you remember that place? Oh, buddy, buddy the beef steak charlies, uh, you know like yeah, and so That was all also connected to being a bad athlete because I was the youngest kid in the grade I just resented Anyone who was accomplished with physical things So it's it's also a struggle to not be angry At the idea that I have to do anything for my health exercise food Like it it feels connected to somebody that tortured me. What's the best shape you've ever been in? The best shape I've ever been in was It's so funny Uh, someone asked me to do a movie but it required me to be kind of ripped And I said no because I'm like I'm not gonna get ripped How much how much time would that take and so I can't eat anything the best shape I've ever been in I think maybe during govid. I lost like 17 pounds and got Healthy probably out of just general health terror And did you like it? I liked it but not enough. I mean you like not as much as you like food It's so hard to not eat like bread Like it's so easy to not lose weight Because like you can eat great all day And then at the end of the day you just like bread with your chicken And that day's killed And and that yeah, and then you are like well this day is fucked. I might as well have ice cream Exactly where are the chocodiles and I have a theory which I talked about understand them once But it is sort of what I always think which is I think no matter how much you eat you can only gain one pound a day So once you let it go And by the way, there's no science behind this. I really feel like you can only gain one pound in a day So if you're gonna let it go really let it go. Oh, right because it's you're already you already gained the pound Yeah, it's not gonna be two pounds For some reason I've decided that science. It is not science, but that's what I decided Yeah, well somebody a buddy of mine made the observation and I think is right if you drink tea with dessert it melts The dessert really in your stomach. It doesn't at all But just the weird things that we all go like, you know what? I've intuited something. Yeah, that's entirely made up and pure nonsense. All right Um final two questions. What things have you done that helped you with all this shit? Meaning therapy therapy. Uh, yeah, I've been in therapy since I was 22 or 23 I've done some ketamine treatments. Okay. Did you like I did like that I thought that really helped me with anxiety. Oh good a great deal. I think I got a lot out of that Um guided like you would take it and talk or take it and someone's there to make sure I don't Do anything weird, but they're not really asking me any questions, but I I did have a very positive response to it. Great. Um, you know, I'm a self-help junkie I just read everything to the point of drowning in it. So for me it's easier to go loving kindness Like can I can I get the whole thing into like two words? Yeah, you know or there's a thing in buddhism about like how you should be like a cylinder where you're just completely open And if you don't have your story and you don't have all your theories You could just enjoy life And like if I just remind myself of that The day goes better. Okay. So I ask everybody and you as somebody who's done this a lot movie of your life Who plays you? What's the arc? As a guy who's made five movies about his life, uh, but I'm talking about like, what's the jet-op top biopic the the That's funny. Like what is the what's the story? It is funny because when you make Movies in television, you are always pulling from your life, but pieces and it's so I always say it's like a third Third me a third completely made up a third observations of my friends. Yeah So if it was all me I think the most insecure thing I could say is I can't even think of anybody Uh, exactly like me Because it requires a certain lack of charisma But what's the story? What is the story of what's your story? Meaning do it from like childhood to now like what's the arc? This is fascinating to me too because you made so like because parts that you had scenes and freaks and gigs of like watching Yeah, uh, the mike douglas show and like the meaning of that. That's probably why it's a hard one because yeah I've mined it and spread it out. Yeah, so many things Oh you mined and spread it out even as like in other people's movies when I'm just pitching them jokes or scene ideas or emotional ideas Like I've just you know, like took it all right. Who are you in 1980 and who are you now? Like that's that that's that's what I'm looking for. I'm always trying to just understand that I guess what I'm saying is the reason why I've made all the movies on some level is as a way to Understand something so in some ways like you sit down and you write a screenplay to figure out why you're writing in the screenplay Right, you know, why do you write funny people right and then years later? You realize like wait a second sandler isn't one of my comedy friends. He's actually my mom Right, right and oh and what am I exploring? I'm exploring Is comedy a solution to all of our emotional problems or the thing that holds us back Because we're so obsessed with these careers that we're not getting relationships and we're not connecting in a healthy way because we're worried too much about our success and being funny and so In a lot of ways, you know a lot of what we're talking about like is in funny people but spread among different characters Yeah, because it's not like is this worth it and is it why am I doing it? And what do I sacrifice by being so obsessed with comedy? So maybe my story would be a little bit about comedy as a way to survive And the arc to see what I was feeling that made me need comedy to survive emotionally and to slow to try to slowly let it go to be a Good person a good parent a good husband, but can I still stay funny if I lose the madness that built it? Yeah, well that seems like your life's about balance. Yeah, trying to trying to balance it and still hold on to it because a lot of people say You know, you'll hear from people when they got sober They say I really thought that was part of my creative process and then I realized it was just holding me back. Yeah Yeah, it's also just a reflex. Yeah, if you've been doing as long as you or I have it's just like you just like Fucking your brain will just go like a joke that you're not like I need to think about you just like it'll just come Can I be sane and still good at this? Yeah, or can I be sane and maybe I don't need to do it? Yeah, maybe it's like that was enough and Go go do something else Well, yeah, I always feel like that like I'll I'll if I don't feel like I need to do it won't do it I'm doing it to be happy. Yeah, and if there's a better way to do it I'll just do that I'll do the other thing Sometimes I'll say I think I need to go into my poetry phase Like would it be healthier to write poems and not show anybody? Yeah, and not have any of the needs surrounding it But I also think that that's a lack of growth because then you just lost all courage to risk Sharing Yeah, well that would be the third act for you would be figuring out How much of each yeah Right, that would be the third act third act. Yeah, I had an idea for something. I don't remember if it was uh For someone else or for me, but it was that somebody finally got healthy and then they Made something like a movie or a play And the end of it would be that it was terrible Uh-huh, but they were happy and they were fine. Yeah. No, that's hilarious because it is like the opposite of there will be blood Where it's like no, I I'm finished, but it's it's terrible. But now it's all mediocre Yeah, I've learned I don't need it's fucking great That's why most rock and roll from older people tends to get weaker because I think those people get saner I totally agree Like or they or they go in it like I always say Billy Joel who I know you love did his career backward Where it was like he wrote love songs young And then he wrote like protest songs in his 50s and it was like What are you doing? We didn't start the fire the shit like that where it's like Um Judd Apatow was here, buddy. Thank you for thank you for making the time My pleasure. Um, the audience needs to know how far drive it is to get here the level of commitment You're talking about just like the the class levels you had to drive through I meant to go from Brentwood to Hollywood It's just like oh, just like locking the doors more. Yeah Is there like a level of lock? I can and like fucking hermetically seal the windows Like I didn't feel in danger, but I did feel like I was going around to gas to the length of the drive Judd Apatow, thanks. Thank you