 Okay, we are, we have started the recording, and I see we have a quorum. So good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us, including some long distance wireless travelers who have joined us. So my, my first order is to make sure that everyone can hear and be heard, and then I will be turning it over to Margaret, who will just give us a brief overview of today's agenda and we've also had some questions and answers and she may be summarizing that as well. So, as I call out your name, please just indicate whether you can hear and be heard Sean. Yes. Jonathan. Yes, Mike. Yes. Paul. Yes. Phoebe. Yes. Angelica. Yes, and greetings from Ecuador. Alicia. Yes, Simone. Yes. Ben. Yes. Okay, so we are missing a few people, but I think we will start since we have. And as they come in, I will make sure they can hear and be heard and I'll just keep checking to make sure that it doesn't end up that they somehow ended up in the audience rather than with us. And Margaret, I'm going to just turn it over to you to lay out the day. Yep. And I apologize. I came in as an audience member, not as a panelist originally, so I'm going to pull up the agenda. Can everybody see that. Yes. I'll answer for me. I can see it. So probably others speak, speak up if you can't so we're going to the big item today is obviously that we're going to talk about the cost estimates. But there are a couple of other things that we also need to take up. Denisco is going to talk about some phasing diagrams that they made for the school. The timeline for the project. This is in your response to questions that Phoebe, I think you were the first one to put this in writing was to say like, can I see how this is going to work. How a construction project just going to work on the site. We're going to revisit the criteria matrix in anticipation of Monday's meeting, which is will not involve a presentation, but we'll have a discussion. And then we're going to just look forward to the decision making that is coming because we're now at the point that the content has all been provided and we need to figure out which is the best option. I read in my cover memo yesterday. Yesterday, a couple days ago, if you read it, you know this it's it's not this isn't. There's not a clear cut decision here and so the discussion is really important. I want to in terms of questions that we had going to take this down for a minute, there was there had been I thought a really good question about the students, the question about how far students are walking and how many students are walking. Now as I think Mike noted at a previous meeting. I think busing is provided to everyone, Mike, is that correct, but the district did have some data. There are some students who who live very close to the school where there's no dangerous intersection that we don't but just about everybody well over 90% of our students are offered bus transportation and it depends on some of the school some of the kids who live in the neighborhood of Wildwood there are some sections sidewalks at other schools less so. There's a park or farm that has safe ways but Fort River is a little tougher because it's run by major roads so the vast majority of students even if they're within our legal guidelines of who we have to transport we transport many many more students because of what we would agree are dangerous intersections. And, you know, I think this very brief chart kind of tells the story, which is, you know, Wildwood is in a more residential neighborhood so there are, you know, more kids who could walk within the under one mile distance, and quite a few under the one and a half mile but the reality I think is because they're elementary school kids most of these kids are coming either on the bus, or with a parent right. Yeah. So does anybody have any questions about that before I take it down. Okay, so seeing none I'm going to take this down and going back to the content that didn't go is going to present. I, we thought that it might make the best sense because we think the most questions will come from the cost estimate information for the Dinesco team to review the phasing diagrams, which were included in the distribution but Donna, Tim and Rick will walk us through them so why don't we start with that. And then we'll toggle to looking at the cost estimates. So I just want to make sure Tammy can hear and be heard she has joined us hi Tammy welcome. Hi, thank you. Okay, great. Thank you. Oh and Rupert's with us to Hi Rupert. Hi, sorry I'm a little late, but I'm here. No, you're here. Thanks. Okay, so is that we just want to talk about the phasing diagrams then. Yeah. Okay, Tim. Why don't you take it, take it away. Sure. I'm going to share my screen. Just as a context for all the phasing diagrams that we're going to walk through. These are preliminary based on the designs as they are evolved or not evolved now so obviously everything can change. But they both have new construction options with the building complete by June of 2026. There will be site work continuing into the fall of 26 but the building will be available and ready for the start of school in the fall of 2026 with the renovation addition options that construction schedule was pushed out to the spring of 2027. And then there might even be final planting and finals I work in the summer of 27 but there's a small view of the difference of the schedule between new construction and renovation addition. Starting on the Fort River site with a renovation and addition option. The building itself will be constructed and renovated in two major phases. Here we show the initial phase which will demolish. The first phase will be demolishing physical plant kitchen kindergarten administration suite of the building and replace it with the new addition. The shaded area is the area that will be controlled by the contractor. It will all be fenced off access from children and anyone else on site will be controlled. The second phase will be to the site for school and contractor vehicles. Typically, and as will be the case here, contractor vehicles will not be able to access the site for a window during drop off and pick up to just make sure that everything is separated. Because the initial phase of the building is the main electric room, the kitchen and the boiler room. And it will have to happen during the occupied school that's going on while construction is happening. The way we've priced it out there's temporary boiler and chiller for the facility. Students will likely have to eat in their rooms as they have been doing with COVID. And then, you know, since some of the spaces are being demolished, there will be some shuffling that has to happen with classrooms gym library. The initial phase will start in August of 24 and continue to mid-year or January 2026. And as part of the initial phase, all of the mechanical systems that will be required for a functioning school will have to be installed including the geothermal wealth. In January of 2026, it shifts to phase two. The new addition will be complete. Sorry, there's probably some background noise you can hear. The contractor fence will shift. Closing off a new part of the site that feels completed to the southern half of the site will be accessible for school use with a new drop off flu. And then with all of the students occupying and learning in the new building, the existing part will be renovated. And this will bring us to the spring of 2027. There's an additional third phase that will complete the site work that will be happening throughout the entire construction process beginning in the summer of 24, continuing in the summer of 25 and when students are not on site and probably going into the fall of 2026. So the lines of delineation on a new construction project are a little clearer. Obviously, since you're not in the building that is occupied so the overall concept is similar but you're outside of the building so there is a fenced off contractor to the south of the site that allows them to complete the building. During this time obviously the fields will not be accessible, but behind the fence on the southern portion of the site. A completely functional building including fields drop off loops that were are within the construction area and the geothermal well field will be completed by June of 2026. And then a second shorter phase from June of 26 into the fall will be the completion of the site to the north demolition of the existing building and playgrounds and athletic fields on the north part of the site. And as with the renovation and addition option the new construction parking will be completed in phases as it is available to the contractor over summers and during the project. Moving to Wildwood conceptually it's going to work the same way, but without the same amount of room it's slightly more complicated and the pieces are a little closer to each other. Again we have a first phase that takes half of the building demolishes it reconstruction. You have the same separation of contractor traffic school traffic and space with on the site. It is a little bit tighter so the construction fence will be closer to the occupied building on one side. And the well field will be constructed closer to the building that is occupied. Some of these operations are noisy and there are options for noise mitigating fences that we would have to look into as the design is developed. Again the second phase is the other half of the site. The access flips from school to contractor, but the remainder of the building after the first half is constructed is renovated and completed with the smaller site at Wildwood. There will most likely have to be a time when this area shown here will have to be off limits to school. The reason that is is there's not enough area to do everything in a linear fashion, most likely there will have to be in this small area temporary parking during phase two, because there's not enough space outside of the footprint of the building in the contractor area to accommodate all the parking so during phase one, they will probably have to be some temporary parking configuration on that side. The reason that is not enough space on phase two simply because the Wildwood site is smaller and can't accommodate all of the parking while either one of the phases is happening. Moving to new construction on Wildwood, similar to Fort River outside of the building, you'll notice that you are adjacent to the building rather than to the south of it on Wildwood. The building is all this constructed within the contractor area, which allows the building to be new and fully operational for the June of 2026 and opening in the fall of 2026 phase two again is demolition of the existing completion of the site including play space, outdoor learning, parking, and then a final phase to put the site in its final condition, reconfigure any temporary parking that has to happen, and complete the site. Yeah, so, so why don't we just open it up to questions I'm sure people have some. Sean. Yeah, so two questions under under either site, are there opportunities to use other town properties to for lay down areas and to try to minimize the contractor area. And I guess this might be more for Mike for the Wildwood option. Where would the kids, I guess, go outside do recess things like that during that two year span when the schools being built. The first part about the availability, well, whether or not offsite area would help I mean it would certainly help for lay down area. The closer it is, the better. If the fields at the middle school were available that would certainly ease the congestion and the complexity of the phasing at Wildwood, it wouldn't necessarily speed up the schedule any, but the elements that have to happen would have that much more room. And they were most likely be less issues. Tim, a small first step toward offsite might be parking where contractor parking could be offsite and a contractor arrange a shuttle if it's a distance away from the site that happens quite often on impinged sites. And helps, because you could have 75 to 100 workers at the height of construction. And just to respond to the play areas for both. It's going to be tight. And if you just go back to phase one, I guess, Tim. We have in the past we've, you know, put down temporary play areas for kids. You know, it's going to be tight parking, although we'll have the sixth graders out so, you know, maybe we take a portion of the play of the parking area for some play and make it a safe, you know, put barriers, etc. There is absolutely going to be challenges on both sites, but more so on Wildwood as it relates to recess and outdoor play during the construction. The other thing too which we haven't spoken about is, we might be able to do some site enabling packages prior to August so maybe the contractor can come in, or a separate contractor if it's a hard bid. And do site enabling put up the fence before August maybe do some prep for some temporary play space or whatever on the other side so that when the students come back and of August or September there's everything's in place. I see three hands and Angelica's was up. I don't see it up right now but Phoebe, Jonathan Angelica all had their hands up Phoebe. Can you actually go down one slide to phase two for me. Okay, I will try to get some clarity so it looks to me if I'm looking at these dates right that there's not going to be if we choose Wildwood that there wouldn't be realistic play space available until fall of 27. Am I looking at these dates correct, because that's quite a bit longer than I thought it was going to be I thought it was going to be the year prior. I just wanted to clarify that. Someone else doesn't like that either feet. You know, I, we can. These are all preliminary where we put the play areas for the kids typically, you know, we try to put them a little closer, you know, the playgrounds themselves a little closer to the site, etc. Yeah, they will, everything will not be 100% complete and the kids will have to have additional temporary play areas for both phases. And again, though, you know, this is temporary do we move the play areas closer to the building so that they're full and up for phase two that there's no temporary possibility. And then I also I did hear, I did hear the idea of having them of having play areas at the middle school and then my question if that were even a possibility which I don't know that I've heard whether it is or isn't. But if it is how would we then ensure that all children could access that space, because it is down, you know, that steep hill. And using the middle school playgrounds would require some sort of universal access to it. And as we've discussed. That's not an easy thing. Or an inexpensive endeavor. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Jonathan, and then Angelica. Part of my question. So, but I had another little piece which was about the parking in Wildwood. It looked like a final parking wasn't until summer of 2027. But that that really can be done in the summer and it wouldn't disturb the students during the spring semester. Question mark. I think it's an example that it can be answered with the designers that develop now, it doesn't appear that the final parking in any way that we have laid out can be part of a single phase early in the process there's just not enough space to put 175 which is the final parking with now, and then to allow the area for the contractor to do all the work they have to do, including the well feel so, and, and then in the final design you want separation of bus and car traffic. And so to get all those pieces where they need to be in the final situation, what most likely will happen as well was there will be a temporary parking situation that is sitting at the final drop off loop. And, and then during that final phase that will have to be converted to its final condition. So, but to add to that to john, we don't need 175 during construction right we we just need enough for the existing school faculty but, and again, preliminary plans, we, we certainly will spend more time looking at these once we have a direction as to which site and which option but, you know, we've heard comments that people were commenting about the curve parking, etc. So we would need to dig into it deeper but we don't need 175 during construction but it still will be a inconvenience. No question. Angelica. If you can talk more about the traffic situation. I just looking at these charts that I noticed that the spaces for the construction, the contractor egress and the traffic egress are smaller in Fort River, and Fort River already has significant traffic issues I'm just wondering what are the plans for dealing with increased traffic issues or traffic patterns during the time of construction. A plan for site access will have to be developed including times that contractors can and cannot access the site, including where and where they cannot access the site during all phases. And that is certainly something that will have to be developed, but it is true that there are limited ways that you can access the Fort River site and you know the northern exit is the intersection of Main and East Street. So a lot of traffic there turning is creates issues so there certainly will be impacts during construction on either site. That will have to be studied and mitigated to the extent that possible but during the extent of construction. It will not operate as perfectly, not to say that it operates perfectly now, as well as it does there. Yeah, there can be no confusion that there will be impacts on traffic. So I wanted to go back to the temporary parking briefly, but we, we will need all of the parking, you know, 175 spaces or whatever it is, as of fall 26, because that's when the new building would open on either site. Right. So is that temporary parking that that we were looking at especially at Wildwood, enough to accommodate everybody as of fall 26. We, the reason that it's shown as temporary is that it would have to be in some way made to accommodate everybody even if that is not where the final design dictates it should be. So yes, absolutely. And maybe it's some other accommodation, which we haven't studied yet but there absolutely has to be at the day that the building opens parking for everybody. Can you go to the next slide. So, right, I think this is where you're saying the hang up is here Phoebe. Yeah. So, yeah, again. I'm going to navigate how this all plays out, you know, there won't, we would have to figure out their, their maybe itinerant staff that we're going to have to address or whatever so we would have to take a hard look on on absolutely what is required. And then the marked location line between the contractor area and the school area may have to change this is a preliminary diagram based on the design that we have now with what we have identified as temporary parking in this is not enough that red line is going to have to move to the north and make sure that the school can function when it opens. So tell me for both sites, what is the, what is the date that the contractors will be off site so everything completed, and everybody out so that you know the school is kind of whole again for a new construction. It will most likely be the fall of 26 with maybe some final planting but they wouldn't be mobilized with fences trailers in the spring of 27 and then if it's renovation addition it would probably extend the final into the summer of 27. So are those both schools or one or the other because I think the wildwood we had summer of 27. If I'm looking at this correctly for renovation addition, yes. But the schedule is similar for both sites it's the real variable in the schedule is the construction method whether it's renovation addition or new construction. Okay. Jonathan. To clarify that last point, occupancy of the new building and either new construction looks like it's, you know, by August of 26, but complete, you know, close out of the contract is different on both sites correct it look you know if you're not finishing the parking on wildwood until summer of 27 years, you're, there's still an engagement by the contractor. That is correct. Just to clarify though on fall of 26. In a renovation addition, the school will be continuously occupied. But you may not be redistricting until the following year, because there is a renovation happening into the fall of 26 so the consolidation of so if it's at Fort River Wildwood might still be operating in the fall of 26. Yeah, can you can you go to a ever and aside. One more. There you go so the, as you can see right so the new building, the new addition is where we've moved the students in, and we then would wrap up the construction of the entire phase. We're saying probably January, well, the renovate the existing classroom in January of 2026 through spring of 27. So, we wouldn't be bringing right 10 can you. Yes, we have that correct. Correct. So, you know, we would be moving everyone in until the entire building is complete. So the transition from phase one to phase two in a renovation addition what happened before completion in a new construction scheme. But final, if you want to call that occupancy of the 575 students would not happen until after fall of 26. Well, that would be fall of 27 we would wrap up the site work wrap up right so this phase would take us through spring of 27 and then if you go to the last slide on this Tim, the next slide. This would be during the summer so it would be, we would have everything ready to roll by fall of 27 for all of the students. Sorry, there's a lot to unpack here. A lot of questions I have. So, that's for an ad renault for the new though I thought it was the same timeframe for Wildwood and I'd like to take these separately Wildwood and Fort River. I, can we go to that phase three new for Wildwood and then. There's still a piece of this that is happening summer 27 so it'll be at the end of the summer 27 that officially everybody is off site. Yes. Okay. And then is that the same for Fort River. No. Okay, what is it for Fort River. It would be the fall of 26 there might be some lingering planting there's always somebody fixing somebody into the spring but it would be fall of 26. Okay, and then Tim you had mentioned that and I want to, I will, I would like you to repeat it because I'm not sure that I understood or got what you said that if it wasn't Wildwood there may be the instance where in in the fall of 26 kids would still be at the separate schools or I wasn't sure what you said there and it was something that I had not heard before so I'd like to clarify that so that we understand what you're saying. You're saying for the new construction baby. Yep. She's focused on new. Yeah, yeah. So, Tim, No, for renovation addition. The entire consolidated population of the two schools would not be at the construction type until fall of 27 for new construction at Wildwood, all 575 students would be there in the fall. 26, but there would be ongoing. Work through that school year. Okay. All right. I thank you I wanted to make sure that I had that. Very pure in my mind. There, there are literally a lot of moving parts here so. Yes, absolutely. Thanks. So I think we should could then move to costs costs. How much would we like to spend on all of this. How much you would like to spend her. How much. Unfortunately, this is cost thing out. All right. So Margaret I don't know if you want to touch on this I think the cover sheet addressed some of this that was sent out the other day, but I guess just to a few comments. One is. We had. Oh, God, I'm sorry. One is that we had two cost estimators. They're both third party. Those cost estimator who is the official cost estimator for the project is am Fogarty and answer hired PMC who's also a well known reputable third party cost estimator who also does a lot of public school work. The reason why we're selecting am Fogarty is because for lots of contractual reasons, et cetera, but they're Dennis goes and the designers cost estimator of record. So, just, you know, real briefly I think there's a lot of detail I think this is what people were looking for at PDP and you can see why we wouldn't have that information. It's not really PDP, but again, this is also preliminary, and the fact that we really haven't designed or started to design the school. We did go through the basis of design so everyone can understand how that now ties to the detail behind the summary sheets. Hopefully that's a little more helpful and clear. We have a really good handle on the site, whichever site is is selected we will do some additional testing on the site just to reconfirm everything. But I think the site has been developed well beyond study phase just so that we can have a really good handle on the cost and we thank all of you for asking the tough questions. Okay, Donna, can I just pause a second I want to make Allison has joined us and I just want to make sure she sure in here, we can welcome Allison. Hello, thank you. Okay, great. Yep. So, with that, I think, and then the total project budget which I'm not sure if I don't think we've gotten to that point yet to break out what MSBA share is compared to what the town share is but for now what we'd like to do is just go through I think these slides are familiar with everyone we did bring up the PV's and the ground source into the cost estimate above, and then the contractor markups are below. We still need to work out what's the best way to expedite and bid, both the PV's if it makes sense to do it from a separate individual contractor, or fold it into the general contractors work here. And then the ground source heat pumps or the well field as well but we did continue to break those out just so that people could see them. I think pretty much everything should be self explanatory the site work did increase over at Wildwood based on the additional information and understanding the topography etc. The work does not include any work down at the middle school fields. And then, I think we just the cost have increased since we have since PDP so in two months, the costs have increased we are still carrying 12% for design contingency I think everyone could see that on the cover sheets. We've made certain assumptions for the general conditions and markups as it relates to the duration of each of the options. And we're still carrying a percent for art in there. And so you can see down below the total construction costs for each of the options. And then if you go to the next slide. These costs right here as we're showing them are for CM at risk. And what we're doing as far as the total project cost is we're just taking a multiplier of 25 for 1.25 based on the total construction costs which still will need to be vetted a little bit further but it also includes contingencies. So if we went to a design bid bill chapter 149 or hard bid with a general contractor versus a CM, as we've talked about a renovation addition is really not a candidate for that just given the complexities and the safety of the staff and the students so we're not doing a design bid bill for that. And you can see what we did was, again, we're saying the cost estimators are saying, and we supported that design bid build is approximately 8% less of a CM so there is no necessarily back up to those numbers but again, the cost estimators just took a 8% discount across the board for DBB. So maybe it's a, you all talk. Sean why don't you go first and then I'll ask my question. I was going to see, Donna, do you still feel that design bid build is, is a fine option for the new three store I think you said you do but is, you know, given how much less expensive, it could be. I just want to make sure you, you all are super comfortable with that option. If it's a new construction. We fully support that Sean. And again, you know there are still ways that we can try to get ahead of the construction recognized and we want our documents as detailed and complete as possible. We can do early site enabling packages as well to kind of tee up the site, both from a putting up construction fencing etc but we could do a lot of that work over the first summer. Yeah, I'm going to chime in here and say I agree with Donna and Tim and Rick, you know I think that the new construction options are totally doable as design bid build. I think there, we will still need to have a discussion about the pros and cons of CMI risk and it's not a decision you need to make at this point. But there are you know there are there are some advantages with a project of a lot of complexity and I think one of the things when we get to it will be talking about as some of the challenges right now of procuring equipment and materials, given the supply chain issues that can be helped through a CM process, but it's not it's not a decision for today and and I think it's. This is an excellent way of presenting this because what it tells you is that gives you a kind of across the board version of this and then it tells you that there may be some savings in using design build but we don't again we don't have to decide about it today. Jonathan, I'm going to wait just to make sure that I don't preempt someone else so Jonathan and then Phoebe. That's fine. So I know you don't have the information I've got two questions which I'll try to ask quickly. I know you don't have, you know the official numbers on what will be the town share. I'm just curious, would it vary, or is it likely to be the same number. Speaking between the sites, and then the second question is, there were some potential offsite costs associated with the traffic report. Is that work in this number and if it's not will we get to see that because that will, you know, part of what we're going to end up talking about on at the next meeting is, you know, probably cost and how these are impacting our own individual decisions so I'd like to know all the costs if we can. And maybe we do. Wow. Tim, do you want to go to the last. Yeah. So, Jonathan to your point and thank you. At one point we had the offsite improvements as part of this and then I think we were everyone was saying no that's a distraction take them off so here we are so we have developed. These are kind of. We have had par engineering help weigh in on the signalization and the cost of the signalizations and the cost estimators priced out the lane widening over at Fort River and the roundabout based on Paris diagrams over on strong street. So you can see they're relatively close. We just, you know, solve the world's problems. You know, no, I think we would need to dive deeper to make sure that everyone's on board with these recommendations. This is helpful to have that gives me an understanding of the, of the larger impacts. Thanks. Phoebe. I mean, I want to say that, first of all, I'm kind of encouraged that these are kind of as close as they are. I think it's, I think that, yes, these are much better numbers than we had had originally. It makes it a little more real, which is nice. I wouldn't say better Phoebe these are these prices have gone up, but yes. No, but I mean better. And it feels like more real, if you will. I don't know that I'm explaining it well, but that's what I meant by that. So I know that we had discussed briefly at one point that there maybe it looks like the biggest difference still is site work. The field at Fort River that kind of stuff so I know that we had discussed the possibility of getting some additional or other funding for pieces of that. So one of that is built into this correct to this is all. This is not yet we're not there's no there's no, the cost is still the cost, how you fund it is different. Right. Okay. All right. Okay, go ahead Kathy I'll re-raise if I have questions. Okay, you segue it into what I want to ask about. Anyway, can you go back up Donna to where you show the site costs. Okay, so my question on the site costs. And I did read the basis of design, and then I did my best to try to read the cost estimates. So how much of the field at Fort River is being repaired. So, so that's my sort of, are we. It's an enormous field if we go all the way out to the river. So I think are you doing immediately around the building on to what extent is the ball field. We talked at the other day there's one pretty near the building where you're showing the contractor would be sitting doing the work. Can you bring up, can you bring up. So it's just a sort of, even if you just do with your little cursor like, because the it's bringing in. This is my lay persons we're bringing in dirt to raise the level. We're moving up some wetland around and we're raising the level of the foundation. And as I understand the reason the building costs are not that different is because the site costs is picking up the raising of the building. And so just how much of this field will be really usable year round for the kids. I mean year round you can't when there's snow and ice on it but the problem with it has been drainage drainage and I know that's one of the things you're trying to do so. And then just let me make a quick comment to respond to Phoebe's how we finance it. That is a separate discussion but we can begin having that right away with either site to some extent so similar to what I think of with the Jones library. We put together a package that paid for the whole thing. You know so, but but that that's kind of a separate issue on how we pay for it. And I just want to get a sense of what what we would be, we would be buying for that $11 million in site work, you know whatever that number is on the Fort River site. And I completely understand what we're getting on at Wildwood but I think the hope is we would get some fields repaired. And that's a good thing. It's not a bad thing to have done that. Yeah, yeah, so Kathy is, you know I think that is maybe a different way of looking at this the amenities or the cost of the site, although slightly higher over Fort River you're, you're actually gaining fields, as opposed to putting and retaining all the walls and, and such over at Wildwood right so everything that is in the light green, kind of away from the tree lines, all of that will be improved. So we're bringing up the soils for the fields we're putting in the proper drainage for the fields, as well as as doing what we need to do structurally, and for the high water table. When you say light green, I'm not seeing lots of different. Yeah, just the green like sort of the developed area right as opposed to the tree lines. So really, it's, you can see we have pathways and walkways, you know around the site around the fields, they'll all be ADA accessible universal access to the fields and the playgrounds, etc. So, yes, wherever there's construction, it will all be upgraded. Okay, that answers my question I was just trying to get a sense of. And I think that is the way to frame it we're getting we're getting something for that money not just we're getting getting something very positive. Well, you know I think, I think it's important to think of this as being, it's fundamentally different the site and the sense that you're making another major municipal improvement as part of the project, but there's a cost associated with that. And, you know we've certainly heard from a lot of people that these fields are are highly used so you know as I say sometimes unfortunately it's just money, right. And I'm sure the folks on the finance committee, Kathy which I think includes you would presumably have some concerns about this, especially the fact that it has to go to a vote the community has to support it so they're pros and cons. So, the one thing I would caution people is that I think it's a little bit dangerous to sell this as a, the focus needs to be from the MSBA's perspective on the project not on the value add. So, you know, I think in the in terms of the way we talk about in the way we're going to present it to the MSBA, it really needs to be focused on the building, which it doesn't mean there isn't the kind of value added proposition here with an associated price tag. Jonathan. Sorry, I realized that the first half of my last question I don't think really articulated well enough to get an answer. Yeah, that was fundamentally is the MSBA portion of this likely to be comparable building to building for new construction and new construction and rental and rental, or, or is, is there a variance. I don't remember from early on discussions about how the, the funding process works. There is, there is a small difference. When you reuse a building, you get a small percentage. And I think I calculated it the other day and it's about 1.8. I think on this one. Additional percentage of reimbursement. And that being a small difference in the overall pot because the reimbursement percentages only applied to what the MSBA will reimburse on. And I think you all remember from, you know, the early community forum diagram where I pulled up where the cap is relative to construction costs now. So what the MSBA does is they kind of say, everything off that's our cap, right, and then we only apply the reimbursement to what's left. And then on the ad reno there's a small additional piece for using the building so I don't think it's a reason to choose the ad reno because the difference would be quite small and and so if that's a helpful answer, Jonathan, I think it is. It would be safe to assume that that within a category. If there's any difference at all in the reimbursement, even more miniscule, you know the difference between what we'd get reimbursed for a new school while word versus a new school. Yeah, whatever would be. Now that that you can probably safely say Jonathan that I not even safely you, you will exceed MSBA's cap on the building costs right now it's 360 a square foot right so that's all you're going to get reimbursed on both sites and the same thing for site it's 8% of the building costs so when when you're comparing the two MSBA's reimbursement would be the same, but there's there's no question about that. So what I'm really getting as it's not going to help us decide between the sites. Yeah, they're not they're not participating in anything over their caps which you're going to exceed on both so that's another way of looking at it right it's like how will bear the additional cost at either side, which is, or whatever is slightly higher. It made more made a significant difference. When there wasn't such a big difference between the cap, the cap and the cost. You know, it actually, it was, it was significant but once you'd have to say well we're not reimbursing on. It's almost two thirds of the project right then what your your applicable reimbursement impact for Adreno becomes quite small. So, one of my reservations with the Fort Rivers has always been the, you know, the moisture issue and we've heard different technical experts say that there's ways to manage it or mitigate it but I guess I just, I want to put you on the spot a little bit and just say if we were to invest these funds in the Fort River site. Will the improvements made here ensure that we have no moisture issues either at the building, or on the fields 15 years from now, because I think that's what we're all thinking is 15 years down the road. Is there any potential there will be moisture issues because of specific to this site, or will these improvements completely address those so that we don't have to worry about that. Rick or Rick or Tim. I know it's a hard question, but it's a fair question right so we're doing everything. I don't know if Rick wants to chime in but we're doing everything that today's technologies provide. And it's the prudent thing we have. We've, we've edited both, you know, with all of our engineers and consultants to ensure that this will, you know, last the test of time or stand the test of time. I, I, you know, Rick, I don't know if you want. You know, if you had a building type or a design that depended on a basement. Certainly having, you know, groundwater three to four feet below your first floor area would, you know, cause one to do more and more to assure that you don't have a problem. If you were to slab on great project like this with bringing the building up a couple of feet. This would be a forever situation. I would not anticipate future problems from moisture from the ground. Can I just chime in on Sean is asking for assurances, are there insurances that say we're telling you this will work and we'll fix it if it doesn't I'm just, you know, because we are it's your Jonathan is laughing but I know Jonathan you were on the Fort River project so we also had this kind of assurance that this could be coped with right I mean with. And Margaret has said it's only money Kathy, in terms of doing it and pointed out that Boston is built on a swamp but so I just don't know to what extent. There is that Sean has 15 years I'd like to know 50 years you know that we that we really were we're not going to encounter what we have encountered in the past. Yeah, I mean I think to answer your question Kathy and we're not trying to debate it you know there aren't. We don't have an insurance policy that would say that we would, you know, be able to address this 1520 years down the road. I don't know what kind of insurance flood insurance policies there may be for the town to be able to do that, but you know the design of this is solid so this shouldn't be an issue. And to answer, you know we have continuously reached out, trying to find other buildings that have been built for over 10 years that have similar kind of characteristics and we haven't been able to get that answer for you yet and we've been pushed. Paul. And this is a really important discussion could you I would like to phrase it in a different way. If we said to you, we do not want water damage and that's the concern because we are living in a water damage area right now. If we do not want water damage for 50 years for forward. What would you design to say, we can almost guarantee what it is so would you do would you design something differently to say if we if your mission was to. We do not want water intrusion or the impacts of water on this building. Would you do something different. I see Rick's unmuted I don't know if he's going to respond the answer is no we wouldn't we would. This is the best approach to addressing the water. And I can answer just in a few ways I mean there are a certain number of ways that water can get into the building it can be there, which is why we're raising it out of the floor so it's literally above the water, or it can soak through the soil which is why we're adding the sub drainage surface layer, and we are also adding a vapor or water barrier under this lab so all of the ways that water can get into a building from below from the soil which is the issue. We are dealing with them specifically and moving the building out of the the threat for moisture to get in so you know the ways that are available to us with the technology that is there today we are addressing it from every direction. So there's no other technology that you would say well if you really want to go first class and make sure you would also do you would raise it three feet or something else like that, or put it on. I'm not sure what the technology is. Yeah, Houston has the one still just out. Certainly, if you put it on still for flooding you don't have groundwater moisture problem. But there's nothing you're leaving off that. There's there's nothing that you're leaving out that we're leaving off for having groundwater which frankly is everywhere. What is this a proximity of groundwater to the underside of the building is is actually a little higher in one location than the other, and it's a little different at Fort River than it is at at Wildwood Wildwood we talk about perched water and flow across varying soil conditions, but you're still trying to stop water from getting under the building. So, I can appreciate that the town has a heightened sensitivity given what they've been living through, but with a building with new ventilation to keep moving moisture out with vapor barriers that have improved significantly from what you would build and any site now to those existing buildings that didn't have one. Virtually everything that you could do, we're doing subsurface drainage, capillary breaks, raising it up, diverting water away and being able to drain it off by gravity and not depending on pumps. I just want to chime in and concur, I think, Danisco and their team with all the engineers have definitely made this building a dry building. I think that sort of taking it up a level that you know the fundamental difference in some ways in the question you're asking is that one of these sites is near a river and one of them is not. It's a climate change issue in a way. I mean I think that the site has been well described in terms of the flood hazards and the flood concerns, but the issue, if there was one in the future is probably not a 50 year issue, but it is a question just about flooding as it relates to climate change and I'm sure that will increase over time, and I know everybody's super sensitive to it, but I would definitely say that Danisco has done all the right things here from an engineering perspective. The question I have is not about water intrusion so if people have more about that, feel free to keep going. No way. Nope. I think that that. Thank you. I'm just wondering where, if, if you guys can pinpoint in the numbers that we went through where is the longer construction time at Wildwood indicated like where in those numbers. So, Phoebe it's in the detail, and it's reflected in the general conditions. So you'll remember a couple of weeks ago I emailed about the general conditions. So if you dig into the, to the detail of the invoices of the estimates you will see that there is a different number of months, and the two estimators took a different slightly different approach but came up with roughly the same number about this. So there's a monthly cost for having the contractor on the site. So what happens if you, if you look at that general conditions number which is not broken out here. Well, it's in the contractor markup line I shouldn't say that you're going to get a higher number for that on the Adreno versions, then you are on the new construction versions but there's a lot of other stuff in there so I would say what are we looking at 20, call it 26 million for contractor markups on Fort River and 24 and a half on Wildwood. If you look at the, those numbers on the new, the new ones, they're all lower. That's that is that item reflected. Alright, thank you. Um, can I have one more thing I also think that in terms of looking at the, the flood stuff so maybe I do have something to say about the water intrusion. I, I, from what I'm understanding from hearing from all of the people that are looking at this and talking about this in town right now. Is it the floodplain numbers that everybody looks at are like 100 years and longer. I mean, am I correct in thinking about that's the span of time we're talking about when we're talking about, you know, nature and water and that kind of stuff we're not talking about the immediate future we're doing everything we can to resolve what we can for the immediate future but if we're talking about numbers we're talking about well over 50 years. Correct. Yeah. Okay, alright. Well, yeah, I just want to jump in. I don't think that my understanding is that when it says 100 year it means it could happen next year. It doesn't mean it won't happen for 100 years it means, you know, and we've had 300 year. I mean, we've had every, it seems like every other year someone says this is 100 year event for us. So I think that I don't know much about climate change but it seems like it's moving quicker. It's not like it won't happen for 100 years but it could happen next year. That's the likelihood of something happening is what they say. Yeah, there's a it's it's in those female details but it's a percent Phoebe, you know, and so that that's the, the chances of it happening. FEMA's maps have gotten much better, you know on top of graphical but I think a couple people sent me pictures of the New Jersey school that was washed out and I don't think they had expected it to be. I mean this was just, it was one of those wasn't supposed to happen. So, I just live in New Jersey that would be the only reason I would know something about that. Um, I think I got one question that was emailed to me last night on the two cost estimators sitting down and comparing. I believe that happened there was a reconciliation between the two could you could you just describe that a little bit because I've never been. Yeah, what exactly what happened when they did what happened when they did that. As Donna said in the introduction and I said in my memo, it is a requirement so really good best practice for projects like this because the two estimators do their estimates in parallel. The estimator who is working for the designer is typically considered the estimator of record. And then there's a reconciliation which we did on Tuesday it took about four hours we went through line by line. They made adjustments based on, you know, there were some we caught some errors. The goal is to really kind of test the estimate of record and provide two sets of eyes. So, that was the process and then when the PSR goes in, I'll actually provide one of my jobs is to provide a comparison of the two, but they came in, you know very close at this level. I'm amazingly close, considering, you know, again, that there's not there's very little drawn a lot conceptualized but very little drawn. But there are any other questions on either. I mean we'll be we're looking at the high level of aggregation of pages and pages of cost estimates that we've received. One thing that I observed and trying to figure out where the higher costs were I know prices are up but I believe last time in the preliminary and we got criticized for this we had the ground source wells and the PV as below the below the line and I don't think we did the 25% on top of that so. So that alone would add about one and a half million dollars to the number now they're above the line and then when you do that 125. Am I right about that I mean so that's not necessarily a price increase it's calculated in a different way to get to the total. The markups when they did it the markups were on those line items. So pulling them up into the total, just sort of put some above the line and below the line. But we need to talk about possibly just subcontracting those out directly so that we didn't have to pay the the markup on them right as a potential option not a. Yeah, I think this was just an observation yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think I think the PVs are probably over stated by the time you put the markups in the cost estimates that we had gotten from solar design were. I believe intended to be all in numbers right. The ground source is a little more complicated especially depending on which site, but, and which option, but you know that to, if it goes hard bid versus CM we should talk about as well. There can be a false economy there too by splitting things up, having nobody responsible for the operation of an entire system. You know, the lines drawn on PV are pretty clear, the integration of ground source with with building HVAC operation starts to get murkier. I think the goal here was to make as close to an apples to apples comparison as possible. And the decision, you know as I said earlier about how we're going to contract the so we're going to procure it is a decision for the next phase, and there are savings and some of these items on some of these potentially depending on how that is managed. Yeah, you know I wasn't suggesting that we should split it up I was just thinking that that one difference in the way we got these two numbers was that roll up. Because I think we had also been asked, but with some public comments, what you just said Rick that it wasn't wise to break things out you really want someone responsible for the whole project so we wouldn't want to jeopardize the project in any way. And once we're at $98 million, it's, or 100, whatever the number is, you want to keep the risk as low as possible. So I'm I'm I'm trying to furiously make my notes and I've been thinking a lot about the matrix as well. And what I keep coming back to in terms of what I'm seeing as our major differences are like, you know, a roughly $2 million cost difference between the site. 22 months of construction at Fort River verse like 26 at Wildwood, and then the site work which at Fort River includes it looks like a larger place structure the fields, all of that. Am I missing large pieces. Because it seems like a lot of the other stuff is is more apples to apples we're getting it on one site we're getting it on the other site. So there are other large categories, as we you know we're going to transition to the matrix piece of this for Monday but I want to make sure that I'm looking at this the right way. Yeah, you're. That's a those are accurate statements Phoebe I think the only caveat I would say is that the play structures, etc and the play areas would be equal on both sides so so the difference is the kind of play fields. This is slightly different. The only other thing, which really when you're talking $8090 million really is a drop in the hot but the hazmat over at Wildwood actually the hazardous material abatement for the demolition of the existing schools slightly higher as as identified here, but other than that. Yeah, you're you're correct. Yeah, from my perspective, I'll be looking those the numbers for the traffic improvements. And what what they buy you are things that I'll be looking at. They looked a little bit weak to me the numbers seem low from concede what we're doing winding up with construction costs and our construction works by would want to review the those numbers with the town engineer. And what we're and what we're getting for most of them, they seem to be equivalent and I'm wondering about that. So, Paul the one, the one item at the Fort River intersection. Maine and East street is we are not that does not include reconfiguration of that that intersection that is so so that is a difference. We would love to improve that area more but that became more complicated, given what land would require reconfiguration, etc. So we didn't really want to go down that road. Tammy, and then Rupert. I want to add a little bit of what he said but also consider the differences during the construction phase and how it might affect learning. One thing to me and please a little more clarification is that if we were to build at the Wildwood site, there would be far more congestion as it relates to impacting student learning traffic, then it would at the Fort River site. Yes, yes, you are correct. It's a much smaller site and less area for the contractor and lay down the proximity to the existing building is probably similar, but there's more area for separation for parking for play for right over a while just by the nature of the size of the site. Rupert. Thank you. I wanted to go back to the traffic improvements. I was curious on the Wildwood site. Sorry, the Wildwood side, it says signalization improvement. And I'm wondering if that's still at that main street southeast street northeast street intersection or is that signalization improvement for why would some place else. The signalization is that he's pleasant it would be adding a signalization correct him. Yeah, that's adding a signalization at that strong and he's pleasant. That's great. I, that's the answer I was wanting to hear. Thank you. And can I just jump in there and then what is the signalization improvements for Fort River. We're replacing the existing equipment so that you can have better signalization maybe on a timed. Yeah. Right, right now. I was out there the other day there's no left hand turn and it's not a time time so it would pull it as he knows Northam was talking about a smarter, smarter light it's not a very smart light right now. Yeah, from from what we heard from power is just that it's old technology. Yeah, doesn't allow you to do some of the fancier. Thanks. So, um, you know, Bert's hand up still Rupert Rupert. So, one of the just one on checking on a detail that I saw in the estimates. I expected this that if it's a two story building versus a three story building the photo that the chaos costs go down is that because we can be doing more roof canopies. And they're less putting it on the roof, as opposed to putting it on a parking lot is that the reason for the difference on the on the photo about tear costs. PV on the roof has a lower unit cost than the both the panels themselves I've seen but all of the structure to support them in the parking lot at an expense to the canopy mounted PV. Okay, thank you. Just, can, while I'm on PV, one of our criteria is maximizing energy efficiency. Is there likely to be much of a difference between a new two story and a new three story. I'm sorry Kathy maximizing energy efficient everything we everything we saw modeled with the ground source and with the PV in terms of building envelope, but kilowatt hours what we needed. Is there a difference. I'm not saying there's sure there's a little difference but is there a 10% difference of 5% difference is there a much of a difference that we should know. It's less than 5%. It's probably less than 1%. The other factors that choice of heating system air source first ground source are much larger contributors. The difference in ratio of conditioned air to the envelope where the heat loss occurs is is is there but it's small and it's smaller than the difference between a new building and a renovation and addition. Okay, thank you. Phoebe. So we have an estimate that the town has estimates for roundabout elsewhere correct Pomeroy. What does that look like is it close to that 350 number. It's not close to that. Kathy you're shaking your head. It's, it's, it's quite a bit Paul's going to shake his head to know it's a different project obviously. And so this you're talking about a driveway roundabout versus a state highway roundabout so I think that that's, you know, but we know something about that construction project and so that's why what did want to talk with our 10 engineers to vet those numbers a little bit deeper. To me, one of the closest we've got maybe you mask and give us is down on University Drive where there's that small roundabout. So it's not four streets coming together. It's one coming in and then it slows you down you go around a curve. It's a really small one. When you buy the by the dorms when you go south. Anyway, it's, it's not a big fancy roundabout it's a little tiny roundabout that doesn't have cross traffic. So, and is I'm sorry is there is there any. Sorry, I have lots of stuff going on today. Is there any anything else that needs to be taken into account with that given that it's near that little pond area and the cemetery. I think I think as as it relates to the preliminary drawing. I think I think we're fine. We would obviously need to study that further to make sure about we did it in a manner that we were respectful of that intersection in the pond. John. Yeah, I think this did those additional side costs are helpful but for me, I don't think it should really impact our decision. I'm not sure the, the rationale for what we're doing at each site is necessarily consistent or, or, you know, what we would propose if we were to kind of sit back and think again, you know I've always my concerns about, do we really need a roundabout at the entrance of Wildwood, or would it be better to make improvements elsewhere down down the line where the traffic looked worse. So we do a roundabout at Wildwood's entrance but not do it at either of those busy Fort River intersections if we're going to try to really impact the traffic. The areas where the traffic scores were really poor so for me I'm going to probably ignore those offsite costs because I think we need a lot more thought about what we would do and get, as Paul said, talk with our 10 engineers about estimates and things like that. I mean, the entrance hands up and Mike's hand is up and I know Mike going to have to leave really too so Jonathan. I'll be quick. I just it's been, I've been reminded that that once upon a time both schools had larger populations to so once upon a time, something like 600 kids attended both those schools so those intersections in the past did deal with with higher levels of traffic and for me that kind of equalizes things I think Mike. Thank you. And I'm sorry that I do have a graduation, one of our schools is graduating in half an hour so I'll be here for about 15 more minutes so this may be jumping the gun a bit but I think I'll be gone when some of these conversations are happening so just the next thing is just want to thank the disco folks incredible amount of detail that you provided us and Margaret and so that's really helpful and I appreciate all the work you're doing because this isn't easy stuff. And that's why there's so many questions from our committee so thanks to the committee for doing that. So I want to follow up on Sean's comment which I agree with, I think, you know, I do anticipate that there's going to be on cost we're not calculating right now for traffic improvements. And I agree with Sean I'm not I'm not worried about it because it's just going to be part of the equation, you know, likely about sites and hard to predict. But I just want the public to know that this one when they see these estimates I'm not a net I'm not a processor I'm not an architect but my guiding assumption is that there there may be some costs to, you know, influence traffic patterns that we're not calculating here and I think I expressed in my primary at the last meeting. I have concerns about traffic. I still have those concerns I grew with the Jonathan said I was there when it was 500 somewhat pretty similar population. So, so I get that and I think there's opportunities there. I don't think that's going to be determining factor and how I'm thinking about it right now but I also want to I'd rather brace people for potential bad news down the road then people feel like the numbers that we're seeing today or the end all be all absolute that's a long way away when we're getting to project scope and budget right so when people see numbers sometimes they go why they different they're going to continue to change for a while. I'm glad they're getting I grew with Phoebe I'm glad they're getting probably closer finer tuned but that that tuning process is a long, long process of many many decisions to make that will influence it. Uninformed or not uninformed an expert opinion lack of expert opinion is that I think there will need to be some improvements at the Fort River traffic patterns, perhaps even more so at the other site. And I'm really concerned I would say, you know, in terms of the, but Sean raised earlier about the, what, what wild the look like during construction, you know, that's a hard problem to solve so I'm all, I'm not negative today I'm going to give a lovely, lovely talk in half an hour. You know, I think all this detail is incredibly helpful for me and my deliberation and appreciate the dialogue and everyone's willingness to hang in there with, you know, some complex information being shared with us. Paul. I'm going to disagree a little bit because I do the traffic piece does I said that already that's it's about money from my hat on as town manager it's about money and the traffic impact, the cost of the traffic changes that have to happen because that's going to ultimately fall on the town's and so I think that that's something that we want to pay attention to, I would I want to make it pay attention to, because I don't really weigh in on the educational values of the different things like trust our educators to do that. But, you know, I think the traffic impacts are are important to take into consideration. I'll just call on myself to make, and maybe we can do a transition to the matrix, but I did attend a program and Chris Brestrup was there also where the state was profiling new grant programs they have available to town. And one of them was called congested intersections near schools. It actually had a nice ring to it. And I asked during the Q&A, whether it could be when it was cool driveway is coming out and running into cars. And she said, absolutely, that's what that kind of that's what we're talking about with it. So I think, you know, I'm not going to oversell your, your staff's grant getting ability fall but you keep exceeding expectations. No. So, so I think, and I had someone from TAC, which is the Transportation Advisory Committee, email me to say don't forget that there are these, this program has been set up for this so I think that we need to have that in the back of our head for either school, you know, grabbing that money. I was just wondering if, if people are comfortable moving we've got some invoices. I want to make time for public comments. Mike said he has to leave. So there were a couple of things on the matrix, and then talking about how we're planning on using it we're meeting again on Monday morning. So it is transitioning to that next one, okay with people. Yes. Okay. I think there were a couple of things we were, and we had a quick discussion while we were waiting for everyone to join this morning before we went on recording but I was asking how in the denisco experiences we start to work with the matrix. And hopefully everyone will, to the extent they can score it before they come to next Monday, you know just Phoebe as I think I started to do the same thing there were only a few things that varied a lot. And I was deciding you know this is a plus this is a minus however you want to do it so I was asking how do committees fill out that matrix, and one thing is to come to a meeting prepared to talk about it. And then Donna said, sometimes, you know, at the end of that everyone just sends in their scoring, the nisco averages of them, you know, so if everyone said plus or minus. But I wanted to be able to even be thinking about this we've got either three level score or four level score. And I thought it might be useful to resolve where whether we're going with for we're going with three. You know whether had people formed an opinion about that. Margaret argued for three would be easier to work with and clearer. You know, and this is relative so that everything about is, is this option better than another option that we're looking at not better than what we have now. Or are there basically no differences. So she argued three would be better, but we've got on the table of four level scoring, or three level scoring so I don't know whether people tried to use it and came to any conclusions so I will just open it up for that because I thought it would be helpful if we at least we're all using 123 or 123 for as a way we're thinking about it. So does anyone want to chime in on their thoughts if they started to try to work with us. Mike, Mike's hand went up and then down. I'm just not a zoom person sorry. These are different systems easier for me. So, I have a bias towards four point ratings because I think when I'm offered neutral rating I tend to gravitate towards it, but I am not wed to that if the committee says three makes sense. If that makes sense, whatever it is. I'm fine with that just in my own research and background and, you know, doctoral research you know it's kind of four or five and I liked out of more when there's forced choices even if it's the same ratings. It doesn't have the, you know, people love neutral scores right it's just like you know not being negative not being positive it's just okay and, and I like not having that option for myself and others. If it's three you'll never hear me complain again about it. I'm totally roll roll with the group. Maybe. I think I was the, I think when you and I met Kathy I was the one who said, you know, let's do three. So I'm kind of shooting myself in the foot here but I, I, because of this I tend to agree with you Mike. I think that in this case I think for might be good I think that there is something. There's a similar category somewhere in there. So not a completely neutral, because I don't know that anything in this situation is truly neutral but I think, you know, if one of those four could be like, you know, similar, not as good best, you know, I don't really know how to work that, but so that we can have indicators of where things are quite similar but maybe something, you know, there's there's one way to skew it or another that each of us feels individually so I would say for as well and I don't know what those four categories are necessarily but other thoughts. I think changing the word to similar is extremely helpful, you know, you know, because this is, this is not so much. This is where we have no variation across the four options is what I would call a similar. So it can't be better and it can't be worse. If we might, we might think they're all equally bad, you know, is it another way of doing, you know, so you could still rank them. So does anyone, you know, it's sounding like we're still staying with four and what I noticed in trying to use for if the bottom, the worst means totally unacceptable, I don't think we have any that are totally unacceptable so I was finding myself not having that as a category. So that was my issue with the four when we started with four we still had the 165 person school. That didn't fit anything we wanted to do so it was totally unacceptable and it's dropped dropped off the edge of the platform. Well I'm not, I'm not seeing any strong opinion so if people can work with the matrix. There were a few suggested deletes last time when we met on the 20th. We said a couple things just aren't varying at all or we have no information on them. So, one we'd already deleted this contextually sensitive design. Jonathan you would flag several others. It wasn't clear that the the redistricting. We don't have any information on redistricting but it's going to be the same, whichever we're consolidating a school. So deleting a few or people could just leave them blank for now on that there's either no information but getting to a smaller number will probably be helpful for us. But that was, there were several that were flagged last time. And I'm totally willing to be the controller of the matrix if you want me to be and just go ahead and delete a few of them, and come with a comment on what to delete at the beginning of the next meeting, you know send it into everyone is recommended deletes, if that's the most useful way of doing it. And just so we get to I want to try to get to a matrix that we can use on Monday, and we can start to fill it out road by road. And then the other thought about Monday is if among these options and I'll pick add reno for the time being. We talked about it on on May 20, there were very few people arguing in favor of that option so if we are at the point of narrowing options, having one less variation to think about because we're kind of agreement, it doesn't meet some key categories that we want, including open the school in 2026. So we could make that decision Monday, and then the following Monday is when we have to get to perverts so I put on the agenda is potentially narrowing our options, and I was thinking in terms of ad reno and, and doing a little bit of thinking of two story versus three story, but not making a site decision on Monday. Does that sound okay with everyone as as a way of proceeding on Monday. So why are Monday discussion is about the matrix and about our options we're not going to have any presentations. It's going to be us talking to each other. Margaret I see your hand is up. Yeah, I just want to make one suggestion if we're going to stick with the for the version will pull up the matrix and show you my thought about this. So, can everybody see this. So I think if you're going to keep the four, which is this line right, I would change advantageous to a light green in the same way that not invitation is a light. I think this was intended to be a light red, because I think the yellow as a color in terms of making public presentations is confusing. It kind of looks like a highlight. So that would be my one thought about the, the keeping the four. The other way if it's hard for people to work with colors you couldn't make it 1234 and just put a number in it, you know just for you know, one is the worst and four is the best or something you know I think anyway people come in. So I agree, Margaret we don't want to pick a color that's the super happy color shouldn't be in between the other. That should be, it's mildly okay or mildly not okay and then there are the extremes. And I think as Phoebe said, there's a lot of nuance here so I think that there's likely to be more in the middle and less on the extremes. Rupert. I think you guys have already said what I was thinking about which is making the harsh unacceptable shade of less favorable that's stronger than the one before. So the good news is we can change our color scheme right up to the very end. You know, when I used to do chart presentations I also tried to make sure whether it showed up in grayscale because sometimes all the numbers, all the colors mush, which makes it really hard when you print it out on a black and white printer. For me it's not the colors. It's the verbal description that's right. Okay, so you know one of the issue when Donna presented it to the school committee the other thing that every, everything includes the educational space identified the program so we no longer have that as a row that's varying, you know that we just moved it up to that the same way they all are going to meet net zero they're all going to be ADA accessible they're all going to be safe entrances so we're not trying to score those at all. That's one that got removed. So Margaret you can send this around and we can just a note on some of the things that were. Yep, I'll call them potential deletes right now because they were flagged by at least three or four people as not a useful criteria, and we can always delete more. Great. So any a mooper is your hand back up. No. Great. Um, I'm thinking that if there's any more comments on this tool, hopeful people will be using it for next week. We have invoices that we need to be voting on, and I want to make sure everyone is here and then I want to turn to public comments. So I think we have several invoices is that correct. Yes, and actually I apologize because I thought I had sent them last night but I didn't. But they're in your inbox and I am going to pull them up I just first want to show a summary of what they look like just so you all have some context. So this is where we are so this screen. This is the Dennis go and voices. This is the answer and voices. So because we skipped over doing this last month there's two months and voices for each firm. So here are Dennis goes to invoices which include what they have been charging on a monthly basis for this phase. And then they have a there's a little bit of money for the wrap up on the first phase of the traffic study. So their total bill for the two invoices is $135 and $4 and then for us. Same thing. So we have two invoices, a little bit of time for Shelley Potter, who I think you will remember as our net zero guru. And so that total is 285 60. So I'm just going to quickly scroll through the invoices. So first I'm going to do. See here. I'm going to do the. There we go. So this is the Dennis go invoices. There's quite a few pages here. The, so this is the first invoice has a number of cover pages, and then I haven't signed these yet, but I will. This is the, the actual invoice. There are also providing workforce participation on a monthly basis. And then this is the second one, I believe. So, same deal. Here's their invoice. And this is the, this is the invoice for pairs wrap up on the first there'll be more work on the traffic study so this is just the wrap up on the first phase which was approved. And then again, there's their summary. So that's their invoice. And then our invoices are shorter. I can just get it to open. Okay, got it. Okay, so here are our invoices at ours, as you'll remember a little bit different and that we show our time. Our time is billed on an hourly basis so there's this detail of what everybody's doing. It goes on and on here Shelly chiming in the Shelly's invoice attachment. I had added the second invoice. And here's the second invoice. 1090 so it kind of looks the same and these are again these are in your email if you want to take a look in more detail. So there you go. Any comments questions. I see Sean's hand is up or Sean's hand went up and down. Yeah, so I'll, I'll do two things first. Margaret I do have a different bill previously number for answer than what you had on the screen it doesn't affect these invoices so I'm going to make the motion to approve these invoices but you and I should connect after just reconcile our invoice together. Because I didn't, I didn't do this for the previous one so we should check it. Okay. But I will move to approve these invoices. Is there any discussion. No, then I will put it to a vote. Jonathan. Yes. Rupert. Yes. Mike. Yes. Paul. Yes. Allison. Yes. Tammy. Angelica. Yes. Phoebe. Yes. Simone. Yes. Ben. Yes. Lisa. Yes. And Kathy says yes, it's unanimous. Okay. Thank you everyone. I'm I just, I'm going to open unless I hear other comments, I'll open it for public comments, but I just want to make sure everyone's calendar has that we're meeting. We're meeting a few days from now on Monday morning at eight 30 for a discussion with potential narrowing, but really using the matrix. Then we're meeting the following Monday. Because we had to move that date to come to a preferred option. And then we're meeting on the 24th of June, which is a Friday and Angelica told me that at least one of these was listed as a 730 in the morning. And I didn't mean to do that. So these are all the morning meetings are all starting at, at eight 30, and I'll double check that. And that, that at that, at those different time periods, Daniska will be preparing the document that's this PSR that goes to MSBA. And they can't prepare a big chunk of it until we make the preferred option because that will be the rationale for why we made that selection. So I want to assure both everyone here but anybody in the public we've been getting a lot of terrific public comments, thinking through some of this so we've got some background rationales both for what we've talked about and some written ones. I will say that as the emails have poured in one of the things I've picked up is several people have said, whatever you pick I'm for it, which, which is a really nice endorsement of our kids need a new school. And that's why we're all here so I really liked it when people were saying that. So I see a couple of hands up Rupert's hand is up and Donna's hand is up so before I open it up. Do you want me to share a few of my thoughts, because I wasn't at the last meeting where folks were talking about things or would you like me to put that off. I think if you could, you know, Rupert missed the last meeting and then watched it make had a couple thoughts if you could do it really quickly and then I will open it up for it that would be great. So I had particular thoughts about how to think about the future use of what site is not selected. There was some discussion about that and I recognize it's not really this committee's decision but there's some information that I think is worth sharing. As you noticed in the in the price summary the abatement issues for hazardous materials at Wildwood is is higher. There, there's more hazardous material there and I believe that that will impact whoever tries to use that building next if it's not taken down. It interferes greatly with operations and management of the school as it is now it's just a tremendous hassle. I think it was something like a $400,000 difference in the in the pricing. I suspect that it might be a little higher if it were for building was going to be reoccupied instead of one that was being demolished. So that's something to keep in mind. The other thing some folks were concerned about loss of the playing area for river. And I just wanted to point out that right now school staff are not maintaining the fields that's being done by the Department of Public Works I certainly don't want to commit them to doing anything in the future. They have enough in their plate as it is but I just wanted to point out that the field maintenance and the outside bathroom maintenance is is done by DPW and not by the school's department. So that was one area that I wanted to comment on the other area is that I think in terms of transportation issues. It will help us if we can divide. We if we can clarify what we're talking about I think that to separate out getting onto and off of the site is one issue comparing the sites. Then the pickup and drop off is a separate issue and then pedestrian friendliness is a third. And I just wanted to say that I think as the Fort River getting out of river in particular are quite problematic in terms of transportation and bus safety. And if we had all the students there. If there were the same number of buses we have right now might be one to less but if the same number we must we have right now. The vast majority of them will be trying to turn out turn right out of the exit of Fort River, and then negotiate that problematic intersection so I think that that's a potential strong negative in terms of transportation safety. I have other thoughts but I'll stop there for now. Thank you. I think that was very helpful. Donna I see your hand is up and Margaret's hand is up so. My only comment Kathy just goes back to all the meetings I just want everyone to hope maybe you attend we have a community forum on the non. Oh, I forgot. Okay, that's okay I just I just wanted to let everyone know will will be doing a similar presentation to the community just for for one last opportunity to hear folks and their opinions before final vote. And I distributed the flyer is available. I just, I'm not sure we sent it to the committee we should send it to the committee to. Yeah, I'll send that out. I mean, I sent it to all the, the town council we are going to be posting it, but it would be terrific to get a good turnout there for Q amp a for discussion because it is just before we take our vote. So it's on the ninth. And it is on the website so you can also point people to the website. Okay. I don't see any other hands up so I am going to open it for public comment. We are open and shown can help me figure out how to bring people in. I see one hand is up two hands are up three hands are up for hands are up. Chris is Chris Reynolds coming in. Okay, thank you. Hi Chris, you have joined us. Chris, if you're here and it looks like you're unmuted so that is that better. We can. Okay. Let's see. First, thank you very much for your very thorough and work both on the part of the committee and on the part of the new school. This is a good model for a good committee process. I'm generally I had in my at the last meeting a series of comments having to do with the basis of design basically on the specifications for the building. Kathy you said but can you hold off on that until later though that stuff will come up later. Yes and no. Once the dollar sign figure is established it certain has a certain viability in and of itself very hard later on to upgrade the this a number once it's gone public. So I don't really agree that we haven't had any questions about the basis of design they haven't that is to say about the specifications on the building. And some of them are important. And there's a phenomenon, which is that you have one, one opportunity to build the envelope of your building basically. Once it's done it's done and we have to live with live with it from there on so I think that there. I don't know how discussions at this point that will inform the cost estimate can can be entered into the process in a way that's meaningful. The last time I talked about things like the our factor other double double glazing versus triple glazing. The R factor the exterior wall, the air tightness figures are is there an established number of air changes per hour in this in the specs that we're trying to hit that that is a very important variable. Particularly, I have a question about under slab insulation we talked about when there is no under slab insulation just at the perimeter we're doing perimeter insulation no insulation under the slab. That means that in some in some climate conditions that means that the condensation on the slab is potentially a problem a cool slab in the right. In some climate conditions and these buildings will not be all air condition during the summer could result in condensation and so I think there is a moisture problem that is not addressed by what we have now the a large concrete slab touching the ground and you can in an in an in on air condition situations get condensation, therefore mold and mildew. And I don't think that's I think the decision not to insulate under the slab is an important one. It's a bad decision at this point it's not believe this is the only chance we're going to have to insulate underneath the slab. And it's a very, I think it's very important as far as into our air quality and and the health of the kids and it's also good for the slab to be a few degrees warmer in as far as schools concerned because a lot of kids, a lot of time, kids spend a lot of time on the on the floor. Lastly, um, well, lastly, I am concerned about the curvilinear parking area at Wildwood seems to me if we're going to build canopies over the that parking. The standard way it's done is rectilinear not curvilinear. I think that's probably a decision that has to be revived revisited. Lastly, I want to say just what other people have said whatever you pick. I'm for it. I think it's a difficult decision. I would tend to go with Fort River if I were to and if I had any authority here. But I think your matrix is a great way of trying to figure out what the right thing to do, whatever you pick. I'm for it. That's my message. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. Tony is coming in. Tony cutting him. Hi, Tony cutting him own drive. Thank you very much for posting the full cost estimates and phasing diagrams it's great to get that detail. And my primary concern is that this project succeed and override past handily. I'm concerned that any discomfort some of you may have felt today when trying to answer Phoebe's questions will only be multiplied when it comes time to ask taxpayers to voluntarily raise their taxes for this project. It has to pass an override. I would ask that you give some deep thought as to why you're leaning toward one site or the other and ask yourself if the community will agree with you when the vote comes up next April. Think about what is motivating your choice and what site is best for kids first and foremost. Consider these facts. Wildwood will be a construction site for a year longer. It will have no playground or fields for three years. When completed in summer 2027, it will have no playing field. There will be no room for the whole school community and families to gather for events like the multicultural affair that happened last week. There will be enough parking for 175 cars for the first year the school is occupied, and you have not offered an alternative location. There is only one entrance for all construction vehicles and buses and cars. And when the schools complete there would only still only be one entrance. And now there has been a suggestion that maybe you shouldn't bother with the roundabout construction at Fort River will be complete a year sooner. The reason why a higher cost for Fort River is for fabulous fields that are highly valued by residents as you have heard and CPA monies could be sought to help with that. There's more room to keep contractor lay down away from parking and kids at Fort River. And you told us that two story was going to be 10% more expensive than three story. These estimates indicate it is more like one and a half percent. With all that has been presented, I cannot see how anyone could pick Wildwood as a preferred solution here. It is clearly the inferior choice, and I expect it will be much more difficult to get an override past for a Wildwood project. I would encourage you all to choose the better plan and the one that has the greatest chance of success. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. And Pam Ronnie's coming in. Sorry that took so long. It just, it just spun and spun. Thanks for letting me in. I had a couple of questions that have to do with the construction at Wildwood. And if, if it was at all possible to go to that diagram again, it would be very helpful. Thank you, Pam. Thank you so much for that. The construction and I'm, I'm trying to figure out how do the well fields get constructed. While the area is in use as a staging area. So I think Pam, we're trying not to do it. You know, same way with Chris. So if you ask the question, what we can do is prepare answers for each. I'm going to take a few notes as is Margaret. Okay. I suppose I could, I could email you that as well. The second question I had is, is also at Wildwood during phase two. It shows that it shows the new building or the three story building in place with some playground area around it yet the contractors are still on site. And we know that. The site construction and the final touches of playground areas are the absolute last thing that gets done. So still, there would be no play area for the children in that area. And I actually, I think Tony kind of hands that it far better than I could. I'm very concerned that on Wildwood site. I think that there is no. There is no real opportunity for children outdoor space. Given given the parking needs for staff given the parking and construction areas for contractors so to me it seems a little bit like an unsolvable puzzle. Thanks. Thank you, Pam. And Bruce called them as a friend brought in. First of all, like I was I just want to applaud everybody. Denisco and your consultants I think a really excellent job of organizing the material and presenting it with clarity and being able to speak to it and I do sympathize with Tim's dog I'm sure he's been so busy that the dog's feeling neglected. And the committee your committee. The answers the way you're proceeding and so forth is doing justice to the excellent presentation and support from the design team and from Margaret Wood and her team so I'm continue to be impressed with all of you in this. And also, since I'm an architect and have been deeply involved in these sort of things for a while I thought it might be worth chiming in and saying that I agree with Rick and Tim and Donna about the answers to Sean's very challenging question of and post to a 50 year guarantee of course, no one's really going to be able to do that and apart from anything else they're not going to be alive so they could simply say sure it'll be fine and die happily long before the due date. But from a professional point of view I would share there, the confidence that level of confidence and assurance that they gave us I think it's, it's professionally supportable I think what they're doing is intelligent I had concerns about this site along with everybody else in town. My friend, Terry Brandon who diagnoses sick building syndromes and has done for 40 years is the leading expert in the country in this regard was at Fort River and was. So, what is being done is all the things that Terry said couldn't be done because it was an existing building but need to be done. So, yes, I feel reassured by their answers and by what's being done. I do have some more technical questions which I will just send in by email. I'll also dive deeper into the data that's presented to see if I can't answer them myself. Finally, I actually tend Chris to disagree with you about the sub step installation I know in the 90s this was a requirement code requirement for school buildings but I think that was before people thought and understood about the physics of heat movement if you put insulation in the perimeter of the building of the heat flow through the soil tends to be blocked by that perimeter and that and the consequences that the soil underneath the building equilibrates to the room temperature of the condition space. So theoretically, the slab shouldn't be needed, at least not all the way in, and comfort can be assured I guess we could. I could ask John Straub and other building science experts on this matter but I'm sure that Donna and her people have done the same. I'm not as concerned as Chris is based on my understanding of building physics and heat plants heat transfer movement through soil that you need to spend money. But I think we should be thoroughly reassured of that because it is going to be one of those residual concerns that the population has and if someone here's there's no insulation under the slab. So that could be a trigger that defies science and and rationality. So a lot I agree with Chris disagree with Chris from the physics I, I am somewhat supportive of his concerns from from a popular cultural point of view. Thank you all very much. So I've allowed phone number 4132186922 to speak. Yes. Hi, this is Maria and a lot of what I was going to say has already been said but I just want to reiterate. Thank you once again for this presentation. Thank you to the amazing geotech people and thank you to our, our community architects who weigh in so so well about these things as well. It's clear that that Wildwood is not going to have play space for kids for two years and if even if you move in all 575 kids and all the staff for that third year, they're still not going to have play space and it's going to be a construction site for another year. So it's 22, I'm sorry, 26 months construction in the cost estimates versus 22. This is for new three story. And it's really clear that Wildwood is just going to be a much more problematic construction site to the point where I don't know maybe even construction manager at risk for this highly complex site would be warranted. On the other hand, Fort River is going to give you something that you simply absolutely can you cannot manufacture at Wildwood. It's going to have gorgeous fields and to improve multiple fields that are used not only by the kids and the school community, but the entire community for $2 million more is I don't know that's a no brainer. I think that that is exactly what you need to do. I'm confident that they will that the designers and the builders will use their state of the art expertise to make this a fantastic school in a fantastic setting in a part of the town that's going to have new developments with new residents living within walking distance. And we can and should invest in not only the school, but also in our, our streets and in our field. So, please, please use Fort River, it will have resounding support in the community. Thank you very much. Thank you, Maria. So Kathy, we have some people previously spoke that have their hands up again I don't know if you want to do a second round of public comment or not. I'm conscious that it's after 1030 so I would, I would, there's one person who has not spoken. I don't think Rudy's been here. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And I ask if there are if the people have already spoken if you just forgot to take your hand down but if there are other questions if you would just send them in or comments it would be great. Thanks, Rudy Perkins and Amherst. I won't take time to go through all the things that everyone has already said that I agree with that for Rivers just so much better aside we're looking at a 2.2% increase in cost over new build three story. You know, on the DBB solution and and you're getting so much more at Fort River for that 2.2% that I just don't understand at this point how we could choose Wildwood it's it's just too complicated for the reasons given that there's no play space during two years and so on and so forth it's. I don't see it you don't just look at what you pay for something you look at what you get for what you pay for something when you're making investment decisions, and we get a lot more at Fort River, the clearing and grubbing area and the I look to me like you're clearing and grubbing 18.3 acres in Fort River compared to I think it's 8.3 at Wildwood which gives you a sense of how much more land you're getting that could be used for different things and that's not just playing fields it's going to be future expansion options it's going to be outdoor playing areas if we have any geothermal issues in terms of the locations of the field there's more flexibility and relocating them or spreading the wells further apart and so on. Outdoor learning is much advanced there there's more planned investment in outdoor learning in the budget at Fort River in terms of the infrastructure there for that so I just at this point I mean I've waited but. The cost difference is not enough to take us back to Wildwood which just seems like a much inferior and problematic site. Not to mention taking four months more minimum to build out so you have disruption for longer you've got everything compressed there, you don't have as good separation of the construction vehicles and the school vehicles. At Wildwood during the construction based on the diagrams that were were shown by the NISCO so. I just hope we we make the right decision here and go with Fort River I think will get community support. The extra money is a fraction compared to what we will get for the community over over the long run. One quick technical question I hope gets looked at again is that the photovoltaic panels in the budgets in the Fogarty were listed as 2009 75 per kilowatt for the roof panels and only 2800 per kilowatt for the canopy panels. And I thought it was going to be the reverse that the canopy panels were going to be more expensive. The also the amount of canopy panels in the later section of the budget are shown as equal between the two and the three story and that doesn't jive with the number of panels shown for each of those two. And the listing for the photovoltaic panels at least in Wildwood. So anyway that that's basically it sounds like there's a lot of support for going with Fort River and I totally agree with that at this point. The traffic engineers I I had some worries about that but I just go back to the final line in the traffic report the May 12 in summary we are of the opinion that the increase in traffic at either site can be mitigated to adequately accommodate the concerns of the town while maintaining traffic efficiency and safety will figure out a way to do that. I think that's somewhat more problematic there but it doesn't outweigh all the other advantages of Fort River to me. Thanks. Thank you booty. And I think everyone there's still is that the same phone number is that yeah I think that's the same number and the hands just still up. Okay, so I think that concludes today's meeting and. Let me just double check Kathy I'm just going to have a lot of time I think it's the same number but let me just confirm never just Maria is this you again just the hand was still up where we're trying to check. So, I'll assume it is. So I think we can adjourn the meeting unless anyone has any last questions so our assignment, Margaret will resend out the matrix with some suggested deletions but you can be working with the one you've got that we're currently working with four point four as I understand it and you could fill it out any way you want to with 123 fours or with colors. And we'll come in on Monday, try to go through at least the big ones where we see variations. So we're, where we see big differences and then, and then maybe narrow options. So I do have, I have one question I can ask that next week but on two versus three stories. So I, does MSBA allow us leeway later to, to, to go from two to three or from three to two so do we also need to, and I'll just ask that next Monday again also Donna, I don't need to put you on the spot right now, because it's a smaller difference than we thought it was going to be. So I, so that is part of Monday's discussion as well. So I think that is it. I'm not seeing any other hands so I want to thank the whole denisco team the answer team. And I will see you all in a few days Monday morning. Have a good weekend. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you. Now I need to stop the recording. Stop recording.