 Hey Gokhan and Giant's family. Today's guest for our podcast, Danita Conway. You are going to love her. I encourage everyone out there to listen to this episode. I know there's some of you that skips through some of the podcasts, but I'm telling you she has an incredible story. Danita actually, her business, they are working in the Pentagon each and every day helping facilitate the move to more than 150 persons working inside the Pentagon. And we're going to learn all about her story today. Her and I had a great conversation about how she got started, some of the challenges when she was working as an advisor and as a project manager prior to her founding her company and what were some of the challenges that she saw that caused her to step on her own and take that leap. So many of you out there are probably right now sitting in the same shoes as she is looking at all of the challenges and the problems and some of the inconsistencies at your workplace while you're working in the government sector and you're saying to yourself there has to be a better way. Well today's story with Danita, we outline exactly the thought process that she went through and what was the first steps, her second steps and how she got to where she's at and also at the end we start talking about what is in plan and store for her in the future. So stay tuned to this upcoming episode. It's an excellent one. Welcome our next Gulfcon giant. Hi, I'm Danita R. Conway and I am the CEO and founder of Poofee Management, LLC. Hey, welcome Danita. How are you today? How about yourself? Oh, not too bad. So what was your day like today? Oh my goodness. Honestly, it's a Monday. So Monday's are always very complicated, but it's been good. We worked all weekend. So when we're in government contracting, government's busy. Yep. That's interesting. Go ahead. I had to work all the time anyway, right? Yeah, I didn't think about that. So today was cleanup day. It felt like taking out the trash day, all the things that did or did not happen over the weekend. I've already accomplished that and knew I needed to do it before our meeting today. So you worked all weekend. Do you work most weekends? No. Well, yeah. Okay. So I, in theory, in physicality, if that's the word, right, I like to make them just go with me. I'm with you. I don't work all the time. I'm not always on site. This weekend, some of our government clients are doing a large initiative. So I was actually on site this weekend. But every weekend I'm doing something for the company, be it thinking, strategizing, reviewing something. But this weekend, yeah, they made me put my steps in. I had to go to these sites and walk around and look at stuff. Now, you know, I'm glad you clarified that, but I wasn't even thinking that you physically went to work. I just think about your staff. Does your staff normally work on weekends? No. Okay. Yeah, no. And when they work on weekends, I like to work on weekends. So if they're physically on site, I usually go into the office so there's a command. Plus, you want people to feel like you're a part of them, right? Yeah. Yes, absolutely. You don't know how low that level goes. You'll see me around when they're around. I think that's great. That's actually a great leadership trait that you, in the first two minutes that you've already given people out there. Sorry. I don't mean to get into this schedule. No, no, I love it. No, no, no, this is, that's great. I mean, people want to know this kind of stuff, right? Someone's thinking, like, my guys are working. Should I be working too? That's a good example. Yeah. I mean, so we've had this conversation with other CEOs or I've had this conversation with other CEOs. Okay. And it's like, I feel guilty when I'm doing and I'm not working and they're working. So you- Hold on. Wait, say that again. I feel guilty when they're working and I'm not working. Okay. Okay. Okay. If I'm somewhere or working from home and they're out there meeting the street, I feel bad, right? Like a little bit. Yeah. So what I do try to do is I try to, to give them a good balance. There are times when they're going to be working and I'm not going to work and there are plenty of other times when they're going to be working, especially when it's last minute or it's invasive over their weekends or it's nights. I want them to just know that they're not the only ones having to sacrifice. So I try to sacrifice with that. Okay. No, no, that's good. That's good. Where did that come from? So before I started Proven, I was actually a contractor on site. And I didn't like the fact that I was working nights and weekends or late hours and I can never find leadership. So one of the things that I wanted to do and why I started Proven was simply to keep the dynamic. It's just the right thing to do. So it's not something I have to do. It's not something that they mandate, but I believe that if we all treat each other fairly when we balance the act, then we'll have happier employees, employers that are long, longevity, and I kind of impress clients when I show up on site. They don't expect me to be there. Right. And that's, that's really neat. I like that. And I had another guy that he would actually go early to the site. Now, his, his methodology is a little bit different, but he would show up early to a site, right? Like where they have their tools or like a toolbox, he would put like $100 inside of it, right? And then with a note that says, you know, call me when you receive this. And so that was a way like, now he did it to see when people came to work. So he'd get up like five a.m. or four a.m. and show up and stick like $100 in there. And then it's like a notice, hey, give me a call when you get this. Then they would call, hey, I got the $100. And he was really saying, okay, this person came early. Like the people who came early and showed up and, and we get the things going. But it was also a reward for them as well, right? It's like a small ward to, to be there, to, to get there and start setting up early. And it's motivation. So I mean, I like that idea. I'm going to have to adopt that. I don't know about the $100 bill though. Well, you know, $100 bill is just really, I mean cash is, like, I mean, think about, even you are, I mean, I just think it doesn't really matter at what level you are. A hundred dollar bill still excites people. Yeah, seriously. Right? Like if I find a hundred dollar bill, oh, a hundred dollar bill. Okay. I'm the cheapest person in the world or frugal. Frugal. $20 excite me. See? Yeah, I find a $20 bill that I left in a person. And I'm like, it is the best thing. Like, oh my God, I'm rich because I found this and I didn't account for it. So I love the fact that he did that as a motivating. Well, and the other thing it shows, he was actually there first. Okay. Yeah. Think about it. Like I was there. I was there. So don't, don't say, Hey, it's Saturday. Yeah. Hey, I've already stopped by because I put the hundred dollar bill there. Yeah, absolutely. Think about it. But he, you know, also he's an early riser. Are you a early riser or midnight person? I do both. So I am best. I'm easiest to talk to in the morning. So in the morning time, I haven't gotten bombarded by a lot of things. So I typically get up at 530 or six o'clock in the morning every morning on a computer no later than 7am at any location. So that's what I get. I'm fresh. I'm clear. I can make very strong decisions. And then I lose that ability starting around 10 to like five. So like 10 to five, I feel like I'm not as as compromising as I am at 7am. It is so weird that part of our onboarding process, we have that conversation with people. We want to know the best way to communicate and the best time to communicate with you. If I'm delivering you good news, is it a text message, email or phone conversation or in person? If I'm delivering you bad news, tell me how to communicate. And are you a morning or a night person? And I started that because man, I used to, so I used to back in my early days, I worked on the construction site. And I had two children, two daughters that I would drop off to school. So but as time I got to my location, it was nine o'clock in the morning. Well, construction site started 6am in the morning. I have got children up, got them dressed, dropped off to two schools and commuted in Washington DC traffic. I am not in a position of answering questions at 9am in the morning. What I realized through that is that my weakness was causing a weakness in my ability to be successful. So part of my change was figuring out what to do to make me easier to talk to with my teams and tell my teams what's the best for me at my desk at 9 o'clock in the morning or my office at 9 o'clock in the morning. Call me on my cell phone when I'm commuting because I'm still, you know, because come 10 o'clock, I don't have any strong answers for you. No, that's, that's, that's wonderful. I do something very similar. And the same guy I talked about, he does, he's a business owner. The same thing we, I said, look, if you want to reach me, call me while I'm out walking at like 7am. If I'm out walking around strolling, I'm usually just listening to a podcast and something inspirational, motivational, whatever. So I'm free to talk. You know, it's a good time. I'm clear in my head anyway, so I can talk to you about whatever nonsense you want to talk about. I can do, but like you said, as my day starts to progress, it's more, it becomes more, more difficult and challenging to, to take on some of those. For sure. I mean, it's, it's, for me, it's a matter of, again, I don't want to be overloaded. And if you catch me the first thing in the morning, I never bring work to work. I mean, I never bring my personal life to work. It doesn't matter what happened before I woke up or what happened last night, what usually gets my team or anybody else or the things that happened during the day at work. So that's how people all the time, let's have a strong conversation. And it was the funniest thing because I had some employees that don't get to work tonight. So I got them used to getting on a 7am call with me. If you do a check-in at 7am, you're going to get more yeses. And they were like, Oh, so maybe I should take that phone call in the car. Maybe you should. Maybe you should. Speaking of not bringing your personal to work, is that something that when you're onboarding people you talk about? Not really. When I'm onboarding, I think, so truth and lending, my husband is in a company and my two daughters are in a company. So I generally talk about what our level of expectation is for us and how we manage because I introduce them. We do like a panel size interview. So it's about getting people very comfortable and where they are and what their level of expectations are. So in that, I think I talk a lot. So I tell them my story. So they'll see my story that I'm not going to bring anything home. And I live with these people and see them every day. So we legitimately have a cutoff period. Five o'clock in the morning, it shuts off. Five o'clock p.m. We can turn it up again. But it's just a part of our corporate culture. Everybody really does that. Although we're family. So all of my employees are like family to me. So sometimes the chance of counseling or being for employees who need to bring things to work. Right. No, I'm sure I imagine that. So tell us, what was little Danita like? Oh, oh my gosh, I want to show you a picture. So you can always send it to us and we could put it in. We could pop it up on the screen while you're telling us a story. Yeah. If you can show my sense to you, I really do look mischievous. No, Danita was very busy body. Back then, they didn't diagnose ADD, but I'm sure if they did, I would have been like, Oh, I got it. I had a very bad attitude. So as I say, I was very spicy. Always been a go-getter and a dreamer. But I'm approaching 50 this year. So right now, I think I'm my best, right? That's a good thing. I'm going upward. But it's just spoiled and only child and, you know, kind of like Lucy and Ethel for anybody who gets to, I love Lucy. Always had a plan, was trying to pull everybody in with me. I definitely was not a scholar. Schoolwork was hard for me, but I was busy. So I flew, why I did pom poms, why I did cheerleading, why I played the piano, why I was taking violin classes, why I was traveling doing drama. So I've always had the need to have my hands and a lot of things. Still, was woken up by my mom at 7am every Saturday morning to clean the house. Every morning, like wash walls. And so when my kids ask me, why are you so clean? I'm like, that's your grandmother every Saturday morning. Back then, there was no such thing as a housekeeper in my household. So I came up in a household where it was just me and my mom, my father. We lost my father at an early age. And she really did instill a lot of discipline in my life and a lot of creativity. But she also didn't instill all the discipline because like I told you, I was very mischievous. I figured out a way around things. And you know, because now I'm not mischievous at all. Like literally now I'm like, I need everything on a paper. Maybe that's because in my earlier years was done in the dark always comes the light. So now I don't want anything. You don't want nothing coming to light. I want this to the light now. I don't want it to come to light later. Okay. And we'll get into that. I want to talk, we definitely want to talk about those early years of proven as we progress. Now, going back to your mischievous years and being in everything, were there any signs of entrepreneurship early on? I hear signs of leadership. I hear the leadership signs. I hear them. And I'm sorry, good job. But going back to that scholarly thing, I almost believe that the scholarly piece is the other side of the brain that goes almost against that entrepreneurial side of the brain. I really do. And I listen, I'm talking to people, I'm asking the same questions. And you can tell me your thoughts about it. Yeah. So earlier years, no, entrepreneurship, there are a couple of ways you can become a leader. And I think part of me was born a leader. I think though I was a little bit more bossier than leading. So people because my personality was very strong. And I was very convincing that I knew what I wanted to do very much like now, like when I come to a table, I've always said, Hey, if we ride down this bike path, I'm telling you, nobody will know. Already thought it through like I had a plan from the beginning, but entrepreneurship was definitely not right. I wanted to be a vice president of a company. I still kind of do like I think I would be great at the president of Apple, something where I can just have a whole bunch of people and I can tell him what to do. But the will not say telling what to do a whole bunch of assistance and leadership that I can give direction to. So no, I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just wanted to really lead a group of people have my part in the world and do my part stay in my lane and go home. From a scholar perspective, I don't know the answers to that because I want I can say that my academia was not or is not a part of my success. The fact that I have college degrees, the fact that I've taken classes, classes, I think being an entrepreneur is all about trusting your intuition. It's about getting to know people. It's about learning premier lessons. It's not so much about what you read in a book. But you didn't hear that from me because I tell my daughters, they have to continue on till they get all of their masters and PhD. Sure, right. They're not going to listen to this. Don't let them hear this episode. Yeah, I can say that I honestly don't remember what it is. But somewhere in my subconscious, it did teach me how to go through life. It taught me how to be a team player. It taught me how to turn assignments on time. It taught me how to fill in a paper with the pencil instead of a pen. Like I learned all those things. Being an entrepreneur, I think I was actually born with it. And I just hadn't tapped into it yet. I would agree with that. Again, that's why I ask these questions. I see a correlation with a lot of people in their youth and then to their present time. And going back to that, for me, I will say college gave me the belief system that I could actually learn anything that I wanted to, that I put my mindset to. So for me, going through college was like me challenging myself. That was for me. I have never used it in a practical world in a business sense, but it did give me that confidence that I needed to be able to learn things. And so even afterwards, I went on to learn Spanish as an adult. And even now, I have an Airbnb and so my Airbnb tenants are from China and they've been in my Airbnb. They were actually stuck there during COVID. Oh goodness. Oh wow. Okay. And so I've interacted with them a little bit. The daughter is a college student and she's just a translator. But the dad asked me, he says, do you understand any Chinese? And I go, you know, I was studying it a few years back and I stopped. But I promised it, if they stay another month, I'm going to go back and really spend 30 days with them, like interacting with them. And that's what college gave me the confidence that I could do something like that and take that off, that challenge. And I think you're right about that. Definitely it's weird. I don't make it a mandate, but it's my preference that everybody goes through or has a college degree. And it's not so much the degree, it's the experience that the degree bought. Right. It's interacting on platforms. It is passing. So as ironic, I have a business and I'm really good at accounting for the business, but I could not pass the county institutes. It was the hardest class. I think I took those classes three times a piece. I'm exaggerating, but I promise you I took them more than once. Right. And so I think that was, you know, it's ironic that I went through that, but the college experience I had and the plethora of people that I knew and I wouldn't change it. And I think that's why I always say to people, college degree, college degree. And my staff will go, you know, you don't really need a college degree. This person has 20 years. I'm like, I get it, but it's still something that can be advantageous. Right. I'd like to see that discipline that they've gone through in the college. Exactly. In the experience where our team is very ever-changing. And, you know, I always say it, what a project management. And when you've ever gone to class and you go to one class, class one, the professor says, okay, this is due on this day. You go to another class and the professor says, okay, we're going to have a quiz. And it's the same day. Right. And you go to another class and they're like, oh yeah, you have a 15 page paper, but your outline is due the same day. Right. So what I like about that is that it's taught us as project managers because our clients, we can't control the schedule. And we'll back and say, oh, we can't get that done on your timeline because I have something else to find. Right. You're like, he said, I got a quiz today. This person said I got a 15 page paper. And now you on top of all that. Okay. I like it. Were there any teachers or professors going through your formidable years that gave you encouraging words or maybe disparaging words that could have pushed you? I think that so I tell the story all the time. I would have never gone to college or at least been able to get through college if it wasn't for sister Gwendolyn Proctor from the Academy of Notre Dame back in 1986 when she got a hold of me. And the one thing I loved about her is that whenever I felt like I couldn't get it, like because again, learning was harder for me. So I was a C student at best whenever I felt like I couldn't get it or I got discouraged because something else was going on my life. She always pushed me to a limit. And she was the one that says go ahead and apply to college. You'll get into them. I'm like, well, I can't get into what I want. So she says, okay, no problem. Do a stuffing stone. Go to one university and wait until you can transfer to another one. And back then I had my eyes set on New York University. And so I was like, but I don't have the grade. She's like, but you have the personality and you have the perseverance. So I need you to go a different route and then decide what you want to do. So I did that when I went to another state university years and I chose to, I didn't even choose NYU. When I had choices, I didn't choose one that I had reservations. By the way, where were you born and raised? Washington D.C. You were born and raised in Washington D.C. Really? I don't seem like I seem, people say that they can't get me from Washington D.C. One, people say I have an accent, but I haven't heard it. I don't hear it. Exactly. Right. You don't hear it. I don't hear it. I don't hear it. I like to speak to everybody and I'm really into things. So people are like, you're not from North Carolina or South Carolina. I'm like, born and raised 50 years. Wow. Nice. Not yet. Almost. Two months. See? Two months. Okay. Okay. So you were born D.C. But you didn't have nothing to do that. You knew nothing about government until you came back from college. Well, no, that's not true. So tell me. Yeah, I'm going to tell you. So I wrote this letter to this SBA and it's, I won the 2018 Small Business Person of the Year award and I wrote them and said, I started at SBA in my career and I'm now in the Small Business Person of the Year. Like, how ironic is that? So when I was in college, when I came back home, so I went away to a school, went there for a year and a half and then came home and finished a semester at junior college because I realized where I was, it wasn't most conducive for what I wanted to do. When I was doing that, my mom said, you have to get a job. So I was like, okay, I'll get a job. So I got a job as a college intern, which they still have the programs now with the Small Business Administration. No, so I worked for the Small Business Administration in the U.S. men in Philadelphia. Knowing both of those jobs, I would not say that they were the propeller. I just did admin work for them, but I knew the government agencies. So I got a college intern program in 1990 with the Small Business Administration and I worked for them, but it wasn't that I knew about government. I mean, what I say I knew about government, I didn't know the inner working. So I worked there as an intern, but I've really done the same things until well after college. Okay. All right. But that was your first exposure to the world of contracting? Yeah. No, I was a federal government employee. Right. But I'm saying you're employed, but you saw like contractors, you saw that, or did you not even know anything about contract nothing? No, I think the, I think what's nice about it though, is I knew what the Small Business Administration goal was. That's why it's warming to me, because I knew that their goal was to help small businesses, but I didn't really, you know, I was 19, 20, 21. I wasn't worried about that. I was worried about that nice little resume that I was getting. I learned a lot about government contracting until well after college years. Let me ask you, since you brought up the idea of resume. I mean, a resume still, you still, like, is that still, I don't know, I looked at a resume recently, and I just thought the person had much more to offer than their resume they submitted to me. How do you view that? You know, it's off topic, but I, you said it, I just, that's okay. I don't mind. So I have mixed emotions about that, right? I would rather hire everybody that I meet personally, because I would rather hire them based upon their personality than with their resume. Because some people, like myself, like I was underestimated. And if you look at my resume now, you would hire me without a doubt. If you look at my resume before proven, you would be like, oh, so I would rather hire somebody that I can just have a conversation with and get people and hire them based upon their desire versus their past experience. However, nowadays, you only get resumes, you can't hire like that. So I, resumes play a huge part. And the bad part about it is if you don't have the resume, you don't get past my human resources, so it never gets to me. And a prime example is my daughter emailed me the other day and said, mom, one of my friends that they were interested in working for you, and asked me, can I help out? Have you seen a resume? And I said, no, I haven't seen a resume. And then she called me back like two days later and said, oh, mom, you know, my friend heard from the company and we denied her. I was like, oh, no, what happened? So apparently her resume didn't check out. It just, it didn't have all the kind of like, this is what we say you need. And this is what you have. And we can't be your personality. But a good news on, on that is I told her, have her send her resume back in and I'll talk to her personally because if she has a skill set and she's just missing one thing, I certainly love to give an opportunity. Yeah. Absolutely. But you know, people are good now that there is a web. Right. You can't believe it's on a resume. Thank you. No, I agree. I just heard other people doing say, hey, send us like a 30 second video or a two minute video of yourself that we can look at along with the resume. Yeah. Oh, that would be good. I should take that idea. You're giving me a lot of ideas. Let me tell you, I read a lot. I learned a lot. I study entrepreneurs and business people and what they do. Now let's talk about proven. I saw somewhere where you quoted, it says my success is a dream come true. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us what was the dream? So it is weird. Remember, we talked about I didn't expect to be an entrepreneur. And I was so the opportunity came, I grabbed a hold of the opportunity. One says that that failure is in procrastination. So when I got the opportunity, I jumped right on it. It was a dream come true because I never really believed that I can do it. It was a dream come true because I was a child. I was in a single family household where I don't know if I would have voted myself as most likely to succeed. So being able now to have 100 plus team members underneath me being a ward member, but the most satisfying are two things, delivering what I promise and being in control of delivering what I promise and then giving people an opportunity to do the same is just the most rewarding experience I could ever tell you about. That is very similar to what I heard someone else in the podcast mention said delivering excellence. But I don't hear that outside of successful entrepreneurs in the federal sector. Really? I think that's something that I don't know. It's like a spoken language that you learn is what it takes to be successful in this industry. I think also so the one difference between government contracting and other contracting because we do commercial as well is that specifically federal government contracting. There are so many eyes to die and teased across and they really do mandate excellence. They don't actually follow through with it. So they look for those buzzwords to say, oh, I'm going to be innovative. I'm going to deliver 100% of the time. But I think the industry is stepping up in the GovCon industry just saying, okay, everybody's using these words and everybody's actually not only using them but delivering them. So we all better step up our game or we're not going to be. And it went was like this. I think now it's going more like this. I think the government is being mindful of those people that can literally have a performance requirement and deliver on time. Right. No, I agree. I agree. And again, I again, I have the same way I work outside of government and I see people promising you they're going to be here at a certain time. They're going to do these things. They're going to, it's going to, it's going to only going to cost this amount of money. And none of those three boxes they can check at the end of the day. It's funny. I call it one of my girlfriends who's a contracting specialist at agency that's not any over any of my contracts. Right. That word. But I called one of my girlfriends and said, I got a question to ask you, am I being unreasonable? And she said, what happened? I said, my contractors don't deliver as promised. It's like, I don't understand if I, if we have a scope of work and you tell me you're going to be there at seven a.m. while you're there. I don't understand. These seven, you better be there. Seven. One door from eight to 12. No. I don't get the care. You know, when we go on these, these government sites and deliver, there's a care to what we're delivering. Right. There's a level of commitment that we all the might and in the world outside of federal government contracting as a recipient of some of these services. I'm just shocked. But all that does for me is step up my game. Yeah. Yeah. They do and go, Oh, I'm never going to do that. That's a great way to look at it. Tell us, so before you start proving what were you doing just before you start the company? I'm a manager. So the same thing I started the company with. Okay. Move manager for private corporation. It was a private corporation with a contract at the Pentagon. Okay. So I, they had, I worked for a company who had the contract and then while I was down there, I got an opportunity. Someone suggested to me in a meeting, you should start your own because I got frustrated with, for me, remember, I told you, I'm balanced. I have to have a balance. And my core value is fairness. No matter what it looks like, as long as we can say that a fairness will be a jury of our peers, that's what I want. And I found that I wasn't getting that either. I wasn't getting the fairness and being supported by my leadership or they weren't, you know, people weren't getting paid right or paid on time. They were asking me to do things that I don't think that we should do in a government contracting space because my mind is if I'm sitting down there, I'm representing the government. So there were these things that went against my core of what I believe was the right thing to do. Someone said to me, you know, you should really start your own since you're so frustrated. And I was like, huh, maybe. I didn't think about it. So then the opportunity really, January 2008, the opportunity came up and I was able to leave my current company and get a contract as an individual, as a consultant overseeing the company I work for. So that was a kick. So I, and I stayed there for like three years is just a consultant. Just learning, just learning, learning, soaking it all in. Okay. And then you decided, okay, I'm ready to take the leap. I'm ready to take the leap. I've learned enough is time. So I, I did give myself, so I said in 2008, I'll start the company, I'll be a consultant. But I knew there was a timeline with, with the government is based real linemen and closures. And I knew that was 2011. So I targeted a whole bunch of agency, DOD agencies, talk to them, start putting my name out there, start letting them know I don't work for this company anymore. And I'm on my own. So I did that for three years. I went to the SBA, built relationships to banks and built relationships so that I was already impaired when I could get my first contract. And just sure as my plan in 2011, I got a phone call and defense media activity was like, you ready? And I'm like, yeah, it was like, six people. I need you both, all of them here, six people in 30 days. And I was like, I didn't expect, I thought you just won't give me like six months. They like, no, you didn't. You know, I love that story for so many reasons that happened to one of my clients recently. He was negotiating his little contract. It was like 40,000. And then he was like, man, this is peanuts. Give me a real contract. So they came back to like a seven-figure contract. He said, wait, I thought we're going to let go in between. I thought like maybe go for 40,000 to like 100,000. That was like 40,000 to a million. He's like, wait, but we have even learned the system yet. You wanted it, right? The government, they don't, that's not, that's how they do stuff, right? That's what we have. Do you want it or not? You know what? So there's a mindset though in GovCon. You take what you can get. You learn on site. So yeah, so, you know, there's this word in the GovCon industry, right? So if there's an opportunity to come to you, you take it and you learn along the way. You hire the people when you get it. I agree with that with two exceptions. Kind of got to know what you're taking. So like, I know nothing about cybersecurity. A contract in Alabama and they said, hey, look, we want you to project manage all the cybersecurity installs, yada, yada, yada. And I said, no, can't do that for you. And they were like, Danita, you know, you're kidding me. And this time we were 8A, this will be such a large contract for you to grow exponentially. And I said, there's two problems with that. One, you're growing me in an area that I don't know anything about. And then two, you're growing me too quickly. And I don't have the infrastructure. So at the end of the day, I might gain some past performance, but I'm going to gain more enemies trying to figure this out along the way. And so they're all looking at me around this room and saying, but you do project management. I do, but I do project management in this rep. My answer is, you know, I couldn't figure that out. There was another person that came to me and gave me another contract in construction management. It was the first time I had ever done it. But the difference was I saw how it had run because I had worked under it for 10 years in the Pentagon. Construction management was easy for me because all I had to do was mimic what I did. And I had enough relationships to bring people and tap in my mentors. Cybersecurity, I know one person. It was not, it was not an answer. Now, it was funny. My next door neighbor is now the lead over a huge, he works for a huge company that does cybersecurity. If they knocked on my door now, and I just go get him. Look, now they call me like, I know who to go get. No. That takes a lot of maturity. It does, but I'm not afraid of failure. I accept it. Inside of growth is failure. Right. And only way for me to learn is to make a mistake. And I don't mean flop. I mean, it's not going to come out the way I have it in my head. I'm not afraid of stretching my limits. I think that's what leadership and maturity is about. Taken and saying no to things is something that is definitely an acquired taste. But it has been my true success. Learning when to walk away, learning that, you know, you've ever heard the words, all money isn't good money. It's time to just say no. I'm going to just focus over here. Right, right, right. Does it take a level of maturity? Absolutely. And it's not even, you can see us around the table doing a go, no, go decision, go, no, go, meaning that we all come up and say, we're going to bid on it. And my team will like, what you made, we're not going to bid on it. I said, they got 75 points. We said, we need 80. We're not bidding on it. So it's, it's, it's all about in a GovCon space, specifically, you got to really know your strengths and weaknesses. And when you put me in a wheelhouse that have some inherent witnesses, it messes with me. Yeah. When you set out to start proven, what, I mean, what was the dream? You know what, honestly? So, okay. Well, I mean, what did you say? I said, I'm going to start this company and it's going to be X or I want to be Y. Where was the dream? I didn't have that. You didn't have that? Nope, nope. Even when I went through some programs, they're like, give me a number. And I'm like, I mean, not number necessarily, but I mean, I've heard, so I've heard someone say I wanted a thousand employees. Like I had someone who was a call center. They said they wanted a thousand employees. Other people, I know you want to be vice president of something. I did. So for me, for, for proven, I honestly didn't. I think my goals were really set around. What'd your shirt say? By the way, I see your shirt there. What does it say? Just work hard and be nice. Can you say, hold on? No, I see work hard. Work hard and be nice. There you go. Okay. Okay. I think that let me rethink this. No, I didn't have any goals. My goal was to take, grow 25% a year. So grow conservatively and stay out of my wall house and become truly a subject matter expert. So what I told my team is I didn't have a, I didn't have a goal as far as people or even revenue. The thing that I wanted to do when I started the company was to stay in my will house and have complimentary services and do the best job that I could do as long as I could. So I know that's weird. My team did. You know, they were like, oh, I want to get to 200 employees. I was happy when I had 10. Certainly. That was, yeah. You get to employees and I remember my cousin said, how many employees do you have? And I was like, mind you, he, he worked all, he was a third of a owner and a big company. So he, he was like, how many employees you have? I'm like, 10. He was like, man, I saw it. And I was like, really? So he saw me the other day and he's like, how many employees do you have? I said 102. He was like, really? Where did it come from? I was like, I know I didn't plan on it. Right. It was just, it was working hard and believing if I treat my clients right, they'll continue to grow my business. So I let my business driver become theirs, whatever their vision is, whatever now is in the hands of the next set of leadership improvement, whatever their vision is. So I wish I had a strong answer for that, but I think of just being able to stay in GovCon and being able to survive as long as I have and being able to do that with a stellar reputation. You know, I had to say it, but if I stop today, I will be completely satisfied. Wow. That's amazing. The, when was it not such a dream? I'm sure there's a challenge story somewhere along the way. Yeah, okay. My, my valley. One that you don't mind sharing publicly. Honey, I, the whole time it's been a struggle, you know, like I, I just did a conversation with the SBA. They came to my office and had an interview with me and said, it was easy now. I was like, are you kidding me? It's harder now than it was back then. Like it, it literally gets harder. In the mouth, feet. Not only that though, it's when you're first coming in, you're just learning about, okay, what do I need to do with payroll and who do I need to go to my bank and the more you, the bigger you grow, you get into FMLAs and, you know, FSAs and all the, once you get above 50 employees, you started having to track all the, you know, the EO and it, it just becomes a bigger responsibility. It makes sense. So it's all been pretty, it's been a ride, but it's all been pretty difficult at times and very rewarding at the same time. So when I climb a mountain, I go, yeah, I beat my chest and go, like, I've done it. I would probably say the hardest thing about running a business and doing proven specifically is what I say all the time. It was figuring out who was going to fly and air with me. Entrepreneurship is truly a thousand, what is it? 30,000 mile high club. I'm just trying to give a good way to put it. Not everybody can fly up there. Like my mind here today is over here and it's over here kind of like ping-pong and you're trying to chase the dots. Yeah. Figuring out who to do it and figuring out who was going to work as hard as me to help support me was really important and figuring out that I couldn't take everybody I wanted to with me on the ride. I lost a lot of friends and family members over it. People thought because I made it, I was just going to help them out and it wasn't a bad thing. It's just that I realized I couldn't do everything so it was very emotional for me through that time. And I think probably the other hard part when I'm thinking about this, but the other hard part about being on this journey has really been about the decisions you have to make. Like we talk about turning down that contract when you really want it and putting what my objective is and what I remember, what I wanted to accomplish versus what someone's putting in front of me. That's a tough decision because I would rather have a company with some substance than have a company without. I always say tell my team we're going to go a mile deep, right, instead of a mile wide. I don't want to go this way. I want to go. So it was a few hard parts. I think the like you asked me for one. I think probably the hardest part is making sure you don't disappoint people. You know when people, you interview people and people interview you or they should. Right. And I always want to deliver what I promise. So if I promise you that I'm going to get you to the next level, that's what my goal is. And sometimes they get in their own way which feels like a disappointment because as human nature, we blame the other person. So I think that's been a little challenging making sure that I constantly be the role model and encourage people to be their best selves. What about going from 10 to 20 people 20 to 50, 50 to 60? That was not difficult. I think the hardest part on that was when we went from 50 above. Okay. Before that it was, it was I had set up a structure. So it was kind of easy going through the transition. But once we hit 50, now the lawyers have to come in all the time. And now you need an HR person and now payroll is so much bigger. And now you have 50 complaints or 50 words of encouragement you have to do versus 10. So I think the hard part was the transition between what they consider a small business to what they consider a larger business more responsible for a little bit more loss. Yeah, I think that's, I'm just trying to think out loud and see if there was anything else that was a transition for me on that. And I think that was pretty easy. And it always happens because we do a lot of stuff on site. So a lot of my FTEs are on a government site. So a lot of them came in a wave. So we might get in people all along contract. Okay, okay. No, I can. Now let's talk about what it is that you exactly do. I mean, we've talked about your story. We've talked about your leadership, entrepreneurial. But what does proven do? I read here, it's such a logistics management. But I've always thought about trucks when I hear logistics. Yeah, you know, we've actually changed that. So proven management is a real estate consultant firm. What we do is take a building, construction management, space planning, which means trying to determine how many people can fit in there. And then furniture procuring for that space planning. So if we get a space, a 5,000 square foot space, and we have to put three, I'm exaggerating, 150 people in it, we'll put design workstations and offices to be able to accommodate that. We'll procure the furniture for them. We'll do all the furniture selection. So all the finishes, whether it's going to be like I'm in a white chair, whether it's going to be a white chair or a brown chair, we'll work with them to do that. We'll do the change in the move management. So we'll start to get people prepared for either a renovation of their office or moving into a new office. And then we'll hire a company to physically move them. Okay. Now I saw also somewhere where you talked about disconnecting and reconnecting services. That's a separate service. Disconnecting and reconnecting? Like, I guess computers maybe? Do you do anything with that stuff? Only in this, so the only time we do disconnecting and reconnecting of services is if there's a client moving. So we are the national move manager for the United States citizen immigration services that is moving in their headquarters. If they had put in our scope to have all the computers disconnected and reconnected, we would oversee that. Okay. That's part of the move process. So we get brought in as move managers, we oversee that. Proven does keep a small team of our own and house people that can do the smaller things. Part of the times we go get a subcontractor and manage that. That's where the program and project management comes in. My expertise is knowing how to do the job and then finding the people to execute. Now, that's amazing. Now I saw also we're talking about with COVID-19. How is that going to affect space design? Really good question. What did you say? You are the mass contract holder for USCIS, right? Let's talk to the expert here. Yeah, it's funny. So I'll tell you. So I just went through and got my real estate license because I've been proven into doing brokerage services. So we'll look for places where we can help find buildings for people, right? Or at least so I'm really big into real estate. But the funny part is I remember telling my husband, I said, all the people are selling these houses, but they really need to rethink it and start selling home offices because people are going to be working from home. Government spaces and commercial leases are not going to be the same. True to fruition, an article came out that says more people should be considering turning some of their spaces into home offices. Space planning, you got to sit six feet apart and the government did everything they could to make it an open and collaborative space. General Services Administration led the charge on that. And if you walk in their space, unless there are five people out, you are not going to do social distancing. I think you want to find it a challenge when the government finally opens back up because what they have to do is figure out how to take a table that they used to sit for that can now only seat one. Because social distancing, the table aren't even six feet apart. When we're looking at each other, we're not sitting apart. Right, period. In between, you know, a table is going to be 36 to 48 inches. It's not going to be 60. Sitting two tables. Yeah, you can't do that. You can't take off your mask. So I think we're going to find that when the federal government starts to open up, it's really going to take us back to what they did so long, so much to get us out of. That's been our initiative for the last decade. But more people get out of that. Yeah, so we're going to go back to where we came from. How was, I read also that you had the contract to move for the Pentagon. You moved out the Obamas and moved it. How was that? I know they said it wasn't your largest contract, but it was just a unique experience. Yeah, so I want to clarify that too. So we do furniture. So when Obama administration, basically our job was to make sure that he was set up in the offset buildings. You know what was nice about it? It wasn't the largest, but it had to be the most important. So, but it was legitimately stress-free. The only thing that was tough about it was making sure that I had the right talent so that if I couldn't be there, they could take care of it. But it was, I mean, it's literally probably still my proudest moment. Just being able to say that I helped out and I participated in something that I believe very heavily in, which is the United States government. Yeah, right. No, no, no, true to form. I love it. Now, we're talking, we've talked about that. What about coming up 2022, 2023? How far off are you thinking about reinventing the company? I know you said you got your real estate license. What are some other things that you want to get into, some other areas? Obviously, you're staying in a moving space, but like, do you want to expand in the private sector? Do you want to expand into the home office design market? Like, I mean, I hear a book coming. Yeah, right. So I can't be home as he is. I don't want you to tell me all your secrets. Tell me what you can say publicly. I have big plans for myself, right? So we're going to stay into the real estate and facilities market. I want to continue to do space planning, which was new. We introduced space planning and interior design in 2018. We just didn't move management. And it's a little different than moving, because moving is physically moving the stuff. We do the planning of it. So we're kind of the brain matter behind it. So my goal was to add interior design and space planning and construction management in 2018. I did that, have some decent size contracts under that. Now I want to branch out and start to get into some real estate services, where we did a table and able to discuss as the government's coming in and out of their leases and have enough licensed personnel on my staff that we don't necessarily have to brokerage for them, but we can have the conversation to market trends, if that makes sense. I got mine. In 2025, I'm hoping that my kids are taking over the company, and then they have to kind of do what they want to do. But for us, I feel like we have... There's a secret I have that I can't tell you. All right. I'll tell you what, I'll give you the first right of refusal when it comes out. Just kidding. By the way, we can always go live. Not today, but I mean, we can do it live. I don't know what to say. I'm transparent as a mug. Except for that one secret you don't want to tell me about. Oh, my one secret. That's okay. I don't want to keep it. Because I haven't advertised it yet. So I produce loudly when I work quietly. I like that. But I promise I'll tell you what it is. No, I like that. I like that. And the reason the way I look at this is also, when I'm listening to you and I'm hearing what you're doing, I'm again, I'm imagining that Apple is going to have to do reduce space design. Computers, the company that you want it to work with and be vice president. So I'm looking at it from a standpoint of, hey, I'm doing our Conway and we do space design. We've done it for the Pentagon. We've done it for all these government facilities. It would be nothing for us to do it for Apple or Microsoft or Intel or any of these corporations. We could design your two million square foot space. Yes, exactly. So right now we work with Fortune 500 companies. So we do do some work, some of the larger corporations. I branched out and started doing commercial work after 2013. Right. With the frustration ahead. I knew I had to go commercial. But my expertise is far in government. Like government, I could put in a conversation in a room and leave the conversation with anybody in it. Commercial, I'm still learning. Okay, okay. I'm trying to get you to that board seat. Oh, which board seat? I want you to sit on the board for one of those big companies. Okay. I want you on the board. I want to recommend you sit on the board for Apple. Okay. So we're going to put that in my to-do list. That's what we want. Because women are now being, we're popular. We're popular. Yeah. And it's not enough women on boards. We know. And listen, you have no idea who listens to these things. Oh, exactly. Well, they need to call me. Okay. Or they need to call me. See? Go ahead, put your plug in now. Tell them. How could you help the board? What could you do to help the board? Oh, that's a good question. So I'm very strategic. I, for any board that we come on, I offer diversity. I offer diversified thinking. I'm strong in strategy and risk management. I think those are my four concepts. I think what I love the best about my abilities is my ability to take a plan, whatever that plan is. So from the voice that I do sit on, part of our plan is always to make the corporation better. So to, to take a plan that they have and help them and help their leadership who's actually executing it. Know exactly what to do. So those, I think those are my strong suits. Love it. Great. Good job. Any books that you recommend to aspiring small businesses? You know, I think that it really is a personal preference, but I can tell you that I have read my life. Or something that you give. Maybe is there a book that you gave to your daughters, your husband to read? I think so from my accounting department, I got the managing by numbers. I think it was really important for them to reread about what to do for numbers. For project management, I got a book that was called Powering the Project Manager. And I would have to get you the name of that author, of that author. For my leadership team, they just finished reading Dan Eider's book, which is about his leadership through the Walt Disney Company and how he did what nobody expected. And I had my leadership team recently read that because that's what I expect for them to do, to go beyond what everybody at Puget Management thought. I love it. No, those are great. Any favorite quotes or sayings? Does not have to be business related. Something that just sticks with you. Oh, yeah. So can we give a famous quote to my mom, as she said? Yes. There's a good decision, a bad decision, and a right decision. If you do the right decision, you're treating everybody fairly. A good or bad decision will always be in every decision. So just stick with the right. And that's how I live my life. Any times recently, you had to make the right decision? I make the right decision every day. All day. You have to make decisions every day, right? I think though, there are times when I have to justify too many people why that's not a good decision and that's not a bad decision. How do you handle stress? Any type of meditation practices, exercising? You just put your head in the sand. Exactly. I'm looking at you and struggling. You're like, I put my head in a pillow. I actually think I manage stress pretty well. Okay. Are you stoic? Are you stoic? So you mean you're neutral regardless of the ups and downs? No, I think I just expect them. I think part of managing stress is to understand that it's going to come. And especially as an entrepreneur or a leader, it's inevitable. I also find something that I really love. So the way that interior design came into play was because interior design, I love my house. I redo my house. I'm actually redoing some of it now. So what I do is when I get into a stressful moment, I move away and go to something that makes me feel really good so that I can focus on that. And I'm not focused on whatever is stressing me. I think my key has always been to know what's coming and then find something else that's going to make me feel equally good so I can rebalance. Nice. I like it. Any other daily habits, routines? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So as an entrepreneur, I'm going to tell you two. So as an entrepreneur, my daily habit is I get up in the morning, every morning, 5, 6 a.m., even on weekends. I make sure I check my emails and my bank account, right? So it's important that we know our cash flow. That's the habit. And then I listen. Every morning I have a team meeting with my team and I let them leave the day. So I do a lot of empowerment with my team and give them a lot of autonomy. So those are strong daily habits. At the end of the day, I make sure that I take a few minutes to do something just for myself, regardless of whether it's scrolling on Instagram or it's watching a television show that it's non-business related. So no CNBC or Fox News or none of that. I'm not a big exerciser, but it could be anything. It could be going outside and just walking with my dogs. So those are some things I make sure I take a time for. I don't know if I can say it on your show, but I will. I think the one thing I never forget to do is to eat with my family and to say a prayer. No, that's great. That's great. A couple more questions and we're going to wrap up. What does work-life balance look like for you? Oh my God. Did you say work-life balance? What's that? I know. You asked me about onboarding, right? And then you asked that question. And that's really something we talk about. Listen guys, this is buzzword about work-life balance. And what we do in GovCon, there's really no work-life balance. We're taking it though. So work-life balance for me means that I will work seven days a week for eight hours versus seven days a week for 12. But I do think that work-life balance is, I appreciate it when I get it, but in the GovCon space, I don't expect a lot, especially since I'm still, as we talked about growing after being in business for 12 years, I'm still trying to push my, to push my own. That's good. When did you get 8A? At what point in the business? I came right in with it. So I started my 8A came through 2011. Well, no, because you did three years as a consultant. So I mean, so I'd say about three years then. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. No, because again, some people want to start when they, before they form their LLC, they want to go into 8A. And my advice, if I can give, so I sit on a board member for Buoy Abic, which is an incubation center. And one of the things that we're- What's the name of again? Say it again? Buoy Bic. Okay. And it's on the campus of Buoy State University. And we have an 8A accelerator program. And the one thing I'll tell people is, wait before you get your 8A, you only get nine years. It is not a guaranteed a contract, but it does open doors for you. And if you don't have relationships, you have wasted years in doing it. So absolutely. Anybody listening to this podcast, please build your relationship arsenal. Build your infrastructure. Build everything you need so that you can collect those millions of dollars on contracts without worrying about how you're going to fulfill it. Do not do it right away. Where do people get that from about starting at 8A or so soon? What? Where do you think that comes from? You're in DC. Come on. I get this question every single other day. Like, I mean, two, every two days, someone's like, I'm going to get 8A. I'm going to get it. You don't have a company. I know, but they don't have to get people to the point where even people now believe you have to have an 8A to win contracts. Well, I have a lot more than that. But I think where it came from is that someone thought of somebody thinks that it's a golden ticket. If you have an 8A, people can just give you contracts. Someone had to say that first. Yeah, someone had to. Someone had to be coming from someone's wants to be like saying that to people. But can I tell you? I think that it was 20 years ago. 20 years ago, it wasn't a saturated. 20 years ago, everybody can do it. 20 years ago, there wasn't necessarily woman-owned small businesses that you could take it. It was so different. But what I will say to you is that the 8A Small Business Program is a great stair step. It teaches you. The 7J program they have is a training tool where you can go online and get a lot of classes. You can take a lot of online classes. I think it's a great tool for the right person. But I do believe that you're not going to sit down at the computer and just because your 8A, your phone's going to automatically ring. It doesn't work like that. I've worked with more people who have wasted five years of their lives because at five years, you have to transition out. So they spent five years and don't have any contracts. And I'm like, when did you get it? Oh, I was only in business three years. I'm like, did you already get mine? Was it already set up? And I can tell you, we came into the 8A program with about $3 million in contracts. But guess what? It was with DOD. So I came in with contracts, but in 2013, DOD shipped their funds. Didn't have as much funding. So then I had to spend two more years trying to build relationships with agencies before I could contract. I think we do it. I would have waited until 2016, 17 until now. I had a strong past performance outline where I can say, hey, look, take a chance, let me. Right. Wow, that's very good. That's a good point. What is your 8A, the Accelerator program, what is that about? What does it do? I just, I didn't even know about it. So the 8A Accelerator program helps people who have an 8A already. So you have to be 8A certified, and we come in and help you understand and navigate what that means. So that people don't think that it's a loan to take in. Right. They think it's a loan because it's required. That they understand how to market it and what to do and all the things that are going to make them successful in getting those sole source contracts. And what it means, once you take a certain amount of sole source contracts, be aware, because, again, when you get to that five-year mark, they're going to start stopping you. You don't want to be that company that gets a new mark, but SBA says you can't get any more sole source contracts. Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Tell me, do you have any, I know that we talked before the show started and we talked about your mom and about waking up every Saturday at 7 a.m. to clean up. Are there any household chores that you like doing or dislike doing? Oh, what? All of them. Seven, eight, nine years old. I mean, not as a child. As an adult. Oh, you don't like my before? What? I can not say. Okay. I'm going to tell you the truth. Go ahead. And I got in trouble. So I got in trouble in college and they told, they put me on community service. So I had to go do some community service and they gave, they said you could do community service or you could pay 150 dollars. So I said, okay, I'll do community service. They gave me a mop. I said, I quit. Y'all be the hundred percent. Mop and floors is, and you know what it is? It's like, I don't know. I think I've dripped the mop too hard. I can't, it's just the worst thing in the world. I get it. I will dust furniture. I will wash walls all day long. You put a vacuum or a mouth on my hand. I'm like, I quit. I quit. I like that. That was a good one. If you were not doing this, what else would you be doing? Real estate. Okay. I would definitely bow. So if I wasn't in the real estate at all industry, what would I do? Oh, you know what I wanted to be? What? I wanted to be a buyer. So I like fashion. So when I was in college, I was going to go through the Bloomingdale's executive training program to become a buyer for Bloomingdale's. And so my path changed. So if I was not doing what I do, I would go back and try to do that. And as a matter of fact, proven management should watch out because I got a job offer yesterday from Pottery Barn and I got a job offer from Neiman Marcus about two months ago. Except for, yeah, yep. Do what? I want to be in the sales. I'm going to go, yeah, I can use the discount. You are frugal. You are frugal. I love that. I love that. Listen, I don't want to take it much for your time. Just, you know, closing out, tell small businesses out there some words of advice, encouragement, support, you know, something that you maybe tell your leadership team. Yeah, absolutely. So to all my small business friends out there, one, enjoy the ride while you had it. It's going to feel in the dark sometimes, you don't know which way to go. But as I tell my team, practice walking in the dark by simply turning off the lights around your house and walking around so you know the lay of the land. Government contracting is just like that. Small business entrepreneurship is just like that. Once you learn how to walk in the dark, you can walk anywhere. Wow, thank you so much.