 Welcome back everybody welcome back or if you're just joining for for this session a warm welcome from the open group To this debate. We've got something. It's a little different here. It's our first virtual Debate that we've run in one of these sessions and very much looking forward to it. It's on a a topic that is Is much talked about Whether in whatever channel you're you're on on social media and LinkedIn and everywhere else enterprise architecture and agile Are they compatible or not? Do you need one if you're using the other so? That's the theme our host today for the Debate will be Sonya who you just heard from in the previous session And our debaters I will just introduce them We have arguing that enterprise architecture is key for the agile team success is Chris Frost of Fujitsu Chris has worked for Fujitsu since 2005 in a variety of technical leadership roles At present. He's a principal enterprise architect within the application technology consulting division Which provides guidelines standards and expert technical support for the global Fujitsu group? previous to this he has been the CTO for various business units in Fujitsu UK and Ireland on large accounting contracts for several Fujitsu customers and Not in his bio, but I should note Chris is also a valued member of the open group governing board. So welcome Chris Debating the common position today We have Vishal Kumar who is a set the TOCAF certified professional and working group leader for digital technology adoption Roadmap series guide and is currently working as a consultant and associated with EY India Vishal is also ITIL certified and has enhanced his career experiences with an MBA in telecom management so welcome Vishal and I'm gonna leave you in Sonya's capable hands and I wish you both The best of luck with the debate. Okay. Thank you very much for that presentation Steve We are having we're having quite a very interesting topic today Which is EA supporting agile an enterprise agility and we have a pro and a composition in here The proposition is enterprise architect who has a practice on the role of the enterprise architects are key for agile team success This is going to be defended by Chris Frost and the other one is agile teams Do not need support from enterprise architect. We're just going to be a presented by Vishal like Steve just said so So this is the structure first a very quick introduction And then it will be a proposition Declaration and we're also going to explain some rules Then we're going to have the first vote which the audience is going to vote against or in the composition Then a Chris and and we shall we have some time for a stand for their positions Then we are going to have some Q&A Question or comments from audience or encourage you to use the Q&A facility to give your points in there Because that you are very important for us your feedback Then it's going to be some for and again summation of the positions We are going to revoke again to see if the debate has changed shift the mind of the audience And then we're going to have some conclusions delivered by our debaters today so with no further and Delay we're going to explain very quickly some rules first Well, any of the debaters we have some time to stand their position with a speaking clearly and with a very clear consists statements and keeping the debate in personal and professional Audience are asked to start putting their comments on the Q&A facility There will be commented later on and then it will be in the vote Debaters also should cast their vote and in the case of a tie also the host in this case my person would be able to also vote So please go ahead and take the vote whenever you let you know that the facility is available We have already explained who our debaters is so thank you Chris and be sure for this effort and I've already introduced myself I delivered the previous presentations on Sonya Gonzalez the Togo product manager and Of course or attendees your participation is very important. We are interesting to know your views So please take the time to comment in the Q&A facility and then this the both so I will hand over to our Supporters in the in the event you will have a few minutes four to five minutes to both to vote either the for the against position or to abstain if you don't have a Specific view on this again, and the proposition is that the projectators as a practice And the role the architects are key for agile team success and the against position is agile teams Do not need support from enterprise architectures. So and Please stay your time for go into the polling facility and and cast your votes in there Okay, we're going to give one more minutes to this to see if people cast their votes So how we have so far we have 45 responses. So please go ahead and get us know your views about this Okay, we have 65 votes of the moment We're going to give one more minute to give you a chance to cast your votes and then we are going to start with the debate Okay, more than 100 votes great So the things we are going pretty well and one more minutes and we are going to start and proceed with the next Point which is precisely there for the debate is to start their position So now I think we can close the vote now. So perhaps if we can see the results on the screen Okay, interesting. So we have More people for the for position Okay, interesting. We have a few with the against and we have a blue with the abstain. So Let's see what happens after the debate a standard positions and so keeping mind this chart for later on Okay, thank you for that. And now we're going to proceed with the 10 minutes that Chris is going to have To stand his position. So Chris. Thank you for joining us in this debate. So over to you now Okay, thank you very much Sonia. So let's just move on to the next slide Right, well, everybody is Sonia said in the introduction my name is Chris Frost and I'm from Fujitsu And this is the proposition I'm supporting today and I see from the poll. I've got a pretty high Pretty hard bar to jump up there Enterprise architecture as a practice and the role of the enterprise architect are key for agile team success So I want to Start the debate Want to start the debate by looking at the very beginning of the agile delivery movement the manifesto for agile software development And this is something that's often put in front of you When people are perhaps arguing that maybe agile development doesn't need some of the techniques and the processes that you know might be characterized as a little bit more rigid and Constraining than is appropriate for agile delivery. And it's because of words like this in the manifesto We are uncovering better ways. We've come to value individuals and interactions over processes and tools working software over comprehensive documentation and Responding to change over following a plan and that sounds well, that sounds pretty bad for enterprise architecture but If we move on What's the what's the very next sentence in the agile manifesto? It says that is while we while there is value in the items on the right We value the items on the left more. Okay There is value in the things on the right things on the right are the things like the processes and tools the documentation the plan and Of course, it's natural to say it's quite right to say the things on the left are valued more because it's things like the working software And obviously that is what the CEO of a company or in the customers who are using The services, that's what they use that is clearly the most valuable thing But there is value in those other things on the right hand side and if we want to think about that a little bit more then think about Some of the other things that are published in the manifesto on the very same website There's an interesting page on the history of the agile manifesto is a little piece of it written by one of the authors of the original statement Jim Highsmith and he says The agile movement is not anti methodology. In fact, many of us want to restore credibility to the word methodology We embrace modeling but not in order to file diagrams in some dusty corporate repository We embrace documentation, but not hundreds of pages have never maintained and rarely use tomes We plan but we recognize the limits of planning in the turbulent environment so Coming back to the proposition enterprise architecture is a practice and the role of the enterprise architect a key for our job team success Let's think now. Let's look now at some of the things that are in some of the popular Agile delivery frameworks Let's start with what's probably the most famous of all The most popular of all safe a couple of things I've taken straight off the safe website here. So credit where it's due This is from scaled agile on their website You can see there that safe explicitly recognizes the role of the enterprise architect and some of the things that the enterprise Architect should do like be involved in the technology choices and the implementation strategies and so on And safe definition of enterprise architecture again recognizes that role of enterprise architect and some of those Familiar architecture domains that any of us trained in togaff would recognize things like business architecture and information architecture and so on And it's not just safe if we look at If we look at some of the other agile delivery methods For example disciplined agile Dad we see that also recognizes this thing called enterprise architect and enterprise architecture And it's key role linking up some of the things like delivery and governance and technology roadmaps and so on so the evidence for enterprise architecture In agile deliver delivery, I would say is pretty strong now When you look at those methods and if you dive into them in detail You'll see language that might be a little bit unfamiliar perhaps things like intentional architecture emergent architecture Architecture runway and guard rails and things like this But these are concepts that map easily onto enterprise architecture frameworks like togaff So my key point here is that sure Enterprise architecture needs to be adapted for agile teams, but not abandoned Now let's look at something a little bit different Thinking again about enterprise architecture as a practice and the role of the enterprise architect being key for agile team success I want to look at an example now that Some of you might find a little bit surprising in a debate about agile and enterprise architecture rather magnificent picture of Saturn 5 launching Apollo 11. So I'm thinking about the Apollo program here I might surprise some of you. You might be thinking what is the Apollo program to do with enterprise architecture and agile delivery Well, they might not have used the term enterprise architecture in the program But they certainly did things like enterprise architecture There was strategic planning and architecture prior to the solution delivery linked to the business objectives for example the whole concept of having a separate lander spacecraft that Separated from the main spacecraft in lunar orbit and descended to the moon that was decided back in 1962 Which was five years ahead of the first flight Guy called John Hubolt was mainly responsible for that and he might not have called himself an enterprise architect But he was certainly doing enterprise architecture roles But you might say come on be serious Apollo. Was that really an agile delivery project? Well, okay, they might not have done two-week sprints and they might not have talked about things like backlogs and things like that, but they most certainly did Many of the things do in agile programs. There was an incremental Delivery of increasing business value. Let's remember it was release 11 from the program that landed on the moon Apollo 11 not Apollo 1 not Apollo 2 Number 11 in a series of releases each one of increasing value and capability to the program There was most certainly feedback and learning many examples I could choose here But one is that some fuel pipes had to be redesigned after release 6 Apollo 6 Because of some severe vibrations in the spacecraft that was caused by a problem with the fuel pipe design and The program must certainly knew how to pivot anybody you've seen the film Apollo 13 or has read up about it we'll know how the mission had to Pivot in an instant when there was that explosion on the way to the moon and the program had to pivot in the blink of an Eye to get the astronauts safely home again using the lunar module, which was never designed for that purpose So they did many of the things that you would see done in agile delivery And finally to think about that proposition the final part is success Well history shows it was a success It did fulfill the vision statement the statement there from Kennedy about Going to the moon and safely returning to the earth History shows that indeed Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin did indeed land on the moon and return safely to the earth However However, I realize of appeal to a rather extreme example there of projects in time and cost and complexity So let's bring it a little bit back down to earth and think about some of the very basic principles of enterprise Architecture and I don't think I'd express that better than something I found here from the Federation of Enterprise Architecture professionals it was something published in 2013 Something I believe the open group contributed to along with a number of public and private sector Organizations and they published this paper called a common called common perspective on enterprise architecture And they have this this wonderful summary of what is there about enterprise architecture? You break it down to its most simple its most basic things and it's that cycle of reflecting where you're at Determining where you need to go creating the plans to get there and then executing on those plans And you can and if you know togaff you can straight away put some things in those boxes like the as is model the to be model the migration Plans and the implementation governance Very familiar very sensible things to anybody in enterprise architecture and also things that fit very well in agile delivery frameworks So if I come back just one last time to that proposition enterprise architecture as a practice and the role of the enterprise architect a key for agile team success I hope I've shown by looking at some of these things going right back to the beginning of the agile manifesto Some of the things that are present in the major agile delivery frameworks safe and dad Example from the Apollo program and then going back to the very fundamental essence in that delivery cycle I hope I've demonstrated quite clearly through that that these three things the enterprise Enterprise architecture are vital to agile teams to give success. Thank you very much Back to you Sonya Okay, thank you Chris. That was a very interesting Presentation on position. So now we are going ahead. We go to the next slide to visual presentation So we show you are going to have also 10 minutes to stand for your position. We can perhaps move to the next slide To start with visuals presentation They show you have control of the slides Okay Okay, so you have 10 minutes for your presentation. Okay, go ahead Yeah, so thanks Sonya Great presentation by my fellow Chris So this is the composition ladies and gentlemen agile team do not need support from enterprise architecture No, no just to begin with this is my views and and not the organizations position on this topic Now this is a very interesting topic, you know, and then for this topic I did Leverage one of the toolkit from consumer behavior. This is known as top of the mind recall now In my working group of the open group I asked few of the members what would come to their mind when they heard the term enterprise architecture and What comes to their mind when they hear the term agile the result of this small Experiment or survey was quite intriguing because what's comes in their top of the mind of I'll show in the next slide is quite fascinating Now towards the left side It's the five attributes with more frequency in their responses which which was more related to strategy high-level overview strategic vision governance Non-functional requirements. So if you want to bucket these things it comes as a strategic Concept, however when it comes to agile and the top five attributes which comes to the responded minds It was about just enough architecture Less of documentation high collaboration team frequent delivery. So, you know one one clear cut demarcation between these two leading frameworks which comes to my mind After this response, which I have received from the people was a clear demarcation one Enterprise architecture kind of dealing with the strategic Part per se vis-a-vis when it comes to agile. It's it's more about the technical code level execution part so there the perceived notion of these two you know architectures or these two frameworks are quite different and there is a clear demarcation now after this You know after these Demarcations I've tried to find through research is what could be the you know, how agile team and you might not Keep the intended result over here. There are five Rationals, which I would like to present as my case for the composition It starts with the adherence to agile manifesto And and then there are agile frameworks and its readiness Applicability feasibility information asymmetry and and two of the tenets from Tam model, which was Developed by Davis so it's like perceived usefulness and perceived ease of use. So we will drill down in these five rationales starting with the first one which is Adhiring to agile manifesto and agile skidding principles now in agile team when we have worked You know, so agile team are the cracks or the guiding principles which agile give Impetus on is the bottom-up innovation It's very important. If you see any agile team, there are lots of innovations which comes from the developers of the agile team And and and they give focus on, you know, the bottom-up innovation new Challenges to the status quo those kind of things Now my question over here is with enterprise architect coming up and then, you know, kind of leveraging the team structure With that whether it will impede the innovation or innovation aspect of the agile team So this is a question which needs to be answered Similarly agile also encourages rapid changes So, you know, and then they are the self-reliant agile team So it's it's already a cross-functional team members from various backgrounds coming together So the perceived notion of agile team is that it's self-sufficient They don't need someone to help them or guide them for the delivery. So this is the self-reliant agile team And and lastly as Chris also mentioned about the agile manifesto So the 68 words of agile manifesto, which which I will show you So, you know, so these are the 68 words of agile manifesto Which which kind of if you can read these things, it's like individual and interactions over processes and tools similarly customer collaboration over contract negotiations responding to change over following a plan Though they value the right side, but you know, they they kind of underscore the left side more now over here Again, we have to ask a question whether enterprise architect with agile Whether it will impede these guidelines these principles or what would be the end result This brings to the second point through the research which I find out that Maturity of agile framework in terms of a applicability is also a question which needs to be asked now So there was one research in which they have find out 20 agile frameworks to be precise They were 20 scaled agile frameworks and out of those 20 ladies and gentlemen for frameworks We're having applicability of enterprise architecture. In fact few were Architecture and and only three was Featuring enterprise architecture in the research and Out of those four or three also the details and how to guide was not Comprehensive now when I say about how to guide there are four things which comes to my mind First is the area of contribution where EA will contribute What would be the commitment of an enterprise architect in an agile team? What would be the responsibility whether it will be an active responsibility or it would be a passive Responsibility or a passive support What would be the strategy how it will come in that scrum team if it's a screen scrum framework being used How these things will be there? No detail as such is exhaustively mentioned over the research I'll show you this was one of the findings from the researchers Well in the left side, you can see there are 20 frameworks out of which the three highlighted are kind of You know matured enough in terms of contributions and cases and documentations So so out of these 20 now now we'll go to the drill down of what what the researchers have found out So you can see these are the four ones DSDM safe Displained agile 2.1 2.0 ea da GP so these four mentions architect's role in a way out of these four also Safe da 2.0 ea dgp mentions enterprise architect. That's I have highlighted for you for easier identification So ladies and gentlemen, I would like to reiterate These are not only for these are out of 20 for agile frameworks mentioned The ea applicability in their frameworks or in their guides. So this research is bit dated. That is it's dated 2017 So certain things would have improved in the right direction But this we have to keep in mind because the handshake is always two ways Now this brings to a third very important factors, which is applicability and feasibility So researchers have said that on a high level strategy front. Yes, they can go There is a chances where agile and ea can go together. However, when it comes to low level Technology development coding should we leave it for agile alone? I mean because they are self-reliant team as per the guidelines So should we leave it for them alone? Or is there a really need for enterprise architect to come there and help in the architecture? There is also a fear of over architecting. It's very important that we don't do overdo something You know just because you want to do so fear of over architecting is there very much prevalent So we have to be sure enough that we are doing it in a right way And then last In this subheading is cost of continuous remodeling. So when we say agile team, you know, there are changes which happens over a minute You know, uh, so in a meeting there will be three four changes which can just just uh, with consensus it will just pass away So will the business Is happily accepting those costs which will be associated with such continuous ongoing remodeling So this is again a question which needs to be discussed deciphered and and uh, with consensus the team has to decide Fourth point is related to information asymmetry now researchers One of the research mentioned that though enterprise architect understands what developers are doing And they can appreciate their role. However Our developers might not understand the role or the contribution which enterprise architects are making Now this information asymmetry is is pretty huge and it's very important that these these Asymmetry needs to be bridged Wherein developers are appreciating the role of enterprise architect and vice versa So it's very important communication channels effectiveness of the communication is a key in any any engagement any projects Last in this point the the second point is Uh agile and non agile team, you know, when I say this I mean Let's say there is a program Or a project and these program or projects ladies and gentlemen consist of both agile team and non agile team because it's a large scale projects so how will fit in Such programs wherein there are agile team and non agile team working together What would be the role of enterprise architects there? So these are the questions again, we have to find the answer to and we have to play cut Define how we are going to approach it Fifth point is related to perceived usefulness and perceived ease of use Now over here important is value quantification or the return of investment How will you demarcate a project with only agile team working in it Vis-a-vis a second project in which there is ea plus agile coming together What would be the return on investment? Because ea is not Coming for free right there is a cost to it. So how will you quantify the value of the second team ea plus agile vis-a-vis one team in which This is a question Last point over here Is related to governance approach now ea favors a lean lightweight decentralized collaborative governance approach However ea, you know coming in winner agile team it it might not support that way So how ea can be customized so that Governance approach can be lightweighted can be collaborative and can be decentralized So these two aspects needs to come together so that there would be a value Otherwise it would be a over over architecting So, you know, so these are the factors from my side which are Really important and which we have to keep in mind that enterprise architects should support agile team be more agile And it should not be the other way around That's it from my side Over to you Sonia Okay. Thank you visual. It was a very interesting position. So now we are going ahead on the debate And now we wanted to hear from you from our attendees I have seen quite a set of very interesting Comments in the chat. So we have a few minutes like 10 minutes To read this however, I wanted to give one or more more minutes For you to post your comments on your questions in the q&a facility And then we are going to go very quickly over them and we're going to test if the comments are Supporting or in the against or the cons position And and after that, we are going to have like the summation from the debater So we're going to give one more minutes for For you to comment and use your feedback over the channel and then we are going to To start like sharing the results With all of you Okay, I think what that is happening. I will start sharing some of the comments So we have one that is quite interesting It said I have seen breakdowns between agile teams where APIs were built against separate design and standard with the architect of playing a center rule Ensuring consistency this created a big breakdown upon release and additional sprints to erode the code Be waste of time business miss its product launch commitment Interesting comment another comment in relation with the with the rocket launch, but at the end it has to be a big man Okay, the other one since we deal mostly with software and so where it's so easy to build in an agile fashion Why do I have to be on the a why not just reference existing models? It seems to be like Again this position we have another one which is related with the founder of agile states and we have A link in here stating that agile manifesto was corrupt in the very beginning was never to be just Limited to working software. That is the least of it I think this refers to the fact that agile should imply the agile enterprise And only software delivery. So it seems Inevitable to support the overall view of e8 Another one more a comment than a question Interpreter architecto is very important for the success of agile This is also my experience in practice and adjusting theory. But what kind of enterprise architecture? So while agreeing with the importance of ea to agile, it will respectfully disagree with how ea is defined in this talk Okay, this is a an interesting comment. I think it's some feedback for us So agile needs to be ea needs to be adapted to fulfill agile Another comment my fear is on the architect team letting teams to go far out on their own creating solutions They are unique and far too far out of the standard for proper integration with other business systems Okay, this is another important comment. We have seen this A lot of debates into the architecto forum about how how is the right amount of architecture that we need to do Another one I have seen over coding against the garden of architecto Seems to support the previous ones because of the minimal by our architecto in here A comment about visual position appears to be based on a one of the other thinking I read that these are complementary ea and agile can be leveraged effectively to address Different sculpt within the same program on project. This seems to be also more on the side of the Of the positive position or the comes against position And let me see we have more comments in here Agile team is normally levered value for a product. Do you agree that it is essential that you have A good tension between product versus enterprise too much focus on product can drive up enterprise costs Too much focus on enterprise can stifle innovation and value. Okay, this is about the balance between product Enterprise architecto or or enterprise. Which is also another interesting view As one of my primary responsibilities of an ea program is to position our organization to take advantage Of mark and disruptor to gain a competitive advantage Agility and innovation are essential through all the organization in the absence of ea It is uncertain how they enterprise Why knowledge sharing collaboration required to ensure agility and innovation would be achieved wherever operating in a silhouette manner of center of ea strategy And businesses side who agile teams ensure the platform force They deliver advanced the organization a competitive advantage And sufficiently address dynamic market change and customer demands. This is also seems to support the need of having ea ea and agile are complementary Based on positions It's it's also fine in that regard Agile teams can be too silent to focus on hurry up and deliver something Anything without ea provide ambition across all the silhouettes the individual teams can disappear down Dead ends another position. It seems to support the use of ea In the survey the question is about scaling agile frameworks, but in reality The established agile frameworks are not more than 10 most influential let's say is that nexus, etc This is about the Agile frameworks more to see in here. I don't see a contradiction between the two presenters Agile does know how to be closing in the development of solutions ea function and agile teams Can and should complement each other. Okay another interesting position how the two views collaborate together Another one being agile without ea is like being fast on things that may not be the right things ea ensure the right things are executed Good position also seem to support the presence of ea. We'll read a couple more If requirement goals require for agile sprint team then ea inputs and artifacts are required to go lead and successful deliver But the current fact is too many organizations has not realized the value of ea and that's a painful truth Another position in favor another one. I have seen solution architects role bringing the gap between ea and functional teams to be really successful Okay, so this seems to support that we may not be ea that much Okay, then the last one that I will read the lack of time first the agile manifesto is an opinion and a direction But not the viable to implement agile. Secondly, many of the agile frameworks mentioned have been deprecated Okay, thank you. I think we have quite a very good set of interesting positions now So I guess we're going to see now after the summation of the positions How these have been may affected the vote at the end. So can we move to the next slide, please? Okay, thank you for giving me the control. So we have already Here's your feedback and comments very valuable by the way. Very good. So now we are going to have Two minutes and please I need to ask you to please stand to two minutes is part of the debate You need to be able to summarize your position in a few words So we're going to start with Chris. So please you will have exactly two minutes to restate your position And immediately after that, we're going to go with visual with the same. So go ahead, Chris Okay, thank you very much, Sonia Um, well, there's been some interesting points. Uh, they're raised by the audience and in the the two minutes I've got uh, I can't possibly um go through and respond to any of them individually But I take some I take some good heart from the fact that none of them seem to be heavily against the idea that enterprise architecture is a necessary thing for Agile teams and indeed many of them, I would say are broadly supportive Coming back to a point that I think one of the one of the comments did did make It's true that there are many Different agile delivery frameworks out there and not all of them do talk about Enterprise architecture or indeed architecture at all in some cases But I think one of the most telling things is that certainly current market statistics that I've seen show that safe is by far the most popular agile at scale framework and Seen very clearly that that does identify the need both for the role of the enterprise architect and the function of enterprise architecture And that's not just some sort of theoretical thing It's it's simply because when you're doing these large-scale programs you need those sort of high level Outline design and and planning decisions made so that the work of the later delivery teams Is coherent and built on the right sort of foundations. Some of you raised the great point about apis and if you didn't make a decision in advance about What type of apis you were going to use what sort of protocols you were going to follow what sort of api patterns You were going to follow then how on earth do we think that separate Delivery teams within a large program could actually produce a coherent solution and similarly Platform type type decisions need to be taken in advance so that separate components of a solution can be Built to collaborate as they need to to produce a coherent solution so while I recognize that in some Very small perhaps and very specific cases then An emergent architecture might be sufficient. I think the practical things that we get involved in in business Are rarely of that size and scale It's the larger programs where the enterprise architecture is necessary having that guidance having that High-level approach and planning worked out and that's where we critically need the enterprise architect and the function of enterprise architecture And I think I'll close on that Thank you chris for that. So now come to you. Vishal. You also have Two minutes to state your summation. So please go ahead Yeah, thank you so much. Sonia. So interesting comments from our viewers You know, but but I would like to reiterate some of the pointers The the crux is yes, the two Frameworks can go together as well as agile However, those five pointers and the sub points, which I mentioned needs to be well defined needs to be, you know understood Needs to be of it, you know, and then only it will be a successful implementation of ea plus agile Over here Again, I would like to reiterate one more important thing that agile Is there right but when we say ea it should complement agile in all the ways so that agile team becomes more agile It should not impede the basic fundamental of agile and then You know, then it would be a good successful engagement or a project So that complement thing should be there on both sides And the last point of which I would like to communicate as a enterprise enterprise architect We all have to be conscious of our evolving role when we are talking about agile Which means now the developer should also understand what ea is doing And so so the role is vast now We have to take the entire team together if it is going to be applied with the agile team So we have to be ready with upskilling ourselves so that we can take the entire team together keeping those five pointers challenges bottlenecks in line and and having answer to those things In advance so that the implementation would be a success with this Over to you Sonia Okay, thank you. Vishal. That was a very good summation. So now we are going into The interesting part so we need to ask you to vote again the same options that we have in the first round Either for the four or the against possession or you can also stay And then whenever we have finished that we are going to give you a couple of minutes to vote We are going to to come some conclusions Comparing the two results the one we had at the beginning and the one that we had at the end So please you have two minutes now to vote It seems to be that the The voting is closed can we open in that again so people can That is It seems to be open again. I'm not sure Yes, I'm also seeing the message poll is closed. I'm not sure if others are seeing the same Yes, you have been a new poll to to compare the results of the first one Could it be possible to have that quickly put over? The poll is open folks. Yeah, okay The before debate poll is closed, but the after debate poll is open. They're 56 points so far Ah, yeah, now I click on the polling button again. Yes, it's refreshed it so now Vote now Okay, good Okay, I think time is up now. So we can can we please have the results on the screen to see we can have some Some contrasts with the previous one Okay, so interesting So numbers are a little bit Small for my end, but I think we have more or less the same trend We have little less votes from the previous one in the previous round we had 85% of people voting for the first for the fourth position and it seems a similar trend Actually, it's a little bit higher. So it seems like We may have convinced more people About this always for fashion now So yeah, I think like we have convinced more people and the trends seem to be that most attendees believe that enterprise architecture is important for agile, which is Something good because you know, we understand that the practice Like we have said in several presentations today and this before it needs to have a shift to become agile. So And after this we're going to the final conclusion. So can we go back to the slides, please? Q Okay, so So some conclusions so perhaps one final comment from you Chris and Vishal before closing the debate Yep final comment then. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Okay, sorry So well first of all official thanks a good debate. I know a difficult position to put forward And I suppose let's be honest in a toga fuser group We shouldn't be surprised that there's support for the idea that an enterprise architect is is necessary in in our job delivery and So perhaps not as surprised that we've already seen a very a very small shift in the numbers Um, I think the message does come through loud and clear that never, you know, we all accept that Some of the things we've learned in the past need to be adapt need to be adapted changed a little bit For enterprise architecture to work in the context of our job delivery But you know, I firmly believe it is still absolutely necessary. And I think the poll today has borne that out Thank you, Chris. Be sure one final comment from you Oh, yeah, it's it's a one liner from my side that as enterprise architect. We have to be agile enough You know, so enterprise architect being agile and delivering a agile project in an Advanced way is is the key to success But yeah, it's it was a beautiful debate from Chris and you know, apollo 13 example was was something something amazing So yep with that, uh, you know over to you sonia. Okay. Thank you very much Chris and we so thank you for joining us in this debate this virtual debate. I think it has been quite interesting Thank you for our attendees, you know comments were quite Interesting show some experience, which is always good So if I have flying a final remark, please take the look of these key resources You will see in here the open group library certification programs our blog will find interesting Blogs in there one of them by the way a few of them are about agile And the open group architect to for the digital enterprise, which is something we presented earlier And for those of you, there are still not members with the open group You will find some interesting membership information so you can join us and contribute to the delivery of these new practices into the market So, thank you very much everyone for attending this Virtual debate and over to you now. Thank you