 We are on every week chair July 26 2018 planning Commission meeting like to welcome everyone to the planning Commission meeting Before we get going we have a couple amendments to the agenda The first is the addition of item under other business for 73 Jericho Road, Mylar and David Do you have a suggestion for a change? Yeah, it's just Wondering on the wording whether we got a change number four because it's not a construction. It's a renovation in addition and reduction So they haven't built that building yet This was this was Staff report says that it's a layoff Well, it was a previously proved site plan by Hector to come in for a warehouse. Oh, I see okay, and So it's still we're good Okay, all right, then I guess it was just the one correction then So before we get going I'd like to swear everyone in so if any Valueed audience could please stand and you swear that any testimony you present this evening will be truthful to the best of your abilities Thank you Next item on our agenda is public comment This is an opportunity for folks to give us any comment on items that are not on the agenda So if there are some this is a good chance if not we'll move on The next item we have is Peter Edelman doing business as your West retail partners. This is a conceptual discussion And Peter I'd actually instead of reading it in I'd actually just like to open it up and just have you Give us a description and give us a give us a run-through conceptual So let us know I've read the comments, and I'm certainly not wedded to this from to this particular Description or plan but What I what I want to do what I'm trying to do is to create some public areas that will work And some entertainment areas that that will work looking to slow down the traffic generally because I'm I've got two spots that concern me after being there for 20 some years The two spots that concern me and Nate and probably other ways to deal with it But one is that the through here and oftentimes people are not stopping here. They're going pretty fast I can't police that right now Have the existing if you want to pull that up Yes, yeah, sure The existing is obviously come in theater being down here coming straight through So That was why I did the curve on this road here and to create a larger to incorporate this quad into a larger quad Thinking that there is a connector here, but this traffic could come through here It can come down here. It really has nowhere to go here ultimately I'd love to see this road go all the way out up to McDonald's and open up that way Right now the only way it can go is out this way and down or up and down And then in here I've just seen too many people the way that the mediums are placed and the way the parking is And we've had accidents in there, and I think it's just too easy to Go through here go through quickly and to back up or go forward and Create problems So I would I'd like to bring more safety into here, and I wanted to create something here That could be a public space that could be utilized part of The appeal here is I've got the Orbis space. I've got a really interesting Incubator restaurant that we're looking at doing in here that would want to come out and have outdoor Piazza type activity Clearly the brewery and the beer garden will bring something over here. We have something here that Or I do that that I really want to improve upon And then I ultimately want to do something here to also bring Probably come back at some point and have a garden out here and another so central So you have one two three four And then this area five areas that that will be entertainment and food related So that that's why I came up with this Quickly suggestions today where all maybe this can come down here Certainly open to that if we can create something a little wider here and incorporate the existing green Which is here into that so that there's something of substance One of the pieces I did want to do I mean initially we looked at an ice rink We had an ice rink down here that didn't work for a number of reasons With the town and liability issues Maybe it's something we can revisit the future But in looking at this what has come up that in dealing with the Mad Taco guys And one of their owners is a farmer and he does a lot of greenhouse growing so what I wanted to do was bring in Ideally in here more of an aquaponic greenhouse so that I could also part of what we want to do is is tourism based and educational based and the brewery and You'll hear from me at some point a distillery coming in here. There's one of the distillery owners teaches at VTC Chris Kessler who's doing the brewery is doing a sister-own project. So they're teaching beer and craft beer the aquaponic greenhouse concept If you don't know is is basically so we can grow Vegetables or it's all winter, but there's water going through this fish going through the fish then would go into here and Into the into the into the Mad Taco for tacos. So there's a Complete circle And from the from the beer the grain leftovers they can go back into the greenhouse or they can go to farmers We're trying to reuse and utilize everything and make it a system that works and by doing this bringing in the schools by doing the beer and the distillery I Want to bring that into the Essex and have retreats and bring in tourism where we can actually get on the beer trail get on the distillery get groups coming in and doing retreats with us and So I'm looking at something that that's going to bring synergy to everything that we have But that also the public can you know be a part of So not a whole lot of changes. I will be working with an architect to Reskin resurface all of the buildings. They're they're in bad need of it As you know, I've got solar here I've got a pose of the banks go solar on this building which will then bring us to basically a net zero usage Again a really good thing I've got to change my landscaping at some point get away from buildings pulled out so that It's more livable and more more shoppable more More usable that the buildings really would stay pretty much as they are and the roads and the landscaping Would be the biggest change So what's the drawing we had that shows a change in the alignment? That was public work. Yeah, because we do have right now There's an existing road coming down here that ties into this road by creating this quad It does change that alignment down to here So you would have to come down this way to maybe this might be maybe this needs to expand To really exit or an enter going this way So it inverts the traffic and you don't have this Grid that we had which grids are positive or negative. You know, that's how you look at it But you know, it's concepts. I'm very open to all kinds of input Try to make the best for what we all think is is going to work Dana there and Sharon any thoughts coming on this you guys Well, we just briefly got to talk to Peter this morning Sharon got to talk to a little bit earlier and We're just reacting to it to this plan against the both the 1991 master plan and the recently completed ETC next master plan and So we wanted to provide you some comments about our views on the site layout and Lockability and that kind of thing So Darren's gonna roll with it Thanks Dana so the idea of bringing more Public space here and more of like a community gathering spot is absolutely in line with both the 1991 master plan and the new ETC plan and that's really phenomenal Peter and I think we're all really pleased to see that We were all puzzled by the placement of the ice rink just because It's not in a place that would get a lot of pedestrian traffic to be perfectly honest I mean, we're not really sure how people would get there other than Across that village green And it seems like it might be better placed Somewhere in the crook of building a or building B. Like you said you've got an interest sorry I should have brought my laser Do you want me to hold my comments or is it open? No, this is this is a discussion. So yeah, let's let's just um, I I would disagree with that. I think from a pedestrian and accessibility Be it a nice rain core or a greenhouse I think you've got parking all around it and by having The walkway from building C, which is on the bottom going up that presents a safe quarter to approach it If you're in building B, you're you know, you got your walkways in front of the building You just come straight across and you create a walkway and you're right to it and the same for Really pretty much any parking quadrant there. I think it's very accessible by from a pedestrian standpoint But maybe it's not the right way for for what works within a grid structure if you want to have a grid structure, right? And that was the other really I should have started there with the grid structure Because you're placing that in the middle of your grid Really will make working around that difficult. So if you look at Properties nearby into the north right now it Common wealth app is planned to come down through between your buildings Big A and B here and really provides a nice streetscape for you so Associate with that is people coming down from that part parking along there having a lot of exposure for buildings along this frontage and Having a little more of a public realm right in front of them where you could have patios you could have people looking into storefronts And that's sort of what's in line with the ETC plan rate that's been proposed recently And it doesn't mean you can't do any You know plaza in this area or even you know anywhere else But that grid, you know is really gonna be the backbone upon which you can build the rest of Your property and also makes it easier to break it up into smaller chunks if you ever did subdivide or want to manage building separately it creates that block structure and I said Is your partition? Makes it easier for people to navigate I think Because it's hard to know where to go sometimes to get around this area as a pedestrian or as a car In a car So those are some of our thoughts it doesn't mean that it couldn't be done well And I think what you're doing right now You know creating that very strong connection to where bird is is absolutely great And just having that wide sort of pedestrian corridor that links those two buildings that's been missing for years The one concern I have from a safety perspective that this curved road is Cars will be going slow obviously and they should see this pedestrian Crossing but it's an uncontrolled crossing a mid-block crossing So if someone isn't paying attention, they're not going to be able to see as well There is someone waiting across Coming around that corner around that curve And I've seen that in many locations, you know where this isn't designed this way So that's just something to consider You might want to put in rapid flashing beacons if you just do want to go with this design Just to make sure that there is better visibility of one pedestrians are crossing Yes Again, so the Etc next master plan shows a vision for that area It it's a result of a planning process. It has absolutely no regulatory Effect on you. It's just something that the community has put together as a vision So to the extent that it reflects a lot of like surveys upon what I Think you can hear the community's voice through this plan and one thing people said Repeatedly is that they wanted to be able to move a lot around a little bit better and You know a grid like It's at it. Yeah a Grid like layout would be more traditional Pull people in pull people in right away without all the parking everywhere and not that Parking has to be taken seriously under this vision Yeah, but Dan if I could please I I'll do respect to this. There is no way financially Responsible that I can take or anybody can take the center for the cost That's out there tear down those buildings and try to create the type of building grid that you have there that just it's impossible It's not going to happen. So why look at something and use it as a template that is an impossible Reach No, you can't do that. It's just not going to happen. I think we recognize you're not going to tear these buildings down Financially, you know, that's it. So let me clarify the perspective that this gives is this is building Model or you know one vision for what this could look like based on the principles in the plan It doesn't have to look exactly like this It's just trying to show an example of what a street grid would look like but as I said Looking at where things are now in your plan Or in where things are Where things are today, sorry You know, we are there already is a grid here. I can go to zoom in apologies There already is a grid here that you can utilize Rather than taking that element out of your existing site So that's sort of where we were coming with that. I don't I don't disagree that I'm for you know, there's a In this plan. I know this is not Currently effective as far as your plans go, but you know, there's a proposed building here That could be a rice rancor, you know, there's other places that could go So let me jump in for a second Peter you've you've seen what they've done so far and I'm assuming that you're aware of the ETC direction and so forth. What do you see with this plan? Do you see is either contradictory or complementary to the to the overall? ETC goal Well, there is some contradiction to it because it doesn't have any residential component Which is one of the goals of the ETC, but that again is financially just not feasible It is contradictory in that it doesn't have the grid. I think it's a very complementary in that it gives That sense of community that the plan is is going after trying to fit that sense of community into a Reality of something that's going to work is what I guess we're all trying to do I'm open to that whatever, you know to make that work My point is just I I can't and I don't think anything in my lifetime Look to change buildings here and make financial sense out of it and what I would like to see would be something that is more Functional from a pedestrian standpoint and that brings people in here and keeps them in there Right now people are going in and out. It's it's one-point, you know shopping kind of reactions people don't Create as a place and and a small example is the food truck Night and I'm hearing it from everybody who's coming there finally something is happening here In Essex that is bringing people together and it's very well appreciated and just scratching the surface on with with what's happening now I Think the the overall Direction of this is going to bring a lot more of that together and I think that's part of the vision of the next but Paula you had a comment Plus is nice as far as the housing goes I mean that's the one thing that I heard so much concern about from people well that too Yeah, which way that we didn't need it or that it shouldn't be there And I and I still hear it. What is it with all these apartments and you know, it's You know people concerned that it's changing the character of Essex and So there's definitely a need you and I agree on what the need is that it may be quite different from apartments but and and that's another issue when there are places within the Larger town center the entire town center where Some of that kind of development apartment so much but but smaller homes retirement homes or first homes can happen but I mean The the big can I kind of like what Peter's presenting here. I have issues with a skating rink Peter I'll tell you why but I've Been the victim of poorly maintained interior skating rinks let alone exterior. So Um, the skating rink is not on the drawing board. I agree that I've looked at that. It didn't make sense It's a great idea first, but didn't make sense And I think the liability issues might be daunting anyway One of the big issues I think in terms of traffic is people coming in and out from Essex Way to anniversary So is there going to be a more? Can there be a more direct route so that you don't have as much of that through traffic? Is there a way to do it? Is is there a way to you know, have that road that goes behind? come down It's would have to be a part of it obviously used to be rolled behind behind the Theaters originally yeah, yeah, and there is again and we have that approved you can open that one way So that we don't have that about speed bumps It's going to be pretty slow. Yeah. Yeah, I think speed bumps there are some type are could you just so share? Can you have to at least state your name Zane Scott? Sorry, I mean We all we've all gone up there. Everybody here has gone up to How many people will really stop at the four-way stop sign not very many people stop I do I mean I See a lot of people don't a lot of people don't and I think speed bumps or Whatever you want to do to slow people down. I mean people or everybody's in a hurry Given that we're in a sort of conceptual. I'm not as concerned about the the detail level of you know Signage or speed bumps. I think those are all mechanisms that that certain goals can be achieved And you there's no reason why you couldn't make that curve a Little bit shallower so that there would be more visibility coming into that crossway Which curve the road curve that yeah right there. There's no reason why you couldn't make it a shallower curve So I want to I think Disagree because I think if you make it shallower you go back to the issue of a Faster traffic flow and he's talking about trying to slow the traffic flow down That's a I think it's a good way to do it Well, it may be a good way to do it But I do think that you're going to run into trouble because you're coming in at such an angle right at that crosswalk So I did want to make a couple comments on the plan as you can see Peter hire a planner With the concept and in the original concept that we gave the planner Was basically leaving you know that that regular road going through it and we showed a big green area in front And this is where we were going to concentrate You know the the public space and the plan which is a lot closer to the ETC plan but the planner came back and said well, you know that that's great for a pedestrian connection for this building But it kind of leaves this building on the other side of the road and the highway And he said you know if you want something that connects all the buildings and pedestrians, you know He came back and suggested moving the road and making this the center So now if you do go to Hanifers and you go to building one You know, it's an easy walk to get to the center area. It's Spale easy from this building to get to the center and then obviously you have the path through so You know he counted and said hey do a big green area here and that can be nice But you're isolated from your other main buildings. You still got to get across that road so certainly the The best part of this plan is the fact that it interconnects the buildings better than Focusing in front Well, I'll question the negative part of this plan is is the future connection to commonwealth You know and we can fix this so it lines up better like public works. That's no big deal I think the the planner just missed that portion of the plan when he did it But still as you come down commonwealth, it's still, you know a little awkward, you know to get To this portion of the project. So we've got pluses and we got minuses, you know, it's hard to If you keep that grid element the palm with the grid is now you're kind of breaking it up into the quadrants that the grids Does and it's hard to make everything feel Interconnected from walkability Perspective Darren, can you bring up the map that has this shows building F? Before I lose sight before I completely forget this Building F. He said building F is there Oh, sorry So It with that this sort of redesign. I would expect more traffic coming down commonwealth to peel off and go towards CVS or vice-versa things coming across Because you don't necessarily have a flow through right now, correct So an item for consideration is that corner by proposal building F and sweet clover. That's a blind corner It's a very blind corner right now. So that in my opinion Would not support an increase in traffic flow in its current state Whether it's signage whether it's redesigned with whatever the you've got a pretty high elevation on the right Whatever I mean that's it's It's a challenge and that's not on your parcel per se so I mean I think that's that's a consideration No matter what we do if we're one of the I think you'd mentioned it about potentially making a connection over towards McDonald's and bringing that road All the way along, you know, so that means we have more traffic along there We have more which makes sense and that would help in some of that through traffic It's not for you it's for She knows look at that Um, I think I think the redesign just just getting it out of my head is the traffic flow is huge And it's not just in the center. It's it's the surrounding and it's it's the getting I think to Paula's point If we have traffic going around we can't just assume that we're doing it on that end We also have to accommodate the CVS site. Otherwise, we're gonna have a huge problem Especially if we ever get to point of having a building F in So that was my about commissioners. I mean, you guys have been silent so far. I'm sure you're not So I'm one of the point-to-point guys that goes to Hanna Ferds. I like Paul's idea Because you get more green a bigger green space if you can if you combine the green spaces and you keep a more smooth traffic pattern Understand your concern about the walkability to other buildings, but they have their own little parking spot behind them, too You know, so people are going to those Buildings they might naturally start I would be happy with anything but my my comment is that I think Keep the smooth traffic flow through there and combine the green spaces into one larger But that is the goal is to combine and have one large functional green space area Think I ain't got a second ball talking about doing with the building where past Right now my intent for that I Okay, but the intent would be that that I want to keep the market there I want to keep Brooks Brothers there and the rest of it is open for Interpretation and I'm thinking entertainment some entertainment use I've been looking at the upscale bowling having Claude Lane's Restaurant component to it a Game room because that's where the money is made at the bowling alley is really in the game Virtual reality room technology is getting very all the time is getting better Let's keep it at the table for a couple minutes. I want to give anybody up here a chance to chime in Mr. Mangan I Like the plan pretty much as designed that the one thing that concerns me is the the curve You know having seen the change in front of Essex High School personally I don't think what it changed to works as well or is not even as safe as what it was I know the intention was to change it to make it safer But that s-curve that makes it people are paying so much attention to the curves that I think it's easy to miss stepping out off the off the road So that's a much more tight distance. I think then this would be so it's possible This wouldn't be have that issue, but I'm worried about bigger trees or bushes or whatever that could block that view I do like the ice rink where it's proposed because if if done, right looking at the picture of this It's just you know the oval ice rink, but if it was like a mini Rockefeller Center type thing, you know when people drive through Yeah Yeah Yeah, so you're gonna catch the attention of people passing by and that may encourage them maybe not coming back that time But maybe another time whereas if you were to hide it out back or something It would just get lost and nobody's gonna go back there and plus as you mentioned there's a lot of potential in the summer to do Something else Yeah David any thoughts No comments on the specificity of this specific plan, I mean I'm good with it You know we've had so many years of Empty buildings that I'm in full support of doing whatever we can to make this more walkable and more of a destination So I think you know we ought to be supportive of An irritative process that allows Peter to take some chances and do some things and see how they work I mean as long as we're not Impacting public safety, you know, this has got to stop being a graveyard of empty stores and start becoming a place that people Want to hang out at you know, I go to Mad Taco when it's it's not a pleasant place to sit out on the Picnic tables. It's not inviting. I want to I want a place where I can go and hang out and Have it be welcoming. So I I applaud you for taking some chances Josh I Degree that Incrementalism is probably going to be the way to do it here. Try something see if it works Definitely the Ned school of thought that I think the curve in the road is the whole thing to connect the buildings in the meantime At the very least as an experiment too. I like the idea of having it all in one spot All the pedestrian traffic and yeah, this should be experimental to see if we can get something going there So I miss Ned's comment, obviously, but I would have liked to have heard But I really don't have a problem with it like it did it do a lot of what Dave said Ned I Well, I think on the traffic issue You know the balance is to be able to get the traffic to flow through without people Cutting every which way up in the corners and all because if it's too bad They're going to try to cut through all the corners for shortcuts So so I think it's a tricky balance that you know, they they have to solve or to get to you know at the same time they've got to come up with a a mix of people and Stores and all and shops to make it viable and that's probably in this Day and age in this economy that that's the real challenge I think you know we can landscape it and move it and and all but I think you know the challenge that is there for you you know to come up with Redoing the architecture along the service road because that's exactly the back of those Buildings now and you know, that's going to be sort of an entryway. You know, that's going to have to be more inviting I Think it's it, you know, probably a great place to have public get-togethers, but I have one Negative What no cracker? Negative was that two weeks ago after our meeting I went home to my wife said hey you want to go up Food trucks we can go get something to eat because she doesn't really like to cook or anything That's covets are no way affiliated with the planning commission However We went up there and Tom was there and the noise out of the speakers were playing music was absolutely unbearable I'm not even going to question the type of music But it was too loud and I think you have to remember That once you get to 80 decibels, especially with little kids you're starting to hurt their ears Totally Yeah, that was half the volume or less right now Yeah, I mean either different music or something because that that's just people there with little little kids and you know They'll all be Because I went up after the last meeting yeah, we had because John said he heard something So I wanted to just scope that out and I took the The sir over and I didn't hear anything. I went really slow and then I then I you know, I continue very It was good. So that was like at about quarter of a So sorry for jumping off the side From my comments, I'd like to say that right now we have you have like three separate Areas the buildings aren't tied together. I like the concept of tying them in because you go to building B Or you go to Hanna Ferds and maybe building a Or you go to building C and maybe the movie theater So you have three separate destinations currently and they're not tied together. It's it's not it's not I'm going to go over the mall and wander around. You just it's not built for that So I like the idea the concept of trying to tie them together so that it makes it easy and and logical to go From one to the other without a problem. I do think you need to accommodate the direct traffic to Hanna for independent of the need I believe that there need to be a logical and easy flow to Hanna Ferds other than through the center of this area because Face it Hanna Ferds Gets a lot of people just stopping to get groceries. They're not there to go to parties and they're not there to wander around Go shopping. They're there to get the groceries So let's accommodate that as well, and that's not detract from you know The the Experience of the folks that are there wandering through with the people that are bombing through trying to you know Just cut back and forth And like let's I think just keeping that as a part of the element and that to me means we we utilize that back road as Much as we utilize the primary road in When you say the back road you mean behind the ones that are behind A and B in Hanna Ferds right now That goes over it currently ends in a cul-de-sac, you know by Hanna Ferds. It's their truck traffic place primarily but Give a direct loop around I mean let's join up with the Hanna Ferds on the other side if they're in agreement with I mean all this but So that's that's sort of I like conceptually the idea, but I think we've got to think about the overall flow Not just in that space But the whole parcel and if we're gonna restrict the traffic there Let's give some of the other traffic opportunities outside of that and maybe even don't allow traffic through there that's a radical thing because People are creatures of habit and there's a lot of traffic going through there right now So no nobody's gonna want to be in that that versus village green I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to discourage Hanna Ferds traffic They have a light that basically you know you think about most shopping areas you Go in and you go out in the same direction and for a lot of people if you made it slow enough and you made Painful enough to kind of go through then people would just go out the other way So, you know remember you do have a very good access in and out of Hanna Ferds But it's getting people to go there. It's it's like anything else like we all drive we like if you're traveling on 117 We all know this construction there when we all know there's ways around it And so if you're heading that way you You go another way So one of the things we might want to consider is Incorporating into this is potential discussions with neighboring landowners and looking at the completion of Carmichael Which is a major thoroughfare that would bring you around and would be in traffic from that CVS site around To the other side of Hanna Ferds and maybe give a much better direct flow But that involves another landowner and another another situation, but that road's already semi-roughed in And it might allow to leave that the road behind A and B of primarily a service road only so I thought Darren or Dana first. She's It doesn't sound like The grid type thing is going to be financially feasible or is even necessarily popular with the planning commission. So the Planning Department has a plan B, which is the the cracker barrel overlay district Everything has to be a cracker barrel or a cracker barrel theme Oh It works If you weren't there Darren It's a CBD CBO D One other option for trying to maintain a little bit of that grid layout, but still keep this layout as it is as common well that comes down you could have a Corner here that cuts in front of building B Which would restrict some of the pedestrian, you know easy access the way it is now But I might you could still make a crossing there and that would allow your traffic to circulate through here a little more You know it would allow circulation through here, but it would definitely slow it down by having to stop at that corner in turn So that's another option and would also bring more traffic in here for better or for worse And that's just something to consider as you think about circulation and you know How you want to bring people into this space? and then another thought to consider in the very long term is You've got a lot of space taken up with parking if there's a way to consolidate that into some sort of more structured parking or Underground somehow which is obviously a high-cost thing But even a you know two or three-story Parking structure somewhere on this site would really open up a lot more space for either Green space or buildings and could serve the entire area not just your site And obviously there are financial and design barriers they go along with so that's something that could be explored So I want to be cognizant of time and I think this again conceptual discussion I don't want to shut you off, but I'm going to shut you off I don't want to but I feel like I Do you have feedback from the Commission at this point? Do you have enough feedback for tonight conceptual discussions? We don't say yay or nay. We give I think I mean you've heard I think we've heard some consistent things green space pedestrian flow traffic flow I think work with staff. Yeah, I mean this is this is We're still you know the ETC project is in play so we No matter We've got to find a way to have some synergy between them even if they're not going to completely link up there's got to be synergy between this because that that is an out A resultant of a lot of community effort and community work so It's there and it is what the community wants As of that time, I mean honestly this design might fit in well if it was to be re-vetted with the community process, but I also think You know correct me for re-jump in but I think we can make there's opportunity to make this much much more A synergistic approach and just elements of all that will work Paula one quick comment Looking at this plan. I suspect that What's going to happen is when people Want to exit Hannaford they will now take the one way to loop around and behind the behind the And come up by the theater. Yeah, I think that's likely So that would that in and of itself would cut down on some of the the traffic and the main loop So any final thoughts or comments from anyone on this as you know This is a good open discussion, and I'm hoping that you've yes, sir. Why the one way on the back. Why not two way? You got the buildings to get And the next and the wetlands are behind I mean you could make the road wider But as you come between the theater and buildings because you know people coming out to Cirque Highway Are going to be cutting Instead of going behind the theater, they're going to be taking That road to the left and then cutting through all that to go to Hannaford's You know what I'm saying? Yeah I mean they might be coming so they might be coming out Out of Hannaford's to go back behind the theater to go back out for coming in But coming in they're going to be going and I think we that they might actually start Using the exit on 15 and swinging around I think this is Hannaford that way. Yeah, and this is coming up to Cirque Highway, which a lot of But let's let's let's not engineer it tonight. Yeah Um, I think I think traffic is an item and and we've commented I think most people have commented that direct direct traffic to Hannaford Needs to be accommodated potentially outside of the you know direct throughput or through way through the redesign If at all possible So so you asked for final thought my you know just final two senses, you know One of the consistent comments we've heard about the town center is the lack of green space and walkability And one of the consistent comments I've heard through the etc process And the visioning is looking for more green space and walkability So I mean we've got good examples of that, you know, church street is a prime example of a very You know a decision to make made back in the 70s to shut down the street Make it walkable And you can see Kind of what's happened there. So I mean I would applaud the the vision of Kind of going through that iterative process of adding more green space Taking experimenting bringing in some walkability and seeing the traffic will figure itself out people People will figure out where to park and and how to go without that always works itself out I'd almost like to see based on this. I'd almost like to see the the path from seed over to to a and b Have not not have a through way there Just stop no no absolutely no through road. That's my last thought. It's just stop block traffic through there Because nobody's going to want to sit next to the amount of traffic that's going there through through there today In that green space Well then you because then we then would give it in petro in petros to You know bring it up on commonwealth clean that up or redirect on to Carmichael Or a redirector all the way around to the next exit, you know, it would be changing changing traffic flow. Okay Right, we're not engineering thing. We're going to wrap this up final comments anybody from Staff okay, we're good for this. Thank you very much for this presentation. I like uh, this was it very interesting Um Next item on the agenda. It's not opening Come on who's got the agenda 12th corporate drive. This is the olirium berk amendment plan amendment public hearing proposal to construct a 9300 square foot commercial building to accommodate technical school and five self-storage buildings David so as the applicants know I do own a self-storage facility So if they want me to go to codies now, I would be happy to leave I mean recuse myself Probably So for the record the uh, David offered to Precuse himself and there's no need from the applicant. No money on the commission thoughts. Okay, you're not allowed to leave Um, darren who's presenting on this? Okay, please do So as we discussed at the beginning of the meeting, this is an amendment to a previous to approved site plan for march Which was a very similar design So to give some regional context, uh, this is the area ala martin drive Comes down here. This is corporate drive. So this is smack dab in the middle Of that development So then In the previous plan, uh, the commercial building was smaller in footprint and there was more space for the self-storage units in the rear Um, the applicants have just proposed Increasing the size of the what was a commercial building now will be a school And adding a little more parking to accommodate that use and thereby shrinking the footprint of the self-storage area But actually with a few more units. They're just smaller units Um, there were a few changes to storm water design. Uh, that were actually as a result of the last approval and An earlier version of the plan had one extra street tree along the frontage, but Our tree warden has said we actually want to maintain a certain amount of space between larger trees. So we had them Reduce it a little bit if there's still plenty of trees. Um, So they won't grow into each other and cause problems in the future Otherwise, um pretty straightforward No concerns, okay Is the setback the same? Setback from corporate drive, is that the setback said the Developable area so to speak the Building envelope if you want to call it that is exactly the same So who's presenting on this? So we own the the building at at one corporate originally occupied a third of that and we had at least two-thirds of it to A bell cake bell cake is an alternative school Um, if you want to know a little bit more about bellcate if you look at bellcate.com They got a great website and give a very good explanation of some of the services that they provide to the community so So bellcate has been a very good tenant and bellcate approached us Four or five six years ago and said hey, we we like this location We'd like the whole building you mind if you move so so One thing led to another and and we bought another lot from hector leclerc a lot 13 And we we built our current office on 13 and and we had extra space. We put many storage in the back so We we had originally gone through with hector and as darin said approved a very similar plan And hector for a number of reasons decided that he wasn't going to go ahead Originally he was going to move from his building that's um, you know behind the vet on the corner He was going to move into into this building and he pretty much decided hector's like 82 now and said ah You know, he didn't he didn't need to hassle, you know, he was good where he was So so he told us that let's finish the permitting with a town What we won't go ahead with the state meanwhile bellcate Shows up one day and knocks on a door and says hey How would you guys mind moving again? We'd like to take this building that you're in we like this building And it was like no No when i'm moving again But one thing led to another and and we got into a discussion about well, you know, maybe we could We could build you another building on this slot. So bellcate besides being at one corporate um leases a number of other buildings in essence The primary building that they lease is the old temple furniture building or whether or not ballet school was And at that location them they they have their music program They have the art program and they have some physical education They're in a couple other, you know minor things and so Obviously there's a lot of transportation back and forth from one building to the other So they like to they like to consolidate and they thought that you know This would be a good location because they could just walk down the street And and get to this building so we hired an architect and we worked with bellcate and the architect to decide What the space needed to look like and and this is what we have, you know as a result So basically we have a music room. We have an art room. We have a large General purpose room that they can do recreational activities that also serve as a Meeting place. It has not really a commercial kitchen, but a kitchen similar like you might find You know in a church, you know, kind of like a community kitchen with as regular refrigerators and regular but they can come in and You know once a month they usually have you know potluck so they have all the parents and so you know, they're viewing this as a A very nice expansion of their current facility they have at one corporate so We've basically got to the point now where it looks like the financing is going to work You know for what they're they need to be able to pay on rent and what we need to be able to get To build the building not to make it work again You know, we're looking at doing more mini storage on the back because the the building alone And the rent that bellcate can afford to pay isn't enough To finance the whole project and make it work But when we add the mini storage and come in Then it appears to be a good project for Both so we've read the staff Report. We don't really have any comments on it. We're fine with the conditions And and reports as written cool Commissioners Uh, it's questions Can you just um Tell me how the traffic is going to flow through the site to the back to the storage units Yes, there's a there's a gate right here You know a gate what you'll come up You'll you'll come in through next to the building you come to the gate as a keypad there You know the gate the gate where tracks Alongside the back of the mini storage buildings here And then then you you come in and circulate through the mini storage and as you go back out The gate will close after about 40 seconds when you go back out you pull up to the gate you can either Type your access code back in the keypad or if you get within three or four feet of the gate The gate senses that your car is there and the gate will automatically open and go back The police chief I think had a comment about I guess in some places people have gotten trapped inside and couldn't get out But the gate actually has a lever that you can pull and it disconnects it from the the drive unit and you actually open it by hand So my only observation was you know the the traffic flowing through the parking lot of the school into the storage I know that the it says trips to the storage units are one of the lowest traffic generators there are You guys taught me that but You know trucks moving trucks and people coming through that that school parking lot just something to be The parking is kind of an abundance I think generally they're going to be in that side parking lot or the ones on the side are going to be teachers that Are parked and they're not moving for the day A lot of a lot of their curriculum With your kids is walking so they really like the fact we can't expand at one corporate or we would So they like the fact that this is a little walk down the street because they're always walking this You know this path anyway In the primaries of the school are basically seven to three thirty So they're basically gone by the time the pmp comes and again on saturday and sundays when you would tend to see Most of the mini storage traffic You know the building's empty. There's nobody there Our current location diagonally across at 13 corporate they go through our parking lot and there's so little traffic it never bothers us I'll agree. That's not the ideal situation, but we just don't have the space to give them a separate land And where paul said the mini storage, you know, we have to do the mini storage Keep in mind that it was approved at 15,000. We're reducing the mini storage So I take a motion to open the public hearing I move we open the public Pulled by josh seconded by shoo all those in favor I motion carries six zero seven zero Seven six six the whole commission You don't have to count me no one okay, um comments. Yes, sir. Yeah, zane scott 20 maple on drive He's right off the back corner here Right there Okay So the only thing the only concern Which I read the staff report and one of the big things that I really appreciated that I talked to paul that Even though the the police recommended that put lights in the storage Whereas hector was going to have lights and paul Told me that you're not going to have any lights. So that's that's a plus But we have the lights in the mini storage because they're on a motion effect It doesn't show that on the site plan There's several plans But what what they actually asked for was lights on the back side of the buildings and paul said no, we weren't going to add lights so So we do have So here the mini storage buildings go back so there's you know say that's so there's lights on like on the inside Yeah, so those are ones that I was telling you before the 26 watt leds that are you know Ten foot high and so they're only triggered and there's lights on the end here But they're only triggered You know by the motion right so somebody obviously no traffic through there the lights aren't going to be correct And it's 100 foot buffer force and buffer between that and right and you know and Talk we have talked before about the colors of the buildings in this area that I know there's no regulations of what Color that you can have your buildings but I know that The last time that we're here when hector was doing that that The board recommended that we go or don't Whereas 14 corporate is red 42 l martin is green. I can't see 42 l martin 14 corporate it's like a beacon And I'm sure anybody that goes down corporate knows where the red building is It's definitely bright We used to we used to be the red building until yeah, we do guys aren't red. I mean you guys are you're you're Way different We've said that before too The way different And then the hours of construction I just want to confirm again of Monday through friday and saturday or no sundays. I want to know what the hours of any construction Some contractors or anything like that Yeah, because we've had issues before on 14 where they were working there Seven o'clock on a saturday night It's the act to 50 hours here seven to six Monday through friday eight to five saturday no sundays no holidays That's what we go with, you know, and I know that 14 corporate We're way over those hours. Okay, so those are my concerns. I have no objection of this project at all I really encourage that if i'm going to have something in the back of my property. I want self storage Not Not a Factory facility This is probably the best thing that could happen in that area Okay, that's the only comments I have. Thank you Um, just for you guys, I don't remember what what color scheme you used on the existing storage What's happened? What's the color scheme you have in your existing storage? It's the same we tried to match a building as much as we could so it's tan Tan buildings with barn red doors You see more of in the color of the red is the you know, kind of the burgundy red that the building is So it looks more if there's more of that color Then there is the tan but the buildings are tan and and the we're using the same manufacturer We have the same colors for these any storage units What do you think of those colors? They're a lot better than that right bright red Sorry No objection Easy um Any additional questions or comments? I'll take a motion to close the public hearing move we close the public second Move by ned seconded by john all those in favor. I pose motion carries seven zero Public hearing is closed um Seems to be one of those rare applications where we really have No contestation with the staff report as written if i'm remembering what paul said I did realize I do have a couple of corrections to the staff report but nothing substantial um What are they one is that line 118? which is Page three permanent use is it should say technical vocational schools are permitted non offices. Okay um and page seven Line 251 should say two red maples because they've taken one out um, and then lines 257 to 262 can be Struck because it's talking about the distance between trees. So it doesn't need to be in there. Okay So so with those corrections Anybody second a motion if I made one to accept the staff report as written and as amended by darin Yeah, okay moved by myself seconded by tom any additional discussion All those in favor I opposed motion carries seven zero All right cruising right along as we slowly open the next thing we have on here has minutes Back to here trying to work through this is So we have minutes of 712 Do we have any corrections that anyone wants to offer to the minutes any point in the minutes of 712? Okay, we have a motion to approve second seconded moved by david seconded by tom No corrections offered all those in favor of the minutes has moved. I I posed minutes carry seven zero other business So your pc file folders Have just the cover sheet of just as a fyi for a wireless pole going in A new telephone pole going on with Cell cell equipment on it if you guys want to read it We have it and happy to share along with you or we can scan it if you're interested It it was a pole. Um, that's located near royal park Not in the town right away That's just a fyi And I guess you did have some other materials in your packet that we're relating to the meeting tonight. So I'm there And then my other piece of information is 73 jericho road, which is the chase subdivision was approved and the mylar was recorded And um when it came into you our paper copy just showed the little boxes that said footprint a lot So what has in the mylar has been recorded? I'm looking to ask you to amend So that the chair can re-sign it units three and four and seven and eight Or a little bit larger. They weren't uniformed with all the others And so three and four went from 1270 square feet to 1345 square feet And seven and eight went from one six one thousand six hundred sixty five to one thousand nine hundred ten Um minor change, but because it does a very minor change, but because it does require the pc um Signing the mylar. I would just request a motion that that would prove the change to the mylar It's more of the corrective mylar to what's been recorded To the last approval So it might be good to have a discussion in general here. So so what's happening with tom's project is Is the way the financing is set up and the way the closings are is that when he closes on a unit the The attorneys are asking that we file a mylar With each closing that shows the actual as built size and location of each footprint And that's something that we regularly do and in other towns when we have projects you You come up with the plat you show the actual location of it You actually give a tie to it so that it could be recreated, you know by a survey if you needed to and then that gets filed in the land records now in most of the towns It doesn't require that It go back to the planning commissioner of the dr. B Whichever they have and they sign it so the lawyers are fine without having the signature block because they know It's been approved. They just they just want to record the actual location in the actual dimensions Of the building and that's that's what's happening here. The first two buildings are built We We prepared a plat that showed the actual location dimension those two buildings And and this is something that's going to happen two three four more times As this project, you know builds out depending on you know, how many units he builds at one time Obviously if we can do four or five or six in one fell swoop We we try to do that so maybe the motion should be that that you acknowledge That Footprint lots will change without a signature. Well, my question was do we need I mean Is that our practice to sign have a signature on the mylar if that's the case the motion could potentially be Just to have the chair sign the the mylar is one that when they come in that would be great because it does the the new um legal document I can't think of what it's called right at the moment references your last approval Which you guys signed and it's recorded in land records. So I think there should be Some mechanism that still ties to the last approval where chair can change as these come So just a question just because i'm it's late and i'm getting dense. So we approved The chase project So let's just take the the so the square footage has changed on the buildings, but we didn't The approval didn't State each what each square footage was okay, so there's nothing in the approval That's changing. It's just a memorialization of the as built pretty much which is built within the approval Well, it's built within the approval But the first mylar recorded does show certain dimensions on it and so those dimensions change So that's the only thing that's tripping me up. Well the mylar that you approved wasn't Dimension per se it showed the building envelope showed where they're gonna go But they're not tied to anything because well that's sort of where my my heads at you do a 12 lot subdivision with building envelopes You don't go back and need any further tweaking when you put a house on it within the envelope We do here because the bank is requiring the lawyers are saying hey, you know, they're buying a footprint lot And I want to know You know when they buy a regular lot, you know what you're buying right? But so when they buy the footprint lots the lawyers say no, I want to know exactly what my client is buying So we We actually go out and survey it we dimension it and we tie it back to the property line So you could actually recreate it Your your submission of a new mylar is independent of anything we're saying you're having to do it So my question is back to Sharon. I mean the mylar should be signed In my thinking. I mean from the town staff should we have it so so But for this Document and I think it's an irrevocable offer of debt an amended irrevocable offer of dedication That references a pc approval That that and we do have a mylar that does have some dimensions on it, but So, I mean that's what I'm just thinking if if they're going to have to submit a new mylar I think having a mylar that doesn't have continuity back to the others The signature of the chair I think is that provides that continuity or they can put a no I think a no as they come into each time without us having to do this each time That just allows you to sign it. Well, that's what I'm that's where I was learning leaning towards is that we're recognizing that this development Is requiring a new mylar with each Sale with each yes, whatever whatever. So they're like going to be 10 mylars in the land records. No, well Yes, it could be it just depends You know if you if if sales are slow and he builds a duplex at a time then There'll be one for each new duplex in this case. He built, you know, four units at a time So that that is just a complete nightmare for title searching just but I agree But that's that's what the attorneys required now I mean you go to south burlington and some of those places and and my god is the 60 mylars filed for For one development. Now again, if we didn't have consent, this is something that we could be doing administratively Yeah, so we're no just with sharing it's just that we just need a mechanism to do it. That's all But it's your question. Did you get an answer to your question? Does it need to be signed? I think that's the root thing and it's well, I would say it does only because of this New irrevocable offer that has come in and has tied in a mylar that you've already signed for this specific subdivision Which has different dimensions than what a new one is being So another subdivision where they're doing this process of multiple mylars that those wouldn't come back to us Is that correct? I'm sorry If there's another subdivision and they had to file a bunch of mylars for that We wouldn't have to go through this I mean this is I've never come across this. This is a this is a banking thing and I don't think they need to be science he might might take on it is you have a planning commission approval With a condition to file a mylar the mylar contains essentially building envelopes We're done They're not tweaking the site plan all they're doing is memorializing the actual as built on the footprint lot But that we've already approved a mylar in in conditions for footprint lots If they if they want to file anybody can file anything in the land records pay your 10 bucks It's in so I mean that I don't think requires any action from this body So the mylar that's recording does show some other Sight to what each unit will be and they're all uniformly the same So the dimensions that the as built dimensions are different than from the mylar that was originally So we have a change And it's it's very minor So I mean for simplicity If we did a motion to just allow the chair to sign them as they come in yeah Yeah, I don't think you should sign anything that you haven't reviewed as the board. That's my personal opinion And and the lawyers aren't asking that you sign right They're just so then I would just probably If you guys are fine with that I would Have them change their irrevocable offer. So it's not pinning it back to that approval if if If there's an opinion that we don't that it doesn't need to be signed then let's not sign it I mean, that's sort of what you're saying. That's all saying and that's Honestly, I didn't get a legal opinion because I didn't I figured just save money and sign the mylar I didn't realize that this could be 10 more times That part of uh, so And the way it's filed in the land record someone will be able to see that change Well, if there's a notation on the plan that Does it usually we have a regulation that says this supersedes mylar Yes I don't know But it'll be obvious when you look at mylar is that it's a record it's a record drawing It's a record drawing of where that unit the dimensions that unit was built to and exactly where it is on the property So it doesn't sound like we really have an issue to deal with Reality is in most parts of the world as built to go on electronically. You don't see my lives or anything So, you know, we're sitting here in the dark ages sort of And that's how it's all transmitted to the lord is we you know, they all get pds of everything So we are we are we good with not requiring a signature on the mylar the subsequent submissions I think we ought to sted this off and the next one if we have a something like this We ought to just put a condition in there that authorizes staff to Do whatever you need to do so that you don't have to deal with us Because obviously tom still got to come in and pull building permits He's got to show to share on that's you know the dimensions that's in the right spot, you know, etc, etc Yeah Sounds like we're good. Good. That's all I have Anything. Oh google docs Let's talk about that for a few minutes. This is the first week with using them first meeting with using them I just wanted to sort of Review I guess the expectations I was a a little surprised based on, you know, any other times I've used them that it didn't take a login So it didn't identify me as an individual Um accessing those documents so that immediately raised the flag to me of all the security we've been talking about Um, I know we couldn't edit edit them, but it still Was a little Wiggly I don't know exactly how she shared it. It could have been one of two ways She could have shared it with a private link So the only way anybody could actually see them as if they had the url. Yep, but that's That's just a url. We could forward it. Yeah, um That's one way. Um, I do not know if you can share To an email account that is not a gmail account. Do you know that darin? So we can only if we want to share and limit it to a specific identity you have to have a gmail account set up So one of the issue one of the solutions is for everybody to set up a gmail account We can share directly to your gmail account rather than with the link. Yep The reason I was wondering about I mean it I can get to it the concept work I could get to him from work. I didn't I didn't download them a little awkward I might download them next time so I can flip through them faster Slow download but I do that from work. Yeah, it was a lot slower than the ftp If I did download them Yeah, and one other issue we've identified is that the line numbers don't appear on the staff reports Are any of the documents because google docs doesn't support that it does if you download it to your computer Okay, I was gonna say I have that So that's one thing we recommend downloading instead of using So I'm just wondering if the next step would be to set up, you know gmail accounts um If we wanted to do that and you know just come up come up with a greener pod standard for the name To use that's dedicated for this. Yeah, you know Whatever doesn't matter to me. So how did it work? I mean Everybody everybody got to it. Everybody works. Yeah, we're three copies of the staff report That's I think a different issue Yeah Well, let's why there were three copies of the staff report that ended up on there But we'll frame looking let's let's not make any changes to the workflow for another couple cycles Let's just run with it as it is now um And and use it and see what Else might be a question mark and then Maybe tweak it after that So, you know another another month or so and just just play with it and see what it works I think they were they all read only files. Yeah, so I've got to figure Figure out a different way to Be able to copy it to if you have an email account or a google drive account you can copy it to your own Account and play with it there Modified there. I'll have to play that some more. I downloaded the whole folder and when I made changes today I don't see them tonight. Yeah, that was that was my issue But it was a light enough night that that wasn't really an issue, but I had that same Putting it into my folder and then changing that's always how you and I write the yeah, fine And you couldn't do it I couldn't do it I didn't spend too much time on it because I saw it wasn't a big night So I said this probably won't be too much of an issue But I was having trouble with that thing. So I think those things like that you we bring those up I don't need to think we need to resolve them right now, but definitely identify them and make the workflow better Um, but you're not going to get it on from one try You're going to you need to use it a few times before we know what really is broken and where we're just being stupid You know and we need to get used to it Um Because that happens a lot Now The ftp isn't available anymore, right because wasn't it could be brought it could be okay I know it was uh Worked out well for it to not yeah, I mean, I think this is reasonable I mean, it's not a big deal and setting of a gmail account hell. We could heck We could have the staff set up the gmail accounts So you have a consistent naming convention and a consistent format and then just share them out to us from there um, but again My my my thinking based on Lots of workflow changes and so forth is let it let it ride for a few times for a month or so and see what really is broken Um, it may just be first pass. It may So If we get to the point if we get to the point where we want to set up accounts Whenever I'd be happy to help Jennifer or you or whoever come in one day and just do it all once I think we need to speak to it about that But not necessarily not necessarily um, town accounts Okay, oh normally. Yeah, I mean gmail accounts. Okay. Yeah, personal gmail accounts. Yeah, perfect. Great. Thank you I'll let you know that motion I move we turn By tom second by shoe All those in favor