 Well, hi everybody, welcome to Brain Club. I'm Mel Hauser, I use Shiba pronouns and I am Executive Director of All Brains Belong for One. Well, let me share screen and I'll get us oriented. All right, so tonight we're kicking off our new monthly theme on the double empathy problem. Before I tell you what that is, just some by way of introduction, our community agreement and kind of description of what this program is all about. So I know we have a couple of new folks here. So Brain Club is our very intentionally created educational space for the collective ABB community to educate about neurodiversity and various topics related to inclusive community. Just a disclaimer, this is for education purposes only. This is not a support group and this is not for medical or mental health advice. All forms of participation are okay here at Brain Club. As many of you have figured out, you can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we don't expect anything of you. We certainly don't need you to look at the camera or sit still or anything, so feel free to move and fidget and stim and eat and all the things. And everyone is welcome at Brain Club. And all forms of communication are welcome. So you can unmute and use mouth words, you can type in the chat box. There will be a period of tonight's Brain Club with a prerecorded video. So especially that's the only time of Brain Club that we'd like you to use the chat box while watching the video as opposed to unmuting and using mouth words during that time. But we'll have plenty of time for all kinds of communication. And in addition to affirming all aspects of identity, we're gonna be talking a lot tonight about access needs and what those are, anything that anyone needs for full and meaningful participation. So it's really important to us that we respect and protect your access needs and the group's collective access needs. So to that end, direct messaging is enabled. So if you're uncomfortable for any reason, if you could send a private message to Lizzie, our Education Programs Coordinator, Lizzie, you're on to like Wave and show people who you are. Hi, Lizzie. Okay, great. So Lizzie's gonna be able to see a direct message a lot sooner than I am. So, and we're happy to address what needs addressing. Speaking of access needs, it's really important for us to cue safety for a broad range of participants. So we all have different brains with different needs. And so for a broad range of communication related access needs, many people have access needs for space, for time, for processing, for reflecting on what's been said. And because the idea being that moving beyond like taking turns talking or facilitating a deeper community connection will intermittently pause to give space. Or processing and to give space for folks who want to join the conversation to be able to do so. Okay, last bit of access, closed captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on what version of Zoom you have, you might see the live transcript closed captioning icon. And if not, look for the more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles. You can also choose hide subtitles if you wanna turn them off. Okay, that's my visual support of opening up the chat box window. And that's that little speech bubble icon that now I have it in front of me in case anybody's using it. All right, so as I said, we're kicking off our new monthly theme of neurodiversity and the double empathy problem. We'll be talking about, and which essentially is about perspective taking. So we're gonna be talking about perspective taking in relationships, perspective taking in the clinician patient relationship in a couple of weeks on the 19th. We have a special brain club event a couple of times a year. We do like during brain club instead of our usually scheduled program we do like a bigger deal. And this is gonna be our everything connected to everything webinar, improving the healthcare of autistic and ADHD adults AKA the all the things project. We're gonna be doing a deep dive, give a tour of the resource and introduce folks to how to use it. And finishing up the month about the double empathy problem and work. So before I like define the double empathy problem what's neurodiversity? So the concept being that we all have different brains we all have different brains that do things differently that take in information through our senses, process, learn, think, communicate, experience the world differently. We all have unique patterns of strengths and challenges which is why something called universal design offering everything you do in multiple flexible different ways and giving people freedom and choice to pick what works best for them. That is best practice. Short of that, it's about designing accommodations and supports to meet people's needs. Unfortunately in 2023, universal design is not present in most scenarios. And I'm sorry that somehow that text turned black. I feel the need to fix that from an accessibility standpoint. Okay, there we go. You know, any import slides from other slides that things get all changed. Anyway, so what we know is that at least one in five brains learns, thinks and or communicates differently than the so-called typical brain. I don't think there is such a thing as a typical brain because I just showed you neurodiversity. We all do the things differently but at least one in five people's brains work in such a way that significantly departs from the majority of brains or the type of brain that society most usually caters to. And so some of us have specific diagnostic labels, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, but many people do not. It's just that for those at least one in five people our needs are less likely to be met by the defaults of society and we may not know why. And the thing is, there is no one right way to think. There is no one right way to communicate. There is no one right way to experience the world. When my child was five, she said this. I told her that I was about to go do a neurocultural competency training for professionals. She knows what that term means because she's been around this her whole life. And I said, well, I tell the people, well, tell them there's no right way to be a person. Yes, that's my sweet little love. So all that being said, what is the double empathy problem? So the double empathy problem is a term coined by an autistic social scientist in the UK named Dr. Danian Milton. And what this comes from is repeatedly found in studies that autistic people communicate better with other autistic people. And non-autistic people communicate better with non-autistic people. And both groups fail in perspective taking. When there's a mismatch between worldview, a mismatch of communication style, that's where communication breakdowns occur. So it's not that there is one normal type of communication skill. And then there's like us autistic people. It's this bi-directional difficulty with perspective taking. And when we think about those defaults in society, I think society does send the message that there is a default communication and a default way of like seeing the world. And it's just not true. And what happens often from chronically, when someone's perspective is not taken into account and their access needs are not met, this is the whole square peg fit into the round hole. And what happens, we break the peg. And we see this in healthcare. We see this in schools. We see this in the workplace. We see this in so many places. And we're gonna play a video in just a minute. But first I wanna just mention that for the past year and a half or so, we have been operating what's called the Neuro Inclusive Employment Bright Spotting Program. This is for for Monters to be able to nominate employers in their community, who are creating workplaces for people with all types of brains to thrive. And we are collecting additional nominations for fall 2023. And Sarah, can you drop the link in the chat? So people can take a look if you've encountered such an employer. Because there are organizations out there who get it, who are stomping out those defaults and introducing elements of flexibility and queuing safety for a variety of nervous systems. And that's not everywhere. So David's gonna play a video. I think it's gonna run about 20 minutes or so. We'll have the chat running. If anyone wants to comment as we go with some clips from several different brain clubs from last year all related to the double empathy problem and communication and specifically communicating around access needs. So how this connects to access needs are that we all have access needs. Access needs are anything that is required to meaningfully participate in one's environment or community. And as I said, we all have them. This might be physical access needs, emotional communication, all different types of access needs. And so often we get the message that if we have needs, we are in some way needy and explicitly or implicitly, sometimes often people get the message that we shouldn't have needs, that it's selfish to have needs. Like that's not a thing, that's a myth. And that is really hard because when we think about full participation in our world and our lives, the social model of disability is about the barriers in the environment between the person and full participation. It's not about there being something wrong with the individual, it's about those barriers being placed. And so we want to have as few barriers to full participation as possible. And when we think about how this plays out in interpersonal relationships, I'm gonna throw in a little excerpt from a brain club we did in January called everyone flips their leg where there's things that make us stress that are gonna differ person to person and like context specific. Like if there's something in the physical environment like a loud sound, if I'm like well hydrated and well rested, I might not be as stressed as if I'm, you know, haven't done those things or have like a huge cognitive load or whatever. Like with this business of the zoom and the link and the whatever and all the switching between things. If a motorcycle drives by my house right now, I'm gonna flip my lid. Whereas like I might've been okay a couple hours ago. So when we get triggered when and borrowing from a model from Dr. Dan Siegel Dr. King of Brayson from the whole brain child upstairs brain and downstairs brain when downstairs brain gets triggered, we don't get to pick what triggers us. And sometimes we forget that we have interpersonal access needs, it's not just about sensory processing or like how we learn, it's about access needs in a relationship, what does it mean for downstairs brain to feel safe. And so when we think about, since we all have access needs often those access needs conflict with other people. And I might play this clip, I might just come back to it. Well, maybe it depends on if I can just unshare and reshare, very God, I gotta share this sound but it's not gonna work. Oh, we can invite all 12 of your brothers to stay with us. Of course we have the room. Wait, slow down. No one's brothers are staying here. No one is getting married. Wait, what? May I talk to you, please? Alone? No, whatever you have to say, you can say to both of us. Fine, you can't marry a man you just met. You can if it's true love. Anna, what do you know about true love? Well, more than you, all you know is how to shut people out. You asked for my blessing, but my answer is no. Now, excuse me. Your Majesty, if I may ease your... No, you may not, and I think you should go. The party is over, close the gates. Yes, Your Majesty. Elsa, no, no, wait, please give me my glove. Elsa, please, please, I can't live like this anymore. Then leave. Never do to you. Enough, Anna. No, why? Why do you shut me out? Why do you shut the world out? What are you so afraid of? I said, enough. Um, here we have a relationship with two people with access needs. One is looking to assert them by taking space. One has foot on the gas with an access need to communicate right here now. Boom, that didn't work out so well. I'm curious, anybody else ever experienced conflicting access needs and interpersonal interaction? Relationships are hard. Hi, Matthew, are you raising your hand to say, yes, I have conflicting access needs and interpersonal interactions, or did you want to say something? Yes, no, no, yes, yes, double yes, you know. Yes, conflicting access needs, but also trying to interpret those needs in a way where the other party makes sense and understand you too, as well, is just it goes both ways. And to understand that together is one way to actually, you know, wear the ideas and thoughts of, you know, addressing those access needs. Thank you. Totally, and especially when we have not, we're not in a culture where it is common for people to actually voice their access needs. Access needs are not implied because in fact, people are not mind readers. Recently, I was talking with some folks about friendships and how hard it is to make friends and that they're constantly worried about the way their friends are going to respond to them and like worried that they're not going to be able to, like, you know, that they're gonna be judged and that it's like, it's pretty stressful. So I'm wondering, I'm wondering how that resonates with others about worrying about the judgment in social interactions. For me in the family, the way that I return to regulation and the way that I bring my nervous system back into reading other people's attunement, reading other people's nervous system instead of being overwhelmed by my own, whatever it is going on. The way that the best way for me to do that is to get down on the ground. Again, this is me and this is experiments of years of knowing how to attune. For me, it's squatting down close. It's putting both my hands on the ground for a second, the floor. So I squat and I'm low. There's something about the proprioceptive work like I think because my glutes kick in so much, I'm like, oh, here's my body and because I get a deflection, I'm like, oh, here I am. This is my contained little nervous system. Putting my hands on the ground feels strong. I feel like, yep, I am strong. I am a strong person. I can do this. So I'm building from the sensory system back into regulation. And I've practiced it enough over the years that I can do it fairly quickly in my nervous system. Those cues kick in safety for my neuroception. And it's subconscious. It is something our brains are always doing all the time, scanning the environment, scanning the interrelationships, scanning the internal relationship, the internal environment for safety. And we are geared for it. So once we feel it, once we find it, it's what our system wants to go to. That homeostasis is where we want to be, a cellularly, right? Yes. So for my nervous system, it's that. It's getting low. It's getting grounded. It's softening my face, like actively saying, let your eyes soften. Don't create some expected emotion. So that like, that shame, fear, response might create this expected like, oh, I'm okay, right? Like everything's fine. Can you tell this isn't really a smile? Like, but it's what we do because it's what we've been socialized to do. So actively neutralizing, softening my face. And then like something about the environment for me usually helps find the horizon, look in a tree root, some sort of cue to me that's like, there's no saber-toothed tiger here. There's no gaping hole that's gonna suck you into the hot molten lava of the middle of the earth. This is solid ground. So you're describing that you begin with a bottom-up strategy. You get into your body and you ground yourself, whatever that means to you, you ground yourself. And then you have access to your cortex where you are cordically mediating your limbic response because now you have access to your cortex because you did that initial bottom-up, yet softening to take the edge off to like bring your cortex back online and then you go to that. I think a lot of people skip right to that or they try to skip right to that and they don't have access to their cortex and you can't skip it. You have to do something to access your cortex and there's an element of like when you're in the thick of it even if you're like already screaming and like actively flipping your lid, you don't have access to the impulse control to stop. You don't, you may not even be able to like metacognitively like zoom out and watch yourself. You just don't have access to that. So it's really just like it's happening. Get to the ground if that's how you ground like something in your body. Yep, yeah. Yeah, and it's experimental for a while. It's trial and error to figure out what your physical somatosensory system responds to. And then once that is kind of, once that's a cue of safety for your physical sensory being it grows, it gets stronger. And sometimes maybe it needs tweaking. Like, you know, when my knees can't squat anymore and hopefully not for another 20 years I'll have to figure something else out. Great, great. The other thing is that if someone knows that they are, their go-to self-reg plan is a top-down trying to use their cortex. One thing that I found helpful is to prepare ahead of time what I'm wanting my cortex to do. Yep. Because if I can like ideate and motor plan it ahead of time I can maybe access it as like automatic, like an automatic loop I can pull in as opposed to trying to use it in the moment. Because then it becomes not an a stop, you know, impulse control stop. It's like, don't like, like foot's on the gas already. Don't try to step on the brake of stop screaming at your kid. It's, I'm gonna go to my automatic loop. And so for me that is like the, like I said before the mantra of like the relationship, the relationship, the relationship is primary. Like whatever, like a thought I can try, even if I don't have full access to my cortex that I can try that, I mean it doesn't work maybe, but like it might work a lot better than like, I'm gonna talk myself out of how this is not, this is okay. Right, well, I mean, and this also gets to some of the course of like there's the, a number of amounts of different brains. You think, when we've talked about this, you think in specific word patterns always. Your directions are in go left at and to stop lights then. So your brain does everything in that language space. And I do not. I do pictures and I know which rock is at the driveway that I wanna drive into, not where it is on the street in words, ways. So I think that's also just a self-awareness piece of what works for your brain and language works for yours. I feel so seen right now. The language doesn't work great in my brain. So to start to do like an internal talk in the midst of feeling really dysregulated is just like, oh, that's really, that would be too much work. Yeah, yeah. And so it begins with self-awareness of like what actually calms you and maybe even developing an awareness of like your go-to patterns of how you negotiate life even when you're like generally regulated enough. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Which then, I mean, gives you that base of being able to have the space for your family to feel safe and heard and seen. Because I mean, the goal is acceptance and connection for all of us. And that requires me also having that grace and acceptance of like, yeah, I understand myself sometimes. So Luna and I have been discussing power lately because she's five and what's modeled for her like in video games or cartoons is like power over people. And like power over people feels gross to me as a PDA or like I don't want power over me and I don't want to have power over people because it's gross. So like we watch a lot of my little pony where like the messages are that the people seeking power over, they never prosper. It's the power of friendship, the power of connection, the power of co-regulation, which is like, you know, like a reciprocal power. Like it's just anyway. So like we've been talking about like just like the different kinds of power and where do we get power? Because I feel like the like transformation from like, you know, like the traumatic transformation toward narcissism, because like, I mean, you can start off as, you know, like, you know, you're like a little kid and everyone has power over you and you like seek out to have power over. Like you don't have power, you seek your power, you want to claim your power. And like if you only know about power over you go down that train, right? And like if you don't have connection, like, ah, anyway, like what do you think about this as a concept? Yeah, I think it really aligns too with the role of punishment in relationships and how power over that the main leverage that you get if you have power over somebody is both controlling them and punishing them. And I think that like manipulating their behavior towards your good. And if they aren't aligned with that then they deserve to be hurt for their transgression. And, you know, that's our world. Like we literally live in systems built on that. And for our kids, they're trying to make sense of what happens when something is transgressed. Like what do we do when a line is broken or like within the trust, like trust gets broken or connection gets severed and we make mistakes, basically. And so in a power over relationship what happens around mistakes, small mistakes are punished. And in a power with or a power like in a co-regulation relationship where any power doesn't even, the power is in the connection. Right, totally. And cause I feel like, I'm like, I'm even hearing language from my five year old, like a thing that comes out a lot when like I make a mistake and then she'll say something. Like, you know, so like she might like, you know and she'll be like, that's what you get for acts. And I'm like, where did you get? I like, I mean, there's like a lot of things she says and I'm like, damn it, that came from me. But like, I don't say that, that one doesn't come out. Maybe I think it or like maybe I don't know. I don't even know, like is it TV? Is it, I have no idea. I've no idea what like my husband or like, I have no idea like if somebody actually says that. But like, I think that it's just the narrative constructed from observations of the world. That's what you get for acts. As opposed to late, you know, like we have a pediatric occupational therapist on our board who I like would love for you to meet, Hannah Bloom who she talks a lot about the, the cycle of repair. And like, you know, so like, you know we're all gonna transgress, we're all gonna make mistakes but like it's the repair that closes that loop. And you know, like most of us grew up in a world where there was no repair, you know just like, you know, punish, punish, punish, you know, flip your lid, which is, you know normal to flip your lid, but like, you know, no repair. Yeah, absolutely. And the repair with yourself is what I see especially for my kids that they're externalizing like that's what you get for is what they say to themselves too. Like when they make a mistake then they're saying, well of course your grown up is gonna ignore you or you yell at you because that's what you get. You, you messed up. And this sense that they deserve punishment is really hard to repair because our world is reinforcing that. And so it's kind of like, that's the cosmic repair work is repairing that relationship with yourself where you have the capacity to say I'm a person who makes mistakes and I'm also a- Whoa, great, even begin. Right, good time. So there's so much of that. So connecting all those little threads to perspective taking. So there's this opportunity, right? Of like not only thinking through present day situations but like so many past interpersonal conflicts and all of it. And as Monique shares in the chat, there was no repair in my childhood, not even a recognition of my meltdowns, they were just ignored, right? And so like the, like whatever that says or whatever that said to little you, you probably constructed some kind of narrative around that. I think we all do. And it probably wasn't like a helpful one because that's what goes on, right? So when you're a little kid and something happens, especially if you have the kind of brain that derives safety from predictable systems we're constantly creating our own narratives. And unless, which is why I think it's so important for neurodivergent young children to learn about their brains as early as possible so that the narrative is like an accurate one because if you don't sweet little loves make up their own narratives which is almost always I'm broken, I'm defective. What's standing out for folks about any of the above or none of the above communication, perspective taking? Hi, this is Monique here. Hi everyone. I'm a retired counselor, grief and trauma counselor and what came up for me, that was wonderful. I loved all that stuff. That's my jam. What came up for me was one of my teachers is Pat Ogden and she would often say that trauma happens in relationships and that's where the repair also happens. Like, I think oftentimes for my, I'm autistic and I think oftentimes I very easily dust off like just walk away from relationships because it's easier, it hurts but it's easier. And so I've been learning in the last decade or two to actually repair relationships. I've been practicing and learning some new skills and some systems because boy I love systems. So I've been trying to figure out ways to repair that don't cause any more damage for me. And it's a skill, it's something that can be practiced and learned and it's frightening but it's worth it. Thank you for sharing that. I think that so many of us, especially if when we're in environments where our access needs are unmet, I think there's also this element of like depletion or I mean, it also just, you know being in neurodivergent burnout of like not having the capacity to do the work of repair where the like, all right, I'm done. I'm gonna leave this unsafe encounter, this unsafe relationship, it takes a lot of capacity and I think coming back to perspective taking and of course like safety comes first. So leaving situations that are unsafe may be the right move at any given time. But I think that when someone is dysregulated, no one is going to be able to perspective take when they don't themselves have access to their cortex. So, you know, though we began the conversation around autistic people and communication breakdowns with non-autistic people, I think some of the most intense interpersonal conflicts come from two dysregulated people of the same neuro type even who neither one of whom have access to their cortex. So question the chat or comment in the chat from Christina that feels challenging to change people's perspective on the power over because it's so embedded. How do we communicate this to others? It's a huge cognitive shift for people trying to explain that everyone is a person and has autonomy. I think it's embedded in the patriarchy that there are people who are excluded from the responsibility for regulation of their own nervous systems. This is not on gender lines. It's people that put themselves in positions of authority. How do we communicate this? You know, I think that I'm looking for a visual support to hold up to. Yeah, we usually quite a few brain clubs where we're talking about various aspects of this book Parenting for Social Justice, which is like one of the most, you know, profoundly helpful books I've ever read. And like, you know, and using language like to communicate what you just said, communicate about this to like kids. Because if you can communicate to kids about how, you know, if anyone does not have autonomy and access to resources and like, this is not a safe society. So it's a big picture conversation of zooming way out and recognizing what aspects of identity are privileged and what aspects of identity are oppressed and committing to the hard work of zooming out to dismantle those oppressive power systems that are not good for individuals and not good for society. That's what I would say about that. I'm wondering if anyone else has anything to say about what Christina named around thoughts around power and the how to talk about it, how to unlearn, relearn, dismantle what means dismantling M shares. I think kids are socialized into this hierarchical worldview from an early age in public school, which is all about power and taking away autonomy. Yeah, from early version kids, but like, I think from kids in general, thanks Sarah, thanks for posting that link. Mel, I just like, I kind of see this play out in like family systems too. I mean, I'm sure it does come from an early age and but it's like, I feel like in family structures, it can be like kind of sort of like communicated, not directly that, you know, when people need to like tiptoe around somebody else's nervous system, whether it be male, female or whatever. And I think this happens particularly in neurodivergent families because we have high sensory and like all kinds of different access needs. You know, there's like, I remember as a kid, when my dad came home was like, don't like, don't do anything to upset your dad because, you know, it's hard when they come home. It's like this kind of embedded training from when you're younger to be like, okay, the adults are in power. We need to like make sure that their nervous systems are okay. And it sort of just kind of like repeats itself. And we have a lot of responsibility as people to deconstruct those things within ourselves and within our family dynamics. And it's super challenging. It is super challenging. And I think that, you know, intergenerational trauma has all kinds of patterns like that and that whole like, you know, don't upset your father thing. Like, I mean, it's the fawning reaction, that involuntary automatic reaction to stay safe in a lot of instances. Amy. In this conversation, I was thinking about, I thought it was so beautiful to see you and Hannah like discover each other's brains and then be able to discover yourself within that. And I probably relate more to Hannah in terms of the way like I see in pictures. And, but it's been so helpful to have somebody like you who can use words and has this like conceptual understanding of what it means to unmask or what, you know, any health issues we're all facing, you know, as a patient of ABB. But then I was thinking about the power over and I was thinking about the relationship I have to myself of power overing myself in terms of like doing the socially appropriate thing, even when it didn't feel right. And really like basically heading to burnout of like just trying to push through to be like quote, unquote normal and how that relationship to myself of not powering over myself anymore, like really listening to myself and really watching the ways when I will turn away, you know, from myself and my needs to like mask or to make other people feel more comfortable. And I think that that's allowed me to see when people are trying to power over me and my relationship to that can change because I'm not gonna let like, I'm gonna share what my experience is instead of like hiding it and like breaking up with the, you know, walking away from the relationship I'm gonna try and stay and exist in that relationship. And I think for a lot of masked folks that for a lot of their life, you know, have two different relationships to the world, their internal relationship to themselves and then the external relationship. And I find that now that I'm not powering over myself as much, I get to live in the world as myself more. And I want to process that. The idea that part of learning about your brain and your access needs, trusting your intuition allows you to spend more time in your authentic world. How powerful. Thank you for sharing. I'd love to create space for anyone who's not had a chance to share. They're on mute or in the chat. It's coming up for you. I was just thinking about dad coming home and having to be sure not to do anything that would seem ragged. I remember my father coming home though and he would spend whole weekends with migraine headaches, which were and would come home in really bad shape for many of his days because he would spend his entire day at a place of work where his access needs were never met. And that's what he would come home from. And so I think the idea of just being aware of that was not necessarily deferring in a power situation but just being cognizant of just what a horrible day it often had. And you know, David, I think that reframing like that perspective shifting like that I think is very helpful to the individual who's doing the reframing. I think that, I mean, this concept of being able to shift your own thinking about a situation in a way that serves you. It's not always the case, but, you know, often when conflict is framed in the context of like, what's that person going through? Like the emotional experience for you can be dampened quite often. Thank you for sharing. I mean, that also, so David's comment also reminds me of and I think this is next week's spring club. Yeah, this is next week's spring club. We're gonna be talking about the double empathy problem perspective taking in healthcare between clinicians and patients. And I think that the video clip we're gonna play our panelists talk about that with the idea that, you know, when you can, you know, shift to the perspective of the healthcare system thwarting a clinician, the emotional impact of what happens for that patient and that experience that didn't go well is different a little bit with that layer of awareness, Sarah. I mean, what David just said really struck me is because I mean, I think a lot about my mom and about her generation and really growing up in a generation and prior generations where I get the sense that like nobody cared whether your access needs were met. And it wasn't like your employer didn't care, your parents didn't care. And it was just mostly like a culture. I mean, it strikes me as if it's like it is, I mean, the mentality strikes me as if we're just all just, we're all just trying to survive. And so you just need to buck up and, you know, everybody's sort of running around just in the survival trance, not really even thinking about access needs because, I mean, because we're just, because we're just trying, you know, people are just trying their hardest to get by. And it really, but it really is a survival trance. It's an entire physiology that's like, like I just, like that just says, I don't have any choices, I just have to do this. I don't have any choices, I just have to do this. I don't have any choices, I just have to do this. Shut up, buck up, shut up. You just, you don't have any choices, you just have to do this. That's the way it is. You just have to do this. That's how survival works. And there's a whole like, and there's a whole aspect of human functioning that isn't about, that doesn't, and vast realms of human functioning that don't work like that. That wouldn't have to work like that. That we're just really, that what all brains belong is, it seems to be about in what, you know, and maybe hopefully other parts of humanity is starting to discover is like, just trying to push the edges on too. It's like, hey, wait, wait, wait, let's just, let's rethink this. Do we really have to keep living in the survival trance? Or can we begin to think about what's actually good for human beings? How do human beings function optimally? Can we take a step back from the survival trance and what we've always done and how we've always done it? And begin to, and begin to, and begin to like just put our needs on the table and see if we can negotiate them so that like we can all show up with, like as ourselves and still maybe possibly be able to work it out so we get what we need. Holy cow. And that's a very different, and that's just a very different physiology and it's a very different mentality. I mean, it's not, it's, it can't do that in the survival reactivity place. You have to be in, you have to be a few, you have to be in that place, the words that more regulated that place where it's like, I have more access to my cortex than I have when I'm in survival mentality. And how are we doing that? All of us right here, we're doing that together. We're doing that in community. So it's that co-regulation experience of showing up as your authentic self, connecting with other humans who are also learning to show up as their authentic selves and like seeing what's possible. Because once you see it, it doesn't seem like something impossible anymore. Sarah, that was so well said. Can't wait to go back and watch the recording of that. That was awesome. Thank you. And I'll also just share one of the things that's standing out about what Sarah just said is when they said like, this is how it's always been. We just have to suck it up in survival. Like think about in, how does that play out in schools, in dysfunctional workplaces, in healthcare? Like there's a lot that is accepted that is really, really harmful, not just to some people, but like all people. And when folks are marginalized, multiply marginalized, those things that are bad for everyone are extra bad. And so when we think about inclusive community where everyone belongs and they can show up as their true selves, that benefits everyone, that benefits society. The way I've described power over, so the way I've talked about power over with Luna, and we recorded this last year, put it on Instagram of Luna and I talking about power. Lizzie, if you could find that, if it's easy to find and pop it, otherwise it's not that big a deal. But all right, cool. It was the idea that if someone has power over you, that means you don't have power over yourself. And she was like, ooh, like so that's autonomy as an access need. It's an access need and there's so much privilege associated with actually having autonomy over the major elements of your life. It's also that, I mean, it took me a long time to realize that power over isn't really the biggest, it isn't, it feels like the strongest power because it's the most visible kind of power. But like when you think, I mean, I think it's like there's that vulnerability, there's the power of vulnerability, which then the power of courage, really the power to inspire people, which like, I mean, you get 2000 years later, people are talking about sacrities and 2000 years later, they're talking about, you know, Christianity was 2000 years later. And it's, I mean, it's, and you see it all the time, you see like a baby and ends up, you'll hear the news stories about a baby ends up from, you know, sort of lost, drops into a well or something. And you've got his, the baby has no power at all and a zillion firefighters are competing with each other to try to figure out who can be the first one down the well to rescue the baby. And the entire world is riveted to the news to figure out if the baby's gonna get rescued. I mean, that's like the power of, there's this kind of power of inspiration versus, I mean, the baby has no power to compel anything. And it's just this vulnerability, what it evokes in vulnerable being, you know, gonna get help. And so there's something in that that is way, you know, whether, you know, Gandhi talked about so forth, there's something in that combination that in the right, it's not just vulnerability, it's vulnerability plus something that just really like drives human beings like just unites human beings faster than anything in a way that power to compel does not hold us together. It only holds us together for as long as somebody can hold a stick over our heads. And even then we're trying to undermine the person as soon as their back is turned. Anyway, I've taken us over time, but sorry about that. I have to take the camera. You don't need to apologize. And I think that isn't that so classic, right? Like, so, you know, a person arrives at this like, you know, really powerful level of understanding shares their ideas with the world, impact people around you. And what do we do? We say, I'm sorry. You don't need to apologize for your ideas here. Thanks. Well, thanks everyone. Thank you so much for being part of this conversation. And we'll look forward to seeing you next week. Talk about the double empathy problem in healthcare. Have a good week.