 BILL SHARP Welcome to Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharpe. Our show today, Religious Political Strategy, the Vatican, Zhongnan High, and the President's Office. And our guest joining us from Taipei, Taiwan is Dr. Fabrizio Bosato, a return guest to Asian Review. He is currently a Taiwan fellow at National Juncture University in Taipei. Well, let's get right at it because this is a really interesting topic and a big one as well. There's been a, shall we call it a rapprochement between the Holy See and the Chinese Communist Party, which has resulted in a signed agreement that seems to remain secret, but suggests closer cooperation between these two entities. What's going on? Well, first of all, let me make a point of realization. The agreement is provisional, but as you say, it marks, and those are, that is the term used by the Holy See Press Office, it marks the rapprochement between the two sides. It is an agreement on the manor of respect. Signally, it is historic because the consequences of it will unfold over the next decade. Say the contents of the agreement not being revealed, so this creates the opportunity for narratives about the agreement to be propelated to the public, the Holy See and the Communist Party of China and Beijing express satisfaction about the agreement, but we don't know the specifics. I want to release the contents of the agreement. Why don't they want to make known the contents of the agreement, the provisions of the agreement? Well, because it not doing that allows both specifically, we don't know, we know that the pope, and he said it in an interview to the, to his letter to the Chinese Catholic, which was issued soon after the agreement, that the pope will name the bishops. But what about the selection process? We are looking at the, you know, at the black box here. We don't know who is going to select the bishops, probably the Communist Party. We don't know the criteria for selection. The pope say that he hopes that there will be good shepherd who will share his hope. And then we don't know whether the naming of the bishop will be just a rather naming by the Vatican of decisions that will be made in Beijing or the Vatican will have an actual say or even a veto power in the selection of bishops. So we know that the bishops that were communicated, because they were adhered to the so-called official church, the Catholic Church in China was divided. In two segments, the clandestine underground church, loyal to Rome and the official church, which operates in the open because it is under the control and the authority of the government. So that bishop of the official church, who were previously excommunicated, sorry, were exonerated from excommunication by the agreement. And one of them will even participate in the war of bishops in October. And actually this is a disturbing signal. In the aftermath of the conference of Chinese Catholics named the two bishops that we go to Rome. And this is a crucial continuity with respect to what the Vatican used to do, both in 1998 and 2005, John Paul II and Benedict XVI chose the Chinese bishop that were invited to the world's senate and, well, they were invited with no authorization from Beijing. This time it's the other way around. Well, let me jump in because there's something I think we need to clarify here. Is the Chinese Communist Party going to select the bishops and then the pope will give final approval or is the pope going to select the bishops and the party will give the final approval? That's a very good question. The most common answer is we don't know. Vietnamese have a very interesting model and I'm not sure I understand it as well as maybe I should. But it seems that there is a very cooperative relationship between the Vietnamese Communist Party and the Vatican on the selection of Vietnamese Catholic bishops. Yeah, but in that case, we know how it works. How does it work? In that case, the church comes out with a set of candidates, then the government chooses one and Rome and the pope appoints the chosen candidate. When it comes to China, it seems to be the other way around. Again, it seems to be because we don't know what's in the text of the agreement. It's not clear about this whole process, is there? Isn't there? Yeah. Well, yeah. No, go ahead. I'd like to move on because I've got a whole lot of questions for you. Very good. Another element of difference between Vietnam and China is that the Vietnamese government never created parallel church structures loyal to the government. While in China, there is a patriarchy association of Chinese Catholics and the Chinese Conference of Bishops and the day after the agreement, both bodies released issued a public note which should sound disturbing for Rome and also for the Catholic flock. The note reads that we love the country and the church in this order, and we will carry forward the principle of independence, which means that the Chinese Catholic Church is independent, aka loyal to the government, and the concept of sinicization of religion. That's a big goal with Xi Jinping, isn't it? To sinicize all religions. It doesn't matter if it's Buddhism or Catholicism or Protestantism or whatever, he wants to sinicize them. This is straight from Xi Jinping's playbook. And then the note concludes saying that the Chinese Catholic Church will remain on the path that leads to a socialist society. They're basically saying, yeah, sorry. It does seem that the Pope, as I understand the Pope's motivation for this was, okay, he says he wants to protect the 10 to 12 million Chinese Catholics. But does that mean the end of the underground church? And it also seems like the Pope is, the Catholic Church is getting a lot of competition from Protestantism because it seems that Protestantism is growing faster in China than Catholicism. Yes. Actually, there aren't so many Catholics in China. We are talking about from 10 to 12 million people. And while Protestantism is growing very fast, right now as you know, Protestantism is heavily persecuted by the government. While the Vatican with disagreement hopes to gain more freedom, more religious freedom for Chinese Catholics, the question that should be asked, or one of the questions that should be asked is, what if in 20 years from now, 30 years from now, this is a regime change in China and the Catholic Church ends up being seen as a former collaborator for the regime? Interesting point. Then the Protestants will be the persecuted church. The Catholic Church will be sort of franchising control by the Communist Party. So let me ask you this kind of a little bit of a hardball question. Is the Pope selling out or is he just carrying forth the work of John Paul and Benedict? Well, the Pope is gambling. The fact that he's gambling, this is a big gamble. In his letter to Chinese Catholics, he asked them to trust in the load of history and the church discernment of his will. Well, the meaning of the formula is, well, you know, trust me, I know what I'm doing. Well, you know, it's the same as asking, would you buy a secondhand car from Pope Francis? Well, if I had to buy a secondhand car, I would like to see the papers. But we cannot, the papers have been kept secret. So yes, there's a big risk that the Pope is selling out. And you know, the fact that the government-controlled church in China issued that note and that the government, the Chinese government, chose the two bishops that will go to the war scene of the bishops are already pointing to the fact that Beijing may well have the upper hand in the agreement. You know, I get that impression, too, that the Pope is dancing a bit to Beijing's tune. But you know, something that strikes me about the Pope here, the Pope is an Argentine, OK? His whole background, his bishop, Archbishop Cardinal, is an Argentina. To some degree, he buys into liberation theology, which has its roots in Marxism and Leninism. And I read, and preparing for this interview, I read just the other day, he sent a birthday greeting to the creator of liberation theology, who is a Peruvian priest. Yes, Gustavo Gutierrez. So I think that, you know, for the Pope to reach out to Beijing, it's easier for him than it might be for some other Pope. And he's sort of, I won't say that he's totally into liberation theology, but at least he doesn't reject it. Well, we can say that he adheres to a diluted version of liberation theology. A diluted version, that's a good point. Yes, it's called the Teologia del Pueblo, which means theology of the people. And it was, its main theories is an Argentinian Jesuit, just like Pope Francis, whose name is Juan Carlos Canone. So the theology of the people calls for attention for the poor without calling for political liberation of the oppressed people like the liberation theology does. This say, one of the main theories to liberation theology, a Brazilian priest, Leonardo Boff, when Pope Francis was elected, publicly declared that the winter was over and spring was coming. But what Pope Francis does is, on the one hand, he condemns liberation theology, condemns liberation theology. On the other hand, he adopts, uses his vocabulary. Okay, that's a good point. I think what we're going to have to do is we're going to have to stop right here. We're going to take a one minute break and we come back and we'll finish up the stop. Okay, so you're watching a review and I'm your host, Bill Sharp. My guest today is Dr. Fabrizio Bazzato, coming to us from Taiwan. We are discussing the recent rapprochement between the Vatican and Jonan High, the seat of the Chinese communist government. Later when we come back, we'll also talk about the ramifications for Taiwan. So don't go away. We have a whole lot yet to talk about. Hello, I'm Yukari Kunisue. I'm your host of New Japanese Language Show on Think Tech, Hawaii, called Konnichiwa, Hawaii, broadcasting live every other Monday at 2 p.m. Please join us where we discuss important and useful information for the Japanese language community in Hawaii. The show will be all in Japanese. Hope you can join us every other Monday at 2 p.m. Aloha. I'm Jay Fiedel, Think Tech. Think Tech loves energy. I'm the host of Mina, Marco and me, which is Mina Morita, former chair of the PUC, former legislator and energy dynamics, a consulting organization in energy. Marco Mangostorf is the CEO of Provision Solar in Hilo. Every two weeks, we talk about energy, everything about energy. Come around and watch us. We're on at noon on Mondays every two weeks on Think Tech. Aloha. OK, we're back here. This is Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. Our show today deals with the recent rapprochement between the Vatican and Zhongnanhai, the seat of the Chinese communist government. And we've been talking to our guest, Dr. Fabrizio Bosato, who's very knowledgeable about the, you know, workings of the Vatican. In fact, he wrote his master thesis about the papacy, the diplomacy of the papacy. And so we have an extremely knowledgeable guest today. We were really fortunate to have. And just before the break, we were talking about liberation theology, and we had just about finished that part of our discussion. But we decided to hold off just a bit until we came back. So let's turn back to that and finish that up. And you were about to make a point when I said, let's take a break here. So let's finish your point. Well, yes. So my point was that on the one hand, Pope Francis condemns liberation theology. He publicly say that he does not endorse masses and minute and minutes is so even his story as a bishop testifies to the fact that he always publicly opposed it. On the other hand, he deals to a diluted version of it, which is called field of the people that call for attention to the poor without calling for one. Let's call it armed insurrection or political liberation. If we want to understand Pope Francis political view, we should look at the manifesto for his pontificate, which is the Apostolic Assortation of Angelli Gaudium. And in that document, he calls for poor church for the poor. So charity, mercy, attention to the poor is at the core of the pontificate. Then I know that many people ask the question, is Pope Francis a Marxist? Well, I would say that it's not because it's not systematic enough to be a Marxist. Sometimes it's a very interesting point, very interesting point. Yeah, it seems to adopt a massist view, a massist categories to also found some of his political statements on those premises, but it's not a Marxist. The CC reaching out to China as reaching out to the poor? Well, yes, then who are the poor? In his view, for instance, as a European, I know very well that he considers everybody from the developing world the poor, the proletariat, if you want to use Marxist terms, and then the Europeans are bourgeois. So his view of migration is based on that Marxist understanding of the word. When he comes to China, yes, sorry. No, no, I was just going to say, there seem to be a lot of very similar characteristics between the Vatican and the Chinese Communist Party, the book The Reauthoritarian, the book Very Secret. Xi Jinping wants to be in power forever, and theoretically, popes are in power forever, although this pope said he would have a very short papacy. Yes, but there are some elements of difference. Yes, they're both valuable institutions and very solid institutions. They both have a strong ideology, but the Catholic Church also has the deposit of the faith. Actually, going back to the appointment of Bishop, there might be a problem with Canon 377 of the Canon Law, which is the basic law of the Church, postulates that political authorities cannot choose the bishop, the candidates to bishop it. Also, there is something called apostolic succession, which is the fundamental doctrine of authority of the Church, which says it is a direct and uninterrupted line coming from Christ to the Council of the Apostles and to the bishops. So, according to this doctrine of tenets, bishops must be chosen and appointed by the successors of the apostles and the successor of Peter, the head of the apostle, is the pope. Now, here we have an interfeer, let's call it like that, or an interest within the principle of apostolic succession, because the Communist Party intends to choose the candidates to episcopate. Now, does Pope Francis have a problem with that? Apparently not. What he's asking the Catholic flock to do is to trust him. So, this is why I say it's gambling. It might also be that he wants to, he's willing to take upon himself the blame for making a compromise with the Communist Party so that his successors the next pope won't have to deal with the problem anymore. Let's move on here a little bit because we're time is fittering away here on us. Let's talk about the papacy of Francis. It seems to me that he has a very good image and that he's close to the people, he reaches out to the poor, he's the people's pope, right? But he's a very simple man, he doesn't like all the regal trappings of the papacy. But he's talking about some very controversial issues like same-sex marriage. It seems that he was sort of open to that. The marriage appraised the return of divorced people to the church. He's very strong on climate change. Yeah, he's got big problems with sex scandals. The lingering issues and questions about the Vatican Bank. Is this reaching out to China any kind of way of taking attention off of some of these other problems? Well, yeah, it could be a way to offset a very severe crisis that the church is undergoing because of the sex scandals. With diplomatic success, that may work if the agreement will prove effective and to work to the benefit of the Chinese Catholics. But it could be a case of internal Chinese advance in the sense that a failure to negotiate a good agreement with China would compound with the scandals that the church is already going through. And that would be a public policy disaster, an image disaster for the church and Pope Francis, given that Pope Francis extremely personalised the church public policy. You know, it seems to me also he's incurring a lot of opposition from conservative cardinals. And there's an element of the church who's really coming, who's very unhappy with him. Yes. Well, in what Pope Francis seems to be intending to do in the face of that somber position is just restate his authority. For instance, he chose some bishop's call for his resignation recently. It is listed to do so within the Catholic Church. But he said he was not going to speak one single word about that. And yes, Catholic is to pray for the church which is under attack from the devil. Attack from the devil. Yes. So those cardinals are forces of evil. It's a very simple solution for facing those accusations. But I think he will leave at least a part of the Catholic worldwide very perplexed about... Let's move on here. Because time was frittering away as I mentioned. We talked about the Vatican. We talked about Jong An High, the President's Office, meaning President Tsai Ing-Wen of Taiwan. Is the Pope sort of leveraging Taiwan, the church's relationship with Taiwan in a way to get what he wants in China? I mean, he's not breaking diplomatic relations with Taiwan. He's keeping diplomatic relations, although at a low level. There's no Vatican ambassador in Taiwan. There's a... Yeah, there's just a church from the 17th. He's keeping that formal relationship even at a low level. Is he just leveraging that relationship with Taiwan in order to make sure he gets what he wants in China? Well, I... Personally, I hope he's doing that because if we're in... to work for Francis to... you know, to be Taiwan for the sake of... to terminate relations, if we're not in a relationship with Taiwan for the sake of improving... We have 30 seconds left. If there's Vatican pressure with China, there will be... there will do leave the Holy See without any... leveraging the negotiations. Famously, the Popes Party of China for decades have been asking two things to the Vatican as preconditions for starting negotiations diplomatic relations. Stop interfering in internal affairs of China which relates to the appointment of bishops and that the problem has been solved with a provisional agreement. And the second precondition is to terminate diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Okay. Fab, I think we're going to have to stop it here. We're out of time again. Time always goes by very fast in the show, unfortunately. And... Yeah, that's the last thing. I don't think Pope Francis is going to terminate relations with Taiwan any time soon. He's going to keep them as a leverage vis-à-vis China. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you very much for joining us. And I'm sorry that we got a late start due to all our technical problems. And thank you, our viewing audience for watching us today. Please join us again next week when my guest will be Dr. Mohammad Malik, a professor at the Daniel K. Aeneway Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies. We're going to be talking about the Great Rethink, I guess is what we should call it. The Great Rethink that Australia is undergoing vis-à-vis its relationship with China. So we'll see you then.