 want to start up. Okay, thank you. Good to go. Good morning. Today is July 10, Monday, 10 a.m. Start today. We're holding this meeting of the Gaming Commission virtually. So we'll do a book off. Good morning, Commissioner Bryan. Good morning. I am here. Good morning, Commissioner Hill. Good morning. I'm here. Good morning, Commissioner Skinner. Good morning. Good morning, Commissioner Maynard. Good morning. So we'll get started today is public meeting number 464. As I said, it's July 10. Monday morning, we're starting at 10. Today, just to set the stage, we'll continue the process for selecting an Interim Executive Director for the Massachusetts Gaming Commission. I guess we don't have, we had someone phone in, but we don't have that anymore. Okay. On behalf of my fellow commissioners, I appreciate each individual who has expressed an interest in the role of Interim Executive Director. We'll speak with two candidates today. I want to thank each of them. Each of our superb members of our MGC team who make important contributions to our work every day. I am grateful for their participation today as each interview must be conducted in a public meeting to comply with the Massachusetts Open Meeting Law. Each interview will last approximately 30 minutes, giving equal time to each candidate to answer questions from commissioners. Commission will then deliberate in public regarding the two candidates and will appoint an Interim Executive Director. I want to thank my fellow commissioners, the candidates for this essential role are outside legal team who has been particularly helpful for me during this process and to the public. Before we turn to our outside counsel who will offer more about the process, there is an additional issue that I wanted to note. While arranging to meet with the current Executive Director's reports, and of course, our IEB Director to understand interest in serving as Interim Executive Director, I learned that Director Lillios planned to step down from her position and retire from state government later this summer. We're going to miss Director Lillios terribly. And we'll more formally recognize her main thing in significant tenure and her contributions here at the beginning commission next month. So now I'll turn to item number two on our agenda. And I guess it's Attorney Macarius first. Thank you so much. So Madam Chair, before we move on to that, I raised the issue with you of wanting to have a conversation amongst the five of us in terms of what the interim job was going to be. In part, because of what you just mentioned, which is we have not only the departure of the ED, but also the imminent departure of the Director of IEB, which I like you, I learned that earlier in the spring that her plans unfortunately coincided with Karen's in terms of departure. It is because of that reason, I'd love to have a conversation about exactly what the scope of the interim position is. We talked about adding in a deputy ED, that sort of thing. I don't envision, for my part, that the interim ED would be hiring a deputy executive director restructuring in any manner like that. I don't know how the other four of you feel, but I do think in fairness to the candidates, I'd like to have that conversation. Now, before we start jumping to the next phase of this meeting, which is interviewing the two candidates who are standing at the end of the screening process. Commissioner O'Brien, my apologies. I was just going to have Ann Kaye do their piece, but I'm happy to address your question. And I appreciate the scope of your inquiry now. So I'm happy to hear everyone's thoughts in terms of the executive director position. I do know that Commissioner O'Brien had during the executive director's well's recent review just a few months ago. You made the great suggestion of a number two position. And also, and one that since then, we've actually budgeted for when we approved the budget in June. So that certainly is on top of my speed rates of really clear point. You know, the org chart does have to be approved, ultimately by the commission. But I think your point is should the interim be involved in that, or is that something that could be delegated up strictly to us? Given given the posture we're going to be in with ED director of IED, et cetera, and restructuring and reorganizing, I don't think that's something that in this circumstance fall on the interim ED. That's my two cents on that. So I'm curious to hear everyone else's thoughts with respect to those two roles, those two issues. We had a very short conversation. I see the narrowness of this. And of course, that doesn't mean you can't go broader. But I think that that makes good sense. But I want to get them because I am just processing this and they'll find to Commissioner Hill, Commissioner Maynard. I guess maybe we should just promise that we did budget for executive a number two role. And so I in essence, I think that was implicit approval. But I guess this is another time to also, you know, even address that, if that's really where we would like to go at this juncture. I think the idea was with the expansion of a sort of wagering, the role has taken on a definite increased dimension. It was a big role before and only bigger now. I think Commissioner O'Brien's question is a fair one. I also think it's a good discussion point, not only for the number two, the deputy director, but also, you know, it was mentioned, announced that to the public anyway, that director Lily else will be retiring at the end of August or mid August. And so, you know, I think that there is there are many opportunities here to kind of just figure out whether there will be any shifting on an interim basis in any other capacity. I know when I joined this meeting this morning, I did start off with a very narrow focus. But I think it would behoove us as a commission to think about the bigger picture in that regard. Sweet Madam Chair, I agree. I think that it's important, Madam Chair, that we look at the interim executive director should keep the trains running, should keep everything moving that needs to be done on a daily basis. But if we're selecting a director, that director should be able to make some very important decisions and not be hamstrung by by anyone in the past. And so I think that it's important that we do understand what the role is. So these candidates can understand what the role is. It's fair to us. It's fair to them. So maybe the way to think about it is Executive Director Wells has been in this position now since 2020, January 2020. You have us have been there the whole time. Others have joined in. What when you think about her role and her responsibilities, you're very familiar with them. You've been working with her. You've been working with the team. You know how she's managed. What would be different and what would be the same? I definitely see the difference of the number two, because that hasn't been under her. It is something that we anticipated for her. So I think you also have the question in general of hiring. There are some that have already been posted that will need to be acted on probably before it's even possible to get a posting and a process out for a full-time ED. The question is, do we as a commission want to be more involved? I know we had a discussion years ago in terms of other than the CFO being specifically within the purview of the ED. Arguably every other hire would come to us unless we have delegated that authority. Don't know that we want to get down into so approving gaming agents and that sort of thing. But I do think we had to have a conversation about. Is there a certain line that we want to draw for the interim to say, given the circumstances right now, we want to be involved in approval on these hirings? Or do we want to say that other than the deputy position? This person is free to sort of do the hiring fire as if they were. I'll speak. Go ahead, Jordan. Can I ask what the past past practice has been relative to the authority of the interim ED Director Wells when she was serving in that capacity? I don't believe there were any discussions around these guardrails or anything. The executive director gave shorter notice. And as I said, the process was to shift it to Executive Director Wells. When in a different fashion, there was no internal expression of interest in serving in the interim at that time. So there wasn't this discussion. Commissioner Skinner, so I can't give any any really different insights. I do recall Commissioner O'Brien. I would call the discussion on when the commission would step in and we could look back at our meeting. I don't believe we thought it would be healthy for the organization that we stepped in on all positions because it's the executive director by statute that they have. But on certain high level positions, the commission would work together. And and quite frankly, I can tell you how that's worked in the past. Commissioner O'Brien and I worked with a hiring group of a couple of other. I think it was Executive Director Wells and our diversity officer at the time in the hiring of our general counsel role. I worked with Commissioner Cameron and our diversity officer and executive director Wells on the hiring of the IAB director. We we did similarly for the hiring of the chief people and diversity officer who is present today. Chief Maltrew. So those high level positions. But I think it was also at the executive director's request to, you know, for commission input. So I don't know if we'd have to look back to see if there was any line drawn at Commissioner O'Brien. But I think certainly that, of course, chief financial and accounting officer is by statute. The executive director's higher. My thought is that this interim role will be in play for quite a few months. And I think that it will take us some time to search for a permanent executive director. I would like to see whoever steps into the interim role be set up for success. And if that means that that individual be given the authority to make decisions relative to interim roles, then then I think that's the direction we should move into. I mentioned earlier, director Williams will be stepping down mid August. You know, that IAB director role needs to be filled on an interim basis. You know, I think that we have two outstanding candidates to hear from this afternoon or this morning. And one of them is our general counsel. Should he be appointed interim, I would imagine he would need some assistance, whether it be an appointing an interim deputy director or appointing someone to step into his shoes on an interim basis as GC. Same thing with Dr. Lightbound. I would want these individuals to have whatever tools that they deem necessary at their disposal so that they can be successful in the charge that we are asking of them. And it does. I think Commissioner Maynard be next. Oh, thank you, Madam Chair. I understand what Commissioner Skinner is saying, and I want anyone who steps in this role to have have have latitude to do the business of the Commonwealth. But what I will say is this commission and the entire MGC team has suffered a really deep loss with director Wells and director Lilios leaving. And I want stability. I think that the team wants stability. And what I worry about, Commissioner Skinner, is bringing in new people, promoting people, changing the structure. And then a new ED comes in with the authority to make all these other changes in a different way. And it just creates more instability. So when I'm looking at this from my perspective, it's about stability, long term stability and making sure that the team here at the MGC has the support they need to do their job on a daily basis and not have to worry about who's coming in, who's coming out. I agree with that. If I could just respond, Madam Chair, I agree with that. And so, you know, it doesn't we don't have to stop that granting this individual limited authority to appoint an interim. I think that if the circumstances require absolutely this interim ED should have the authority and responsibility to appoint someone in a permanent role. Should that be necessarily necessary? So I agree with the expressions of Commissioner Maynard. And I actually don't take it to the conclusion that Commissioner Skinner, you just did. I actually see keeping the trains running or the ships moving, however you want to analogize it as the primary role of the interim. And that things like who the director of IB is going to be the deputy executive director are substantially tied to whoever the permanent ED is going to be, which may or may not be in the room, whoever serves at the end of today. Historically, and Karen, I asked her to be on the call. In part, I, you know, we had questions about historic, but when she was twice asked to be in her own, each time she also served, continued to serve as director of IB at the same time. And so the it was not my expectation that we would be them having to put in an interim director of racing or an interim GC that they would be tasked with doing both. So I actually see it more along the lines of not moving forward and saying, go ahead and hire permanent. It's more we keep this, we keep everything steady. We put the gas pedal down and do a quick and good search for the permanent ED, which may or may not be the interim, and then move forward in terms of making those pretty big structural and staff changes at that point. Responses to that, wish I held. Well, I'm in full agreement. An interim executive director, in my opinion, should not be making those decisions at this point. And I will tell you from past experience as a former local official when we've had to put interim people into these positions, there were at no time where we expecting that they were going to be hiring full time people during those few months that they were the interim. And I think what really needs to be emphasized here is whoever the interim director is that we may or may not put in today may not be the executive director in the future. And when you're putting a team together and Commissioner Maynard mentioned this in his remarks and I can attest to this, you've got to have a team that you put together that you can work with. And if you come into a position and there's people in director positions you can't work with, it's not going to be a very comfortable situation for that person or the agency itself. So what I envision today being is as we were going to interview these two individuals is that again, we're going to use the I'll use the same quotations that have been used to keep the train running. That's what I envisioned our interim executive director to do is just get us through until we get finalized on an executive director. So I'm in agreement with Commissioner Maynard, Commissioner O'Brien. We have a lot of decisions that are a lot of people that are going to be hired in the next few months in very, very big positions here in the agency. I want our executive director to be the person who helps us with that, who's going to be there, not in an interim position, but will be there for the future. Commissioner Skinner. Yeah, just a brief comment, I think, in response the information that the interim ED, whoever that may be, would be expected to serve in a dual capacity is new. So I'm glad we're having this conversation, you know, because I didn't know that. I wonder if the candidates know that and something that I think needed to be said and communicated. I, too, am in favor of stability. You know, I do agree to some extent that the permanent executive director should be the one making those high level hiring decisions. But I'm going to go back to what I said initially. I want to make sure that these individuals in this interim capacity, this individual is is set up to be successful. And, you know, if not appointing an interim in any of the roles, any of the upcoming vacancies, then for sure, I'd like to explore other ways where we could be helpful as a commission to meet the needs of this interim person. You know, when I I, the reason why I suggested the potential permanent appointment of certain positions that might become available during this process is, you know, we have a great team. We saw that at implementation of sports wagering, you know, folks I perceive are burnt out somewhat. I also perceive that morale might be a little lacking, a little low right now. And so I want to, you know, ensure the team that we recognize them and that where there is an opportunity for promotion, you know, to step outside of their current roles to do something a little different that they might be interested in to further the goals of the commission. I would certainly want us to take to listen to that and and and take that into consideration as we're making all of these decisions. The decisions that Commissioner Hale just mentioned while there will be a lot of going forward. Thank you. I echo Chris's comments. I'm looking forward to hearing from our two candidates. My instinct about this team and the two candidates who are coming before us is that they're going to have all the sensibilities about their role that will further the commission's interests and will recognize exactly the concerns that you're struggling with. They understand that it's an interim position. They're going to exercise the right judgment and also circle back to the commission where. You know, our input is needed. Now there's a difference between statutorily required. We went through this the other day. Regulatory required, custom and policy. But for an interim position, I think they'll exercise. I have great faith in them making great judgments. And I echo Commissioner Skinner's remarks that they do need to have our support in the tool. So guess I would like to stay somewhat nimble and flexible for the interim. We do have searches anticipated going forward. We can maybe ask the applicants today about these very concerns and see how they might. You know, move forward. Again, I'm trying to replicate what we've done in the past. The one thing I do know is that we never know what might come before us in the respect to responsibilities. And I do want to make sure that the interim executive director is able to serve the commission's needs in the best way possible and in using their judgment. And they're a third. So if we really have to have a guardrail, we should be very clear on that. But I just. I have a great faith in either. So, Madam Chair, it sounds like three of us feel pretty strongly about. I think there's two issues we need to clarify before we interview the candidates, one of which is it was my expectation and understanding based on the past interim role that there wasn't going to be backfelling necessarily. I mean, and I can just get I appreciate you're saying this is the first year hearing of it. But historically, we have not then backfilled that person's job, especially they may be going back to it. So what is the understanding of this commission so we can convey to the candidates you're expected to continue to do your old job, which is historically how this has been in the past. And two, it sounds like at least three of us feel that they should not be making decisions about certain hireings, most particularly the deputy job. And I would say the director of IEB job as well, for my view, would be things that shouldn't be dealt with until the new director comes in. And or maybe that is given the circumstances that we are in. That's something that this commission and body of five is going to be more involved in than they might be otherwise. The director of IEB role, that, you know, has a little bit. It's a different role altogether from other roles in terms of that they. And yes, I am chair, but I'm just quoting the statute that that role does report to the chair. So it is different from the idea, but it's hired by all five. It's the hiring is no different. You know, the reporting structure goes to the chair. Well, I think that's fair, Commissioner O'Brien, but I think that certainly would be a role where the commission would be absolutely involved, right? Yeah. OK, so I think that one, that's a distinction I'm making. Yeah. For sure. And then I think if we look back, I think some of those big roles and if we decide we want a condition hiring without hamstring, maybe we we have that that, you know, in other words, Commissioner O'Brien, maybe you're not as concerned about some of the hiring that would normally take place, particularly at the if the permanent search takes longer than expected. If we need gaming agents, if, you know, right, you know, so maybe it it might sort itself out, but we could certainly make these kinds of address these issues on hiring. Well, I do think the two most pressing is. Is there an expectation that they're not going to be doing their current job when they're in or they're doing both? And that absolutely needs to be clear. And to the deputy job, in my view, is something that should be held until the permanent ID is selected. I think I think I can if you're counting numbers and you were saying three, I am in agreement with that second part that the and then with respect to the first issue, I think we need discussion around that. I do know that the second director Wells told me that it was very, very hard for her to be both executive director and IEB director. With that said, we have not traditionally backfilled. But what we could do is rather than backfill, we could maybe to kind of come to a compromise, Commissioner Skinner saying the tools. So, you know, does it mean giving support in a different way in a creative way, using our very talented team to help support? If there if there are if there's an open position, create, you know, create, in other words, if the individual applicant feels like can't do both. And I'm not even sure if we've established that, right? We haven't met with the applicants, so we could ask them about that today, too. Right. That's definitely part of the conversation. Right. Commissioner Maynard, should we establish that in advance? I want to add something in. One is I agree with Commissioner O'Brien, but I will go a step further. I think any senior director or deputy director position right now is something that should be looked at by the commission. Now, let me explain that. It's a little ironic because some of the feedback I'm getting over the last few weeks is that sometimes the commission is two in the weeds. And I agree. I think that's fair feedback. And I'm going to work to address that feedback as a commissioner. But I also think the team would want us to be engaged in this process if the executive director could be temporary and likely will be. And so, you know, I think when we look at this, it's it's a balance. This is all a balancing act. And the statute creates a lot of the push and pull that exists at the commission. But I think at the end of the day, we should be looking at over these positions, any senior position. I would I would call them anything of the deputy director level up. You know, we should be a little bit. Involved in right now, especially during this time. Now, when the permanent, full-time executive director is placed. Then we should step back, right, as a commission and not be involved in the nitty gritty. And we need to think about our roles. And this is a good time to do it, in my opinion, to think about our roles vis-a-vis the team when we're looking at making these big structural changes. So can we proceed with the process going forward? Or do we need to address something affirmatively still? It seems like you have at least three of us, if not more, the degree in terms of positing the question of backfilling or not. I think that's fair, because if the expectation someone had was they were going to not have to do their old job and that's not the expectation. That's obviously a pretty substantial factor. For both us and the candidates. And then two, I agree with Commissioner Maynard's assessment. I would draw that line in the same place that he did. I don't know if there's a third that feels that way. But I think that at least the majority of us felt that deputy E.D. slot was definitely something that needed to wait till the permanent came in. But I have the same mind of Commissioner Maynard. Both in terms of pulling back ultimately when we can, unless we're going to run and do their work in a way that's most efficient for them. But right now, maybe being a little more involved when you get to that deputy director and director level. I think we're probably in an all in agreement, but I'm going to let everyone speak to themselves with respect. And when we're talking about the deputy director, we're talking about the number two position that we touched it. Right. It's probably fair and somebody can object to what I'm going to say. We would recognize that the permanent executive director should be able to hire their number two, but that probably the commission may want to be involved in it as well. The second part I'm going to let you agree with. I know that from my perspective, we would not authorize or wouldn't. I wouldn't expect the interim to stay. I'm going to pick a number two, knowing that they're an interim position for, you know, because it's it's really important that that be a duo that works well together. So is there any disagreement on that? I don't disagree. I just I have one caveat. I think that I I know I would not see anything wrong with the interim PD appointing an interim deputy. I see it as, you know, a growth opportunity potentially for someone who might be interested when internally, I'm sorry. I see what you're saying. I'm sorry to say I'm just like in person talking right now. Oh, I see my apologies, Commissioner. You know, someone in general who, you know, might be planning to apply for that position or not. But this will give, you know, someone to I don't know who said it. The person who works closely with the interim, the interim director or the ED permanently, they're going to need to gel. And so, you know, I don't see a problem with having the interim have that number two. The interim is going to be new at this job. They're going to need to learn. Right along with someone, what better way to do that with someone who they trust internally to get themselves off the ground. And, you know, it's a two for because the individual who may be interested internally, even on an interim basis, could gain some very valuable experience in that role. And I would just I wouldn't want to lose that. Um, to have them lose that chance to do that. Madam chair, I do agree that the interim, sorry, Commissioner Hale, the interim should not be appointing a permanent deputy director. Thank you, Madam chair. And I love Commissioner Skinner, when you offer your your thoughts, because I they're they're very thought provoking. But I can assure you from past experience and in agencies that I've seen and local communities that I have served that to do two interim positions would not would not be a very good thing to do. It would cause a lot of issues and just take my word for it that you wouldn't get the positive result that I think you hope that people would get from it. But it's thought provoking. And I love the fact that you want to see people better themselves. And if there was a way to do that, I would be in full agreement. I'm not so sure that this would be the route you would want to go at this time. But my question, Madam chair, is although we have our opinions as a commission on what the interim executive director can do and not do, statutorily are we overstepping our boundaries? And I think that's a question for our legal counsel. We feel like you should not be hiring an interim assistant. We believe you should just keep the trains rolling. But statutorily, are we doing something we're not supposed to be doing with those comments? I'm going to turn to the council. Councilor Mackey, good morning. Yeah, or I invite Mr. Macarius to jump in here. I'm not sure commissioner Hill exactly what what action you are concerned about would overstep the statutory authority. So, for example, hiring under the statute under the statute, I believe the executive director could hire department heads could, in this case, could hire the number two person statutorily. We're asking and saying that we don't agree that that person in an interim position should be doing that. I honestly don't think that you'd be circumventing the statute if with respect to a, you know, an interim period that honestly could last just a few months. You know, if you if you said, for example, you know, we want you to continue to run the show here, move things forward. But there are going to be a couple of positions that we think it makes a lot more sense for the permanent E.D. to be involved in, for example, the permanent executive directors, director, Port Deputy or the hiring of the IEB director. I think that would be a perfectly appropriate and sensible position to take. You know, there may be some hiring decisions that you want, want to make and are able to make during this interim period. But there might be a couple where, yeah, it makes more sense to wait just because that relationship between the permanent E.D. and that hire is going to be, you know, very important to the ongoing functioning of commission. OK, thank you, madam chair and thank you, David. So commissioners, do you think that questions are the issues that you phrase now be something that you can comfortably bring up in each candidate yet for the guidance and then during our deliberations, I suppose, if we need to clarify these kind of conditions, we could do that in our deliberation. But that makes sense. Commissioner Browning. Yeah, I mean, I think going in, I actually absolutely intended to ask some of these areas, because to me, they're pretty critical to my decision at the end of the day. And clearly, if it's not something that they've heard yet, this is going to be new to them in terms of the parameters and the guardrails on the interim position. I would just think going forward, since we've reached consensus on some of these things, that that's laid out to them in advance, not belaboring the conversation that they have to sit through when we get their 30 minutes. And I don't want to chew up their 30 minutes with this conversation. But I do think that laying that out to them upfront in terms of the scope of the interim job and the authority, this needs to be called down to a very short summary and presented to them up front, I think, before we go into their 30 minutes. Oh, so you want to start it at the beginning, as opposed to make it a condition that are deliberations? I think they need to know up front this and maybe they're listening. I don't know if they've been instructed not to listen to us at all. I don't know. But they may need a short summary of we discussed this or, you know, we delayed the start by almost an hour to have this conversation. And we have reached consensus to be clear. We want in fairness to you to be clear. This is how the Commission sees this role that may or may not change, you know, your answers, but you're probably going to get questions on that. I think they should know that up front before we wrap up their 30 minutes. Is there anything else in what regard? Anything else that would be something that I think we started with the executive director of current positions right now around hiring? And is it fair to say it's hiring at those level, the level that we've talked about in the past? That's more commission intervention. And the expectation of doing both jobs and that sounds like it might be a new. Could we just double check on that? Is everybody is all is there a consensus on the idea that the there would not be a back well, but they would continue to do both jobs using their team's tools to help them? Commissioner Hill, that's a nod. Yes. Yes. Commissioner Maynard. That would be my my hope. OK. And I'm I'm also fine with that. And again, respecting, I think, Commissioner Skinner's one point, which was that, you know, we want them to be successful and we can check in to make sure that things are going well and and and not presume that it's not overwhelming or something, right? So, Commissioner Skinner, you have the consensus without me. Well, I guess I'm saying you would say that there would be a back. But I don't I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah, well, and I don't want to speak for the new interim. So I think, you know, to Commissioner Brian's point, we do need to sort of set those expectations right up front before, you know, to lay the groundwork so that they understand what we discussed here today. So laying the groundwork would be your comfort. The idea that there wasn't 100 percent wasn't a majority was a majority, a consensus, but not unanimous around the backfill. Would you like that when we talk to the candidates? Yeah, that's factual, so I don't know. OK. So, Commissioner Brian, I'm going to ask that you you lay that out to the candidates because it was your you moved on it. Is there anything else? Commissioner Maynard, are you all set? I'm all set. Anything else that I'm thinking can come up with the candidates. OK, Commissioner Hill, are you all set? OK, Commissioner Skinner. Yes, I'll say thanks. All right. So with that, we're going to move to item number two on our agenda. And that's the review of the interim executive director selection process. I want to thank Commissioner Skinner for her work on that committee, as well as Chief Motru. And of course, A&K, for your your guidance with me and along the way as we convened that committee. Appreciate your guidance very, very much. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I don't have a lot to add to the process, especially after hearing this discussion. It's I think the commission is well prepared to begin the next step in the process. So so the screening committee did meet twice and reviewed in internal candidates who had expressed interest in the position and it is forwarding to the full commission. Two names of folks who are interested in the position have expressed a willingness to be interviewed today. And as I understand it, the plan is to have a 30 minute interview with each. Mr. Mulder has shared with each of you a set of potential interview questions. Those are suggestions. Obviously, the interviews could take slightly different forms, but as always, and David, if you have more to add to that, please do. It's not a bad idea to kind of have a similar set of questions so that you can get similar you can get apples to apples comparisons between the two. The two interviews, as you know, are Todd Grossman, the current general counsel for the commission and Alex Lightbound, the current head chief of the racing division and had veterinarian for the commission. So I don't know which of the two are planned first. Grace, perhaps, might know that better than I do. But with that, unless if there are I'll I'm happy to take any questions about the process and any questions about what may or may not be OK during the interviews, but it is a public job interview effectively. So anything else? But I wanted to just add one thing. I think it's important for my fellow commissioners to know that the screening committee was presented with two names. And those are the two names that came out of this process. I would also like to. I'm sorry, was there any interviewing conducted by the screening committee or no? Can I pause for one second, because I'm going to ask if I could have a five minute break, please. And then we'll reconvene here. OK. Thank you very much. Thanks, Dave. I'll do a roll call because we're holding this meeting virtually. We took a quick pause. Thank you for that, everyone. Commissioner O'Brien, I am here. Mr. Hill here. Mr. Skinner, I'm here. Mr. Maynard. Here. OK, great. An attorney, McCarros, I think that Commissioner Skinner made a statement and then Commissioner O'Brien asked a question. I just wanted to make sure that there are points of clarification. Is there any? Sure, I can clarify. I just wanted to to make sure I think the question Commissioner O'Brien, you asked was were there any interviews and Commissioner Skinner had mentioned sort of how how we got to two candidates. There were other candidates at the in front of the screening committee at the outset in the course of discussing the process, which was which was a task that Mr. Mulder and I were tasked with by the screening committee with different with each of those folks. Several withdrew had thought about it some more, thought about the position about the process and had withdrew for for your own reasons. Afterwards, the screening committee did have a discussion of the two candidates before you and determined that they they felt comfortable with the quality of the two candidates to present. So I'm not I feel like I'm asking a question about here, say, or something. I'm not asking you to tell me questions that may have occurred. I'm just asking about whether the fact of interviewing these candidates happened with the steering committee or is this the first time they're coming in front of any member of the Commission for questioning? No, no interviews happened with the particular members with the screening committee. They were aware that they were being discussed, but they did not interview with the screen. OK, thanks. So I think I'm turning curious. I don't know if you have anything to add to your comments. I do not. OK, I think we're turning to Madam Chair. I'm sorry, I do need to I do need to make a correction. Attorney McCary Wilson, in one of your statements, my understanding is that the charge of the screening committee was to present two names for consideration by the full commission. I need to clarify, since I'm the one who made the comment that caused a little bit of angst. That is what the screening committee did. I understood that the committee could not advance any less than two names. And so here we are today. So relative to the comfort level. Passing on these two names. I don't know that that discussion was had. So I just I want to correct that for the record. Commissioners understood. I think the what I what I mean by that is that you had. I think we had a there's at least a brief discussion that. You know that this this sort of concluded that process and that those two names would be advanced rather than try to try to figure out if there's any other process to be had for it. Yeah, that's yes. But yes, I think it's important for the commissioners to know that all five commissioners, including the members who are on the screening committee, are are reviewing these candidates for the first time in an interview and determining whether they are appropriate fits for the job. No presumption is made that either one you know, has has the job or it's et cetera. It's it needs to be done through this process. I for the record, I am again, I express this publicly on. You know, I find I said this earlier, we have two outstanding candidates who are committed public servants. And I appreciate very much. They're coming forward today. We're going to get started on those interviews and praise. Do you want to let us know who. Is the first candidate. Yeah, so first will be General Counsel Todd Grossman. And I will have them join momentarily. Okay. And you'll keep track of time. Of course, we can add a little flexibility of necessary. Okay. Are you all set to agree? Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Grace. Should we do we need to pause for a minute or so? Just a few minutes. Okay. Madam chair, we should be all set. Thank you. Thank you, Dave. We paused momentarily. Good morning. General Counsel Grossman. We're going to say Todd. But because we just paused briefly, we're going to do a quick roll call again. I am here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I never left. And. And. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I never left. And, and, and you're going to. Use first names and, and taught. You can do the same. As you wish. So, you know, thank you. And then just briefly say my guys, my gratitude. This is really. Difficult one. But anyone to be interviewing. We appreciate very much. and as there's an interview with us and we're looking forward to a nice discussion today. I think that Eileen is going to give just a few general remarks that we discussed and that's what caused us to be late. So thank you for giving us and thank you for what you know is always careful consideration by discussion. All right, Eileen? Sure. Good morning, Todd. And I'm sorry to extend your torture by delaying everything for an hour. It did everything to do with us as a body trying to come together and talk about what the scope of the interim job would be and what everyone's understanding was. And we did realize there were a couple of points that needed clarification. And so I'm just going to say what the two points were in general so that you understand where we're coming from. I think full disclosure so that you know, you know what you're signing up for. It's like raising your hand and they're chained in the rules of the game when you're after the fact potentially. So one of the things that we brought up was whether the expectation was you were going to have to continue to do your current position in addition to the interim job. Historically when Karen has done this twice in the past that has been how this works. And so we didn't want there to be any expectation that this was going to be a complete shift over to interim ED and passing off the GC responsibilities to someone else. Now that's not to say that we aren't gonna be supportive if you're selected and you wanna go forward with making sure that the job can be done and supported for both the interim job and the GC job. But I think it's important to say that and I think Karen has been open. It's difficult to do two jobs at once and two big jobs at once. But I wanted and this body wanted you to understand that's historically how it's been done and there was no expectation that this was going to be sort of a back filled interim GC, we're gonna have to work with you if you're selected to make sure the work of the commission gets done in both jobs but it wouldn't be stepping out of one and into another completely. And then the second had to do with the scope of hiring and decisions going forward if you were interim ED. We are restructuring as you know sports wagering has come on. We as a body saw the need for a deputy executive director that role is on the books. It's on the budget, the anticipation as a job description when we drafted and hired, et cetera. But that is not something that we envision the interim ED doing. That is something that would be the ultimate ED be it you or someone else would then go through that process. And that led to a broader conversation in terms of given the flux that we're in right now structurally given that change, given the departure of not only the ED but also the imminent departure of the director of IEB that we the commission are going to be involved in any hiring decisions that would be sort of director level and above that would need to happen during your charge if you were to be selected as interim. And I don't, I leave it to any commissioners if I've misstated or omitted anything but those were the two main points that came out of the hour long conversation that we had this morning. Pressure said if you want to add, okay. So kicking it off with a bang there Todd just laying down some things that may not have been clear in terms of how the process got you to this point but to reiterate what the chair said this is always an uncomfortable situation to be interviewed and to do so in public is a big ask. And so I also wanted to thank you personally before we even get started. Thank you. If you don't mind, I will refer to you by your formal nomenclature. You can do either. I'm fine with either. No, I appreciate that. And Madam Chair, commissioners and Dave I'll David Muldrew appreciate you having me here today. It's actually quite an honor to have even been selected to be considered for this position. So I appreciate the time and energy that's going into this is obviously an important decision. It's a good time in our history here at the gaming commission. This is an institution that's really important to a lot of us, including myself which is why I'm certainly open and interested in stepping into this role if this is the right decision for the organization. So thank you just for having me here today. I appreciate the opportunity and certainly excited to get to talk a little bit about myself and answer any questions you may have but Brian, I appreciate that backdrop for starters. I certainly have thoughts about all of this but I can work with, of course, whatever parameters the commission is interested in setting up. Thank you. Thanks, Todd. And again, I know it's hard to change but you should feel comfortable calling us whatever you want to call us. We'll call you Todd for right now. Absolutely. Okay, great. Commissures, do you want to start with some questions? Commissioner Hill, Brad? Yeah, hi Todd. So can you talk to us about how your experience would allow you to be able to direct an agency of over a hundred individuals as compared to overseeing a department of just a few? Yeah, thank you, Commissioner Hill. I appreciate the question. I think that kind of gets right to the heart of the matter. I'd start by saying that I think I have a diversity of experiences throughout my career that have left me prepared to step into this acting role. I've obviously served as legal counsel. I've been a member of boards and commissions myself. I've been a prosecutor, a civil litigator. Been in this regulatory space now for quite some time. And through it all, I've had the opportunity to manage people in a variety of different contexts. Certainly to be fair, I have never managed a team of 100 plus people before. So I don't want to suggest otherwise but certainly as it relates to the legal department, I've managed a really exceptional group of people, very high performing group. I think just in the capacity as a general counsel, we have a view and a reach into so many different divisions within this organization that a lot of the strategies and considerations that go into leading an organization of this sort are ones that I'm very familiar with and have had the opportunity to set in motion. I've had the chance over the course of my time here at the gaming commission to work very closely with the executive directors, all three of them at the moment and with Karen in particular. So I certainly have a great sense as to what it takes I think to be a great leader and to manage people. I think managing people is one that takes real thought but it is also I think more of an art than a science. I think what you learned to see very quickly is that everyone is different and everyone needs to be given the attention that will make them the most effective and efficient they can be. So my work here at the commission has certainly afforded me an opportunity to manage people and to have great insight into how that has done and some of my past experiences, I have managed folks as well. Beginning with my time in the district attorney's office I managed a whole team of lawyers in the Maldon district court. So throughout my career I have certainly had a chance to serve in that particular capacity in addition to being a lawyer. It seems to me that the executive director role the acting executive director role in particular is certainly heavily focused on the management piece of it but I think there are two parts to that Commissioner Hill and all I think that it's important in order to be a good manager to have a strong proficiency in both what I would consider to be the front of the house and the back of the house in order to be able to connect with people by the front of the house I certainly mean things like our exact subject matter whether it's casino gaming or sports wagering or horse racing and responsible gaming of course lays over all of those areas and I believe I bring that to the table and I have a good working proficiency in all of those things but it also requires proficiency in the back of the house type issues including things like the management of personnel and ensuring proper training of people and the contracts are all in place and the finances are understood and I have experience and exposure into all of those areas as well. So while this certainly would be my first foray into management of a team this large I would say two things just that A, I feel like my experience to date has gotten me to a place where I'm prepared for that and secondly I'm also prepared to work closely with the commissioners themselves to ensure that we're advancing the right philosophies and that we have a strong tone at the top. We've talked a lot about tone at the top and that's always front of mind for me and something I would be bringing to the table in this particular role and I'm certainly happy to talk more about that but Commissioner Hill I hope that answers your question. Madam Chair, I have a follow up. Sure. So you've talked about the being at the top and something that I care very deeply about for this commission is the workplace environment and creating a positive workplace environment and ensuring that we have a positive workplace environment in what ways can you in this role create that positive work and place environment that I think is so important not only to my fellow commissioners but obviously to the employees that work here. I think that's an excellent question as well. I think that, well, certainly I would start by saying a change in leadership is always difficult but I think it provides a great opportunity to reflect on where we are. We've certainly gone through a lot in the past couple of years really, the past year in particular and I must just pause for a moment if I may to thank Karen and her great leadership. She's been a real mentor to me and a friend and I've learned so much from her and I would say there would certainly be a healthy dose of Karen Wells in any leadership that I am able to offer to the commission moving forward but to answer your question more specifically I think it's an opportunity to reflect on where we are and how we got here and things we can do better. The way to do that, I think we take account of the team. We wanna understand how everyone is feeling. I'm not particularly concerned as to whether we will be able to do this. We have what I believe to be really just an exceptional and talented team across the org chart left to right, up and down without fail. So it's really a matter of ensuring that we have great communication processes in place that employees feel seen, they feel empowered, important and that there's autonomy for the right individuals and for the staff themselves to make the decisions they need to make. And so one of the ways to your point that I had thought that I would engage in that is to make sure that I'm very present whether it's at the properties themselves, at the track we're here in the office and that people know where to find me and that I'm open to discussing whatever it is whether it's with the manager and I think that's always the best place to start but with individuals as well and since I have had an opportunity to be involved in so many different issues I've had the great pleasure of meeting so many of our team members really and gotten to them and owe them really well. So I think it's really just a matter of understanding how people are feeling. I think in many respects the people will have a lot of great things to say I think this is an excellent place to work. I'm quite certain as well that people might have some things that they'd like to see adjusted or things we could do better. And I wanna know what those things are so we can work on those things whether it's collectively or in a more micro fashion. And I'm also certain that there are probably a lot of great ideas out there. I'm sure members of the team have just ideas that we'd never even considered as to how we can improve or refine our approach to doing our jobs. And to your point that Commissioner Hill I think that if we're able to do this and there's no question in my mind that we can and for me, even in an interim role I feel like we can do this that you ensure that people are more engaged that they're working hard, that they're enjoying their work and that leads ultimately I think to better decision making and more thoughtful approach to regulating these multiple industries that we oversee. Thank you Madam Chair and thank you Todd. Madam Chair, I'll take the second question if you don't mind. Patricia, thank you. Todd, you spoke a little bit about Karen's leadership and I know you have worked with Karen for a long time beginning at the Department of Public Safety. I share your sentiment on Karen's leadership. I think she is an excellent leader. My question is what one or two leadership principles has Karen demonstrated to you that you think will serve you well in an interim executive director role? I think that a couple of things. First, I think Karen has an innate ability and I like to think I do too and would certainly be more aware of this perhaps in connecting with people and understanding where they're coming from, how they're feeling and what it takes for them to be driven, to be excellent. And I think that it just takes time to reach out to people, to be present and to communicate with them. And I think that's one of the things that she did really well and will continue to do really well. And that's one of the things that I always try to do as well is to connect with people to spend the time to understand where folks are coming from, why they're asking a particular question, what other issues may be circulating that we can look at as well. So I think connecting with people is one of the things. And along those lines, I have always felt that she was someone and I try to be the same way and I would again be more and super aware of this as well that she was someone whose office I could always walk into and share my view without fear of any kind of judgment or otherwise as to what I thought about a particular issue or a particular subject that we were about to embark upon. And I think that that is really important. It's important to be able to share conflicting views on really difficult topics. And I need not tell you that we seem to be always dealing with really complicated topics. And the only way to reach really sound conclusions I think in many ways is to open yourself to listening to different views and ensure that people don't feel like they need to tell you or me what I wanna hear because that's not the way I operate. And I think if you were to ask any members of the legal team, they would tell you that that I always invite people to challenge my point of view and offer different perspectives. And I think that's something Karen's done. I think that's something I would continue to do to make sure that we achieve the greatest wisdom we possibly can with our decision. Thank you. Michelle Browner, Michelle Lager. Do you want me to go or you can go. Michelle Mender, do you want me to go? I have one quick follow up to what Commissioner Hill asked and then a different question. I know Malden District Court has a handful of ADAs in it. You have some other supervisory experience. What's the largest group that you've actually supervised? Paul Parker. Yeah, I think I mean, the legal department here, the Malden District Court, I mean, that is those are the biggest. Equivalent. Those are the equivalents. I mean, you know. Okay. Yeah, I think to be fair, that's about right. Okay. And then the question that I have now is sort of a question of balance and it has to do somewhat with sort of how you perceive or plan to balance sort of out back to the GC group. If you were to do both interim and GC and then also there's five of us that obviously would need access to you in addition to you trying to do all of this. So the question I have is what is the plan for you in terms of making sure there's enough balance to get to the five of us and then balance to take care of the GC responsibilities as well? I think managing one schedule is always one of the more complicated pieces of operating in a management role. And certainly that would be the case here. With the opening backdrop, I think that it'll take planning for sure. I'm very fortunate that the legal team is staffed by folks whose judgment I trust. And I certainly think that some of the work would fall on their shoulders and I trust them completely to do that where I would certainly be called upon to handle a lot of other things that I had present I don't have to handle. So I think that it would, first of all, require that I be slightly less hands-on in the legal department, of course, for me to be able to do this. I do think there is additional staffing that is going to be required. And we have already commenced that search process. I think that would have to be a key. I think ensuring proper resources, not just in the legal department, but across the organization is going to be critical. And for sure, if I am no longer full-time in the legal department, I think there will be additional resources required there. But ultimately, I think scheduling my meetings with the commissioners and with senior staff and other staff and making sure that I have calendar time to appear at the different properties and be available to folks is going to be the centerpiece of my success if I am chosen to do this. It's something that I do now, but it'll take an adjustment, of course, as to the areas that I can focus on on the legal side. But I think it's really just about planning. It's about empowering people, showing them that you trust them and making sure that sound decisions are being made across the board. So I think the ultimate answer to your question is that I think it'll just, on my part, take really particularized planning of my calendar and my schedule to ensure that I'm able to address all the issues that will be before. Oh, that's, I'll set question on Brian. I need, okay, Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair, Counselor. You spoke earlier of communication and I was happy to hear that when you were discussing your answer with Commissioner Hill. My biggest concern at the MGC is bridge building and tearing down walls. Can you speak a little bit about your experience and what you think needs to be done to make sure that bridges are built and not just between staff members, not just between team members in the commission, between stakeholders in the commission. There's a lot of communicating that Karen did in this role, right? Between a lot of different groups. Can you speak a little bit about your ability to do that and how you're gonna move that forward? Absolutely, I mean, I think communication goes hand in hand with the relationship building and I think there's, as you kind of pointed out, there are a number of stakeholders in that regard. Obviously, there's the commissioners, there's the staff at the commission. There's also the license holders and the vendors and I would add another group into the mix and that is other regulators. So I think there's a lot of room for communication there so we can coordinate our efforts. I think you don't have to go too far out beyond the walls of the gaming commission into the industry to hear that one of the things the industry itself is calling for is greater communication and coordination amongst regulators. So that's something that I certainly would look to engage in. I have a number of contacts myself and I know all of you do as well. And that is an area that I think we can continue moving forward on. I think it's important that we communicate with our licensees so that they know where they stand and what's expected of them to the extent possible. I know we have a new industry we're regulating and that is one of the great challenges is just communicating the expectations. So I certainly wanna ensure that there's a time and attention spent on communicating with all of our licensees now. So they know where we're looking to go with certain issues and how we expect them to achieve compliance. But at its core, communication within our own organization is certainly critical. And I think it again, it starts with the tone at the top from the commission, from the executive director in through the senior management and leadership and I think that is certainly one of the places I would start is by sitting down with the senior leadership team to talk about how we communicate with our staff that we make sure that they're part of the team that they feel connected to what we're doing here and that if there are questions or concerns we talk about them. That the answer shouldn't be no necessarily right out of the gate. I think there are a lot of ways that oftentimes we can get to yes in different ways that people expected. But I think just ultimately being present and letting people see that we're here and letting the managers have the autonomy to manage their teams in their own styles. And I certainly wouldn't be one to impose my style on anyone else. I think we have really again tremendous leadership in this organization already. And it would just be a matter of just really ensuring folks that that is the approach that we are taking here is that all of these folks should connect with their teams. They have the support from the top that they need to do their jobs properly if there are additional resources they can provide. We can certainly talk to that but I want people to feel as though they're a part of something bigger than themselves as I do. And that's why I'm here. And I think Commissioner Maynard you've kind of tapped into one of the things that I would really hope to pursue right from the jump if I were certainly selected for that position for this position. Gershay Ho. Yes, if it's okay with my fellow commissioners I do have another question which I think is something that we should learn about is as you know Todd, things don't always go as planned. Things can go smooth and everybody's happy but when things don't go so smoothly things can go south very quickly. So I need to know how you would react when work strategies are not going as planned. Well, I think that it's important to recognize that this particular position is not for the faint of heart. I don't think my present position is either. I think it's one that it took me, my career to build up the confidence to be able to serve in this kind of role. I think the first time you stand in front of a jury arguing a case you realize right off the bat that you need to be able to project confidence. You need to be able to deal with things that don't go the way you plan them to go and you need to be able to pivot and move forward. And ultimately I think that's what I offer you here is that steady hand who won't get shaken by any big items or big issues that come our way. It seems to me that there's no issue that we can't handle. It requires us to be just very thoughtful and contemplative and conscientious and always just go back to our mission statement and think about what we're trying to do here exactly. And with that in mind, I think I can offer you a steady hand, one that is able to think quickly on my feet but also take the time to go back and reflect on whatever the issue might be that didn't go the way we planned and see if there are different ways of getting from point A to point B. And I think ultimately there always are. And I think that that's where the collaboration and communication come in again. It's important to just understand why perhaps something didn't go the way that we expected it to go or that we wanted it to go and think about whether option B is just as good or viable as well. So I don't think I'm someone who will get shaken by anything that may come our way even if things don't go as we planned. Thank you, Todd. Thank you, Madam Chair. Other questions, Kishers? Well, Todd, I again want to thank you. This is not an easy process. I want to ask a question. But before I ask that question, I want to make sure to extend my gratitude for your work and the work of the legal department over the course of the last year. You mentioned last year being tough. You know, one of the tough parts of the job is that we are a state agency and we're a creature of statutory authority and responsibility. And on August 1st, a date that I can't get out of my head because it was Commissioner Maynard's appointment date. You know, we were tasked with standing up a new industry. While we had prepared for it and everybody had contemplated it, the law wasn't exactly what we anticipated. And that took a lot of thought and work on your part, the legal department's work, the commissioners as we all tried to sort out our responsibilities. So I just want to acknowledge that that tough year, and it is almost a year now, right? August 1st was one that was defined by law. And I think I asked that, I preface that because I would like to know what are you proudest of in your role this past year? When I reflect on the past year from this vantage point, I think that the one thing that stands out to me is just looking at the team we have built here and the pride that I think we can all share in having accomplished what we have under some pretty challenging circumstances. It's something that I will always remember throughout the rest of my career and probably my life and that I'm very proud to have been a part of. And it didn't happen by accident. It happened through very thoughtful planning, through a lot of teamwork, a lot of compromise and a lot of just friendship almost. And that's how at the end of the day, we all came out of it together. And when I look around it, just my team in the legal department and organization-wide, that's the one thing that always gets me, that I'm just so proud to have been a part of that. Thanks, thanks for that. And then I'll follow up. I'd like to end with that because it's such a positive thought. Todd, I wanna follow up though with the opportunity for you to make any kind of concluding statements. I don't think the commissioners are asking for any more questions, but also anything that you wanna add that we didn't address. I think we, thank you, Madam Chair and commissioners. Again, I really appreciate this. Regardless how this goes, I know we're going to be in great hands and I look forward to the future. I think the future for us is bright. As I said, we do have a really big opportunity in front of us, one to just take stock of where we are. And I think I can offer you all of the leadership and know-how that would be helpful in ensuring that we're able to seamlessly move ahead. That there is no disruption in what we're doing. The show must go on. The casinos are still open. The sports wagering sites are still open. There's a horse racing season that is still ongoing. We have to keep doing what we're doing. And this transition, I believe, if I am the one selected can be seamless and disruptive. And that's what I believe I can offer you. So with that, I appreciate the opportunity. Look forward to working with you all one way or the other. Moving forward. And thank you so much for your time here this morning. Thanks, Todd. Thank you very much. I think we'll pause for five minutes now, commissioners. Well, Great Springs on candidate number two. We'll take a five minute break. Okay. Thanks, everyone. Dave, I think we're all set. I think I can still say good morning. Back to like that. We are incredibly tight. So I'm going to call you Alex today because we did do a brief pause to make sure all of us are here. I'm going to do a roll call. Commissioner Bryan. Hi, I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. Okay. So hi, Alex. Sorry to keep you waiting. First off, I want to thank you for all that you do for the gaming commission every day. I want to especially thank you for stepping forward and considering this interim executive director position and being willing to go through this very public interview process. We know it's difficult, no fun, but I am extremely grateful for your willingness to participate today. And we're looking forward to hearing from you. And it's great to see you. And I'm going to be referring to the commissioners as first names. So that if you choose to do that, you should just to be more comfortable in terms of as we would have done if we were doing this in a normal interview fashion. Before we get started on our questions, Commissioner Bryan raised some interesting questions early on. That's why we lost a little bit of time to her credit. It helped us have a good discussion. And so she's going to just address a few of those issues. Okay, thanks. Thank you. We're now good afternoon, officially, Alex. Thank you as well. I'm sure we're all say this to you, but it's not comfortable process to interview and most certainly even more stuff publicly. So I thank you for your willingness to do it and answer the questions we have for you today. And also I do apologize for the delay. It's mostly my fault. I had some questions about what our collective understanding was of the interim role and understanding what, you know, your understanding of it might be. So there's two points where we had a fulsome conversation and I'm just going to bring you up to speed where we ended up so that you have an understanding going forward of expectations. The first one had to do with whether or not the expectation would be that as an interim you would walk out of your director of racing role, step into the interim role and someone else would backfill and take over the duties of the interim racing director. And historically that has not happened, you know, Karen has done this twice and each time done the hats of both IED director and ED simultaneously as interim. And not to say that we would not, if you were interim, do everything we could to support you in terms of making sure you have what you need as interim and director of racing, but the expectation would be you would still retain responsibilities for the director of racing position at the same time. So that's quite a bit to chew on, but I wanted to make sure that you and anyone else who was up for this understood that was the expectation. And then the second one had to do with we talked about the hiring authority that the interim would have, particularly where we are right now where we're expanding because of sports rager and we had a conversation of the body that the ultimate executive director would need a deputy executive director and that position would be, it's budgeted for, but posting has some draft, it hasn't gone out that sort of thing. But the expectation of the five of us was that whoever the ultimate ED is, whether it's you or someone else, that that person would be the one who hires that deputy ED position, that that's not something that would be filled now. You've probably heard either internally or talking this morning also that Loretta Lilios is leaving the end of the summer and she'd made that decision a while ago. So that's another position. Obviously we're interim, we discussed and posted about that sort of thing. That's something that the commission would be handling. And we agreed that anything sort of director level or up should it arise, that would really be something the commission would be actively involved in for the interim role. So just wanted to make sure that those two conclusions that we reached this morning would just convey to you before we jump in and start asking you questions. Thank you. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. I'm on my new laptop and I'm not sure how it works. So yeah. And I did have that question about the, if my role as director of racing would continue. And I'm glad to hear that it would because that kind of, I'd hate to fill one position just to have another group of people feel uncertain and all that. So I think that's a good way to go forward. Yeah. Great. I have a follow up question not to jump commissioner Hill's line, but. So right, they had a question. Okay. So jumping on that, Alex, looking at your resume and I've forgotten that you served as the interim director of racing for about seven months back in 2015. So I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about, I'm assuming it was the same thing where you had to be ops manager and director of racing simultaneously for that time period. Exactly. Talk about the challenges and what you did back then when you were interim. Yeah. So you're correct. It was all three positions at that point that I managed. And I just, there's a good racing staff that's very supportive. And so they helped out where needed. Some of the duties kind of would overlap a little bit where, you know, if I was the, as the veterinarian I would take a particular issue to the director of racing. So, you know, that was just a one step type of thing. But yeah, I think within the commission there's plenty of support to make that possible. And it worked out fine. So what did you find the most challenging part of having to wear the multiple hats? So it's obviously saving you time in that scenario but can you describe another one where that? Yeah. I'm trying to think, I really can't think of anything that turned out to be difficult. I mean, obviously I had to be really careful about time management and prioritizing issues ago. So things came up being, okay, you know this needs my attention right now, I need to do that. And, you know, maybe address another issue a little later on that type of thing. So my second question is following up on that a little bit too, sort of scheduling and balancing which is you've got, we've talked a little bit about balancing director of racing with the interim responsibilities. And then there's also balancing the fact that there's five of us that you would then be answering to as interim and just if you can speak to how you would intend to ensure you're balancing not only the responsibilities of director of racing and the agency requirements but also out to the five of us if you were to be selected as interim. Yeah, and I think one of the first things to do would be to meet with each one of you and find out what your expectations are and how I can meet them. And what kind of communication you would like and that whole thing as far as, you know do we do a weekly meeting? Do we do something more frequently? Do you prefer an email? You know, just get the lines of communication open. I think that's really important to do that. And then basically to see what items are tops on your all agenda for going forward during this timeframe. Thanks. Thank you, Madam Chair and hi, Alex. So can you talk to us a little bit about how your experience would allow you to be able to direct an agency of over a hundred people as compared to overseeing a department of just a few? Yeah, so when I was the director of racing under the state racing commission, there were probably, you know, 50 or so people and it was actually during a very tumultuous time for the commission that we were going from. That was when Greyhound Racing was winding down. We two of our long-term employees that were also basically at our director of racing at the time. And then the chief inspector in charge of licensing were both retiring. That's how I ended up becoming the interim director of racing. Then on top of that, we had lost our head accountant a few years before that and they had not replaced them. So there was a lot going on then. And in addition to that, we also moved over to division of professional licensure. We stopped being a standalone state agency under consumer affairs and moved to DPL under consumer affairs. So I was doing all of that at that time doing the director of racing, chief veterinarian job. And again, it worked out fine, just prioritizing what needed to be done first and trying to see what efficiencies could be made, seeing how we could proceed without having a director of licensing and a director of overseeing the accountants. Can I have a follow-up question, Madam Chair? Absolutely. So Alex, as you know, I think we all agree that this particular agency has a very positive workplace environment. So can you talk to us about how your experience and what ways you can ensure that you would create a positive workplace environment? Should you be chosen for this position? Again, I think communication is really important. So checking in with all the commissioners and getting a strong sense of what the mission for the interim period of time is. And then checking in, obviously, with the senior staff members. One thing I do on the racing side is instead of just having a performance review that's done through the HR department, I also just check in periodically with everybody. I may not be able to do that at the commission level with all 100 employees, but certainly I can do it with as many as possible. Just to get a feeling, how is your job going? Are there problems with it? Are there ways that you need to be better supported? Is there something that you would like to be doing that you're not doing? We've ended up a lot of our seasonal staff are cross-trained. And it's nice because even though they have their primary position, they have this interest and they shadow the other positions. And then if something comes up and we need somebody, they already have that training. And I think that's been really positive for them to have that outweigh. Thank you Madam Chair. Thank you, Alex. Kisha. Good morning, Alex. Good morning. So there's a lot to be said about leadership and what that requires to be effective. And Executive Director Wells has been held up as a model leader. I'm sure experienced some of that. You've worked with Karen for a long time, pretty much, I think, since the inception of the agency. So my question to you is, what one or two leadership principals has Karen demonstrated to you that you think will serve you well if you are appointed as interim Executive Director? She has many very strong qualities, obviously. We all know that. I found it very helpful to me personally how well she would listen to me when I came to her. It's an issue that I needed her help on. And then how thoughtfully she would go about helping resolve the issue. So I found that I think that's a true leader. Listening to whoever is in the organization, really listening to what the issue is, and then backing them up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Dr. Leibbaum. So you also mentioned communication. And I think that the biggest concern any organization can have is building bridges between stakeholders and also making sure that there are no walls and barriers. Can you talk to me a little bit about your experience bringing people together and how you see that going forward if you're given the interim position? Absolutely. That's really important. So with racing, we constantly are having meetings with stakeholders with a bunch of different stakeholders, the horsemen, the track operators, that whole thing. One thing when we first moved over to the Gaming Commission, we were going to be able to implement some pretty significant medication changes. And I even started the year before, started telling people, even when we were under state racing, I said, look, we are going to move over to the Gaming Commission next year. And this is what the policies are probably going to be. And start thinking now, it helps some of the veterinarians. They didn't order certain drugs for the next year because they knew they were going to be really strictly limited on those. So I think that builds a sense of trust with people when you're looking out for them as well. You're saying, yeah, we're going to institute these regulations, but we want to give you plenty of information about it, training. We also instituted a new policy on our basics. And we actually had extensive meetings with members of both horsemen's groups, the private veterinarians, the regulatory veterinarians, people from the racetracks themselves. And we got the scientific information. We got policies from other jurisdictions. And it could have been a very contentious issue, but we were able to sit down as a group, discuss the various possibilities, come up with what we thought was the plan. And then we also, obviously, we ran it by the legal team. And the legal team was very important in this process because they pointed out a few things and said, look, we really recommend you do it. We like your timing and all this, but we think this is how you should go as far as the regulation part of it. And we did use that. And it's been very effective for seven or eight years now. I'm very open again to, and I'm not sure how if the commission feels differently, I'm certainly willing to hear it. But a lot of people, yeah, they have my cell phone, and they can call me whenever. And I do get a lot of calls. And that's OK. People are, for the most part, respectful. I'm trying to do it during business hours. But certainly, if there's an emergency that comes up and I need to hear about it, I'd rather hear about something when it happens than hear about it a day later when maybe our response could have been a little quicker and more effective. So everybody knows it. If you need to call, Alex, call her. Thank you. Krisha Hill, Brad. I actually have a follow-up to something you just said. You piqued my interest in something that you just said that I'd like to get a little bit more information. Can you elaborate a little bit on your working with the other jurisdictions and other agencies? In this position, should you be chosen, you're going to have to be working with the AG's office, with members of the legislature, and then other jurisdictions when it comes to possibly promulgating future regulations, things of that sort. And I think I heard you say how you had worked with other jurisdictions and other agencies. So if you could elaborate a little bit for me on that, I'd appreciate it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have not worked extensively with the AG's office, but I've worked, obviously, on the veterinary front with the Department of Agriculture Resources quite a bit. When I was with, when we're over DPL for a little bit, I had some interaction with the Office of Employee Relations. I have a little bit of interaction with the veterinary board and the Department of Public Health. So all those agencies have already established things with, which may not really come into play at the executive director level, but I am comfortable working with other state agencies. On the racing side, we always work with the other commissions throughout the country. The RCI, Racing Commissioners International, which all the racing states that have racing belong to, they come up with model rules. And I'm on the chair of the Standard Red Committee for that one. And so I've worked extensively with those groups. And RCI has recently formed a sports betting arm of the Racing Commissioners International, which I know Bruce Band has been involved on that. Chad has gone on some of their meetings as well. So it's just natural to have those associations. There's many, just like, I'm sure there's many gaming associations and groups. I worked with the National, the NTIRA, they're an organization that sort of, among many other activities, they certify tracks. And so, you know, back in 2011, we certified Suffolk for the first time and that was updated regularly. As you all know, I've worked with the Jockey Guild, which is a national organization. They come before us and there's, you know, any other number of, you know, country-wide agencies that we work with on getting their input on different racing items. And a lot of them now are expanding into the sports betting because a lot of those states are doing their sports betting through their racing properties. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Alex. Commissioner, is there any other questions? Mr. Maynard, do you need anything? Mr. Maynard, okay. I need just one follow-up. You had mentioned about, I think you said there were about 15 employees at one point, sort of that chaotic period when you were, you know, worrying about five different aspects, sounds like. Is that the largest group that you've overseen ballpark wise? Yes. Okay. Can I ask, did you say 50 or 15? I thought it was five zero. Five zero. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks. These ears, thank you. Commissioner Hill, Brad? Yes, I have one further question, Alex. And, you know, we love when things go smoothly in our jobs, but sometimes they don't always go smoothly. So could you talk to us a little bit about how you would react when strategies that have been put before you are not going as planned? So, you know, the first thing is to figure out why it's, why it isn't going according to plan. And then obviously start figuring out how to correct that. And whether, I would say most of the time when we have policies in place, it's not really a problem with the policy. But I think more often if we don't have policies in place, then we have problems. So I wasn't always a big policy person, but I think I've developed to be that way. Not that every single thing has to be written down into policy, but it really, if you have the set there and everybody's aware of it, I think things go much smoother. And, you know, things are gonna pop up. You know, we obviously like with COVID, that was unexpected. You know, when we got moved over to division of professional licensure, we were told it was gonna be for six months because as you probably know, Brad, the gaming legislation was supposed to pass right away. And that was, you know, we moved over January of 10 and we thought we'd be moved over to a gaming commission by the middle of that summer. And three years later, you know, so yeah, things are gonna pop up all the time. People are going to come and go in your agency. It's particularly, you know, somebody like Karen Leving and Loretta, you know, it's a big thing for our agency. But we need to look at what we need going forward and figure that course out. Thank you. Of course. So, Alex, first off, I wanna thank you again for coming forward and expressing your interest in this position and again, consciously accepting the rules of the game, which is to do this in the public. None of us like it, but we understand it's the opening of the rules. Couple of things. First off, I wanna thank you for a few things. This past year, since August 1st, there's been a lot of concentration on sports wagering and they're having to stand it up. But you also dealt with and have dealt with proposals coming forward for potential new tracks and that's been a lot to navigate. And I wanted to acknowledge that good work that took place during this very busy time. And you've been navigating really through, as you say, policy development. I also wanna thank you because you came forward to me about a delegation authority that was given to you years ago. But you came forward recognizing there's a lot of goodness but there's some that I really don't want to own. And then other stuff creates those efficiencies that you're talking about that we should own. And that conversation was very meaningful to me. So I could understand your roles and your responsibilities more clearly. And we are continuing to memorialize that but there's some good work that has taken place on that and looking to finalize it. But I just wanted to let you know that I was aware when you said create efficiencies, I appreciate that very, very much. I also wanna acknowledge because not all the commissioners were here. I think Commissioner Skinner was here in a different role than when she was chief of licensing but your leadership during COVID. And you mentioned this in your resume. And I thought, as you look back at this past year and the years of COVID, what are you proudest of? I think the COVID response kind of trumps everything that we got through it. As you know, racing just like the rest of gaming is highly regulated and to add on top of that the COVID restrictions was a lot. And on my resume, you'll see I was a private veterinarian on the backside at Suffolk and Rockingham when I first got out of school. And so I know what it's like to be a licensee and have to follow regulations from a commission. And so I really getting everybody on board the horsemen, the tracks and everything else. And tweaking the regulations, so the statewide regulations so they would work for racing I think was really important. So I'm really proud that we were able to do that and get them open safely within a few months and that our staff was able to work in person, basically. Those jobs are you can't do remotely. And I'm really proud that we were able to bring everybody back safely and get the racing money back out there to everyone. And that involved working with different state agencies, you know, the Department of Agriculture, Public Health, looking at what the governor's office had come up with. We also were getting regulations that other tracks were putting in and other national organizations for racing we're using. So we got a lot of different input on that. And then I think it's important. I think after COVID, we all kind of took a sigh of relief that for the most part is over, but there's still a lot of other problems out there in general. And so I think trying to keep everybody's spirits up through that and say, yeah, you know, yeah, we know the economy is a little challenging right now. There's housing issues, it's hard to buy a car and all that. Just to keep everybody's spirits up through that whole period and continuing on. And when you say everybody, you're talking about your full-time and seasonal staff. Yes, yeah. Can you describe the challenges of addressing a seasonal staff? So yeah, for one thing, they, most of them, well, some of them have other jobs because they're in the job market still. We do have some that are retired. But so we have to keep in mind that their work with us is not their only job and they may have other commitments. Obviously, they try to put us first or they let us know ahead of time what their availability will be. But we have to work with that. So it's not like I have a staff that is going to be here nine to five Monday through Friday. Our hours at Plain Ridge vary throughout the year. So at one point you're asking people for four o'clock posts, then you're asking them for a two o'clock post and then you're asking them for a one o'clock post. So your staff has to be flexible and willing to be flexible. They also oftentimes end up having to work some of the weekend days. So they have to be able to work those hours. And then it's just something that we've worked with HR and then IEB and others within the commission. They all have to be rehired each year and then taken off at the end of the year. So that procedure where we've worked to streamline it as much as we can, it still is a fair amount of work and paperwork and getting everybody on. And then again, one of the efficiencies is just to have an orientation day where a lot of the, if we haven't gotten some of the paperwork back from them, the HR team get it then. We do the ethics training with the legal department. They come down and put on a nice display of what the breaks are as far as that goes and remind everybody. And then we have to work with IT to get everybody's emails back up and running again. And again, IT has over the years has looked at some efficiencies there as well. But it is a, those are some of the challenges with the seasonal staff. And then I'll start with one more follow-up of Alex. It would be good for you to remind all of us. And I think I've got this right, that racing opened earlier than gaming during COVID. And that just a few weeks, a couple of weeks maybe or a week or so. Yeah, I might have been a week or so, yeah. So Dr. Lightbound in person navigated the guidelines implementation for COVID with not only her staff, but all of the public, all the horse people, all the folks who make racing happen. You were asked to do that through the governor's plan to get racing going early. Yes, yes. And I just wanted to note that you were first. And that's, for me, having gone through that, forever grateful. Oh, thank you. So are there any other questions, commissioners? Trish Skinner, Matisha? Okay, I thought you're, you're a video and I guess not our audio. So Alex, do you have any concluding statements or anything you wanna add that we didn't address that you had hoped that we would address? No, I guess, thank you for giving me the opportunity to interview for this position. I feel where I've been in interim or acting positions before, through some very tumultuous times when we were moving from one agency to another and there were different staff changes and all for three years there that I would be up to this particular position. And I just wanna thank you again for the opportunity to interview. That's good. Trish was all set. All right. Thank you, Dr. Lightbaum. And we'll excuse you as we continue on with our deliberations, which is next on our agenda. Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you. So as I noted at the beginning of our meeting, commissioners, our deliberations also I have to be conducted in public and we are slated today to select an interim executive director. This point of time is 12.30, it would make sense. We could take a break. I'd recommend if you could try to work for a half an hour before taking a break to see if maybe we could finish up this meeting today by one. Sounds good to me. Okay, fine. Okay. So let's hear your thoughts. Are you leaning in to your skin? Sure. I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but... No, no, no. The audio was off. You know, I guess it's best to just rip the Band-Aid off here. It's not an easy process to go through, but I'm gonna take a really simple approach here. I think both of the candidates who appeared today seem to be equipped to take on all that this interim HD job entails, particularly with the support of the great team of colleagues that we have and each one of us commissioners. But obviously we only need one of them. And I think very highly of both of them. And I really don't like having to choose between the two of them. My decision is gonna be strictly based on logic for me, structurally, the responsibilities and nature of the role of general counsel and themselves to a more natural progression to interim executive director in terms of the breadth and range of agency exposure. And I believe for that reason, Todd is the choice that better serves the interests of this agency. Questions? So I feel your pain. I think we all do. This is a very difficult process and forum. I am conflicted. I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say because while I hear and appreciate and agree with what you just said, Nikisha, the level of the size of supervision that Dr. Leipman has had compared to Todd and also the fact that she's actually done an interim before and had to balance and knows. And it seems like the position she'd have to co-manage may not be as all-consuming for the agency as Todd's. But he also has the breadth of experience in pretty much every department we have. And Alex has that smaller universe. So I think they're both capable of it. I don't think this is a circumstance at all where you're looking at one and saying they're not up to the task. I don't think that at all, which makes the decision that much more difficult. But I don't have a choice right off the tip of my tongue. I'm curious to hear what my fellow commissioners have to say. Mr. Hill, can you show me? I'll rip the Band-Aid off as well, Commissioner Skinner. Both of the folks before us interviewed very well today and both brought very different perspectives of how they would do the job and their experience. And one thing that I'm leaning toward in our discussion is the experience of overseeing a group of individuals, a large amount of individuals. And Dr. Lightbaum showed us that she has done that already and did very well at it while she was in that position. The fact that she has worked with other jurisdictions, other agencies really, really shined a light on her for me in that instance, because I think cooperations between other jurisdictions and certainly other offices is something that we need to consider in this position. When I looked at the executive director's job description that we've seen many times over the last couple of weeks, she has seen, for example, overseas coordinates development of an efficient system review and referral of different things. She's done that. She's been put into a position, as she mentioned during COVID, that I think is very important that we remember as we are deciding who should be put in this position. But as Commissioner O'Brien just said, Todd has certainly worked with every department at some point in his position as our general counsel. But for me, the fact that we've had somebody who was already in an interim position did very well by it. Oversawed as we now have come to find over 50 people in the agency that she had to oversee for a bit. I think it's something that is certainly weighing heavy on my decision-making as she has proven herself to be able to be put into a position and persevere. And do well. And I think that experience can't be overlooked. So I'll start with that, Madam Chair. Thanks, Commissioner Hill. Commissioner Maynard, what's your thinking? Well, first of all, we have two fantastic candidates. And that's always a good place to be. Like Commissioner O'Brien, I'm really torn because I see the strengths in each. And general counsels do touch every piece of an organization and they oftentimes have a lot of influence on the organization. But I've also worked with Dr. Lightbound and to your delegation of authority question, worked closely on that with Commissioner Hill. And I got to really see the way that she thinks and she works and how she sees the role that she currently has, which informs kind of what I think about when I think about what an interim ED is. And really, I appreciate Commissioner O'Brien's setting on the stage before we even started because I'm more thinking about who fits the role of an interim ED more than I'm thinking about who would be the best long-term ED or who would be the best in other circumstances. Alex's experience in managing and being nimble when her agency was literally being moved across state government several times, not once, is definitely weighing heavily on me. Commissioner O'Brien? Well, Madam Chair hasn't gone yet. You're circling back to me. Yeah. I wondered if you had heard from your fellow commissioners if you learned if there was any more definition. I mean, I'm absolutely so proud of the two candidates. I thought they did a superb job today. I'm not surprised. They both have made significant contributions. They have very different styles. They collaborate with each other very frequently and I know they do that well. So those styles melt with others. I see Councilor Grossman of having very important relationships with external stakeholders that would continue. That might be new for Dr. Leitham. On the other hand, it's not lost on me that Dr. Leitham builds relationships well. She's dealing with a whole range of personalities and interests and stakeholders from legislators and lawyers alike and officials and management at PPC to the people that I know she has such great respect for and that's probably those who make racing and industry that this state values and continues to cherish from those, you know, whether farmers who are making the green space that we all value to the job use and most of all, she is really a guardian of the safety of the athletes, the horses. So Todd has done a superb job. As I mentioned earlier, navigating this past year, leading the regulatory effort in conjunction with his team at A&J. So I do think we have a good challenge. I turn to you to see now that you've heard from all of us whether there's something that you believe in hearing the help to you, Commissioner O'Reilly. I mean, before you go, can I offer something? Absolutely, I have to turn to her because nobody else had any idea. No, no, and I don't wanna, I've already had it. I've already said my decimations. I don't wanna, I hear what each of you is saying. I do agree, no matter what. But I think Todd said this, the agency will be okay because whoever's in that role, hopefully, will continue to have the support that we've all seen rise over this past year. And even before that with COVID, I can appreciate that both individuals bring something very different to the table in terms of their experience, their skillset, their qualifications. I recognize Dr. Lightbound's prior interim role and I don't discount that at all. The fact that she was installed as an interim director of racing speaks volumes. But I can't speak definitively as I sit here today about the success that she had in that interim role. I do appreciate the fact that she has had experience managing a large team of individuals that takes a really special kind of person to manage and lead that many personalities and leadership styles and quirks, quite frankly. But I do think past subject matter expertise warrants serious consideration. I think there would be a greater learning curve for Dr. Lightbound. I don't doubt that she could and would rise to the occasion, but I think where we have a general counsel who has touched really every single piece of this agency knows the legal issues, knows what kinds of challenges the agency will face on a broader level and has faced on a broader level and can speak specifically on day one to those issues without a lot of prep work, stability. Jordan used that word earlier today. I think that Todd would lead the way relative to stability again in that he could get right in there and hit the ground running. I mean, we're talking about next Monday, assuming we get to a decision today where this individual would be expected to step in. So just adding that little piece, also need to say again, this is very difficult to be having this discussion in public, but I know that it is required. I think very highly, I think I said this earlier both candidates. And I appreciate the time that they put in consideration that they put into their thoughts around, their desire to step in here. Yeah, I mean, I'm going, I'm still going through the, it comes out as an even draw for me, to be honest. I think that Dr. Leipan has more experience in terms of the breadth of management and dealing with some challenging, being the frontline person to have to answer to sort of outside agents or the therapists being the rap for an agency. But Todd's physically here, he knows the players, he knows the topics. And I'm trying to think about this as just an, this is the interim position. And if we move quickly, this is a short-term issue. I worry about the disruption to the G-seeker with Todd. I feel like it's a bigger ask to do both of those and not to diminish at all what Dr. Leipan does, but particularly once the racing season were to wrap up, we still needed that, it would be a downtime. And to be blunt, if this were happening in the winter, it'd be a little easier for me because if that was her downtime, it'd be a little more free time for her to step in and do this without being involved. Right now we're at peak kind of horse racing season and needing to pull her in two directions. I almost wish we had two interims and we were going to divide up who was going to oversee what and they just answered to us and she could take racing and some of the other things and we could split it up, but we're obviously not doing that. I think given the comment that Commissioner Skinner made in terms of the topic areas and having to jump in as quickly as we're asking this person to do, which is in a week, it's a very, very close call for me, but I do think I lean toward Todd as being able to do it faster. And then we do this as an interim in terms of getting out the full job description and getting this up and running with a permanent ED and a deputy ED and pulling everybody in and I am low to have to make a choice between the two of them, but I do think when you look at speed on the on ramp, it is probably less for Todd than it is for Alex. Although I think the balance is going to be a little harder for him if that's the answer that we've come up with at the end of this. Sure, hello, Commissioner Maynard. I'm going to say what I really need. I would like to, I'm thinking, and this is tough. I would like to go to lunch, think about it and come back. That's what I would like to do because I should also have the benefit of some solitude to be able to sit and think, make a T-Chart if I want to, just because all of our work has to be done in public doesn't mean it has to be done on the spot. And I need to think, you know? I mean, we just went through these interviews in real time. I have to think. Do you want to take a break? Okay, then let's take a break. It's 10 of one, why don't we return at 1.30? Okay, so that sounds good. Commissioner Hill, you are all right with that? Excellent. Thank you, everyone. We'll break into 1.30. I think the rain is really bad, Patricia. It is. I think they're seeing now flash flooding down here too. Can you hear it? We can't hear it, but I just saw the reports that look like all kinds of flash flood warnings. Yeah, no, I meant on my end. It's coming down pretty hard. I might be heavy or open and it is really bad. Yeah. I like the rainstorm, but it's not the same time though. Yeah, that's what I mean. I like a good rainstorm, but not when it's causing complete chaos. Yeah. You know, it's like, there's a happy meeting, right? Yeah. I think folks will probably be joining shortly. Kate Day, I think we're getting close. I can't see everyone. We're in the strangest thing, your camera turned on and you weren't even there. We didn't see you trying to escape, so. And I, and I didn't know. Yeah, that must have been a mystery thing because I had it off and I was not in here unless they did change my computer at some point. I've had some computer, or my doc, I've had some computer problems today. Well, but it was off. It was completely off and then it just, it came on, the camera came on, but you weren't there. Right, Kathy? Did you see that? I just noticed all of a sudden he wasn't there, but I figured he had come in. I didn't know if he had come in or not. But I think we're all here. So, Dave, are we streaming? Okay. Yep, we are. Good to go. Okay, great. All right, pressures, we're holding this meeting virtually. We pause for a lunch and it's convening of the gaming commission. Take a roll call, Commissioner O'Brien. I am here. Good afternoon, Commissioner Hill. Good afternoon, I'm here. Good afternoon, Patricia Skinner. Good afternoon. And Commissioner Maynard. Good afternoon, I'm here. All right, we're all set to move forward. And Commissioner Maynard, you had the smart idea of taking a little bit of a break. So, I'll turn back to you perhaps. Having a little difficulty, Madam Chair, I apologize technologically. My first reflection when I was thinking over the break and thank you for allowing me the time to do that was that it is a blessing to have two great people put themselves up for this. At the same time, the way it happened and the process in which pits two great people against each other really, really gives me a lot of pause. And for that reason, I believe that Commissioner O'Brien's idea and others of settling this after this on who becomes intramedee, I hopefully put that on the calendar, maybe in a scheduling meeting because I don't wanna put any other commissioner in the position that I'm in right now, which is choosing between two great candidates who I honestly don't wanna upset or hurt either one of them because they're doing great work for the commission. And either way this goes, it feels like this process left itself, left a lot to be desired from my perspective. That said, I thought about it during the break. I thought about what we do, how we do it. And I believe that the general council role touches everything and I think I will be voting to go with Todd Grossman. And I say that knowing that I don't wanna hurt and Dr. Lai found it all. And I hope she knows that I think that she's fantastic. I think it's very hard, what she does, it's very unique, it's very challenging. There aren't many people, I'm originally from Kentucky, there aren't a lot of people that deal in the horse world. And so I would like to see a situation where perhaps she's elevated in what she does. But that's where I am. Thank you for the time and I'll yield. I could, Madam Chair, I was thinking over the lunch break about this as well. And I asked Karen whether they had structured the interim differently at all when she did this any of the prior times. And she did point out to me that there were certain things that the structure was a little bit different. Certain divisions answer to the GC as opposed to the EDs. So it wasn't quite as much. I do still have a concern in terms of the workload that would be on the GC having to do both. And I'm positing something to the board, to the commission, which is that taking racing off Todd's plate and having Alex answer straight up to Commissioner Hill, who's sort of the point person on racing and also as a five, the body of five and taking that off Todd's plate, I feel more comfortable, even more comfortable making that decision, not only for the reasons that Commissioner Maynard just talked about, but also trying to make sure that if he's acting as interim, he's got the best shot at balancing GC responsibilities with interim ED responsibilities. And so that is a way in which you could carve out part of it that continues to function in that particular area of expertise that's a creature unto itself. I would feel most comfortable moving forward in that scenario. I think it's doable. I don't think there's anything that stops us from doing it. So I throw that out for consideration also. Wishers, Wishers-Skinner. Now, I'd like to yield to Commissioner Hill, given that this imposes certainly I think added responsibility on him, which I don't doubt that he wouldn't be up for. I just don't want to speak out of turn. I would be fine with that proposal. My question would be, why are we doing it now when we didn't do it in the past? Apparently it was done very early on. And Karen I think is on and can speak to this more directly than me. In one of the first iterations with interim ED, this is how they did it. Well, I want to clarify one thing though on that, Commissioner Hill, you raised a good point because it was never told. I came on four years ago and I was never told that in fact Commissioner Cameron was in charge of racing. So I never treated it as such. I mean, Commissioner Cameron worked like you did, but I didn't ever think that I guess I'm point of clarification that may have been what I think Chair Crosby when he first came in, he delegated as they built the organization where different commissioners were assigned to different roles. I think we know about that history. I never understood, and nor did I afford the time when I was with Commissioner Cameron, know that she was in charge of. So in fact, that was- I'm not saying in charge, I'm just saying more procedurally since he is sort of the point person for horse racing that you designated him to be, she can answer up to all five of us. Structurally, she would basically mean that she would come up to the commission rather than right through the interim. Given that you're in the middle of racing, et cetera, and it takes it off as plate. Right, I just wanted to point that out because Karen, Executive Director Welles said something to me at that effect, I think yesterday or the day before, and I actually didn't ever know that. So I just wanted to point that out, Commissioner Hill, that I'm catching up here too. Certainly different commissioners can be assigned and through the statutory structure to different areas and we've done that. You also work with community mitigation really closely. Commissioner Skinner works with IT closely. Commissioner Maynard has helped on horse racing. Commissioner O'Brien worked very closely with legal, all different responsibilities. I have no problem. I just wanted to make sure that if it meant that she's reporting up to a commissioner, what that means, I have no problem, as long as we all understand it, what that means actually. I just didn't want anyone to think that it was my understanding over during the time. I knew she worked closely with Alex. Yeah, I don't know if, Karen, if you can maybe elaborate a little more on what that was. Sure, so I think you're aware, I served as the interim executive director two times. The first time, I'm trying to figure the year, was maybe 2015, 2016, after Rick Day left and before Ed Bedrosian was put in. At that point, the way the agency was structured is a little bit different, where we had responsible gaming, diversity and workforce development and the O'Buddhman's office reported to the general counsel at that point. So in an effort for efficiencies, because I did serve as both the interim executive director and the director of the IED, not only did I not have those responsibilities as a direct supervisor, but also I would describe it more as, Gail helped and it was almost like an informal, like she'll cover racing, because racing done, there is a lot. It's a very complex setup to supervise that. So Gail Cameron sort of covered that and worked with Alex on that to take some of the pressure off of me during that time period. The second time I was the interim executive director, we didn't do that. So I covered everything and those direct reports reported directly to me. The second time, I will say Loretta Lilios took more of a role in covering the IED when I am eternally grateful to her for that. We all know what a star she is. There was a little bit different and so we've done both models. So I think, yeah, any questions on that? I'm out. So commissioners, another twist in the proposals. What do we think? Certainly, Commissioner Hill, you've been working in tandem with Dr. Leiband in any case. If that's the way the board wants to go, I would be more than happy to do what is needed to get us through this interim period. I'm happy to do it as well. I didn't wanna put extra work on you, Commissioner Hill. I just saw it as, how do we do this efficiently in recognizing the talents that both of these people bring to the table and to the agency? I'm also happy to, we've tagged team a few issues on courses I'm happy to help too. Well, so I'm happy to go along with that proposal. Commissioner O'Brien, if for no other reason than that it allows both candidates to win today. Given that we've put them in just an untenable position here. Correct. So I think that's a good balance. I would also, if Todd will be a voted in at the interim, the second director. I do want to allow a little bit of reference to him in his capacity as interim ED. He certainly should be very much aware of any of the racing issues that need to be brought to the commission. I don't want to completely cut him out in his capacity there. No, I don't think anybody, that's certainly not what I was proposing. It's more rather than any reports that would have gone up to Karen can go either to the body of five or for expediency sake, if she needs to get it to commissioner helpers before it can get to us. But obviously they go through legal currently if they have legal questions. Yeah. And Eileen, I'm sorry. Cutting him out was poor language. I did not mean to imply anything by that. Just in terms of, his capacity is interim ED. He should certainly be aware of whatever matters when you are committed to the commission's potential. I'd like to ask our Chief Human Resources Officer how he feels about that. Is there any complication that we're not thinking about here? No, I don't. I'm glad we came to that. I too thought the process was an issue. No, I think again, having some type of tandem approach is good and that folks can collaborate and folks will see the collaboration between the two and it would set up five example. And I think both my view is that they both in their own way have an ability to instill stability. And to me that's what we want. We want talent, we want execution but we want stability. And I think you'll get that with this, shall I agree? That's a clarifying question. That arrangement would be on an interim basis as well, correct? Yes. Mr. O'Brien, thank you very much. How about Jordaness making faces? So I don't know. Well, and my mute and my stop video button keep coming on and off by themselves today. So that makes it, I can't even say anything. You're not making any progress. No, I mean I was just sitting here wondering if it does enough for you for Alex if the process does, I would be open to you. Yeah, I see what you mean. Like as we go through and a new ED comes in and we're looking at a deputy ID, whether Nikisha, you said it, this is also a time for all of us to rethink the organization for efficiency purposes, right? So. Absolutely. I'm hoping we can roll that into this discussion going forward as every review needs job description. I think Jordan also referenced it earlier today in his remarks. I just, I don't want to miss this opportunity. I think, you know, in this decision that I think we're shaping up to make today we've got some good momentum and I wanna move forward on that. May I Madam Chair? Commissioner Skinner said the word, you know, allow win. I wanna say this, it very much during that break it was in my head that I don't wanna pick a loser here because there are no losers out of these two, not two winners. And really the losers, the losers here is the commission for being in this situation. And so, you know, I'm happy to call myself that because it was a tough decision but there are two winners on the other side of this. I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. Well, we're gonna wanna take a vote. So you can think about that. And in terms of the two candidates I think I've expressed my gratitude back that they were given the opportunity to step forward and they expressed an interest and I'm really, really pleased that they had the opportunity to express their interest and also to shine as leaders in this organization not only to us but to the public. It's really hard to do in public but they did it in public but also they showed what they are in all of their character and all of their strengths came to it today. And what they can add, we have to make a difficult choice and I get that, but they understood that too. I'm just really proud of them for really, I'm proud of them for coming forward and I'm really pleased they had the opportunity to shine today because in the lifetime of a career that doesn't always happen and today they both really, really showed what they're made of. So for that, I'm very grateful. In terms of any arrangement where we want to give the interim executive director some reprieve if it's going to be Tom for that as long as it's understood so that Alex isn't confused as to whether she has to come to all of us or one of us so that we should probably have some clarity. I'll have, we're gonna go forward with that. Why don't Commissioner Hill and Alex work that out and then maybe coordinate the day while true and then report back to us, make sure that it's very clear where things get touchy as we're rules and responsibilities are clear and I wanna make sure that this is a different model. If it is a different model for Alex, wanna make sure it's clear. In terms of process, I wanna thank A&K. This has been a challenge and I am very grateful for their advice along the way and I'm very, very proud of how today works. So thank you to the commissioners. You were very candid in your questions. You were respectful in your questions and I appreciate that. So do I have a motion? Madam Chair, I move that the commission designate General Counsel Todd Grossman to serve as the interim executive director to take effect upon the departure of the current executive director at the conclusion of the day on July 14th, 2023 and further that director Alex Lightbaum at that same time commenced reporting to the commission and in the first instance to Commissioner Hill during the same time period in which we have the interim executive director. Second. Any comments, edits? Commissioner Bryan. Aye. Commissioner Hill. Aye. Commissioner Skinner. Aye. Commissioner Maynard. Aye. And I vote yes. Five-zero. Thank you, everyone and congratulations to General Counsel Grossman. Congratulations to director Lightbaum. We really appreciate you so much. Thanks, everyone. Do we need to break? Are we good? Do we need to, I guess, adjourn? Do we move to adjourn? Okay, I move to adjourn. Yep. Can I jump in here? I'm sorry. Can I jump in here? Sure. I think the next logical question is compensation. If that's something that at what point would we discuss compensation, if not today? We can meet. I can meet with whatever the process going through MENA, what the process would be to discuss that. I would imagine it's going to be, again, a little different. So, you know, I can assist with that. I just, I don't know what the process would be. Yeah, that's the heart of my question. What is the process? So, Madam chair and commissioner Skinner, given the decision that you reached, you do have an executive session noticed on your agenda, which was for the purpose of talking about issues like that, compensation to offer other conditions of the position to offer. However, since you could do that now, or you could have perhaps as a suggestion, Mr. Muldrew working with us could come up with some recommendation on what might make sense given the joint roles. That could then be presented in the later executive session. That's added to another agenda. I just don't know timing wise what works best for you. Cause we'd want to do it before the end of the week. Obviously. Yes, I've seen. Yeah. But if, if for some reason, Todd said, no, thank you. Yes to something without knowing the salary. So. Yeah. I was standing out before the latter approach. Right. Just out of the two. Identified by. Nina. And so because I would like. The benefit of being input in terms of customary here. That's practice. So we have a meeting tomorrow and on Wednesday. So you have. Wrecks on Wednesday morning. As well as a. Agenda setting meeting. Do we want to add the executive session for that time? I have a little trouble understanding you, but I think you were saying you would like the input. From chief. Yes. Rather than us going in today. Cold. We added to Wednesday. Grace. You could get the. Of course, Todd. Can't work on that. So. Turnies. Mackey and Macarius can help with. The language we would need to amend our agenda. Madam chair. I don't want to throw a wretch into things, but it is 156 on Monday. Which means if you're going to add it, you'd be. Under 48 hours for Wednesdays. I know that there have been times where a continued. Event has, has been on the agenda. But I would. Caution that, you know, you're kind of within that 48 hours. So I wouldn't do that. So we have. We have a lunch planned for. Kind of. Celebrate. Karen as well as of course celebrate the whole team, but it is for. Going to be an internal team. Luncheon. We could convene after that on this issue. Commissioners. I think probably everyone's going to be in the office. We could convene on that. Or. We could convene on that. Because I'm hearing. Commissioner Brian is suggesting that. Our. Our vote now is conditioned on acceptance. Is that right? Or. Yeah, I mean he, he could decline. I. Right. I said he could say no. Right. Right. Right. I understand. So. We could convene on that. And then we're within the 48 hours, right? We've got the window. We do it right now. We would need to reserve then. I wanted to complete my thought. That would be our issue around compensation. But we would also need to know. Should we approaching. General counsel Grossman about any other potential. Issues or conditions at this time. And then we could not only approach. Anything else that he wanted to condition. And then we would use what's on today's agenda. For our ability to meet. Five of us. To discuss those conditions. Does that work? Okay. So perhaps. I'd ask. Any other questions. Chief. And either turning Mackey or turning Macarius of both. To, to meet with Todd, does that work for you guys? They can approach and just make sure that. Attorney Grossman is all set. But we'll say that. You know, if he has compensation requests, then we'll, then we'll also get him put from chief. That sound good. Sounds good. And with that, I will second. I'm sorry. Commissioner O'Brien to adjourn and she just seconded. Okay. Thank you so much. Any objections, any edits. I want to turn to our council. Are we all set? Okay. I believe so. We offer today. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay. Commissioner O'Brien. Hi. Commissioner Hill. Hi. Mr. Skinner. Hi. Commissioner Maynard. Hi. I vote yes. Five zero. Thanks everyone. Thank you very much.