 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back again to our last panel of today to give a brief introduction. Who am I? I'm a journalist from Austria, was dealing a lot with Central European countries especially during the communist times. I was often in Poland and also the Czech Republic, Hungary and other communist countries. I was also the international president of the Association of European Journalists. They exist in many European countries and we have a very strong Spanish section of which I'm proud of and also in many countries and now I'm the honorary president of this Association of European Journalists. So as I am a journalist, let me start in a journalistic way to introduce this last panel. I was not here on the first day, you have debated maybe also about the 9th of May, which is the famous Schumann Day in Europe. In Russia it was the famous Victory Day and you might have read that Putin used this day for his own narrative of history. He again attacked the West and said that the West started the war against Russia and so he also said that the West took away the history of the glorious Soviet Union and you can find by the way the speech and also other interesting news about that at the platform EU versus disinfo. I can write it down for you. It is a small but rather interesting team in Brussels by the Council, the European Council, founded there about 15 people. They all speak Russian and they follow Russian media and it was translated and so you will find also now the speech of Putin in Moscow and as you also have known that Putin banned the historical association Memorial, which was founded, I think it was under Gorbachev time, to explore the crimes of Stalin and only about one, two years ago, it was more or less banned and the historians had to close the work. So we have a very distinguished panel, panelist here and I want to give the floor first to Mrs. Olga Huntschar. She comes from Lviv and there she is the director of the Territory of Terror Museum, a memorial museum of the totalitarian regimes in Lviv. So it's not just communist terrorism of course, also the Nazi times and she's also the CEO of the Museum Crisis Center Initiative, which arose in the first days of the Russian war against Ukraine and she's also co-founder of the NGO New Museum and the charitable organization Cultural Heritage Fund of Ukraine. We are very proud and pleased that you among us and the floor is yours Mrs. Huntschar. Thank you. Thank you for invited me and thank you for these days in conference, share your experience. It was very interesting and important for me to see also Ukraine in your plan, plan of your institution and of course your work of support Ukraine. It's very important for all Ukrainian people and Ukrainian people also who stay in Ukraine like me. This is panelist last and all of you talk a lot interesting and wise things and when we talk with moderator about the topic and so on. Moderator asked me that I'm share my experience how to stay in Ukraine, be in Ukraine inside of war and I think is about my personal resistance and solidarity and way how to survive when you're inside of war. I'm director of museum territory of terror and of course in this conference I can share you information about collection of monuments or some performance which we do museum to reflection of past and other project but war change all and a lot of Ukrainians now lost not only their physical life and home destroyed by Russia bombs a lot of Ukrainians people lost their work and their opportunities to be professional in their areas because a lot of process in Ukraine stopped but if we my personal experience I'm in view and we never stop work of museum territory of terror we recognize our great of work and I think it's my personal receipt of resistance and solidarity. A lot of Ukrainian people also continue life inside of war and we use a special device to organize of work it's like generator power bank Starlink and so on because Russia destroyed infrastructure of Ukraine electricity and so on but we understand inside in Ukraine that when army do their work we must do routine work museum work shop work restaurant work hotels work and life go on because it's very important to for important for victory yes they have these two parts of work together army work and we people in more safe place also continuing work and we in museum territory of terror focused on work to save the collection and do special algorithm to protection on all and on the first day of war we all was in museum and we do a lot it's another conference have to save your museum in work condition but also we organize helping for a museum in all Ukraine it's project museum crisis center to collects to stay in Ukraine in territory of hot line yes and we evacuated one museum Lugansk regional museum from star of buildings to view with in cooperation with Ukrainian army and it's about solidarity yes resistance solidarity is that and it's why looks like my life in Ukraine now and experience that we share and now we understand that Russia not stopped unfortunately and Russia can attack another country and now war in Ukraine but we never know the Putin plan yes but also in Ukraine we have this experience about how to survive in war condition and maybe if we have time we create some methodic materials but we also open for another professional also museum professional from another country to share this experience I have my five minutes yes but we will have a second round when you want to add something of course or thanks for for for being brief as as next in an alphabetical order we have mr. dr. Matej Medvedski he comes from a town not far from my town Vienna we are the two closest capitals in the world by the way separated only by 60 kilometers Vienna and Pratislava so he he is he works at the Institute of memory of the nation in Bratislava and especially his his research interests include the central office of the state security between 1940 and 1945 and the post war period and he completed his studies in the Charles University in Bratislava mainly in history English language and literature so Matej the floor is yours for five minutes please thank you mr. Chairman dear colleagues ladies and gentlemen what I intend to speak about is let me say a slightly different perspective from what already we said and I would like to be a more more focused on more recent things for six years now for almost six years now I've been working in Slovakia for Slovak police as an expert giving an expert witnesses in the criminal cases related to extremism and terrorism and from my experience I see that that the threat of national socialism or communist dictatorship is not really something that is that has gone forever and something that is a past issue well in in my opinion in today's Europe we very unfortunately witness the rise of the open or more covert return of these ideologies since I in my research I mostly focus on current national socialism I would like to share some thoughts regarding what they think about us and about their world views they try to disseminate in competition against our mainstream policy on remembrance well if we speak about the right wing extremism the typical narratives related to them are the anti-minority narratives the narratives of a kind of demographic threat and collapse of the civilization or race war that these are connected to the very known concept of palinginesis as is described by comparative fascist studies but also conspiracism and some anti-elite narratives are very strong especially in Europe against the European Union and what is especially important with the look on today's topic or the topics of this event is the historical revisionism that is very much present in this counter cultures or counter societies it is they aim to disrupt our democratic society and the and the era of how they call it false humanism how they try to do it in history since the European memory policies based on humanism and remembering the victims and so on these people that are leave that live among us try to disrupt the common picture of what we how we see the 20th century and among the priority topics of course are topics related to revision revision or denial of Holocaust that is very very common or the reinterpretion of the role of Hitler and Nazis or Waffenesses and similar topics these people living along us try to prepare for they fight and try to make their topics into the mainstream that is what we really face they're trying to cast dubs or disrupt general beliefs in a kind of positive development we encountered over the last decades and try to present their simple slogans as a solution for in my opinion often not existing problems and what is a very very difficult or what is a real threat is that they're inside their groups they're really promoting ideas or notions to our terrorism when I would like to speak less generally more on the Slovak experience what we really face is everything what I described above we see a very critical rise of conspiracies among the general population and general rise of distrust toward the states institutions towards history mainstream history and so on we see rise of our parties that are overtly or semi-overly related to explicit neo-nazism to people who were sharing symbols related to this milieu and so on of course on the other side we also see maybe on our overlapping of these groups the same people or at some extent the same people who are calling for rehabilitation of the Soviet Union and are supporting Joseph Stalin or Russian proxies such as the group Nightwolf's the motorcycle gang these people usually are not allowed to speak in media and are using the power of the social media to spread the ideas or just to disrupt the picture social science try to interpret or make for us therefore I consider it of utmost importance that this conference is held and that we discuss the ideas of how to create and European policy or remembrance and that we discuss these topics and try to spread it among young people try to spread it among older people because old people are very often very affected by the or unprepared to face the things that are flowing to them through the social media and so on and at the end of my presentation I would like to just point that unfortunately we in Slovakia last year in October faced first modern Slovak terrorist attack committed by a national socialist in an American style who pick up his weapon and shoot deliberately two people wounded one another in while expressing while posting his manifesto online expressing strongly antisemitic and national socialist idea so what I hope this conference will also help to you know prepare the society for better ideas thank you mate if I may add one thing which is also important for me as a journalist unfortunately in Slovakia we witness the second murder of a journalist in the last ten ten years or so the first one was the Maltese investigative journalist mrs. Daphne Karuana Galicia and the second was happened five years ago when mr. Jan Kuziak an investigative reporter and his fiancee was really killed in the kind of mafia style he was shot in the head in his home and maybe mate one question only I think the murderers were convicted but where the background or the political background the people behind this murder are they really put are they known and will they be put before court as far as I know the people who were charged and then prosecuted for for ordering the murder are now facing a court and I think I read in the newspaper that just yesterday the prosecutor had his last speech on the court so it's just about to end in a few days probably yeah and at that time the government was brought down by mass protests in Bratislava against the government it was mr. Fiezzo and only two days ago three days ago the government in Slovakia collapsed and mr. the prime minister stopped his to be in his office and there will be elections in autumn and probably mr. Fiezzo who is who was from the leftist party now he turned war to the right and apparently and then we are here back again to Ukraine he will stop the support for Ukraine which is a bit strange because Slovakia is a NATO country and they they helped Ukraine with arms and he already said if I will become prime minister again I will stop the arms shipments to Ukraine okay next speaker we have from Poland mr. Marek Mutor from the platform of European memory and conscience and also from the Osolinsky National Institute and he was especially he was a specialist on history for instance on the Cardinal Kominek who initiated the Polish-German reconciliation process after the Second World War so he has a lot to say I guess and the floor is yours Marek thank you very much welcome thank you for the invitation so we are talking today about lessons of the 20th century history so what does it mean solidarity and resistance for us today and this is also the closing panel so we can summarize somehow the discussions I think that one of the most important experiences of the 20th century history in Europe is the experience of solidarity trade union established in Poland in 1980 so strikes in August 1980 in Poland led to creation of the multi-million movement anti-communist movement and these strikes began the process of transformation which ended in 1989 with collapse of communism and Yalta system so how did it happen because we are searching for the lessons for today so researchers have been searching trying to find proper words I think that better words are that don't fit to the framework of scientific language I noted three words hope maybe desire for freedom remembrance and civil courage hope that unites that made us better that caused the desire of freedom inside in this historical event in Poland very important moment was here before so 1979 and the travel of John Paul II to Poland the millions of people could see each other and feel this hope the second thing is remembrance remembrance especially for victims the remembrance is very often a trigger for the resistance attitude and also the the example from the history that on strike in Gdańsk in 1980 one of the important plot of the strike was the postulate to build the monument for sheep yard workers who were killed by communist authorities ten years before that means in 1970 in events so-called events in December 1970 so remembrance is very important base for the resistance and solidarity and third thing civil courage the most important I think civil courage that means that even even if I am alone I can do something like for example bus driver Tomasz Surowiec from Wrocław from my city who decided to stop the bus and stop the depot because he heard that his colleagues in shipyard in Gdańsk are on strike and he said we have to do the same and very well thousands of people who did this so there was the solidarity and the civil courage so lessons for for today I think that in Europe we have a lot of hope and desire for freedom for sure but do we have a common remembrance especially remembrance for victims I think it's not enough so we needed this memorial which was which was presented by but by zero I saw in the last panel are we are we ready for this it is needed not only because we owe something to the victims but also because it is base of our let's say resilience of of our democratic societies and to build solidarity among each other and to the others and the most important lessons so do we have a civil courage at least are we ready to give up our comfort for example to better help Ukrainian people who are in war now are we ready to be poorer because we have because help costs if we want to help it costs it costs money are we ready to lose our very comfortable economical life in Europe it is not a risk of life in our case it's just a you know wealthy we will be less wealthy less or more so are we are we ready for for this so if our if we are not willing to be poorer talking about solidarity it's worth nothing so this is the lesson for the for the future from the past from the especially past of solidarity movement in Poland thank you thank you Marek and as you told the stories of 1980 I remember also having been there and more or less reporting the whole year of 1981 and the end of 1980 and talking to many solidarity people who later became politicians and presidents prime ministers like mr. Wałęca mr. Nazowiecki so I agree with you I think Poland was in the lead without Poland there wouldn't have been the turnover of 89 and the communist regimes would have stayed at least longer than just till 89 and the German wall wouldn't also have wouldn't have been brought down thanks of and now we will have this is an explanation Mrs. Geraldine Schwartz is now online I hope she can hear us maybe we will see her now yes I think she is here hello Geraldine do you hear us can you hear us no not yet we can't hear you maybe you have to put on the yes now it works yes Geraldine just to present you a little bit you are a German and French journalist author and documentary filmmaker and you also wrote a famous book translated in in several languages les amnesic in French that was a book about the millions of supporters of the Nazi regime not only in German but also you raised the question of French people who worked for or supported the Vichy regime and I think you criticized that in France the debate about the past and about the involvement of people with Nazism was not really put through as in Germany it was but rather late as you wrote but it took place so Geraldine we the floor is now yours and you have five minutes and you are now based in Strasbourg I think no no I was born in Germany I am based in Berlin in Berlin now okay yes just right now I'm talking from Berlin from Berlin hello yes hello everybody sorry not to be there personally but yes I'm I feel of course very excited to be part of this panel I am myself very much interested in the questions of memory work maybe because I'm the daughter of a French mother and the German father maybe we can say the daughter of the French German reconciliation which was the condition for the emergence of Europe I've been aware for I think a long time maybe since my childhood that it is very important to remember the past in order to shape the future of freedom peace and do you hear me well because I hear very good but just not getting is not a sufficient condition to have the past help us make our future better the key is actually how to be remembered in order to learn from history and I would try to make a brief presentation about that and until the second world war in Europe remembering the past only served to glorify the nation to stir up preventism and sanctify heroes and after 1945 the trauma of war of totalitarianism and the Holocaust gave rise to a new ambition in Europe the ambition of learning from history Europe made a promise as you know the promise was never again but never again what is exactly what exactly can we learn from the past I'll try to put it simply I think we can learn from the past first to know ourselves better you know to know what man is capable of for better and for worse and not only acknowledge what happened but how it happens so did we learn from history today in 2023 more than decades after the end of the war and in the last year as I would say in the last decade the memory has begun to crumble you know because of partly because of indifferent younger generations who don't feel who feel a bit distance regarding this past but also because of falsifiers of history eager to impose new nationalist narratives based on hatred and we can see that populists are increasingly or extremists are increasingly successful in Europe with their argument that it is time to get rid of the shadows of the past either by forgetting the shadows of the past or by embellishing them in Italy and Spain for example the glorification of the fascist dictators Mussolini and Franco is spreading at an alarming rate and in France the Rassemblement Nationale which is a political party founded by admirers of the Vichy regime which collaborated with the Third Reich during the war this party is at the doors of power so how could this happen when the memory of the Second World War and the Holocaust seems to be omnipresent in the media but also in the political discourse in commemorations and in fiction I think the work of memory which has been done in the last 50 years in Europe was not in vain but it did not bear the expected fruit and I think one simple reason is that many people were more concerned with reflecting on what happened than on how it happens how it was possible let me elaborate on that in our European collective memory of war and dictatorship we tend to divide the attitude of people into three categories the perpetrators the victims and the heroes and in doing so we forget the category which is absolutely central which I call the mid-lover those who follow the current they are not directly involved in crimes but through the indifference the conformism and the cowardice they create the necessary conditions for criminal regimes or criminal systems and this category in my opinion it's very important to acknowledge if you want to learn from history because under a criminal regime the majority of the population are mid-lover and this is the attitude that most of us are likely to adopt in the case of a defeat of our liberal democracies so reflecting about mid-lover too can help us in a way to send each one of us back to our present-day responsibilities and to in a way to help us become aware of the consequences of our own behavior as a citizen on social on on social political issues I think it is important to acknowledge that the populist today of course are not you cannot compare the situation today with the situation one center century ago but many populists and extremists use the same methods the same manipulation techniques than one century ago a and they are exploiting precisely this mechanism of mid-lover too of following the current you know and I think if we are aware that history doesn't repeat itself but these mechanisms social psychological mechanism which can make us become accomplice of a criminal regime that these are actually today also very much at work in Europe nevertheless I want to add a positive note because I think that the two recent crises have shown that Europeans have learned something from history and because I'm always over my five minutes I will just go straight to one of these examples which showed that Europeans have learned something from history and I think it is actually the Russian invasion of Ukraine of course we can criticize a lot about Europe but what we have seen is that on one side you have a leader which is actually totally incapable to come to terms with the past and this is Vladimir Putin he believes himself to be invested with a sacred mission of reviving an idealist tsarist Russian Empire flawless and he rewrites the past he embellishes the past in Putin's hands history is not only an instrument for glorifying national Russian identity but it is also a weapon of mass destruction and so he opened a door that we thought he had closed after World War two but this revival of a cake patterns clashes with the realities of the 21st century Europe and we've seen that the peoples of Europe who now know the taste of democracy including of course the Ukrainians are resisting so in a way that we have learned from the past that no ideology no nationalism no imperialism is worse sacrificing peace and freedom and that no past no matter how glorious is worth dying for so we've learned something from history but we don't know for how long so this is maybe something we will elaborate on further later thanks a lot Geraldine this was really interesting and also it gives really a shiver to us when when you say that in many countries radicals from the left and the right on the rise again just one comment about my own country maybe you've heard it we had the local elections in Salzburg famous for the festival the cultural festival and there in the city of Salzburg 20% of the people of the voters voted for a communist party can you imagine we also have a mayor in the second biggest country of Austria which is grads and there we have also a lady a communist mayor of course they try to distance themselves and say well we don't we are not Stalinists and we we are criticizing what happened during communism but still you find in the papers in the statutes you find some admiration for regimes in China in Vietnam and also in Cuba so also it wouldn't have been thinkable a few years ago but it is now of course some people think it's more of concern that right-wing parties are on the rise again again here in Austria we have one party which is in parliament and approaches about 30% of the votes which is rather high what never no one could believe that this party will rise again after the scandal you heard maybe of a former party chief when he was caught in the video in Ibiza where he wanted to to a fake Russian oligarch's knees he wanted to sell more or less positions and business in Austria and even sacrifice independent journalism but this is another story it just shows you know I mean the history shows how fast norms know moral norms can collapse and what was unthinkable you know a few years ago suddenly are accepted by society and the way this happens is depends on these social psychological mechanisms I was mentioning how some use total society inverts its moral values this is the very frightening part of it yeah true so last not least we have a distinguished guest from Ireland Barbara Walshie is the chairwoman of the Glenn Cree Center for peace and reconciliation and this is an important institute and she's working on the history of the of the whole Ireland and of course about the conflict which is still not really solved in Northern Ireland but also she was a peace envoy in the Israeli Palestinian conflict and she is also involved in in work on communities in conflict in the United States for instance and in Ireland where she explores the victims of sexual abuse and religious institutions and prisons in Ireland you know there were a lot of young people were victims of sexual violence by Catholic priests as you know so Barbara the floor is yours thank you very much I just want to correct you slightly I'm the former chair of the Glenn Cree Center for peace and reconciliation I was chair until last year so okay just to clarify that so we have spent a long time in Ireland remembering and remembering to forget and I suppose before I start about what it is that we've learned from all we've been through just for those of you that don't know much about Ireland it's an island it's on the periphery of Europe it has a population now of seven million five and a half million in the Republic of Ireland and one and a half million in the north of Ireland it was a colony of Britain up until 100 years ago this year we celebrated a hundred years since the Civil War when we fought each other which led to the partition of the island and the northern part of the island has been partitioned since most of you probably know there was a conflict in northern Ireland as a result of partition and the repression of particular groups of people particular Catholics within within that part of the island that led to a violent conflict that conflict came to an end in 1998 this year we celebrated at the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement which stopped the violence and currently we're dealing with the legacy of violence so we have a lot to say about victims and what it is that they need and what it is that they have said that they need it and to throw into the mix as well in 2016 the Britain decided to leave the European Union so basically the border between the European Union and the European Union was on the island of Ireland the part in the north which was British the part in the Republic we have been part of the European Union since the early 70s so our life in a way has been on the periphery of Europe our migration patterns have been to the UK have been to America have been to Australia to English-speaking countries the fact that we joined the European Union in a way was was really very good for us but aside from being good financially and support that we got from the European Union it also opened our eyes into another world and as part of the signing of the peace agreement in 1998 the European Union provided a bigger framework that enabled us to see past our difficulties that we had with our neighbor and to see the world in a bigger in a bigger in a much bigger frame so that's the context in a way that we have operated in also say from a political perspective the the one we have also for the past two years the both political parties who absolutely fought over the partition of the country for the last two years are in government together with the Greens so in some way this is a huge part of some kind of reconciliation between the different different perspectives that were fought violently in the Civil War a hundred years ago and then part of that in a way also kicked off kicked off the the conflict in Northern Ireland in the 70s so the Glencree centre for peace and reconciliation is in the mountains in Ireland and it was set up in 1974 by a woman called Uno Higgins O'Malley and her father was Minister for Justice in the first government after partition and he was assassinated on the street by people who were opposed to the partition at that time and her raison and the centre since that has been really the importance of dialogue of enabling people who hate each other have hurt each other at some level to come into the same room to be able to speak to each other to understand each other's relationships and to build relationships across divides now I can't say to you that that is an easy process but a lot of the work that was done over that time has been on the island to bring warring parties together and the other thing that was important was the role of the Catholic Church and other Protestant churches that spent time in a way bringing the violent wing of a paramilitary organization together with an organization that was more civilian and civil-focused which enabled that peace agreement to be signed in 1998 so we have a history of colonialism we have a history of Europe we have an innate resistance to oppression so our support so the country support will be the expression of course with Ukraine at the moment but also with the Palestinians and that's interesting because the south of Ireland would have a strong support for Palestinians and in the north of Ireland because of a Protestant evangelical background the support would be more for the Israelis on that side so it's it's so the stories and the narratives that have have created the conditions for us to live together on this island we have had to accommodate different narratives narratives that we didn't want to do or didn't want to have so maybe I'll stop there and maybe we can talk a bit later on about what we learned as a result of living in a very divided society thanks yes thank you Barbara for this first-hand talk from from this troubled island or still troubled island I was told that Geraldine Schwartz has some problems with her baby I think that's also the reason why she can't be with us here in person but maybe it's better to talk to Geraldine right now so that she might be able to leave us if it's necessary so Geraldine maybe you can talk to us again maybe about the topic if the if I suggest this as a question if right-wing or left-wing populism in Europe could kind of threaten the existence of the European Union could there be really a kind of crumbling down of European Union due to these extremists well as I said before I don't think we can compare the situation now with the situation in the 30s so the positive point is that first there is not nothing such totalitarianism the extremists are not that poor you know they are very much divided so there is nothing like a big ideology which is wrapping up all these parties in Europe and make them powerful together you know they are doomed to be divided in a way so this is the positive news and then again there is also in society compared to the 30s of course an awareness an awareness that these political parties can be dangerous that they can lead to war and to dictatorship and this is the results of in a way of learning a little bit from history in the 30s in my book I talked about my grandparents in Germany who were mid-lovers so people who followed the current and through their attitude consolidated the criminal regime in in these times my grandparents you know they didn't have chance to learn from history so what there was no precedent now there is a precedent so I believe that big part of the society is still very aware of that and are able of discernment but we should not be naive many citizens are too confident institutions and in their laws and the problem is that the stability of the democracy does not depend on the stability of institutions and laws under the Third Reich one important weapon of the Nazis to convince people was to make crime legal so you can use laws to make legal and I can see that one maybe of the dangers in Europe many citizens are very much confident institutions and the laws and I don't realize how far these can collapse because the democracy I think the stability of our moral norms and of democracy depends much more on unwritten rules on the capacity of exchanging of arguments of the other and this is a step-by-step thing under threat in in Europe and then what is important also in the democracy is the capacity of creating a collective project and also it is under threat because there is misunderstanding of the notion of freedom many citizens think that freedom is personal freedom so they have personal individual revendications and expect its own wishes to be realized if I made this is on the side of the because I mean the populist are dangerous but we know that we know how you know how they try to manipulate the people so this is on one side but we cannot really do anything on this side we cannot act on the populist themselves that will not change so what we can do is change our citizens this is why I answered by taking this point of view that we as citizens have to be aware of the power we have and to be cautious about our behaviors and the consequences it can have if I'm at me at is there any day do you see any danger from a country like Italy where we have a prime minister Georgia Meloni who comes from Fratelli Italia which is an open right wing party and they pray they're still praising Mussolini and only yesterday we have been to the shelter here in one of the shelters in Barcelona apparently Mussolini's and a lot of planes here with bomb and the city was bombed for years by Italian and also German war planes so I mean she's until now she is more or less more in the middle of the road and she is not that radical as many people have feared but what would happen if in France Mrs. Le Pen would would become president of the French Republic is there really no no no danger of you more or less than collapsing yes of course I mean if if France you know France is one of the founder of the European Union it is a very important partner of the European Union if France will become will be ruled by an extreme right leader I can I don't see how compatible this might be with the spirit of the European Union which was built on the idea of never again you know never again extremism never again intolerance never again discrimination while Marine Le Pen's program is based on discrimination you know she wants to to privilege the French the native French in the education system in the health system so I don't see how it would be compatible with the project of the European Union but it is difficult as you mentioned it is difficult to foresee because the Italian leader appeared to be more software than expected maybe Marine Le Pen will also once once in power change the attitude it is but it is very difficult to foresee I just the problem with Marine Le Pen is not only that she's an extremist it's also that I think she is not very capable in many fields I don't see her as a good diplomatic partner you know on the on the world Tribune I don't see her as a good economic partner on the world Tribune so there are many reasons why to be to be frightened but I think the what is important now is to try to find ways to educate people politically so that they can protect themselves from these kinds of populist parties you know and to shape their awareness I think this is this is the priority our priority now it should be our priority yeah Geraldine so you feel free if you have to to leave us we thank you a lot for your participation if you're still there maybe I will give you the floor again but we understand that of course your child has utmost importance so I would like now maybe of course this is the talk what I mentioned it is also the task of the European Union and I think that the European Union as far as today has underestimated the importance of creating a European memory in order to to to sharpen the awareness of the peoples of Europe towards what where they come from and what is the project they are encouraged to build together and I think this is one of the weaknesses of the European Union that it didn't as far as now didn't understand that without a common European memory it will be difficult to shape a common European democratic identity yeah but we celebrate the Schumann day on on May 9th so Schumann was already asking for this European memory and this never again never again a war between European nations so I think that we should read it again and I think the basis of the European Union is valid till till today and hopefully it will not be put into question not in an enforced way I mean the European Union should find another way and not an enforced commemoration the European Union try to enforce commemoration of the World War II and of the Holocaust especially in countries of Eastern Europe and it it failed so enforced commemoration doesn't bring the expected fruits it has we have to find new ways mm-hmm Geraldine thank you for for now all the best for for your child and I wanted to give the floor again to Olga now and maybe if you could elaborate a bit on is there anything's distinction between communism Stalinism and Nazism in your museum of totalitarian regimes is it a problem for you that or how can I understand your museum I haven't been there so far is a two distinct kind of exhibitions in your museum for the two totalitarian regimes no yes museum territory of terror in we've located in territory which was in the past part of a whiskey ghetto and one after second world territory of transported prison 25 one regime and and the next regime come to live and it's I think it's very important that we showing this continuum of evil also in Ukrainian territory because totalitarian regime or have one instrument but sometimes change the face yes change the face the logo tips and so on and I think from this perspective it's very important now to talk about experience of Ukraine in second world because I'm understand when I'm traveling in Europe that for Europe USSR is only Russia and nobody knows about Ukrainian experience and about destroying of territory of Ukraine dying of Ukraine people in second world and I think it's one of the mistake or from this loss less lesson of past yes and I think now we must more talk about this experience for Ukraine and also Russia said that she continue on Soviet that she is only one country general country for from US USSR yes and I think this Nazi regime communist regime and Putin regime it's one evil which continue and change the face and now we must understand these and if we want to live in peaceful world we need to create new this protocol of security and new protocol of energy yes because we like museum workers in Ukraine we try to use this protocol from I come yes from from experience after second world but it's not work in Ukraine now because we have every day bombing from the sky by rocket and rocket go to museum to see a threat a library and is a new challenge yes I'm talk also from my perspective like museum workers but also when you see every part of life it's is a question that old roots not work also now in on Russia is general yes and a lot of questions to the this concept of peace this concept not work and our speakers also colleagues say it about this new way about new this conception and collapse of all conception and we in Ukraine also think it about this because we understand that yes so I believe that victory coming in Ukraine will be victory in this war but we can't back to life before 24 February and before the 9 9 9 years in Ukraine because for me worse start nine years ago yes and for Ukraine and a lot of a lot of questions how to have to live in this new world when Russia continuing use this rocket and the Shahid and every day we have in telephone apps and see when rocket to come to Ukraine territory in all territory and is a new challenge and also I think that the rocket also can go to another country not only for Ukraine because we not no plan in putting putting plan yes and I think that the best idea for Europe is diversity but we but we need to know to create this new conception how to be together in this diversity yes thank you Olga yes I want I wanted to because you are Slovakia is a neighbor of Ukraine you have a common border so maybe you can elaborate on that also is there really if now a big party like smear of mr. Fiezzo threatens to stop help for the Ukraine so is the aid for Ukraine not so popular among the Slovak people and why is that so because you are so close to the conflict to the war okay thank you mr. German for a question but before I would like to add just one remark that came to my mind during your during your answer now a few years ago I read a book that was published by German foreign Amt Auswert against Amt in the I think in December 1939 where the German foreign ministry present its arguments towards okay thank you where the Germans pushed forward their arguments toward the world war against Poland and one why they were forced to invade Poland so to say and it reminded me very much of what Russia is saying now because Germany argumented that our Germans in Poland were terrorized by Polish they were displaced all over the country and throw back to the Germany and we have to save our German population in Poland that was basically what German is saying in 1939 it's really basically the same am I right what they are doing but to your question I just cannot avoid that as a historian you know to have the parallel Slovakia unfortunately is very divided society I would say and we we are also very divided when speaking about the aid to Ukraine in my opinion Slovakia was helping quite a lot we provided them arms we provided shelter for the people and job opportunities for the people and some help some benefit financial benefits when Ukrainian has tried to find living and so on we I guess helped in many ways but many people disagree with that and that's for me it's of course not understandable because we would also you know some 40 50 years ago or 60 years ago our ancestors you know escaped were escaping communist regime or in the 60s we were escaping and going to Austria when since you're an Austrian and they were living in a refugee scams supported by Austrian government and we should be I guess helpful to Austria for providing our people who decided to leave the country with the help so in my opinion it's a moral duty of all countries to behave in the same manner toward people who are really in need and want to live so but many my compatriots do not agree with it and instead fall as a victim to to the very vivid Russian propaganda that is disseminated mostly on on the social networks and there are still discussions but of course I cannot I'm not a fortune teller or whatever I cannot say what will happen after the elections in September and we have to hope and do our best you know to have our country continue to go on with the Euro-Atlantic orientation as it is now so I hope we will stick to stick to these values and keep on Mr. Muto as you are a specialist in Polish German reconciliation process I would like to ask you a question which is up to date because I think Poland the Polish government still asks for restitution from Germany not only Poland also Greece can financial help restitute financial restitution can it really heal wounds or would it create more or new problems it's a very big discussion about this this issue because we have a let's say legal framework as far as you know the second world war didn't end with the peace treaty and the Poland was rather the victim not knocked not a country who which which can be a winner of the war but of course it's maybe not a very good moment for this kind of postulates I'm also very skeptical about this and if it depends on me I would rather provide this kind of discussion not on the forum of mass media but but maybe between proper services so this is not the but I do I think that it is not the the important issue in the context of what we are talking about the real hot potato the real important issue is the war in Ukraine and we should focus on on on this and in of course we can consider the lessons of history in the context of Polish German reconciliation because there is a very futuristic question about the reconciliation between nations divided the war it's it's the future that the the real lessons for from the Polish German reconciliation is that if the reconciliation process can be follow-up you have to have two things at least the conflict has to be finished and the the evil has to be named somehow and these are the basic conditions for the future reconciliation in Europe in the white context of of East and so the one condition is the the end of the war with the victory of the Ukraine the second condition is the name of the evil so the I don't know international trial for for for Russian leaders is it possible I don't know I think also that if we are talking about lessons from history there was one lesson what which wasn't taken by Europe so the communism crimes wasn't condemned properly in the international space after the collapse of communist system in Eastern Europe Central Eastern Europe so there was any international trial against high-ranked officer or communist leader responsible for example for mass murders and there are there are some trials in Poland for example not very successful the first trial in Czech Republic now started in April against Bratislav Weiner 92 years old former Interior Ministry but we didn't have in the international space the the proper condom we didn't condemn the communism systems and and atrocities and I think that it is one of course one of the reasons of nowadays war because the leader of the Russia is former KGB colonel and our leaders made business with him for many many years so this is this is the lesson which was not taken so this is the complex of the of the issues I think that we should focus on Ukraine on the east of the Europe the solidarity and resistance should be shared with with our friends from there Oh Mike Barbara just on reconciliation processes I agree that the war needs to be over the war needs to be over and far far a decent reconciliation process to be gone the history of truth and reconciliation commissions and and have been mixed so and indeed international tribunals have been mixed but I think that it's important for people who have been hurt in a particular conflict or who have lost that they are able to have a space to be able to tell their story about what happened to them so in dealing with any victims whether they're victims of sexual abuse clerical sexual abuse of war of anything the important thing is first of all that there is a public statement from somebody in power and authority that this has happened and an acknowledgement of the suffering that has happened for people and then then that people are able to tell their story what happened in their community in their place what happened and sometimes those narratives are different as we have found from our experience but it it breaks the silence that people have around the trauma that a lot of time the times people are carrying as a result of what happened so breaking the silence for themselves acknowledgement of what it is that have happened if that can happen as state level that's where it's important to happen but sometimes there are political concerns around that and wrangling and sometimes that doesn't happen within all of that reparations restitution's take many different forms and at some level in consultation with victims that's important what matters to people what matters to people now what would make this better for you and for your life and sometimes it's not just money sometimes it's sometimes it's housing sometimes it's just having your story recorded that people understand what you went through in all of that so this is the legacy of conflict you know and when the Ukraine war is over soon we hope there will be that legacy again of what people have suffered and the losses and a whole generation that probably probably have have lost their lives in the defense of what's important to them and I was struck by what Antonio Guartier said the UN General Secretary the other day he said there will be no peace there is no there is no desire for peace it's all about winning the Russians the Ukrainians it's all about winning and I suppose what we have discovered on the island that I live on people say until people are hurt on both sides we call it the hurting stalemate then at some level then maybe people are ready to talk peace yeah thank you I think we are we are ready for questions from from from the public but maybe just one remark I see here and one I just wanted to mention that in the last moment more or less in the last years it was the Austin government who decided to give a kind of compensation to the forced laborers who worked in the Second World War during the Second World War in Austria mainly people from Poland but also from the Soviet Union Italy etc and that we really reached maybe the the last living persons and their relatives and also in Germany I talked yesterday to a colleague there is also there was also a German payment to to these forced laborers also late but better late than never okay I have the first you and then the red and then in the behind the micro is coming thank you Mr. Shantosky very much I also want to mention the beginning you inspired me as well when asking this question on observation better material from the Czech embassy in Madrid thank you very much for all the participant and inspirational contributions I would like to mention that of the four last presidencies of the European Union French Czech presidency Swedish presidency are now with great responsibility the Spanish presidency are taking place in a very unprecedented politically and important in geopolitical geopolitical times we have witnessed that there has been forged unprecedented unity and solidarity with Ukraine and it didn't stay only with words but it's then I was I think where the crucial moments in the last couple of months also a contribution of Spain during the NATO summit I would like to mention that granting the candidacy statute to Ukraine and Moldova is unprecedented have been created the the greater frame for the psychological and territorial concept of Europe now the task is of course consolidating consolidating it also the enlargement of NATO has been an important step so we have this this mark this this reference this mark of reference and of course the remembrance and common memory is one of the cornerstone of these inner spiritual consolidation but what I think and what I felt from the contribution yesterday that before yesterday that even though the suffering has its own part own personal memory there is definitely a common a common desire I was very grateful for the word hope that has been mentioned by Mr. Marek Muto that I think is was even in the pain in the art we could have always seen the flicker of hope on the political comments that we heard I think is also important to be ready for the conflicts inner conflicts that are possibly ahead of us it's no mystery that to end all maybe from many think tanks comes the analysis that many societies are so called 5050 societies and maybe the need for the deeper dialogue deeper understanding deeper listening is is necessary what I want to mention and maybe this will lead me to the question that even if we take where how to build the consensus we have the important notion that we think that are consensual consensual like democracy pluralism common values common roots even common spiritual the dimension protection of climate or even the anthropological concept about the vocation of a human being it seems to us that it's consensual but we have to be very aware that in each of this notion even freedom what does it mean freedom each of these notions can generate very conflicting interpretation an idea matia mr. matia really mentioned a caution and I would like to ask what you think when we have all these notions that itself generate the conflict and can generate the social and political motivation political mobilization for the future where can we find this common ground I felt that remembrance and memory we have also almost here I felt the consensus but really consensus and this consensus of hope will get us through the coming decades that would be my question thank you very much thank you who wants to answer this question by the Jack the plummet okay I'm trying to do reflection one story from my professional life we cooperate with old generation which my grandmother grandfather yes and when this old generation come to museum one woman said me that you young generation have a lot of freedom you can think in doing traveling have reflection talking about all and we don't have this freedom because we was occupied by us or sir and we was repressed and we scared now we have independent Ukraine but we feel scared to be freedom and I think it's very important to understand that freedom is values and maybe not a country which don't have communist regime don't understand how when you don't have freedom and I think freedom understanding this is one of the part of this new conception and the next step for Europe and for all and freedom it's very important to be human and not lost your human face thank you man with the red polo yes I'm Michael Zantowski and I'm also check I apologize it looks like the checks are trying to monopolize this meeting but it was not prearranged well I would like to follow up on what the Marek Muto said we are speaking about the lessons of the 20th century history and the ethical consequences and I think one of the core lessons of the 20th century that is very relevant here is the lesson of Munich 1938 it's the lesson of what happens when you appease a bully bully when you when you are hoping that it will not come to us that you are going to avoid a conflict by by not confronting a bully when when you need to and the price of that lesson is more than 50 million European lives and it's something that I don't believe we should ever be forgetting and and bringing it to the current situation it means that what is happens to the east of our borders in Ukraine is not a question of war between two people one of whom are fighting for something the other are fighting for something else it's a war of aggression it's a certified war of aggression under UN General Assembly resolution in which 141 countries condemn it the Russian attack as an act of aggression and an act of aggression is a crime against peace under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal and should be taken seriously and such and I'm saying that because I think the countries in central and eastern Europe and some other countries are well aware of this and we are trying to support the Ukrainians not just through humanitarian measures but also through material support and through military support and and the brand of this is on Poland the Czech Republic Slovakia the Nordic countries United Kingdom the United States and to an extent Germany and France yeah and I haven't had spoken here about such support or such obligation coming from some other governments including and I'm sorry to say that the Austrian and the Irish government which are very generous in the humanitarian aid to the Ukrainians and I admire it but I think it's time that this lesson of solidarity and mutual obligation is taken seriously by all European nations thank you thank you so much in the last row and then the lady first yeah and please a shorter questions if possible and tell who thank you very much to whom you address the question if there is a question I would like to remember that the most aggressors as Putin are in the same time dictators and we have with Putin a dictator who is oppressing the Russian society and in the same time and aggression against Ukraine and we can hope that it's his last and not with Moldova or others have the next but that's why I think we need solidarity together with Ukraine as mentioned but in the same time we need that solidarity with the Russians oppressed by Putin for instance and there are a lot of democratic Russians we have it in Germany for instance and I experienced last time when we had the anniversary of the starting of the full war against in the February that we had campaign and demonstration and there was a discussion if Russians should speak or not representative of memorial and there was a refusion that Irina Shavakova from memorial should speak and I would like to raise that issue I think it would be good to have democratic Russians with us and it should be good to invite them for instance for that kind of events that we have it here and I want to ask you if you agree with me thank you very much anyone among us who wants to talk Barbara so my response to that would be I think that we can talk to our friends but we need to talk to our enemies and I think it's important that back channel sources of honest brokers are informal diplomacy and lines of communication are there that enable people in some way to be able to come to some kind of a resolution in this conflict that's my opinion short answer from a journalist I was in contact with the commissioner you over from the Czech Republic again and she made a proposal that something like radio free Europe should be reorganized maybe on the Internet yeah the problem is will it reach really the Russian public Russian media is more or less everything they are under control of the government and how do you reach the Russians it's very difficult but we should make an effort and I think she thinks that the many exile journalists from Russia could work for this platform whatever it won't be a radio because they could jam it etc in the Internet it's maybe the best better thing but would the Russians really believe what they if they look on this platform or would they say I stress propaganda that's that's a problem we have the lady the first lady here and you my final pieces on historical memory and political legitimation and regarding what has been taught here I believe that there's two different motivations for talking about the past in the present on the one hand there's the restorative purpose which would mean like trying to build solidarity and trying to shape a better present by remembering the past but on the other hand and maybe this is what Putin is doing right now there's this instrumentalist use of the past like a selective remembrance of just particular events that go aligned with their national and foreign policy which may raise more doubts and concerns about what use are we making of this past so my question is what are the ethical consequences of this instrumentalized use of the past for certain and particular political motivations besides restorative purposes or healing wounds thank you thank you the question is very important and the answer is let's say we can build a very long answer but ethical consequences of using history in the instrumental way are obvious this is the war this is the lack of freedom this is the let's say division of societies so usually it takes to this kind of end as a ethical consequence what is important I think that we so we all together we are dealing with the past and for us is I think it's obvious that dealing with the past we have to refer to the truth and to write proportions and this is the basic let's say rule which which which can let us to to make this distinction between good dealing with the past and instrumentalization so on the truth and and the proportion I had also if I may the additional remark to what what previous speaker said about the Russians who who are democratic ones it's very difficult for me to imagine democratic Russia but I still believe somehow maybe maybe in the future we'll see but for sure there are people who are very brave there because in this in this oppression it's very difficult to act and what is what was significant that two months before the war putting erased Memorial Association it was introduction in my opinion it was it was an intro introduction to the war so the the truth is the first victim of the war Memorial Association was always the the group of people who wanted to to deal with the truth the truth the historical truth so they had to erase the memorial before the war it was I think it was very important and platform of European memory and conscience that the organization which I laid granted to Memorial Association annual prize last year and I think yes that these people from the Memorial Circle it's it is worth to to to have them with with us on conferences like that yeah we're coming to the another man here yeah the gray hair yeah and then true true and then maybe we have to stop my my name is told to ma I'm from Prague so anyway I hope in close future Czech Republic will be the full member of the NRS so we will be more visible anyway but I would have I would have a question on Mr Chairman if I may you seem to be very much concerned about the future policy of Slovakia towards Ukraine I think it's also got according opinion for something like 20 percent of support in Slovakia so the things are not that clear yet but my question would be about Austria and its neutral position so as we know the other traditional neutral European countries Finland and Sweden completely change their policy towards Russia as a consequence of Russian aggression against Ukraine so what is the discussion in Austria about that and how we can expect from Austria yes very good question we journalists we criticized the Austrian government for not being really on on they even didn't allow a discussion about our future defense policy yeah some people asked for it but our chancellor quickly said neutrality will stay we can talk about it but neutrality will stay more or less forever even he said that after Sweden and Finland applied for NATO membership so in Austria a NATO membership is more or less out of the question and it wouldn't win a referendum that's that's for sure has many historic reasons also and it was we lived through it through the second republic and but there should be at least a debate we should talk about it I wrote a comment in the Wiener Zeitung the oldest newspaper in the world will be closed by the government by the way in June yes unfortunately 320 years old newspaper still being published only Hitler stopped it and now our government is stopping it again so Austria is within countries the last neutral countries like Ireland and I think Malta I think Cyprus and so and so we have Austria supports Ukraine we have a lot of Ukrainian refugees in Austria I think it's a some some almost 100 000 or so and we give we give support in humanitarian field but we don't give any any military but the problem is we signed this is interesting there is a kind of military coalition or a kind of assistance clause mutual assistance clause in the European Union treaty so Austria in a way we said okay we will support it but we will stay neutral but there is already such a thing meaning if a country if you country god forbids will be attacked by Russia even not NATO will have to respond but also the European Union so this is a tricky a tricky field but I hope that at least some kind of debate will will start in in in Austria let's hope for it we have now this man yes and then lady yes very good now to first the man yeah thank you um my name is Oriel Lopez I work here on thank you um well it's um take it as a question I'll take it as a comment for reflection but these days we have been attending very very interesting debates sorry no I was saying that these days we have been attending super interesting debates addressing different topics victims the role of heroes resistance against fascist regimes solidarity in front of communist regimes but to me all these topics have been maybe addressed from a nationwide point of view nations against local able against foreign able so in the frame of this panel connecting past and present and in the frame of this conference supported by the EU which fundamental rights are based on solidarity on respect to multilingual societies multicultural societies multi-religious societies can we talk about solidarity if we skip and the represented social groups can we talk about solidarity if we miss women's role in history lgbti role on on on past repression migrants role today and during colonial times so are our museums our conferences our platforms our memory policies dealing enough addressing enough giving room to these uh and the represented social groups well if you take it as a question you can answer or if not just with us thank you I think that this discussion was so let's say 20th century style because contemporary war is a very 20th century style so we focused on Ukraine and it's it's worth it's it's neat but of course there was one I think the the first speaker in the discussion uh rise this plot of our interests like the solidarity so the common sense of Europe common sense of common values which we share but which we interpretate in the very different ways and again I think that um also the fate of the victims of totalitarian regimes the fate of individuals is something which can be common for for everybody in Europe and gives the voice also to the people who are not nation leaders who are not let's say actors of the of the history but the people who just suffered and that's why I think that it is also the the answer for the for the question how to build the solidarity inside the Europe the common sense of Europe to build this memorial in Brussels I think we have a final question from a lady here with the red hairband yes please yes hello my name is Nora Bushma from Germany and not Czech Republic not Czech exactly not yet um and since you are speaking about solidarity of the past and for the present and also Geraldine Schwartz was mentioning shaping awareness and you Mr Ladonsky your your journalist so my question is how do you stand uh to Julian Assange uh prison in today do you have you have this oh I didn't hear what was uh Julian Assange yes yes and that he's now present in Belmarsh he was yeah I know seven years in the Bolivian embassy I know I know no but is there anything new that will he be extradited to the United States I don't know but I wanted to know how you stand okay as a journalist as a colleague yes yeah uh quick question Julian Assange of course we also my association AEJ we supported him and we asked for his for his freedom and and and he should not be extradited to the United States where he faces I don't know 150 years of prison so unfortunately the the British government did not decide and and apparently he will maybe he will be extradited there are some colleagues I have to confess who have some reservations about him not me personally but I know some colleagues who said is he really a journalist I mean he he was just published he was publishing documents from the U.S. Army which was important yeah somebody had to to reveal it and he did it with the help of of a miss missus and missus Manning now and and I think it was good that he that he published all these terrible data from the Iraq war etc it was maybe not so good that he revealed data about people helping the United States in Afghanistan in other countries uh because these people would face uh more or less death penalty or Iran so this was very maybe he should have not uh he shouldn't have blackened the names at least uh but uh he he he should be supported and and he should he should not go to jail that is my point I think after almost two hours you will be a little bit exhausted I think it doesn't make sense to wrap up the the debate as long as there's anyone who wants to speak to have the last word if if not yes I wanted to say the last thank you for support Ukraine thank you for solidarity with Ukraine but war not over and we have a lot of work together to stop war thank you can I just say a last word as well just that I think we can take democracy for granted that I think sometimes democracy is not seen as the hero's journey and that I think if we don't mind it care for it operate it and promote it it's easy for other narratives to undermine it last remark from my person I wanted to thank for being having been invited I wanted to thank the organizers of these terrific interesting symposium for three days and last but not least I wanted to thank the interpreters here who did also a terrific job all the three days thanks a lot and now the floor goes to President Mr Rogulski you have the closing remarks now thank you