 the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're staying in Hawaii and taking a closer look at what appears to be a violent crime trend, including a lot of gun violence and murders that are hammering our home. My guests are two very knowledgeable and experienced criminal law professionals in the state of Hawaii. Steve Aum is the prosecuting attorney for the city and county of Honolulu and Randall Lee is a retired circuit court judge who is an assistant professor in criminal justice at Hawaii Pacific University. Welcome to you both. Aloha. It's good to see you. I really appreciate you giving us your time for this. What I think is a really important topic and there's so much going on in the news but there's been a lot of news stories about an upsurge in violent criminal activity in Hawaii, especially in Honolulu, especially involving guns. And I grew up in Honolulu and all of this, it's actually very depressing news about fatal shootings, home invasions, stabbings, armed robberies and other criminal activities. It seems so contrary to our lifestyle here in Hawaii. So I wanted to ask you gentlemen, please, you know, give us some insight. Are those reports accurate? And if so, what's caused the recent rise in violent criminal activity, especially with the use of guns in the commission of crimes in Honolulu? I'll start alphabetically from my last name, Steve. Steve, please. Well, there's no question that the last couple of weeks have seen, you know, a whole bunch of those cases, exactly what you're saying. Young people with guns, young people allegedly robbing or killing other young people. In many cases, people they know, which is, you know, really disturbing. But before we talk about those in particular, I think it's good to take a step back. You know, I'm a big believer in criminal justice policy based on data, research, not on anecdote or gut feeling or hearsay or we've always done it this way. And in Hawaii, really the last 25 years have seen a marked reduction in crime. And it's hard to think of that when we see these horrendous cases that are appearing on the news. But Paul Perone at the Attorney General's office, they do these crime reports. And it really shows, you know, for the last 25 years, things have really gone down. Now, the last couple of years are really, with COVID, it's really hard to draw any conclusions. And so the question is, is this showing an upward trend, or is it a, I don't know, a blip on the screen overall, a horrendous blip, but a blip never the, or, you know, a spate of killings that hopefully will end. And then it'll go back to the downward trajectory, because you mentioned murder. And I looked at the, and one of the challenges we face is there's always a delay in getting statistics. So the HPD website has their, you know, their annual report. And, and that's, you know, where this comes up, well, the latest they have for that is 2020. So they've looked, you know, and in there, they looked at like violent crime for the past five years. So for murder, there were 16 murders in 2016, 32 murders in 2017, then 24, 24, and then last year it was 19. And so the numbers this year would seem to kind of fit into that, that what we're seeing so far. But both the total number of property crimes dropped from 32,900. So about 33,000 in 2016 to 27,400 in 2020. So we don't know what 2021 looked like. It may still be kind of depressed because of COVID. You know, stores aren't open, you're not going to have as much shoplifting. If, if people are at home, you're probably not going to have as many burglaries. But if you do have them, they may end up being home invasions or something like that. So, you know, it'll be, we've all got our fingers crossed that this is a spate of violent incidents and shootings and murders, and that things will calm down. We just will have to wait to see. Randall Lee, what's your thoughts? And I agree with Steve. I mean, the, the fortunate thing is, I, you know, historically, Hawaii has always been on the low end on, on crime rates. So we, we've actually been on the safer end. In, in, in my opinion, I think the pandemic has actually put a monkey wrench on the situation. And I hope it's, it's just a blimp on the radar. And when I say the pandemic, it put a monkey wrench on the system, it's, you have to look at the situation. With the pandemic, there were people were shut down and people were facing economic hardships, educational hardships with their kids, etc. And I think a lot of it, you saw some vented frustration. And with this vented frustration, we saw an increase in domestic violence, child abuse, etc. Okay, I think a lot of it is people are frustrated. And I think a lot of times the pandemic has, has caused, like I said, a monkey wrench. In addition to that, you also see a situation where you see violence in the stores, when people have been facing mandates, violence, not only in the stores, but the airplanes. You, you, you also combine that with the media's demeaning of the police department on the mainland. And, and as a result, we're seeing a shortage of police, police officers. And, and because of that, I think you see a common effect. You don't have much officers on the street. You have people getting frustrated, especially with economic situations. People are looking for perhaps gateway crimes to, to make ends meet that we see an increase in gambling. Hopefully we don't see an increase in, in drugs. But I think that's part of it. I was shocked when you see young men, 18, 19 year old, using a firearm on a crowded Waikiki street. That was kind of disturbing for me, that they would be using firearms blatantly in a public area. So I think part of the problem has been the, the pandemic, cases that the police may have stalled in the court system. The courts were shut down for two years. As a result, nothing's happened. We, we don't hold people accountable for those two years. And as a result, I think this is a blimp. I hope it is a blimp on the radar, but it's, it still should be troubling. And I think the, you know, in terms of criminal justice, we should always take a proactive approach and to anticipate the worst. Okay. And one, one thing I wanted to ask this blip, I hope it's a blimp like we are talking about. I guess, you know, it's hard to predict the future, but is this happening statewide and or just on a Wahoo or just in Honolulu? What, what do you folks feel or know about that, Steve? You know, what we're just seeing from news reports is there are things that are happening around the island. It's just, we have 70% of the population here. So we're going to have more here. But, but I have to tell you, it may be because, as Randy says, people are cooped up, they're getting out, all sorts of stuff are happening. But when I read a story this morning about Florida officials fighting back against rowdy spring breakers, it's more serious than that. In this Panama City Beach, Florida, they confiscated 75 guns over the weekend and arrested 161 people. They think they're a little more criminal, like at least a third of them were from Alabama. And so they're trying to wrap their heads. I mean, it's not just the drunk college students, you know, getting in fights or stuff. It's, it's like criminal activities with guns. And, and, and there have been a number of, you know, this whole crime drop in the last 25 years was around the country. But there have, in the last couple of years, a lot of big cities have had spikes in violent crime, spikes in murders. And the cities are different. So it's hard to get a, a grasp on what it is. You know, what's the cause of it? Because you look at what what happens in Chicago. And it is a nightmare there with the number of shootings and the number of killings. It makes our problems pale in comparison. And we never, you know, want to be like that. As, as Randy said, we are always in the bottom 10 nationally for violent crime. We're using the top five for property crime. But, but, and if I had to pick one, that's certainly rather be higher in property than violent. But it's still, it still causes heartache to people. It still causes real problems. Violent, I mean, property crime as well as violent crime. And, and Randall, you, you've been previously indicated in news reports that there's a trend that people are resorting to the use of guns. And you both talked about guns, Randall, I mean, what, where are they getting the guns? And, and you know, most of these guns, not the legitimate registered guns. These are guns that are either being shipped in, carried in, mailed in, et cetera. So these, you're actually talking about the black market type of guns, I think. But when I talk about the trend, generally, or historically, we've seen crime problems move from the East Coast to the West Coast and eventually to Hawaii. And the fortunate thing about being in Hawaii, we had, we, our law enforcement has a heads, heads up. We can see what's coming. Okay. I went to Mongolia to help their law enforcement university. And their biggest problem was fentanyl. And that China is trying to route fentanyl through the southern border to the United States. Okay. Eventually, you're going to see fentanyl coming here. So when I say there was a trend, there is a trend. I see a trend that's coming here with regards to the use of violence. And the reason I say that is because of our historical situation, but you also see situations where guns are used blatantly on the streets. And obviously, this is an isolated, the two cases that I'm talking about was the one in Tantalus and the one on Waikiki in Waikiki. But nevertheless, it's, it was a kind of a blatant type of shooting. You see this disregard for police authority. You see that on the mainland, and now you're seeing it here. Who would ever think that someone who's questioned by the authorities, law enforcement authorities would turn and attack the police? I mean, growing up in Hawaii, you've never thought about that. In my 25 years as a prosecutor, I've never seen a situation where someone would attack the police with a machete or a knife or a weapon. And so you're seeing these kinds of trends that are coming in. And that's why I say that. I see those kinds of things. And we've been basically following the mainland trends in terms of addressing stuff. For example, we've released inmates because of the COVID. We've released inmates purely because of numbers. But we don't give these inmates the tools to address their anger or their drug problems or their survival, such as housing or financial support. So what are these people going to do? They're going to resort to criminal activity because it's a survival of the fittest. The gun crimes are not being committed by the people that are standing in line at HPD to register weapons and go through that. They're not doing it. But we do encourage people to make sure they have their guns locked up at home. A gun safe is ideal to keep them away from other people in the house for one. So some despondent person doesn't have a gun handy and can use it to commit suicide or so it doesn't get stolen in a burglary because burglars love to steal weapons if they can. It's not the honest folks that are registered that are going out and using it in crime. That's not where this is coming from. Randall said that a lot of the this is coming from outside, too. In other words, there's an outside influence of drugs and just things that are happening on the mainland that have influenced some of the activity and reactions. I wanted to know, are there gang related things going on here, Steve? Well, I can tell you we used to have tremendous problems with organized crime here. When you had Ronnie Ching, when you had Henry Huey Huey back in the 70s and 80s, in 1970, Senator Kuriyama was killed and shot to death in his garage. Ronnie Ching was involved in that. He admitted to other things. He had a case where he went on the sidewalk with an AK-47 to the, I think it was called the Brass Door, something bar, and he shot some guy 10 times with this AK-47. Then he's out in the street walking back to his Chateau Blue apartment by Alamo on a center. He and some other cohorts buried Arthur Baker alive out on the beach. There really was a lot of really violent criminal activity between gangs going on back then. Tom Brady, who's my first deputy, did a case at the Polygolf course where these two gangs were fighting each other for control of who would provide security to illegal gambling. In a way, it's never gone away, but in many ways, that stuff is more peaceful now. I think because drugs have become such a huge part of a money-making process, back then those gangs could try to control the drug traffic. We get most of our meth from the West Coast now, and that democratized, for want of a better word, a lot of criminal organizations because there's so much money to be made in drugs now. There's less violence between gangs now than there was like in the 70s and 80s. That's a good thing because people were getting shot, they were getting killed, the horrible things were happening back then. Yeah, that's when I started practicing law. Some of my first cases involved those type of matters. Do you have any comment on that? Mark, I agree with Steve, but we need to take a proactive approach and be careful about the gateway crimes. We've seen an increase in gambling and drugs has always been a problem here. I think if we focus solely on the violent crimes and not address also the gateway crimes that can lead to violence, I think that may cause a problem. I agree with Steve. We don't have the sophisticated organized type crimes, the exception would be the risky case obviously, but I think a lot of times it's maybe loose organizations, two or three people, not a major army. And there are game rooms all over the island that cause huge problems and criminal activity and HPD bust them regularly, and we've tried to do a nuisance abatement and Randy's right, you've got to be tried to be proactive in this and disrupt stuff as much as you can. And I want to talk about that proactive a little bit more. One thing that I've seen is a lot of these shooters with guns are young people, 19 years old, and the victims are 18 or 20. As a parent, I can't imagine how hard this would be. Are there proactive things that parents can do? Gentlemen, I mean... The pandemic has caused a major problem. A lot of times both parents have to work two or three jobs just to make it meet. And when the kids aren't even in school because of distance learning, no one's watching them. As a result, I think a lot of times they have to fend for themselves and they get into peers that get into trouble. I think one of the solution is parents need to keep a closer look in terms of what their kids are doing. A lot of times these kids are out late at night. I mean, I wonder what the parents are thinking. Two, three o'clock in the morning, they should be home. I mean, things like that. I think my advice for parents is as much as possible. I know it's hard, but you've got to stay on top of your kids in terms of what they're doing, who their friends are, keep them active as much as possible. I agree completely. And it's easier said than done. As Randy said, the parents may be working so they may have the older kids watching the younger kids, which is not the best thing. And that can happen during school days as well. But parents do have a big impact on their kids, even though it doesn't seem like it sometimes. But being involved in their kids' lives as much as possible, finding out what they're doing is because it bothered all of us. So we're going to be working with HPD on these recent cases just to try to answer those questions, find out where did the guns come from? And why are they doing it? Because the allegations are in a couple of those cases that they knew each other. And so they were going to get identified. And as Randy said, the one in Waikiki is a crowded area with folks around and just either carrying a gun, not knowing what you're going to run into or knowing the person was there, those are all questions that have to be answered. But it is kind of scary when you have 19-year-olds with weapons and then allegedly involved with people they know where they're going to get seen. It's they're going to get identified. That is really strange. But that shows how bold these offenders are. I mean, it boggles your mind, but it happens. Yeah, and it kind of seems like they don't care. And they're just, they're in such a state of mind. Now, Steve, you've indicated, and I want to kind of follow up on this, that the Honolulu Prosecutor's Office will be working hard to combat this recent upsurge in criminal activity. What is you and will the Prosecutor's Office be doing? Well, first and foremost, it's holding people accountable for whatever criminal activity they take place. And the person committing the crime is the one responsible. It's not their upbringing. It's not the parents. It's whoever committed the crime should be held responsible. We should look at those other societal issues as well, but not get away from the fact that if somebody commits a crime, they are responsible for it. And so the very basic thing we're going to do is make sure we work with HPD, we investigate the cases, we hold people accountable. But we also do want to try to look at where did the guns come from. Is there a particular source? I mean, we have really strict gun control laws in Hawaii. And I think it's always been a good thing that somebody can't drive into Hawaii with a trunk full of guns, open it up and just sell them to people. I mean, that happens all over the mainland, where you can have one place like Chicago with very strict laws, but it's surrounded by states that are not that way. So trying to control things that way is extremely difficult. We're one of the few places, maybe the only place in the United States, where the strict gun control laws seem to seem to be helpful from that effect. And if people commit a crime with a gun, they should be going to prison. And we will try to, some of the things are mandatory, the judges will have to send them. In other cases, we'll just try to advocate for judges holding people accountable and sending them to prison if they're using a gun in a crime. Mark, if there's a will, there's a way. Someone's going to get one. But the burden shouldn't just also be on the prosecutor's office and the police. We need the communities involved. I think we've gone away from community policing, neighborhood watch kind of situations. And I think if the community gets involved and be the eyes and ears, it can help us too. We put a lot of pressure, the burden is on the prosecutor's office or the police, but it's a partnership and the community has to help us too. Yeah. And we've talked a lot, I mean, you've mentioned the fentanyl and outside influences. And we've talked about COVID and how that may affect people's mental states. What else? What else? What else can be done, Steve? Any other thoughts? Well, we're trying to do the weed and seed strategy in Chinatown again with one difference, because when we did it the first time 27 years ago, crime was much more prevalent in Chinatown. I remember going to eat lunch and looking out the window and seeing guys selling drugs to each other on the sidewalk. That generally doesn't happen now. But when we first did that, there were 10,000 arrests the first year in Chinatown and Cali Palama. I mean, it was really out of control. On the other hand, the homeless problem was much less than it is now. So one of the things that our office has been working with the public defenders and the treatment programs and the Department of Health is a bunch of homeless folks, chronically homeless, people sleeping on the sidewalk in Chinatown, have been arrested for drug possession. We're getting the whole system organized so they can get an assessment and then into a treatment program. Because I am convinced almost 100% of the folks that are chronically homeless have a mental health and or drug and alcohol problem. And unless we help them deal with those underlying issues, they're never going to get off the street and stay off the street. So Chinatown already looks a lot better. River Street. We got a great letter from Bishop Silva talking about our Lady of Peace Cathedral. People can now go to worship there and not get harassed and not be given a hard time. Because Fort Street Mall and Union Mall are now part of the weed and seed site in Chinatown. But that involves, as Randy says, the community, people working together, reporting things if they see it, doing community activities. Because if you have people out and about doing things, the criminals aren't going to be operating. And if people see something, they'll call 911 and expect and get a response. You got to make the environment not attractive to criminal activity. And if we can do that, I think we can at least try and stem the tide. I'd like to say that. But Steve's right. I think a lot of the underlying problems are mental health, drugs. And when we talk about mental health, it could be just anger management. I mean, something like that. And unless we get a handle on that and try and contain the problem, it's just going to be a revolving door, if not. One of the things we're trying to do in Waikiki, well, all over, but in Waikiki in particular, is there are some people that commit thefts every day of the week there. And depending, if they have a history of doing this, we can charge them with a felony. Because most of these thefts are going to be petty misdemeanors. This one guy we charged recently had 161 convictions and almost all for petty thefts, but almost all of them involving alcohol. He'd go into an ABC store and steal like $17 worth of vodka. And then he'd go back and do it the next day. And the stores don't want to fight with people, but they know this person. So we charged him with a felony. So he's at OCCC now on bail that he can't make. And what we're hoping to do is get that guy into treatment because he obviously has a horrendous alcohol problem. And that's got to get dealt with. There may be other people that are doing a lot of crime that are violent. We may ask them to go to prison, to go to Halawa, just to give the community a break from them. But we're trying to do what's called a habitual property offender is identifying a number of those folks who are raising all of our prices by stealing stuff and then individualizing it. Some may have a drug problem and alcohol problem. Others just may make their living as a career criminal that way. But the residents and the businesses deserve a break. So we're working with HPD. We're working with the community groups to try to identify those folks and in some case, bring felony charges against them because they're not getting any consequences for the petty misdemeanors. It's always credit for time served. One day, two days, three days, 161 times. Well, gentlemen, we have just a couple minutes left. I'd like to give you each an opportunity just to take a look at where we're going and your thoughts. Steve, let you go first. Okay, thank you. Well, I really would encourage people to support the police but hold them accountable. Just like if a deputy prosecutor or the prosecutor commits a crime, they should be held accountable as well. But I would encourage them to get involved in their community, as Randy said, get involved in a neighborhood watch. And if you see something, be willing to testify to it. But get involved with your community. When the weed and seed program, the weed part went away after I had left as U.S. attorney, but they kept the seed going, Waipahu and Ewa of a beach. We're going to be bringing the weed part back to those communities. But it's getting the community involved and being willing to be part of a neighborhood watch or report something or just be supportive. We're lucky in Hawaii that most people either know somebody at HPD or relate it to somebody at HPD. So the police are still held in good stead. And we'd like that to continue because that's good for all of us to have a good relationship with our police department. Randall? You know, Hawaii is such a special place. I mean, it's unique. Not only it's beauty and it's weather, but it's a beautiful place. And criminals got to realize when they commit crime in Hawaii, they ruin it for Hawaii. They don't just ruin it for the victim. And therefore, I think the community, like Steve said, I think the community has, we need to get together and have the community effort to help stem the tiger. I'm afraid, and the thing that I'm afraid is now with we're going to have more tourists, I hope we have enough officers that we can show some presence in the tourist areas so that the tourists don't get victimized. But that being said, I think the police and the prosecutors are doing a good job with the resources they have to try and stop the tide of crime rising. It's a tough task. It really is. But you have to give them the credit that they're they're meeting the task and doing a good job. Well, I want to thank you both for talking about this important subject today. And what I hear you both saying, too, is that Hawaii is a special place and our community can help out. And we can do what is Pono. We can do the right thing. And so I hope that message gets out there and we will put this out. And thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.