 Welcome back, you're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa and now to a first major conversation on the programme this morning. Really sad news as residents of Ligastate were again thrown into mourning following the news of yet another building collapse on Saturday afternoon in the Serbeb of Yaba. It took the combined team of officials of the IJRS National Emergency Management Agency, the Ligastate Emergency Management Agency, the Nitro Police Force and the Fire Service about 24 hours to get to the bottom of a rubble of a three-story building and on Sunday evening a body of a student on industrial training was recovered from that rubble, raising the death toll to five. The Zonal Co-ordinator Southwest of the National Emergency Management Agency, Mr Ibrahe Mifarin-Loye confirmed the development of newsmen just as a rescue and recovery operation was about to be concluded and we're told having rescued two persons and recovered four bodies, relatives of the IT student simply identified as Damola had informed the emergency rescue team that their son reported to duty the day the building collapsed and was yet to be found. Mifarin-Loye said the mother of Damola fainted when one of his relatives identified the body to be his. Now this sad and unfortunate incident comes three months after the collapse of a high-rise block of luxury flats under construction at the Kui area of Ligastate on the 1st of November 2021 which claimed the lives of 46 persons and of which a coroner's inquest is ongoing. Well joining us now to analyze this and look at this unfortunate development is architect David Maje Kodumuhi is the chairman of the Nigerian Institute of Architects, Ligastate chapter. Glad to have you on the program. I'm satisfied you have 14 seconds. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. Good morning. It's yet another unfortunate one. What is the Ligastate experience recurring incidents of building collapse? Yeah. Thank you very much. Today we've been advocating, when we say we've been advocating quite a number of the professionals in the built environment have been advocating for the right thing to be done. Unfortunately this is another one. Now you made mention of the one that happened at Gerald Road in November. Now what are we waiting for? It's almost how many months ago? Two months, three months ago? A coroner was set up, an investigative panel was set up headed by a renowned professional in the built industry. Where is the result? Where is the white paper? I can personally speak, I mean for myself I've been involved in so many reports, making a submission on building collapse as far back as almost two decades. But up to today no white paper. So what are we talking about? Now someone was calling me last night and said yes, oh you need to make a statement. How many times have we made a statement? How many times have the government hacked on the statement? Now I was at the site, not more than 30 minutes when the thing happened because my office was just less than a kilometer away from it. I was there from about, was it four o'clock till about eight o'clock in the night. Yesterday I was there too. Now I asked myself a question, what is happening? Who is to be blamed? Now we have to wait for the investigation to be done. Many investigation has been done on many building collapse and today was the result. We don't have a white paper on this, we don't have any publication to say this is one is brought to book or this is the cost of it. So you're looking at it, yes we know that an investigation will be conducted. But as an architect what would you say would probably be the cost of this collapse building, especially the recent one that happened in Yabba? Yes, now being at the site I could see some structural defect. And the hollow block Waferslab was used and then the reinforcement in between the Waferslab is less. I mean you could see that is seen, you know it's not the matter of talking. Now and if you see the way the building has collapsed as well, maybe there's something wrong on, so when the investigation is done, I mean mainly looking at it is a structural defect. And then looking around or even people talking and saying, oh there are about 11 buildings or 10 buildings around this area that looks like this, you know and also even at the site you hear, oh yes we saw the deflection in the slab, why don't you talk? Maybe they talk, but why hasn't the government acted on this? Yes, it was also said the building was sealed. Why was the building sealed? Is it for structural defect? I think it's high time we're in the world of Sorosoke. Yes, let's know why the building was sealed. And then why does the contractor or the developer, you know, went back to continue the building when the building has been sealed? So that's a question to be asked. Two, also looking at the system as well, I don't think the government has enough manpower or the resources. Now I've worked abroad and we see the way it's practiced. You find out that okay they go to seal a building for reason, maybe structural defect, there has to be a follow up. We've advocated to the government to outsource this. There's so many experienced professionals in the built industry. Most especially in Lagos because if you were to talk about the number of architects in Nigeria, the majority of them are in Lagos. If you had to talk of a number of engineers in Nigeria, Lagos has the highest in all the professionals in the built environment. But at the same time, I believe the government still needs to do more. The last time when one of Gerald would happen, I was on the head with so many TV house. We're advocating for the National Building Code. 1986, it was done by the professional bodies. 2006 was when it was signed, that's 20 years after. As I'm talking to you now, the enabling law is not out. What does the National Building Code says? The minimal requirement in terms of materials, in terms of quality, who is monitoring this? You're saying that there's no law right now on governing... The enabling law for the National Building Code has not been done. Now you're talking of Yaba. Now when you domesticate the National Building Code, then the likes of regions or states will have, when it's domesticated, will have their building regulation. In England, when you want to do any development, after getting your planning permit, you apply for your building approval. And you find the government monitoring the building or the site every week, if not every week, every two weeks, because there are stages that you have to get certification for. Yes, we have the Building Control Agency in Lagos. They started. Are you with me? Because in this world, everything is digitalized now. And you have stages. But where is digitalized? You can always click on your computer and find the present situation report. I can authoritatively tell you that at least the NIA has been advocated for even e-submission. I, for one, have been in the team. I can mention almost about three or four commissioners in Lagos state. And he's submission, why haven't we got it today? And all what we're saying is just on your palm. You can find out the situation report like this particular building. You will have put it on that apps. You know who the architect, who the engineer is, and put it to the government. And with the app or whatever, they will act immediately on it. So my take on this one, investigation will be done. But seeing it, you know that there's a structural defect. But at the same time, I think the government, I'm sorry, you know, it's the same thing we say every day. Architect, if this building was sealed off by the authorities, I don't know which of the authorities it was. Because these days, everybody wants to seal something off. It could be local government. I don't know if it was done by Lagos State Building Control Authority. How are people, human beings, able to access a building that has been sealed off for work, for what activities? Thank you very much. It differs. On some building sites, you have the hoarding. And the moment either, you see, one thing is, when they said it's sold off all, we know about sold off all. What is visible to us is that red mark, to be honest. And in some cases, you find where there's a hoarding or there's a gate. A chain, a padlock is, you know. So if you break it, that means you've committed a crime. But a place where you don't have much hoarding or you don't have any hoarding on site and you mark and it's still accessible. Yes? It may be also down to the abuse of this red mark, you know. The red mark has become a sign, you know, some signifier of, you know, translated to middle, come and see us and settle us, you know. So people would say, well, let's just continue. We'll settle them later, you know. And it happens across the country. You know, local governments or state building agencies would just go and just mark X and all they want is money. So people, you know, take that as, okay, we'll settle them later. Let's just continue what we're doing, you know. Because the genuineness and the power behind that X, that red mark, it's lost its value. It's bad. Even the rumors has it that the house was marked twice. Thank you. If the house has been marked twice, I mean, if for the reason of structural defect that it was marked, fine. Immediately within 24 hours or 48 hours, get your equipment in and then break it. When you know the people's lives are in danger. Now, if it's been marked twice, now like you said, the corruption side is there, there's an attitudinal problem. Man, no man. You know, whether you want to avoid or you want to settle or you want to make sure, I mean, you meet up with the requirement. I mean, before it was sealed up, are you with me? There must have been a contravention notice. After the contravention notice, there must have been a stop-work notice. After the stop-work notice, maybe a demolition notice. Are you with me? And even where there is no demolition notice, I mean, we had it now that he's been marked twice. Why was he marked twice? That question needs to be answered, you know. And if it's marked either for not meeting the requirement, I mean, maybe the approval requirement, let's know. If it's marked for structural defect, please let's know. And then if it's that, the government have the power, to take up the site with immediate effect because people's lives are in danger and look at the result of it. Yes, because that's where the demolition notice comes in. Why don't we have, is it impossible to have states create or enact their own building codes? Definitely. See, when you talk about development control, now we have three tiers of it. You have the federal government, the state and the local. But as you know, the state is in charge of the development control in their state. Is it by law or yes? By law. Now, legal states took the bull by the hand and it's still the only state today that reviewed their development control law, of which I was a party to the policy making to review this law, which was reviewed in 2010. Though the work started from 2008. As I'm speaking to you today, at least they have the latest one of 2019. And ideally, development control laws supposed to be reviewed, if not every four years, at least, if not every three years, maybe every four years, because you update with the system, with the technology. Yes, legal state has done well. I mean, the development control law that we use in legal state today is dated back to 2019, whereas other states are still using the one of the 1980s. Some don't even have. No, they do have. Oh, really? Okay, because I mean, your colleagues in River State would say they don't have a building code and nothing. Yes, you know, yes, fine. I can say the national building code exists among the professionals in the built industry. But like I said, there is no enabling law. So where there is no enabling law, that means it doesn't exist. But states can go ahead and do what legal states do. That's what we're advocating with the legal state now. I mean, if they've taken the bull by the on to review their development control, you don't need to wait for the national. I mean, we're talking of the enabling law. Who makes the enabling law? It's the national assembly. What's the benefit and the purpose of this building control law in legal state? Now, the benefit, it clearly states, like I said, the minimal requirement, the minimum requirement for the materials to be used, for the label to be used, the quantity, and then you'll be able to monitor and for all other elements in the building. Now you go into some houses. You're climbing the stairs. The moment you climb one that with a low rise, the next you see another one. I mean, this is a part of the building regulation. It clearly states, I mean, we're coming into the studio now. We don't know whether the walls are fire-rated. You don't know whether the doors are fire-rated. All this is well-spelled out. So if we have all these things, why are we still seeing these tragedies? You won't see these tragedies, my dear brother, because it's clearly stated. For this column or for this lab to meet this requirement, certain number of amine, the materials must have been tested. Are you with me? And make sure that they meet the requirement. Okay, let me just give you a good example. You want to cast a slab. The moment you mix the concrete, you put up just about one cube boxes where you have four of the concrete you've mixed, and you send it to the laboratory. The first of the four is tested seven days. The second is tested 14 days. The third is tested 21 days. And the fourth one is tested at the 28 days. And that will have told you the strength of the concrete you're using. And then you get a certificate. The same thing with your iron rod. Now, they will have tested the iron rod, the quality of it, the strength, and to know that, oh, this is not going to corrode easily because even the sand you're using need to be tested. The cement you're using need to be tested because some of this sand sometimes is taken from the lagoon or from the ocean and it has a high salt content. So it brings me now to the question because some people say that their procedures that need to be met before work actually commends on site. And some say you need the salt testing, architectural design, mechanical design, electronic design, and structural design. And some people say that for most of the buildings that have collapsed in Lagos and amongst others, of course we're staying in Lagos now, and it's that the developers ignored the first, which is actually the soil texture. But do you think that that's the case right now with the Yabba? Do you think that that's the case with the collapsed building at Yabba? And is that usually the case if one of this procedure has been ignored, does it mean that everything will go down? Some people who argue for this say that usually if the first is ignored, then you can have it been faulted at all levels. Yes, now let me go back to the National Building Code. The National Building Code is actually into four parts. Pre-design, design, construction, and post-construction. What needs to be done at the pre-design? First and foremost, you need to do a soil test to know the strength of the soil that you want to build on. That would determine what type of foundation you have to put. Now that area you might think is a solid ground, but there's a lot of a swampy area. Along, when you're going to University of Lagos, both left and right is more of a swampy area. You'll find there's been a lot of development. Now if the soil test has been done, maybe you won't have had, I mean, I can't say whether it's done or not. Now it's from the soil test, apart from the architect doing the design, it sits with the structural engineer to determine what type of foundation and then what goes on after. That is the sub-structure, which is a foundation, then before the superstructure, which is what you see, the columns, the walls, how many floors it's going. And it's a soil test, and the foundation you put in that would determine how many floors. Not only that, reason why we're talking of the code and the building rigs. Now, you liaise with the authority. The authority will tell you, yes, what is the density provided for this area. Now, is it one family unit or four family unit? I mean, looking at that structure, looks like six family unit, which where there's parking space on the ground floor and six flats. So that tells you six family unit. Now, is that what is stated in the government regulation for the area? Then after doing all that, you now submit to the authority, the fiscal planning authority, where the assessment will be done. And after the assessment is done, even where you have maybe some alterations to make, you go back and do the alterations. Thereafter, you get the planning permit and then you get the building approval. Now, when I said the state government has took the bull by, I'm talking of the less state, legal state government has taken the bull by the on. It was from this law that the development control were divided into three parts, where we have the legal state fiscal planning authority, which handles the planning permit. And you have the legal state building control agency, which deals with the building approval. Then you have the legal state urban renewal agency, who looks at the whole master plan to know whether this area needs to be regenerated or, so the things are in place, but negligence, most especially by who we have our so-called developers who try to cut corner, pound foolish, penny wise. But I mean, if you have, you have these laws. Laws are made to be broken, you know. We can't say because we have criminals roaming the streets breaking the law, we allow them to break the law. And there's a place of oversight or regulation or the regulator. And so with the beautiful setup of the legal state, building, development control law, set up these three aspects of the urban aspect, the building control aspect and the planning. Why are we still having people being negligent or cutting corners and we have buildings collapsing? Like we had in the Koi, we have in Yaba, in legal state. I've been out of legal state before now. And one thing I would always notice is that we keep hearing stories of collapsed buildings in legal state. Yeah. Thank you very much. There are a lot of factors or a lot of things to be done. Number one is the awareness. Now when we talk of awareness, you need to come down to the grassroots. Like I advocate for one thing, you know. I mean, I'm of Yoruba tribe, you know, even regardless of being mixed race. Now you want to talk to a bricklayer or a welder. He doesn't understand English, but you look at the four stages I mentioned in the National Building Court. We said pre-design, design, construction, after construction. Now, what does pre-design mean? You can say the foundation before you start. Which in Yoruba, you can say equally. I don't know. I've tried to translate it to all the four languages, but when you make the capital everyone aware of this, the awareness, that's number one. Number two, as the government got the resources, you know, where it needs to be outsourced. Number three, attitude to the problem. Resources to monitor. To monitor, yes. That is to the professional bodies in the built environment. Now, the attitude to the problem of our people, which you mentioned. Now, we talked of many investigation has been done on building collapse. If we are to date back to 19, I mean, the one I've been involved with, maybe from 1998, sorry, 2008 or 2003, are you with me? We have over 20. Now, have you brought out any white paper on this? And when you bring out the white paper, you publish it, I mean, and bring the people involved to books, whether they are dead or they are alive. When you start bringing people to books or, you know, punishing them for it, others will be. Now that are, let me see you, I can say, do I know the governor or do I know the cabins here or do I know one senator? But even that senator or that whoever wants to speak. I give a good example, the traffic one last month. I mean, I've been caught before. And even where I thought, oh, I know someone, the ticket is done immediately. And you make payment. And, you know, so you can imagine if that can be done on the last month's side. I don't know the reason why it cannot be done on the other MTAs, other agency. So let's bring the people of the past, you know, to books, penalize them, punish them so that that will serve as a deterrent. Thank you to others. That's just. Okay, okay. So people are being led of the hook easily. It means government is not being hired and it's really not living up to its responsibility. It's interesting you talk about outsourcing monitoring of building construction in Lagos state and in Nigeria as a whole. Because even for the government's projects, the ones that are in the budget every single year, you know, we see things like budget for monitoring. And this budget for monitoring is going to a private company. You know, maybe a road is being built, for instance, East West Road. The budget for monitoring this project went to a private company, you know, that makes sure that everything was in line with what was on paper and all that. So government even outsources monitoring of its own projects to the private sector. So it's strange to hear that, you know, they can't, if not outsource them. You think that will be easy to push through, to see that being done. The government says we are not big enough to do this. It's too much. Let's allow private hands coming. Right, thank you very much. Yes, like what you've said now, apply mainly to the road construction, from my knowledge. Now, a good example is Lagos State. There are over 48,000 construction sites in the entire Lagos State. I'm talking of the Ikeja Badagri, Ikeba, Lagos Island, you know, and Ikorodu. There are over 48,000 construction sites. Now, how many people do we have to monitor 48,000 construction sites? Let's get the record of the statistics out. I don't think they have up to 100 registered or fully architect in the entire Lagos State MDAs. Talk less of the engineers or talk less of the other professionals. Now, in the best global practice, even in Singapore, in America, in UK, where you think everything is in place, they still out source. Now, in one of the countries, they call them accredited checkers. We've made all these recommendations. For years now. For years, you know, we have what they call taught party certifier. You know, we have accredited inspectors. Every country has a kind of a nomenclature or whatever they give. And you find out that I might be, I'm an architect. Now, practicing in UK. I might not even touch the drainboard or do any design for some years. All I'm doing, I'm an agent to the government monitoring. So if you are the one that design and she is the owner now, I don't have anything to do with the two of you, but I act on behalf of the government to monitor and the distant bestowed on me that if I do anything wrong, I'll be jailed for it. So the one important thing is to have that professional indemnity insurance. Now, this is where the insurance company comes in, which they're not friendly at all. Are you with me? Because I've been involved in so many projects that you want to get a professional indemnity insurance, you have to go abroad. Because the insurance company wants to get a lump sum. One time, actually, the Lagos State Chapter is having a seminar this month where we're inviting the president of the insurance broker to come and let's talk about this and let's see the way out. Now, because when you look at this collapse in Yaba, definitely if there's a professional indemnity insurance in place, the structural engineer or the whatever will go at least will have peace because he might have instructed the developer that, sir, this is not right. I mean, we heard about the one in Gerald Road where the engineer has to pull out. So there's so many things that need to be put in place. Okay, so maybe we need to talk about some of them. You have talked about the fact that we don't seem to have enabling laws or do the laws exist? The national building code needs to be domesticated. And so do you think that that solves the problem or is it the problem of creating awareness? Because most times with our laws, like we already know, you find the issue of implementation a big deal. So you have the laws. So even if you have the domestication of this national building code now, what happens with implementation, monitoring and ensuring that people are compliant to it. So there's a lot of it, but how do we address it? What's the way forward? I mean, we're talking about a sustainable solution at this point. Yes, I gave an example of the LASMA, the Traffic Management in Lagos. I mean, you look at what it was maybe about one and a half decades ago. But when we had BRF and all the other governors or from BRF type, there was enforcement. Now, if we're to have the enabling law, the reason why all these are getting away with this is stated where you, you know, so it gets away with murder because it can buy anything, it can do anything, but where you have the regulation in place and they know that this is a penalty. Now, this has dated back to so many years, the laws of Amurabi, he who killed by sword, who surely died by sword. So the moment you have found guilty for putting people's life in danger or you've killed someone, definitely you have to be killed as well. I just give on a lighter note, how do my surname came to be Magyakodumi? Are you with me? My great-great-grandfather has horses and maybe due to the carelessness of one of the servants cleaning the house. The horse kicked back and killed one of his daughter. So his friend, we are now telling him, please forgive him, don't let it pain you and I can tell you vividly that's how Magyakodumi came in. The laws has been there for years. So if we have this enabling law and they know that this is a penalty for this, are you with me? Then the enforcement will come in naturally. So probably, interestingly, in the case- But the penalty is, it's not like we don't know, I mean, we begin to cite some of the issues. For instance, let's maybe we digress a bit, to say security issues. We have killings that are going on in this country. You look at the Northern part of the country, whether they call themselves the bandits or they're just random peasants, people are killing and the criminal code talks about mother killing. It's a crime. But how come you still have these peasants moving around freely? It's not like we don't know what the penalty says about you committing a- That's why you have a system. So whatever the case is, be it an aggravance with one tribe or the other, you have a law, you have a system, you have a government and that's why things should be addressed. But you don't see people being arrested. How many peasants are- I mean, over time, you just find people being emboldened. And so it feels like this is trickling down to every sector, including the building sector. And that's why we constantly, so even if we say we don't have sufficient laws to actually guide the activities, but the little that we have, how efficient have we been with it? So it's a concern. Thank you very much. Unfortunately, the country is in a rut. I can say that the country is in a rut because we are the ones that voted these politicians. And they are there to carry out this. Now, you mentioned the Bandit, we mentioned Bukwara, you mentioned, you know, all these, maybe Boku or Igbo, I don't know, all these fighters. And then for one reason or the others, when it has been established, it's proved that, yes, this group or this individual, but you know the country where we're in, and the election is coming up again, and they will switch talk-offs. Those that they will sell their soul will sell their soul. But we're in it together. The only way we can get out of this is for you and I either to get involved in the politics, but the likes of you and I will not be encouraged. And do you have the money to waste? Because even to be in politics is money. It's expensive. It's expensive. And at the end of the day, it's still, I mean, look at the answer thing. I mean, it's been turned around, it's been, you know, all sorts of things. But it's very sad. Where we found ourselves today. But we'll continue to advocate. And it's still left to us. Election is coming. Let's shine our eyes and let's make sure we do the right thing. And you see all the prayer, these prayer, that yes, Monday prayer will be answered. But for prayer to be answered, we are the architect of our life. So we need to do the needful. Interesting. Finally, before we are done, you know, the ongoing K-E-Q-E colonizing quest is, like you said, still ongoing. And we have, you win. I don't know what your thoughts are. They have so much to give you. Is it still ongoing for the past three months? I mean, there's been about two or three different bodies. There's the investigation body, I mean, the panel set up by the government. In Abuja. No, even the legal state. Which they said they were given one month. I believe they are finished over a month ago. How long does the corona take? Will it take two, three months? I believe they've finished. So it's not that it's ongoing. Because one thing is, it's not that it's ongoing. A lot of the victims or majority of the victims affected has been buried. So is there any other post-mortem or whatever they want to do? They've done all their tests. To lower guilt then. So what are we still waiting for? You said to us, they're given one month. This is three months after. We haven't had the result. We haven't had the publication. But current seems that I think has submitted its report to the panel in Abuja. And they did said engineering deficiencies were responsible for. But is there a view, have we seen it published in the media, in the paper? Or have we had anything? Or has anyone come up to you? We have to go. We have to go. Architect, thank you very much for your time. But summary, what you're saying is that we need to have the political will. And also the vision and ideas to come up with a solution because this is too big for government to handle alone. The private sector needs to be brought in as consultants and empowered to do this on behalf of government so that they can cover the entire area. And of course, people must pay for the crimes they commit in terms of these collapsed buildings. Thank you very much. David Majekunu-Meyi is the chairman of the Nigerian Institute of Architects, Lagos State Chapter. And that's the much we're going to take on this particular issue and this topic on Plus TV Africa. We're monitoring it as the days go by on this channel. All right, that's it on the show this morning. If you missed out on any part of the conversation, it's all right to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. And do subscribe to our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa and Plus TV Africa Lifestyle. I am Messi Boko. And I'm Kofi Bartels. Thank you very much for your time. We return tomorrow. Keep watching.